03: Empowering Women in Salary Negotiations: Practical Advice from Fotini Iconomopoulos

Kumiko discusses the challenges of increasing income for single moms and the importance of negotiation with Fotini Iconomopoulos, the negotiator. Fotini shares her background and negotiation strategies, emphasizing the 'say less' mentality. 

She provides valuable advice on preparing for salary negotiations and the significance of nonverbal communication in negotiation settings. In this conversation, Fotini Iconomopoulos shares valuable insights on negotiation skills, body language, and self-advocacy. 

She emphasizes the importance of confidence, preparation, and strategic communication in negotiation scenarios. Fotini also provides practical exercises and advice for women in salary negotiations. The conversation concludes with information on where to find Fotini's book and additional resources.

IMPACTFUL QUOTES

• "Take that power pose and you will get a lot more."
• "The two most powerful words in negotiation are 'based on'.'"
• "I want you to psych yourself up instead of psyching yourself out."

EPISODE CHAPTERS

>> 00:00 Introduction and Audience Overview
>> 03:20 Empowering Single Moms: Increasing Income Challenges
>> 08:23 The 'Say Less' Mentality in Negotiation
>> 15:58 Preparing for Salary Negotiations: 'Feel Good' Folder Approach
>> 51:33 Practical Exercises for Improving Negotiation Skills

ABOUT FOTINI

Best-selling author of HarperCollins’ “Say Less, Get More: Unconventional Negotiation Techniques to Get What You Want” Fotini Iconomopoulos is the person Fortune 50 executives call into to help with their high stakes negotiations or to empower their teams through her intensive workshops on negotiation, communication and persuasion.

Fotini occasionally returns to the classroom as an instructor of MBA Negotiations at the Schulich (SHOE-lick) School of Business at York University in Toronto. She’s a regular media guest on outlets including CBC, Forbes and Harvard Business Review, she’s been recognized with a number of awards including a Top 40 under 40 award.

You can learn more about her work and find more of her tips at www.fotiniicon.com or get her book here!

About Kumiko:

Kumiko Love is the creator of The Budget Mom, LLC, a national bestselling author of the book "My Money My Way," and an Accredited Financial Counselor.

She is a dedicated mom of two boys, a passionate sourdough baker, and the proud owner of Pine Manor Naturals.

With over 2 million followers across social media, Kumiko's expertise and approachable style have been featured in major media outlets such as Forbes, The New York Times, and Good Morning America.

As the host of The Miko Love Podcast, Kumiko dives into the exploration of her own passions and a range of captivating topics, offering fresh perspectives and engaging discussions about life. She inspires millions to take control of their financial lives while embracing passionate living and life fulfillment.

Thank you for being a part of our community!

Contact The Miko Love Podcast

• Follow me on Instagram @mikolovepodcast
• Email me at kumiko@mikolovepodcast.com

Thanks for listening & keep feeding your curiosity!

Transcript

0:02

Welcome to the Miko Love podcast. I'm your host, Kamiko Love. And what I'm not educating about personal finance is the budget mom. I'm here diving into the exploration of my own passions and exploring a range of captivating topics. It's time to dive into conversations that ignite curiosity and inspire. Raise your hand if you have a difficult time having hard conversations. Now know you probably can't see me, but I am definitely raising my hand. I'm the type of person where I don't like conflict. I get super uncomfortable, fidgety. I definitely probably don't look confident when I'm in those different types of situations. So today I am thrilled to introduce a powerhouse in the world of negotiation. Fotini Ikanopoulos, also known as the negotiator, is a renowned negotiation expert and the author of the acclaimed book, Say Less, Get More. Now with her extensive experience and unique insights, Focini has empowered countless individuals to negotiate their way to success. Now in today's episode, we're going to do a deep dive into the art of negotiating a raise and the nuances of salary negotiation, especially for women. We're going to explore the common hurdles women face in the workplace, strategies to confidently ask for what you deserve and how to navigate these really hard kind of conversations with finesse and power. This episode is packed with practical advice and powerful tips that you won't want to miss. So whether you're just preparing to negotiate your next raise or you simply just want to be better equipped for maybe future opportunities, this conversation with Botini is sure to inspire and empower you. So let's get started. Tell us, Botini, what is kind of your background and how did you become essentially what everyone calls you the negotiator? So it's a little bit of nature and a little bit of nurture. So I have always been that I was a kid who definitely had a fire in my belly. And I grew up in a very patriarchal, ethnic household where, you know, girls weren't supposed to do very much and listen to your parents and do what you're told. But I had bigger aspirations than that. I, you know, I hesitate to use the words fought back, but I definitely advocated for myself a lot more than I think the average kid. And that is why my dad nicknamed me the negotiator. I also haven't grown up in a Greek household. It was very normal for me to see people negotiating on a regular basis. I didn't spend a lot of time in Greece growing up, but I went there a handful of times as a child and then certainly a lot more as an adult. But it was very normal to negotiate stuff at the market, at car dealership. I always watched my dad negotiate. That was a normal thing for me to absorb. So I didn't think anything of it when I started doing the same thing everywhere I went to for every purchase that I made. And it certainly led me to a natural place where I was in sales. So I ended up getting my MBA in organization behavior and I ended up working getting recruited by companies like L 'Oreal where I ended up getting put in a sales role right away because they recognized that I had some skill and I was negotiating with Walmart on a regular basis. So I was one of the youngest people sitting in that vendor waiting room to speak to the buyers of one of the largest companies in the world, some of the toughest buyers out there. So I kind of got cut my teeth on some really high stakes negotiations really early. I spent a bit of time in consumer goods and then a company was hired to train us to be more effective at negotiating. And that's when they went, you should really be doing what we do. And I was like, yeah, sure someday when I have more experience, because I hadn't even hit 30 yet. And they said, no, seriously, you should be doing what we do. And these guys were 10 to 15 years older than me. There were these British, you know, tall men who looked nothing and sounded nothing like me. But they said, you should really be doing this. And so it took them a year to convince me to come on board. And so I joined them a year later and I started going all over the world, crisscrossing the world, teaching everybody from junior account managers and organizations that I used to work in to, you know, senior, you know, CEO level guys in million dollar or billion dollar oil and gas companies and everybody in between. So here I was, not even 30, telling these people how to be more effective at negotiation. And that slowly evolved into, it's great that you trained our team, but we have a hundred million on the line, we have a billion on the line, what do we do, what do we say? And so that naturally evolved into me guiding them through their real life negotiations, which was another level of kind of exhilarating and fun for me. Stuff that would scare other people away was very exhilarating for me. So I got involved in a very different. level and I just started using these skills that I had but continuously refining them, continuously learning about it, continuously learning on the job and in the background to prep for these crazy scenarios that I was facing on a daily basis. And then when I had to quit my job for legal reasons, I ended up getting calls from my clients going, when are you going to come back and work with us? And I was like, I don't work for that company anymore. They said, we didn't hire the company. We hired Fottini. We like working with you. And that just led to thinking, I guess I'll just do this till I have to get a real job. And then 10 years later and a whole bunch of other things that happened in between, I could admit it's a real job. it was really the joy of getting out there and advocating, being my best self advocate and then learning how to advocate for others and then teaching others how to advocate for themselves was exciting to me. So I just kept sharing this kind of stuff with my clients and online. And that's how my alma mater reached out and said, we want you to teach MBA negotiations. And I was like, okay. And then Harper Collins saw a video online and said, we think you have a book in you. And I was like, all right. So it was just where, you know, the more you talk it into the universe, the more you advocate for yourself, the more you create value for others, the more it just positively reinforces itself. So you strengthen this muscle from the time I was a kid to now, the more you teach it, the better you are at it too. So for me, it's just, it started off as a little fire in my belly and that was nurtured by some people. tried to repeat, my father tried to suppress it in some way. He's a big advocate now. But it just, it's just one of those things. You need to keep fueling it to keep being better at it. Right. And I, I mean, I love that negotiating is really advocating for yourself. And I think sometimes we don't see it that way. That's, love that. Okay. So in your book, so you're the author of the book, Say Less, Get More. and you discuss in the book various negotiation strategies. Could you share with our audience what you believe is the most kind of fundamental principle of negotiation that listeners should remember when they're trying to secure a raise for themselves at their current employment? So I would say not specifically for raises, but in general, the two first words of the title are what people need to keep in mind. this say less mentality. Say less means take the time to take everything in. Information is power, so let them give you information. Say less means take the time to think through rather than thinking and talking at the same time. Say less means not trying do that all the time. Well, we all do. It's a natural instinct. This is our fight or flight, natural cave person ancestry instincts that are kicking in, right? Right. This is why we need to resist that and press what I call our mental pause button to think through what we want to do and then do it. So when it comes to salary negotiations, that say less moment is not just in the negotiation itself, but it's taking that time before the negotiation happens to plan out what am I going to say and how am going to say it. You don't go in there winging it. That is the worst advice anybody could ever give you. I don't know any negotiation experts that would tell you to do that, but you do plan for everything. You plan to create those say less moments too. So you plan to go, okay, I know exactly how much I'm gonna share and how much I'm gonna hold back. I also know maybe I don't have the most self -control possible to shut up when I need to, so I'm gonna prepare questions to get them talking. I'm gonna prepare questions to get them thinking about solutions as well. So you're creating these say less, get moments, not only by just pausing your brain and telling yourself to shut up, but also creating tools for yourself to force them to give you more along the Right. And then you can use what they're saying as fuel, as power in your negotiations. Is that right? Yes, absolutely. That doesn't mean that you don't start by saying something, right? I want to be crystal clear. It's throughout the negotiation, you need to be careful to say less so that you're not giving yourself away. So you're not giving away too much information so that you're not coming off as over eager or weak or any of those things. But even if you plan the greatest negotiation ever, if you do not shut in the moments where you need to shut up, it's going to backfire. can you strategize those say less moments? Okay. So I know we were talking a little bit before I hit the record, but in that, you know, I'm the, I've never asked for a raise in my life. I was actually very, very blessed during my one and only job working in the finance industry. had an amazing boss who would just give me the raises because he knew I deserved it. mean, I know that doesn't happen very often, but he was an amazing boss who truly believed me and supported me. I am the type of person that I don't like conflict and I don't like uncomfortable conversations. I'm the type of person where I stay quiet or I steer clear or I back away. I have a hard time even when I know I deserve something, speaking up and saying it because I just get truly uncomfortable in those hard conversations. What do you say to our followers that are also like me that know they deserve a I've gotten it many, many times, Miko, inflation is killing me. The rising prices of everything is killing me and my employment, my job, my boss is just not keeping up with inflation. They're not giving me the raises I deserve. What do you tell these people that are super uncomfortable in these really hard conversations, like you said, advocating for themselves, knowing they deserve a raise, but they just don't know how to enter that conversation or what to say? Yeah. Well, the first thing I would tell them is you're not There are so many people, especially people who belong to disadvantaged groups, women in general, the research shows us, the majority feel this same way. So we don't like it. We don't like to have to advocate for ourselves. However, women will advocate hard for someone else, but not necessarily for themselves. that's so true. So I will say, A, you're not alone, but B, I want you to think about a reframe. If you would fight this hard for someone else, Why wouldn't you fight this hard for yourself? And if you're not gonna do it, who will? Right? Who else is going to put you as the priority to make your life better? And I would add another reframe. If you're thinking, I don't like this, and there's so many fears that drive so much of this, right? There's two overwhelming fears I hear about over and over when it comes to negotiation. One is people tell me they don't wanna look stupid. So maybe it's fear of rejection. Maybe it's fear of leaving something on the table. Their ego is basically leading that fear. But the other fear is, don't want to damage the relationship. so oftentimes when it comes to salary negotiations, it's what if they see me as greedy or bitchy or any of those things that are stereotypically biased towards people like me? What if they rescind the offer? What if I'm penalized for it? And this is where I tell people we can make great Because not only will you not look stupid if you negotiate for yourself in a way that is collaborative, but you can actually make better relationships instead of damaging them. So I tell people to advocate for themselves in a way that is not combative. Because one of the things that we talked about at the very beginning of this conversation is that it's just two people having a conversation. Every conversation you have is a negotiation. So can you change your mindset to go, this is just a conversation between two This is just a problem solving opportunity for the both of us. Because when you think about it, when you really distill it down, the why you're doing this is to make this sustainable. Sustainable for you because inflation is going crazy and so on, but also sustainable for your employer. Because if you leave, they're going to get If you leave, it's going to cost them more money to train your replacement and so on. I've talked to recruiters about what the figures are like and what it costs people to hire and all of that kind of stuff. So you're actually, if you want to totally reframe it, you are doing them a favor. I know it sounds far -fetched, but you're doing them a favor by negotiating all because you can build better relationships. You can make this a mutually beneficial conversation by focusing on what can make this sustainable. And I don't say that by saying, you know, the underlying tone is, if you don't do this, I'm going to threaten to leave. I'm not, I never recommend people threatening anything. Right. Right. You can be curious. You can be, you know, cooperative. You can be problem solving about this as opposed to assuming what we assume when negotiations is it's going to be combative. Someone's going to be banging their fist and so on. And that's why we stay away from them altogether. Right. There doesn't have to be that type of consequence if you handle it appropriately. And quite frankly, on the very rare occasion, on the very rare occasion that it is handled that way where they punish you or whatever. And again, those are very, I rarely hear those stories. Then you have just dodged a bullet and it's the kick in the pants you need to go find another job or maybe litigate. And if you need great lawyers, I know lots of those too. It's a good thing. It's a good thing that you know. Okay. So what are some really effective ways for listeners to prepare? for a salary negotiation and how would one go about kind of gathering all this information to kind of have this constructive conversation to present their case and to be really the most persuasive? What are some of the ways to prepare for that? So the number one thing I tell people is start early. So. Let's think chronologically for a second. Usually, let's assume a typical company will do that end of year December. Hey, congratulations. You get the merit increase of 2 % even though inflation is at 7%. Right. And then people assume this is the time to try to negotiate that. But what happened was a month before that, a bunch of executives probably sat in a room and went, okay, we only have X amount of dollars to allocate for salary increases or wages and stuff like that this year. Where should they and somebody was in there either advocating for you or not advocating for you. So now we're in at least November. So if you have to backtrack, you need to be in the ear of that person who's going to be your advocate or maybe in the ear of two different people, because who knows what the chain of command is like, which means you need to start in the early fall in order to be ready to get the best offer when December rolls around. Now, in order to do that, you need to start even earlier than that. So I tell people to start with what I call a feel good folder. And I literally have a folder in my Outlook inbox where every time I get praise, every time I get a thank you, an accomplishment of some kind, it goes into that feel good folder. So when I need to tell somebody about all of the great things that I've been doing, when I need to justify why I deserve to get more money, why I deserve that next promotion, that title increase, any of those things, I now have in chronological order all of the wonderful things that have been said about me. So there's two things. One is keeping track of all this stuff because I have been in a room with, I remember I was traveling with a client once. We were both offsite sitting in a hotel, working on our work. And she's like, I'm preparing for this end of year meeting. I don't even know what I did this year. I'm like, I know what you did this year. I've been working with you every month for the last six months. You did this, this, this, this, and this. And I had to tell her what she did. So you need to keep track of those things. But the even better part of the feel good folder is you now have those in someone else's words. You have testimonials. You have what we call in persuasive language, social proof. You have proof that it's not just you. So it doesn't have to feel icky that, I did this and I did this, though I'm telling you, okay, to say I did this. But you also have other people said this. You now have testimonials which don't feel quite as icky and they carry a lot of weight and credibility and authority. with other folks too, because they're going, if someone else noticed this person's talents, I guess I should be noticing this person's talents or I'm going to look really stupid. And that ego works to your advantage. Right? So we're starting early by keeping track, right? We're keeping chronological order. have all of the wonderful things. If you're not getting emails from those people and those thank yous, make sure you're inserting your own entries in that feel good folder and that you are keeping track of everything that you have Because if you were to track what is your job description versus what you are doing, I suspect many people in your audience are doing far more than the job description. 100%. Yeah. And if you are not recording that and logging that and telling someone about that, very few of us live in a meritocracy where someone's just going to notice it out of the blue. You need to be able to communicate that and advocate for yourself and make sure that people are aware of all the things that you are doing. So that compare and contrast from here's my job description. Here's what I'm doing above and beyond that. By the way, here's all the accolades that I've been getting from other people too. Now you get to ask this really curious collaborative question of what can we do to make sure that I continue to exceed expectations this year? How are we going to make sure that this pace that I'm on is sustainable? You can now ask those questions to make sure that they're now a participant in your success. You're inviting them into the process. They may say, you're on track, you're doing great. That's them acknowledging that you're doing great. Or maybe they have some feedback to make sure you're going to exceed those expectations. And now you got more, you got all this valuable information, all because you asked a really clever question. But when they say it, they now feel accountable to it. So their subconscious brain is going, I said that this person should get to this marker. I acknowledge that they are great. Therefore, I should be telling someone else that they're great, or I should be behaving as though they're great. So you're using their subconscious mind to your advantage as well. Got it. Okay. I don't want you to wait till the end of the year to share all of these great things in your feel good folder. I want you to think about is there a check -in that I should be doing maybe every quarter, maybe every month, depending on how your job is structured and so on and so forth. As soon as you have really great news, when it's hot off the presses, you go do one of those check -ins, you share that big win. You remind them of the big win when it's coming up into those moments where you know they're going to be making decisions on the other side of things as well. So, newness is great, recency is really great, social proof is really great, but it requires a level of preparedness that I think most people kind of dismiss. yeah, I would never think to do a feel -good folder. In fact, I worked in the finance industry for almost nine years. I don't think I ever once kept track of any of the things that I accomplished except for like, I got this designation or I passed this test. but none of those other things that are worth that social proof that I would never ever think to document. Maybe a client said something nice like, Miko, you really helped me today. You make things a lot easier here. That's something that I would probably put in my feel good folder. Okay, so we're starting early. We have our feel good folder. Now I'm the type of person that I would take this feel good folder and I would just hand it to them. That's not a terrible thing. okay. I mean, I mean, you maybe you want to make it a little bit more sophisticated. Maybe you want to make a presentation. I don't care. But you might feel, hey, just so to make it easier for you and to make it easier for me, I thought I would help you. Right. You're now sounding like you're being this cooperative person. I thought I'd help you see what I've been up to and what other people are seeing out there. I don't think that's a terrible thing at all. Okay. I I remember even when I was working, I was working at Smucker's, the food company for a while. Yes. I had just had one of my first meetings with a new buyer. Like I had never dealt with this person. I had dealt with all the cosmetics people when I worked at L 'Oreal, but I had never dealt with this food person before. And I had a really lovely meeting, a really long meeting in fact, with this buyer who everybody warned me, she's going to be a nightmare. She makes everybody cry. She's been in the business for 30 years or whatever. I was like, yeah, thanks for the pep talk. I remember it was a 45 minute drive to get back to the office. And by the time I got back to the office, I looked at my Blackberry at the time. Yes, I'm dating myself. And I had this really lovely email from her saying, Fottini, I wish everybody was as prepared as you were for these meetings. Thanks for a great meeting. And I showed it to my VP and he's like, what spell did you cast on this woman? But I hit it, I showed it to them the second it was off the presses. There is no shame in forwarding an email saying, with thought you'd like to know, or I had this really great thing happen today. It made the team look really great. It made me look really great. I think it made you look really great. Here's something, you know, that people are buzzing There's no shame in that. So if you want to print it off and say, hey, I've got all these things right here, be able to speak to them. Don't be shy about talking about them. Don't assume they're going to leaf through everything. So give them the highlights at least. Don't be afraid to talk about it and leave all the work to them. Yeah. I think that's where I'd be because I would be, like I said, because I don't like kind of praising myself and showing those things. So I would definitely be the type one to just hand them the folder because I don't want to have the conversation like, here's just the folder. do something about it, you know? It's not a bad thing to advocate for ourselves. In fact, a friend of mine wrote a book, Lisa Bragg wrote a book called Bragging Rights. And so I recommend if you are that uncomfortable doing this, read that book, get comfortable with the idea, get used to taking compliments even, because we often dismiss those too, right? Yes. So, you know, when someone says thank you to you, here's a really important one, I think, that's going to be that's going to make a big difference for your listeners when it comes down to the end of the year, and it's time to, you know, fight for that, that raise or whatever it If all year when someone has been saying thank you to you, if you just go, no problem, it was no big deal. Really, it was nothing. Because that's the natural instinct for so many of the lovely people I meet in my world. But the second you do that, you took what was a moment of power and you threw that away. So when they said thank you to you, they felt indebted to They felt obligated to do something for you. It's this element of reciprocity that we have in society, this innate subconscious need to reciprocate when someone has done something nice for us. But the second you said it was no problem. So if you tell your boss, it's no problem. I don't mind staying late. It's no big deal. Then they're going and you say, you're totally welcome. Then they go, I'm welcome to keep dipping into her energy, her resources and so And then you look around and go, why am I the only one taking all the extra jobs around here? Why am I the only one that's burnt out around here? And it's because you've been dismissive. You just need to take the compliment. You need to say, I appreciate that at the very least. Just take it on board and say, I appreciate you recognizing that. I would hope you even take it one step further and say, I'm sure if roles are reversed, you would do the same for me. Now that's reinforcing this element of reciprocity. And guess when roles are going to be reversed. When they're in a position to do something nice for you, perhaps at the end of the year, when they're advocating for you in a room with all those other executives, this is your moment. Don't throw away those tiny little moments of power. Use them and cash them in when it counts. And it's not an icky manipulation thing. It's just a making sure we're doing this whole social contract of reciprocity and give and take. Don't null the contract when they're throwing it in the face. Right. Okay. In your expertise, how significant is, We talked about, you know, communication, verbal communication. How significant is nonverbal communication in negotiation settings? So could you provide some examples of nonverbal cues that could enhance or undermine someone's position when they're negotiating? Because I know for me, like nonverbal things, I feel like for me would show how intimidated and nervous I was in a situation like So can you explain a little bit more about that? Okay. So let's backtrack for a second. When it comes to confidence in negotiation, that is a critical ingredient to your success. And what you're telling me is I don't feel confident going in there and it shows in my body language. Right. And so you need to start by revving up your confidence. And so there was a really cool study that was done by Dr. Amy Cuddy and it's been debated a bunch and what they found was over and over again, they replicated this one outcome from the study. They found that when people adopted power poses. So anything that takes up physically more space, something like the Wonder Woman pose with the hands on hips. If you've ever run a race, know, the first thing you want to do is a big V for victory. Anything. If you've ever been on public transit, you are familiar with the, with the behavioral science world actually calls the man spread. Anything that takes up more physical space. When you adopt that for two minutes, you will actually be telling your brain to catch up to what your others are seeing in your Right, so you might feel like crap going in there. might feel super intimidated, but after two minutes, your brain is actually gonna catch up to what the other party sees. So we need to really rev your brain up with confidence. And that's a really easy way to do it, right? Say less for a moment, take that power pose and you will get a lot more. Now, on the flip side of it, what they actually see, if you are this person who's hiding behind their computer or chewing on your fingernails or crouching down and taking up a little bit of space, practically the fetal position in a boardroom chair kind of thing. Then they're going to see you as small, as intimidated, as manipulated, as moldable, and that is not what we want. So we want to take up more physical space. We want to send the message that I deserve to be here. I deserve to be listened to. I am taking up this space with my pilates shoulders nice and wide and my spine nice and tall because I am credible. and what I am saying, the words that are gonna come out of my mouth are gonna be credible too, and I believe them. Because if you don't believe them, why should I believe you? So you need to convince yourself first, and then you'll be able to convince others as well. Now there's a few other little things along the way to think about in terms of if you really do worry about this feeling adversarial or combative and so on, think about even the seating plan in the room. If you're not at a round table, Can you, instead of sitting across from somebody, can you sit on the corner? Can you sit so that they can, you're not hiding behind a table, but you're actually perpendicular to them. If you're in a boardroom, it's natural to sit perpendicular to each other. If one of you takes the corner and one of you takes the side versus feeling like it's very, you know, one party against the other when you're sitting across from one another. This also goes for dating, by the way. So you sitting across from someone on a date could be really awkward, but sitting next to them or sitting, you know, perpendicular to them. It makes you, physically see more of the person. And so it doesn't look like you're hiding. It doesn't look like it's adversarial. And so it can actually help to make it feel like this conversational, uncombative type of environment. Now, if you're in an office and you're sitting across from someone, they're behind their desk and you're sitting in a chair across from them, that's not going to really change much. But again, don't have your laptop. so curled up in a small position on the chair, spread yourself out, lean your arm against the back of the chair, lean forward and put your hands on the table because you are so enthusiastic about what it is that you are saying. Vary your body language to make it seem as though you are passionate about what you are doing. You always want to make sure that you're going to be poised. When it comes to the physical room layout, when you're sitting behind a desk, if you're sitting at this boardroom table, you're covering part of your body, right? So it seems a bit more closed off and it can feel adversarial when you're sitting across from a person like that. Whereas if you were to shift and you were to move to the side of the table, so you're sitting perpendicular to somebody now, you're actually more open because you're not hidden by the table. When we're hidden, there's this element in our subconscious brain that's going to go, why are they hiding from me? Why is the shield up in front of It just seems more collaborative. feels more conversational rather than adversarial when you can have that perpendicular moment or even side by side, if it's appropriate to say, Hey, I've got these documents, would love to walk you through it. And that might be totally fine as well. This helps for the dating world too, by the way. So if you're sitting across from one another, it could feel a little more awkward than if you're sitting, you know, just having a more open conversation. Now, if you're sitting in an office where your manager is sitting behind a desk and you're on the other side, it's not the end of the world. But again, there's things that you can do. want you to make sure you're sitting up nice and tall. I don't want you hiding behind your laptop and trying to balance it on your lap. Put it on the table, put it on their desk in front of them if you need to do that kind of thing versus trying to become like a tight little ball and hiding behind that thing. You just want to make sure you show up as credible as possible and as open as possible. There's little things that, you know, I'm sure people are somewhat intuitively familiar with like arms crossed, seams closed off. And it's not so much that I want you to overanalyze your body language, because I think there's actually a lot of wasted energy there, quite frankly. I'd rather you spend that mental energy on thinking about what you're going to say. But I don't want you doing some of those giveaways of being small. want you to make your brain work more productively just by giving yourself that little physical pep talk and a mental one too, so that you will get better outcomes when you get in there. There is some watchouts and negotiation that I will point There's a very, very common one that I see all the time. People want the other party to feel like they're being acknowledged or heard. So our natural kind of signal for that is I'm going to nod my head while you're talking. So it means that though I'm with you and I'm listening to you, that can be dangerous in negotiation because if they're giving you a proposal, like this is your salary and you're going, -huh, yeah, okay. Then it looks like you're in agreement with that. So their brain's registering it That's totally cool with them. So when it comes out of your mouth that you're not cool with it, they're going, wait, what? So you're nodding your head. So you want to make sure in a negotiation setting that your vocal and your body language are consistent with one another. So resist the temptation to be that bobblehead in the room, because I want you to, you can signal that you're listening by just shutting up, by taking notes, by leaning forward. Any of those things can signal I'm here and I'm listening and you are heard. I don't want you going over the edge of doing this bobblehead thing that could send a very mixed message that could get you into some trouble. It's just creating an extra hurdle that you're going to have to get over. Okay. Yeah. I would never think of that. Okay. Interesting. Now, so what happens when you go into this and you have your feel good folder and you did all these things to be as prepared as possible? What happens if, let's say the raise isn't granted and what would be the best steps to take that type of rejection and how should one maintain say this professionalism and perhaps set a stage for future opportunities to try again? Yeah. So I always tell people no is not the end of the negotiation. That is just to be continued. It might be continued right now. It might be continued in a few weeks from now. Let's do the work and figure out when it's going to be continued. That means that if they say no, it depends on what the no is. If they say, don't have the budget for it, okay, what's keeping us from having the budget for it? What will create that budget? I'm gonna be ready with questions galore. So it's not just, if they say, well, when things get better, what does better look like? Give me some milestones. Give me some markers so that in the future I can use those markers to go, hey, remember when you said, because they feel accountable to what they said. Remember when you said when the next client comes in or when the numbers become this or when we hit the next quarter profits or whatever it is. Remember when you said that? This sounds like the right time then for us to consider to rehab this conversation. So if you can get specifics, great. If they're being vague, don't let them. If they don't give you a why, ask for one. But be very careful about how you ask that question. So I always tell people, people get very defensive about the question why. I don't know why. I know studies show us this. But if you don't believe me, just ask your partner at home tonight, why'd you do that? And they're gonna be like, why are you attacking me? Why are you yelling at me? That's the natural kind of what we hear, even though that's not what's intended. So intention and perception are very different things. So it's asking a how or what question. what is stopping us from doing that? What would it take for us to get over that hurdle? How can we find a solution to help us work around that? Engage them in this problem solving opportunity. If they say not right now, well then when? If they say not yet, you don't have enough experience, what does experience mean to you? How can we define? How will we know when I have enough experience? You want to get very solid information. Information is power. So if they're not going to give you a raise, at the very least, they've got to give you some information to go on. And if they're constantly being vague, if they're constantly giving you nothing, This is a huge red flag. This is not an employer who's trying to be cooperative with you. And this means you should start beefing up your resume and start looking elsewhere because if they're being that evasive, something else is up and they're probably they're not working in a trustworthy manner. Yeah. I mean, you've worked with a lot of bigger corporations and different types of managers and employees. Would you say that a lot of the time what happens is whether the manager or the boss, the person that people would be going to to ask for a raise are, I feel A lot of the time is vague because they don't want to have that conversation. They don't want to deal with that conversation. Yeah. And they think that's going to work. And for lot of people, does. People give up and I'm telling you, you're not. Yeah. Like they're just being dismissive just to get you out of the room. Absolutely. Because they don't want to take on the work and the responsibility to make this happen for you because it's going to be work. If they don't have it in their hands at the moment, then it means they're going to have to go advocate for you somewhere or they're going to have to build a plan with you to get to that place. them do the work, make them accountable in a very cooperative way. Right. It's okay to do that. Right. So make them accountable. That is what managers are supposed to be doing. They are managing your career with you. They're not allowed to be dismissive of you. So just make them do the work in that questioning, curious, problem solving way. Right. Okay. And from your experience, do you have specific advice for women? when negotiating salary and benefits considering, we've talked a little bit earlier, but this gender pay gap, that's one of the big things that I hear among listeners. What specific advice for women do you have when negotiating salary and benefits with that information? Okay, first of all, you need to do your homework and do your research around what are other people like you making? And I don't mean you as in people who look exactly like you. I mean the general public. So one of the mistakes that I think that other women make is that they only talk to other women. And it's important to talk to as many people as possible, but what if you're talking to a bunch of underpaid people and now you're only advocating for another underpayment? So do your research and make it as unbiased as possible. Talk to other men, talk to people who belong to a privileged group, find that information online. Things like, I'm trying to remember some of them out Indeed, Glassdoor, all of those websites that are out there. There's very industry specific stuff too. Talk to your associations. If you went to a university, talk to your alma mater. Their alumni association has this type of the career center, has this type of data and information at their fingertips. So make sure you are well -researched so that you know what you deserve when you go in there. You're not taking a biased perspective of that. And talk to mentors and all that other kind of stuff. Find out what you can. People aren't gonna wanna answer this question, by the way. So if you go, so how much are you making? People are worried about the consequences of that because the legislation is very different from one geography to another, even within the US and within Canada and so on, it's very different. So you don't want someone to feel like they're getting themselves into trouble. So you wanna ask an appropriate question that they feel safe to answer. If you were in my position, if you had the same experience as me, what would you expect? So now you're not asking them to open up their contract to you're asking them for an opinion on something that is hypothetical, right? This is now an advice thing. But the other thing I want you to think about is when you're doing that research all over the place, they are giving you averages. So those averages mean there are some people who are overpaid and there are some people who are underpaid. Do not take the average as gospel because if you are advocating for yourself to get a raise or promotion or whatever it is, it's probably because you're not average. You're not doing the average amount of work. You're just meeting the career objectives. You're probably exceeding them. And that's why you're here in the first place. So I want you to add what I call the not average tax. So you're going to add this extra layer of finances to this average number because you're not average. That's not why you're here in the first place. So make sure that you have accurate information, not average information, and that it comes from unbiased perspectives. So that way, here's the most important I'm going to share with you on this entire subject of salary negotiations. That way you get to use the two most powerful words in negotiation. In fact, let me backtrack. The two most dangerous words in negotiation are, think. I think signals I'm about to give you an opinion. And if you're about to give me an opinion, guess what I'm going to do? I'm going to put my back up against the wall and I'm going to be ready to give you my opinion. And if we're both giving each other opinions and they're opposing opinions and now we're just arguing, and that is the combative thing we're trying to avoid. But to replace those two terrible words with the most powerful words in negotiation, they are based on, based on my research, based on my knowledge of the industry, based on the information that I have from alumni groups and so on, or based on whatever. You don't have to tell them sources. This is not academia. You don't have to cite anything. Just tell them based on my knowledge of this. That's all they need to know is that you're coming together credible. and authoritative. Whatever is going to come out of your mouth is going to be perceived as fact instead of opinion. That makes you far more credible. That increases the power you have going in there. So based on my knowledge, this is what I would expect for someone who's hitting these milestones, for someone who's exceeding expectations the way I am and so on. What can we do to make sure that I am getting paid appropriately or that I'm being compensated appropriately for that? So I'm being compensated equitably for something like You can use those words. They're not bad words to use. In fact, I had one former student reach out to me and she ended up saying in her meeting, she's like, look, I don't want to be one of those statistics. And the big alarm bells were going off for the person on the other side because it was a really big company and they didn't want to be caught out doing the thing that was wrong. So there is a woman of color who's saying, I don't want to one of those statistics. I'm flagging it for you here. I'm warning you exactly what you should not be doing. What can we do to make this equitable? and to make sure that I'm compensated appropriately. okay. Yeah. So word choice is huge. Absolutely. And again, less is more, right? So you're going to be succinct. You're going to show them you've done the research with those two words based on, you're going to use that number and you're going to make a proposal. know this sounds like the most daunting thing I could ever tell it's terrifying. Yeah. It's terrifying. But it shouldn't be terrifying when you think about the fact that you're well researched. Right. That you're coming in with this mindset of, I'm here to make this sustainable for the both of us. And if they can't do it, all they have to do is tell me they can't do it because I'm not coming in banging my fists on the table. I'm not coming in making threats. I'm just asking a really curious question. Like, what can you do to get me to this place that would be equitable and sustainable? And if they say we can't do that, that's okay. Then you say, what can you do? How close can you get to that figure? And then you are in the position of power to decide whether that's okay for you or not. But if you don't put that proposal on the table, you're putting yourself in a weaker power position. You're letting them drag you wherever they want you to go. So take the ownership, accumulate the power of doing the research, knowledge is power, and then use that power in order to come up with that based on statement. Okay. And I know before I hit the record, we were talking about needing to increase our income. There are a lot of people out there who right now who are needing to increase their income. And we talked a little bit about this side hustle culture where everyone's going out and getting their jobs, right? Instead of maybe looking at the opportunity that they have in front of them with their current employment. You've been in this industry for a while. Would you say that when you go in with all of these different things, your feel good folder, all these, the way that you were things, you know, taking up space, being confident, doing all the right things, would you say more often than not, a raise is given? I guess I'm asking is, do you see this often where these, you are getting the raise rather than the rejection. I wish I had more formal research to show you because it changes so much. And when I start digging for that research, but I can tell you, I talk to thousands of people on a regular basis, people in my audience is so on and people drop me DMs and I encourage all of your audience to drop me DMs too. I love to hear these stories. In fact, I've put so many of those stories in my book, but I get way more success stories. never get any like, my, they fired me stories. I never get right? So that's a vote of confidence. I do occasionally get the stories of people who go, look, I tried and it didn't work and it seemed like a legitimate reason why it didn't work, but man, do I feel good about myself. So there's always a positive outcome because now you've learned how to flex that muscle, that muscle of self advocacy. And so when that opportunity comes again, cause remember I said, no, it's not the end. just not yet. It's to be continued. Right. Now you know how to do it. You know that there's not going to be any of those awful consequences that you've given yourself validation to be able to go back and have a more productive conversation with that extra knowledge, which is power for the next time around. I can't tell you how many times I've had conversations with people who stopped me in audiences. People, someone just stopped me at brunch on Sunday. I was out at a restaurant in Toronto where I live and someone's like, did you write this book? Somehow she recognized me from my photo on the And I was like, yeah, she goes, it was so helpful to me. It helped me with this big job negotiation I just had. I get so many of those stories. It's heartwarming to me. It's encouraging to me. And I hope that it's encouraging to anybody who's listening. Right. And I feel like even if you go even further and the company did not give you a raise, but they were all the things and giving you all the red flags that this is a sign to look for something else. This is a time to leave. think that could. may not feel like at the time, but that could also be a blessing in disguise as well. Absolutely. I can't tell you when I left a previous job that wasn't serving me anymore, I cannot tell you the riches that came from walking away from something that wasn't serving me and finding something so much better. And I've heard those stories from people too. Look, I went to my employer, they wouldn't give me that. And I decided I needed to look for something else and I have a 25 % salary. Better than I did before. Like I've heard lots of those stories too. So I do believe that there is better outcomes to come, but you need to have that first self advocacy conversation in order to know what your destiny holds. Right. Okay. So I want to give you an opportunity at the end to share obviously where people can reach you more about where they can find your book. Could you share two exercises from your book that our listeners can practice? to improve their negotiating skills? Is there anything that they can do at home, whether that's standing in a mirror and practicing being confident and talking confidently, are there any exercises they can practice? So the very first one that comes to mind is, I want you to psych yourself up instead of psyching yourself out. So I hear the dread in your voice when you talk to me about not wanting to negotiate. I hear the dread in so many people's voices when they have these same conversations with me. What if you could turn that dread into something else? So there was a really cool study that was done back at Harvard in 2013 where they had people sing in front of a group. Now, getting in front of a microphone is not a problem for me, but I saw you cringe. that. I was funny because my husband tried getting me do a karaoke this weekend and I literally was like, you could not pay me a billion dollars. I would never, ever, ever. Like there is no, like there is nothing you can do, say I would never do a karaoke like ever. So that is a very common response. And yet what they did was they split up these people into three groups and they told them, regardless of how you're feeling, I want you to tell yourself, group number one, I want you to tell yourself, I am anxious, right? And that is in line with what you're feeling. In group number two, they told them, I want you to tell yourself, I am excited. And in group number three, they told them nothing at all. That was the control group. What they found was according to a computer that measured each singer's volume and pitch, the group that told themselves, am excited, outperformed the other two groups. And we know it wasn't because they were better singers. We know this because they also outperformed them on a math test and a speech test. That's statistically impossible. So it's all because they psyched themselves up instead of psyching themselves out. They changed their brain. They unblocked opportunities because they weren't. crowded by all of these other things that were floating around in their brain. So if you could tell yourself before you go in for this conversation, I am so excited to show them my feel good folder. I am so excited to have a plan for what is it going to get me to exceed those objectives, to get to that next hurdle and so on, to get my boss on board with my action plan for success, whatever you want to label it. But if you can tell yourself, I am excited. I guarantee you'll get better results than you would have otherwise. So that is the number one thing I want you to do before you even go in there. Do the power poses and stuff too. But the other thing I want you to be ready to do is you can do this at home with your partners, with your children, with anybody around you. When you think the conversation's over, ask another question and then shut up. Just be curious for a second. It's not in a scary way. It's just going, well, that's interesting. What makes you say that? cool, interesting answer could you get from the person when they're telling you about their favorite TV show, when they're telling you about their day at the grocery store, when they're telling you about this weirdo that they had to deal with at work, you know, whatever it is, if you could just ask one more question and learn how to shut up and just listen to that answer. And just let them talk. Absolutely. And you will find that you will actually end up with better relationships as a result of it. So imagine if you can do that everywhere in your life, in your personal Imagine what that can do for you in your professional life as well. Okay. I want every single one of my listeners to go out and get the books. They let's get more. can you tell us where the listeners can find you, where they can find your book? The good news is it's everywhere. Amazon is obviously the most obvious. If you have read it, if you could leave a review and let everybody else know what you thought of it, that's like gold for people in my world to tell other others to read it too. But all the major retailers, Barnes and Noble in the States, Indigo in Canada, it's all over the world. And even in like, there's a printer in India, I think, who's also published it over in Asia. it's available everywhere and that is great news. It's also on audio and eBooks, so you can find it in any format you'd like. I'm everywhere online as well. All my social media handles are at Foteini icon. I answer questions on Instagram all the time and save them in my highlights. I share stuff on LinkedIn, on the regular. If you are in a professional space, you should be on LinkedIn and following me there. And my DMs are always open too, if you have questions. Okay, perfect. And I'll make sure to put all of this information in the show notes, in the description. That way we can all find Fottini and get help, additional help if we need to, or just have a place of support. I think that's really important. I should also mention there's two things that I've got going on. So one is I have a free guide on my website currently. So if you go to Fottiniicon .com quiz. You can learn about what is your natural negotiation style. I already know what yours is. But you can learn about what are the pros and what are some of the watch outs for your natural negotiation style. And later this year, I'll be adding more more guides to that resource. So follow along at fotiniicon .com too. Amazing. Well, thank you so much for being a guest on the podcast. I really appreciate your time. Thank you for having me. I hope people find it valuable. Thank you so much for joining us on this episode of the Miko Love Podcast. And a huge thank you to Fotini for sharing her invaluable expertise on negotiation. Remember, negotiating raise isn't just always about more money. Sometimes it's just about recognizing your worth and advocating for yourself in the workplace. If you are enjoying the podcast, make sure to subscribe, share this podcast with your friends, and leave a review wherever you are listening. Your support helps me reach even more listeners and keeps the conversation going. Until next time, keep feeding your curiosity.