S2 EP 27 - Plain-Talk: Showing Grace — Don’t You Forget About Me

Middle school can feel like a daily showdown… until you realize the kid isn’t always the problem. Sometimes the kid is the signal.

In this episode of The Middle School Mary Poppins Podcast, Suzanne Swain, EDS LMSW explores the moments that make adults throw their hands in the air and ask, “Seriously?!” — and why that reaction is understandable, but often aimed at the wrong target. When behavior goes sideways, we tend to place the full weight of the situation on a 12- or 13-year-old navigating hormones, identity development, social pressure, emotional overwhelm, and a brain that is still developing impulse control and executive functioning. That isn’t an excuse for harmful behavior… it’s a roadmap for understanding it.

Drawing from years of real middle school classroom management experience, Suzanne walks listeners through a systems-based approach to behavior that focuses on emotional safety, clear expectations, simple procedures, and consistent boundaries. You’ll hear why consistency matters more than intensity, why fewer rules often work better than dozens of threats, and how becoming “annoyingly predictable” can actually help kids feel safer and more regulated. The episode also explores metacognition — the adult skill of noticing what’s happening internally before reacting externally — and how our own regulation often shapes the emotional climate around children.

But structure alone is never enough. Kids also need connection. This episode unpacks the idea of “connection before correction” and why trust, co-regulation, and emotional repair are critical parts of accountability. Suzanne also discusses some of the hidden stressors affecting today’s tweens and teens, including chronic sleep deprivation, overstimulation, emotional exhaustion, and constant screen saturation.

Blending neuroscience, humor, emotional critical thinking, and real classroom insight, this conversation offers a more compassionate lens for understanding middle schoolers without removing accountability or structure.

💜 ND Friendly Listening Note: MSMP is designed with neurodivergent listeners in mind. Ads and interruptions are intentionally kept to a minimum and placed thoughtfully for continuity and emotional regulation support.

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Produced by StellaMix Podcast Productions. Reach out to my high school buddy Janine for all of your podcast needs as she is the wizard you need!
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🦊Stay clever, little foxes. You got this! 

Transcript

Pajamas, Coffee, And A Soapbox

SPEAKER_00 0:07

Well, hey y'all. It's a beautiful day to bust some cognitive distortions. How's it going? My name is Suzanne M. Swain, EDS, L M SW, and long story short, I taught seventh and eighth grade for a lot of years. And then I decided I needed to know more. So I ended up going to therapy school too. Why not? Now I spend my time helping kids and families and teachers make sense of this pretty crazy wild stage of life. And honestly, thank you all so much. I am having such a blast. Thank you for joining me today. Today I want to talk about something that's been sitting with me, kind of stuck in my craw, you know? Folks, I think we need to give kids a break. And more importantly, we need to start giving them a little bit of grace. Because most of the time, I believe that middle schoolers really aren't the problem. They're the signal. So this is going to be one of those plain talk episodes, no notes, no editing, just real conversation today. And I thought, let's be real. So me, here I am, sitting in my pajamas on the couch, hanging out with Steve. That's it. Real life, real talk. So give me a minute to settle in and let's get started. I heard something recently, and it just kind of stuck in my craw. You know? And okay, confession. First off, preface. Middle school friends, I invite you to listen along today, but I really want to try to talk to the adults and explain a few things that I learned about you folks when I was teaching you. Like during the day at 11:30, what do you like? That type of thing. I'd love for you to listen and feel free to write, write me on msmarypoppins.com and let me know what you think. And if you agree, disagree, questions, have at it. But adults, I thought, wouldn't a nice little coffee chat be good? So grab a cup of Joe, tea, whatever you like, and let's just have a seat on the couch and let's talk about something that is so important to us, and that is the welfare of these kids. So here we go. Soapbox moment. Miss Swain, get on your soapbox. I always said that. Here's the deal. We need to give kids a break a little bit. And I think more importantly, we need to give kids grace. Well, why is that? Well, we really need to. So five alarm here. Not entirely. I'm not talking about like going feral, raccoon, you know, whatever. But we're not raising woodland creatures. We are raising humans. And one going through a hormonally almost traumatic part of their lives. Do any of you want to be a 13-year-old girl again? If you were one, you will never forget that experience in like seventh grade. No, absolutely not. My seventh grade self, mm-mm, bless her heart. So they're going through that right now. Right now, remember? And at 47, I know what I'm going through right about now, you feel? And it's a little like that. So it's giving me a thought of giving some grace to middle school students, not just for hormones, but just in general. So I was thinking about this today and wanted to talk about systems with you and explain how things work in systems so maybe you can understand them better. And I think it helps to, you know, give them a leg up. So here we go. I'm gonna try to stick up for middle schoolers. Ready? Onward. We are raising humans. Humans need structure. And we're not talking about building a house, but yes, they need

Kids As Signals In A System

SPEAKER_00 3:40

somewhere to live to. But more importantly, they need rules, boundaries, and limitations. But what I keep seeing in the media and classrooms and even therapy, and honestly, it's like out there, like some kind of, I don't know, David Attenborough narrating middle school thing. But like when behavior goes sideways, we always tend as adults to look at a kid. And we do this a lot. And have you noticed that? And sometimes it kind of feels like we're putting all the weight on the child. They're kids, they're just kids. So we were all 12. Did you have it all figured out? Did you always make the right decision? Did you make many good decisions? I know I didn't. But that's how you learn, right? It's through the struggle, is where the value comes from. It's the phoenix kind of thing. So maybe we give everybody a little bit of grace to let the phoenix rise. I get it. I taught middle school, obviously. But I absolutely had a million moments where I was like, look, people, what in the world are you doing right now? And you're killing me, smalls. And I said seriously in about 16,000 different ways. Seriously, seriously, seriously. So I had 36 eighth graders in a classroom all day, six classes. And so, yes, many tones of seriously. But the truth I wanted to get at here is that middle schoolers aren't the problem most of the time. They're a signal. So if I can have you think of it this way, maybe it makes a little more sense. They're like a smoke alarm, but they're not the fire. Okay? Takes a little pressure off. And when we only focus on the child, we miss the system that their orbit is in. A lot of times it's a system problem, not a kid problem. And I think we're putting the weight of that system on the child too. And that's a lot during that time. So, middle school friends, I'm just gonna stick up for you. And this is gonna probably make your life a little bit easier. Let me know. We're gonna ground this in something that we learn in teacher training. We have this really incredible educator, like hero superstar, a little bit of a funny name. His name is Dr. Harry Wong, and he's a legend.

Rules, Routines, And Real Safety

SPEAKER_00 6:05

And he has a book called The First Days of School. And it's kind of a teacher prep. Here's how to get your act together to be ready to teach. And he talked about the first days of school as being essential work for teachers. And this is where all the best work happens. I always think the first month of school is the best month of school because I get to explore their personalities and interests and get to know them as people, and then we can get to things like commas and periods and semicolons and stuff. But I want to know who these people are and what they're capable of to see where my class could go. And what was the work though? The work that we had to do are rules, procedures, and expectations. This man rocked my planet because I didn't have behavior problems. You would think I would. You know what I taught. But I established rules, procedures, and expectations, so I didn't have to get mad and say something to them that I didn't mean. Because it could happen. But kids obviously aren't bad. They're, I'm telling you, eighth graders, if there was a charity or like a puppy to save, these people, I mean, you know, you're hormonal, so your heart just, you know, all this oxytocin and this and that is going in all through them about different things. And something like a an animal can be just enough to get their hearts just pumping and they'll donate whatever you need to the animal shelter, right? A bunch of football kids donate huge bags of food and carry them and just because they wanted to help animals. So we just have to redirect them and corral them a little bit. That's all. We're just letting them have this beautiful land to play around in, but we have to put a fence around it. Otherwise, it could be bad. So that's all. No raccoons in an amusement park. The word matters. What is that word? Safety. This is the part we don't say loudly enough, I think, in that that doesn't stop at the classroom door. Like we provide safety, safety has to be consistent. Those rules, boundaries, and limitations aren't just school things, they're actually human development things, part of the system. And maybe there are a few small shifts that we could use to make life easier, knowing this, because it's hard. Teachers are managing 30 plus kids at a time, different needs, backgrounds, levels of support, intellectual deficiencies, abilities, wildly different interpretations of the rule only applies to me when I feel like it. Picture it. Families, you're exhausted, so we got that. You're working, juggling, loving your kids, of course, and trying to pick your battles without accidentally raising a tiny evil CEO negotiating bedtime like it's some kind of murder. But and I've I've I've heard about that. You're tired and breathe. It's okay. Teachers, it's okay. You deserve so much better. We all know this. We're gonna try harder. It's okay. Middle schoolers, yeah, okay. Things happen, but it's tomorrow's another day. Grace, that's the point of talking to you this evening with my cup of coffee. And in the overwhelming nature of our lives, something kind of predictable tends to happen. Boundaries will begin to move, and that can adjust in different ways. But rules can become, well, you know, that just this once thing or whatever. But consequences also become, you know, I said no, but you're tired, and honestly, I'm tired too. So fine. And listen, no shame, no here, none. We've all done this. I have done this, and I'll do it again. It's not about being perfect, it's about predicting, you know, being predictable. Perfection is terrible to apply to a person that just can't work. Like math can be perfect. It's it's literal and black and white, but we are all over the map in a spectrum. So being perfect isn't that's just subjective point of view of what's perfect. And everybody thinks a perfect pizza is totally different. But the quiet truth about middle schoolers is they don't really wake up thinking, how am I gonna ruin people's lives today? That's no. And a podcast honestly really jostled me into kind of implying that. And I was like, wait a second, watch me get on my high horse. They're really just kind of waking up, like, who am I and where do I belong? And oh my gosh, what's this and where's that? And their brains are just under construction and firing at a really high cylinder. The emotional center is so online, and the impulse control and decision making is definitely still developing. So, what you get is you know, big feelings and fast reactions, and not a lot of braking power. So it's like a race car and you know, incredible horsepower, but questionable little brakes. It looks impressive, but you better have the guardrails because wow. But another piece of that though is that middle schoolers are really wired to care deeply about what their peers think. You know, it's fine, we're all insecure, and there's a natural insecurity that comes with that age and the developing brain. So when they're in front of friends, everything feels bigger. So if they don't really want to say goodbye, getting out of the car, respect that. It just let them have a little space. And it's okay. They're gonna come back to you by giving them that room. It's a safe space to explore. But everything's just kind of louder and more important to them. So it tends to lead to moments where adults think, like, why are you doing this? and and kind of blaming them. And it's not defiance, it's just development. So we need to have a little grace. So when boundaries are inconsistent, kids will ask things like, you know, where's the line? And how, you know, can I trust that it's gonna be there tomorrow? And that's like kind of the whole game. And when the line keeps moving, they will push harder and harder, which looks like they're not listening. But what's actually going on is that they don't know when the rule actually applies, and that's a systems problem, not character flaw. It's

Consistency Beats Intensity Every Time

SPEAKER_00 12:20

a system. So, what do we do about it? Well, one thing is no, just like a teacher is taught in school, we never blame the kid. We just adjust our behavior and the way that we're communicating in order to make a better decision. That's called metacognition. Teachers are great at that. That's actually considered one of the hardest things to ever learn the ability to behave a certain way, watch a situation, calculate strategically what's going on, like a chess game, and adjust behavior accordingly. That's awesome. And some of us who are neurodivergent can do that better than others. Most neurodivergent people can pick up on patterns. So if we look at things a slightly different way, is that our middle schoolers aren't the chess game, they are playing chess, they're learning how to play as they go. So if we can help them out, we don't have to play for them. We just adjust gently and consistently and compassionately. We remember that consistency beats intensity every single time. Consistency will always beat intensity. You don't need to come in like some WWE wrestler and you know, some folding chair every time something goes wrong. You just need fewer rules, but enforced the same way every time. Something predictable and kind of boring, you know, but annoyingly consistent. And that's the key. There's no montage for consistency. It's like, you know, no Eye of the Tiger playing. It's more like, did we already talk about this? Yeah, we did, and here we are again. So what's the procedure? And that's the work. Practice over and over and over again. And that's what Harry Wong was teaching us about is to keep practicing this until we learn to communicate better and more effectively through metacognition. Connection is a big part of that because structure without connection is kind of harsh and cold. And as someone with hyper empathy, it really just makes my skin crawl. But connection without structure feels chaotic. But kids need both of this to some degree. They need to feel like you're on my team, but the rule still stands, so I feel safe. So this may sound something like, I don't know, I love you, I'm here for you, I get you're upset right now. However, the answer is still no because this is what we went through already, and this was the outcome. Just a reminder, it's not harsh, it's just safe. But it's a subtle reminder that you are still awesome, but this is still gonna be a no. It's okay. And they learn resilience. Environment is also part of the system because sometimes what we call a behavior problem, we label it that, you know, the labeling isn't such a great idea sometimes. We actually overload the nervous system of the kid and they can have panic attacks from this. And I see a lot of panic attacks that happen during the school day that families don't know about. Now, of course, I respect the child's privacy, but you're the family. So we all end up having a conversation, but the the child did never have to have the panic attack to begin with. So is it a smoke alarm or the fire? But they're also sleep deprived and overstimulated and socially really overwhelmed playing chess all the time. And now they're screen saturated, which is why we're doing the technology series to give you some good screen time, like good trouble. But that's not a moral failing by being overstimulated and sleep-deprived, it's a bandwidth issue

Overload, Screens, And What We Model

SPEAKER_00 15:55

part of the system. And when kids are out of bandwidth, behavior is the first thing to go out the window. I know this. When I'm tired, I get snarky. But finally, you know, modeling is probably the last part of the system that we need to go over because kids don't do what we say, they do what we do. Oh, do we model for these kids? You know the toddler that learned the word. So if we lose it when we're frustrated, they will learn to lose it and their frustration. Now that's the key. This is where I connected this into therapy. You know, from therapy school, it's like, oh, there's the pattern, and this is normal. Okay, no shame, just awareness. Save money, live better. Podcast. Repair matters more than perfection. So it's just about repair and redirection. Perfection, no go. I didn't handle that well. Let me try that again. Is so powerful. Adults can use it, and being a little self-deprecating can be helpful sometimes to be like, you know, when I was 13, I kind of did this. I'm going real bright. But explain how you learn from it. When good stuff happens, you experience ridiculous joy, but unfortunately, when bad things happen, that's when you learn the most because you have to learn a hard lesson that way. But you're way better off for it. Phoenix. So let me say this clearly to families and teachers. Please, I'm not trying to create a blame triangle here. And I hope I didn't. That's not the point. I'm trying to create a support triangle. When adults line up, the child will settle down. And middle schoolers, yeah, of course. This works with any age of kid. Any lining up doesn't mean agreeing on everything. You can't agree on pizza. It's not the battle. It don't have the battle. It just means that agreeing, the child needs clear expectations, consistent boundaries, and compassionate adults. That's it. Beautifully simple thing. So if you're sitting there thinking, like, oh no, I've been inconsistent, slow your roll, sis. You know, it's okay. Take a breath, not failure. It's information. Now you're aware. Oh wow, I do that a lot. Oops. Don't, don't, do not blame grace just as much for you as for them. You deserve just as much. So it's information and knowledge. And with knowledge is power. Knowledge is power, right? On schoolhouse rock. Yeah. You don't need to overhaul your life. That's not what we're saying. And this isn't therapy. It's just saying, wait a second. You need a small shift and one rule that you can enforce consistently this week or for the next couple of weeks is all you need to do to get started. It's just one boundary that can stay put. A moment of connection before correction. I remember that. Oh wow. Connection before correction. Yeah, we did that all the time. And the kids liked it too, actually, when I brought it into the classroom. But connection, people matter more than correcting people. Because what does that do? It's how change happens slow and steady and sustainable. So you have a happy class, and a happy class doesn't light the classroom on fire. So your middle school isn't broken. Your middle schooler isn't broken. You know, the school is broken financially, not emotionally. Your teachers are, we know this stuff. We went to school for it. And your kid is just gonna be okay. They're kids, they they never were broken. They're just responding to a system around them. And when the system gets steadier, they will too. They're just asking, let's have some grace and give kids a break. Give yourself a plan and watch what changes. And when in doubt, use my go-to neurodivergent adult buddy AI. I make a folder for everything. I even have one called Rando that I just ask the most ridiculous questions sometimes that pop in my head. Immediate feedback is my friend, and it certainly helps with anxiety. So you could model this type of thing to your middle schooler with using social media. That's a good use of screen time. It's to say, hey, what happens when this

Small Shifts And How To Connect

SPEAKER_00 20:10

happens? And if I have a plan and I can ask AI what to do about it, it can calm me down right away. So if you want to keep the conversation going, please come find me at msmarypoppins.com, Ms. Mary Poppins, and I'd love to hear from you. We have a new contest on the website where you can win a 45-minute session with your family. I will talk to, you know, I just want to get to know you and see what I can do to help. So if you're interested in that, go to the website, Miss MaryPopins.com, fill out the form, and I'm creating an email list. I promise not to email you very much unless it's important. But maybe once a month or maybe twice a month, we'll I'll send out some information that I've been thinking about with some skills and information. Also, parent guides and parent and family guides are going to go up on the website very soon that you can utilize. You can download them and practice some skills and just to really bolster what we're talking about here. And they'll be put into sections of certain podcasts to listen to all on a certain topic, like social skills. So I'd love to hear from you. And I'm really happy that we're building something together. No spam, I promise. And as always, be kind, be well, and you know what I'm gonna say stay clever, little foxes. And that means the adults too. Take care. Have a good night.