#78 Love and Laughter; Saffron Issac and Thirty-Two Years of Friendship

This week on Nonsense in the Chaos, I’m joined by my best friend, Saffron Issac… a woman who has walked alongside me through more lifetimes than one.

We met as teenagers in a Tudor re-creation and have been in each other’s lives ever since, from free parties and muddy rave fields, to sharing a home at the turn of the millennium in Brighton, to slowly, fiercely carving out our own lives and callings. We’ve witnessed each other becoming, unravelling, rebuilding.

We even found ourselves side by side in the strange, tender world of IVF… her journey leading to motherhood and a now twelve-year-old, mine opening out into a different, child-free path. Two lives, equally full. Equally valid. Deeply intertwined.

These days, we keep our connection alive through podcast-length WhatsApp messages (you know the ones), and in many ways, this entire podcast has become an extension of our conversations… with Saffron very much at the heart of who I’m speaking to.

This episode is exactly what you’d expect… chaos, laughter, nostalgia, and a whole lot of love. A celebration of friendship that has stretched, shifted, and held strong through it all.

Come and sit with us and enjoy an hour of eavesdropping on two old friends who just can’t stop laughing.

The music and artwork is by @moxmoxmoxiemox

Nonsense in the Chaos is available on all podcast platforms or you can listen to it here… https://nonsenseinthechaos.buzzsprout.com 

I'd love to know what you think! If you want to get in touch with me about anything on the podcast then email nonsenseinthechaos@gmail.com or you can follow me on Instagram and Bluesky @kriyaarts or at the Nonsense in the Chaos Page on Facebook.

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Thank you for all your support -x-

Transcript

0:27

The. Welcome to The Nonsense in the Chaos. I'm your host Jolie Rose. This week I managed to convince my dear, dear bestest friend to join me for this week's podcast. And it was a real mission, mainly because of trying to get our lives aligned so that we were both able to be on call at the same time. Our worlds are very different now, And so it was a mission to try and find a time that we could both do. And also because it was a bit weird and scary, I think for both of us really, because we don't get to talk to each other very often. And. It was, you know, strange to be doing it via podcast even though as you were here, the podcast and lengthy WhatsApp messages are, are the main way that we communicate with each other these days. And so it felt apt. I just felt like I needed and wanted to, um, share my. Relationship and history with Saffron. So it's Saffron Isaac, I knew we were Saffron Chapman for many years, then she got married and now she's Saffron Isaac and I'm godmother to her daughter. And yeah, we've been through an awful lot together. So, uh, this is like a phone call podcast where you listening in on two friends, having a chat and a catch up. But it's feels special and I'm honored to have my darling friend here with me. So, Thank you for listening and, without further ado, I'd like to share my wonderful friend Saffron Isaac. Hello. You haven't got your video on, are you? Oh, I thought I did. Ah, I've got your name. No, I think I might have left all together now. I did have, it's turned it off. Hang on. Lemme just turn it on and then Yay. An overly person in the room. Has it gone again now? No, I can see you. Yeah. Yeah, it's working. You can see me. All I can see is, um. I can just see a big blue ball. Hello? Hello. Big blue ball. I'm just a big blue ball. Yeah. I can't see your face. Disappointed. Oh, that's a shame. Why can you not see my face? I dunno. But if I go backwards, honestly, this is, I'm so good at technology, just not this kind. Hang on, lemme go back and if I leave, I'm sorry. Hang on. No, that's all right. Are you still there? Still? It'd be nice if you can see me still. Yeah, I'm still there. And I can still see you. You, I can see you, but you are like as big as my little finger. So if I, oh, I see my little finger. I can see you. And then if I make you bigger, it says your micro is unmuted, your video is started. Sa Isaac is speaking. That's all fine. Oh, no. Now you've got me. You've muted yourself now. Oh my god, I don't actually care. Okay, let's just talk. Hi. Hello. Well I can see you. I go and sit. I can't see you. So annoying. Oh, I'm somewhere really pretty. I drove somewhere really pretty 'cause I couldn't be in my house so I, there were cows there. Wild. Oh no. Oh no, they're sheet. It's quite steamy. My windows are quite steamy. Can you see wild horses? Do you need glasses? Yeah. Yeah I do. I do need glasses. I think it's a bit, you can see a bit but can't see very much. There are wild horses on this bit of land, so one must come my window. Nice. Where are you? I'm on the goer. I drove for 10 minutes to Nice. Just find a quiet space where there will be no dog whining and no one coming in again. Whatcha doing? Just fit in nature, which is quite nice. I'm sure they're not just cheap. That one of those is a cow. They're cows. Yeah. Anyway. Aw. So this is Saffron. Hi. Hi. I'm gonna try and forget that we're being recorded. Yeah, no, totally. But I probably need to explain who you are a little bit. You are my best friend and we met when we were 13. I was 13 ish, 14, maybe a bit older actually. 'cause I was with Kester. Yeah. I think it was probably more about 15. You were 15 were you? When you came to Kentwell? How old were you? No, I was 17. So I was 15. 15. Yeah, that makes more sense. You were three years younger than me. Yeah. Yeah. So we met at Kentwell Hall and we met Dennis the same year I think. Did we meet Dennis straight away? Yep. Dennis. But some, somebody's just putting up possibly to tell me to get off their hands, but they yeah, we met a huge group of our friends that have become our permanent friends. We met them all that year. Really? Yeah. Um, and that would've been, oh, 77 At 17, that've been 94 would've, that would've been 1994. 1994. It's amazing. It's amazing. Yeah. 'cause I just did that, you know, the mum, what were you like in the nineties video thing that people are doing on Instagram and I did the weird a what were you like in the nineties? And I was going, yeah, I saw that. I saw that and it was interesting because it came at a moment where I was like preparing to do this and just thinking about the way in which we knew each other and the moment that we met and then suddenly there was all this visual, like, that's Joan. She was, oh, you're a baby. And we were babies. We didn't realize we were babies. No, we were fledglings, weren't we about her? We thought we were so grown up. We were so grown up. God so grown up. But also I think people did grow up younger then, because when I look at a 17-year-old now, or an 18-year-old now, and I think about like just how um, free we were and how mm-hmm. Um mm-hmm. Like how grown up we thought we were. Like I went traveling around the UK when I was 15 with Jo Ann, with Joe Fowler, and we went and visited Will and Kester in Cumbia, and I was in East Loathing at a party at Alison Scott's house when I found out that Kurt Cobain died. And so like, whenever I'm like, did I really go at 15? I always Google when Kurt Cobain died. And I'm like, yep, no, I was definitely 15 because that was definitely where I was. Yeah. And that's mad, like thinking of a 15-year-old now, going off and doing that seems crazy to me. So I think we, yeah, I think you had more, you did more cool stuff like that than I did. Like I, I wasn't allowed to go to parties in Scotland when I was 15. No, but you, you definitely had a bit more, like a bit more freedom. But we were going to London with Dennis, um, when we were like 17. Because that was before. Yeah, because I moved to Australia when I was 18 and we were doing all that. 'cause obviously I moved to Australia with Jasper. So yeah, we were going up to London to three parties when we were like 15, 16, 17. Yeah. Wow. Which is mad because I was working in the convent. I'd go work in the convent and go, go to a free party and then go back and work in the convent again. I know nun. So they were just like, and I was so much better on the Sunday 'cause I was so much more like, oh, go on. Tell me how much things cost in the war. Would you like a massage? It's a cuddle. Yeah. We had such an innocent face though. So they, they wouldn't have known what you were covered in glitter on the Sunday. Yeah. Yeah. Covered in glitter and UV paint. Oh, sweet. Remember Dennis used to always sit and paint us? She'd always sit and paint us in you. I do paint. Yeah, I do remember. And then I, I remember like actually seeing myself under UV light, 'cause she'd paint us and we'd be like, oh, well I can't really see it. I'm sure I look fab. And then seeing myself under. In the bar and going, oh my god, gonna war in absolutely nuts. Oh, has made a maniac. I can't believe how much UV I managed to get on my body. It was amazing. Everything from head to toe in UV paint, just everything. It was magical times. It was, but it's so long ago. It's crazy. It's such a long time ago. So we've been through such huge life journey together. We have known each other since we were young. We were there like kind of through. Parents breaking up and like leaving home and becoming like independent. We went from being kids and knowing each other as kids to becoming independent adults and then moved in with each other in Brighton, uh, which was hilarious because we'd all gone out with John who we met that year at Ken. Well, and then all of his exes moved into a house together in Brighton. He was like, I'm just never going in that house. Fair enough. And John, well, you wouldn't, would you? No. I'm not moving into that house. Um, and we had a brilliant time. It was so much fun. We had a year, didn't we? The three of us lived to, well, four with Sarah. Yeah. Lived together for a year and we were all fiercely independent women. And then had some time in Brighton. You went out with my brother for a bit Briefly and then, yeah. Oh, and then, so then you were sort of part of my family for a weird second, and then, yeah. You met Ben and you moved to Manchester and then we went through the whole IVF journey together and you ended up with a baby and I ended up not having a baby. And your baby is now 12. Is that right? Oh my goodness. That's crazy. And we were doing it at the same time, so I'd have a 12-year-old now as well if I'd been successful. 'cause it was you and Dennis. No, I think about that, yeah. Quite often. Really, because it was. Because there were the three of us, you, me and Dennis. And then me and Dennis were pregnant at the same time. And you were doing IVF and it seemed so obvious that it was gonna happen for you as well. Yeah. And then, yeah, and then when it didn't, it was just this huge adjustment that you had to make and um, and that, you know, Dennis and I were making a different kinds of adjustment as well. Yeah. And it was sad at the time, but then now obviously like your whole life would be completely different. I'd be all like, not all. I don't mean to don't be all. Well, I would be very in love with my child and it would've be the best thing I've ever done, but I would be stuck with Evelyn. I would be connected to. That's the bit, that would be awful. You'd be forever stuck with that. Yeah, he would be the baby daddy and I would've had to have put up with his way of bringing the child up as well forever. And it would be a nightmare. And I wouldn't be here. I wouldn't be in Sarrc. I wouldn't have met Diz. No. Like none of this happened. Wouldn't had freedom to like just leap and go. I'm go try this island because I like the nature since. Yeah. Ellie's just moved over, you know? Um, my friend Ellie from Glastonbury, yeah. She literally arrived yesterday because she's also not her kids and isn't, is decided she doesn't want to have children and she's just gone. I'm gonna come and spend a summer being a, a seasonal worker in soc so she's come to be a chef in SOC and is living with us in our house for the summer. So that's really nice. Got two chefs living with you. They've got two chefs living with me. I'm like, I'm gonna get really far. I'm ready. Go with it. Just go with it. Yeah. My hormones have completely changed. I'm totally going through the menopause now, like, absolutely. Yeah. Not, there's no question about it because like for years you're like, oh, is this perimenopause or is it the pandemic? Like. I'm, you know, why am I tired? And then now it's like I'm just bleeding all the time and it, everything's gone haywire. So, um, it's definitely happening in my experience, the bleeding all the time thing doesn't last very long. Well, it lasts a little while and then, and then you just move into like a different phase of it. Yeah, it's like a um, like the hormones and the kind of confusion and they're like, why have I in this room and all that stuff. Mm-hmm. But the bleeding bit isn't eternal because, no, it's stopped now with the HRT. So it started getting HRT and, you know, I had an underactive thyroid. Did you know I had an underactive thyroid in my brain, which apparently can be an A DHD women with A DHD going through the menopause can suddenly get a thyroid. Things happen as well. But yeah, it's fine. I'm on this thyroid medication that's like slightly. Energizing. Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, nice. Oh, yeah. Because that's what you need. Yes. What I need is more energy. Apparently my body wasn't keeping up with me. Oh no. But the big change, the big change for me is if I could, I would stop doing everything for at least a year. And, and I said that last night. Everything. What do you mean? Just everything, like having to do anything like ceremonies, articles, putting on festivals, all of it. If I could just stop everything for a year and just sit outta your mind. Well, that's exactly what Eddie said last night when I said that. She was like, you'd last about three days and then you'd be bored. And she quoted you, because I always quote you when I said, oh, I'm gonna move to the countryside and, and like live a calm life. You were like, you'll be entering jam competitions within seconds. And it's exactly what's happened. I've moved here and I'm busier than I've ever bloody been. Yeah. And that's just, that's the world you create around yourself. And I've always really just enjoyed. You do like the world you create around yourself and you've always done it, and I've always followed you and gone, where are you going? Whatcha doing? Because it's fun. You create a fantastic sort of buzz around you. And I always thought I'd follow you or you'd follow me, and now you're miles away. I know. I thought you would as well. I'm like, come here. You're like, come here. No, you come here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to stay here now. I think probably for the next eight years I have to stay here. But actually I really love it. I really love Swans. It's a really lovely friendly community and um, that's great. It's beautiful and uh, and, um, you know, my child is growing up here, so it feels like her home, so I may just stay here, but has she got a well accent. No, no, no, no, she hasn't. When she first came though, she had an American accent and so she's got rid of that, which is good. Yeah, that's good because where have you lived? Talk a bit about all the places you've been. So the place that she got her American accent from was the, um, international school in Ethiopia. So that's where we were immediately before coming back to, um, coming back to Sponsee. So yeah, we were, we left the UK in 2010 and we moved to Bangladesh and it was just me and Ben and, um, we were trying for a baby. So that was quite a lot of, you know, it, it's quite fun, but also quite like, when is it gonna happen and all of that feeling and, um, but it's our only post in the end. If I, if I'd been, if I'd known that I was going to have children in the future, I would've spent less time worrying about having children in the future. But at the time I think I was just like. Oh, I was anxious about never having children and trying to kind of adjust my expectations of reality. So there was a lot of like sitting by pools and drinking gin. Far, well, far more than there ever was in any other of my life since then. But, um, and going out and meeting people and actually going to events and meeting people, um, from from Bangladesh and having Bangladeshi friends and, um, going to yoga classes and that being invited to kind of, stuff with people. And then subsequent posts, like after we left Bangladesh, we went to Egypt and and then I left Egypt for a year because I went back to the UK and then we had IVF and then I got pregnant. And then during the time that I was pregnant there was, um. The Muslim Brotherhood were overthrown, so there'd been a revolution ever before. And then the Muslim Brotherhood took over and then the country said, no, we don't actually want that. And so then, um, when the Muslim Brotherhood were overthrown, that's when I was due to go back to Egypt. I was pregnant. I don't wanna go. I gotta watch and stay here with my mom. Not going Fair enough. I stayed there. Yeah. So I stayed in Essex and um, did some work at my mom's office. And um, and then after that we had our baby and she was amazing. And it lasted 61 and three quarter hours. My labor slimy. My god, I know so long. That's, that is such a long time, isn't it? Oh my God. I know there were periods of sleep within it and I mean, the beginning was, I, like, I would sleep and then labor and then sleep and then like that. And then it was just like hours in a bath and. And then on the bed and like it was, it was nuts. It was just days. It was days and days. And um, and then I had my baby and then within eight weeks we had gone back to Egypt. So Nell's first passport photos when she was five days old and she's got my pen was holding her up and um, she's got like cardigan, his hands were inside their cardigan, holding her up like that. She looks like Phil Mitchell, who completely bald. She had to keep it until she was five and she didn't look like that anymore. Oh, brilliant. And then we went back to Egypt and stayed there for a little while. And then we went to Pakistan. And then we lived in Pakistan for a couple of years, and that was two between the ages of one and three for now. So she was like a toddler and we lived on a compound. And, uh, that was, I mean, it was. It's like Tory Butlins in 50 degree heat. That's what it was. It was nuts. A really nuts experience in hindsight. And I did make some really lovely friends and I've hold the held onto some of them. But far fewer. With each posting, I've come away with fewer people that I think, right. I love you. And I'm staying in cent with you from Bangladesh. I had a list of about 30 people where I was like, I'll love you forever. I'll never stop communicating. And then, um, in reality, that was fizzled down to about four over time. And um, yeah. And then from Pakistan there weren't quite so many did harvest quite as many in that, in that world. And then, um, and then we went to Serbia for six months and then we went to Ethiopia and then we came here. So Swan, because actually the pandemic meant that our time in Ethiopia was cut short. And our long-term plan had always been to come to Swansea. And then it was just the plan. 'cause we had no other. Overseas sort of plans. Were coming up. At that point, the British Council completely changed shape. That's where Ben works. My husband works. Mm. And so then we had to come home and like create a life in in Sponsee and it was so nuts, yeah, just coming back and going Right. Then this group of people, and I've been approaching the world in this like right, everybody's here to make friends. Then are they like in, in those kinds of communities where everyone's transient, everyone's really sort of Todd on the table. I'm looking for some friends, this is what I'm doing. And then a sort of quiet, rural Welsh people known each other forever. They've known each other forever. Their grandparents know, knew each other. And that, I think I just I met I met one man who I got on with and I was like, alright, I found someone I can stand and talk to. And then I met his wife as well. And they have become my dearest friends and their daughter is now so close to my daughter that they call each other sisters because they're, they're so good. And, um, uh, we are in a van together. Those are the two people I'm in a vans with. Cool. So I did find my people, but I felt like I just derived and went, oh, who's this crazy English girl? I know, I know. I've got, I. I pitched it completely wrong. It's just like, I'm not finding my people. Where are my people? And then I gradually like met one person, another person, another person, and drew people into me and realized like that my whole experience of going overseas is completely altered the way I connect with people. And, um, the people that I, and, and that I connect with. I really love them. I really like want to be with them and spend time with them. And that sort of it's changed the way I approach people and life in general. 'cause it's, my life is now all about connecting with people. Because that's actually the thing that I find makes me feel most at home is when I find some people who I like and who like me and who we can laugh. I like the laughing thing. Like that makes me feel like, ah, we're friends. Ah, we find a mate and you laugh with them. Yeah. It's weird here. The, um. Friendships are quite transient and you have to like, um, and the dynamics move around all the time. So you have, I was talking about it with Ellie last night because I was kind of giving her the rundown of like, things you're gonna have to get used to small talk's. One of them, like you will have an opinion on tractors, the weather, gossip 'cause that's just all there is to do. And you're talking to people that you don't really have much in common with, but you're all together all the time. So you will just find something to talk about because otherwise, you know, you're not gonna, you definitely don't wanna talk about their politics or like, you know, don't wanna pick too deep because you're probably gonna end up really not liking them. So it is best to kind of keep things a bit surface, but then friendship groups just move around constantly because it's actually a really transient group of people. Even though you think, oh, it's this fixed 500. It's not the five hundreds actually, you think about Kentwell, it was never the same group of people every year. You'd have some people that were the same each year, but someone knew would come and it would completely change the group and it would change who was hanging out with who and who was going out with who. And it's like that. And you might have people that haven't been for a few years, but then they come back and their family and people who know them know them really well. And they know them better than they know you, but they haven't been there for the whole five years you've been there 'cause they've been off having a family or whatever it's they're doing or at university or whatever. So yeah, things move around constantly. Which is interesting 'cause it's, it means that it's not boring, like you're living in this one place, but it's not dull 'cause everything's always shifting. But also, yeah. Also population is about 500. Is that Yeah, it's 500 people. Yeah. 500. I swapped ears. Just as you said the number, but I thought you said 500. Yeah, but it's really not. That's really tiny, isn't it? It's tiny, but it's not fixed. It it definitely, mm. It's much bigger than that because it's not, it's moving around. It's not the same 500 every season. Even, winter's different to summer. You get new seasonal workers every year. That shifts everything around. Like me now having Ellie here, that's completely changed my o opera, whatever the word is. Opera operandi. Yeah, modus Opera. Opera. Opera. Opera. Yeah. That's it. Because now I've got a friend, you know, I've got a friend who is my friend and I, I do have friends here, but like Charlie was my friend and is still my friend, but she's just had a baby and she's moving to Albany, so I'm not gonna see her anymore. She's gonna be gone. And that's really sad. But Ellie's here, so that's kind of. Kind of filled a void that would've been felt otherwise. And like I went away with, was your personality actually having all these having that transient, um, yeah, in a way, in a way of people around you? Yeah, but I do also really like my deep friendship. So it is the thing that, it Brighton, we spent and it was against my character. To stay fixed somewhere for as long as I did in Brighton to be there for 20 years, although I left and came back again. But, and the group try, the group shifted. It was our group that was very kentwell based and then that formed into the next group, which was the more sort of I, Adam but then also Evelyn, that kind of Jimmy and Mish and, all of that lot. And yeah, they're part of the group that's still there now, but that became the kind of people that we met through Darryl and RO getting together and all of that lot. So yeah, it just sort of turned into but sticking around and dealing with the icky bits and it not always just being the like, fun, just met someone. Oh, you are great. Time, like the honeymoon period to actually get past the honeymoon period and do the sticky bit has been really useful. It was a really good life lesson for me. And they're, they're my, they are my deepest friends. Like you are Dennis's. We've been through so much together and yeah. Yeah. So I do miss not having that here because the people here do have that with each other. And I'm just kind of in the mix. But I, because I know I've, I've got my foundations, they're just elsewhere. It's like I've grown a really long tree bit and it's just gone all the way over here. But I still do have my roots and my foundation really firm and deep. So I feel supported. And even just Brighton as well, like knowing that there's a whole city that thinks the same way as me, that I'm not weird compared to them. But it doesn't matter if I'm weird here 'cause I'm like, yeah, but I'm not, I'm not on my own. I'm not the only person who thinks like this. It's just here. I might be, but I'm not in the world. Yeah. That's funny. It's not living in Brighton together. And at that time of of it was my, because I moved there to go to university and then stayed there for another three years afterwards. And it was, it was when I was young, I associate Brighton with being young. 'cause I was, I was still forming. It's still in the sort of recently fledged area, era and living with you and stuff. But, um, yeah, it was, it's such a spectacular place to be and I really, really enjoyed it. But I think because my departure from Brighton, it felt quite sudden really because I was loving it and really, really enjoying it. And then Mary, my stepmom died and um, I went home for sort of three months to go and be with my family while she was in the hospice. And then I came back to Brighton. I was like no. This is a pleasure based city and, uh, I'm not in the mood. And just, and that was the point at which I left and went and went to go and like find a different life. And I didn't even know what I was gonna do when I left. I just went, I can't, I can't be here anymore. Yeah. Because at that point we were all still in the thick of going to three parties at the weekends. And um, and that was the point at which I was seeing Nathan as well. Your brother Nathan. Yeah. But the whole kind of like going out, having fun doing. Fun. Like just, it was not, it was not what I was in the mood for at that point. No, I don't want fun. I want to go home and cry. I wanna drink tea in a chair. Yeah. And I just felt like this kind of completely different version of myself emerging as I left Brighton. And then, um, on the day that my brother and my dad came to pick me up and, um, and they they were so fast. They just came in and I was like, oh, I'll, I'll probably be packing all day. Like, I'll just put this in this book, this in this book. And they came in and they like stooped up my life. Got it in a van. Within an hour we were on the road. And I would just remember like driving out of Brighton, holding my Brod plant on my lap and crying. Crying because it was so dramatic. It's excellent. It was also the right thing to do and it just, I just felt like I kind of gotta go. I don't, I dunno how or why, but I have to just go and then, yeah, and did and then, and then I, I went to Essex for six months and went What doing here? I spent 20 years not to here. I definitely don't wanna be here. Exactly. And then, um, Leon, my friend from Manchester, she came to visit me and she said, you know what you need, you need a bit of northern grit. Uh, she's our friend from Essex obviously, but she had moved up to Manchester and then she came down and said, you have never lived outside the southeast of England and you need a bit of northern grit. It'll be good for you. She said, I'll find your room and house and if I find you one, just come and stay. 'cause she was living in this area that was quite cheap. And, um, she just said, just come and, come and see if you like it, and then get a job through an employment agency and just try it. And then I'm so glad that was such a good piece of advice, like yeah, thank you. And it was well because that, that was kind of what I did in reverse. 'cause I went to university in Nottingham. Yeah. And I was there for you in Nottingham. Yeah. And I was there for, for more than just the three years. 'cause I think I was there a year before, 'cause John was already there and I was there for a year before with him. And then I lived there for a year after. So I think I was there for five years in total. And although it wasn't totally north, it was Midlands, I still had yeah. It was still the outside of the southeast. Yeah. It had that more northern edge to it. Which I do definitely, I, I definitely felt like that was a good thing to do. And we'd come down to the parties in Brighton and we're like, I really wanna be in Brighton, but I'm also having a nice time up now. Yeah. So I swapped and came down. I didn't mean to be in Brighton for 20 years, like. I loved it. You just tripped up and slow over. I did. Well, it was, it was partly 'cause I met Emlyn just as I was leaving. So I met Emlyn Oh yeah. When I moved to London and I was in London for a year and he came and lived with me for a bit and then he was just like, should we go to Brighton? 'cause he'd only just got there. So he was right in the middle of the honeymoon, like the start of the honeymoon. And I just went, alright. And then I ended up having a second Brighton honeymoon because I was involved in his honeymoon. So it was like, actually this is, and we did have an amazing house, you know? That Studio Wonderland was incredible. Oh yeah, that was lovely. So, yeah, and I was away all the time with the Fools, so it didn't really work with me being in London because in London. There isn't that fixed community. It means that me going away so much and then coming back, I didn't have people to come back to and I didn't yeah, I just didn't have that. Like, everything's easy. I know where it is, you know, it was just a, a mission. Everything was a mission 'cause I didn't, I'd have to find a place to go buy a thing, you know? It was just, everything was annoying. Whereas in Brighton, I knew where everything was. So it ended up working really well as a base, didn't you? Yeah, it was a good base. Um, and it meant that Emlyn had people around him was having a fun time when I was away. You know, he had his people. So it just ended up working. And then I did really appreciate the sort of more deeply ingrained friendships that came from sticking around. But it was the graveyard of ambition, wasn't it? That's what people called Brian graveyard of ambition. You just ended up like staying there and having a nice time rather than getting on with you. Like, whereas everyone who left it felt like they went off to like forge their careers. And Dennis did and Seth did and, and people did. But I think not. It is interesting 'cause even like Steve Glacier did quite well, it's just interesting how we were a very ambitious group of people. Like it was very much part of who we were as young people. 'cause I know loads of young people in Essex and. Just generally you meet people around the place that it's not normal for people to be as ambitious as we all were. We were. We were all like it was a given. We were gonna do, we were gonna be somebody and do something great with our lives. And we the time as well. It's the nineties. It was the nineties. So I think we felt but it was also our group. 'cause it's not like everyone in Braintree was thinking like that. Like me and my brother were quite different from everyone in Braintree. 'cause we did feel like we wanted to go out and do something. We were the only people we knew that went to university. Yeah. Yeah, it was, it was good. I mean, I thought it was great and I think we all went and forged interesting careers and did interesting things with our lives, but I don't think any of it turned out how we imagined it would. No. I think it's interesting. I'm, I've loved every second of it all, but yeah, we were really fortunate. We were so lucky. To be born at that, at the time that we were with the personalities that we had, and then to find each other as well. Yeah. I think that we were, it was like we had an ally as soon as we met, we were one another's ally. Yeah. And then, um, you went off and did something different. So you weren't in Brighton for the first three years of me being there, I think. And then you were, but you were always my ally. Whenever, or whenever you, we used to come up to Laham, go to your parties and then you could just you were mine. You've always been my journey. Yeah, totally. Yes, exactly. It's been really nice to like, spend time with Piscean, like, 'cause Charlie's a Piscean and obviously my mum is, and so are you. And I'm always like looking at them going, oh, that's why Saffron does that. I do think it's so weird the way you group me together with all the same people who are born in the same month as me, and you're, oh, you're so secretive. It's because you're a, oh, you're a, because I'm hair ass. So I do, I do get it. I do, I do observe uh, similarities as well in other, you know, people who are born at similar times as me. And then I've got lots of Aquarians and lots of aqua. I've got, um, three Aquarian brothers and lots of aquarium partners. And my daughter's an aquarion. And you know, I have lots of, um, connections with Aquarians and I, you know, I don't read about it. I don't. I don't subscribe to it, but I can't deny that there are a lot of aquariums in my life. Yes. It's weird, isn't it? Like when I lived in Brighton, all of my friends were from Octo, uh, Scorpio basically. So from September, October, well October through to March, so everyone's born in winter. Like I have 6, 7, 8, like good friends coming up on Facebook every day throughout that period of time. And it's ridiculous to the point where I just thought that that's where most people were born. And then I Googled it once, most people are born in August. I was like, I literally dunno, anyone born in August, like, what the fuck? And then I came here and it's like I've flipped the, the wheel and everyone I know is born from March through to September. So I now I've got all these people in my life that are like Libras and Virgos and Leos and that and tourists. And I'm just like, huh. And, and it's interesting because I didn't have them before that, I'm like getting to know the signs because I'm like oh, right. That's a Libra tray. And what's also weird is. In my previous life I had Nathan and Roe and Lin all born at the same time. And here I've got Ellie Diz and Ash all born at the same time. So it was like, I seem to have my partner and my husband be on the same day as one of my best mates and like another best mate be right kind of next to it because it was, it's just, yeah, it's just weird. It's like why is it always in threes? I have like my husband and two other people born at the same time just to really make sure I don't forget my husband's birthday. It's kind of handy. Yeah, it's weird. And then there's also a thing of like, my birthday's on New Year's Eve and all my things line up like my mom's birthday's the same week as Mother's Day. Just things like that. It's like everything lines up. Is that, is it? If you're born on New Year, everything lines up. That's handy. That's just silly. That's my brain. But yeah. We should pull some cards. Let's pull some cards. If you enjoy this podcast, then please consider supporting me on Patreon, which is patreon.com/jolie Rose. When this comes out, it will be the day before Beltane, which is really exciting. Although it does look like it's going to be raining, which is a bit frustrating. But we shall keep our fingers crossed. We're doing a dispatch show with, Sharman Ben and, Claire Cole, who was in the interview that I did a little while ago about her time where she works with horses and we are gonna do an offering to the. To patch of Mama to Mama Earth and to the gods and to the Celtic gods, and just pray for sunshine and good weather. It's been such a glorious month, and then it looks like it's gonna rain, which makes getting ready for. It's all a lot harder. I've come down the cold today as well. so makes it a bit difficult 'cause I've got sore throat and the last thing I feel like doing is spending a whole day running around and trying to put on a festival in the rain and it's the second year in a row that's been wet. So it does make it extremely frustrating, however. It still will be worth it. It's an, it's a, a beautiful celebration of this incredible time of year, of springtime. What an honor and a joy it is to be alive in the most beautiful planet, in the whole known universe. And we are so lucky to be here. So I am also privileged to be. Celebrating Beltane with wonderful people on my favorite little Paradise island. So that's not much to complain about in the grand scheme of things. And then once that's settled and we've packed down, I will start advertising the Witch Fall U course where I support people to find their archetypes. it is the most profound work I've ever done. It drills deep down into who you are, why you're here, and. Magic and reminds you that you are a work of art and that you are a work of magic. So if that's interesting to you and something you would like to know more about, then watch this space and I will be sharing more information in the next few weeks. So thank you so much for being here. I appreciate you listening. If you are unable to support on Patreon, then please do tell people about the podcast. Word of mouth is everything. And. yeah. If you sign up through Apple, then make sure you do it through the website and not through the app on your phone, because otherwise Apple greedily steals loads of the money and that's not really fair. So sign up through the website of Patreon if you are an Apple user. Uh, but whatever you're able to do makes a huge difference. I really appreciate you listening and being here, so thank you. Sending you much, much love. And now on with the show. See you. So you are not gonna be able see, you're not gonna be able to see you. No. Lemme just, um, lemme do the thing where I send it backwards. Hang on. Because then I can see Tiny you or can I still there? Tiny. I'm you tiny Me? Yes. I can see you. Yeah. Hello. Hi, tiny you. Hi tiny. So there'll probably be a bit of a lag, but if I put my finger up and you can just say Stop when you want me to stop and we'll see what the universe wants to stop, stop. Oh, sorry. Your hands slide. I was like at your neck. Yellow teeth. They're all white. There's actually one gold, one That one's gold. Oh, it there. You can sort of see, but yeah, one gold teeth and then they're all white teeth. Yeah. You know, because Why not? Okay. I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready. Right. So you say stop. Stop. Cool. Yeah. Excellent. Ooh, it's the Prince of Wands, who's this dude. He's on like a chariot. Um, and it's very like liney. There's lots of lines. So it kind of feels quite energetic and he is cutting through stuff. So with the swords, it's to do with the mind and thinking. So do you feel like you are, I don't learning lots or cutting through kind of brain foggy, because that's what it feels like. It feels like you're kind of charging through, trying to break through something kind of intellectual. So it's to do with heady thinking type stuff. Well, and that's, I am very heady at the moment. Yeah. I'm at a point where I'm, i'm quite busy in work, and so I'm kind of just churning, churning, churning all the time. And, um, yesterday I was on my way for a swim and I just thought, oh, I can't wait till I finish swimming and my brain will shut up. It's a lot noise in my brain, so, yeah. Might relate to that. I'm, I've got a very noisy brain and I, I Do you do meditation or anything like that? Do you meditate or anything? No, no, no. I'm at a point in life where it's really difficult to carve out quiet time. Like, hence sitting in a car on hill to try and have a private conversation. Meditation is a, this is I think in, um, tenure time I'll look back and I'll, I'll be nostalgic about this period, but this is just one of those periods that's just so busy. Like it's, there's no time for there's no time for meditation, although that is traditionally when they say that is the time to meditate isn't probably need it the most. Yes. You haven't got time to meditate. Yeah, you definitely need to meditate. Like, that's what you need. And, and so, um, yeah, I definitely, I've got a very busy mind at the moment. Yeah. I don't, I, you know, I get up at six and my day begins at six and I start like doing tasks. I walk the dog, I like do some stuff for the lunches, and then I walk the dog, uh, take the dog out, take my dog to school, come back, start working, finish working, cook the dinner or do something to do with dinner or walk the dog again. He's quite big dog. And then I, I basically cooking or sitting down I, I don't sit down, sorry, until about seven o'clock, seven o'clock most days. But I start at six, I sit down at seven. That's 13 hours of just constant, constant. And then that's most people's lives that was in it. That, you know, that's the reality of working and having a child. So, there's just no kind of pause or reflection. Yeah. At the moment when, when there is, I really enjoy it, but I have to squirrel myself away and sit down and, um, and write writing really helps me to sit and reflect actually. Yeah. Um. I don't get to do it very much. So, yeah, very heavy, very busy. Yeah. I love that you were a writer as well. That was one of the things that we've sort of shared a passion for over the years of writing. Yeah, I really love, I'm not writing, I wish it more, I'm looking forward. Yeah, well I do too. I'm looking forward to everything calming down. My brain is absolutely screwed right now. Like, I can't wait for Beltane to be over. I kind of wish it wasn't happening, but I'm also looking forward to it. It's gonna be nice. But I mean, I had a week this week where I could have done something for Beltane, done nothing. It's in two weeks time and like I'm so overwhelmed that I've just literally done nothing. I've just been like, I've got loads of things I need to do and they're really important. They get done. I'm not gonna do any of them, but there's loads of like complicated sort of emotional relationship stuff of people being dicks. I'm kind of waiting for the right time to speak to them so that they say yes rather than no. And just trying to like, oh, there's just so much nonsense to negotiate with it all. Um. It's not as clear cut as me just booking up a supplier to do something. The supplier is a person that I know that's got maybe some issue with me at the moment for no reason as well, just politics or like, whatever it is. And I've gotta wait for the right moment to catch them, to hope that they will say yes. 'cause they could just say no. And it's just like, oh God. So yeah. It's not as simple as just putting on a festival. I mean, it's never gonna be simple to put on a festival, but it's got an added layer of complication that you literally know all the suppliers. You are gonna have to do this every year for the whole of your life. Like, I'm not going to, part of me is well, next year I did sort of, intend to put on two more festivals as you do. I'm not gonna, I'm gonna do two different ones. I'm gonna add to the mix and now I'm kind of, yeah it's interesting 'cause the menopause is just sort of making me just go, do you know what? I can't be bothered. I just can't be bothered with any of it. So, I dunno, I'm not sure. I'm not sure whether I am going to do it at the moment. I'm gonna have to just see how things go. I need Betain to finish and I just wanna be able to relax and uh, 'cause I do a morning practice. So I do 20 minutes yoga and I'll meditate and I'll pull a card. And when I'm in my place, like when I'm well and everything's going well, that's what I do. Mm-hmm. And I need it so badly at the moment, but I can't, there's nowhere for me to put the yoga mat down 'cause there's stuff everywhere and we're in the middle of meeting. Yeah. And, and that's why I'm doing a really good job of not, of procrastinating and not doing any work for Beltane. 'cause I'd just start unpacking something or packing something. Yeah. Yeah. Like I had half an hour this morning, I could have done something instead I hung some clothes up. I just like, I've got really good A DHD excuses for not doing the work. Yeah. That's a bit awkward. You've got a lot going on at this moment in time. Yeah, it's driving me crazy. I wish I did yoga in the mornings. I used to do so much yoga. Now, like I get up in the morning, I take my dog outta the crate and he stretches and I just copy what he does. I just do the same as him. Just stretch out and stretch down. There we go. That my yoga. Perfect. Well, at least you're getting a downward dog in. Yeah. Yeah. Get, oh, it just makes you feel so much younger doing yoga. Like I, I just need it as, as we're getting older, we do need to do it. But yeah, I, I, I haven't done for, it's only been about two or three, two months maybe, but I just, I feel completely overwhelmed and I know it's because I'm not doing the things that I need to do. Like you were saying. You don't meditate at the points where you actually need to meditate. It's like what I need to do right now is not wake up at seven in the morning and just start thinking about all the things that I haven't done that I'm still not gonna go and do. Yeah. I'm just gonna beat myself up for it in the morning. Yeah. Hopefully I'll get them done soon. I'm sure I get, I've got a picture of you, you know the picture of you, me, Dennis Cackling at Humphrey's wedding. You are on the side of my writing desk. Oh yeah. Where I'm really sunburnt, I'm bright red 'cause I'm completely sunburnt. That's on my writing desk. I just looked down and I was like, oh look, there's actually s on there cackling with Dennis. We've got so many critical features in one another's houses. I often see things that I've given you in photographs that you post on Instagram. I'm like, oh, I gave that. I made go out. I love that. In fact, there's even another picture of you that I've got a framed picture of you just there. You're probably not gonna be able to see it, but it's you, uh, on a beach. Well, my arms outstretched. Yeah, you're like doing that. You're doing some pose. I think you're sort of going, here's the beach or something here. You're, you're like, this is the beach. I dunno what beach it was. I was obviously with you. I don't remember. Remember, I think we went to Caswell together when you came here. That's gorgeous beach. Just like cliffs at the side. I went there with my, um, sister and her two little boys the other week and, uh, yeah, they scrambling up the cliffs. That was all quite stressful. We shoulda chosen a different beach. Whoops. Sorry. Oh yes. It's sleep. I forgot. Sorry. Do you find that the menopause has affected your brain much? Yeah, I do, but I also, um, I started taking HRT six years ago. Oh wow. Ages ago. Yeah. Yeah, so I, I had an early menopause and um, actually I think back to what it was like prior to taking HRTI was beginning to lose my marbles and, um, like I was making a, um. It was NE's sick birthday and I was making her a sixth here birthday cake. And, uh, it was hot because it was Ethiopia and I was struggling to get everything to stay in a big pile, in a big heap of cakes. And I was just about to smash that cake. I'm so angry. Wasn't I was just about to smash it. And then, uh, Ben came in and was like, ah, don't smash the cake. And, um, just said, okay, go somewhere and get cool. And so I went to like this little area that was just ceramic tiles. I took off all my clothes and lay down on the ceramic tiles and then felt calm and was like, ah, okay, cool. Now I'm, I'm not hot anymore. I do feel a bit calmer. But just, that moment there that, those are all insane thought processes. Yeah, just, you know, house full of people go and find somewhere to lie down on some cold tiles and, um, and smashing the cake that I, you know, I'd been freezing those cakes and then I'd brought them all out ready for the grand reveal. And then when it came to the, the moment. I was, yeah, I was ready to smash the cake up, but there were lots of other sort of, um, and it was, it was heat as well for me, like the kind of the surges of heat when I was living somewhere so hot. Anyway. And my mum came to visit me and bought me this portable fan that I still carry around with me because it's so good. But, um, that, yeah, it was hot and I was angry. Angry, yeah. All the time. Really cross about, um, mainly like my husband's domestic failings. So a lot of it, that's definitely what is getting the, is starting to get that, like, we've been together five years and we've totally been like so nice to each other and not argued. And then, I mean, we've just moved house so we're tired and stressed and stuff, but I am like, could you not just do sun fucking unpacking? Yeah. If you past, it's the thing. Can't you just pick it up? Like it's not, you know? Yeah. Living with another person. Is well, it is lovely. It is, you know, you make the choice. You're like, right, okay, I'm gonna look with this person. I love them. And then you kind of navigate your way around, like living together and sharing space together. And then once you start going through menopause, you're like, I, I forgive you. Nothing. Yeah. All of those little idiosyncrasies that were charming to begin with, that's, um, yeah. Ow. Stop farting. I remember Ben saying to me at one point, like, there's a lot of standing looming over me, wielding a tula at the moment. And I was like, I feel like if you weren't always in a chair, I wouldn't always be looming over you. You need to be able to communicate and find a way to communicate. And HRT has definitely helped to kind of, okay, we live together, this is okay. We can laugh about things. Done full of rubbish for another week. Oh dear. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. But, you know, living with a man now, 20, 22 years, Ben and I have been together now. It's a long time. Yeah. We've lived together for 20 years, so yeah, we've kind of, we've kind of worked out how to do it now. Yeah. Oh my God, that's insane, hasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Wow. And it's funny because I'll quote things that he said to me and he's like, that is a, I wasn't even 30. You can't repeat me back to myself. They're taking me outta context. No, I'm not. I was drunk. I was 27. But you can't really say, that's my opinion now. I think I can It's the real you. Yeah. OG you. You're just not keeping it real, real anymore. Yeah. You kind of grow together. You just sort of, you. Because I've changed too. I've changed more than he has, I think. Because, you know, I used to, I used to drink and go out and, you know, I used to not be a mom with an entire kind of focus on another person. But her, her list of her life is my life. And then, but it's the drinking thing's the most obvious thing because with menopause I just suddenly couldn't drink anymore. I just didn't want to. And, um. I don't, I've got no problem with Ben continuing to drink at all, but that I think is a bit boring for him because like, we'll sit and we'll, and have a chat and he'll start having a couple of beers. Like he only really drinks on a Friday, a Saturday, and have a couple of beers and just be kind of getting into the mode of like, time to have a chat, go out or not go out, but I'll just go to bed because I'm like, right, okay, bedtime. Then it's nine o'clock and he's just had his first couple of beers. It's Friday night, he's ready to like, you know, there's a bar over the road that he could go to if he wants to. I don't really wanna, but it's a bit sad for him to, like, he's, he drinking companion of 20 years is just like. Is my bedtime. Now you later night? Night. But there's a whole rest of day to hang out with me and I'm far better at six in the morning. If only you could see it. He never sees that. He never gets up. No, not, that's unfair to say. No, he doesn't get hung over. Paint him as a person. He just is a, he's an evening person. They both are actually, my daughter is as well. They both, they're really wise awake in the evening and then in the morning it's like trying to rescue someone from a swamp of sleep. Both of them. They're ridiculous. And I, um, and I'm really wise awake it, so the dog and, uh, so I end up doing the kind of first walk around the block and stuff. And then we wake them up and like, come on Pluto. Give them a lick. Give her a lick, come on, help me, can we wake them up? And then in the evening, Pluto and I are like, time to go to our time to go to our respective bed. I don't share bed with the dog. And then the others are like, I can hear them moving around two hours later. They're still like plunking around and talking to each other and stuff. Midnight. Whatcha doing? She's 12. She should be asleep. Someone tell her to go to bed. But not me, obviously. No, obviously not me. But that, that is the kind of, that's his genetic gift to her is this sort of, and I, I'm much more forgiving of his inability to get up in the morning. Now I've seen it in my own child and I love everything about her. And I'm like, oh, okay. It's alright. You're not just lazy. Can't get up in the morning because obviously, you know, if it's the same as true of now and it's all forgive. Yeah, yeah. No, totally. Yeah. 'cause Evelyn was a night owl, but I'm a morning person. Diz literally will just sleep all the time. All the time. He naps. He's taught me to nap, so I now nap. Oh, love. He would come home and he sleeps in the day. Yeah. I've never, I, I don't think I'd ever napped at all until I got here. And then No, you don't stop. Yeah. I don't, there's not gonna be much. Was never gonna, while you're walking, when are you gonna nap while you are in the middle? Opening Beam town. Yeah. No, no. Yeah. No. I love napping now. Oh, I love a napp. I even, um, last night I had to get the podcast for that came out today edited and it was coming out today so I needed to do it, but we just gone to try and get the cat back, which we did. And then he's gone back again. So I So you've got your cat back. Good. Well, yeah, but we're gonna need to, I think we're gonna need to go and get him and put him in a box and bring him back and keep him in the house again for a bit longer. 'cause he is just gone back over there. He is not there. This, he's not here this morning. He's gone back over there again. So he's not thinking of here's home and I think he, but I think he was maybe a bit of a dominant cat back in his domain and I think he knows where to get food from. So I don't think we're gonna be able to keep him here until he really actually thinks of here as, as home and gets fed here and stuff. Um, apparently butter on their paws helps but some cats just longer than others and on their paws. Covers your house in butter as well, so it's, well, yeah, I think it's just, I think he needs to just be kept in longer because it's such a big house. It does be kept inside. It didn't feel like, uh, his territory yet, so I think he just needed to be inside a bit longer. Yeah. Um, there's an argument isn't there for keeping him in one room and then in two rooms. That's what did gradually Yeah, we did that. You did that. We gradually, gradually extended it. And then, so the other cat had gone in and out through the patio door a few times, so I thought I will, he knows what he's doing. So the night where we'd let them both go out. Noie hadn't done that yet, but Sol was there. So we thought, well, he'd find soul and follow soul and then come back, but he didn't. He just, he managed to find his way home and then just went home far. He's got how far? It's your old house? Not far. It's literally a field. Okay. Yeah. So his, the end, the edge of his territory previously is like one field and a road and a lane away from us. So he's finding his way back really easy. But, and I, and because I think he knows how to get food back there, I think it's gonna be really hard to get him to like. Does he come home after he is, after he's been over there and done his hunting and done his thing? Does he come back to you here? No, he's not coming back here yet. He hasn't come back here yet. Right. And because if he comes back to you then there's no problem with him being No, that's fine. But he hasn't back. He's not come back once yet. So last night we went and found him and like squeaked at him all the way back to our house and made him follow us, but it took quite an effort to get him to do it. And then he came back and we fed him and then he went back out again. And he's not here this morning for breakfast, so he's back over there. But because I think he knows how to get food, I don't think he's gonna. Voluntarily come back over here. I think we need to like keep him here for a bit again. Um, how old does he get food? Is he like hunting or is he No, because people got cat flaps that aren't chipped ones. So he's just gonna be going into, he's stealing other cats. Yeah, he, he's gonna be knowing because he was always so much fatter than soul, so he was clearly getting more food than so was and yeah, he's just, he's just food obsessed, so if there's any cat flaps that he could get into and get food, he would've been doing it. And yeah, so I think he's got some access to some food over there. So yeah, I think we're gonna need to actually like nab him and bring him back for a bit. But yeah. Anyway, let's pull another card. Stop. Interference again, this is swords. So this is probably thinking of mind and stuff as well. What, um, what, how do you feel about what's going on in the world at the moment and are places in it and everything that's going on? Very terrified, really. I mean, I feel like if you're not terrified, you're not paying attention. But, um, yeah, I don't necessarily feel as though I'm well informed enough to answer that question because I I have, I'm definitely guilty of burying my head in the sand, but more than that, I feel like I'm very guilty of just focusing on my pixel and doing what I can within my own pixel. Like to quote you back at yourself, but very much like I'm very kind. Working in place and trying to connect people to each other in my, 'cause my job is to do with, um, connecting people to each other and volunteering and building community resilience. And so I feel like my whole life is about connecting people and loving people and doing things in a positive way as they possibly can. But I don't feel as though I'm doing anything on a broader scale and I feel a bit like I will say something ill-informed if I try and comment on what's happening. No, but that's Or the stage department being terrifying. Yeah, but what you just said is what I kind of was interested in anyway. 'cause it's like how does one navigate, like how, how we're all, I think. I actually think that it's a weapon that is being used against us, uh, the media. So I think if you were engaging with that, in some ways you are being colonized or abused by the powers that be to make you feel scared and incapable and like frozen with fear. Yeah, I feel scared but not incapable. I think. Um, great. That's really good. Having had have because I've got a child and I have to create a better world for her, I definitely feel as though I've got to try and remain optimistic. And some of that is about not absorbing stuff that I can't, I can't process. And some of it is just about doing what I can. Mm-hmm. And so, um, I feel like, yeah, I feel like I, I read, uh, I read articles on my phone and I, um, and then I, like I, I'll listen to the news. And then I'll, um, go and see some people like work groups, and I'll sort of chuck out what I've heard on the radio, and then I'll listen to a variety of their opinions on it. And I find that quite a useful way to just get a kind of broad understanding of what people think. But also, you know, my own opinion will quite often be just fury and outrageous and disgusted and, and, um, and those, and I'm quite conflict avoidant. I'm really conflict avoidant. And so, um, I have to just and my mind is really busy, so I quite often will go, oh my God, I'm so, I'm so furious. I'm so furious. Oh, but I've also got to reply to this email, that email, this email. And I've gotta have four teams meetings in a day. And I've got to, you know, like I'm, because I'm busy and my mind is busy. I feel like there's this sort of low level, um, fear and disgust that I'm just sort of not able to do very much about. I'm just having to push it aside and go, okay, that's awful. Anyway. Yeah, I think that's what we're all having to do really, isn't it? I think so. Yeah. It feels like that's quite a common reaction. Yeah. Yeah. That's how I feel. Yeah. I feel, yeah. I dunno what interference for me. Yeah. I think it is just the, I just, the speed, for me it's the speed at which we're expected to live at. That's the thing that I find the most interfering that I don't want. I don't want to have to live so fast and internet and online. I'd love to go offline and be analog. And I feel like the whole, like the revolution will not be televised. I'm like, the revolution will be just to literally switch your internet off. Yeah, yeah. Like, oh, you suddenly have no control over me. But they do. 'cause you wouldn't be able to buy tickets to anything and you wouldn't be able to get anywhere or do anything or your banking or anything that's turn on the internet. Yeah. You turn yourself off on the internet and you don't connect in the same way like I realize. But um. Ben and his friend who neither of them were on Facebook uh, had missed out on this event that they would really have loved. And um, and I felt oh, I should have known that because I was on Facebook. I should have told them of, you know, your, your favorite band is launching their album you could go to this evening. They missed it completely 'cause no one told them about it, and they're not on Facebook. And then, you know, I met a woman who, she was doing a pilgrimage, actually. She was walking the land. She has no internet, absolutely nothing. She wrote my phone number down with a pencil and I was like, oh, you're gorgeous. She was absolutely wonderful and I'll never see her again. And you know, what she's doing is so small. It's so personal. And so, and she was with two other people who also don't have internet. They don't have any connection outside of what they're doing in the immediate moment. And, um, yes, it's, it. It's valuable to, to them, but they're not having a as big an impact as they could be. You know, the things that she's learning, uh, are, are probably really interesting, really worth sharing. Like everything about your I know you generally do tend to live through dialogue and communication, but everything about your pilgrimage is recorded and shared, and it's important and, you know, all those connections. And she has a, a book of nice people and she writes them all down, all these nice people and you know, she'll be buried with that book and it'll never go anywhere. And good for her. That's beautiful. But it's not changing the world either. And then, you know, but she really reminded me of, um, well, not you specifically. She reminded me a of a lot of our brightened friends, just that kind. I said, what's your name? She said, rain. It wasn't rain, it was light. Oh, light. Oh my God. Is it really, is that your given name? And um, we were trying to work out, she was trying to decide where to sleep and then I found out about a place that, um, they'd be really welcome to sleep. And I saw them again and like ran off and was going late, late. Lemme tell you about this place that, that you can sleep because I remembered that, you know, when you are on your pilgrimage, sorry, when you are on your pilgrimage, it's really useful for you to know, uh, where you're gonna sleep that night. And so yeah they just really reminded me of you this lovely that's but very inward looking group of people. And then, yeah. So I think the work that I'm doing is quite outward looking, quite sort of like, oh, you should talk to you and you should talk to, and connecting people, but it's not, i'm not very politically kind of. Yeah, no, I think that's totally reasonable. Totally reasonable. Yeah. It's interesting what you were just saying, 'cause it makes me think of like Buddhist monks, like meditating all day, every day. It's an amazing thing, but also it's like, and exactly. But what doing with that, like, that's lovely. You know, you're not, you're not killing any insects or you're not doing anything, but you're not doing anything. Yeah. And, um, I think you need to do something. Yeah. Yeah. I'm glad they exist. I'm glad they exist. Yeah. Because it's another interesting thing to the mix, but and I feel like it's a buffer zone for me now because I definitely went through a very, suicidal period during the whole IVF moment. I've sort planned my death all day, every day, and. When I went and did the fpaa and I meditated for 10 days, it made me realize that before I go to the length of killing myself, I would also like to just go and join a Buddhist monastery and meditate all day every day. So there's a buffer. There's a buffer there now. Yeah. If I feel like I'm at that point, then I could just go and become a Buddhist monk. Just meditate. I really do. I'm so sorry that you went through that experience. I mean, I know it's made you what you are. And actually adversity does do that to us, doesn't it? It makes us what we are, but, and I, I remember lying, um, in a bed with you in my dad's old house. The most uncomfortable bed in the world. It was like a fold out, a fold out bed. And we were lying in this bed and we were just lying in bed and you were crying and I was holding your hand and you were just so unhappy. And there was nothing, there was nothing I could give you or say to you. You were just unhappy. And there was just, and that I think wasn't, that, wasn't IVF You just had moments where you've been I was in depression, yes. I was in depression for about seven so sad years. Yeah, yeah. Seven years is a long time to be depressed. It's, it was, I mean, I think that's normal. People are depressed for that long. Like it, you know, it's, it, and it feels like, you know, when you accidentally iron a deep crease into your clothes and then you can't really iron it out. Mm-hmm. And that's what I found the passion was really good for, is it did feel like it did a really good job of ironing it out. It was almost like, like steaming out the, the crease. Steaming out the crease. And I can feel it sometimes, like I got a little bit close to depression since I've lived here. 'cause I've, 'cause it's been a, such a massive, like journey to be around people that don't necessarily like you and are never gonna like you. 'cause you represent everything that they're against in the world and you are not able to get away from them. They're not just someone on the bus they're literally your world. And that it, but it's been really good and it's shifted. And now I am completely not bothered about any of it anymore. Like I don't have fomo, I don't have. Oh God, they don't like me. Um, I mean I have been putting off, having awkward conversations definitely. But that's just 'cause I don't wanna have to have them, but I'm gonna have to have them and you know. Yeah, it's pretty much like now or never. 'cause it's two weeks before the event. But also there's an element of like, but if I put make it till it's really just before the event, then they kind of have to just do it because it's too late to do anything else. I could, are you gonna put this podcast out after the event so that they Yeah. Oh, they're not gonna know that was your approach. They're not gonna listen to this. But yeah, it's just like, I mean, you said like two months ago that it was fine to do this. I just didn't check in because I knew you might change your mind, but Yeah, maybe this way of phrasing it, that's just like an assumption. Like, do this. Yeah. I think that's the way I'm gonna have to approach it. I'm just gonna say, oh, there's this many tents staying in your garden. That's the issue he offered. He offered, he said, but then he's then gone funny on me because of stuff to do with government stuff. So I just was worried if, yeah, if I mentioned it at the wrong time, he might be like, actually we can't do that. Um, and yeah, basically it's two weeks before the event now, so there's no way I can find somewhere now. So he's gonna have to. Do it. But he did say he did offer, you've got enough space in your garden to have people. Well, we're gonna have half. Yeah. We are having the noisy people in our garden and the quiet people in his garden. So yeah, he's quiet camping and we're the noisy camping. But yeah, it just needs to all be finalized and me to say it's 10 tens. That's basically what needs to happen. But I'm just scared of saying it and him going, no, so, but we'll be fine. We'll be fine. I think it'll be fine. Right. So we'll do the last card. So you tell me when to stop. Yeah. Ooh, this is a lovely card. I love this card. This is the art card. So it's this person that's sort of made out of two halves. It's almost like the twin effect, and they're pouring a sort of. Water and fire into a goblet, a golden goblet. Let's see if I can get that. There you go. I got in focus for a second. Um, that, that's just a tiny little thing I can't see. Yeah, so it's this person cards. I can see fire and I can see water. Yeah. Yeah. And there's like a griffin, a red griffin, and a white lion. And it's basically like alchemy, but the card's called art. So it's like this card of art and alchemy and mixing things together and making magic. You are an artist. How's your art world going? Am I, oh, you're a writer and a singer and a musician. Well, it's funny when you said artists, I was thinking about the fabulous crochet projects I've done recently. Oh, and, and your crochet wings. Amazing. I've made some fun thing. I've made, um, krakens, I made a kraken for my brother's sport year. But the, the singing thing is probably the most interesting because it's, um, when I lived with you, I was so anxious about performing that I would never, that would never do it. And when I did, I had this huge internal dialogue and my whole face would go purple with with anxiety. Great. Look. And then now, 20 years later, more than 20 years later, um, I'm much less, um, I'm much less in my head about it. I'm much less worried about it. Like I have a sort of raised heartbeat, but I, um, I think I just got to the point where I thought. But I love singing as I can do it. And I like the people I'm singing with and I know the songs really well. And so when we, when we first started recording was that we first started practicing we were just practicing in their attic. And we did that for about two years because, um, most of us were like, no, don't, we don't wanna perform. No, no, no, no. So everybody was on the same page about like, that's not rash here. No, no, no, no. So we'd meet every week and, and practice. And we had, um, and two of them, um, married, they're the parents of Neil's best mate. And um, the other two have known them for forever. They grew up together. So they've all known each other a really long time. So they know these songs really well. And, um, they've been hearing them and playing them for 20 years. And so I was kind of coming along, we were doing some new stuff and finding new parts, but now we've got a gig tomorrow night actually. And then in the, um, a couple of months we're doing one that's just us. We are having like a, a gig. That's just us, we no done that for. That's an hour and a half and. Yeah, it's, it just feels like, less of a. I just feel less worried about it. It's just enjoyable. It's really fun. And because we do a lot of piratey songs, we're basically a pirate band, so we dress up as pirates. Yes. And yesterday I was thinking, what I'm gonna do, I'm gonna get some fake dreadlocks. I've always wanted to have dreadlocks. And then I, I never ever could. I did try and have one once and it just, it looked so rubbish. I never, ever managed to have dreads. My hair's like dead straight and, you know, and so anyway, I'm gonna be a pirate. We dreadlocks. I'm gonna, I'm gonna make some dreadlocks and I'm gonna have dreadlocks as part of my pirate costume. But I've got like, fatty trousers and, uh, other people have got hats and boots and jackets and stuff. And that also feels like a bit of a, kind of, it's a performance. It's, you know, it's fun. Go into our thing. And then, yeah, it's great. I really liked dinner. I really, what's your band called? What you called the Krakens? Oh yeah. The Krakens are awesome. And then, so the first Kraken I made was as a band mascot. And I bought it along, like I've made as a friend, like I've made as a mascot. And uh, so he has to come to our gigs and like find him somewhere to sit when we're there and stuff. That's amazing. And he's got these like really angry looking eyes. He's made outta wool, but he's not. He's odd. He's hardcore. I'll send you a picture. Yeah, send me a picture. I'll share it with the social media pictures for the podcast. What's funny is if I do put on this festival next year, one of the extra festivals that I was planning on doing, one's a Norman Metal Festival, 'cause it's the year of the Normans next year 'cause it's winning. The conquer is thousandth birthday. And so, um, there's, yeah, all across any Norman influenced countries, there's gonna be loads of Norman stuff. So the Bay of Tapestry's coming to England and there's all sorts of things happening. So I was gonna, I in theory I'm putting on a Norman Metal Festival, uh, with some reenacting. 'cause I wanna do reenacting to try and sneakily get people over here to start being into traditional crafts. Because if that sort of happening around them and they get curious, there's so much we could do here. That means as the bottom feeders. 'cause that's the issue here is it feels like you are in the middle of nowhere and you're completely out of the picture. But because we are the bottom feeders of the world, um, along with, you know, other places, and obviously we are much more privileged than many places, but we just get directly affected by world events immediately because our costs are already so high. 'cause everything costs so much to get here that our fuel and food prices and everything, like our electric's crazy high. Everything is so much higher than it is in England. We've got less things to spend money on. So you still, I live on less money here than I did in the uk, but the actual things that we do have to spend money on, like fuel and food are more expensive. So we get directly affected immediately, but also because we are on this like weird, I dunno, we're, we're, you know, like the MOJ will be over all the time and the MOD and. Royalty and whatever. Like we, we are always sort of being Really Why? Because I think there's an element of like, they have to keep in touch to kind of keep their claim on us. Like if they left us Oh really? Devices too long, then we might, yeah, and, or we might get in trouble, you know, we might get ourselves into trouble. So they need to kind of keep in touch and make sure we're all right and make sure that everything's like okay. You know, in terms of being a borderer or in terms of not, I mean, not embarrassing anyone. Not, not going off the rails doing some crazy stuff. So there's just, yeah, there's an element of like keeping in touch with us that goes on. But it means that you are like at the pub getting drunk with the Ministry of Defense. You know, I, I got on the, I got on the, um, toast Rack, which is the tractor that pulls you up the hill. I got on the Toast Rack with, um, a whole bunch of people and um, I was like, oh, hi, how are you? Like, just sort of chatting And, um, I was like, yeah they said, yeah, our boss is coming here for a visit, so we've. They had to come to sort of do a reckoning. I was like, oh, okay. And they was like, oh, we've just found out there's a little shark. And I was like, oh yeah, we call them the pointy heads. And then it turned out that they were m mi five and it was because the Princess Royal was coming over and I basically hitched a, a ride on the lift with them and told them that everyone in little was called the pointy. Oh, sorry. I didn't realize it was at my private. So it's weird because that would never happen in Brighton. You know, like, I mean, the royals literally are here all the time. Like we just it's weird. Like we're just sort of in this weird mix where, oh, I'm really good friends with the lieutenant governor who, who's the person who represents the royals here, who comes over and we get on really well. And he knows, 'cause they've done, reces on all of us. Like they've done their research into us. So he, any lists that I might be on for protesting and all that sort of thing, they've got access to it. Probably mostly stuff that, I mean, Clara. Clara, Clara got me involved in Clara, definitely got me on some lists. So yeah they'll be privy to all of that, so that's all funny. But anyway, the reason why I'm saying it's pirate, we're gonna do a pirate festival. It's the other festival I was gonna put on. Yeah. So I'm gonna do a Norman Metal Festival and a pirate folk festival. So we'll have to book you. Um, so it would be the first weekend in August and it will be next year. Yeah. But it. In theory, it would then continue. I mean, I, I will have to see whether it, but that in theory that's what will happen is it'll be a pirate because the island was run by pirates. And then Elizabeth, I first said, someone go and sort those pirates out. So Helio Kartra came over from Jersey with 40 men. The story is, but it's probably not true, but the story is, is that they pretended that their captain had died and they wanted to come on land to bury him. And so they asked if they could bring the coffin on to bury him. And they were like, only if you've got no weapons. They're like, look, we've got no weapons. And they went, all right then. So they brought the coffin on and the coffin was full of weapons, and then they got the weapons out and got rid of all the pirates, rounded them all up and then took the island. And then the 40 men that were with him were all given a strip of land called a tenement, and there was enough land for each person to farm to feed a family. And that had access to the sea in a place to be able to build a house. So that's what the 44 tenements that the island's carved up into is based. Which is what my husband's family have. They've got two tenement. And, but everyone, everyone here who's from here has a 10 month, like they've all got their, that's what the, the locals are. Wow. Um, which is why everything's, um, leasehold over here. 'cause you're leasing it off. They still own the land. And actually Queen Elizabeth, the first and the royal, he the, so now the King Charles actually owns the island. So he actually owns the island and the senor rents it off him for a pound a year. Like a token pound a year thing. And then everyone then owns their 10 months. But really the king owns it technically. But yeah, so we are gonna reenact that happening and have a pirate musket fight reenactment where some tutors come and. Have a fight with some pirates, but I'm gonna try and get the whole island to address as pirates, which would be really fun. But it means we could book you to come over and play. Yeah, that would be amazing. Yeah. I'd be able to book you to come and play. That would be so good. Never thought that would happen. Can we stay in that gorgeous house we stayed in when we came to your wedding? You can do, if you can afford it. Oh, well you could save my house. We save up all our band money. Oh yeah. You've got a house. Can we save your house? No, we could. I've got a massive house. Oh yeah. Okay. I, it's so ridiculous. Saffron. I like, I can't believe that I've ended up with a house. Like I was never gonna, ever, it's not even a dream come true. 'cause I didn't even dream that I was ever gonna own a house. Didn't even dream it. I was thinking about this and about, um, people feeling envious of you for having a house. And I was thinking about the fact that for the whole of our life to to get there, I have thought. It, you know, my future in terms of and I'll need a granny annex 'cause, uh, if for to look after Jolie. Exactly. I'll need to and we're thinking like, I must say to Nathan, like, you also thinking in terms of Granny Ann for, for Jolie, like when she gets old, your brother Nathan. And uh, and now I don't have to, you're just like, ah, I'm sorted. Like, just like no kind of saving up for a deposit and paying a mortgage. Just all sorts mad and it's so weird. Not envious. Like the, the thing about envy, I hate feeling envious of people and I don't feel envious of you because I feel like, oh, thank goodness have it's more like relief. No, I was looking forward to looking after you, but I do just feel like you're secure and I think, that's, um, that's not to be sniffed at and I'm so pleased for you. Yeah. Yeah. It feels so weird. It is so weird. It, I. It's just funny as well. 'cause it was like a lump sum of money that came into Dizzy's life unexpectedly and then has gone back out of his life. And we are literally still now on 12 pound an hour. But like, there's a massive house that happened and it was literally exactly the amount of money that the house was. So it's like there's nothing left. There's just some money came in, it went the house out situation completely changed. Yeah. And now we're still here with and like we definitely have got less rent. Well we're not paying rent, but we have ground rent and we're gonna have massive tax now. Like we've got reef tax. So Yeah. So the, so it is not a huge, huge saving, but it is different. It's ours. It's not just going out the window, it's, it's ours. But yeah, we're gonna have to like, and also, it's probably gonna cost a lot more money. Heating it and all those sort of things are all gonna cost a lot more. Yeah. But it just, I mean, obviously it's different. It's a weird switch to go from, um, living somewhere where, you know, you're not staying and living somewhere where, you know, you're, it took us, I mean, I think we're still, we're still not there, really. They're kind of like, it's worth putting up those hooks for your coat to go on, and it's worth putting in the extra effort to like Yeah. Make it nice. Hang up a curtain in front of your cupboard under the stairs and stuff. Know yeah. Making it nice and the little details, because you'll be there, so Yeah. It's, I think it takes a while. So you've only been in there less than months. Don't be too yourself. I'm not. I'm too, too str strung out already to Yeah. Like that's a future thing. It's okay. Which I feel good about. That's quite unusual for me, but I'm, I've accepted the fact that any decorating is probably over winter. So the last thing to ask you is, what about a chaos crusade? I had that idea and then I asked. Friend listens to your, she listens to your podcast. And so, like, God shout, oh, and I can't actually read it without making you pause and wait for me for ages. I think I'm just gonna go with my original one, which was strike up some banter because when I was overseas and I came back, what I really, really enjoyed was the banter. Um, I remember being in Marks and Spencer's and just talking to the person who worked there about the fact that the pants that matched the bras were always so enormous. Like, why can't you just buy nice snickers to go with brass? And we were all in laughter behind the counter. And I was like, I walked away with like tears welling in my eyes. Like that's what, like this, like just joking with shock assistance. Yeah. So something about. Just make a random comment. I walked past a man the other day and he was doing his bins, and I said, oh, the lovely Wednesday evening dance. And he said, uh oh, it's a rubbish evening. And we laugh. It's just like, I love those moments. I think they're so important and they're so, um, element and they're what make us human. And I think that we should all be. Going out and making little comments. Try and make each other laugh all the time. Not necessarily to laugh. You might just be talking about the weather, but it's just connect, I think. Connect. Yeah, totally. So it's, you actually told me to do that. You taught me to do that I, many years ago. Yeah. Because there's two major things that you taught me, uh, in life. One was, um, you're beautiful when you're allowed to be and own it. And the first time you said that to me, it was so shocking. I was like, who, who does she think she, we can't. That's so ego. And then I was like, no, actually, you're right. We are beautiful. We're allowed to be beautiful. I'll lucky. We're lucky. We're beautiful. And that was great. And I've done it to loads of women since. So like young girls who I meet who are beautiful, I'll always tell them like, you know that you're really beautiful, right? And just get that passed along. So that was something really lovely. Excellent. Yes. And the other thing was your, 'cause you had a really feminist upbringing with your mum. She, I remember your poster saying the women are not free. The people are not free. And that was like at your dinner table, your poor brothers saying that, trying to rebel against it. But you just were so. Pro female and I wasn't, I grew up with girls bullying me and I just found women really like icky and, and it's been really good preparation for here because there's a, there's more of that kind of vibe of women here. Brighton attracted the kind of women that didn't get on with women and we all found each other and went, oh, all tomboy actually like each other. We are awesome. We were just those other girls. But you taught me to be nice to women anyway. And you said to me, no, but you've gotta have women's back because. Because no one else is, you've gotta have their backs. You've got, you know, if you're in the change room, tell someone they look nice, like, you know, don't be bitchy. Just support women. Yeah. And I, I, and it, it, that started me, them being more pro chatting to strangers as well, because I think as a pretty girl, you kind of have a bit of a protection. You have to be a bit protective about people talking to you, and you can be a bit like, oh God, you know, like, what's what do they want? You know, which is fair enough. Mm-hmm. But then that then ends up being just your, again. Operandi What it, modus operandi. M mo? Yeah. Modus opera. That thing. You what? It was it, what was that word? I'm so bad with words. Just, I mean, I'm a writer. It's ridiculous. Modus operandi. Uh, and yeah, and I would just be a bit like, oh, about anyone talking to me. And then I learned not to do that. And I learned to be really open to chatting to people. And then that even increased with the pilgrimage and, or just also, I guess when I was on the road with theater. But I just love talking to people and where I've been writing my book from the first pilgrimage I did. The day when me and Emily, like we, we, I knew we'd actually split up and I was having to walk with my grief and my heartache. Mm-hmm. Um, and it was along a canal and it was grueling heat. And so, and kind of a bit repetitive and really hard day. But my favorite thing was meeting these two old men. And one of them was completely silent, didn't say a word. But the other one knew his name was George. And I never got what his name was. And he just spent the whole time going, isn't that right, George? Isn't that right? Without this other guy saying anything? And it turned out they'd only just met each other. So this guy was just, and he was ex-Army and he just had that hilarious, like bombastic, like voice and nature. Um, and he was just like, we've never known anything like it. Have we, George? We lived through the blitz, but at least in the Blitz we were all together. We all just got separated and we couldn't talk to each other. And everyone never known anything like it. Have you, George? Have we? But it was it, he was, I think I was with him for about three quarters an hour, and it was the absolute highlight of my day. And I know that. It was really good for them because they'd had no human contact. You know, we'd all just been in lockdown and they had that, um, interaction. I know how much they got out of it, apart from this poor George Guy who didn't say a word. Um, but it meant so much to me as well because it was the only distraction I had that whole day. And it made such a difference. And you just don't know, like, I always say this about ripples. Like you never have a clue with ripples that you are putting out into the world and the effect that they're having. You, you have no idea what your, you know, the impact you are having and just you saying hello to that person might change everything for them. Just always be kind to people. Just always be kind to people you possibly can. You mean? Yeah, they might be dreadful then. Don't be kind to them, but you should. I mean, that's it. You've gotta kind of approach things in this kind of you don't have to, but this is how I'm bringing up my child is just like, just be kind to people and just. Try not to let stuff affect you and just be kind to people. And then just that kind of connecting with people thing is something that I'm just having to kind of demonstrate and going out into the world and demonstrating it. We were in the co-op day and she was like, oh my God, why are you shrieking with that woman behind us? Because I knew her from dog walking, and we were like, oh, had the chat. And they like, can you just like queue up, buy your stuff? You know, and it, but you, but all of those connections are meaningful to me because they're, because they're enriching my day and, um, enriching, hopefully hers as well. Obviously not enriching my daughter's day, but I think that, you know, my, I get this from my dad as well. My dad was like this. I would, I'd sit. In a pub and I'd hear a ripple of laughter over the far side. I, I'd know, oh, that's where he is. He's over there. He'll be making that group of people laugh. He'll have come out and said, I couldn't find this. And I just made a little joke with some people and then I watched him do it my whole life and gone. Right. You have a nice, if you have lots of laughs. Yeah, I be like that. Not deliberately, just like just. Emulating your example that's in front of you. I'll be like that then. I'm just hoping that that's eventually how I'll, I'll influence now by just going being chatty with everybody and anybody. And actually I realize I make friends on the walk more than anywhere else. When I'm out dog walking, I'm wearing my iest clothes and that's where I've met them most people. If you're right me now, you should see me when I've got nice things on my hair. Well, that's a nice way to me. I mean that's the same, the pilgrimage. My God, I literally stink like me now. Oh yeah. I actually am quite glamorous. I don't glamor always like a boy. Funny, like a, you've never looked like a boy. You've said that about yourself. But I think when you wear that hat, when you're in your pilgrimage, you sometimes do, but yeah, they're sort of like an Oliver Twist kind of thing. Yeah, like a joke boy. But your child is into your socks. But I think you that deliberately when you're in your pilgrimage, because you don't wanna attract any kind of, like any sort of interest, any sexual interest, chimney to do that. But I've got a phone I can order, I can book you. I can book someone. I'll Google it. Oh, well thank you so much. I knew that it was gonna be wonderful to talk to you and um, yeah, I miss you. Yeah, actually ever talk in person. We just record each other long podcast messages to each other. So yeah, first I've seen you since my wedding. I think probably it was two years ago now. Yeah, yeah. And then when, uh, before your wedding, it had been five years since we'd seen each other. That's much, isn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but I like book you long form for Pirate Festival. Yeah. Book me for the Pirate Festival. I'll bring, I'll just bring eight other people with me. That'll be fine. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, I love the way that we talk to each other in voice notes on WhatsApp. I think that's a really lovely way of saying in contact. I really kind, I still feel like I'm quite connected. Like I knew your cat was missing and you know, I feel like I'm kept in the loop by that, um, form of communicating. So yeah, it, it works for us. For now, it does work because also trying to like orchestrate times to actually talk. I just think we're both, our lives are so hectic that it's just almost impossible to make that happen. 'cause one of my friends won't do the voice note thing and now I don't really talk to her. And it's like, it's not that I don't wanna talk to her, it's just I've never got time to be like, oh, we could have an hour long conversation. You know? It's, it's just really tricky. So exactly. We've been talking about doing this hour long conversation since January. It's mid April, taking us that long and I'm sitting in a cold car on a hill making bloody ridiculous. It's crazy. So those voice notes are really like, they are the way that we stay connected to each other. Yeah. I really, really love listening to your voice notes and your podcast as well. I really enjoy listening to your podcast because I do feel like you're making them for me. Well, you basically are my like market in my head. Yeah, you're, you're the target market. It's just meron. I love it. Thanks. Yeah. It's like Efron's enjoying it. Good. I'm getting it right. Absolutely. Thank you for making your personal podcast. I appreciate it. That's okay. Do a babes. Have a lovely day. Love you. Take care. Enjoy the rest your day. Care darling. Bye. That was such a wonderfully giggly laughter fueled podcast episode. I normally use some of the AI tools in the recording suite. That is the interface that I use, and it actually edits out my laugh quite a lot, and it's one of the things I wish it didn't do because I can appreciate that I have got quite a loud, abrasive laugh, but. I like laughing and I think it's quite an important part of the recordings, but I don't normally, I think, well, maybe it's a bit unprofessional, so I let it edit it out. So with this one, I didn't. Tweak that, um, because I just knew that there was too much laughing and it would've sounded weird. We would've just sounded like strange robots all the way through it. So I allowed the laughing to stay and I really enjoyed it. Listening back there, I was like, oh God, that, that was a lot. So I hope you don't mind us cackling in your ears. We are cackling witches. And that photo that was talking about, that's next to my. Writing desk. I'm gonna take a photo of it and share it so that you can see it. 'cause it's just, it's saffron and Dennis cackling. There is meant to be me in the image as well, but I was really sunburnt and so I just cut myself out of it and just have Saffron and Dennis there cackling in this particular image. I can't actually find the original. It's a shame 'cause I'd like to find the picture with the three of us in it, but it will turn up somewhere in some social media memory at some point. But yeah, I loved every minute of that conversation. She is my, you know, just she's my res. And when you talk to someone who knows you that well and has known you for that long, I. They just know your journey. They've seen the full journey and understand your achievements and how far you've come. And I feel exactly the same about her. I just, I see all the layers to her. I am the living embodiment of the Palest of Saffron layers. You know, I know all about her. I know all the things she's been up to, and she knows all the things I've been up to, and that's something I treasure. It doesn't matter how much time passes and when we talk to each other, we can see each other's mannerisms, um, in each other. Like we know that we steal from one another's behaviors and all sorts of things. So yeah, I love, I love that. That was wonderful. So I hope you enjoyed it as well. Thank you ever so much for being here. Next week is the week of Bell team. I am going to attempt to make a podcast. If I don't manage it, then please forgive me, but I think I will. I think I'm going to, but I was gonna record it tonight and I have a sore throat and I can't, so we'll just have to play it by ear. But I will, I am aiming to get one out. So thank you. Lots of love. And I shall see the anon.