When good dogs go bad.

Ever found yourself navigating the chaotic yet rewarding world of pet ownership? 
David and I reminisce about a lively evening at the Beach Eatery in Curl Curl, where a simple dog walk turned into a comedy of errors. From anthropomorphism to motivational reasoning, we dissect the quirky ways we justify our actions, both with pets and in personal relationships. We chat about how women can navigate the murky waters of manipulative behaviors and inspired by modern anthems like Dua Lipa's "New Rules," we champion the power of setting boundaries. Let's reshape the narrative, focusing on empowerment and critical thinking, inviting you to join our vibrant community of informed decision-makers.

Meet with Annie - https://go.oncehub.com/AnnieMcCubbin

Why Smart Women YouTube - https://www.youtube.com/@WhySmartWomen

Transcript

Smart Women Making Better Decisions

Speaker 1 0:01

One don't pick up the phone. You know he's only calling when he's drunk and alone. Two don't let him in. You'll have to kick him out again. Three don't be his friend. You know you're going to wake up in his bed in the morning.

Speaker 2 0:14

You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome to episode 21 of why Smart Women.

Speaker 2 1:18

The sound you can hear in the background is the rolling of the surf, because we are still at Curl Curl staying at my friend Gail's house while we wait to move into our new apartment, and the other sound that you may hear intermittently is the dogs tap, tap, tapping on the floor and, of course, potentially barking. So I was just reading an article which said that, in terms of dogs' behavior, there's only 0.08% of canines that actually have no behavioral issues. So that makes me feel much better about my own Groodles. So we all know that life imitates art. So strap in and listen to chapter one of my second book why Smart Women Buy the Lies, and we'll talk at the end. Enjoy, bye, chapter one. You should have taken the rag doll, chapter 1.

Speaker 3 2:26

You should have taken the rag doll, porridge, come on, come here. Porridge, come on, come on, who's a good boy?

Speaker 2 2:34

You've been calling for an hour. He's not a good boy, he's a bad boy, a very bad boy.

Speaker 4 2:41

He's got a real personality said Miriam on the phone.

Speaker 2 2:46

Personality in dogs, as we all know, is code for maniac tendencies. That should have been the first red flag.

Speaker 4 2:54

We're sorry to see him go, but Doug's hip's gone. We're just keeping the ragdoll cat.

Speaker 2 3:01

You bet they're keeping the ragdoll. You bet the ragdoll comes back when it's called and doesn't chew all available pieces of soft furnishing. I have a cat, you'd said.

Speaker 4 3:10

Porridge loves cats.

Speaker 3 3:12

I live in a flat and have elderly neighbours. Is he obedient?

Speaker 4 3:15

Oh yes, we got him in the first place to be an assistance dog Doug's. Real sad to see him go Liar.

Speaker 2 3:24

Doug must have clapped his hands when Porridge was loaded into the pet transport van. He must have cracked open a tinny and danced around the vacant spot where Porridge's dog bed had been. What did he assist with?

Speaker 4 3:37

Ah, you know this, and that Does he bark much, only if he thinks you're in danger.

Speaker 2 3:43

He's very protective he bark much, only if he thinks you're in danger. He's very protective. You must always be under extreme threat from unknown assailants, because Porridge barks constantly.

Speaker 3 3:51

He might need some Xanax.

Speaker 2 3:54

Penny, the tiny vet with the tiny high voice, had said Xanax. What is he? A 30-something advertising exec with a hot social life, are you?

Speaker 3 4:04

anxious Porridge.

Speaker 2 4:06

Penny had cooed at him. Porridge had put his sizeable paw into Penny's tiny hand and looked at her with large, doleful eyes. He's a good boy at the vet aren't you. Porridge, she'd said, tipping a liver treat into his mouth. Do you use?

Speaker 3 4:22

treats when you do behavioural training. Yes, I go through about a kilo a day. We have a dog behaviouralist, I can refer him. You want porridge to go to a dog shrink? Well, no, it's your decision, kat. Okay, I'm good. Thanks, I'll take the Xanax. No, you can't take the Xanax. No, I'll take the Xanax for porridge, though now you mention it, what would happen if I did take the Xanax? Penny's lips had compressed. It's okay, I'm just joking. Though, what if the cat's having a rough night, penny?

Speaker 2 4:56

had sent you out with the Xanax after you pledged not to give it to the cat and the name of the dog shrink. Should you change your mind, you'd hide the Xanax next to you on the seat as you'd driven home Back in the park. You stamp your feet pointlessly.

Speaker 3 5:09

Porridge, porridge, come on.

Speaker 2 5:13

It starts to rain, you try your stern voice. Porridge, you yell.

Speaker 3 5:17

Come here immediately.

Speaker 2 5:19

The breeze picks up as the sun goes down. The temperature plummets, the park is emptying, people sensibly load their pets into their warm vehicles and head home. You turn around and walk in the other direction.

Speaker 3 5:32

Horridge, come on, boy who wants a treat?

Speaker 2 5:35

A woman walks towards you, preceded by a pink raincoat on a lead. Upon closer examination, the raincoat houses a small, neat Pomeranian cross. You lost your fur baby, she says you find the term fur baby intensely irritating.

Speaker 3 5:52

Yes you say have you seen a large groodle Um? Have we seen a groodle Trixie?

Speaker 2 5:59

The neat Pomeranian sits at her feet. Its paws are placed perfectly in second position. Why did you get fixated on grudels? Why didn't you adopt a small dog, a dog like Trixie with her ballet paws? The rain thickens. You're dressed in shorts and a t-shirt because you were only dropping into the park for 15 minutes and it was sunny when you arrived. It's now 12 degrees and you've been here for an hour and a half.

Speaker 3 6:26

What colour is your groodle? Like beige caramel. What's his name? Porridge.

Speaker 2 6:31

Oh, she says you prepare to launch into the disclaimer that you didn't name him, but it's now raining heavily and you shut your mouth. So is it because of his colour? You have no idea why Miriam named him Porridge.

Speaker 3 6:45

How long will it take him to get used to me?

Speaker 4 6:49

Not long. He's a very well-adjusted, loving family dog. He just might be a bit nervy when he first arrives.

Speaker 2 6:58

A bit nervy. The things that unnerve Porridge include plastic bags, men buckets, his food bowl, cats, hats, sunglasses, your slippers, the lettuce spinner and the car, specifically the back seat of the car. You have to physically lever him into the front seat where he sits with one paw in contact with your leg at all times. Things that don't unnerve him include roaming over the hills like Julie Andrews.

Speaker 3 7:23

Well, we'll keep an eye out for porridge, won't we, Trixie? There's nothing worse than not being able to find our fur babies.

Speaker 2 7:29

They trot past you, the woman safely ensconced inside her hooded raincoat. You briefly entertain the notion of going home, leaving porridge to his own devices. He could catch his own fish from the park pond and eat wild berries like an episode of Alone. Then you realise he can barely manage to eat from his own bowl, let alone catch his own prey. It's now dark. You're drenched. The park lights flicker on. You're standing disconsolately on the path when, through the wet gloom, a lone caramel figure approaches, you squint your eyes. It looks like a grudel shape. Porridge, you call.

Speaker 3 8:07

Come on, boy, who's a good boy?

Speaker 2 8:10

It is porridge and he is overjoyed to see you. He bounds towards you. He is sopping, wet and filthy. He has something disgusting in his mouth. You want to smack him, but having read a small amount of dog training literature, you have been led to believe that this will dissuade him from returning in the future. Instead, you are meant to praise him for his obedience. Well, you're sorry, but that's a bridge too far.

Speaker 2 8:37

The best you can manage is to clip his lead on and say Come on, and you're not sitting in the front seat Three minutes later, this threat has turned into a Mexican standoff, with you standing at the open back door pointing at the seat and him lying down on the ground. Trixie's owner stops her car next to you and briefly observes the tableau.

Speaker 4 8:54

Your fur baby is found she says Trixie and I are so pleased.

Speaker 2 8:59

She drives off with a little wave in her pleasantly warm car, Trixie, looking smugly out the back window. Lightning and thunder have now commenced. Horridge is lying in an ever-deepening puddle Looking around him like he's at the hardware store looking for the right sort of stainless steel cement nails. You drag him to the back seat.

Speaker 3 9:19

You're not getting your own way today, buddy.

Speaker 2 9:21

You're so wet that your hair is stuck to your head and you're having trouble seeing because the rain is sleeting into your eyes. You put his paws on the seat and leave his back half into the car. He looks back at you aghast and immediately climbs into the front, leaning heavily on the door and looking studiously out the window. You climb into the driver's seat and lean over into the back to find an old dog towel to dry off your hair. You start the engine and, in the privacy of your own car, you give him both barrels.

Speaker 3 9:53

Right, you can look out the window as much as you like, but nothing will change the fact that you're a bad dog, a bad, bad dog. Not only are you bad, but you're also a coward. What other dog is afraid of plastic bags and letter spinners? Honestly, it's tragic. Also, susan doesn't like you. The rag dog cat may have tolerated you, but Susan is a discerning cat and she's not keen. He continues to gaze fixedly out the window. I'm giving you back to Miriam he side-eyes you.

Speaker 2 10:24

The threat of returning him to Miriam may have hit home. You adopt a conciliatory tone.

Speaker 3 10:29

I'm sorry, porridge, next time, if you could come when I call you, that would be optimal.

Speaker 2 10:35

He puts his paw on your leg. By the time you get home, you have patted his ears and promised him dinner. This is why the idea of having children bothers you. You're a total pushover. They'd be roaming all over the park at night and you'd be standing in the rain calling helplessly into the dark. Okay, so I'm here in the studio with David. Hello, hello, did you enjoy?

Speaker 1 11:04

that, David, that chapter in the studio with.

Speaker 2 11:05

David, hello, hello. Did you enjoy that, david, that chapter?

Speaker 1 11:09

Oh, I do. It's just so accessible. I feel like we've been in that situation many times, many, many times. Yes, and we can learn from it. You know, knowing the dogs can do that. We can learn from it and make sure that we never put ourselves in that situation again.

Speaker 2 11:24

Yeah, Because it's so frustrating. It's so frustrating and here's the thing about learning from it is that, well, me in particular, and you as well to some degree, have not learned from it. Because you would think that, having had, you know, a resplendent amount of experience with recalcitrant dogs, and even writing about it because it was so close to my heart, you would think, wouldn't you, that I would have learnt the lesson that dogs are naughty and unpredictable, and unpredictable, although Harry tells me, when we went to Brisbane last week and he had Roto Roto that's a combination of Ryder and Yo-Yo when he had Ryder, and Yo-Yo they were apparently perfectly behaved, okay, which is really irritating, is that true Harry?

Speaker 2 12:15

Yeah, he's nodding. They were perfectly behaved. Any barking, running away, naughtiness, just perfect behavior. Yeah, it's really irritating, anyway.

Speaker 1 12:24

So I was going to remind you of what happened when we had dinner with our friend, with lynn, on saturday night a moment when you know, possibly because of the um, the high chance that dogs are going to be dogs, that we would take precautions and make sure that their behavior, you know? Do you think our dogs fall in the, uh, the 0.8 percent or the? 0.08 the point 0.08.

Speaker 2 12:49

Yeah point of well-behaved dogs so 99.92 percent gee, you're good with math of other dogs.

Speaker 1 12:56

Good yeah have behavioral issues. Yeah, gee, that's um yeah that's very validating actually.

Lively Conversation About Daily Life

Speaker 2 13:04

It's very validating. I would just like to say at this juncture that our children were really well behaved, weren't they? And I think we did a pretty good job with them, don't you? They're like really good, you know, sort of ethical, hardworking people, both of our children.

Speaker 1 13:23

Well, they probably got more Nice, nice people. They got more attention than the dogs did, though, when it comes to behaviour.

Speaker 2 13:29

Well, no, oh did they.

Speaker 1 13:30

Yes, because.

Speaker 2 13:31

Ryder arrived in the middle of COVID. Ryder had massive quantities of attention.

Speaker 1 13:35

Yes, I know, but still, he's a dog and dogs are pretty good at teaching themselves how to behave in the way that they want if you let them and we didn't do a heck of a lot of, you know, puppy school training with Ryder, because he was just so cute he was adorable we got that girl I remember and she said turn your back on them when they miss their day.

Speaker 1 13:58

Ah, right, yeah, that's right, yeah. And I turned my back on her. How could you be so cruel to a dog to turn your back on them?

Speaker 2 14:04

anyway. So we were here in in Curl Curl on Saturday night and um you couldn't book at the place and the place which is called the Beach Eatery, oh, which is fantastic.

Speaker 1 14:15

It's new in Curl Curl.

Speaker 2 14:18

If anybody's not from Sydney and is coming from overseas, you should come to the Northern Beaches and eat at the Beach Eatery, which is I'm not doing the advertisement. They haven't paid me but it's smack. On Curl Curl Beach it's tops.

Speaker 1 14:29

You don't even need to have come from overseas Anybody local, just get down to Kirkle.

Speaker 2 14:33

Just get down there.

Speaker 1 14:37

I think it's Wednesday to Saturday night. They have the bar open and fantastic food.

Speaker 2 14:39

Anyway. So we got down there a bit early, because we why did we get there?

Speaker 4 14:46

I did to get a table because you couldn't book you couldn't book, you couldn't book Anyway.

Speaker 1 14:49

I volunteered to take the table.

Speaker 2 14:53

And then you sort of errantly volunteered to walk the dogs, which is ridiculous because we broke David. We broke David moving house. He's actually stumbling around like an 80-year-old at the moment.

Speaker 1 15:07

I'm repairing.

Speaker 2 15:08

It's a very slow process.

Speaker 1 15:09

I'm back to 70.

Speaker 2 15:12

Anyway. So then I said I'll be a spry 58 before you know it. Yes, I so look forward to 70. Wait.

Speaker 1 15:14

Anyway, anyway. So then I said I'll be a spry 58 before you know it.

Speaker 4 15:16

Yes, you know.

Speaker 3 15:17

I so look forward to that.

Speaker 2 15:21

So I said to David I will go and walk the dogs, Walk the dogs on a leash and it was a very, very. I didn't say on a leash, it was implied.

Speaker 1 15:30

It's the dog park.

Speaker 2 15:32

I did not say on a leash, I said I will walk the dogs.

Speaker 1 15:36

Okay, anyway, so we're on a time frame, with our guest joining us at 6.30.

Speaker 2 15:41

Yes, and it was three minutes past six, because I look at the clock all the time. Anyway, I set off and let's just remember at this juncture that I was dressed for dinner. Yes, it was a very hot evening, it was airless, it? Yes, it was a very hot evening, it was airless, it was stultifying.

Speaker 1 15:54

But you were dressed very nicely. I looked really good. That's right, I can't help myself. Pressed linen. I looked great.

Speaker 2 16:01

Yes, and I had on a pair of really cute lace-up shoes and socks. Anyway, I set off with the dogs and I got to the bit of the dog park.

Speaker 1 16:16

We have been to the dog park frequently where it says off leash and so I let them off. You didn't let them off the leash, did you?

Speaker 2 16:19

and it was terrific because they ran around and did zoomies and and yo-yo and and rider and rider, as is his want. Um mounted the first golden lab that he could get his haunches near. Rider by name, rider by nature, I never thought of that yeah. And so then I had to. It was getting a bit hot by now, but anyway. So then I had to pull rider off the back of this young, inexperienced male Labrador.

Speaker 3 16:55

Very good-looking one Very good-looking.

Speaker 2 16:57

And right, it was a bit disappointing. Anyway, then off they went and there was a very charming man with one of those ball-throwing things who had a Rottweiler, and then there was a collective of dogs around his feet and he threw it and Yo-Yo brought it back and it went so well and I was so happy. I thought, god, this is just going so well. I'm so happy that we're moving down nearer to the beach.

Speaker 1 17:21

And so I'm there sitting at the table, you know, watching the waves roll in, our guest arrives. Hello how are you? You know, we catch up and all's going well, and then we notice that it's past 6.30.

Speaker 2 17:34

Yes, where's Annie? Ah, and let me intervene. Could anything have gone wrong? Is that what you thought? Has anything gone wrong?

Speaker 1 17:39

Well, yeah, I wondered, and it was a bit past 6.30 when I saw you approaching.

Speaker 2 17:45

No, it wasn't a bit past 6.30. It was more, but let me tell you. Let me tell you, the next thing that happened was it was about 25 past six and it had gone swimmingly and I was on my way back with the dogs and Yo-Yo got a rush of blood to the head and, instead of sticking to the path and the lovely, endless rolling green area that she could have been enjoying, she headed off at a million miles an hour across the drenched car park. It had been bucketing and there was about I don't know how many centimetres is that of water.

Speaker 1 18:25

I think inches, that looks about 10 inches of water.

Speaker 2 18:28

So there was about 10 inches of water. Just remembering everybody listeners that I had a lovely linen outfit on and had done my hair, had makeup on. Anyway, she hairs off towards the road through this car park that is underwater. And now Ryder is one of life's great followers. He's not a leader, he's a follower. So he glumped off after her and I'm yelling Ryder, yo-yo, rider, yo-yo. Of course they didn't turn around, herring off towards the road. So I had to take off in my nice linen outfit, in my shoes and socks. I had to wade across the wet car park, running splashing. While I'm trying to call David to explain that what had happened, maybe he could assist or at least let our guests know.

Speaker 1 19:21

No, I'm chatting to Lynne.

Speaker 2 19:22

Guess what happened when I tried to ring you.

Speaker 1 19:25

Go on guess, Go on guess, Guess Well, the phone rang.

Speaker 2 19:28

Yeah, where was the phone?

Speaker 1 19:29

Here and I remember very clearly when we left I said I don't need to take my phone or my wallet. Isn't that right? And you said yes at the time.

Speaker 2 19:38

Yes, well, that was a mistake because and the thing is that is a recurrent issue with me it happened this morning. I was standing at the chemist wanting to know if you want any of your medication, and I tried to call you and you don't pick up.

Speaker 1 19:51

Oh look, thank you for disclosing publicly that I need medication.

Speaker 2 19:56

We all need medication, David, and secondly I was asleep.

Speaker 1 20:02

Yeah but it was like it was half past nine.

Speaker 4 20:09

Do I ever? Do I ever?

Speaker 1 20:09

take exception when it's half past nine in the evening and we're watching telly and you announce I'm going to bed now.

Speaker 2 20:13

I don't do it like that, I don't go. I go like this, I go. I'll just do it for you, I go, it's time for mummy to go to bed, I go goodnight my darlings. That's a fantasy.

Speaker 1 20:28

You announce I'm done, I'm going to bed now. Be quiet and be quiet and be quiet, and then from. That point forward. You know, no matter where we are, it becomes eggshell floors.

Speaker 2 20:40

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 20:41

Make any noise and we know about it.

Speaker 2 20:43

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 20:43

Now I just want to remind you that I never complain, that you have gone to bed and the cone of silence descends over us.

Speaker 2 20:50

Is that actually an unreasonable thing when I've been up since quarter past six to go to the gym, to want to go to bed at half past nine? No, it's not.

Speaker 1 20:58

And is it an unreasonable thing? The last couple of months that we have, had that, finally, I don't have to fix a hole in the roof, you know, or straighten the gutters.

Speaker 2 21:08

Did we get the stuff out of the attic in the house? Yes, we did. Okay, go on, keep going.

Speaker 1 21:12

Yeah, because I did that. Yes, very good you know I wanted to sit down, but instead I ascended a ladder, crawled into that space and got the stuff out of the attic, it's true. And I figure it's only about three days since we stopped work.

Speaker 2 21:25

I need to recover and if I'm still asleep, it means I'm paying back my substantial sleep debt. All right, you could well be right, Okay?

Speaker 1 21:35

So, yes, I didn't answer the phone this morning. Okay, so what I then had to do, because I was asleep.

Speaker 2 21:38

Yeah, then I had to text my son and then he anyway, Okay, let's go back.

Speaker 1 21:43

So that was this morning. Let's go back to the restaurant.

Speaker 2 21:53

Okay, so then I'm going. I didn't answer my phone because, god, I'm drenched, I'm sweaty, my feet are squelching. I can't find the dogs. I've tried to call David, and then I thought what I'll do is I'll text our guest and say can you, when you arrive, tell David that the dogs have run off and that I need help? And also that's where I am and that's why I'm late. Anyway. Then I'm running, I'm running, I'm running, I'm running around the place calling people are looking at me because I'm clearly one of those dog owners that has no capacity to control my dogs. And then out of the bushes, covered in burrs, sopping wet, probably covered in ticks as well there was probably a leech in there as well Along they came.

Speaker 1 22:43

As happy as anything.

Speaker 2 22:44

Happy, thrilled, hi, they went. It's you. What are you doing in the car park? Oh, fancy meeting you here. So then I got them, I growled at them and eventually got them back on the lead and then had to walk a really long way. So I didn't get back till 10 to 7. And when I did get back, I knew something was wrong. Because of the look on my face, I looked at.

Speaker 1 23:08

Annie's face and I thought she hasn't been on a leisurely stroll with the dogs on a leash.

Speaker 2 23:13

No.

Speaker 1 23:13

Something's gone wrong. Yeah, I hasn't been on a leisurely stroll with the dogs on a leash. No, something's gone wrong. Yeah, I wasn't on a leisurely stroll and somehow I'm responsible for something.

Speaker 2 23:17

Yeah, yeah, that's right for not picking up your phone anyway that you didn't have, but okay, never mind, we won't go there again. So then that was that. That was the, and it has been. There has been a lot of running away. Was the famously, the time that they um got out the back gate at our old house and um, our son rang us. We were at a function and said that one of the neighbors had come down and had seen them disappearing into the bush. And uh, so we said look, just go across the road into the bush and call. And then he got back to us about half an hour later and said there was no sign of them, and he said I'm going to go and get the megaphone out of my car. Do you remember that?

Speaker 1 24:05

Yes, our son owns a megaphone.

Speaker 2 24:07

He owns a megaphone and it was housed in his car and so he went across, got, got a chair, got the megaphone, ordered uber eats and then sat in the sat over the road as the dusk fell, calling through a megaphone pointlessly because three and a half hours passed. Yes and um. They'd apparently anybody who lives um on the northern beaches of sydney. They'd gone from a Lambie Heights down to Oringa Mall, presumably to do, I don't know, to take advantage of the sails or something, I think.

Speaker 2 24:41

It's about three and a half kilometres through the bush, Three and a half kilometres across a lot of roads. I think riders probably went to Witchery, had a little shop he likes that. I don't know. Maybe Yo-Yo went to EB Games. I'm not sure what they did, but they were found down there and actually Ryder was caught by someone. There was people out everywhere in the end looking for them Wasn't there. We'd sent the network out and Yo-Yo made her way home.

Speaker 4 25:02

Yeah, of course she did.

Speaker 1 25:03

Yeah, she's a retriever.

Speaker 4 25:04

You say, she comes back.

Speaker 2 25:05

Yes, actually there's that retriever thing in her. Yeah, Anyway so the point whole story about the recalcitrance of the dogs.

Speaker 1 25:16

Dogs will be dogs.

Speaker 2 25:17

Is that why? What is it in my behavior where I think it's going to be different this time? And even though she has Yo-Yo has been recurrently naughty and disobedient, why is it that I cling to the idea that this time it's going to be fine, and where else? What is that? What drives that thinking? And where else do we do that? Where else do we look at a situation, ignore past indicators of future behaviour and stay in some sort of magical optimistic place and, upon reflection, I think we do it with people. Yeah, I think we do it with. Yeah, I think we do it with.

Rationalizing Behavior With Motivated Reasoning

Speaker 1 26:18

do you think we do it with people? Yeah, although we most definitely do it with people, I mean it's, I mean the the fundamental dynamic is that you, you, you overestimate. In this instance, you overestimate the likelihood that they're going to do the right thing or they're going to do the thing that makes sense to you. With animals, there's a word for it. The term is anthropomorphism when you actually credit animals with having thought processes that they don't actually have, and that's why I overfeed them. That is why I tell you what they're getting a bit chubby at the moment, after all the work that I did to bring them back to have an acceptable BMI. I was looking at Ryder the other day and I'm thinking, oh gee, you're a bit fat.

Speaker 2 27:04

Yeah, they've chumped up. They have chumped up, and I know I'm responsible for that. What are you looking at me like that? For Harry, didn't they've jumped up? Oh my God, harry's being judgy on me as well.

Speaker 2 27:14

Yeah, Harry's noticed it as well, have you noticed as well that they're fatter? Well, I'll tell you what Because you overfeed them, I know. Do you know why I feel sorry for them? Well, I know it's not rational. Also because when we were moving I thought, oh, they're probably really discombobulated and upset upset about moving I thought I'd better give them more food.

Speaker 1 27:34

You know I'm looking.

Speaker 2 27:35

I do have you know I'm Jewish and I'm obviously a massive atheist, but in my blood I'm Jewish.

Speaker 1 27:43

I mean, we feed people, I feed dogs.

Speaker 2 27:44

I don't feed you.

Speaker 1 27:46

No, yeah, this is the thing you either feed the dogs, and it's like if I have a second spoonful of yogurt, you know I get side-eyed. It's like if I have a second spoonful of yogurt, you know I get side-eyed.

Speaker 2 27:58

It's like Well, because they don't have high cholesterol.

Speaker 1 28:04

We don't know that I have high cholesterol.

Speaker 2 28:06

Oh, we do.

Speaker 1 28:06

Certainly we do. No, it was on the way down last time we checked.

Speaker 2 28:09

But you're on, okay, it's because you're on statin Show. It should be.

Speaker 1 28:16

There you are disclosing my medical history again.

Speaker 2 28:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 28:19

You should ask permission before you do that, can I?

Speaker 2 28:21

please disclose your medical history.

Speaker 1 28:23

No.

Speaker 2 28:24

Okay, he's not on statins. I was lying, anyway, so here's the thing.

Speaker 1 28:29

Peter Atiyah reckons everybody should be on statins from the age of 30. Yeah, I agree. So what can?

Speaker 2 28:34

you do. But as we know the natural I trust my own immune system crowd that thinks that as long as you eat healthily and exercise and don't get stressed, you're going to remain fine, and that crowd of course, doesn't think anybody should take anything.

Speaker 1 28:53

I wouldn't mind trying. That though what Eating properly. We do eat properly. That though, what Eating properly.

Speaker 2 28:56

We do eat properly. Exercising you could exercise more, I'm perfect and not being stressed. Yeah, you'd have to move out from me.

Speaker 1 29:06

The constant stressor. Yeah, what are you eating now?

Speaker 2 29:09

Yeah, yeah sorry, that is bad. I'm sorry about that. What was I talking about? Oh yeah, the natural crowd. Let's not, let's just only let's never, ever take a medication. Did you see it here about? I'm digressing, but did you see that? That guy that was doing slapping therapy told the woman to stop taking the diabetes medication.

Speaker 1 29:30

Oh no, he didn't, did he? And?

Speaker 2 29:31

she died, yeah, and he's been jailed. This is the biggest. In my opinion, the appeal to nature bias is one of the most dangerous biases that people can actually buy into this idea that anything natural is good for you and this idea that you can fight a virus. You don't need a vaccine, you don't need anything, you don't need antibiotics Like what. Do they think that prior to the advent of these things, people just lived long, luxurious lives? People died constantly of things, of viruses, of cuts, of chest infections. People died constantly. The idea that you don't need medications when you. Obviously it's better to exercise and eat properly and don't smoke, but if you need medication, take medication.

Speaker 1 30:25

And if you've got a dog and you're late for dinner. Get the dog on the lead.

Speaker 2 30:34

Are you saying that I've got an appeal to nature bias to do with the dog? Yeah, what? Yeah? Isn't it an appeal to nature bias?

Speaker 1 30:40

No, no, it was an appeal to nature, because you were saying we're in the dog park.

Speaker 2 30:44

Yeah, right, yeah.

Speaker 1 30:45

So we were in that environment.

Speaker 2 30:47

Yeah.

Speaker 1 30:47

And therefore that environment would persuade Yo-Yo to be obedient and come when you call her. It's an appeal to you know, grudal nature, dog park nature.

Speaker 2 30:59

Not, it's motivated reasoning.

Speaker 1 31:01

Well, what Are you saying? That cognitive errors only ever have one source.

Speaker 2 31:05

I'm saying that in this instance it's complicated what you've just said and will just confuse people. An appeal to nature bias.

Speaker 1 31:13

I'm confusing people. I'm not confusing. We started talking about the dog and then we were on to natural therapies and statins. I know.

Speaker 2 31:20

I know, sorry about that everybody. Okay, back to the dog thing. Okay, tell you what my cognitive, my issue was motivated reasoning, I want, I wanted to believe that the dogs would I'm still surprised that it happened would just go for a nice run, they'd go back on the lead and I'd come back at 6.30.

Speaker 1 31:43

So motivated Yo-Yo would bound up to you gratefully and offer her collar to be clipped back on. Yeah, that yeah.

Speaker 2 31:50

So motivated reasoning is where you reason your way through something in order to reach a conclusion that you want, and it made sense to me at the time. That's motivated reason.

Speaker 1 32:01

Motivated reason. Could you give me an example of how that happens in behavior with human beings rather than dog, you know? I mean, I think about women who stay with men who are just very badly behaved. And yes, of course they want to think that they can fix their men, that they can improve them, that they can get them to behave better, but unfortunately the men don't.

Speaker 2 32:22

Yeah, that's right. That's motivated reasoning, isn't it?

Speaker 1 32:24

Absolutely. You know the poor women who leave domestic violence situations. They go into a shelter and then after a few weeks they call the man and say you know, I miss you. And this is where I am, because they want to believe that their behaviour is going to change.

Speaker 2 32:41

Yes.

Speaker 1 32:42

And I think that's a very real and very, very unfortunate manifestation of what you're talking about yeah well, it's very, very pernicious. In human behaviour.

Rules of Engagement for Women

Speaker 2 32:50

That we want to believe what we want to believe. Yeah, and we will skew reality and this is, of course, unconscious, we don't know, we're doing it because we're mysteries to ourselves but we will skew reality till it fits the way we want it to fit. And yeah, I was talking to someone, one of the beautiful young women at a party the other night and she was telling me how she got dumped by somebody and she was really. She said it absolutely destroyed her self-esteem, she was feeling pretty good about herself, but then it's almost like that gaslighting sorry I didn't call you, but I'm calling you now. You know I do love you, sorry, I've been away All that sort of lying, gaslighting behavior and it's destroyed her self-esteem because along the way, she was trying to believe him.

Speaker 2 33:50

She was trying to believe that he would do the right thing and he was doing the right thing and that he would change and that she would be the one. And of course we hand over, especially women. We hand over our sense of self and our self-esteem so often into the hands of men, and we shouldn't.

Speaker 1 34:11

Is that because you know how? You mentioned the dog statistic of 0.08% free of behavioural issues?

Speaker 2 34:19

Yeah.

Speaker 1 34:19

Have you done the research into men?

Speaker 2 34:21

No, no, I haven't. And look, we have to be careful. There's very, very decent men. They're very, you know, you're one of them.

Speaker 1 34:30

Oh well.

Speaker 2 34:32

Hello.

Speaker 1 34:33

How do you know that's not motivated reasoning?

Speaker 2 34:35

You're undermining your Well.

Speaker 4 34:37

I do my best.

Speaker 2 34:39

I wouldn't be undermining my thinking around this. If I were you, I'd be leaving me thinking well of you. All right, okay yeah, I'd leave that well alone, okay yeah. So there are very, very decent men and there's, unfortunately, a lot of men who are abusing women and then the women using motivated reasoning to continue to stay in their relationships and then somehow blaming themselves, and I think a lot of the, as you well know, a lot of that current well, it's not current. I hear this thinking all the time. I hear this thinking all the time. It's just the latest version of an old tune. Is that you know you're being sent this lesson to learn from it, and what is it about? You and somebody else's behaviour is just a projection of you, and it just means that women, who are actually victims of situations, end up being made responsible for it. It makes me really angry, yeah.

Speaker 1 35:37

Do you know that Dua Lipa song? Please don't sing it. New.

Speaker 2 35:43

Rules no, we could play. We don't know it. No, but we could maybe get. Are we allowed to play that? I don't know? Probably some copyright thing. No, it's better if I sing it. Go on.

Speaker 1 35:53

I got new rules, I'll count them.

Speaker 2 35:56

Go on, sing it One don't pick up the phone.

Speaker 1 35:58

You know he's only calling when he's drunk and alone. Two don't let him in. You'll have to kick him out again. Three don't be his friend. You know you're going to wake up in his bed in the morning. If you're under him, you ain't getting over him. I got new rules. I count them. Yeah, sorry, sorry about the singing.

Speaker 2 36:16

Oh, that's really good, that's really good.

Speaker 1 36:17

But I thought, I mean, I just reckon, I mean this is the benefit of pop culture when you know, I know that people think that you know Dua Lipa and her ilk are just, you know, pop tarts and all of that sort of stuff.

Speaker 2 36:32

I don't think that.

Speaker 1 36:33

No, I don't think that at all I love her. I think it's a fantastic anthem for just going. You know, forget about it. You know, stop with the motivated reasoning that it's going to get good, that you're ever going to have any good behaviour in this relationship, and you know these are the rules.

Speaker 2 36:47

Yeah, that's right, because if you've shown your cards early, why, if your behaviour early in the piece is bad, why is that going to change?

Speaker 3 36:55

Why is it going to change?

Speaker 2 36:56

I mean, I know people that have stayed in relationships for, you know, decades, where the man is either feckless or awful.

Speaker 1 37:09

The creative of the video clip is that she is with her friends Yep, and they are helping her to break the trance of the motivated reasoning. Yeah, good, so that's the creative of it. It all takes place in the flat. It's nicely choreographed, it's dancing.

Speaker 2 37:27

Yeah.

Speaker 1 37:29

But also I think that there's some wisdom in that, and that is that you were on your own with Yo-Yo and you wanted to let Yo-Yo off the lead motivated reasoning. You didn't have anybody with you to help you make your decision.

Speaker 2 37:40

Absolutely.

Speaker 1 37:42

Have the opportunity to be improved or scrutinized.

Speaker 2 37:46

It's so right, it's just so right. And I keep saying, you know, because I go to the gym, as you know, in the morning and I spend quite a lot of time with women that are much younger than me, and a lot of them are still on their own, and I'm so profoundly impressed by them because they have such rich, interesting, happy lives, interesting, happy lives. You know, they exercise and they go out to parties and they socialize and they eat great food and they drink and they laugh all the time. They're not dependent on a male at this time to complete them. And I don't mean for a minute, I'm not buying into that. You can't be happy with someone else until you're happy on your own, because that's just simplistic crap, right.

Speaker 2 38:38

But I think that and this is what I was saying to my friend that we had dinner with on Saturday night she's a little bit older and she was talking about whether or not, to date, the amount of women that are like, well, unless I'm going to find someone that's actually in addition to my life as opposed to these women, have good lives. They're busy, you can have a full life. If you're going to invite somebody into your life, then they need to be an additive to it, not a drain. And yet this idea that women have to you have to be in a relationship, and for men too, I mean, obviously it's nice, as long as it's adding something to the richness of your life, right, like the grudels add to the richness of our lives. How long have we been talking for Harry? But oh, okay, so we better wrap it up there because, everybody, we're going to do a bonus episode for you later in the week, the details of which I will let you know. Yes, david, did you want to speak? Put your hand up nicely.

Speaker 2 39:42

Oh, look you know I was.

Speaker 1 39:46

You know. I know that we're not going to crack the age-old problem of you know men behaving badly in this podcast, but I think that there's. You know. I go back to Yo-Yo and Ryder on the leash. The only thing that's going to change their behavior in that instance is that they don't get released right, they don't get off the leash. Their environment actually says these are the limits of what you're able to do.

Speaker 2 40:14

Yeah.

Speaker 1 40:14

It's the environment that's going to change it.

Speaker 2 40:16

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 40:17

And look, you know, at the risk of sounding like some dreadful, you know virtue signaling, you know male champion of change, or whatever it is, it just seems to me that, in order for, okay, you want to change the behavior of a dog, you have to change the relationship, you have to change the environment. Yeah, what you were saying about women forming a view which is I'm not going to have a relationship for the sake of having a relationship, yep, I will only, you know, open myself up or, you know, engage with this other human being, this man if they're an additive.

Speaker 1 40:54

I'd like that to be the anthem. I'd like to have the rules for engaging men to be consistent, so that these guys get the message, because that's the only thing that's going to change it.

Speaker 2 41:08

Yeah, that's right.

Speaker 1 41:09

You go back to, and it's always been thus. It was Euripides' the Women who said the war has got to end, and they stopped the war by saying no to the men. If you know the play, then you know what I'm talking about. I won't go into the detail of it.

Speaker 2 41:25

Yeah.

Speaker 1 41:26

So yeah, I mean, from my perspective, it breaks my heart to see what so many women put up with and accept as acceptable behaviour from you know the rest of the brotherhood? And yeah, I would. I reckon you know rules of engagement.

Speaker 2 41:44

Yeah, I like it.

Speaker 1 41:45

You don't treat me like that.

Speaker 2 41:46

Yeah. And men are only going to get better. First red flag, first red flag. Yeah, bail out. Don't use motivated reasoning. It's not just that, he's stressed, that's the way he behaved, okay.

Speaker 1 41:58

Can I take the leash off now, annie? Is that okay? Okay, have I said enough nice things. To go out into the backyard? Yes, you may go out into the backyard and play with a ball.

Speaker 2 42:08

Okay, thanks so much, smart women, for listening. Tune in again soon. We are heading into Christmas. Have a good one. Bye.

Reshaping the Narrative for Women

Speaker 2 42:26

Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.

Speaker 2 43:36

This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.