#46 Rolling with the Future; Roz Rolls and a Vision of Hope

I was absolutely thrilled to interview Roz Rolls this week, fresh off the boat from New Zealand and back on Sark for a visit. Roz is genuinely one of the coolest, most inspiring people I’ve ever met. We first connected around the fire at the Nook—our little sacred spot on the island where we gather under the stars and watch the sunset.

Meeting her felt like being welcomed into a circle of wise elders—something I’ve had the honour of experiencing a few times in my life—and I was instantly drawn to her. She carries this deep, grounded knowledge that spans the spiritual, political, and scientific realms, and speaking with her was both eye-opening and uplifting.

I didn’t know where the conversation would lead, but I knew it would be special—and Roz didn’t disappoint. I’m absolutely over the moon to be sharing this episode with you, and I really hope you enjoy it as much as I did.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

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Thank you for all your support -x-

Transcript

0:32

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host, Jolie Rose. Today's interview is so exciting because I didn't, oh, I did know, but I had forgotten that Ro Rolls was gonna be back in SARC when I got back from Glastonbury and I. We spent a Sunday night hanging out with each other. She came here for dinner and then it occurred to me that I could interview her while she was here for Nonsense in the chaos, and she was able to do it on the Monday night, and then that means I've been able to get it out this week. It's extremely exciting because she is. One of the coolest people I've ever met. We met round a fire at the Nook, in Sarc, which is our little special fire pit that's like a communal fireplace that we can all hang out under the stars where we can watch the sunset. And I met her and it was like being in a sacred circle with elders, which I've had the privilege of doing a few times and. I just fell in love with her and, and it was such an inspiring conversation. She really knows her stuff on a spiritual and political level and scientific level. She knows about things and I. I just loved talking to her and I had no idea what we were gonna talk about or which direction it was gonna go in, but I knew it was gonna be awesome and she didn't let me down. So it was actually quite a long podcast, but I hope you will enjoy it and I can't wait to share it with you. So with no further delay, here is the awesome roles, roles. Excellent. So here we are. I'm here on sarc and I'm interviewing my friend Ro uh, Ross Rose. She just found out it's actually her surname. Yeah. And Roz is an old friend who lived in SARC before I moved here and then left just as I moved over, which I was really gutted about. Yeah, I reckon. I was like, no, that's my favorite person. Um, and she's gone back to New Zealand, which is where you're from, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah, it is. So tell us a bit about how you ended up, well, tell us where you're from and how you ended up in soc. Yeah. Oh, I'm from, uh, New Zealand from, um, in the Cook Islands. My family's from the Cook Islands too, but yeah. Uh, mostly from Christchurch, New Zealand. Mm-hmm. Or also grew up in Wellington. But, um, yeah, I was just traveling, working and traveling around the world and I ended up, uh, stopping in Guernsey. Mm-hmm. And that's how I sort of got introduced tos and then. Yeah. What set you off traveling around the world in the first place? What was the real reason to Uh, I was so curious about the world. Yeah. And living on New Zealand, you're quite isolated. Yeah. And um, yeah, I was just really wanted to get out and see, and where I was living was a bit of a hole. Mm-hmm. And I was just dying to leave actually. Yeah. You know, dying to leave New Zealand, but Yeah. Just to explore the world. Because you're Murray, is that right? Yeah, my nana's a Cook Islander. Yeah. Yeah. So she's from the Cook Islands. Yeah. Yeah. And my dad. So just a Pake Kiwi. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Because I remember you saying when I met you,'cause I met you on the fire at the Nook. Yeah. Which was awesome. And we had a really amazing night. And you talked about, and I don't, if you don't wanna talk about this, that's fine. It was just, it was something you told me at the time, which was that your family are all black and then you had very white skin. Yeah. And so you had a quite a different sort of experience growing up to your relations in that you were white. Yeah. And so you kind of wanted to get to know the world of the white people a bit more and understand. Yeah. Culture a bit more of the white people, is that right? Yeah. Well, it's, it's sort of right. But it's, um, yeah, I did like my family is, you know, multicultural. Mm-hmm. So, um, but yeah, definitely a lot of them are a lot darker than I am. Mm-hmm. And, um, and then I grew up, especially as a teenager in, and that, you know, a lot of Maori Polynesian, uh, people and they were, I was good friends with them. Mm. But then, um, but that's actually, yeah, I, I moved there when I was a teenager to Wellington. Mm-hmm. And up until that stage, like living in Christchurch as a younger kid, a lot of people were all mixed blood. Mm-hmm. I didn't even know about racism. Yeah. I didn't even know it existed. Yeah. And then I lived in the Cook Islands for a bit, and that was awesome, you know? Yeah. And, um, got to learn a lot more about the island side of my wau Yeah. Of my family. And then I moved to, in Wellington and. There was just this huge class and cultural divide. Yeah. I had never even expect, knew that happened. And there was a lot of like Maori Polynesian probably living in states houses. And then there was a lot of wealthy white people living in more, uh, you know, rich areas, you know? Yeah. Fancy places. Yeah. And there, there was all this, some racism and like, oh, you know, the fucking park yards or this white bitch and all this. And, and I, I was really conflicted'cause a lot of my friends were all Maori Polynesian. Mm-hmm. But, you know, so I was sort of with all this group, but at the same time I was feeling very with the way I looked. Mm-hmm. And then sometimes I'd be like, oh, you know, don't say that. And they'd be like, oh no, don't worry. You know, I'd say, oh, don't say that. You know, I'm white. They'd be like, oh, no, no, you're not really you, you're ro but I would felt white. You wouldn't know looking at me. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. So that was really conflicting. And also at the same time, uh, on the new, uh, like from school, we're learning about the colonization and yeah. All these terrible things that the English did. So it made me really angry at English people. Yeah. Made me really angry at French people because of all the nuclear testing in the Pacific and all that. Yeah. So, as a teenager and then I was, you know, sort of angry. I didn't wanna know, I didn't really have any interest in, in that side of my heritage because I seen it was quite negative, you know? Mm-hmm. But, um. Yeah. And there was a lot of probably negative things going on at the time, so that's why I just couldn't wait to leave. Mm. But it wasn't until I, I came and I eventually, I ended up living in Ireland, in Dublin. Mm-hmm. And most of my ancestry from Ireland. Mm. And I was suddenly like, oh, this is beautiful. And the people were live there. The culture was like, oh, this is nothing to be ashamed of. Yeah. And then the more, and then I ended up living in the uk or living here and living in France and realizing that it's not really the people. Yeah. It's, you know, the system. It's the system. It's the system. And people here, like, uh, the Europeans were colonized many years before and suppressed of their, you know, traditions and understandings and it's just a cycle that's been repeated and then came and obviously happened to New Zealand and a lot of the colonies. Yeah. So, so it was really eyeopening for me. Yeah. And, you know, to understand, oh, everyone's been, it's just another cycle. Yeah. So it was really healing. Yeah. You know, and I could let go of all that sort of stuff and be real proud of everything. All my ancestry, yeah. I just think all those years of burning witches or whatever they've done, or Well, and the Saxons,'cause we had the two tier, it's interesting being here because this is where the Normans came from. Yeah. You know, this is the part of the Norman William the Conquer land. Yeah. And, um, and the, and it, the Normans created, you know, a two tier cost system in the UK where you had the Saxons who spoke Saxon. And that's why you have a different word for pig to pork, which was the French word, which is what the rich people ate. Yeah. The, the poor people didn't get to eat the meat. The poor people reared the meat. Oh yeah. And so for them it was pig and cow and chicken. Yeah. And then for the French, it was. Colette and beef at so there was two languages, I think up until that point it had been a lot more of like mishmash of kings, of different kings and you have pen dragons and different tribes. And then with Will the conqueror, it became like he was in charge of the whole place. Oh, wow. And, and yeah. So there was that French cast system that came in and, and even now, and that, and they spoke Latin. And so, you know, rich, wealthy people have been speaking Latin for ages and yeah, the poor people didn't even know what the Bible was really saying. It was just being translated to them by the priest cast and, yeah, that's right. Eh? Yeah. Crazy times. It's so mad. It is so mad. Yeah. So we've all been colonized unless you're one of the wealthy, then. At some point your people had their land taken from them and Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of the culture suppressed or stripped away. Yeah. And their language and the knowledge, different languages and Yeah. All of those things. Different things. Yeah. And your tribe, like the means of our tribes, we forgot all of it. Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, at least the New Zealand, they keep the name of the tribe, you know that. Yeah. But then I guess it wasn't so long ago. No, exactly. It's only the 1840s really, so Yeah. Yeah. It was a thousand, a thousand years ago. Oh, it's winning the conqueror's birthday this year. I think we're about to start doing, winning in the conquer, like Norman celebrations over here. Um, and it's, so yeah, it's a thousand years since his birth. Okay. So yeah, so, so it's been a thousand years since we were colonized, so yeah. A lot of knowledge has been forgotten and lost. And is that the British is that were colonized by in the conquer, yes. But in the conqueror, like, um, uh, um, the king died in England and he'd done quite a good job of sort of uniting all of the. The Lords and the other kings. So he did sort of become kind of a head king. Yeah. Um, but he didn't have a clear succession. And so, uh, there was a few people that were contenders and one of them was Harold, who at some point had promised William that he would give him the crown of England, if ever it came his way. Um, and he'd sworn on, uh, uh, saint's bones over in France at some point. And so when, uh, the, the king before died, I can't remember what his name was, um, William was like, well, I, I should be getting my throne. And it was like, it was a really, it was probably the most epic battle in the whole of human history in that Harold had like gone and fought his brother up north. And it was this crazy fight where one guy is a myth, I think, but one guy like held a bridge for hours on his own and then someone sneaked up underneath the bridge and stuck a spear up through his legs because he was just like slaughtering everyone and came fast. And they done that battle and had won that. And then. Uh, heard that William had landed down south and they had to leg it from the north all the way down south to try and fight down in the south. And um, the Normans were just much more, uh, by that point. Like efficient fighters. They had horses, they used horses, whereas the Saxons were way more like old school, you know, just charging him axes and that kind of thing was the Normans did shield protection like the Romans used to do. And yeah, they were just much more, they had castles and Yeah. Yeah. Like the Saxons were all in wooden huts and stuff, so Oh. They just seemed like AI to the Saxon world. It was like people coming in with tanks and Yeah. So, and that was only a thousand years ago. That was only a thousand years ago. It's not even long. Really? It's like when you think about it, it's like how many generations? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then in the 18 hundreds there was the land, um, uh, enclosures act. Mm-hmm. So they used to be common land where people used to be able to farm and keep their animals. And then one day the rich just went. I'm putting a fence up. Yeah. And they just put fences up and said it was now theirs. Yeah. And the common people tried to fight against it. And there was a group called the Levelers, which is, do you know the band, the Levelers? Yeah, I do know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So what they're named after was this group of, um, men and women who fought against the land enclosures. And there were children. It was, it was a whole community of people and they carried on farming. And some people who had been paid, some mercenaries were there on the horseback and they ran through them and they just said, we don't want kill you, but we've been paid to kill you. We're here, we have to kill you if you don't stop. And they refused to stop. And so they came back through and killed them all, chop them up and tied their bodies so that they could like, put them on sticks. And they prayed around all of the neighboring towns and villages with these body parts and said, this is what happens if you don't do it. You're told. Yeah. And that's when we lost our land. And up until that point, the earth was everybody's. Yeah. And then from then onwards it was, it was all enclosed and suddenly then only footpaths. Connect, you know, you've still got footpaths, but that's it. Otherwise land's all loaned and carved up. Mm-hmm. Oh man. And that wasn't, that was the 1800, that was like 17 hundreds. I think it was late 17 hundreds, early 18 hundreds. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. That almost sounds like a similar story to party haka in New Zealand. Right. What happened there? Tell the story of what happened there. I have to remember the exact, uh, details, but I know it was very similar where the Maori were farming the land and the pake were taken off them, and whether I think the Maori were kept putting up the fences. Mm-hmm. So, so that they could have their crops in that, but they would keep getting destroyed and then they would keep putting them up and it was like a peaceful protest. They weren't even mm-hmm. That's what it's famous for. Um, and then the, the English armies would take away all the men and put them in caves. Mm-hmm. And then the woman and children would come and do the same. But pretty much similar, like, you know. Yeah. It wasn't, yeah. It's the thing that I keep coming back to at the moment and I keep trying to like get across to younger people is that it's all made up. Yeah. You know, this is all made up. Yeah. Someone at some point decided this is the way things are and then laws were written to support it. Yeah. And that's it. That's right. That's how we now are governed. Yeah. But it's not real. No. And we're just inheriting these things and thinking that it's the way it is. I think it's true. Yeah. No way. It's crazy. And also that wealthy people are like some other breed of people, like as if there's something different. And that's been the thing that's been so interesting moving here and living and working, and especially being in chief police in amongst like really, really wealthy people. Yeah. And just being like, oh, you are absolutely normal. Which I know is completely obvious. Yeah. But they, they're so in the news and on media and everything, they're so, um. What's the word? Fetishized. Mm. You know, like Downton Abbey or, you know. Yeah. There's always these series that people watch that are just like, yeah. Oh, which people are this thing? Yeah. Yeah. And here's their values and here's the and. And they seem different. Mm. But when you actually are really, and amongst each other on a day-to-day basis, you're like, no, you are absolutely just the same as me. Yeah. And you just inherited a, a way of being. And then what I've been sad about, because I was initially quite like impressed by that, I was like, oh, that's really cool. And then people have ended up being such a dickers. But you literally have had generation after generation, and even if you are new to it, you've come into this world where. You know, I'm watching a, a TV show at the moment called Harlots, which I love, and it came out like in probably 2018, 2019. And I loved it then, and I hadn't seen it since. Yeah. And it's of the prostitutes in the 17 hundreds, and I think the 17 hundreds was probably the, one of the hardest times in history because you had, you still had all the, what's the word? Superstitions and, uh, torture and, and like, um, diseases of the medieval times. Yeah. So you, you know, everyone had PS and, uh, were getting hung and hung, drawn and quartered, and people believed in witchcraft and that kind of thing. Yeah. But you had a lot of modern technology, so it was just coming into the industrial age. Yeah. So they were using like modern weapons, but they, the medicine hadn't caught up yet. Mm. So there was a lot of, like, muck of the industrial revolution, but it hadn't, you know, we didn't have flushing water or any, you know, everything was just kind of gross. And um, and these prostitutes, like, it was such a huge thing. So many women were prostitutes'cause that was the only option they had, but they were being treated like appallingly. Oh yeah. And you just watching the show and you're just like, this is what rich people think they can do and how they can behave because they just see other human beings and it's like slavery. Yeah. You know, they see other human humans just as a commodity. Yeah. And to be able to get into that mindset where you can treat people that badly when you are all the same. Yeah. Means that you've, you have put yourself into some kind of place in your head that thinks that you can do that. Yeah. And that's pretty horrifying. But yeah, it's, I, I mean I think probably slavery had a lot to do with it actually, because there's always been slavery. Yeah. Like that's as old as time. Yeah, that's right. It used to be, I think, more people that you'd been at war with, you know, people you'd battled with. You'd take prisoners and people would be made slave and stuff. But the like level of doing it that was happening in the 18 hundreds where it was just become a huge industry. Yeah. You just have to have like lost your humanity to some extent to have done all of that. Absolutely. Yeah. And that's what made half these people all the money that they've got. Yes, exactly. Yeah. The blood of other people. Yeah, that's right. Eh, it's crazy. Yeah. So, yeah. So what did you feel like you learned from, from coming to Europe and, oh, I learned so much, like I. At that first stage when I moved to Dublin, I really felt home there and it really made me like proud of my, um, you know, my European heritage. And, um, yeah. And I loved it. And it became a home. And I lived in France and other places after that, but often I'd go back to Ireland feeling home. Mm. And then eventually years later, I moved tos and this became like a HomeAway from, you know, it's been beautiful, but living here it was, um, by the time I came here, I had three kids already. Yeah. So, um, I was a bit more grounded than just traveling and working and all that sort of thing. And I was getting really into gardening and plants. Yeah. Ands is just incredible for, you know, the wild plants of the British Isles that you get to see here. Yeah. And, or, you know, of north of France and that. So yeah, I was just like learning so much and started learning a lot about the cultic traditions and that Yeah. Which I didn't know anything about up until then. Yeah. And, um, yeah, and, and studying permaculture as well, which was all combined with that. But yeah, no, it was really amazing.'cause I just saw so many correlations and similarities with Al Maori and their understanding of like how everything's interconnected. And like in Al Maori we understand, which is, um, Al Maori means, uh, the worldview, Maori worldview Uhhuh, you know, and Tao was like the universe. Yeah. And t Maori is like the worldview of from Maori, and they understand Mother Earth is Papa Sky father. And like, um, the spirit of Maori is the spirit of life that's in everything and everyone and all this and yeah. And it was so beautiful. And the more I learned about all these traditions I saw, oh, there's so many beautiful, you know, a lot of understandings. Mm-hmm. Even the stars that they were looking at, even though we're on the other side of the world, were similar, you know, similar stories. Yeah. Similar stories like Pilates, which is our Yeah. You know, the Seven Sisters. Yeah. Yeah. Because that, like those old Greek, um, mythologies where those sisters, uh, they're, they're sisters, those stars. Yeah. In a Maori, um, in, in the most common stories of Maki, they're also sisters. Ah, you know, but each and because they're in Australia as well. Yeah. Isn't it interesting? Blue Mountains, they have the seven sisters. Oh, right. And and it's the same consolation. It's the same constellation. Yeah. Isn't it interesting Isn't how they get this female and in some of the Maori, um, and especially some that are more, you know, also'cause each tribe had their different stories. Yeah. Some of them, they're not all women, but, but they do always tend to represent, each star represents a, um, whether it's a different aspect, whether it could be like pta, ka the star as the, the goddess of the underworld. Mm-hmm. And often pua trees are growing on the cliff and they've got their long whining, um, roots that go down into the, down the cliff. And that was like seen as the way that people's spirits might go to the underworld. Oh, wow. And then you have other stars that are to represent like, um, Kai Moana, like seafood. Uh, sea, uh, food from the sea or food from freshwater or food from the forest and all these different stars or some will be about rain and storms. And they would watch these stars when they rose in the, um, they used to rise, well, actually in New Zealand, the shortest day, our midwinter solstice is like June 20, you know, opposite to here. Yeah, the opposite. Yeah. June 21st. Yeah. And, and for the Maori people, this is their New Year Uhhuh. Surprise. Surprise. The end of one cycle, the beginning of a new, and this was the time of the Mai Stars. Stars rising Uhhuh because they, in late March, they start to set, or late May it is, they start to set and you don't see them for a bit. Mm-hmm. And they start to rise again around this time of Maki. And that's when they would be studied for this week of Maki. And, um, they were looking, if the constellation was very clear, it might be a good year. Mm-hmm. And if one particular part of it, like say the, the, you know, the freshwater food star was very clear, it could be a real good season for freshwater food. Oh wow. That's, or if it was really fuzzy, it might be, you know, a bad year for, you know, so this is how they would predict their year coming. Wow. And it would also be the time when they'd start preparing their foods are their fields for the, which is the sweet potato. Yeah. Which was something that they bought, uh, with them to New Zealand as amazing voyage as they were. Oh. Which they would've traded with South America. So they, they knew the Pacific, they knew that Pacific. They were back and forth and all around them. It's mad. So do you know how long ago that was? That was that they came to New Zealand? Yeah. Is it different amounts it like 10,000 or. No, maybe not. It's a few thousand years ago. I think it, I would have to check because I feel like Australia keeps getting older and older. I would, Australia's ancient. Yeah, definitely. But I would have to look on, yeah, have to look on my, um, because it's so mad.'cause we clearly did, I mean, I think there's something about either the stories either where picking up the same thing Yeah. Or there was a connection and the stories can sort of like show us where our travels went. Yeah. You see what I mean? Because if we've got these connecting stories, then there must be some older connection between us that we That's right. You know, maybe we're all together at one point and went off with these stories. Yeah, exactly. Or we are picking it up from Yeah. The energy that they're giving off or whatever, you know. Yeah, that's, it's an interesting, isn't it? That's, yeah. Because the more they understand, like with the Polynesian travels, because at first, uh, you know, when we were at school learning history, it was like. Captain Cook discovered New Zealand. And you never really heard much about what happened with the Maori people though. Oh, these people were on a little Waka and they came to the land like whoopie do. But actually, yeah, it was incredible. I mean, it's more incredible to have come a tiny little ade on a massive, and they weren't even that tiny. There were these massive big cater meringues that they would prepare for months in advance. Yeah. And they used to like hus all these coconuts. And the woman would make all these amazing, massive, big nets out of the panda, which is like a plant that grows in the islands of Pacific Islands. And um, and they used to make these bas of big nets and fill them with coconuts to bring behind the Waka. Wow. Or the VA and Cook Island. They would say vodka and um, yeah. And then the woman would have to fast before they went on these voyages so that their stomach would shrink and they'd be lighter. Oh, wow. Which I was quite surprised. I thought they'd be eating because they're not so fast as much as they could. But no, they used to fast. Wow. And I guess the men kept eating'cause they might have to paddle. Yeah. But they did also harness the Yeah, i, I fast before go on the pilgrimage, so. Oh, don't have to carry so much weight. Oh, well, yeah. About everything I carry, I'm having to carry That's right. My body. Yeah. Yeah. Well that's what they did, so, yeah. Yeah. That's funny. I mean, yeah. And they, they were even having arranged marriages between different islands.'cause they understand, uh, they understood the importance of like a, a fresh, gentle, and all that, you know? So, yeah. That's really cool. So they were pretty onto it and they knew all the star navigation and they had stories about the way the stars would set and that's, you know, the way they'd go. Yeah. You know, so, yeah. I heard about being able to read water as well. Uh, there's a book that I'm reading by Tristan Gully. Yeah. And, um, they would be able to tell by the, the behavior of the sea how close they were to islands or to land because the way the, the waves were, the light patterns on the, on the sea. Oh yeah. So they could read the water and tell, like if they were near. Dip the bollocks into the water to know seriously, I've heard the story. Yeah. it's lovely as well sitting outside here with you because you planted all this garden, didn't you? Yeah. Yeah. I know a lot of all, especially all the fruit. Yeah. Yeah. A lot of the old, like all the, the older, um, you know, uh, what do you call ornamentals? Were here. Yeah. But pretty much, yeah. And a lot of, all that new stuff down there are the food forest. And talk a little bit about permaculture because some people might not know what that is. Yeah. But it's such an amazing thing. Yeah. It's also amazing. Yeah. Well, permaculture is a design philosophy that, um, looks at traditional and indigenous ways of land management or even ideas. And interwoven with like scientific new scientific research and stuff. And also we are, nature is our greatest teacher looking at natural systems and uh, looking at how nature works and, um, yeah. Using all these, uh, tools to help design, whether it could be our land or, um, business. It could be used for multiple different things. Building your house, you could use it. So it offers, uh, three core ethics like at the heart of permaculture, which is care for the earth, uh, care for the people and care for the future. Mm-hmm. And that's the heart of permaculture. And that's almost like, I guess permaculture could be described as a big open vessel. Mm-hmm. That can hold a multitude of different ideas and techniques and, you know, frameworks. But those three core ethics acts as the filter. Mm-hmm. So if it sort of ticks those boxes, it could be part of permaculture. Mm-hmm. Because it could be something sort of green building design or social systems design or land design, you know, so it's very varied or car design or whatever it could be. Mm-hmm. Um, yeah, so, so that's the main thing. And then there's 12 guiding principles to help you through the design process. Mm-hmm. And now things like, you know, one of the most important is observe and interact. So just observing our natural world and learning from it. Mm-hmm. And things like produce no waste using value, renewable resources. Mm-hmm. Using value, diversity, integrate rather than segregate. Yeah. And so, yeah, things that's interesting'cause we're gonna try and put together an island plan for sarc. And I think for me, that's the thing that feels the most key.'cause I think part of the reason why we keep having problems here is that we don't have a vision. Mm-hmm. And so it means that other people can come in and try and put their vision on us, whereas if we were like, this is what we are, then anyone coming up, it's like, well, do you fit in with our plan? No, you don't. Well then we're not interested in what you are saying, what you're doing. So it just gives us that. Mm. Because at the moment we're just, things keep happening at us and we say no. Yeah. But it's like, yeah, but what are we saying yes to? What's the Yes. Yeah. Yeah. That's cool. And it needs to come from all of us. Mm. Because like obviously there's things that I think it could be or should be, but, but I can't make everyone else agree with that if that's not what they think. So we need to create it together. Yeah. And then see what, what it is that we all value about the island and what it is that we can be a, you know, what's our role in the world? Mm-hmm. Like what can we be a shining light us? That's beautiful. Yeah. Um, so yeah, I want to try and help us create a plan where we do that in that kind of way more in a permaculture type way. Because, um, I think we've had a few things that have been done before where people have come in and done like reports Yeah. And have told us like, this is how much water you've got. This is how much this and that you've got, here's the weaknesses, here's the strengths. And we've had about four or five of them. Yeah. But they just go in a drawer and nothing really happens. Or like some things happen, but then they tail off. Uh, I feel like it needs to be more of a cre, creative and inspiring thing. Mm. That we can be like, this is what we're about. And then it can be on all of our literature, you know, all of the, everything, you know, that's what the school's doing. That's what the housing is doing. That's what the tourism's doing. Yeah. And yeah, we're just all on the same page. Yeah. So that's the, that's the thing I want to try and do nice here before I, I dunno if I leave the government or whatever, but like that's, that's what I want to do before I leave. Yeah. Awesome. Try to get that done. Awesome. Yeah. Good on you. Yeah, no. Oh, that would be great. Yeah. It's a good idea to, it'd be get to family culture, people involved in that call. Yeah, definitely. Find out ways to, it'd be good to try and get you involved. You won't be here, you'll be other side of the world. We zoom you in or something. Yeah, I reckon. Yeah. Yeah. That would be really good. Yeah. Um, so shall we do a card? Let's, yeah, sure. So you can actually shuffle the cards, which doesn't normally happen. Okay. Okay. Um, so if you shuffle the card, I was just looking at the, oh yeah. So they arrived the new, the Maori arrived. In the 13th century. Oh, right, okay. Between 1250 and 13. Oh, okay. That's more recent than I thought it was gonna be. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So was, so was anyone there before? So that's about 800 years. Um, the Maori Right. Which were another Polynesian tribe. And then there's even, um, tails of the short redhead people. Oh wow. And you know, some people say there's like deep under mounds, there's some old stone circles. Oh wow. And there's even some Maori tribes that do have this red hair thing going on. So whether they interbred with these people. Oh wow. So you think it's like maybe a, or possibly. I mean, you never know who else could have got there on a show, I mean, you know, or a boat or, you know, I'm sure there would've other been other travelers out there. Yeah. Yeah. So I'm not sure. And it's interesting'cause yeah, we dunno much about that. And, um, years and years ago I watched a documentary and it seems there was all these things, uh, like all this information coming up in our government, sort of like. Wasn't going to release info, any information. Oh, wow. Yeah. Especially this, um, where they thought this could be this underground, a bit like the Aztec sort of pyramid thing. Yeah. Under this wall. But um, but anyway, it was all closed, so, I dunno. But yeah, so I dunno anything. So there's just some tales, but the redhead is definitely there. That's really funny. You know, with some tribes. Yeah, yeah. Or, and, or, um, Neanderthal as well.'cause the erth was meant to be where the redhead team comes from. Oh. I dunno if that's true, but I mean, yeah. That, that's, that's a possibility as well. So it might have been even older. Yeah. So you never know who was there. But I mean, I think the land itself is definitely quite young. Yeah. And that's obvious through like, you know, just the, you know, just I guess like. Yeah. The type of trees and Right, okay. The depth of soil and that sort of thing. And that it's So, it's a recent like tectonic plate. Yeah. I think it, like in the whole, yeah. I mean, they do say scheme of broke off Australia Right. And all that sort of thing. But then also it's continuously pushing up. It's like two plates just pushing up out of the sea. Right. And it's sort of twisting and pushing. That's why we have so much earthquakes and um, and volcanoes and Oh, that's cool. You know? Yeah. Young, active, live land ego. Can you give that a shuffle? Alrightyy. And so this isn't a reading, it's just a universe telling us what we're gonna talk about. Okay, cool. So I'll go like that. And you just pick a card. Okay. Okay. For this one. Excellent. What we got there. Truce. Mm. So that's an interesting one. And that's kind of feels a bit like what we've been talking about, about how, how to find peace in yourself with all the different parts. Yeah. And how, and how we do create truce in a world that is currently at war. Yeah. What's your feeling on that? Like what do you think, I think is an answer to, to this? What's your answer to what's going on in the world at the moment? Uh, well, I actually think, yeah, this is quite interesting.'cause I think this is probably one of the most important things I think in my mind is, I guess truth. I wouldn't have thought of that word, but, you know, like unity or people coming together mm-hmm. Because I see so much is out to divide and create polarization. Yeah. You know, everything's extreme left or extreme right, or rich or poor, you know, there's a lot of extremities. Yeah. And as long as we're divided, we're easy to control and manipulate and feeling isolated. Yeah. You know, and so I think. It's the most important thing for us to come together. Yeah. And see our commonalities.'cause there's a lot more common things. You know, we're all people, we all love each other. We love to eat and drink and, you know, be merry and dance and sing and all of that. I think everyone loves to Yeah. You know, and get together. So, um, yeah, definitely. I think it's so important. So yeah. How, how do we do it? Yeah. I think forgiveness is probably the hugest thing. Yeah. It was my greatest lesson in life was forgiveness. Yeah, definitely. And uh,'cause I think if you are holding grudges against someone, you know, you're never gonna be free. You're always gonna be holding that weight. Yeah. And even in yourself, like Yeah. Um, I did a thing once where I went to an a vapa or a meditator for 10 days. Yeah. And um, and I really like. Because you could, if you wanted to, you could go to your room and meditate for bits of it. And I did like a couple of sessions where I did that and you ended up just sort of staring out the window, but time went so much slower than if you were actually meditating. Yeah. So it was easier to go in the hall and sit and meditate around other people.'cause then you didn't, you know, wander off and just start staring at stuff. So like, yeah, just sat and meditated and we were doing like 14 hours a day meditation for 10 days. Yeah. Wow. And all the way through, I had this pain in my shoulder. It felt like a three prongs going through my shoulders, like one point at the front and then three at the back. And no matter what I did, I couldn't like loosen it or get rid of it. Yeah. It was all like, the tension from my body had like oozed down my back, like melting wax. And then this was the last thing that was left. Wow. And on the last day. It was just, I think it was the last meditation. It was an hour that we were all doing together. And I was like, do you know what? You can do whatever you want. You can sit here and think you've done, you've done 10 days of meditating. And I just sort of let my brain just go. And I went off and started thinking about this, um, situation I'd had where we, me and my ex-partner had been wrongly accused of something. Yeah. And it ended up really blowing up way out of control. And it had become a bit of a witch hunt. Yeah. And it was quite a good lesson for moving here because it was a small community that that happened in, it was at the Tudor reenactment that I work at with Carra. That's their carra. Yeah. Yeah. Nice. And it was over nothing. It was over a coat. It was ridiculous. But it had like, people had gone to their grave not liking me. Yeah. Who had wrongly been told information about me. And it, you know, it really, really hurt. Yeah. And I've, in this moment just relived the whole experience as if I was in a movie. Yeah. Like I remembered every single second of it and I relived the whole thing and I got to the end of it and I was so full of anger. I was like furious. Yeah. And then I went and there's nothing you can do about it. Yeah. Like it's, it was years later. Yeah. And it was just like, there's nothing you can do about it. And I breathed out and my shoulder just unclicked. Wow. And it was like, oh, I literally had a chip on my shoulder. And it was so good'cause it was just like, oh, it's gone. Yeah. It's amazing that forgiveness doesn't have to be sort of literal where you are. Like,'cause you know, some things are, I mean that in ways that was unforgivable. It was rubbish. You know, it was really rubbish that, that that had happened. Mm-hmm. But it's still, all it's doing is damaging you. Yeah. That's it. Or holding it in yourself. You hold it and the person that you are angry at, probably, I don't care. They don't even know. Yeah, exactly. And then it's almost like the one, as long as you're holding on,'cause it's Yeah. They've won while you're holding on. Exactly. Yeah. I let go And now it doesn't, they don't, you know, I still see them and it doesn't, there's nothing there. Now. They don't bother me. No. That's it. And then it's like you're free. Yeah, exactly. So yeah, I think, and I think with everything that's going on in the world, I mean, I think there's probably gotta be justice for. You know, foot because it's hard to forgive if there's still injustice going on. Yeah. Because it's right in your face. And how can you Yeah. You know that, I mean, maybe people can and that's a real, yeah. Takes a high character to be able to do that. But yeah. Hopefully we can see some justice. And then the big job would be getting forgiveness. Yeah. To like help cleanse.'cause it, I mean, I just think of certain places now and war where there's so much like Yeah. Generational. Generational gen generation and generation years.'cause that was tension Crusaders was what the conquerors went off and did. So after William the Conqueror came to England. Yeah. It was the Norman Knights who then went off and did the Holy Wars. Oh. Didn't, that was the same guy. Yeah. And that's, that's a thousand years ago. Yeah. This is so old. Yeah. You know, this is so old this war. It is. So, it's crazy. Yeah. And yeah. How to forgive and move on and, and you know, I think about after the second World War and all the horror that happened then Yeah. There was so many amazing things that that happened afterwards. When people realized how bad things had gone. Yeah. And what people had done. Yeah. And that's where the NHS came from. That's where social housing came from. Oh yeah. When people had, there was no money. The country had no money and it was destroyed. It'd been bombed to pieces. Yeah. And from a place of no money, they created social housing in the NHS. Wow. So this whole story of like interesting needing money is like, it came from Zero Money. It came from the darkest hour. Yeah. And we were able to create it then, so. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Anything about it being money problematic is like, that's just nonsense. Yeah. And so at some point when a truce does happen, because fascism can't last, because Fascism's all about blaming other people. Yeah. But at some point, if you get your way and it's just you guys, yeah. You're gonna just suddenly realize that you still. I'm angry and everything's still shit. Yeah. Well this is, oh, I brought myself with me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm a dick. Yeah. Yeah. And not only am I dick, but I just did loads of really horrible things. Yeah. Like how do you create a utopia from that? Yes. That's not a place of Yeah. Of beauty. No, no, no. Yeah. So it can't ever last that long. No.'cause at some point, I think like 20, 30 years is the longest it's ever lasted. Yeah. And we're five years into it. Yeah. Now it's normally shorter than that. Yeah. So at some point people are like, hang on a minute, this is not right. Mm. But it's just how dark has it gotta get before, you know? And it's been very dark in the past. Yeah. So it's just hoping that it doesn't go that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's pretty crazy. And it's so global. I mean, I know it was a world War last time, but it feels like it's involving more, it feels more world wari, world wari this time because everyone's dragged into it by some degree. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's pretty crazy times. Yeah, it is crazy times. But I think you're totally right. It's forgiveness. Yeah, definitely. For us to be able to. And hopefully like Yeah, like you say, it was like, uh, what were you saying when before William Conqueror comes a thousand years ago. Mm-hmm. We had free land and all this sort of thing. Yeah. And we've all sort of been, I guess, conditioned into believing that we're all part of the system and these people tell us what to do. Mm-hmm. And then we have to do it. Yeah. But actually I feel like personally, you know, I'm more and more I just see politics now and I'm quite disgusted. Yeah. Doesn't matter what side of the No, exactly. The thing. I think they're all just, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't even go there'cause it's just so Yeah. But I think it's almost for us to just, um, build our own new w scratch a little bit by our own, build our own new boat and do our thing, you know? Yeah, exactly. For the good of the planet. For the good of the people. Yeah. And, and then, you know, we can create something good away from that system that's just on a rollercoaster ride of its own that's not going anywhere good. Really. Yeah. I think that's where my hope comes from, because. In a way, if you think about it as a story or as a game or a play. Yeah. Then how would we have gone from where we were 20 years ago where everything was very comfortable? Mm-hmm. And we had like mobile phones and we had internet and everything was great and we were like, oh, this is really cool at someone's expense. But they were over there and we didn't have to look at them. Yeah. And we were all very comfy. It's like a dog or a cat's not gonna move unless we force it. Yeah. And so for something to change and shift when people are comfortable, something has to happen. Yeah. That's right. And in a way, I feel like we've all met each other now, like the world's all connected. You know, there are a few tribes that aren't connected, but basically the world's all connected now. Yeah. The next step for us to, to evolve feels like for us to become the world. Like one world. Yeah. To become Gaia. To become, yeah. What's the name? And. Married. Oh, papa. Yeah. Yeah, Papa. Yeah. Yeah. Beautiful. Yeah. And just to be connected as one. Yes. Yeah. And to stop having these walls and boundaries and borders and all of that to be one, one globe, one community. And the only two things really that can make that happen would be a UFO attack. Yeah. Or a, a environmental disaster. Yeah. Because it, it would take us to all go, hang on, this is our planet. Yeah. For us to become one planet. Yeah. And so, you know, as soon as we don't have any aliens attacking us, I think the, the environmental situation is the situation. Yeah. That is the next step in our evolution. Yeah. Either we'll destroy ourselves. Yeah. But probably we won't. Yeah. And we'll come out of this going. Well, that was rubbish. And then we'll evolve into something better, you know? And yeah. And we've chucked AI into the mix as well. And who knows what's gonna happen with that, but like, you know. Yeah. Well there's a lot. Yeah. I think, yeah, that's definitely, and I think that is definitely seems to be the projection. Mm-hmm. And but I, I take that with caution too because, you know, I mean, it's interesting'cause now with, I know in New Zealand and America, we're very far right government, so it's like, ah, drill, drill or mine, mine, whatever it is. And so I thought New Zealand had a progressive government. Was that a woman? Uh, just, I didn't know. She, she, she, uh, left. Oh no. Yeah. And um, but they weren't good. They were just, they weren't good either. They were just puppets of the World Economic Forum. It's the border though. It's is, it's from one to another. And it was just, and, and that divided our country so much and we've got labor in now, and it was just Yeah. Appalling. And it's almost going to one extreme right to the other extreme. Yeah. And there's no middle ground. And, um, and that's really where most people wanna be is the middle ground's, the safer place. Um, yeah. And just, and it keeps everyone sort of happy, you know? Yeah. Because we can't be too, I mean, I'd love to be, you know, way more left and all the rest of it, but I also appreciate that that's to work for everybody. No. So you just gotta have a balance for, for if you're gonna be at that level, especially, you know, I don't know, because it, like within New Zealand things just go, nothing ever gets done because like, labor government wanted to do this and so they changed the education system, change the health system, change this, change that, and all the people working in the public services. So like, oh no, it's all restructuring. People are laid off and, and it's quite stressful. And now, oh, like, you know, oh, this whole education system is changing. And then the next government comes in and he's like, no, we're gonna change it back. Gosh, we're not doing this. And then so the people working, they're never actually able to do what they want to do. No. And everyone's getting burnt out and tired. Yeah. And exhausted. And stressed out. And it's just politics. It's so flippy floppy. Yeah. And there's no stability. Yeah. And it's just at the whim, like of America, a lot of what? Yeah. Or Britain and New Zealand we're just one of the Five Eyes Nation following along like a little puppy dog. Yeah, totally. You know? And it's just disgusting actually what goes on. So, yeah. Everyone's burnt out. It was, it was something I noticed at Glastonbury. Yeah. Like even the young people.'cause it wasn't just'cause I'm older. Mm-hmm. It was like no one had the energy to go out and party and dance the way we used to. Yeah. It was like everyone's tired. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone was so tired. Yeah. Because we were all like, what are we doing? Yeah. And I think the pandemic probably encouraged that as well.'cause we all stopped. Yeah. And then it was like, oh, what? We've gotta start up again and we've gotta work that speed again. Yeah. For you. Straight up. Yeah. I don't really wanna do that. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I quite liked when the deer were walking through London. That was quite nice. Oh yeah. Oh, I bet. Yeah. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie Rose. I love doing this, and it's a joy to be making this podcast for you, and if you enjoy it and you come back every week, then maybe you would consider supporting me with three pound a month, which is basically just a really lovely thank you. Or if you are able to afford more, then you get the videos for the podcast. This is a particularly good video because. This week, me and Ro were in the same location, and so it's a video of the two of us actually chatting to each other, uh, Glastonbury last week. The sound clips that you hear are actually videos, so you can see videos of Glastonbury, so it is a bit extra, and that's nine pound a month. So it's up to you if it's, it's one of those things that if you're able to do that, it would be incredible and I'd really appreciate it. And it means that everybody else gets a free podcast. So if you can't afford to support me, no problem at all. Tell people about it. Spread the word just. Just, and keep showing up, review it, star it, all that kind of thing. So I really appreciate you being here. I love making this for you. It's huge kisses and love to all of you and to my patrons. I really appreciate you supporting this so that everyone gets to enjoy the podcast. I will be, um. Holding a moon ceremony on Thursday night, and I'm also going to be at BoomTown this year. So if anyone is at BoomTown, do come and find us at the l la Luna Coven Venue. It's a secret venue, but you can find it. We're in Old Town. There's a moon symbol for it, and there's normally a pentagram on our door. I dunno if it definitely will be this year, but it will either be a pentagram or a moon. Uh, so come and see me at. That, and also I'll be in the opening ceremony on the origin stage. And then if you are in Suffolk or East Anglia, come to Kentwell Hall for the. A reenactment that's in August, which will be the week after BoomTown. So come and see me there and you can come and see me being a tutor. Highly recommend coming along to Kenmore Hall. It's incredible. It's in long Malford in Suffolk near Sudbury, and it's a few hundred people living as Tudors. And you get to experience Tudor life where you are all staying in character. And it's one of the only reenactments in the world that's done in that way where we are like first person in character reenactors, and it's just. Bloody magical. It's magical. So do come if you can, and otherwise, let's just go on with listening to this awesome chat with Roz, so on with a show. Here you go. Another card. All righty. That's good for this one here. Ooh, what's that? Futility. Futility. I mean, that kind of feels like also what we're talking about. Like what is, what feels futile? I mean, do you ever feel like you lose hope? How do you keep hope? What is it that you use to keep hopeful? Uh, I keep hope. I, I I am actually still really hopeful. Mm-hmm. I really, because I just see the good in people. Yeah. And like, say New Zealand being the example, like I see at our national government level. It's just, you know, whatever. I, I don't even want to go there'cause it's just a lot of bollocks really. But at the local government level or the local people on the ground are awesome. Mm-hmm. The majority are real beautiful. They really care what they're doing. And I think that's where you could make change at your local council, your local government. Yeah. And'cause you can work with the people and be on the ground. Mm-hmm. But yeah, and I work in Christchurch with loads of different people from like. You know, city council, health District to, you know, homeless people, to corporate groups, to young children, to university students. So you get to see all these different people from different walks of life. And what are you doing? What is it that you do? I teach permaculture. Right. And I look after this project in a city center, which is part of the Christchurch City rebuild after all the earthquakes. Okay. And, um, a lot of the city was destroyed in those earthquakes. And then the city council had some public consultations wanting to see what people wanted to see with the rebuild. Oh, wow. And ever all these organizations and people were, came together to say they wanted to see food resilience, um, because it's so important they saw that if our supply chains go down and the food can't get in, then we need to have is what local food growing needs about. Exactly. This is one of our most important thing. Yeah. If we look at what we need, we need water, and we need food and shelter, you know, our basic needs. And we've got to the point in the world where we are all relying on other countries for our basic needs. Mm-hmm. And we've lost our own like. You know, um, our own production within our countries Yeah. To support ourselves. Yeah. But that's what was great. This is one great thing about, I guess, like you were saying, with natural disasters or when things aren't so comfortable, people start to think differently. And so Christchurch was a great opportunity for, uh, or the earthquake was a great opportunity for Christchurch to Yeah. You know, change. So, so yeah. With those public consultations, some permaculture designers got together and designed a food forest and everyone brainstormed this amazing idea and they put forward the proposal and won the site for like prime inner city land. Which is just next to like the big cathedral square and the town hall. We're right there in the city center on the river. And um, yeah, we have this beautiful food forest, community garden, urban farm where we grow veggies and sell it at a market, uh, every Wednesday. And we've got this building being built with a green roof, compost toilets, solar panels, passive solar heating. It's all, it's permaculture design in action, you know? Yeah. And, um, yeah. So it's an incredible project and we just have loads of volunteers. We have, that's why we get all the corporate groups and schools come for education or volunteering and all groups in between. And we have, we work with like youth who, um, unemployed youth. Mm-hmm. Uh, the government will pay them to do courses with us. Oh wow. Cool. And um, yeah, so it's just very varied and we are right in town, so you've got a real mainstream audience of people and we're around like businesses and all that, and the amount of people who just. I so thankful for it to be there. They're always walking through like, oh wow, this is so beautiful. It's so great. You know? Yeah. It's an amazing opportunity to have an example like that in the city center. That's really exciting. Yeah. But yeah. That, that's come out of, um, the earthquakes, but Yeah. But so, um, so yeah, I get to work and yeah. I just see within all these groups, I just see really awesome people. Yeah. With big hearts. People are awesome that really care about the land and Yeah. A lot of people probably feel overwhelmed and they don't know what they can do, but Yeah. They do care. Yeah. And, um, it's the thing I loved about moving here. Yeah. Like, this is what I meant about meeting all the different types of people.'cause I loved living in Brighton. It was amazing, but it was just one type of people. Yeah. And we were all on the same page and it was an amazing page to be on. Yeah.'cause it was the most like out there, you know, liberal. Yeah. Inclusive, you know, when everyone goes on about nouns and pronouns. Sorry. Pronouns and, um, all that kind of thing. Like, they were literally at the forefront of like, yeah, this is, I'm gonna make a stand for being able to be a they or Yeah. All that sort of thing. And, and then, and that was wonderful. But then to move somewhere where I feel like we've got an exact cross section of society. You've got everyone from Biman to billionaires, like Yeah. Hanging out in the mermaid together. Yeah, I know. And I'm there behind the bar watching like, yeah, the BIM Man argue with a millionaire about how to train a dog. I'm just like, this is mad. Like, where else in the world would you see this? Yeah. And I love it. It's so, yeah. That's so good. It's so cool because you're like challenged by meeting and talking to people that you wouldn't have ever interacted with. Yeah. But that's what's so wonderful because it just, yeah, it does make you realize that people are all the same and that Yeah. And lovely and fun and awesome and Yeah. You know, there's a lot more good out there. Yeah. And I think there's a few, you know, really greedy, you know, bad people out there. Yeah. But even, I think the majority of the people, I think probably even on a day to day basis, they're probably still people you get on with, you know? Like it, I think people have moments where they do things that you're like, I don't like that you just did that. Yeah. But I sort of had times where I've hung out with you and. I had a laugh with you. You know? Yeah. That's sad, eh? People still need love. On the whole, I mean, you probably dunno about psychopaths, but Yeah. But I still think they wanna be loved and adored, don't they? And worship. So, yeah. Yeah. Everyone needs it. They do. To be exposed to more difference. Yeah, I think so. And it's interesting people Interesting. Oh, they are. Yeah. People always just be talking to the same people that are agreeing with everything, you know? No, that's right. Yeah. And having different ideas, you know, it's what makes it diversity, you know, all of this like, you know, interesting and, well, it's, monoculture is a problem wherever it is, isn't it? Yeah, that's right. Eh, don't want with your props, then it makes you weak. And if you do it with. Culture. It makes you weak. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Because I think that's the thing. We try and make everything a bit beige so that it's not scary and weird. Yeah. But that makes us weak. Yeah. Because then if something scary and weird, weird comes out of the left and suddenly you know, does something that you weren't expecting Yeah. Then you dunno how to behave. Yeah. Or what to do. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Whereas the more you are like open to things and interact with difference. Yeah. The more you realize that, that we're not that different. Yeah. And it's not weird and scary. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. You know, people aren't weird and scary. Even the weirdest, scariest person you met is like a really normal person who's like milk and tea sugars in their tea. Yeah. Yeah. This is it. I mean, this is right everyone. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Awesome. Yeah. That's really cool you're doing that. I, it would be really cool to get you to come and like share your Oh yeah. Knowledge and wisdom with us when we're doing the oil and plan stuff, because you care. Yeah. I would love to. Talk about the, um, gardens that you did over here.'cause you did. Yeah. Um, I designed the stocks garden, the permaculture garden there. Yeah. And here at Maison Palm as well. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And there was the award-winning one that you did with Jude, uh, behind, uh, the Mony. Behind the Mony. Behind the Mony. Oh yeah, yeah. Oh, that was, yeah. For SEM. Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I worked there too. Yeah. Yeah. That was, yeah, that was actually, yeah, one of my first big job, uh, food production job here. Yeah. Yeah. That was for, um, SEM when we had the market gardens here and we had the big fruit cage and all the greenhouses won those, we were producing loads. Yeah, we did, we won awards and yeah. I'm so sad that's gone. Yeah, I know. It's a show. Yeah. I haven't looked at it yet. Last time I saw it, it was very overgrown. Yeah. But yeah, I guess, and, and like that, those awards that we won, it was great and it definitely deserved it for all the gardens. But, um. But, and that's one thing, you know, I do, that's one thing too with like, I was gonna say with New Zealand political thing, the greenwashing mm-hmm. Thing going on. You know, I feel like some of those awards that were one at that stage was a bit of greenwashing. Yeah. Because you could see something going on somewhere, and then it's like, oh, what? Don't look at this rubber and plastic and all that. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I see that happening a lot like in New Zealand and in lots of places, you know? Yeah. With, um, like smart cars, these electric cars are really being promoted in New Zealand as the clean green alternative. Mm-hmm. But it's like Lutheran batteries. Yeah. And all the batteries and, and just still the infrastructure and all of that sort of thing and, um, yeah. And, and the metals. Yeah. You know, like with all this, like at the moment our whanau and my family and the Cook Islands are really, really involved with. Uh, protesting against the deep sea mining. Right. Okay.'cause all the ships are in the water ready to mine up the, these nodules that are on the bottom of the deep ocean. Right. And because they're full of, uh, you know, precious minerals that are used for smart technology mm-hmm. And for these smart cities and all that sort of thing that they're trying to implement, like New Zealand is one of the world economic forums, um, test pilots for some of this. Right. You know? Right. And so, um, and then they're trying to sell it in, in the light of Oh,'cause we're gonna save the planet this way. Yeah.'cause you know, you get all this technology and then you can see how much power you're using. You can see everything will be more efficient in all this. Yeah. But actually I see it as so much greenwashing. Yeah. Because the fact that we should actually be consuming less, not consuming more. Yeah. And you hear Bill Gates, someone like this, talking about online. Oh, I've seen interviews with him saying, no, no, we need to consume more because this is the way we're going to, um, save the world because we get all these smart cities. And the rich countries will pay for the poor countries to have all this infrastructure, but really they're gonna make, you know, more like surveillance cities. Yeah. Yeah. And they're taking, and why are we mining all these new precious metals when we're not even learning to recycle what we've already got in piles and piles of waste. Yeah. Yeah. But this, um, deep sea thing is, is a really big thing right now. And my auntie, who's, um, the president of this organization, it's like the, um, an environmental organization in the Cook Islands. Yeah. And, um, also, which is our family organization. Yeah. And, um, yeah, she's been over in Jamaica at the, uh, international, um, conference for Deep Sea International, uh, for the deep sea mining. Yeah. And it's just about to go, I think it's July the 30th. Is it July the 30th? Uh, no, July the 25th. No, it is July the 30th. Sorry. Um, all around the world, people are gonna have banners about hashtag you know, please, uh. Think deeply mm-hmm. Before we start mining these deep sea modules. Yeah. Because isn't it Trump that's just given permission for that to stop? Yeah. He's, he's like, go do it. Do it, do it, do it. And like a lot of countries are saying, hold because actually what, what they are intending to do, and there's a lot of boats, they're all there on the sea waiting to go, like in the Clarion Clapperton zone, which is up, um, east of the States and in the Cook Islands is a big place. So this is why we're at the forefront of this too. Um, yeah. So they go in and they'll use these big vacuum cleaners to suck up all these nodules, but along with it, they're sucking up all the silk from the bottom of the ocean and all these amazing worms that are like the bottom feeders. Mm-hmm. And anything that falls to the ocean, they break it down. And then they are food. You know, they're just part of the food chain. Mm-hmm. Which is a very important part of the food chain. Yeah. And also they have, um, scientists have found that these nodules. Um, produce deep sea oxygen. Right. And they also habitats Yeah. For these, all these amazing animals and creatures and Yeah. Corals that we have never known before. Yeah. And aren't they not carbon based? They're like sulfur based. So we are all carbon based. Yeah. But around these nodules.'cause they're like pouring out sulfur or whatever. It's, they're pouring out Yeah. The beings, the things that are around them are sulfur based. Not carbon based. Oh. Possibly. I don't know, but yeah. Oh, right. Something I saw David Attenborough, but Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. De definitely non, non carbon based life forms.'cause they've, they're life forms that have formed around this chemical and they've, they've taken thousands and thousands of years to develop or whatever, and so they can suck them all out. Underwater destroy the seabed, then they process it. Yeah. So then they have to wash them using chemicals. Yeah. And then that byproduct of the chemical washing water, the washing into the sea, back into the sea along with all the silt. Yeah. Which they, um, you know, distribute into the ocean. Probably about mid of, you know, half deep of, you know. Yeah. Which then creates a lot of like, um, bad water conditions. Yeah. So then the fish are like out of there.'cause they don't wanna be in all that. So Especially when it's got toxic chemicals in it. Yeah. And then all those nodules are gonna be shipped off. They're not gonna come to the Cook Islands to give them money. They're gonna be shipped off somewhere to be processed. And, um, but the, the whole, you know, them sucking all, all up is really noisy. Yeah. So it's like metal, you know, these little nodules going upper metal pipe. Yeah. So imagine the noise for all the animals. Like this is all whale migration, route dolphins, all of this. There's so much beautiful sea life that go around there. And, um, yeah, just everything about it is like. And, and knowing And also like the ocean is one of our biggest carbon storage sinks. Yeah. One of, you know, and so hold on. Aren't we meant to be looking after the planet now? Yeah. And you, you want the smart technology to save our world, but you're gonna go do something that could really, really damage. Yeah. We don't do and this is our do. Yeah. Should we not, we should really not be playing with this and we should be learning to recycle what we've already got outta the ground. Yeah. That's just piling and piling up. Yeah. As e-waste and all that sort of thing before we start taking things. We don't understand what the consequence.'cause there's always gonna be a consequence. Surely we've should have learned that by now. So yeah. Hopefully, hopefully, um, hopefully it will be stopped. But they definitely looks like, you know, full steam ahead on that one. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, you're all fighting, so, so to look out for that hashtag and Yeah. And if anyone wants to go to the coast, like, I think I'll make a sign when we go for the full moon. Yeah. We can just take photos and I'll just post it at the time. Yeah, that'd be cool. I'll make a big banner Yes. About it. That's great. And, um, and maybe tell other people, I think there's someone in Jersey who's helping to organize it. They're keen to get in touch as well. Right. So just, they want as many people around the world, um, with these banners, take photos, videos to post it. Mm-hmm.'cause I think it must be on the 30th of July, the final hearing. Oh, yeah, yeah. At the, in Jamaica, at the, um, international, uh, deep Sea Authority, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. So it's all going on there, but yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And it's not futile. That's the thing. I think people like often think, oh, there's nothing we can do. And it's beyond hope. But it is these small, it's, I mean, this isn't a small battle, but it's, it's fighting the battles. You have to keep fighting the battles. And our voice does matter because it really do, you know? Yeah. And that, I mean, it's like my auntie, she does so much amazing work and now she's getting to go all over the Pacific to talk about this, uh, to work with the scientists. She got to speak at this, um, in Jamaica at this international conference on behalf of like indigenous people in the Pacific. Oh, wow. And you know, and so she's getting to network and connect and there are, you know, a lot of countries that really back in the no deep sea, no to deep sea mining. Yeah. It's just, yeah. You've got people like Trump and Yeah. Even now New Zealand's behind it because we are just sucking up to Trump. Yeah. I guess in America. Um, yeah. But it's definitely, uh, the voice. Yeah. People's voices do matter. Yeah. You know, we do have so much power. Yeah. We have more power than we realize. Oh, so much power. But that's why I feel so much hope. Yeah. Because I think. I think we will come to an awakening.'cause I'm a lot like you seeing life as a journey. Yeah. And we've sort of discovered the lands now we've discovered the people. Yeah. And now we are like ready for the next evolution jump. And we can actually realize that we are free beings on this land, you know? Or children of this earth. And we're all brother and sisters custodians that look after her for the future. Yeah. And the more we can disconnect from the broken system. Yeah. Yeah. That's wonderful. Good. Oh, go for this one now. Ooh, la la. Ooh. The hanged man. So this one is about surrendering. Mm-hmm. So the hangman's surrendering to, to this awakening. Really? Mm-hmm. So it's like they're quite similar colors as well. It's going a similar vibe to it. It's like, yeah. Um, I mean, I, I talked about the vision that I saw at Glastonbury. It is like that other world, and I think that's the thing that separates us from ai. And there's part of me that's like, is it real? I dunno whether it's real or not. Whether it's just like, you know, what our brain does and where we we go to. Um, but yeah, I feel like the thing that I got from having seen that vision Yeah. And came away from that was that it's bigger than this. That this is just the story. Like the journey that you just said is like, this is just the stuff that's happening now. Yeah. But, but it's bigger Yeah. Than that. Yeah, definitely. And what, yeah, what's your relationship to that like? Yeah. Uh, yeah, I definitely like if when you say surrendering, I definitely resonate with that in the way that I feel like I'm very connected to our beautiful earth and I love it. And I feel very surrendering too. That's actually why I don't, I don't fear anything or worry about anything.'cause I, I really have a great belief in a great spirit or something like, you know, of love and mm-hmm. You know, interconnection with the earth. And I think, I think that's always gonna live on mm-hmm. You know, we may die, but the Yeah. You know? Yeah. No, that's right. We just wanna destroy ourselves. Yeah. Well that's it, eh, yeah. Yeah. And we're just a small part of this bigger picture. This bigger picture. Yeah. So hopefully we can do something good to help with the next generations, but I definitely, um, I just, yeah. I surrender myself to whatever's going on in the, you know, like in the world of this world. Yeah. The real world. It's beautiful mother nature and, you know, that sort of thing. Yeah. And just wanna do what we can to help, you know, help heal her. Yeah. And, and bring awareness to how we can care for her. Yeah. And also in doing that, because you know what we do to the land we do to ourselves. Mm-hmm. So like, that's why I love permaculture and teaching about soil and healthy eating.'cause it's not just about looking after the land, but if we do that, then we are healthy bodies and we have healthy minds. Mm-hmm. And then you've got strong, healthy people and you know, and then we can be, um, you know, thinking clearly and seeing what's real and what's not real. Things like that, you know? Yeah. You know, it's also interconnected, so. Yeah, definitely. And I guess if you're feeling overwhelmed and oh fuck, it's all crazy and all this wars going on and all that sort of thing. Um, yeah. Surrendering to something, something like God, nature, love, whatever you may wanna call it. Great spirit. Just something bigger than us. It's like a, it's a journey and a cycle. Like there's a saying, um, uh, you know, uh, the ancestors descend into the growing generations. Um. You know, so it's like the cycle of life. Yeah. That goes on and on. So say that saying again? Uh, you know, the ancestors descend into the growing generations. Yeah. Oh, cool. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, I, I sort of believe this. So I think like, yeah, just surrendering to what is and, and whatever we can do positive along the way, even if it's small things, surely will have, it's trusting it. Yeah. Trusting that it's all sort of happening as it's meant to. Yeah. Like whatever's going on is what's meant to be going on. It's part of the That's right. It is the plot that's unfolding. Exactly. And to just like, it's going with the flow, but also knowing that you have power and control within it. Yeah. So you have agency within it. Yeah. But you also are a character within a plot that exists. So it's a bit like being a character in a computer game. Yeah. Like you are confined to being within that computer game, but you also like. Can do anything within that game. Mm-hmm. And possibly could rewrite the code. Yeah. Yeah. That's something that we might, you know. Yes. Well, we might, we can, I'm, I'm very into rewriting the code. Yeah. Come on. We gotta rewrite this code. Exactly. Well, that's kind of what the nonsense and the chaos means. Yeah. Because it's like, it is, it is nonsense and it is chaos, but it's so much that, that actually anything really is possible. Yeah. And to really believe that because we do our inner world does create the outer world. It does. Definitely. You know, our thoughts do create our world. Yeah. A hundred percent. I mean, even just like. Like, I dropped a glass the other day and I was like angry there's no room left for us to put glasses. And it was, it was completely an accident, but I picked the glass up and it was like, we've got no room for this glass. And then I dropped it. in my inner world I was like, I kind of made that happen, but I also didn't mean to do it. Yeah. And, but it's that, like, that's just a tiny example of what we do, but our, what we are thinking happens, it manifests in and out world all the time. A hundred percent. Yeah. But that even includes like really far out ideas, you know, you can fully believe and go for Yeah. You know, complete love and peace and unity and Yeah. Or fighting, you know, the deep sea di deep sea mining. Yeah. And to be like, it's possible. It's totally possible to do that. Yeah. And you can change the world around you. Yeah, definitely. And I mean, even if you, even if it didn't work out. Like, so you weren't successful, but at least you've been a voice. Yeah. And you've said something which is better than saying nothing. Yeah. Because if, if we just to stay silent and let these things go, then what are we, we are just like muppets puppets. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Puppets. Muppets and Muppets. You know, let's go. We've gotta be like, okay, see what's happening and hold people accountable and at least speak up for our earth and resources and people that don't have a voice.'cause there's a lot of people out there that don't have, yeah, I guess I feel very privileged. I guess we're very lucky'cause we have freedom of movement. We have freedom. A lot of freedom. And there's a lot of people out there that aren't unfortunately in that same position. So, um, especially having their lands taken or polluted by, you know, big corporations and all that sort of thing. And yeah, if they try and speak up, they get killed because they can be, you know, there's all those things and yeah. So I always feel. Uh, like, uh, you know, I have this place of privilege that I get to be able to have a voice or mm-hmm. Or, you know, move about and speak or whatever. Mm-hmm. So I feel like it's important to do that. I don't think people ever see where they are in the privilege pyramid. Yeah. You know, it's like you can see the privilege of the people above you. Mm-hmm. But I, I think it's really hard to appreciate where you are with the people below you. Yeah. Because you're just blind to it, you know? Yeah. You can always look up and point the finger up Yeah. Yeah. And be like, you are doing this, you are doing that. But it's like, but also yeah, we, there's so many people beneath you Yeah. That, that, that would do anything to have your Exactly. Existence. Absolutely. Like, you know, just being able to move, you know, just, there's so many things for women, like in some places they're not allowed to be educated or drive or, yeah. Simple things, eh? Yeah. And we are very lucky to be able to do whatever we wanna do, really. Yeah. And have, you know, freedom. Yeah. So, um, so yeah, I think it's important for us to use that and also to acknowledge it. Like, if, if you're in a place where you are able to be free, I guess you have to know it yourself because you could be kept confined by your, your bitterness towards someone, you know, then you're not free or whatever that may be, that's tripping you down. Yeah. You know? Absolutely. So, but if you can get into that place of freedom and then, and like you say, manifest a reality, we want to see Yeah. And know, speak about it. Imagine it, think about it, talk about it, make it happen. Yeah. You have to imagine it. Yeah, you do. And we have to like keep going with that. Yeah. So that was the amazing Rolls Roll. I'm just so pleased that she had time while in soc to make the podcast with me. I would really like to get involved in creating the SOC plan and visioning and dreaming what the future of this island might be. And it's just all very exciting at the moment. Um, it, yeah, I just am excited about the possibilities of what we could create in a world that is otherwise just. Go mad. And so let's do something incredible and special and beautiful here where we are all on the same page and we are all inspired and, and yeah, care about what's going on. I always think the two things that are most special about SARC is our biodiversity of community and of nature. Like I don't want there to just be one type of person here. I like the fact that it's a perfect cross section of society. I think it's really important. I think it means that we are more, uh, resilient because of that. And, and also I think it's almost like a, like, I feel like there should be case studies or, or some place of, um, scientific research because it's so unique to have such a, a, an array in variety and all of society to some extent represented. You know, it's not all white. It's, it's not all straight. It's, it's got a mix there for 500 people. I'd say it's probably one of the most diverse communities I've ever been in. And. And we're all here and we're all getting on, right? Because humans are humans and it's incredible. So I think preserving that and preserving our natural, beautiful. Stunning island is, is key. And we just need to work out how we do that. Um, and, and that we're all in agreement and all supportive of it, and it feels right for all of us. And then take it from there. Um, and, you know, um, it just means that we'll then be sort of protected from people coming in, going what sock needs, which does make everyone's bum holes tighten. It's just like. Don't tell Sark what Sark needs. Um, yeah, I just think it's exciting for us to create something ourselves that we are all excited and inspired by. But anyway, that's enough time saying the word. Excited. That's me. Done. Uh, I shall speak to you next week and until then, see the anon.