S2 EP 17 - Outsmarting Bullies: Tainted Love

Bullying in middle school isn’t always loud or obvious—and that’s what makes it so confusing and harmful. In this episode of Middle School Mary Poppins, child therapist and educational specialist Suzanne M. Swain, EDS, LMSW explores the subtle, strategic, and emotionally manipulative forms of bullying that often get overlooked by adults but deeply affect kids’ confidence and sense of safety.

You’ll learn how power, group dynamics, humor, and digital spaces fuel bullying, why neurodivergent kids are often targeted, and how calm, smart responses can disrupt the cycle without escalating conflict. This episode offers practical, compassionate tools for kids, families, and educators who want to recognize bullying, support kids effectively, and help them feel safe and understood.

Contact Suzanne Swain:
Email: suzanneswain@gmail.com

Website: msmarypoppins.com

Produced By: StellaMix Podcast Productions

Transcript

Defining The Clever Bully

A Personal Story’s Lasting Impact

Power, Not Meanness

Digital, Social, And Emotional Tactics

Why Targets Are Chosen

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Hey y'all, how's it going? Welcome to Middle School Mary Poppins. My name is Suzanne M. Swain, EDS, LMSW, child therapist and educational specialist. So today we are going to be talking about how to outsmart bullies. So we're going to talk about these big feelings, growing brains, and emotional mazes of middle school, all that, but how bullies affect that. So if you're new here, I'm really, really glad you found us. Thank you so much. And if you've been listening for a while, hey, welcome. Um, we're in 90 countries now. What? That's insane. If you're from another country, you know, please send me some emails and let me know where you're at and what you're doing and what you think. Always wanting to hear it. It's S-U-Z-A-N-N-E, S W A I N at Gmail.com. Send me a note. Let me know how things are going. You can go to our website, msmarypoppins.com. So, like I said, today's episode is about bullying, but not the obvious movie version of a bully. We're going to talk about, you know, what the more subtle, clever type of bully is. So let me ask you something. You ever had someone just say, oh, relax, I'm just joking, but somehow you're the one who walks away feeling embarrassed and confused and small and just kind of like, what? Like they're totally dysregulated. Well, maybe they smiled at you and the other kids laughed, and then later you're kind of just lying in bed and replaying the moment and trying to figure out why it hurt like that. And you can't even explain what actually even happened. It's just you feel like you got sucker punched and you don't know why. Okay, that's not kindness, that's not kindness at all, that is not friendship at all. We are talking about how that is not okay and how manipulation and power play a big role in the kid world and how we deal with bullies. Okay, so these are the bullies that are clever. These are the kind that hide behind their humor and popularity and group chats and just enough kind of deniability, like, oh, it's not me, that adults often look beyond it. A lot of times they'll have an ability like sports or something that kind of distracts people. They're very good at distracting people from what's really going on because they're loud and they're like, hey, look at the shiny object over here. So that's a tendency that seems to occur. So if you're dealing with a bully, look at what their talent is, and we're not gonna, you know, berate them for that or hurt them for that, but look at what it is they excel at and what kind of personality characteristics they carry. So, anyway, this episode is definitely for middle schoolers who feel confused about what's happening. Families, you want to help out, but you don't want to make things worse. And adults who remember what it's like to walk into a room and have that person you know give you the look, and you felt small. I mean, I still remember my bully. There was this kid that was on my bus, and my it was awful. I was in like eighth grade, ninth grade, and my mom was real sick and then passed away, and my dad was actually sick at the time, and I was I was really in a tough, sad kind of spot. And this little twerp was on the bus, and he had the spray that smelled really bad, like he had gas. And so I was, you know, a big girl, and he didn't like that, I guess. And but I don't I never even talked to him, and but he sprayed that at me, and I could not, and you know, I'm really smell sensitive being neurodivergent, a lot of us are, and so I couldn't get that smell, and smell goes to your long-term memory. Like to this day, I can still smell it. But I went to my reunion over the summer and he wasn't there, thank goodness. But I was actually still worried that that kid would be there, and I was going to probably confront him. So this stuff has really lasting effects. We all have a bully, we all have somebody as an adult. So, kiddos, it's we get it. I wish it weren't the case, but you can pretty much ask most adults and they'll tell you that they had somebody that bullied them in their life. And but it does make you stronger. You know, through the trauma, through the difficulty, you do get stronger. But I hate that you're going through this sort of thing. So most people picture a bully. They imagine someone like really loud and aggressive and obvious and obnoxious. But in middle school, it looks a lot different. I mean, it's a lot quieter, it's more social, more strategic. They're actually really good at reading the room. Bullies have this innate sense of what people's body language is, what the vibe is. They understand timing and tone and audience, and they know how to embarrass someone without technically even breaking the rules. They're really aware of the rules and how to circumvent them or get around them. They know how to hurt someone and still be like, I didn't do anything. So that really matters because bullying isn't about being mean. Okay. So please let's get that out of our range of consciousness. It's not about being mean, it's about power. It's all about power. So, power over things like attention, belonging, who feels safe and who doesn't. Because kids and teens, power, they want to just feel like they're more part of the group and higher up in the hierarchy of whatever group they're in. That's power to a kid because it's not like, no, you don't have power by being a CEO and having this, you know, great company, or you know, it's not like that because you're not an adult. So as a kid, it's about who takes the top spot to get the most favor from the adults. So bullying often happens in front of other people, and that's why it repeats. So it can feel so confusing and exhausting because it does tend to happen in front of other people, which drains you, and it sometimes feels relentless. So most bullying in middle school actually isn't physical. Like it's not like back in the day, I mean, I'm a Gen Xer, so you know, bullying in the 80s and 90s was sort of like, you know, more physical, and you know, you you end up with this big fight, and it's you know, very television sort of looking. But now it's more verbal and social and emotional and especially digital. So digital bullying is a really scary thing. And families, you know, kiddos, if you are being bullied online, please talk to a trusted adult and let them see what's going on and document the messages or anything that's going on because you know, we we want to take care of that. That people need to know what's going on. So you don't have to hide in the shadows if you're being bullied online. And understand that jokes only that hurt one person that can be bullying. Repeated teasing and disguises, like, oh, I'm just kidding. You're just and a lot of times they'll insult you and be like, oh, you're just too sensitive. And that's cut that's called gaslighting. Okay, you don't want to be gaslit and be told that you think or feel something that you absolutely don't. So they are trying to do that to change the dynamic back to them. Um, sometimes they'll exclude you on purpose and make a point of why they excluded you. Group chats where somebody maybe becomes the topic of conversation, public embarrassment, followed by like, oh, we never said that. So bullying is rarely one moment, it's really more of a pattern. So it's sort of a tapestry because you know they get a taste for this sort of attention and they want more and more and more of it. They're kind of addicted to the attention and the power. So remember that they're kind of drunk on power, so to speak. So they'll continue to behave that way until something stops them. So unfortunately, if you're being bullied, that may, you know, be you or you know, obviously trusted adults or educators or anyone that can assist you in this because you do want to have backup. So being targeted does not mean you're weak, folks. Okay. So just because you were targeted does not mean that you're the you know, gentle little lamb. I I definitely think not. In fact, a lot of people who were bullied, they they've kind of proven over time that you know, if you were bullied in school, it actually does make you a stronger individual and build up more of a thick skin. And and kids these days haven't had a lot of adverse or or kind of negative experiences, which is good, but in negative experiences is where you learn. So you don't learn from winning, you learn from losing. So sometimes when kids haven't had a lot of that, a situation where maybe they're being bullied could become huge because they're not used to dealing with anything even remotely like this. So a lot of kids grow up where they're, you know, it happens all the time and no big deal, but they learn resilience this way. So why are you being bullied? Well, I mean, let's be honest. You're not weak, but it may mean that you may be different in a visible way. Us neurodivergent folks, we're quirky and interesting, and we have weird little obsessions and things, and we get really excited about stuff. And a lot of us are this way. ADHD, autism, things like that, anxiety. We we get really, really excited because neurodivergent folks are very emotional people and we think on a large scale. Like we think we want to show everybody this cool thing, not just one person, usually. Maybe you're like really creative and sensitive or kind, or as that neurodivergent, maybe you're unwilling to play the same little social games that everybody else wants to play, and you're like, I'm just not into it. So simply put yourself in the space that punishes being different. But you have to understand something. Bullies are jealous.

unknown 9:16

Yeah.

The Roles: Bully, Target, Audience, Ally

Strategies: Calm Curiosity And Exit

Safety, Proximity, And Correcting Misinformation

Audience Actions That Remove Fuel

Prepare, Reframe, And Build Resilience

Resources And Closing Encouragement

SPEAKER_00 9:17

There's a reason they're picking on you, because you have a characteristic that they do not have. And most of the time, you know what it is? You're creative, you're smart, you're clever. Maybe they're not. But they have to tell everybody how smart and clever and wonderful they are to get that kind of validation that clearly they're not getting at home. So I feel sorry for bullies. I really do. They're humans as well, and they deserve also that consideration, but it's just sad, right? So if you are a bully to somebody, or if you're realizing maybe that you are engaging in some of this stuff, think about why and wonder, you know, maybe you need to work on you a little bit. And if you are being bullied, when you confront that person, and if you do, you can always be open because a lot of times bullies, someone who bullies you can end up being your best friend because maybe you're really alike. Think about that. How many TV shows and things have we watched where two people don't like each other and then all of a sudden they're best friends? We just need to reframe. Middle school can be brutal, that's the way it is, but we can think just think a little bit bigger. And neurodivergence, folks, we're clever as all get out. So let's be creative. So bullying doesn't work as a solo act, it's a system, right? So there are different roles. There's like the bully and the target, the audience and the ally. So this is the part that kind of surprises a lot of my kiddos that I've dealt with is that the audience is what has the power. It's not the bully, it's the audience. Because they're the ones that react to whatever the bully does. So without them, the bully gets no validation. They don't get to be praised and feed their ego. So, well, why? Laughter, attention, and silence are more of the currency of middle school. Okay? So when the audience reacts, even accidentally, bullying gets rewarded. And then the audience disengages and the behavior loses fuel. So a lot of kids realize something uncomfortable here. It's like, oh yeah, you ever realize that maybe sometimes you're the audience? Have you ever been hanging around when someone sort of picks on somebody and you're just like, uh? And even that kind of weird laugh, it's validating to whatever negativity is being said. So you can nip it in the bud if you're part of the audience, be like, you know what? I I you never know what's going on with people. And I say it like that. And sometimes that just stops it. And it doesn't really hurt anybody, but it kind of stops that negative behavior. So it's that's you that awareness really matters, and that's actually where the change starts. So let's talk strategy because clever bullies require smart responses and definitely not louder ones. So clever bullying relies on three things: you need confusion, reaction, and isolation. Outsmarting bullies means that disrupting those patterns is the way to get to them. For example, bullies don't really remember details, they just remember repetition. So sarcasm needs to interpret to work. So taking comments at face value removes the joke and shifts the power. You can also use like calm curiosity. So, what do you mean by that? It forces accountability without any escalations. The question is, what happened to you? Because that's what you really want to know. Like, why are you this way? What happened to you to make you this way? But being very calm is important because the quiet have the power. Just like a teacher that gives you the you know death stare, you're way more scared of the quiet folks than you are of the loud ones. I can be yelled at and not think a thing, but if someone's quiet and looking at me and just, oh, it just oh, it gets under my skin. So you can use it right back. Also, you want to control your exit when you talk to a bully. Walking away calmly denies their payoff. So it's no drama, no chase, nothing like that. You just walk away calmly, put your shoulders up, put your head back, and just walk away like it's no big deal because nothing is more annoying to a bully who's seeking attention than to act like it doesn't even matter. So you have to be the bigger person and just be like, you know, I think it's kind of small why you're acting that way, but hopefully you'll learn more. Now you don't want to get yourself hurt. You don't want to say something that's going to hurt them, then you know you have a reaction. That's very, very, very important. You need to stand near peers or adults, and that can change the dynamic. Because if it's just you versus the one person, sometimes that can put you into a situation where you could get into you know a dangerous because sometimes you know you don't know how people might react or what's what's going on. So I really recommend that you have somebody with you so you have a witness, and you don't have to handle this alone. So don't. Power grows when it's shared, it's kind of like a garden. So then quietly correct misinformation, which that will restore your control. Be like, actually, that word is great for this. Actually, I've found that's a really good way to start. I have found that you take the responsibility for finding out something, even if it's widely known. It makes the bully feel a little less isolated because you don't want to make them feel more isolated. It's like poking the bear. You don't want to do that. You want to make them feel welcome because secretly all they really want is to be welcomed and accepted as part of the group. For example, Derek. Stranger Things. Look at Derek! Delightful Derek, gotta love him. I actually got the little sweater online, I was so excited. But Derek, he's he's he says horrible things. I mean, things that are just not appropriate in any social circle. And you see that over the course of this past season, this new character goes from being a real jerk to being one of the best characters and most sensitive and most protective. Because bullies are very protective by nature because all they want is to be welcomed into the group. All Derek wanted was to be part of the group and have Holly as a friend, right? Not really a spoiler here. So, with time and understanding, you chip away at the bully and let them feel more safe, and you could have yourself one heck of a friend. So you gotta reclaim that narrative. Now, what if you're the audience? I mean, your role really does matter here because that's where the power is. You don't have to really confront anyone to be an ally either. You can sit next to someone who's being targeted, you can help change the subject, refuse to laugh at their jokes, and even check in with the person that was being bullied afterwards. And of course, if it needs to be made aware to a trusted adult, please do, you know, do not hesitate on things like that. But many kids who are bully are dealing with lots of fear and insecurity and this absolute need for control. And that doesn't excuse their behavior or anything, but it does mean that labels don't necessarily fix it. So accountability paired with emotional regulation, not shaming people, is what really creates the change. So you just want to be understanding, which will surprise them because they're gonna expect to fight back. And we know that when we get angry, we don't use our logic very well. You can either be angry and you know, fight, flight, fear, you know, so and all that stuff, but you can't also have logic. So when you're calm, logic is in your brain. And therefore, when you make an argument, it's much more effective than screaming and yelling and ranting and raving. Think about lawyers. Like if they were just to go into a courtroom and scream and yell and rant and rave, I mean, that doesn't really make much of a case, does it? They have to be calm and measured and do their homework. So be prepared. Think about what you're gonna say, think about the person as an archetype, as like a character. What characteristics does this person have? I've actually worked with some of my kids when they have a bully, is we draw sort of this cartoon version of the bully and point out some of the characteristics that they have that are good, some that they really don't like, and some that they'd like to see fixed with a solution. So you could draw that out as like a graphic organizer before you talk to that person. There are lots of different ways to deal with bullies, and I want you to know that you're not alone and you are definitely not the first person that's dealt with someone who wants to have more power than you. But remember, you have immense personal power. Okay, neurodivergence, we are capable of so many things, changing the world. A lot of times bullies aren't neurodivergent, and they wish they were because they have all this creativity and extra talents and all kinds of fun things. So just remember, a lot of times they're just jealous of you. So to make a friend, you gotta be a friend. And sometimes being the bigger person is worth it because maybe they have characteristics that you really would like to have too. So if you need help with bullying, I'd like you to go to the following resources. For example, like stopbullying.gov. They have science prevention and how to get help. This thing called PACER, P-A-C-E-R. They're a National Bullying Prevention Center. They have lots of kid and family-friendly tools for you about how to work with bullies. And of course, the CDC, they have lots of research-based guidance on bullying and youth and mental health. But you do deserve support and you definitely deserve to feel safe. So you try to use those resources. I personally like Stop Bullying. I think that's a great website. But generally, bullying thrives in confusion and silence. When we name it, understand it, and respond strategically, the power shrinks. It's like playing chess. So this is how tainted love kind of gets untangled. You're not weak for feeling hurt, you're human. And you're not alone. Just remember. Stay really clever little foxes. And remember, you might make yourself a new friend. Just try to do something different and change the dynamic to something maybe people haven't thought of yet. You got this. Hang in there and I'm rooting for you. Take care.