Episode 9 - From Jungle to Standards: Taking Conservation Beyond the Forest

Behind every sustainability success story are individuals working tirelessly to uphold regulations and standards. And behind every conservation effort are those who spend countless hours studying wildlife, monitoring habitats, and facing the real dangers of conservation work—far beyond the  discussions at COP meetings.

We often advocate for environmental protection, but how often do we hear from those doing the work? The ones turning words into action?

Hosted by Fara Rom, this episode features Akmal Razali, Manager of Standards and Sustainability (Forest) at RSPO — a passionate conservationist with no shortage of life-changing experiences. He shares what fuels his deep commitment to conservation and what it truly takes to ensure this critical work continues.

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Related Link(s):

Who Pays for Conservation?” by Akmal Razali: https://rspo.org/who-pays-for-conservation/

Learn more about sustainable palm oil at www.rspo.org.

*The views and opinions expressed on The Palm Pod are solely those of the speaker and do not necessarily reflect those of The Palm Pod or the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil (RSPO).

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

You are now listening to the palm pod, brought to you by RSPO, a global partnership to make palm oil sustainable. Hi, I'm Farum, and you're tuning into the Palm Pod where we host engaging discussions, expert insights, and industry updates on sustainable palm oil, guiding consumers and businesses to make better choices for the planet. When we talk about forests, conservation always comes up, protecting wildlife, natural habitats, and everything in between. Of course, there's a big push to save these precious ecosystems, but how many of us actually understand what it takes or who's doing the work behind the scenes? Well, today we're lucky to have someone who's been in the thick of it, tracking tigers, navigating through rough terrains, and now working on conservation within the world of sustainable palm oil. Let's welcome Akman Razali, the manager of Standards and Sustainability Forest to the Palm Pot. Welcome Akmal.

SPEAKER_00 1:00

Hey Farah, thank you for having me here.

SPEAKER_01 1:02

Thank you so much for your time. If you had to sum up who Akman Razali is in just three sentences, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:10

Oh, that's uh that's a good question. I think I'm an overthinker, uh walking contradiction, and someone who just wants to make sense of the things he finds interesting. Uh, I didn't come from much, but I've always followed what felt right, even if it didn't make sense to others. Somehow that path led me through forests, into policy rooms, and onto questions that I think still keep me curious uh all this time.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

So now we know you a little bit better. We can dive into your experience and in the spirit of Forest Day. Could you share why forests are such an important component of RSBO to the point that they even highlighted it in your job title?

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Um, thanks for the question, Farah. I think I like to uh try and explain it just like I explained it to my mom. Uh, because I think if she can understand uh what I'm doing uh for a job, I think uh the bigger audience might be able to benefit from the same thing. So when it comes to RSPO, we're talking about the sustainable production of uh palm oil in an industry that has been there for quite some time, and we know for a fact that uh historically speaking, we have seen destruction of forests uh and the biodiversity that uh is inside the forest. So when it comes to RSPO per se, we would want to ensure that any activities related to the sustainable production of palm oil doesn't destroy the environment, doesn't destroy the forest and the biodiversity that's inside of it. So when we look into um certification and also how we get our members to be part of the RSPO system, we would want to do a bit of due diligence and the required assessments to make sure that the oil that is produced by our members doesn't cause any damage to the environment and also to the values that uh the forest and biodiversity provide to uh us, the people, uh who especially the ones who are living uh nearby the production area. So I guess this is why my role was created uh in the first place. Uh, but also when we look into um the standards itself, we have three pillars right now: the people, pillar, uh, planet, and also um prosperity. When we look into these things, they are essentially interconnected. And my role here is to kind of like make sense of how this kind of approach, as far as certification uh and voluntary certification is uh concerned, how they react and work together so that we can have a better um framework within the industry.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

That's a really great explanation. Uh and now I actually understand your role in RSPO a bit better. Um, I think reading your article that you written recently in RSPO Voices, which the title is Who Pays for Conservation? I will definitely link this uh article in the podcast description. I highly recommend the audience to read it because it's it's really such an interesting article where you somehow talk about your own experience from tracking tigers to working on sustainability standards. My question for you is how did that happen exactly and what led you down this unexpected path?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

Well, it wasn't it was never a straight line, I would say. I started out doing field work with tiger conservation, which gave me a deep appreciation of nature and the realities on the ground. And over time I realized that protecting forests and wildlife at scale, we need a system to approach it. Um so I moved towards standards and policies to try and uh influence the bigger picture. Um, just a bit of a background from my side. I was a city boy. I mean, I am still a city boy. Uh I've never been in a primary forest my whole life until the point uh where I started my first job uh in Trunganu, Malaysia. So I have always been used to the forest that we see along the highways, the secondary forests, and I've always thought those are our primary forests, and it looks very daunting for me to, as a person, to go in. But when I got into the actual primary forest during my first job, that was an eye-opening experience. And I've always wanted to understand what I can do within the very limited capacity that I had at that point in time. So as I was going through the process of understanding the work, understanding the environment, and also understanding the dynamics of things when it comes to how forests can be protected, that led me to come to this different, somewhat different path of uh career, uh if I can put it that way, um, to look into the bigger picture and how agricultural production uh and the frameworks that are around that uh anchor point can help uh the forest. Because when I was doing um tiger conservation, in my head, to put it in a very simple manner, I've always wings to do to go fast. Like I want tigers to be protected now, now, now, but at the same time, um, that is obviously not the way to go, and there are multiple other avenues of which influence can be um put on, and um we can do things in a different way. So, this is my take on the quote-unquote career switch, I would say.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

That is an important point that you made about how expectations differ, and also how conservation work actually has different angles and not just a particular one where okay, we want something to change now, but what does that entail, right? So um, I actually had a question. I think it would be beneficial for our audience to know this as well. You mentioned primary and secondary forests. Can you explain a little bit further what does that mean for a normal person like myself?

SPEAKER_00 8:04

Sure, I think that is one question that I asked myself. Um, one of the first questions that I asked myself, because when I was in university, um, it's always the resources that we know about forests is always on um textbooks and the lecture halls um that we have experienced as students. But when we talk about primary forest, especially in the context of Malaysia, um we're talking about the OG, the original rainforest, uh, that the kind that has been standing for thousands of years. So when we look at um primary forest, we look at it, at least from my point of view, uh, with a different set of views. You get to see uh um different species that are very diverse inside the forest. Umagine waking up to the sounds of cicadas in the morning, and that um something that we don't see every day. But from a scientific point of view, uh, I try to kind of like um make it into something simple. When we look at primary forest, um, we are looking at big trees, and these big trees they have multiple layers of canopy uh which spans over uh a huge area, and what that means is that sunlight doesn't penetrate all the way to the ground, so as a result, you don't see a lot of undergrowth or uh shrubs uh a lot in primary forest. There are well-beaten paths uh due to animals like elephants or wild boars. Um, there are um a lot of different streams that are flowing from one end to the other that are very pristine. And obviously, every day when I was in the forest, that is where I would uh clean myself and uh we use the water for drinking and for food. So these kind of um uh differences that we see in the primary forest is something that gives you the kind of sensation that hey, you're in a different place to a certain extent. But contrastly, if you look at a secondary forest, secondary forests mostly are locked over forests. That means deforestation or um tree uh extraction has happened in the past. So, with the absence of these big trees and you don't have um canopies uh on top of the higher level of the forest, you get a lot of uh land clearance and the soil is no longer uh intact, for example. So when you leave these kind of areas over the span of a couple of years, you would see a lot of undergrowth, a lot of shrubs, a lot of um species that are uh that thrive in this kind of situation, um, something that you don't see in a primary forest. So I guess that is the biggest difference when you see um primary forests and secondary forests, at least in the context of Malaysia. So coming back to the story of which I was a kid, and you know, I thought the quote unquote forest that we saw that all that we see along the highways, those are wrong assumptions from my end, I would say. But once you get into the primary forest and you see the different vegetations and also different features that it can offer, I tell you, Farah, that's a it's next level um experience from my end, I would think. And I'm pretty sure you would have experienced that as well, as and when you go hiking through national parks or something. So yeah, it's very amazing.

SPEAKER_01 11:57

That's really, really interesting to hear. I think probably this weekend I might go hiking and see some of the forests that you mentioned. Um, looking at your experience in the uh tiger conservation, we will go towards RSPO a bit later in the conversation, but I'm interested in uh wanting to know that what is the most unforgettable moments or some of the unforgettable moments that you had on the ground when you were working in the forests on tiger conservation?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I think there's a few moments that I still keep uh at the back of my head every time I think about this topic. I guess the first one would be my near-death experience. Um, there was one day that we were tracking and we lost track of time. Uh, we couldn't go back to our base camp at that point. Uh, so we had to um go around in the dark trying to um get a bamboo raft ready so that we can use the stream instead of tracking back to our base camp. But that took longer than we expected. We ended up sleeping by the riverbank throughout that night. Uh and when we were trying to get back to our base camp the next morning, we were hit by a watershed. In Malaysia, uh, the common terminology for that was kapala aye, if I'm not mistaken. So when that happened, um our raft broke into pieces and I almost drowned. I didn't know how to swim. I know it's a given that if you want to work in the forest, you would want to be able to know how to swim, but at that point I didn't know how to swim. But miraculously, I had my dry back attached to my body, so that kept me afloat. So that was um for me quite exhilarating because I almost died. That's one thing. But at the same time, I guess that is one thing that uh stayed with me uh throughout the years, because everything around that experience shows that you need to prepare, plan, and be disciplined when you are out there on the ground so that you avoid unnecessary risks like that. Uh, the the other one would be the the number of leeches that I had on my body. Because when I when I was inside the forest, initially I didn't really care so much about how I dress in the forest because, well, we're in the forest, nobody is looking at us. But as time goes by and um I learn from my uh friends and mentors who are on the ground, you have to dress a certain way, you have to tuck in your shirts, you have to wear your socks a certain way so that you wouldn't get a lot of leeches uh by the end of the day. Um, my record for now is 24 leeches on my legs and arms. But I know a few other people, some of my mentors have more than that. But yeah, 24 was a group.

SPEAKER_01 15:09

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_00 15:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:12

And is this conservation a passion of yours when you were little, or is this something that comes a little later in your life?

SPEAKER_00 15:23

I would definitely say that uh it came much later in my life because um I grew up with um a family who uh my family members, most of them, they are in uh either insurance, banking, or commerce. Uh, none of them uh did science back in the days. So I I didn't really uh had that passion uh for the lack of better term for conservation uh when I was a kid, but when I was in university, I was exposed with fieldwork for the first time. That's when I had to go uh into the field, talk to people, talk to locals, and I find that more interesting rather than being in a lab because I know for I cannot trust myself to uh do things on my own. So I need that kind of visual exposure, experiential learning curve that uh would help me understand things better. And I've always liked cats, yeah, although ironically I'm allergic to cats, uh, but big cats in particular. Um, so when I was exposed with that uh fieldwork experience in uh university, I wanted to uh do something with my piece of degree that I've gotten. So that's when I started um you know sending out applications for volunteer uh stints, um, whoever that was available. And luckily I found an organization uh who uh eventually hired me, uh Rimba. So this organization had given me a lot of opportunities to learn and essentially take the next step outside of the classroom um as opposed to what I've experienced during uh my university time. So I guess um when I look into uh big cats, I've always loved the documentaries on um big cats, uh especially uh tigers and leopards. But when I was growing up, there's not a lot of exposure towards Malaysian big cats. So I've always wanted to try and see whether I can make something I can contribute into um saving these big cats. So that's why I started my uh career journey for the lack of better term.

SPEAKER_01 17:45

That's a really inspiring story. Um so at one point you transitioned out of that direct fieldwork, and it's basically from the jungle to the office space. What made you switch your careers? Was it a case of it's time? It's time that you're done with uh hiking uh and all the rough terrains and you want to hang up the jungle boots for something less rugged, or was there a bigger reason behind your move?

SPEAKER_00 18:16

This is going to sound weird, but um, when I was in Pringanu, um when we drive back to KL or when we fly back to KL, every time I see KLCC, it makes me feel at home and at peace. But that's not the that is not the reason why I wanted to transition to a different career path. I've always wanted to see how we can affect conservation from a different angle. I've always thought that um when we look into conservation, it can be something towards the extreme, as in like you have to protect this uh particular thing that you want to conserve at all costs. But in reality, there's a lot of other avenues that we need to consider. For example, financing, who pays for it? Um, the other thing, how does uh different act how do different actors uh contribute to the same goal that you're doing? Because obviously you've tried doing uh things on your own, and you know, things won't be as productive as opposed to when you work together with different players. So this is one of the reasons why I transitioned uh to the role uh in RSBO because I started um before before the uh role in RSBO, I started learning uh the ropes of uh the palm oil industry in my previous um uh position in Earthworm Foundation. So that's when I first got my taste of what the industry is uh like. So when I transitioned to um RSPO, the main purpose is to understand how do standards work in this kind of objective. Uh, because when we look into it uh in a more detailed manner, it's very different, but at the same time, there are a lot of overlapping um elements that can help towards conservation and protecting this uh biodiversity aspect of it. So I am still far away from understanding the whole picture, but I guess this is where I am today.

SPEAKER_01 20:37

So you've explained somehow your role and also the role of RSPO standards uh that supports forest protection. How do you connect your background um in conservation in your previous careers with the work that you're doing now? Is there anything that actually helped from the journey that you had? And does that support your work in your position now? Because on the surface, it's it somehow is a completely different world. But um, have you found any surprising overlaps between those two?

SPEAKER_00 21:13

Oh, yeah, definitely. Um, so when we look at standards per se, especially when it comes to the voluntary standards such as RSBO, we are looking at the production side. Um, and we are looking to have the production being done with minimal or zero impact to the environment and in this context of forest and biodiversity. So, one thing that I learned uh so far is that when it comes to standards, and we have just uh completed our standards revision last year, and the standards were endorsed uh in November. A lot of the work that would lead to the endorsement uh involves a lot of communication, involves a lot of negotiation. With the players who are eventually the ones who, you know, make the decision whether or not the standards can be endorsed. So when we do look into forest protection, for example, we need to be able to communicate it in a clear and implementable way. Because by the end of the day, we are looking at our members who are doing this on the ground. If it's not implementable, if it's vague, and if it's complicated, too overly complicated, then you know the standards won't work. So one of the things that I also learned throughout this uh revision journey is that when you have thought about the system well, communicating it makes it uh way better if you do it right. Because by the end of the day, you would want all your stakeholders to be able to understand oh, this is what we want to do, this is how we want to do it, and eventually the biggest thing of all would be why we do it. Because by the end of the day, when we look at um uh sustainable standards like ours, they're looking at balancing between the development and the conservation side, and to a certain extent there will be uh losers and winners, but that is the middle ground that we are fighting for or we are discussing. So I guess the communication part is very important, just like what we are doing now. 10 years ago, we didn't have any podcast to talk about the realities on the ground and what kind of challenges that we are facing. So I guess this is a good approach.

SPEAKER_01 23:42

So I believe you also come across or you've observed certain gaps, right? When you're working in conservation and now you're working um in RSPO, uh, what are some of the gaps or blind spots in conservation efforts that weren't as obvious to you before where you are on the ground? And based on your observations, what kind of solutions do you think are urgently needed to make conservation efforts more effective and more comprehensive?

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I think it's important to um understand the delineation or the line that we have between um conservation work in general and sustainability in general, because they do overlap to a certain extent. But if we look at uh the RSPO standards, for example, we are looking at a production standard. Uh we are looking at whether or not um the production of palm oil uh affects the environment, the forest, and also the biodiversity. Conservation work, on the other hand, let's say if we take um tiger conservation as an example, we are looking at an area with tigers, of course, uh, and an area which uh sometimes might not even overlap with the production side of um palm oil. So that is the fundamental uh delineation that I would personally make so that um I can get better clarity over the work that I'm doing. So um when it comes to gaps, right, I think one good example that I can use is actually the management and monitoring of uh conservation areas within uh the concessions of our members. I think before this, we when we look at the evolution of uh environmental requirements inside the RSPO standards, it has evolved over time. We started in 2013, if I'm not mistaken, we had um HCV, or maybe even before that, we have HCV requirements, the high conservation value requirements. And in 2018, we had uh incorporated the high carbon stock element of it. So when we look into this, um there is a need for our members to manage it well. Um, and we need to understand whether or not the standards would have any impact on conserving and managing this uh conservation area. So, one of the things that we have achieved during the last revision process is that we had one particular indicator on management and monitoring uh inside principle 7, which essentially requires our members to look after the areas, the conservation areas that they have identified at the very beginning before they even get certified, so that at least we know the management and well the conservation efforts doesn't just stop at the assessment uh point. So when these kind of requirements are included inside our uh standards, I feel like that's a huge gap that we have closed. But I know that uh there's a lot more work for us to do in terms of um making it implementable, making it uh impactful on the ground. So, in terms of gaps, I guess this is something that I could use as a as an example for Navara.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

So, looking at conservation, um, I think we can say that there are several different segments of the society that is responsible to ensure that conservation practices or we are protecting our ecosystem good enough, and I feel like everyone has a role to play. So I want to know your opinion. If you had the ability to influence these three key groups, which is the public, the stakeholders, and decision makers, what actions would you want them to take in order to drive global sustainability and ensure the success of conservation efforts? What can be done by these three groups that say will fill in the gaps that you mentioned or the gaps that is there in the conservation work now?

SPEAKER_00 28:17

From the public, I guess the demand side of things would be very crucial. Because uh, if we zoom in uh in the context of uh sustainable palm oil, I guess um having that voice from the public to demand more of these things and having that translated into the market, I guess that opens up a discussion on how the market trends can move and shift uh towards a more sustainable practice. I guess that one is a given. From a decision maker point of view, I guess it's more on the management side of things, um, on a different level, obviously. So when we look at uh company level, we have seen a lot of our members uh spearhead the efforts in terms of making decisions in getting their concessions certified, in uh reporting all the necessary requirements properly. I guess that's a good um uh sample or a good example to begin with. But the more important thing is that having that having these decision makers, especially on a uh top management level, having this done um would also influence the other um operators or supply chain players out there because that domino effect would really help the cost. Um, and especially when it you see big players uh taking efforts in doing this, I guess a lot of uh the other players would also follow, which is something that would benefit the whole uh ecosystem. Uh, the other one, which uh group are we talking about again? I'm sorry.

SPEAKER_01 30:03

So it's the public stakeholders and decision makers. I think stakeholders are somewhat similar with decision makers, but maybe another group of people that um not the growers, but mostly governments and yeah, basically people in power.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Okay, that's an interesting take. Uh, because I think uh one of the things that we that I have um seen so far or observed is on the policy side of things, because when we look at um EUDR, for example, I think uh this kind of move um is in a way good that uh because it opens up a lot of um digital digitalization of data and transparency, when we look at this kind of approach, I feel like when it comes from the policy, um, a lot of um actions can be cascaded uh downwards, uh, which helps the whole um ecosystem of the industry as well. Because uh when we look into um how uh certain regulations are being tailored, these are made with considerations of stakeholders, of the implementers. So they they would know what will work, what will not work, and what is feasible at this point in time. But obviously, policy alone is not enough, uh, and it is ever-changing as we go uh through different experiences within the industry. So I guess with the actions of these three main groups, I guess uh in a way, if I could just like summarize it. Number one, uh shifting the market trends by the public, that one would be very helpful. From the stakeholders, I guess this is where we need them to make sure that whatever that we put as a policy or as a standard, if you look at it from our context, is implementable. And the last one on the decision makers uh is to set a precedence on um the good things that we are doing, and hopefully it will cascade down to the other players as well.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

I think that's a great way to close our conversation today. It's it's there's action that can be done, and it's clear that conservation efforts takes a village to fulfill. Um, and you've talked about um some of your experience from the field of target conservation and also your current role at RSPO and how these efforts actually intertwine, and many people are involved in making sure that we are growing sustainably, not just as an organization, not just in the market, it's globally we want to have sustainable development uh moving forward, right? So thank you so much for your insights and um thank you so much for uh your time at the PomPod. Um, I think just to emphasize again, um we will be sharing the link to your write-up because I feel like people should should read about your thoughts on hoopies for conservation. Thank you so much, Akmal, for your time.

SPEAKER_00 33:23

Thank you for having me. I wouldn't be here without the the help of uh yourself, Ara, and all the other organizations and friends who have helped me along the way and who have kept me safe in the forest, if not worse. So, yeah, I am really appreciative of the effort and uh I'm glad to help.

SPEAKER_01 33:44

Thank you, and don't forget to rate, review, and subscribe to the palm pot on your favorite podcasting platforms, and feel free to share your feedback for our next episode. I was speaking to our guest, Akmal Razali, the manager of Standards and Sustainability Forest RSPO. I am Farrarong, and this is the Palm Potter.