Nonsense in the Chaos

#37 Praying to Trickster; Howard Gayton and the power of Mask (Pt2)

• Jolie Rose • Season 2 • Episode 37

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This week’s episode of Nonsense in the Chaos is the follow-up episode in a two-part offering, born from a rich, two-hour conversation with my dear friend and fellow fool, Howard Gayton. In this half we pull the cards and discuss the topics that the universe leads us to. 

Howard and I connected properly during a 500-mile pilgrimage from London (or, as Howard rightly points out, Henley) to COP26 in Glasgow—though in truth, we stopped walking in Edinburgh.

Howard Gayton has worked for over thirty years as a theatre director, performer, and teacher specialising in Commedia dell'Arte and other forms of mask theatre, as well as puppetry, foolery and folk drama. His work is inspired by all manner of mythic tricksters, zanni figures and sacred clowns, as well as by the use of masks in drama and sacred rituals the world over.

In this deliciously layered chat, we explore the Trickster archetype through the lens of fooling, drawing on the historical threads of Commedia dell’Arte and the slapstick world of Punch and Judy. I could have talked to Howard forever—and very nearly did. I hope you enjoy our creative musings.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

Please consider supporting me through patreon.com/JolieRose and like, follow, and review wherever you get your podcasts from. Share about Nonsense in the Chaos far and wide! The more people who hear about the podcast the better.

Thank you for all your support -x-

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jaylee Rose. This week we are going to head back to the conversation that I was having with Howard, in this half we are pulling the cards, but you'll see that we still go off into more. Deep conversations about fooling and what, what it means to be a fool I love talking to Howard because we go really deep. And so I think this is a fantastic chat and worth sharing all of it with you. can probably hear from my voice and from the quality of the recording that I'm doing this slightly on the hoof today. I've been putting on the Beltane Festival over the weekend and had to do a lot of shouting over torrential rain. It was a real shame that it rained so hard on the day, but we did well and we had a great weekend. It was so much fun. It's been one of the toughest weeks, weeks of my life, but it's been amazing. And so I'm a bit broken and I'm not able to be quite as set up in the recording studio as I'd like to be. So, without forever deal, I'm gonna put us back to Howard, where it's a much better quality recording than this. So thank you ever so much, and I'll see you on the other side.

Jolie:

I'm gonna do the cards So we'll do three cards. And this is setting the the chaos of the universe. Choose from us, right. So I'm gonna go like that and you tell me when to stop.

Howard:

I stop there. Yeah, stop. Yeah.

Jolie:

Got you.

Howard:

Yeah, that one. Yeah.

Jolie:

Okay. This is defeat, which is

Howard:

Oh God.

Jolie:

of swords.

Howard:

Wow.

Jolie:

it's not a reading, it's just what does

Howard:

No,

Jolie:

to you? What does defeat mean to you?

Howard:

I think, well, I think what it means to me at the moment, what it speaks to me is that I, I, it's easy for me to go into that. I've just been thinking about this today, is how, how easy is it to, to be defeated, to give up. And I, I know that I can be prone to that, but I have the other side of that, which is this, this thing of like, well, I'm not going, I'm not gonna give up. You know, like the pilgrimage. You wake up four weeks in and you're knackered and it's raining, and you, your feet ache. And you could say, I'm not gonna carry on. Which is in a sense, defeat be defeated by something, but. To just, to just go, well, okay, but I'm gonna carry on sort of past that kind of defeat. And I think that is something for me that is, is kind of, you talk about the, the sort of archetypes of self that I, I balance those two partly'cause I'm bipolar, so I have this and my bipolar is sadly in some ways more the depression than the mania. I do have a mania side, but I have quite in the past, been much more depressed. And I used to have this image, what I have always done is kind of like, there's always been a point in the depression where you, you've got a choice. You either go, well that's it, I'm fucked, and that's it. And then which you can do, but then that's then what? Or you go, oh, right, well okay then now, now that doesn't really matter. So I just, you just, so I used to have this image of a cork going down. There's some point when the cork, when you push it down, it goes, whoa. And goes up the other way. And that's, that for me is that creative thing. Taking that creativity out of that, that finding, which isn't to, which isn't to ignore all the stuff that's been there.'cause that's, that is, I mean it's like in fooling isn't it? The, the, the juices in the secret sacred scar and scared it's in the juice of theater is in tho those, those bits that, that are hard, that kind of defeat us. Yeah. I think that's what it feels like. It's saying to me.

Jolie:

Yeah. I love that. Thank you. That's beautiful. Yeah, it's, it's very hard at the moment to not feel defeated by everything, and it's exhausting and it does this thing of time going faster. I feel like since we came out of lockdown, it's

Howard:

Yeah,

Jolie:

and I do feel I'm, I'm, I'm sick of it and moved to this island thinking I was gonna have a quiet life. And it's not, it's just as busy or it's busier. I feel busier here than I did in the uk,

Howard:

I, I honestly can't imagine what it's like living in a city at the moment.'cause I live out, you know, as you know, on the edge of Dartmore, it feels like life is a boom boom. And it's great. It's good. It's partly'cause I'm doing loads of stuff, but it's, there's like every, every ta turn around and go, oh, I've gotta do that now. I've gotta do that now. And I can't imagine what it's like being in a city where, where it's already hyper.

Jolie:

already,

Howard:

But yeah, I,

Jolie:

dealing with this and you've got sirens and you've got like,

Howard:

yeah,

Jolie:

nonstop people and all their energy. Yeah. Well, you've got a really strong community in Chadfield as well, haven't you?

Howard:

I mean, sort of it is, I, I, I don't engage with it all, all the time, just'cause I can't. Terry does a lot more than me. But yeah, there's so much going on. It sounds a bit, it's, it's a bit like you talk about with Start, where we've got all these different people all getting on. All, all types. And we have, I think we're quite lucky'cause I think we often have people who've sort of retired early from the city moving down and they have quite a lot of money and skills and they decide to organize stuff. So they're not, they're doing exactly what in a sense, you know, do you remember the big society that Cameron talked about? It was like, yeah. Big, which is great. It works in Cha Ford because you've got lots of people who've got the time and the money to it doesn't work if you're, if you're struggling to actually exist. So, you know, that's ridiculous. When, when it can work. And that's, I mean, that seems to me that's what we ought to be aiming for everywhere is just to give some places need, need to be given resources to be able to do this, which is this thing of everybody pitching in, everybody being able to, you know, you organizing festivals, everybody coming along to it and having that thing that brings society together brings us all together so that we are sharing experiences and community experiences. So music days here, there, there's film festival, book festivals. There's in Morton Hamstead, there's Conval, there's just, there's this sense that we are trying to be community

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Howard:

and there's lots of different bits of community and they all kinda speak to each other. And it's great when it works and it, it can work. You know, there's proof of that that I think it needs to be in smaller, it works in smaller things, but, you know, cities do and used to, I lived for a while when I was younger in Brixton with my theater partner Jeff, in a, there's like gay community there. And that was a community in Brixton. There was this whole road that was like a community. They, they supported each other. They, you know, helped each other financially sometimes by, you know, helping jobs go round. They helped each other with emotional support when things were sort of hard in, in, in that, you know, before sort of the, the labor government got in and changed all the, all the rules around, you know, clause 28 and all that kind nonsense. So the,

Jolie:

So

Howard:

you, you can get'em, you used to get'em in London in some of the old neighborhoods as well, like in the East end and that, that, so it's that community, isn't it? Thing of, I, I don't always know everybody in town, but I know what they look like, so I always say hello to them if I'm on my way and they know, you know, I, I know the faces, so there's a sense that I know my neighbors'cause I'll say hello to them

Jolie:

It

Howard:

and that,

Jolie:

I love it.'cause Brighton was a real community as well. It was a city

Howard:

yeah.

Jolie:

city. It feels like we're all in the same gang. I've lived in London in Lewisham, which had a community and black heath, which had a community. yeah, I do think we do, we do find it. And we do make it. It's, it is something that that the powers that be do wanna destroy because people are more inherently socialists the more community you are.

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

got

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

who are complete libertine and who are real Tories, but we look after each other here. And so there is actually an, an element of social care and social, you know, socialism because we're taking care of each other. We're But yeah, it's in a slight ho way that we are doing it here. There isn't the power structures like forcing it, it's just us doing it, our throwing backs. But people are so kind, like even neighbors that you might argue with or not get on with, if they knew you were ill or there was some reason why you couldn't get outta the house, they'd bring you food, they'd bring you things, you know, they'd look

Howard:

Right

Jolie:

So it just feels like a dysfunctional family. Like we're all arguing constantly. But you don't like pick on my, you know, pick on. Yeah. Yeah. No one start on us.

Howard:

fool.

Jolie:

Yeah, exactly. She's awful. I love it. It is magical. But yeah, like I say, it's a full-time play. right. Let's do another

Howard:

Right. I'm gonna go for the very front one

Jolie:

this

Howard:

this end.

Jolie:

one,

Howard:

The other one. That one. Yeah.

Jolie:

Uhhuh. It's the hanged man.

Howard:

Oh, the hang man. Ah, interesting.

Jolie:

So

Howard:

Oh, there's so much.

Jolie:

mean to you? He's sort of

Howard:

Well that is,

Jolie:

fool is stepping off the cliff into the unknown in a

Howard:

yeah. It's also because he comes from, from, you know, the, the oh, what's his name? He hung for Odin, wasn't it? Who hung upside down for

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

Yeah. That I think for me, the hanged man is, it, is that upside down shamanic initiation.

Jolie:

Yeah,

Howard:

It's

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

The, and you know, it is interesting you say your initiation into that was nearly dying. So there's so many stories. The mythical stories are, are of shaman who, who go out and they get their skin peed off them and then their bones destroyed. They, you know, that the, the, the mythic stories of shaman are that they get destroyed. Oh, like Jesus,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Howard:

bones dead and then come back together. That there's always a sense of death and going into the underworld and being, look you said right at the start of this thing that coming out from the underworld and being the ones that go, how the hell did you do that? And I go, well, I'll tell you. This is what I did. And I think that, that there is an element. I actually had, I, very early on, I, I was quite intrigued by that idea of the, the sort of the, the artist that was. You know, like the poets who are all depressed and everything's terrible and their life's terrible and they bring their art out of that. And I think there's something in that, but there's also, I think, yeah, there's other times where you think, oh, you don't need that. But, but to go through some of those processes of being broke, broken down, I think first of all, it, it gives you more empathy. And empathy is actually a thing upon which the Western civilization is based, is what life's based on. So it gives you empathy because you, under you, you, you have, you understand, you've been there somewhere before and there seems to be something like almost spiritually breaking down. So you talk about ayahuasca and I had a, when the first year I went out to Arizona, I was taken to a peyote ceremony, medicine ceremony. It's completely a whole night with peyote, not dancing, sitting on the floor around the fire people singing and praying and, and it's quite an endurance thing. And a lot of the, the Native American sermon is a very endurance heavy.

Jolie:

Mm. Mm-hmm.

Howard:

So Terry's did a lot of vision quests. I did one when I came back over, she did them out in Arizona, placed out in the desert. Four days, no, not even water. Whereas the ones I did here, we have water, no food, no water. And she said the, the, the people. Like West Westerners would come to the medicine and say, oh, well I, I dunno if I could do four days, can I do two days? And he'd say, well, you can, but you're not gonna, you're not going to get to where you need to go. And they'd say, why? And he'd say, because it,'cause it takes four days to go to the spirit world. So you can do three days, but you're not gonna get to the spirit world because you have to, you know, you have to be breaking down process. And in that breaking down, I think it does link into falling. You know, the circle plays a, a bit like that. So breaking of that e, that thing that keeps us attached to being us for that time. You can reconstruct, but you need to better go beyond that. And for some of us, it's really hard because we've been so programmed into that. For me, I get it in masks. That mask day, the very first time I got on a mask, it's like suddenly there's this other world that exists and I want to know more about that. I want to know more about that archetype of world. And that, so that hangman, I think is that, that what, no, the pilgrimage, what, what did it do to us to get up to cop to do that? It's, it's is transformative.'cause you've, you have been broken down and then you have to put

Jolie:

we, we did have such a strong archetypal presence at Cop, like it was

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

the presence that we had. I remember one point where we were crossing the street and we were in our garb. I had my sheep skull on a stick, and we were crossing the street and there was two indigenous leaders walking across the other way in their traditional clothes. And they just walked past and just nodded, nodded at us, like just a complete, like, oh.

Howard:

Because that energy's in there, isn't it?

Jolie:

Yeah. We had the presence of the, the land in us, and yeah, we'd been broken down. And it, it, when I do ayahuasca, when I talk about the sphincter, the first day is always me tussling with my ego and trying to get free of it, trying to let go of it. And then there is this moment where it does feel like you slip through the egg timer it feels like a, a mini death. I think like when you die, you will have to capitulate and surrender in that same way. And there's this moment where you then flop through, and then you are, you're there. And it just, it's so once you're there, it's like, oh, why was that so difficult?

Howard:

Yeah. Well, I do, yeah.

Jolie:

and it's so nice

Howard:

I had,

Jolie:

But it's that feeling of going through it. It's just hell,

Howard:

I think I had that

Jolie:

a death.

Howard:

so much in, in, in that first pilgrimage. I think I was struggling a lot. But when, when I did my one in Santiago, I, I set out by cycling up route the Napoleonic route, cross Pyrenees. And I, I did it'cause my friend, a friend had done it before and I thought he would've gone up that route. He didn't, he went up an easy one'cause he, he's not an idiot. And I went up it, I was at the top of the Pyrenees with my bike having basically pushed this bike with the stuff like that and suddenly. The night was coming down and I realized genuinely, if I don't get to the monastery in Ron VAAs, I'm gonna die because it's, fuck, it's really cold now. And I had to, on this bike dirt track that I was hardly able to see. I had to just not put my brakes on and trust. I wasn't gonna hit a rock and go off. And just as the sun was setting, I got to the monastery and that was that kind of like, whoa. That was effectively a near death experience. If I'd been five minutes later, I wouldn't have been able to see the path. I would not, I didn't have, you know, I had a tent, but I didn't have any stuff and it was really cold. It's like October. So that, that sort of breaking down, I think is a, it seems to be an important part of that shamanic process.

Jolie:

yeah,

Howard:

And it is that ego full does the same thing, the stuff that Jonathan does, I think, and other teachers are, but Jonathan particularly is like the very first, that's what I did with him. He was saying something over here, like in my face, and I turned around and I swear he was straight there. He was like, I was trying to get away from him and he, you just couldn't, you, wherever you turned, he would be there. His face kind of in your face

Jolie:

God,

Howard:

forcing you to

Jolie:

always say

Howard:

of face.

Jolie:

like, I feel like I'm, you know, there's butterflies pinned to boards. I just feel like I'm pinned to the board through my ego, and it's so painful. It's like a light saber pin going through my ego and I can't get away from it. And

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

so painful and I do love it and I also hate it.

Howard:

Yeah

Jolie:

yeah, I mean, it's invaluable and it's so hard. I haven't actually gone and done anything with him for a while. And I know I, I know that the calling is calling to me again I

Howard:

I have the same.

Jolie:

it. I need to go and have my ass kicked again. But just part of me is like, oh God, I really don't want to,

Howard:

It's hard, isn't it? It's hard,

Jolie:

I do as well. You know, I'm ready

Howard:

but I think it's ama it's, you know, it's amazing for, for if you know some people, it's very, it's very hard. I find it very hard'cause it is hard'cause it is facing that.

Jolie:

hard. Yeah.

Howard:

on the outside of that, when I came back from that circle play, I, I came back and was teaching at East 15 Comedia and I, I came back and I started just playing with the students and I, I just carried on, I just, just carried on playing. It's a warm up. And I was about an hour in, I was like, oh, I wonder how long I can keep this up for. And we just kept it up for, I, I think about two hours I went, I've actually probably should stop and do something now. But that sense of just freedom, of just like, well, I can just do this now because I've, I've had this experience and now this is, this is nothing. This is, and I, I kind of realize a bit for me now when I teach, I'm, I'm actually performing in many ways. I mean,

Jolie:

No,

Howard:

that's. It's so, it's three hour performance, not, but it's immersive. So it's about them. It's not about me, but I'm there just as this, it, this was it. To be an had, to be an, what do you say your course was, being an idiot or something,

Jolie:

a stupid, how to be a

Howard:

had to be stupid. So I feel like that part of my role is to be a stupid and to say, well, look, I'm, I'm, I'm also gonna be a stupid, so why don't we all be stupids together and see what fun it is if we're all stupids? And you know, that tends to work. It's, it's quite, quite liberating is, is, you know, the feedback I get from students is it's very liberating when somebody says, let's, why don't we all be stupid? I'm not asking you to be stupid. Let's all be stupid and I'll be stupid too. And then when, when you they realize that it's actually all right to be stu to be a stupid, it's very liberating, isn't it? You go, oh, I can, I can, I can do, I can be an idiot. You know? And, and there's a, there's a context with it and, you know, you create safe spaces. Or actually a phrase I got a lovely from a conference was someone who, who was talking about creating brave spaces, which I think is a nice concept that they, they are safe, but they're, they're

Jolie:

mm

Howard:

for you to be brave. And I love that. I think that's, that's like the next level, isn't it?'cause that's why we create safe spaces,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

to be brave.

Jolie:

Yeah, absolutely. That's amazing. that. Oh yeah. I'll keep that one in the, in the bank.

Howard:

Yeah, it's a good one, isn't I? I've, I'm using that.

If you enjoy this podcast, then please would you be able to support it by either on Paton, which is three pound a month for one tier, and it's like you saying thank you and buying me a cup of tea and a once a month. Thank you for the podcast. Or for nine pounds a month, there is the videos of the podcast, which are nice and fun to watch and a bit extra it's nice to see the video as well, and. If you aren't able to support financially, then that isn't a problem because it goes out for free anyway and someone else is paying and it means they're paying for you to get a free podcast. But what would be wonderful, and I would really appreciate if you were able to share about it and tell people about it, if you're enjoying it, then other people might do as well. And also to give it. Rating. Anywhere where you get your podcast, if you can review and like it, that would be so wonderful and I would really appreciate it. And just tell people about it, share it on social media, and, word of mouth I think is key. I'd really appreciate doing that. We have the, which fool are you? Workshops beginning at the end of May, and this is where you get to know your archetype having worked with my archetype, Venus, I honestly. It is so hard to get across how valuable this work is, but it's so valuable and it's so rich. There are all sorts of other things out there that are different archetypes that you could be working with, I'm obviously surrounded by a lot of people who are fools and tricksters and they're working with Jonathan K in the fall, and then there's the full, the tarot, A lot of people have a mixture of archetypes. Some people have a really clear, strong one, but some people are a mixture. I have three, my strongest one is Venus, but I also have ing the fertility, creativity, God, and then I've also got Heti, the Triple Goddess, there's a bit of me that seems like an old woman. There's a bit of me that seems like a mother. There's a bit of me that seems like a child and. I work with all three of them. And the Warrior as well. Is a fourth one that's almost like a wash over all of them. It's the juiciest work that I do. So if you're interested in this, then do let me know. We'll be beginning that in the end of May, and it will be for a Luna Cycle. And it's all done online, so anyone can join in with that. thank you. And on with the show.

Jolie:

I do feel like I need to dip in and do this work to challenge myself so that I can be more of, of service with what I'm doing. Because if I don't, it's easy to sit back in the teacher place, but you need to kind of put yourself on, in back in under the pin every now and then. And

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

I know I'm due a pin I need to go and

Howard:

Yeah. I know it. In whatever that is. There's lots of different sort of ways, isn't there? I mean, Jonathan is definitely one.

Jolie:

it doesn't have to be with Jonathan. I did do it recently with singing'cause I have a real with my singing. And I recently did a singing weekend with someone who's archetypally working with it. She's amazing. Nessie Gomez. And yeah, cried my eyes out. I mean, that was a real opening and it did feel like a real opening for my throat and for my throat chakra and everything. And it was incredible. And that's the thing I love about this is there are many roads to the same city. And it doesn't have to be, I I it is when people say this is the only way. It's like, that's very suspicious. It's not the only way. And, there are lots of, and it's the same with the fooling. I've met people who with Frankie a very different type of fooling, but there's pros and cons to that as well. Things that I, I feel like they're freer. they're freer performers. Whereas I feel like we are much more like, hmm, there's a bit more kind of, I dunno almost cleric ness. Even though Jonathan's not at all cleric, but there's something

Howard:

Yeah, I know. Yeah.

Jolie:

the Frankie falling lineage.

Howard:

I've, I've Had few workshops with some of her. I haven't yet met her, unfortunately. But hope, I hope I will with this. But I've worked with some of her students and it is, it is a different, but it is a different way to, to this thing we're trying to get to, isn't it? Which is kind of other and freeing of the imagination, I think is, is an important thing, isn't it? I mean, certainly in Jonathan's work, it's about this inner world that is full. And there's a lovely song that I, I start, there's an xtc song called world Wrapped in Gray, and it talks about this beautiful song. This, this is xt C is sort of banned from the eighties. And it says let's somehow do it today. Don't let the soulless ones give you a world wrapped in gray

Jolie:

Oh

Howard:

balloons and stream decorate the inside of your head. It seems like a real fall song to me.'cause it's like balloons and streamers decorate the inside of your head, this imagination that we all have and they are something, whatever it is, whether it's them or you know, demi, whatever it is, there is something that tries to sell you this gray,

Jolie:

Oh, big time.

Howard:

defeat. You can't do it. Right, exactly. And

Jolie:

Yeah. I, it is. And it's not anyone individually, it's just a general mass of monoculture. Just,

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

a beige monoculture of like, meh.

Howard:

So when we, when we come to it, this thing, this chaos thing, so I decided on, on something else, but one of the things I was gonna suggest was like listening to every day, listen to a classic album, but listen to it.'cause you know, like these days, I, I do that, I just have stuff on play on a stream'cause it's easier and I don't always have access to a CD player. But do you remember when you used to put a new album on and give it time and listen to the,

Jolie:

I'm

Howard:

the,

Jolie:

all.

Howard:

like Pink, I listen to Pink Floyd and you just listen to the artistry that there was artists put into it and the way that they would, they would like put drums in a bathroom so they get specific sound. And now it's just, well, we press a button. I, we did. That's, that feels to me like that's, you know, the digital world, it has these wonderful things like we're able to talk and do this, but it's also stripping us of so much of, of connection and you know, and with AI and stuff, it's, it's, it's, there are those risks and I, I do wonder whether there, I, I think the other thing is that there will be possibly, and I hope this reaction to that, where people will come back and want real things. You want theater'cause you want to be together rather than. Television that you want.

Jolie:

gonna end up a split with actually very like actually split in terms of evolution. So there'll be people who'll be chipped and we'll be tech

Howard:

Yeah, yeah.

Jolie:

and will basically become kind of, AI e

Howard:

Robots.

Jolie:

and then there'll be people who are nature based and are, are going the other way. Interesting. Yeah.

Howard:

And whether that, whether that going that way opens up some of, some of more of our spiritual

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

things.

Jolie:

But

Howard:

Like, like,

Jolie:

like completely screwed over by the, the people and the

Howard:

well,

Jolie:

stuff, because obviously

Howard:

maybe

Jolie:

better weapons than us

Howard:

Yeah. Well, okay. That's the, yeah,

Jolie:

If they let us be

Howard:

yeah, exactly. We'll entertain them. That's the thing. Don't me. I'll, I'll make it laugh.

Jolie:

we'll be there full. That is what we'll be, be like, let us live.

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

Cool. So we'll do the last card.

Howard:

Okay. So let's go the opposite then. So that one right at the, the other side. The front one? Yeah.

Jolie:

So this

Howard:

What is that?

Jolie:

the Prince of Swords. So this

Howard:

Ooh.

Jolie:

might. This is kind of fighting the mind and the intellect,

Howard:

Ooh.

Jolie:

and it is the outer world. It's fighting all of the, the chaos. Well,

Howard:

Wow.

Jolie:

the noise really

Howard:

So it's, it's, it's the idea of fighting the noise, like actually trying to.

Jolie:

he's at battle, doesn't he? So

Howard:

Yeah, it does.

Jolie:

swords is the intellect. It's

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

So it is about the mind and that and feels like him fighting the the, the great distractor is what Jonathan K called it, didn't he? The great distractor.

Howard:

The mind. Yeah. It's a monkey mind, isn't it? I, I am.

Jolie:

not just the monkey mind, but also what you were saying about people trying to steal attention, you know, with

Howard:

Oh, yeah, yeah, exactly. Like what focus is. Yeah.

Jolie:

distractor.

Howard:

we place our attention. And I'm really bad at this at the moment. I'm, I'm going through a real, trying to, having to consciously say, actually it's,'cause it is a battle for consciousness, I think. And attention is that.

Jolie:

Exactly.

Howard:

And so the, I need, I would like to start placing my attention more carefully, more thought through. I, I, I'm aware, I'm aware, like, so coming back to that with the fall, that it's really, it's impossible to define fall really.'cause the whole point of the fall is if you define it and you do that thing of like pin it, then it, it appears behind you and it goes, ah, it's, but I'm not that anymore because it's literally not that. And I'm very aware, I think my PhD is gonna start probably with a quote from the da, Hey Ching, which says, you know, the dao, the Dao that you call the Dao isn't the Dao.'cause if you, once you define it, it can no longer be in. And I'm very aware that in a sense I'm a bit of a fools errand in any way trying to define fool in a PhD. And for, you know, particularly Jonathan, you say he's very, he's actually very intellectual. He has, it's, I, I had, I've had some amazing discussions with him, but every now and then he, he won't want to engage with that at all. And he will just mercilessly take the piss of, of that think, that king that thinking. And I kind of understand that I have this king and my view is, I, I actually need to think about it'cause I need to toss the king a bone.

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Howard:

it's just there like all the time with me. And I can find my fall by transporting into mask or, or, you know, obviously of often for me it's a masking or a puppetry. It's something other that allows me to sink below my king,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Howard:

is always there and it, and I've accepted that I have a king and a fool and they are different and I kind of have to throw the king a bone. So that kind of fighting the intellect. I, I think there is an element where I've done that. Like early on when I first discovered masks, that was me realizing that there is a way of me dropping outta my intellect and into body and into being and presence. But I also, that, that sort of thought comes back and you can get, you can get very trapped in the mind, can't you? I mean, I've had that in my life with particularly depression kind of brings you that and then you start going down a kind of thought process. And I. Battling, you know, battling on everything. And there's a point at which actually what you need to do is just put the sword down and go, I'm not gonna fight it anymore.

Jolie:

slapstick.

Howard:

Pick uptick. Yeah, exactly. Put the sword down, pick uptick yourself around with that and put stupid something on. And then, and then, and then life's better, isn't it? I mean, it is kind of better with that. And I think there is an element in the world at the moment where this is exactly where we're at, is, is I, I, I admire and love the way that you and other people like you, like Le you know, Lexi, Lexi,

Jolie:

Mm-hmm.

Howard:

the people who really take on board there. I I, one of my abiding memories of you on the, I think it's the first pilgrimage, was walking along the canals around it must have been around Stratford way. And you had your pink, wonderful pink headdress on, and you would just stop and chat to people because,'cause of course they would,'cause you are, you are there disrupting their normal thing. And I would often be just behind you. So you would speak with them, and that meant that then I'd see you do that, and then I could come and whoever I was with would come and chat to them about what we are doing. It was like you were giving us this, giving us and them this permission to have this space, and then you'll go off and find someone else and people will come up to you. And it was a wonderful thing because it wasn't, I think you said at one point, you know, it's like the archetype of the pilgrim. And that's what we were being, and that's what you're talking about, about that the, that there is something where we, and we were, we were genuinely living it. We weren't

Jolie:

Mm.

Howard:

pretending to do it.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

might have set off all of our egos.

Jolie:

off such an energy. People can

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

I, I, it happened to me, so when I was at the Edinburgh Fringe, when I was about. Probably about 7, 8, 9. I saw a troop of performing clown children who thinking back,'cause at the time, obviously I wouldn't have known or had the, the life knowledge to be able to guess this, but I would guess that they were from some sort of community like com commune kind of where they did clown, you know, where they clowned. So they'd grown up with it, but the way they were with each other was so different to any children interaction I'd ever seen before. And they were clowning and they had red noses and they were juggling and they could do all of these tricks and stuff, but they were also like completely hippie alternative, you know, they were just another world. And they so disrupted my reality and, and you know, stuck with me to this day where I was like, wherever that is, I want in on that. I want a piece of that'cause that looks fun. And yeah, I just feel like when we are walking through these villages in these towns that they might never even have spoken to us, but they just saw us walk through and were, what the hell was that? And you don't know whether that meant that they left a toxic relationship or they quit that job or it was that just, just, you have no idea the effect that you are having. And we do, that walk creates so many ripples. We are rippling literally every second that we're walking.

Howard:

Mm.

Jolie:

don't know who's watched you or seen you at any point, you know, and the effect that you've had on them. And I love that.

Howard:

Yeah. And I, and that's not also, you know, without all the ceremonies as well. I mean, one, one of the thing I loved about that, I, I had, I found it hard, I mean, just facing stuff with myself, I found the performances quite hard in that first one. But what I loved was the idea of us being in ceremony. I mean, the PIL itself was a ceremony, so that was the energy we were bringing, and then we were doing ceremonies and that, that for me felt like that was, yeah, what, you know, who we don't know what ripples we were sending out. We don't want ripples. We were sending out, doing the ceremonies in spaces and within ourselves. And then it's where we've all gone on to, to, you know, where we've, we've gone on afterwards and what the effect that that's us as people. Yeah. And this, the pilgrimage that we did, the momming one, we've set up the mum, the. Chag for mums. So that's starting part of the folk. And it's quite zeitgeist. See this folk, there's so much new folk art happening now.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

Really? It's like,

Jolie:

Yeah. It

Howard:

it's a really big thing. Yeah. Which is great. I think it's

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

good. So we have in the Chag mums, we now have, so I dance the Os on Mayday, which is a,

Jolie:

Brilliant.

Howard:

Horse's head. But we now in the cha of mums, we've got someone who has dances a different os and she's brilliant. It's, it's a beautiful os, it's a white os. Whereas mine's a painted black and very kind of black figure. And hers is this beautiful carved wooden os. Beautiful. Really lovely. And it, it that, so when we did our, our Robinhood and we had the o in the church and we were up and it it, there's something about masks. So I think there's something,

Jolie:

So.

Howard:

me, one of the things about masks is, is that disruptor. I think they are, when someone is in a mask, you see as an audience, something other, it, it's what I talk to my students about when they get it. It's like, if you give into the mask, we won't see you. Which gives you so much permission to, to. To be free because we no longer see you. We see that character. Or normally it's some sort of creature if it's a zani. And what we are seeing is that, and we, we, we completely don't see you anymore. And that's a wonderful freedom as an audience seeing those, these sort of creatures, it's, it's disrupting, you know, it is just naturally disrupting. You see a really good, someone who's really in clown and is a clown and is that mask clown and it's disrupting because they're not,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

they're not doing the normal things,

Jolie:

Which is why people find them scary.'cause they, you

Howard:

which is why

Jolie:

They're just chaos. Yeah. It's just

Howard:

Yeah. I actually

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

talk, talk clown last time to some students and there was someone there who had cholera phobia. Like, seriously, I've never seen this. And the trouble is what I'd done is I, I approaching it as mask. So I hadn't told'em I was gonna do clowning. And I just started clown nosing them up during an exercise and suddenly this poor girl just like turn literally turned out. And then she came and said like, I can't, I, and it was terror. I said, yeah, well you need to go next door and be in that'cause I'm not gonna try and keep you in this room because there's absolute terror. And it, it's the first time I've come across it like it's a real thing and it's

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

most terrified thing I've ever seen in someone.

Jolie:

And that I feel sad about.'cause I feel like that shows how disjointed we've become from it. But I know that

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

thing. I know it's because it's associated with horror films and stuff like that,

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

but that's what we've done to it. Like the fear or the misunderstanding or the, of facing your own fool and your own shadow has turned it into a darkness. It's turned it into this

Howard:

yeah.

Jolie:

when

Howard:

And in a sense, it's, it's there

Jolie:

It.

Howard:

because that is, you know, that is what the fall is doing, is showing

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

is what the fall is showing you. But it,

Jolie:

Yeah,

Howard:

so here's the question which I, I ask, is there, what's, what is, what would your definition be between the difference between a fall and a clown?

Jolie:

I mean

Howard:

I mean, they're sacred clowns, that's a different thing, but that sort of,

Jolie:

The Sacred Clowns.

Howard:

I think the sacred clown's quite close to fall really.

Jolie:

yeah, I'd say the Sacred Clown is quite close to Fool. I feel like The Fool is more communicative. Like, I feel like you are with Clown. I would be less communicative, I'd be more physical. So I

Howard:

Right.

Jolie:

the Fool has the flexibility of a bit more of the, the thinking being there, although it's not the thinking, but the, the the, yeah. That you are able to tell big, bigger stories. I think, I don't, I think Clown is more of a, in a way, like a cartoon version of it. So it's the, it is the comic book version, a bit like the Beginner's Guide to

Howard:

Right. So,

Jolie:

So I feel like Fool is the Shakespeare and the clown is like the beginner's guide. It's, they are the same thing, but clown is much more, Which in a way has a more stripped, stripped back innocence to it. It's, it's almost

Howard:

it's more naive, isn't it? I think, I think that one of the things that all

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

actually knows when you see a fall really working, this is what I get with Jonathan, is like, they really, they, they kind of like really under, whether they do or not, I don't know, but you get the sense that,

Jolie:

but not from a thinking

Howard:

to them

Jolie:

isn't

Howard:

place

Jolie:

un

Howard:

in the thinking place? No. It's in a kind of like just knowing, like a a or almost like

Jolie:

now.

Howard:

Stic kind of just, they just know and they, they kind of have, where's the, the clown is more naive. I think the clown

Jolie:

yeah.

Howard:

the, for me in Shakespeare, the clown is the one that's come from the country and gone to town and go, oh, and then he is taken advantage of because of that. Whereas the fool is the one that's like probably the one taking advantage of the clown actually. That trickster kind of figure sort of is on

Jolie:

You have, you heard, you know how Jonathan does the play on words? Have you

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

the No, as in KNOW. So to know something is. He says that K is I and C to make the K, or it's an I and a C

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

And in the middle of see no W is the circle, which is the full. And so it's, it's, I see. No w So it's when that sphincter is uns split and it's become the circle. So he's not knowing in a thinking way, he's knowing

Howard:

No, no.

Jolie:

way.

Howard:

In an infinite way. Exactly. It's like that kind of, that, which sort of goes back to that sense that the shaman is the one that you come to to ask how do you survive death?

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

do you survive the fear of death

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

yeah.

Jolie:

And that's the surrender for me, like that's what the, the hangman means to me is it's that moment when you just let go and then you slip through the egg timer and you, you just let go. There's nothing to fear of death, just surrendering to it and capitulating into the next thing, whatever that thing

Howard:

Yeah. So we would, death is sort of like, as I, I quite like the phrase that death is like your constant companion. It's always there

Jolie:

totally.

Howard:

you,

Jolie:

yeah,

Howard:

and we're all going towards it. You know,

Jolie:

yeah.

Howard:

at some point we're all gonna face it.

Jolie:

like you know, mercury, you know, have you seen how, you know how mercury moves, where it just goes when it slips through? I always feel

Howard:

Oh yeah. Yeah.

Jolie:

feels like when you slip into sleep and you slip back outta sleep and the dream slips through, but there's that sort of slipping feeling between the two. we are so scared of it that we are gripping the whole time, and it's just putting all these obstacles in the way of it. But if you can just relax, then you slip through these places. So what's

Howard:

And that's

Jolie:

then?

Howard:

my right. So what, yeah, I, I, this is something that I, I think I probably have originally did it as a drama exercise or something. So the idea is to walk intentionally at some point every day at half the normal speed. So if you're in a sit and half your normal speed, so if you're in a city and you intentionally slow down, I found, I did this one a couple of ti times in London, in, in Oxford Street, and it blew my mind and it, and it, it took me outta the matrix.'cause you, you suddenly see all the chaos going on around you and that, and you are kind of, it's, it's like you're just, just slowing down half your normal speed. And it's, it's, that, I think is something that helps you compare with the matrix. Now, I also sometimes do it in the countryside. So if you're in the country, you can also do it with kind of intentional walking where you say, so what I would do in London would say, I'm gonna walk between here and that lamppost at half my normal speed and slow down. And then in the country I, and do it with, like, I'm gonna walk between here and that bush. And in the country particularly, I really am aware of really feeling it. It comes a bit from like Tai chi practice of like intentional walking, intentionally sinking into your breath and placing your foot and really feeling it. It, it, it, you know, the heel go down, the Togo down, and then the next one placed intentionally. And I think in the country, what that does is bring me into presence. So I often go out into, we've got woods behind with, with our new dog, Lottie. And who is, who is a fool. She's I haven't talked about her. She, she literally invents, she's a spaniel and she can invent games. She, she can play infinitely. She's teaching me so much about play. I'll go out with her in the woods and I'll realize after a while I'm, I'm like in my head, which is partly why I go out there. And then I go, just, just walk this next section in that way. And suddenly I'm with her in, in the woods and, and I've sunk below my. All that chaos that the world's giving. So I think in the country it's quite good for, in the city doing it, I think it can be really quite revolutionary because the city has its own speed. It has its own sort of energy and it's, and the energy in cities that tend to be go here, do this, buy this, get this, da da da da da da. And just dropping out of that and seeing how everything is, that is kind of, yeah, I, IFI found it when I, I did it as an intention a few times. It changed my, again, it sort of changed my understanding of, of this thing of how our attention is caught. How the mine's attention's caught, and that you don't have to be caught by it.

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

That's my, yeah, that's my chaos crusade. I think that's quite

Jolie:

brilliant.

Howard:

chaos. Think to, to,

Jolie:

I

Howard:

you know, with,

Jolie:

yeah, it, you can, and people will just because it just slowing down. Movement is archetypal. That's one of the, the ways that I will

Howard:

yeah.

Jolie:

archetype is to move slowly and suddenly everyone will just stop and watch you, what you doing, and they'll see you. You suddenly become visible. Yeah. Yeah. That's great.

Howard:

What are you doing that for? I dunno. Why shouldn't, I mean, that's the weird thing is why shouldn't you, of course you don't'cause social norms because people are looking at you. But the great thing about, you know, like the fall is like, well,'cause I, I felt like doing, why shouldn't we, why shouldn't we all feel like doing that? From that, every now and then, it'd be wonderful

Jolie:

yeah,

Howard:

all just went, oh, I'm just gonna walk slowly for between now and between here and the the corner. I'm suddenly gonna change my speed. Imagine if everybody did that, what cities would be like, it would be be amazing. It would just,

Jolie:

It is. And it's, so, it's tiny things like that that makes you realize how much reality is made up because that we've just, we've agreed socially and that is part of what the fool is, is breaking and playing with those agreed rules. So for example, when, you know, there's always the story that Jonathan an audience to a restaurant and they all sat one side of a table and he sat the other and they had a meal together instead of being in the theater and just doing

Howard:

Yeah,

Jolie:

Like, it just completely disrupted reality. And yeah, just by changing your speed is this tiny little thing that demonstrates that it's all made up, that we've all just

Howard:

yeah,

Jolie:

that this

Howard:

yeah.

Jolie:

we are walking.

Howard:

Exactly.

Jolie:

also be doing this. You know, it is just what our collective agreement is. And obviously every city has its own speed. You know, different countries have their own speed.

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

own speed. None of it's fixed, but yeah. Brilliant. Thank you. That's awesome. Well, thank you so much. Is there anything else you wanted to ask me if, have we covered things that you wanted to know

Howard:

I think we might, I think that, I think that's so it was mainly about kind of how, how it's affecting your practice. But I can see with you this, it's partly, it, it seemed to be, it was almost destined. It's, this is a continuation

Jolie:

Yeah. It, it does

Howard:

and,

Jolie:

like it was a destined thing. And also part of it is and this is one of the things that came up in the circle place for me to give up. Is it, is it, so it's the, yeah, it, it's my tussle. So you are talking about having to get below the chaos. My tussle is that, I am a storyteller, but more of a, like life storyteller. So less so made up stories, more so fictional, so it's not true, but it's also true, you know?

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

That's how I work. But then, Jonathan's also always working with me to break that, because that's my habit. So it's also how can I break away from that? But at the same time, it's like, that's also what my best tool is in my toolkit. So it is like, I wanna work with that and develop it, but I want to loosen it and break it and, and improve it and enrich it. But yeah, so of that thing of it being predestined is true, but also. Part of my work and working with Jonathan is to break the habit of it always being this story that neatly

Howard:

Yeah,

Jolie:

and can be a bit outer worldly.'cause then you said Yeah, but of how did it make you feel? Like how I, I shy away from emotion and it's more of the like, intellectual story of it. I need to stop and go and how did that actually affect

Howard:

that's, that's,

Jolie:

Or,

Howard:

is kind of what, what my PhD is. I've, I've sort of recognized that there's a kind of second wave of practitioners like yourself. I count myself in that people who've trained Jonathan or Frankie, and they're going on and they're finding their own influences with it. So some of them are very few, but some of them actually are doing the, the full like fooling. But I think a lot of people have, are taking that thing that falling does, which is face you with yourself and, and show you and break you patterns, break you. And that gives something into, into the, the, the work that you do, the work theater that you do or the, or, or, I mean, I think with most people it also affects their life. I mean, think it, it affects that. So, so obviously a lot of the stuff you do is because you, you have, you are kind of your inner and outer world of, of a very,

Jolie:

un

Howard:

connected and twisted. So,

Jolie:

Yeah.

Howard:

idea of, of even this podcast and the nonsense and the chaos, you know, it's this, it, it's doing something within that context that's inspired by fool that's being brought about by the ideas behind Fool. And I think you know, that's, that's one of the things that interests me in, in my work is looking and saying, well, so what did fool do to me? It, it did similar things to me where it basically, it stopped me being quite so much like my own ass, I think.

Jolie:

yeah. I mean, well that's, it's, it's funny'cause this sort of brings us full circle to what I was talking about at the beginning when I was saying about the vegetarian thing and enjoying having, so what, what I've got most from it is working with my archetype. there was a moment of liberation for me when I went, do you know what? This pin going through me is too painful for me to just keep doing. I did it for seven years and you know, it was amazing. But there was a moment where I had to go, I'm not a fool in the way that you need me to be, to work with my archetype is not the fool. There are people here who it is, and they are gonna be able to work with you on the stage in the way that you want them to. I'm not a fool. I am a Aphrodite Strumm pit slash warrior. So I, it, I kind of needed to come away from Jonathan to give myself permission, and I feel like permission is a key word for me. And, and I feel like that's one of the things that came through the pilgrimage is that we all giving ourselves permission to have our relationship with the inner world, however that may be. So Jonathan has his one

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

and it's wonderful to be around and it's a, it is this beautiful, painful pin going through that teaches you so much. But I have my own. In a world relationship, and it's giving myself permission to be the trumpet, to, to fall in love with a 20-year-old. When I move to SARC and, and marry him, because I'm Willow from the wickerman. I, that's what I do, like giving myself permission to be the warrior, to be, you know, to be in politics and to be fighting whatever it's, I'm fighting and doing whatever it's I'm doing because I'm giving myself that permission. And it's something I saw when we were doing the pilgrimage, what our relationships were to the lines, because everyone had a different relationship to it. So some people felt exactly the shape and size of the lines, and some people just felt a sense of serendipity, which is what I feel. I feel like I just noticed serendipity and I notice magic. I also think possibly if I walked anywhere. With that kind of intention that that also might happen. I don't know. I, I, I believe in everything and nothing. So I think I like the story of the lines and that's what we are doing. But also, I love that the KLF created the soup line where they've just drawn a line across the country, and if you live on it, they'll come and make you soup, which is brilliant. So I think that you can create these magical lines yourself. You can create your own intention line and that that would also have a significance. But I feel like that's our relationship to the land and that it's giving yourself permission to relate to it in the way that you relate to it, that it's connected through your inner world. And so I kind of needed to break away from Jonathan to have the space to be able to be my own archetype and to sit within my own archetype that wasn't quite exactly what he needed for the, the stage stuff that he wanted to do

Howard:

But do you think it was a work with him that that introduced you more deeply to that concept of archetype?

Jolie:

Yeah, 100%. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, I couldn't have possibly felt my archetype if it hadn't been for the circle plays. So it was only after doing three circle plays and observing, like you said, observing everyone else's, I went, wow, that is so you, and that is so you, this is so me. And so then I could feel what my flavor was. And they're universal. So that's why I, when I talk about the egg timer, it's like the closer you are to the sphincter, the more it is like you

Howard:

Yeah.

Jolie:

That's the archetype. And outwardly that's you and your life and how it manifests. But the further out you go, it becomes the universe. And the further in you go, it becomes collective consciousness and the dreaming. And at some point they all join up. So we are all, everything and we're infinite. But as we get closer to this sphincter, we become more like our flavor. And then the, and and so that's also why I see the outer world as a sign language for the inner world. Because if you wanna know, like without doing a circle, play what your inner world's like, look at what your outer world's like. Like what do you attract? Yeah. Like what's, how is your house a mess? Is your house a cer? You know, whatever it is. Like whatever you create in your life is partly what your inner world looks like. But it's always coming back to the word permission is giving yourself permission to own all of that and to own your archetype and to own what you create. Like this is

Howard:

without judgment.

Jolie:

are doing without judgment. Because you know, like I always give, yeah. I give an example of this guy that I know who has made a living as a Hollywood, a actor of being like a pedophile and the Badie. He's like, he's in the Craze Brothers film. He's the Badie in the Craze Brothers film, but he got famous from playing a pedophile in a really horrific, like, real like gritty film. And, and he, he, that's his archetype. And no, no one wants that to be their archetype, do they like, but if you embrace it instead of fighting against it, it doesn't mean that he is those things. It's just that's the atmosphere that he has and therefore he can play it. played it and it's now a Hollywood star. He's made a fortune out of playing it, you know, and he's hilarious and he's at ease with who he is as a person because he hasn't fought against it. He's just gone. Yep. I am that and brilliant. So that's what often I find that people don't like their archetype because there's almost, it's almost as if we is that comparison is the thief of joy. We almost look at everybody else and go, oh, they're amazing. Oh, I love what they

Howard:

Yeah, I wish I was.

Jolie:

You never wanna be the thing that you are.

Howard:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Jolie:

of what it is, even if it's Aphrodite like mine is, I still was like, oh, but I wanted to be more, I dunno, feline and mysterious, or I want it to be more like Jane Scott, or I want it to be more like Joanne, or I want like, no, you are a gritty down

Howard:

you're who you're, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I think that's what I had to, so a lot of people do with Jonathan, I wanna be able to do that. And it's like, you're not gonna be able to do that. You have to find what it does to you and what, and what your relationship is to it, I think. And yeah,

Jolie:

We just have to be our wonderful little facets of the inner divine jewel.

Howard:

just all our crazy madness and eccentricities and everything in there. No. Yeah.

Jolie:

Brilliant. Well thank you.

That was the awesome Howard Gaton. What an absolute pleasure it was to chat to him. I could have talked to him forever. I nearly did, and so I'm glad that I was able to share this chat with you. And yeah, hopefully next week I'll be back in the recording studio. My house is literally covered in detritus from Beltane. I have. I've got so much washing to do, I've got so much stuff to sort out. We've got people camping in the garden still, and I just have no idea when they're gonna walk in or out. So I had to sit in my room today and record just through the computer. I apologize for the sound quality of the intro and uh, the outro, but I promise next week we'll be back to our usual standards and I've got another special guest lined up that I'm looking forward to you, hearing all about who's from the Frankie lineage of fooling. So that's an exciting. Opportunity to hear falling from a different perspective. That's with Naomi Smith, who is a really good friend from Glastonbury Festival, who I've been working with for a long time. So that will be in a couple of weeks. I'll be back next week with an update on what's going on in my world and can't wait to share with you all the stuff that's been going on. It has been crazy. This rollercoaster of life is taking me on some twists and turns that I never expected, and it's all good, but. ultimate challenge, like it's been unbelievably challenging. But I have made it through and I feel like I've come out bigger and stronger and surrounded by more love and support than I've ever had before. I feel more part of the community than I've ever done before, and Beam was banging. So thank you, thank you, thank you for anyone who came and supported me, and for all the people that support me in life generally. I love you. I appreciate you and I can't wait to keep sharing this mad adventure with you, so I shall see the anon.