Episode 6 - HCV Talk: Can Palm Oil & Biodiversity Conservation Coexist? with HCVN

Ecosystems, including forests, wetlands, and biodiversity hotspots, are often portrayed as being in crisis in anti-palm oil campaigns, fueling calls for boycotts as a way to protect them. But can palm oil cultivation and broader conservation efforts coexist in a way that aligns with sustainable development?

Joining our host, Fara Rom, is Ruth Silva from the High Conservation Value (HCV) Network, who shares insights into ongoing conservation efforts—and how the palm oil industry can help protect biodiversity while meeting global demand sustainably.

Learn more about sustainable palm oil at www.rspo.org.

*The views and opinions expressed on The Palm Pod are solely those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect those of The Palm Pod or the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO).

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

You are now listening to the palm pod brought to you by RSPO, the global partnership with Palm Oil Sustainable. Hi, I'm Fararong, and you're tuning into the Palm Pod, where we host engaging discussions, expert insights, and industry updates on sustainable palm oil, guiding consumers and businesses to make better choices for the planet. When you think of palm oil, do deforestation and barren landscapes come to mind? It's a narrative we've heard time and time again, but it's not the whole reality. As the world pushes for sustainability, balancing economic prosperity with environmental responsibility has become essential. What if I told you that palm oil can thrive sustainably alongside biodiversity conservation? To help us navigate the important conversation, I am joined by Ruth Silva from the High Conservation Value Network, HTVN, to discuss the current state of our ecosystem and extensive conservation efforts within the sustainable palm oil sector. Welcome to the palm pot, Ruth.

SPEAKER_01 1:05

Thank you. Nice to meet you.

SPEAKER_00 1:07

Nice to have you here. So before we dive into the discussion, can you share about your journey in sustainable development and conservation, which spans over two decades?

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Thank you, Farah. You make it sound like a very long time. Feeling old, but yeah, I think that possibly I could go much earlier than that to my childhood, but I won't go that far. I think that for me, um I began as an anthropologist career-wise, and I work uh very extensively with indigenous peoples in protected areas, where quite often we would see any kind of development of the land as a big challenge because put at risk the livelihoods and the culture of the communities that have been tours of the forest for, well, centuries really. I was used to being the conservation side and I used to be kind of challenging uh development and seeing it as an absolute threat. And at some point during my career, I had an opportunity to do a training for FSE auditing. It was a bit random, you would say. And I said, what is this about? What is certification? And then I realized that there was a different way to look at development, and I also realized something that had been kind of nagging me, which is these economies are going to reach the forests and they are going to reach the communities. And the communities themselves are reaching out to the markets, are reaching out to other opportunities for the next generation. So how do we find a balance? How do we find a way in which the needs of the world and the needs of the local communities can be satisfied, but without destroying these resources on which their life and their culture relies so heavily? And for me that was the beginning. But I think that the next big step was realizing that it's not just the life of these communities that depends on these forests and ecosystems. It is our own life. Those of us sitting in our computer very far away in a city, possibly not seeing a bird or a tree the entire week, we are not necessarily aware that we also rely on these habitats. We also rely on these forests that communities have protected for many years. And if they get destroyed, it's not just their livelihoods that are lost, their culture that is lost. It's our own life as a species. So I got a sense that we had to at least try to find a way to make things work. So we can work on development, but it doesn't have to be at the expense of our own survival.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

That's true. And I also have another question because when you talk about your work in conservation, you talk about communities and livelihoods, there's also a component of conservation that might not be known by a lot of people out there, and especially with the conservation work, sometimes it's isolated from the public itself. Not many know the term that you use. So can you explain for those who are not familiar with the term high conservation value and what the HTV or high conservation value approach entails?

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Well, high conservation values are basically referring to any biological, ecological ecosystems, landscapes, for example, species, and also to social and cultural values that are significant for the local residents but also for humanity. And because of that, they are of critical importance for all of us and should be protected. You could say that the HCV approach is like a lens, and it is a collective lens to look at our surroundings. And whenever we plan on developing land or developing resources or accessing and extracting resources, we ask this question collectively. What in this landscape I want to make sure will continue to be here after I have developed the land, after I have extracted these resources that we think we need for the economic growth of our communities or for the economic growth of a specific sector. So, what is critical? What is significant? What I would not like to be without 10 years from now. And that is what a high conservation value is. These things that surround us, and sometimes we don't really realize how much we rely upon, but which nevertheless, upon a closer look, we realize well, this is outstandingly significant. This is critical for the local communities, for the environment, for the planet, and also for ourselves as a species. Hence we need to protect it, and if possible, we need to make our best to enhance it where it is facing degradation or destruction.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

As you mentioned before, you mentioned FSC certification. Can you explain what it stands for?

SPEAKER_01 5:23

It is the Forest Stewardship Council. I think it's possibly the very first attempt to have a strategy to align markets to conservation, to prove that the market can be a player for protection and conservation and sustainable development and not a driver of destruction. And I think FSE, and it has to be said, FSE came up with the concept of high conservation values, which was to find a way to recognize all of these intrinsically important elements of the landscapes where forest extraction was happening, where plantation forests were being developed. So instead of going to the extreme of, for example, boycotting any kind of use of resources, they tried to ask the question: what if we really need to extract these resources? How do we do it better? And high conservation value was the answer to that question. We have to identify what is critical, what is significant, and we need to protect it. And that was the birth of the concept of high conservation values, well, at the end of the last century, really. So we have been around as a concept for over 25 years now. And the concept has been used within the Forest Stewardship Council certification. And right now, I think it's more than 160 million hectares covered by FSE certification, where all producers have looked at their development areas with the lens of HEVs, trying to ensure that high conservation values are not damaged by forestry.

SPEAKER_00 6:47

From FSC, moving to our spirit certification. So I think there are similarities in terms of certification schemes in protecting forest conservation. Can you explain a little bit on how these certification schemes, like for example, RSPO, how do they strengthen their approach to forest conservation?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

I think the same basis as what the Forest Stewardship Council tried to do was at the beginning of the RSBO as well. As anybody listening to this podcast knows, oil palm had a very bad name for many, many years, and it has been highlighted as a critical activity driving degradation and destruction of forests and the destruction of the livelihoods and the culture of the peoples that rely on those forests worldwide. So there was again the question of is it possible to do it different? And there was the need to do it different because increasingly there was a concern among the market that this is not really going to be acceptable. We cannot continue to pretend that we can carry on with an economy that does not consider any of the environmental and social costs that it entails. So certification emerges as the answer for this. It is voluntary and it is built upon the will of a diverse array of stakeholders, from the private companies that are developing the land to NGOs that want to ensure that this is done correctly and provide the technical tools and insights to help companies to do what they are doing in their business but in a way that is sustainable and credible.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

When working with a group like RSBO with thousands of members, what kind of challenges do you encounter in ensuring conservation gets equal attention as other sustainability components in this specific field, which is the sustainable palm oil sector, where there's a lot of companies, for-profit companies and businesses? So, what kind of challenges do you see when it comes to there's so many issues that is brought forward to ensure sustainability in the practices of production of palm oil itself? So, what are the challenges that you see for conservation to be seen as important as other aspects like livelihood and others?

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Well, I think that the RSPO membership is quite diverse, and the needs of the different sectors of this membership need to be taken into account. And the discussion about conservation and development is going to be different depending on who is the stakeholder involved. I think smallholders are a very important component of the membership. And I think that because of where they are located and how they have made their living historically, they are a very key ally to contribute to conservation. But of course, they would possibly require a lot more support technically and a lot more incentives to help them deliver on their conservation ambition. I think that that ambition is there because high conservation values are even more critical to local communities than they may be to a company. A company may feel comfortable enough with simply setting aside an area and that's it. But for communities, high conservation values are alive and they are part of the day-to-day. So for them, it's not just a matter of setting aside an area and not going there and developing it. It's a matter of ensuring that that area continues to provide the services that the area has provided before, and that each and every person in the community still has access to these benefits. So I think that the first challenge is to consider that there is not one size that fits all. So conservation is going to look different if it is done with communities, and it will look different if it's done strictly by a company with private ownership of the land and no neighbors that they may be impacted or affected or could collaborate in the protection of those values, or a company that has a more mixed scenario where they may have large concessions under their full control, and then multiple areas, for example, as we see in Indonesia of scheme, smallholders working together with them both to achieve the economic development goals, but also to do it with good conservation and ensuring that communities are not affected in what are their rights, but also their needs in the day-to-day for many things, for food, for construction, for health, and the healthy environment they need to strive and to continue with their growth. So, first thing, there isn't one size that fits all when you are talking conservation. And possibly the second big challenge is that we really need to go beyond simply setting aside and expecting that nature is going to continue to thrive when many things in the context are changing. So I think a more proactive approach to conservation of high conservation values and the forests that may be included in them is critical. And I would say also important to recognize that these high conservation values are not only forests, they are also rivers and water courses and many other natural ecosystems, non-forested like grasslands, that are equally important for our biodiversity from a biodiversity perspective, but also from a social perspective because they are play a very important role in the local economies.

SPEAKER_00 11:44

So from the HCV approach that you already mentioned, I believe for this next question you somehow already answered partly, but I think I would like the audience to hear the clarification where does HCV approach mean no deforestation at all? Or is there a way that we can put it in better words?

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Well, the HCV approach is focused on protecting these significant values that may be found in forests, but also they are found in many other non-forest ecosystems. So I would say our approach is about a broader blanket of protection for anything that is significant and outstandingly important from social and environmental perspectives. That doesn't mean that our approach exists in isolation. And I think for the last six years, together with the RSPO, we have successfully integrated the HEV approach with another approach that is called the high carbon stock approach, which has been designed with a focus on ensuring no deforestation, no exploitation, and no conversion of peat. And this is possibly something that I think also is part of the challenge, is that we as an organization, but also our users, we need to understand that the HEV approach does not exist in isolation and it can be integrated with many other tools to ensure the best outcomes, both from an economic and efficiency point of view, but also from the point of view of magnifying impact and ensuring the collaboration that would give it a solid ground to be sustainable in the coming years.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

Okay, so I want you to address one myth or a piece of misinformation because I believe people are really not aware of the efforts that's being done in ensuring the palm oil ecosystem becoming more sustainable that involves the work of conservation behind the scenes. So, can you explain or debunk a myth or misinformation about conservation that you've heard over and over again in the palm oil, sustainable palm oil industry?

SPEAKER_01 13:38

For me, there are at least two myths that are critical to address. One is the belief that you can simply stop producing palm oil. The reality is that any studies have proven this, including a recent study by the UCN. I think that palm oil is by far the more efficient way of satisfying the demand for this type of inputs globally. And this needs to be recognized as any alternatives will have, if not equally, even larger impacts from an environmental and social point of view. And the second thing that has to be challenged is that palm oil production can only be done at expense of the rights of the communities and their lands. The reality is that, and I think that's where certification through the RSPO has become a critical example and a beacon to follow, I would say. Communities can be part of the landscapes where palm oil is being produced. And not only are they part of it, they are actively engaged with it because it is an economic activity that provides a benefit and that allows them to develop, and they can do it right. And companies that are committed to respecting the rights of the communities and to follow the principle and criteria of the RSPO will do it right. And approaches such as the high conservation value approach are a kind of tool that will help them sit together with the communities and agree on what can be developed and what needs to be maintained, protected, and enhanced to ensure that the communities maintain their traditional activities, maintain their culture, maintain what is valuable for them in terms of basic needs, but also cultural, historical, and religious values. So I think these two things are critical because we need to move to the next level in promoting these better practices. So those that today still give a bad name to palm oil find that it is possible to do it differently and not necessarily at a higher cost. I think this is something that we could also talk a bit more about.

SPEAKER_00 15:26

So this somehow putting responsibility on the companies, and this is a great segue for my next question, which we want to talk a bit more on the business side of conservation. And we talk about the basic understanding of HTV already. So for the business side of things, do you think companies see tangible benefits from adopting HCV for members? It can either be members of RSBO, from your own experience, pummel producer, or is it compliance still the main driver for these companies to take up conservation?

SPEAKER_01 16:02

I think that the benefit from using an approach such as the high conservation value approach would depend a lot on how much is being done to actually implement measures to protect HEVs. I can tell you from my past life working more in relation to the Forest Stewardship Council, and particularly I worked for many years in Bolivia as an auditor. And talking to the companies that were operating those natural forests and doing sustainable harvest and applying all of the rules of the Forest Stewardship Council, the conclusion for them was that the measures they have adopted had significantly improved the relationship with the communities and they have allowed to improve their operations, give more stability, avoid conflict that affects operations. But in addition to that, they could also see the tangible change in the conditions of the values that have been identified. And I think this is where the approach provides a very practical tool for companies and stakeholders living in the wider landscape of their developments to agree on what values are there and what can we do to protect them, and how can we verify if our measures are being successful or not. And I think that's where companies would possibly see a greater benefit when there is a proactive effort to sit down together with all stakeholders and with their own teams to proactively protect these HEVs, not simply set aside an area and you know that that alone may not feel like it's impactful and provides a benefit for the company beyond, of course, reducing the risk of the reputational damage if those areas would have been destroyed, or the other benefits that have to do with access to premium markets that require that RSPO certification has been obtained. So I think that for companies at the moment in RSPO, from what I hear, compliance is still the main driver. But those that invest more in effectively implementing the management of HEVs possibly see the greater opportunities. And over time, because this is a very dynamic world, I think that there will be opportunities with technology and with increased access to information to make a more efficient monitoring of HEVs to be able to document the impacts. And once that step is taken, I think that there are many market opportunities to capitalize as well from a financial point of view and the information collected with HEVs. I do not think that the market is ready yet to use directly data from HEV identification alone to be able to inform, for example, a biodiversity credit mechanism. But certainly there is a very good start. And as an HEV network, we are working with our members in trying to find a path to make sure that companies can use the information collected from the HEVs together with other information they have to consider exploring also biodiversity credit markets and try to add a more tangible financial benefit to the good effort they are making in protecting and maintaining HEVs.

SPEAKER_00 18:51

Are there any particular case studies that strikes you that you can say, oh, this is a really good example that we can show how businesses thrive while having HCV as one of their core principles in running businesses?

SPEAKER_01 19:05

I possibly couldn't mention your company specifically, though I know of many members that have quite interesting programs in promoting the management of HEVs, but I don't want to single out anybody, so I don't want to be told, oh, why didn't you mention me? But I would say that the growth and the demand for RSPO certified, the growth and the demand for FSE certified all, and the global interest in doing better development of land and trade, it's a good indication that there is a business case for doing things in line with sustainability principles. That is that is to me the greatest indication. If somebody told me certification is stagnated or declining, then I would say, well, clearly there isn't a business case for doing things better. But it has been a steady growth, and we have gone through pandemics, we have gone through all kinds of conflict and new instability approaches, of course. But so far, I think that globally certification standards using the HV approach has managed to maintain their place in the market, and this space is growing bigger and bigger over time. So I think that RSPO members and all companies committing to certification principles must be doing something better. I mean, must be doing something right.

SPEAKER_00 20:17

Oh, we talk a lot about the positive impact on adhering to HCV principles, right? In this conversation. Because we're talking about case studies, it can be positive and negative. So is there any cases that sticks with you where this company refuses to uphold HCV principles or kind of trampled on the rights of the communities and somehow don't really care about conservation? Like in this in this day and age where we talk a lot about sustainability and all that, do you have an example that you can share with us on how it's actually a losing case for someone to not adhere to conservation and these positive sustainability approaches?

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Well, I think that possibly again I shouldn't be naming names, but I think that if you look, for example, at a system as FSE, there are mechanisms that are created to deal with companies that are not willing to fully abide with the standard and to comply with the commitment they are made. And it has been in the case of FSE that companies that were certified lost certification. And in losing certification, of course, they lost any market they may have based on their certificate and their good performance. The companies as such also, of course, are not just affected by the market. When they breach the law, they are also subject to fines and legal action. And I think there have been several high-profile cases in Indonesia in the last five years where companies have been found to do not follow the law, and you know, and that has had negative consequences on the environment and on the local communities. So I think it is still happening. I think the problem still needs to be addressed. But I do think that what matters is to have an alternative path, and that's Certification is doing for palm oil the same way it did it for logging back in the 70s and 80s when logging of natural forests was basically the lead concern among the public because of the illegality and sustainability, the amount of violations of human rights and individual rights and labor rights. So it was a big problem. But once certification emerged, it showed that it was possible and necessary to do things differently. And I think that is the path that needs to be followed. There will always be non-compliance, and there is a role, of course, for governments and policy and legislation to bring the national performance standard to a place where hopefully as high as what certification may achieve through voluntary mechanisms. But you know, the challenges to high conservation values and in general to forest and all natural ecosystems are huge, and an effort is needed to go beyond individual good performers and make sustainable palm oil the norm if that is possible.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

How do you hope stakeholders in the palm oil industry will leverage this high conservation value approach in supporting the work of conservation or things that is related to HCB? How do you think they will leverage this? How can they leverage it?

SPEAKER_01 23:18

I think one of the key opportunities is to start thinking beyond the individual company scale and look to the landscapes where these companies operate and to the stakeholders that are part of these landscapes, whether it is local communities, other companies, local governments, to try to foster an strategy that builds on the capacity of companies already committed to HEV protection to ensure that the measures to manage and enhance HEVs happen at a landscape level scale. So it's not just the company that is in compliance, but it helps the other stakeholders to move in the same direction. I think that the investments have done by the companies so far in identifying HEVs are a significant starting point. But we shouldn't stop there. HEVs are dynamic too. Five years ago, something that may have been considered a basic need for our community may no longer be, and vice versa. Something that seemed to be abundant, you know, hardly meriting much attention, may become a very scarce resource that may be classified at a later stage as well. This is now critical and it's part of our basic needs, and now we need to focus on protecting it. So I think that companies need to move beyond HEV identification as a compliance requirement and think about how this enables sustainability for us as companies, working with our surrounding social context, with local communities, with local authorities. So we all benefit from these values, from the environmental services that enable many of the productivities the company relies on, and strengthening the network of collaboration with the stakeholders.

SPEAKER_00 24:49

Okay, so going back to the work HCVN does with RSPO, just a short one. HCVN signed a memorandum of understanding with RSPO in November last year. What impact does this partnership have on conservation efforts within the sustainable farm oil industry? What is there to expect after these MOUs sign?

SPEAKER_01 25:10

Well, that's a very good question. And we are just about to have a meeting with the RSPO secretariat next week to discuss in more detail how do we want to use this memorandum of understanding to take RSPO use of the HB approach to the next level. And I think a lot of what we have discussed has to do with this ambition. We need to agree on how we do it, when we do it, and what is the role the many participants in the RSPO play, companies, you know, buyers, downstream, NGOs, smallholders. But I think that for us, a key priority in the years to come, and we would like to foster this through the understanding, is about effective management and monitoring of HEVs, about taking action and then measuring the impact that I RSPO is achieving through the protection of HEVs. The second thing, of course, is about ensuring that the capacity and the tool is there for those who need it most so they can actually deliver in their commitment to protect and enhance HEVs. And we're thinking capacity building with the smallholders, but also with companies, because at the end of the day, a company is a business. They are not biology experts or academic entities. So they need to be supported as well to do it better and to do it efficiently. And also, as I said earlier, I think that we also need to have a closer look at how to increase efficiencies in the protection of HEVs, but also create enabling conditions for conservation at a meaningful scale. And I think that takes us to the discussion of landscapes, jurisdictional level management of HEVs. So it's still a conversation we are to have with the Secretariat. You guys have been very busy following the PNC update. So we understand that things still have to settle down a bit. So we have let this conversation uh wait a bit, but we are looking forward to the opportunities to further collaborate. And of course, the last one that I shouldn't forget is we're very excited with Prisma and what it could offer in terms of documenting impact and protection of HEV. So we would like to have a good conversation with the secretariat team to understand better how HEV data can be shared, how it can be monitored, how it can be used to increase transparency and credibility, and also to showcase the good effort that RSPU members on the ground are doing to meet the ambition of sustainable development in the palm oil industry.

SPEAKER_00 27:27

I believe that's a great way to kind of see what the future holds, and I believe there's gonna be a lot more great work on HCV that will be done in RSPO and also among the members. But I want to touch on one segment. I believe we don't really talk much about these, but I think at the same time there's a lot of misinformation and myth also surrounding these, which is the conversation about palm oil being bad. And this conversation always is heard amongst the consumers, right? And I believe after our conversation today, there's a lot of points or information from you with Ruth that somehow debunk a lot of this misinformation. And aside from that, how can we communicate with consumers or how can consumers themselves actively participate in supporting sustainable palm oil and the efforts of high conservation value?

SPEAKER_01 28:20

Well, very good question. The future sometimes may look darker, but I do think that collective effort is critical for change and improving the way development has been happening in our planet. I think that the very first thing that as individuals we need to know is that every decision matters and that the threats to conservation and threats to conservation values and to sustainability are not just happening far away, down in the south in the tropical forests. These threats start from home for those of us who are based here in the north. Policies matter. So I think individuals need to be aware of the significant impact of the boat and their choices and the policies that those choices enable in terms of the relation of the markets, the producing countries. Are our boats contributing to sustainability or are our boats enabling an exploitative use of resources impactful for local communities and indigenous peoples in other places of the world, far away from us? So I would say, first of all, there is that dimension. And of course, secondly, as a consumer, we are also part of the problem. And I always think, for me personally, a big challenge is first of all to reduce consumption. I know that people think so, but that's not good business. And I think it is because it is our survival in this planet that is at stake. It's a bit short-sighted to just think about short-term, short-term satisfaction. So I think we should buy better. And buying better means buying products that do not cause a significant negative impact on the planet we live in. So for me, it's about choices. You choose the policies you support, and you choose with your money to either enable better ways of producing those goods we need all over the world or not. So I would say that's that's a second step. And of course, we also have to be critical with what we see and we have to encourage transparency. These days have become a bit complex. I belong to the generation that existed when there was no internet, believe it or not. And another time we all thought, oh, when the internet emerged, there is so much potential, but now we're learning also that there is a lot of challenge. So I think we have to be critical with what we see and what we hear on the internet. We have to do our work, our homework, and research what people say, the statements that are made about what is good and what is bad and what is better, and try to make informed decisions. But above all, I think we also need to demand greater transparency. We need to require governments to be clear about the kind of development they are enabling, supporting, and even promoting. And we also have to ask companies to be equally transparent about the way they conduct their business. Are their businesses good for the planet, good for the people that live in the areas where they operate or where they buy from? So I think it sounds like a bit of work for a consumer, but I think it's part of their responsibility of being citizens in this global world.

SPEAKER_00 31:13

I truly agree with you, Ruth, and I believe a lot of today's key takeaway is that the high conservation value or HCV approach embodies harmony in going beyond just forest and wildlife conservation to include the thriving of communities. And by focusing on areas of high environmental, social, and cultural value, HCV encourages businesses to take responsibility for conservation in a way that benefits both the planet and the people who depend on it. And this approach isn't just about mitigating risk, it's also a strategic advantage that fosters long-term environmental, economic, and social resilience. Companies that enrich SCV align their success with sustainability, ensuring that their operations contribute positively to the environment and the communities they engage with. To truly drive this shift, businesses must move beyond mere compliance and actively invest in conservation initiatives, creating value for both nature and society. And also, consumer plays a pivotal role in this transformation by recognizing these efforts and demanding stronger and more sustainable practices from the businesses they support. And this is how sustainability is achieved through the integration of environmental responsibility, community well-being, and business success. Thank you for your time, Ruth. This conversation has been incredibly insightful, and I'm feeling really, really hopeful about the future of conservation.

SPEAKER_01 32:33

Thank you very much, Farah, and I hope there are many, many more palm pots to come.

SPEAKER_00 32:38

Thank you. I was speaking to our guest, Ruth Silva from High Conservation Value Network, HTV Network. I am Fararome, and this is the palm pot.