Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
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Financial anxiety is a common obstacle many women face, often stemming from societal norms and delegation of financial responsibility to male partners. Jacqui Clarke emphasises the importance of financial awareness and accountability for women to gain confidence and take control of their financial futures.
• Understanding societal influences and financial delegation
• The mental load women carry about finances
• Recognising coercive financial control
• Importance of accountability in financial health
• Developing a future-oriented money mindset
• Addressing emotional spending and expense creep
• Strategies for reclaiming financial narratives and confidence
• Encouragement to engage in financial discussions with partners
Remember to send your questions for Jacqui about money!
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Smart Women Discuss Financial Responsibility
Speaker 1You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur, jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast.
Speaker 1I'm Annie McCubbin, and today I have the extreme pleasure of talking to Jackie Clark, who has written a book called Stop Worrying About Money. I've just started worrying about money, which has not gone very well for me. I've spent the first I don't know few decades of my life not worrying, and now I am worrying and that's not going well, but so we'll be able to talk about that with Jackie and also we have in the studio. Is it Rusty? It's Rusty. And what is Rusty, jackie? He's a purebred kelpie. Oh, rusty's a purebred kelpie and Rusty's having a lovely chew on a plastic bone, aren't you Rusty?
Speaker 2actually he does this when people come over, like he gets excited, so he starts playing with his toys, sort of showing off with the bone Totally.
Speaker 1He'll give up eventually.
Speaker 2Hopefully he'll get bored of us talking yeah.
Speaker 1And Jackie is also living in an apartment and, as listeners will know, I have recently moved into an apartment with my two dogs, two gigantic Groodles, as everyone will know. So I'm happy to see someone else is living. This is Glebe or Forest Lodge. Where are we?
Speaker 1we're in the little suburb of forest lodge, which is squeezed very neatly between annandale and glebe yes it's a little strip of land yes, I have active friends that live around here yes and um, they moved from a house as well, and I absolutely love the whole. They, in fact, were the ones that motivated me to sell my house, to sell our house and move into an apartment it's great.
Speaker 2I think it's the best thing we've ever done and it's an excellent part of a financial strategy.
Speaker 1Okay, so let's talk financial strategy please, because you are the expert and I clearly am not.
Speaker 2Where should we begin? Where?
Speaker 1should we start? Okay, tell me what your book's about Give me the pricey on your book.
Speaker 2Well, I wrote the book. The intention was to help people out and I think right from the get-go, my real focus is around getting people's house in order, so understanding what money goes out, what money comes in. So getting on top of that is the critical starting point. But actually for me it really came from a place of anxiety originally. So I think growing up I was very aware of finances at home when I was growing up. Did you grow up in a household where finances were tight.
Speaker 2It wasn't tight, no, but I was aware of the impact of my family's business on our income.
Speaker 1If that makes sense. What was your family's?
Speaker 2business. Dad was a builder, a builder and a plumber, so you were very much the whole business was at home. You know, the people rang on the phone and said, hey, we'd like you to come and fix our block sewer.
Speaker 1Were you allowed to pick up the phone.
Speaker 2I was.
Speaker 1And in fact I took a lot of pride in it, Did you?
Speaker 2Yeah, I think probably by the age of 10, I was the one who I would run to answer the phone, Say I'll get it. We had a job of pleasure in that.
Speaker 1Was it a phone with the curly thing?
Speaker 2We had two, so you can imagine having a sister and well, teenagers in our household. My parents really appreciated that because we would spend all night on one of the lines and the business would come through on the other line. Do you still remember your home phone number? Yes, I sure do. What is it? 9888 2230. Isn't that?
Speaker 1classic? Yeah, yeah, I sure do. What is it? 9-888-2230. Isn't that classic? Yeah yeah, I was 949-2659. It's so funny, isn't it? Because, just in terms of brain function, is that so often? You know, I'll come across someone and I'll look at them and I'll go oh my God, I know you so well. I cannot remember your name. I cannot remember the name of anybody on television. I well, I cannot remember your name. I cannot remember the name of anybody on television. I have the worst time, as do all my friends, and yet in the back blocks of my brain, I can pointlessly remember my childhood phone number.
Speaker 2It is a little bit silly when you think about it.
Speaker 1Yeah, the brain, yeah the brain is not designed for the modern age unfortunately, and it certainly doesn't appear to be designed for us to be aware of money and keeping our house in order.
Speaker 2No, and actually that's a good segue to, I think, because a lot of people choose to ignore it.
Speaker 1Why do they? Do you think?
Speaker 2Jackie. Well, it's in the too hard basket. Definitely, or probably, the most common thing in our households is that they've already delegated financial responsibility, and this is something I really want to talk to you about today.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Because it seems that quite traditionally women delegate financial responsibility in their household to someone else, usually a male partner, and I think that's historic. It partly comes from. It's a societal norm, of course it's kind of like the man of the house or the breadwinner whoever that might be tends to take responsibility for the finances.
Speaker 2So you know, and I guess it's natural, if you are child-rearing at any stage and you're at home doing that, then somebody's out at work and they're in an office, maybe, or they're on a building site, wherever they might be. It's like you delegate financial things that way, which is interesting. And you know, somebody did say to me recently that it's a mental load, so they delegate it because of the mental load they're already carrying.
Speaker 1Well, we already know, right, that the mental load of women is right up there. Yeah, I can attest to that, we can attest to that. Because we can attest to that? Because you have how many boys? Five, you have five boys, so your mental load is right up there, yes, and I know. In terms of so I think there's two. Well, there's obviously many prongs to why we do it, and one is the societal norm and the way, the structure and the patriarchal society in which we live. And, of course, at one end of it it is just the mental load and it's quite benign or there may be not optimum. At the other end, that financial control ends up in coercion and control, right where you have the man is so much in control of the woman's finances.
Speaker 2That is absolutely a way of controlling her movement is that would have you come across that too I have, and my earliest experience was growing up when the man who lived across the road, his wife, was given an allowance and she had to arrange the weekly finances, including the food that went on the table in that allowance. And I still remember when the local shopping centre was opened where I grew up and my mum would tend to go there and go with her friend. That was before people went and had coffee.
Speaker 1Yeah, pre-coffee PC.
Speaker 2Before things were around like that. And it was really clear that this woman was working towards this budget and beyond that point. You know, when the kids needed, for example, extra things like uniforms, this time of the year people would be going and buying new school shoes. Things would start to go a little bit pear-shaped because she just wouldn't have the money.
Speaker 1And he was controlling the purse strings. He was absolutely controlling the purse strings and it wasn't because they didn't have the money. He was just controlling it, yeah and I've seen it in relationships.
Speaker 2I think in the modern day as well, friends particularly who haven't taken that role and been accountable financially, that if they then go through a relationship breakdown, have you seen this firsthand? I have seen this firsthand.
Speaker 1So what they're in a relationship and they haven't taken responsibility. Let's say they're in a marriage, a long-term marriage.
Speaker 2Yes, and then what happens? And their partner may have bought particular types of investments. Didn't tell them about it. People have gambling habits. So I've seen people with relatively well-hidden gambling habits or behaviours Whoa Bank accounts that aren't shared. So I always recommend people do have joint bank accounts.
Speaker 1Yes, I have friends where their bank accounts are separate and I find it, I don't know, quite alien to me.
Speaker 2Well, research would indicate that couples who have joint bank accounts last longer than couples with couples who don't, who don't share their finances. Wow, that's interesting, so even notwithstanding the risks of somebody gambling or frittering it away.
Speaker 1Having joint bank accounts perhaps is part of the way you come together, recognizing each other's individual spending habits right and also I think I don't know, I met my husband and we were both jobbing actors and I can remember we'd only been together a couple of months and he paid my rent. I remember that quite clearly. And then, from that moment, everything has been shared. Unfortunately, we're both quite profligate. Unfortunately, we're both quite profligate. And do you know?
Speaker 1there's a very interesting brain floor that plays into this notion of the fact that we ignore our finances now. We don't think into the future and that is when you think of yourself in the future. The part of your brain fires off.
Speaker 1That is the same part of your brain that when you think about a stranger goodness me so that means that it's why diets don't work, because it's like, well, I can eat this chocolate, cake and cream and ice cream because it's not going to affect me tomorrow. It's going to affect this person. I don't even care about someone in the future. It's someone in the future, and that person in the future is a stranger to you it's so interesting and it so it's interesting.
Speaker 2It is interesting because your financial, so financial security is state of mind, but your financial future can be impacted by what care you take today.
Speaker 1I guess it's no different to your, your well-being.
Speaker 2I call it financial well-being it is there's other types of well-being. They all are. They are predicated on you taking care now and we don't no, we don't. We don't, but I wouldn't mind coming back to that. Um coercive control, sure, and financial abuse, which? I write about because one of the things I have seen and this is really interesting a lot of successful women yeah are the people who are subject to financial abuse yes or coercive control and what's what I find intriguing about it is, over a period of time in a relationship, how confidence wanes in women and this comes in lots of different forms.
Speaker 2So if someone says you're not good enough, or and they take care of the finances and you're not good enough with this, and people's confidence slowly drops off to the point where they don't pay attention to those types of things and then they get in a position where they're no longer able to make decisions themselves because they're not sure. And I see smart women having that smart women who've got very successful careers but have that almost decision making confidence taken away from them them by an undermining partner yes, who may not necessarily be or may not be doing it intentionally initially, but it becomes a pattern, it doesn't matter no.
Speaker 2And then how that plays in very strongly is when the relationship actually breaks down or when somebody like the woman says, okay, at time, I've had enough, I need to exit here.
Understanding Status Dynamics in Relationships
Speaker 1That's when it gets really difficult, because you don't have information and you don't have information and your confidence has been whacked, has been whacked um, david and I have done a lot of my. He's my partner, oh, he's my husband and my business partner and we both come from an acting background. So what we've done, we do a lot of training. We do a lot of corporate training and leadership training, etc. And part of what we do is around this principle of status. So and a status dynamic.
Speaker 1Um, like at the moment, you and I are in a, sometimes you speak and, because you are an expert on finances and I'm not, you have the status and then maybe I'll go back to something that I have some information of. So then I will have the status and this status can be expressed in in many, many ways and in healthy relationships, the status dynamic and what we very, very simply, the person with the status determines the outcome of the relationship in that moment. Right, where do you want to go to dinner? Okay, I want to go to thai, we go to thai, you have determined it. So in healthy relationships, the status dynamic is fluid.
Speaker 1In unhealthy relationships, the status dynamic is fixed and often in these very sort of coercive, controlling relationships, what happens is one person has the status and the other person is always in the appeasing role, always trying to appease always trying to keep the peace, always sitting on the fence, not wanting to make trouble and, unfortunately, because this status dynamic comes from the limbic system part of the brain, the emotional part of the brain, to your point, very smart women can absolutely be reactively low status and submissive all of the time, and just their confidence. It's interesting what you say that confidence wanes.
Speaker 2I've seen it. But pecked at right, is that right? It doesn't take a whole lot. And look, taking myself personally, my first husband suffered from major depressive illness. He was pretty sick often and you get into a style where you're not necessarily yourself because you have to. You know there's like landmines everywhere. You want to be careful about certain types of triggers.
Speaker 2You want to keep the peace, so you do things a particular kind of way now, I'm not I'm not talking about that with respect to finances, but being aware that if somebody's got a particular trait or style, you start to adjust yourself. In any relationship we always there's always give and take in a relationship yeah, but I think in some it's just natural that you start to recognize over time that if I want the this easy path, this is how I need to adjust my behavior.
Speaker 1100, and I think it does feed into your financial future in a way, doesn't it? Because if you're in a relationship with someone that does have a major depressive illness, that is very um, timeconsuming and energy-sucking for you. I know the thought of having to tread on eggshells to be in a relationship where you would have to be and I think a lot of women go through this where they have to be careful, where anything can trigger the person into a negative reaction or a depressed reaction yeah, I'm taking up in mind what do you got?
Speaker 1what do you? Where's your focus? Not on your future?
Speaker 2no, I know that's exactly right and maybe it is day to day, but I certainly try and encourage any women or people in any relationship that I come into that it's so important for you to be financially accountable, just to yourself.
Speaker 1And what does that mean? To be financially accountable?
Speaker 2And that is going back to understanding what I use the term what it costs to open your front door. So actually being aware of what the costs are of running your house, okay, yeah, so it's like a massive, just a basic starting point. You get a piece of paper and a pen and you start writing down what are all the things I mean. I often tell people just have a look at the last month's credit card bank account and say what are the expenses, what are the outgoings?
Speaker 1we've got this month. I don't want to do that, Jackie.
Speaker 2Don't make me do that. Yes, there he is. See, he's heard that in your voice. She's trying to make me look at my credit card. He knows. Oh my goodness, there you go. If you needed any, he would tend to respond. If somebody's picked up on your sensitivity to recording your open the front door costs, I didn't like that.
Financial Planning and Downsizing Lifestyle
Speaker 2So, that's a great starting point and I think once you start to know that it's like this responsibility or ownership, it starts to build in you because you start to recognise what the costs are that are being sent out, whether it's to Uber Eats, whether it's to rent or your mortgage, whether it's subscriptions Like I have so many subscriptions Clothes absolutely, or a new tennis racket or a pickleball bat, mortgage clothes. Whether it's subscriptions like I have so many subscriptions clothes absolutely, or a new tennis racket or a pickleball bat, um, you know. Or just because I have, is it obvious? It's like written all over my face, isn't it? Um, you know? Or your pilates or your yoga studio, whatever it might be, uh, just being aware of that. It's a great way of circling back and having a conversation, because if you think about goal setting, I kind of like goal setting Financial goal setting will be the most unsexy things you're on the planet, right, but there's always a way and where there's a will, there's a way.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2And we'll come back to that. Okay, but actually thinking more forward, Annie like looking at five years from now.
Speaker 1Yes, like say, for example, you've just downsized, I don't want to look at five years. La, la, la, la, la, la, la la.
Speaker 2I love this. I love this. You need to know this stuff. What happens if something happens to your partner? Stop it. How will you understand La? Who owns the home? Whose name is it in? Where is your current will? Up to when was the last?
Speaker 1time you drafted it. Yes, I did think about that. Only recently, and then I put it in my list and then I never looked at it again. I tell you I think I hear exactly what you're saying because I love it. I love it Because we've gone from the house with the pool.
Speaker 2I need your husband to be here interviewing me.
Speaker 1No, no, Because he'll be like, tell her tell her, jackie, tell her oh no, he's as bad, except I buy. Like every time I turn up somewhere, everyone goes is that new? And I go no, this is from the back of my wardrobe, like shut up. So I'm a bit of a clothes person. It's the professions of shopaholics. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and he's a. He's a sort of a tech tech person. What and um, whatever he's currently fixated on. Yes, so he's about to go on a skiing holiday love it.
Speaker 2I love skiing too, yeah, yeah I'm not going, I can't ski you gotta do it. You can be a ski bunny. I don't have to to ski, I'm too old to be a ski bunny.
Speaker 1That moment has passed. But thanks anyway. Thanks anyway. So that's his current thing. But I have noticed, to his credit, that he's been going on Gumtree and finding cheaper things and then travelling you know 4,000 kilometres to pick up some mittens or whatever.
Speaker 2So somebody's clearly saying here's the bank balance you know 4,000 kilometres to pick up some mittens or whatever. So I think so. So somebody's clearly saying here's the bank balance, here's my ski trip cost. Are you saying?
Speaker 1well, yeah, I'll tell you what happened. We're in the big house. Big house, 1,000 squares, massive garden, chickens, dogs, pool, da-da-da-da-da-da-da. We suddenly went we're going to gonna move. It took us literally like a day anyway, and then we've. So we've now sold that, got into this small apartment and, of course, me, who spent my life looking at my finances pretty much with one eye shut going. I don't, I don't want to look at that. Everything's going to be fine. And I think, think it's interesting when I have an extremely high optimism bias, very high. I've got a lot of energy and I'm like everything will be fine, because it'll always be fine and anyway. And so we've got into this house, this unit, and I've gone. Oh, hang on.
Speaker 1Hang on, I don't have to spend Right. The electricity isn't going to be as much. We don't have to get anybody to do the pool, exactly we don't have to.
Speaker 2The garden costs the garden the time you get some time back.
Speaker 1Yeah, we know we had like we knew immediately that the time factor was there, but it suddenly occurred to my very slow brain that also it's cheaper to live there, except for living above the bottle shop we, we could change this podcast to be like how to downsize and why?
Speaker 2because from a financial, I know from a lifestyle perspective, from financial perspective, you think, think about all of that mental load, and I know what I shifted going from a family home to an apartment where were you? In a great big home yeah, we were, and not like two kilometers from here, so not very far but a big family home that every time we went away from I used to fret about the rain or the spar of someone left it on, you know, or someone left a heater on, or whatever you name it.
Speaker 2I would worry about it and there was no one that I could really trust to leave the home with while we weren't around. Now that's very different. Now we walk out the door, shut one lock and off we go.
Speaker 1Done, I'll tell you something funny about that? Sorry, I've got this constant allergy and my nose clogs up and I sound like a three-year-old. I'm allergic to you anyway. Um, I got home yesterday I was coaching someone and that massive storm hit. You know that storm yesterday afternoon. Yeah, it was impressive For people who aren't in Australia, and we have quite a few listeners who aren't in Australia. Yesterday in Australia it hit, or here in Sydney it hit 40 degrees Celsius, which is astonishingly hot.
Speaker 1And then at about four o'clock in the afternoon, which is often our way we get this massive change and there was lightning and there was thunder and there was hail.
Speaker 1It was awesome and the temperature dropped 16 degrees. Anyway, I got home and I went out to look at the washing, because my daughter's just moved home to stay there for six, seven weeks and she had this very expensive rug and I put it through the washing, because my daughter's just moved home to stay there for six, seven weeks and she had this very expensive rug and I put it through the washing machine and I went out and all the washing was gone and I was like fuck, someone has been and has stolen my washing. And I rang David and I said did you, did you come home and bring the washing in, which would be a rarity? I'd just like to say that, david did you hear that?
Speaker 1Yeah, that's right. He said no. I said well, it's gone, it's all gone anyway. He said well, maybe our neighbor bought it in. I was like, oh, it's possible. Knock on the door, hi annie. I said hi dead. She said hi rusty darling um anyway she oh, I forgot to tell you I bought your washing in, and how awesome is that. That's pretty special. How special is that? Very collegial and friendly and community minded.
Speaker 2That's another thing is I find around living like this too, it's a bit more of a community. It's different to being in your own home independently.
Speaker 1So do you have community in this? Do you do things with neighbours?
Speaker 2No, they don't, but there's a lovely pub up the road there that has all sorts of things going on, so people love going there.
Speaker 1So you meet there and don't drink. I don't really, you don't drink I can't drink much anymore.
Speaker 2I think that's the age stage You're not trying hard enough, Jackie.
Speaker 1That's what my mum used to say to me She'd say you don't drink enough.
Speaker 2What are you talking about? My favourite drink of all time would be an Australian Shiraz a South Australian Shiraz Yum. And like a glass or two now and I will be horrible and just feel horrible fuzzy head. I'm kind of like a textbook, whatever it it is once you hit 50 kind of things, just maybe also because you're really little maybe, and it's got nowhere to go I don't know. Yeah, per kilo of body weight, you think?
Speaker 1I don't know, I see some.
Speaker 2I see some really lean people get away with drinking mountains. Anyway, I don't know if it is training maybe right, as we know it's not.
Speaker 1It's not a very good thing to do I I, however, do enjoy an occasional five days a week, not seven, because I'm so it's supposed to be the other way around.
Speaker 2It's supposed to be two days a week, not five. Yeah, according to who Jackie? Well, I can list off the scientists that are telling us that that might be good for you.
Speaker 1Yeah that's right, all right. So let's get away from my drinking and my drinking that's a great spot though okay, let's do that for me.
Speaker 2No, don't one of the things that no, this is a good thing for you, but one of the things I have. Like we talk about expense creep, I must throw this in here today. Do you remember back when you're a student in your early days, what you used to drink then?
Speaker 1oh, hang on, it's not it's not. No, is it not a test? No, it's not a test.
Speaker 2I think I don't know what I drank, okay well, like I used to drink things like that lambrusco which was like four dollars 95 a bottle. I'm talking right back or west. Do you remember, like when you're going west coast coolers or things that people used to drink that were pretty?
Navigating Financial Independence and Spending Choices
Speaker 2I used to drink blackberry nip. What is that, I don't know? Okay, okay, was it cheap? Probably Okay. So now that you're an accomplished woman, you probably spend a little bit more at the bottle shop when you go. Yes, and your taste may have, and your point being that this little thing called expense creep happens in our lives when we start to become more financially independent, it's so true, and we're not necessarily measuring the ins and the outs, and we're not necessarily setting financial goals, working out where we're going to head.
Speaker 2You might find it works in reverse, but it's interesting how we just spend more money on things because we think we can.
Speaker 1It's totally true.
Speaker 2In the absence of a financial goal set about the future, which is if I actually wanted to work less or change my working style or work for a not-for-profit for the rest of my life. That's different, and therein lies the decision that you need to make, or the choice that you need to make today about the type of wine that you might be drinking yeah, and I think I always remember, um, when david and I were jobbing actors and uh, we, you know, we had no money and actors, I mean you guys a category of person yeah actors have always been pretty frugal because naturally not a whole lot of income goes with that type of career for one of the better ones.
Speaker 2Yeah, you know, as far as I'm, most sort of creative people acting type people are generally really good with money because they have so little. It's when you get more and probably from the other work that you do when it actually shifts and this expense creep does become a big challenge.
Speaker 1I don't know. I think I've always, even when we were just jobbing actors and we were renting and I don't know actors.
Speaker 2Is it hand to mouth? It is, and if you, put you know.
Speaker 1If you know, it's like you're on set and the catering van arrives and of course actors are on it like a plague of locusts because it's like it's free feed. But I think also actors as a sorry to any of my acting friends I think actors are very prone to magical thinking. I think they are that there's this, you know, everything will be sort of okay. I mean not all of them, but there's a If I think something, I can make it happen. You know that sort of I think you're absolutely right.
Speaker 2In my career, I used to spend time advising models and actors movie actors, and I always found that they were much more, much more hand to mouth, but everything would be okay. There's very little thought about the financial future and that security. I've definitely seen that I don't know if it's this left brain, right brain thing right, which is, I think, if the creative doesn't lend itself to the finance side it doesn't either which is, you know, dotting your eyes, crossing your tears around what's in the bank and I think the lack of um, the lack of continuity or stability of income that we encounter.
Speaker 1So when I know, when I was first with david, maybe in the first decade, and we were just, you know, having hanging around and doing plays and doing the telly or whatever, and um, and then one, I'd get an ad, an advertisement. I did a lot of commercials and commercials, you know they paid pretty well. Yes, and David would notice that as soon as I'd got an ad and as soon as I was paid for it, I would immediately start putting expensive bunches of flowers in the house.
Speaker 2Yeah, and you know what I?
Speaker 2love this, instead of picking them out of the garden them I love this because what happens in a corporate context is people work throughout the year and then they get the bonus you know right in financial services, you get a bonus, yeah, or um year-end companies that have performed well, or a head of budget, doesn't matter what industry you're in, they'll give you a bonus and you would be the one who would get the bonus and spend it straight away, 100%. And I'm saying the same with the tax refund. People get their tax refund, spend it straight away, same. Okay.
Speaker 1I'm saying to people that's the opportunity for you to do something differently. So how can we get? How can we, if there are a lot of people like me, how do we get them to actually alter that sense of? Because that's a mindset around I'm going to serve the needs of present me as opposed to future me. So how do we get into that mindset?
Speaker 2Well, I wonder if the opportunity is for you and David to sit down together and say what do we think things are going to look like in five or ten years? How do we want to be doing things? How many ski trips do you want to be doing? How? Yeah, you know how we. What other goals have we got in mind? Or ideas, and what kind of money do we need for that?
Speaker 2and I actually think it's a nice way of working backwards, to saying, well, to get there right, we need to make some decisions now, and if that means every tax refund or commercial uh money gets set aside and invested. Because you think what I'm trying to do is create an income stream that is independent of requiring me to show up every day, does that make sense?
Speaker 1So what I'm?
Speaker 2saying, if the $1,000 over there earns me $5 or $50 a year in interest income, then that would be better than me having to earn that extra 50 dollars or whatever it is it's? A very basic. So you're in your.
Speaker 1So what you're saying is, if people are listening and they are um sort of- trying to get into it if they're cavalier and propagate and whatever. Yeah, they've got to say to themselves where do I want to be in five years? Is that the trick?
Speaker 2I think that's the easiest way, because that that I've found that easiest to engage myself, because it's like if I want to have a new car, let's say you want a new car. How are you going to get that? Well there's two ways you can go and lease one today, but the problem with leasing a new car is that means more money's going out that front door every month, every week, setting you further away from perhaps where you might really want to end up with, which is owning a car outright down the track so how can you?
Speaker 2I think it's about getting the balance right with all of the choices you make around discretionary spending. So holidays entertainment you have to make a choice. Is it theis vuitton handbag or is it, you know, the holiday? Yeah, or you could just go to bali and get a fake louis vuitton yes, you could, and the question is do you go to bali now or do you go in two years and have that money being invested?
Speaker 2for you now earning a proper return. Yes, which is supplementing your. I'm trying to add to your income, not take away from it, but twofold.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Actually thinking more before the money goes out the door first yeah, and the second one is when the money's coming in, how am I going to deploy that and what's the best way to deploy?
Speaker 1it and I'm just watching my own brain function as you're saying it.
Speaker 2Yeah, I can see the breaks and the squeals going on in the background. Yeah, yeah and they're going.
Speaker 1no, I don't want to do it.
Speaker 2I don't yeah, and I think that's interesting because the other thing is, if you came I talked about money stories with you when you arrived today. And one of the really interesting things is when you talked about you and Dave were starting out as actors. But if we go back to what it was like for you as a child growing up, yeah, so up yeah.
Speaker 2So I think money stories are really interesting because, whether you came from a family that were frugal or spend thrifts, really interesting how that might influence you as an adult as well did you find were your parents pretty laissez-faire about money when? You're growing up, so you've adopted that lifestyle 100 yeah it's like anything else.
Navigating Intuition and Critical Thinking
Speaker 1It's like the early, the early imprints of our childhoods in so many contexts have such a profound effect on everything on our financial habits, on our, on our relationships, on on our self-esteem, on everything. And I I think we do go through life mostly unless we really apply ourselves to um, develop some critical thinking skills. I think we just pretty much just plot along going. This feels okay at the moment and I can feel it in myself. There's a an almost childlike um desire I know I was joking before, but to stick your fingers in the ear because I can feel the anxiety of I will have to restrain myself, yes, and there is an attendant anxiety with that, and David and I are doing this really interesting stuff at the moment around acceptance, commitment, therapy and so much of our lives we spend in experiential avoidance. Oh, yes, right, just avoiding anything that is uncomfortable, and there's a problem with that, because that's actually what we've created.
Speaker 2That's a generation of kids now.
Speaker 1Massive.
Speaker 2You know where we took away the gold, like we took away the awards. Everyone's a winner, baby kind of you know, yes, all that. The discomfort we are now uncomfortable with discomfort everyone's a winner. Baby kind of yes, all that. The discomfort.
Speaker 1We are now uncomfortable with discomfort.
Speaker 2There's no winners and losers anymore. Yeah, and there probably needs to be.
Speaker 1And, if you don't mind me bringing it up, that we just spoke about the passing of your parents. Yes, is that okay if I bring that up? Yes, it is. And how, the grief that we feel, which is very uncomfortable, but it is only a measure of the love that you felt for them. Yes, and you can't have that grief without having first had love. That's so true, right? But yet we've got this. I want to be happy. I've got to be comfortable, happy. How many parents have said to me I just want my child to be happy. I've got to be comfortable, happy. How many parents have said to me I just want my child to be happy. No, you want your child to have purpose.
Speaker 2Yes, I think we've got a little bit wrong and I'll argue strongly that our kids are all in that demographic where we wanted them to be happy and I can see the error of our ways with respect to that. It's kind of like the tough times or the hard luck thing hasn't so much happened. It's a little bit tricky to try and work out how you're going to reverse that.
Speaker 1Yeah, it is tricky. The very interesting thing about our own children is David and I both come from this, you know creative sort of acting background. Both of our children are lawyers.
Speaker 2Oh, I love that, and you know what was really interesting when I was talking about money stories and where you come from, some people either go the same way, which sounds like yourself and David have your kids have gone. Uh-uh, this laissez-faire thing not for us, no way.
Speaker 1I think that's fantastic everyone's always like how come you've got two lawyers for children. We're like, well, I reckon they looked at us and went.
Speaker 2I don't want to have a life like that. It has to happen.
Speaker 1I think every second generation sort of swings and yet we you know, because, because we moved from being jobbing actors to having a communication consultancy um, they actually had a very nice upbringing, you know we had a nice big house and we had you know, we had cars and we had lots of overseas trips. They had a lovely time, but I think there was a part of both of them where they knuckled down. They went to uni, they did science and law degrees and now they're both lawyers.
Speaker 2And I do think in part it is a reactivity to who we are and we're all very close, we get on brilliantly, we have a great time, but it's interesting well, it's a bit like the yin and the yang, but but actually coming back to your point, because I said I, I do meet a lot of people like you who, literally, because I say there's the three biggest money mistakes, number one is putting your head in the sand yeah, right and if you look at it perhaps a different way and I often go to the perhaps the negative, which is if you think about financial independence.
Speaker 2How do you become financially independent? It's by understanding where your money goes yeah and if there's, I understand it to reduce my anxiety about not knowing yeah that level of uncertainty by knowing and I think I actually believe it's very powerful, and also I guess I've been in situations having, yes, just lost mum and dad like I've been. Um, I was there, I gave them, I was their financial advisor, their account, always helped them out with money stuff. They weren't great with money, my parents, but actually they relied on me.
Speaker 1Yes, I've complete. They had a business I helped run it.
Speaker 2It was just that interesting, natural, interesting.
Speaker 1and you're right from the start when you're answering that curly phone. Absolutely, and my sister's not too different.
Speaker 2I mean she runs her own business, not finance-minded at all, but very close to the numbers, so it's kind of interesting.
Speaker 1Really interesting, isn't it?
Speaker 2Yeah, and I think but you know, the difference is knowing where things are, knowing who owns assets, knowing where the money's coming in, where it's not, what you're saving for. All those things actually can be really empowering, and I think they're incredibly valuable in relationships because you're on the same track All the decisions you make, whether it's let's open a new business, let's set up a podcasting studio, let's go overseas for three months, all of those things. They sound like a lot of fun, but there is a financial element to them.
Speaker 2Yeah and that's what I that's what I try and draw people back to, to help them own it a little bit better. And I think if something goes wrong in your life, if somebody gets sick, somebody dies, somebody gets divorced, you need to know this stuff.
Speaker 1100, it's preservation yeah, it's for sure there's interesting in relation to women that women are constantly told that their intuitive response is king. Now, your intuition is not some magical spiritual thing, it's just another brain function and your intuition is simply a fancy word for memory. So I might have an intuitive response, that which I often do, that I really want to buy that because it's going to look really nice and, the thing is, it feels right.
Speaker 1So if you tested my gut at that moment, my gut, would be like yeah do that because that's going to look so nice on you now that intuition is absolutely errant. It's not right. Sometimes your intuition is perfect, like you said, danger perfect. Sometimes you meet someone, you get a bad feeling. Maybe you're right, maybe you're wrong, who knows? But this notion that our feeling state should be the arbiter of what we do is not correct.
Speaker 2Our feelings can really lead us astray well, it's interesting because I've been listening to podcasts recently a little bit talking about intuition and drawing that out that's quite.
Speaker 1Who have you been listening to?
Speaker 2not me no, but just shut that podcast down, jackie. Thank you, that's okay well, I well, I'm actually the last person I had to talk about. It was peter crone talking about intuition in the last week. Anyway, it might have been an old interview too. Uh, but thinking about dopamine having that impact on you too when you're shopping, because I think that's something that we all rely on.
Speaker 1How good is it? It?
Speaker 2is it's fantastic?
Speaker 1look, you know, dan Daniel Kahneman Thinking Fast and Slow yes. You know, really there's the quick and the slow and that quick intuitive feeling you get. I'm sorry, but I just see this again and again and again, especially, it leeches into this sort of spiritual area of you know. Just really plug intuition, intuition, no plug into your critical thinking, because what you're talking about is critical thinking yeah, um, it's practical too, right like, at the end of the day, what? You're talking about is awesome, practical, brilliant advice.
Speaker 2Our intuition around it is what will lead us to make the wrong yeah, the intuition is often where the trouble comes, often where the trouble comes in all the trouble.
Speaker 1Yeah, how many relationships did you have when you, when you're like, oh, he's so nice.
Speaker 2Well, you know it's funny you say that when I grew up I thought you're just supposed to get married and have kids, so I did that. It was like hang on a minute hang on here, hang on yeah I need some more experience with this thing.
Speaker 1Yeah, um harry know right, harry, how long has that been? 41 minutes, that went really quickly, didn't it?
Speaker 2I know we were having a blast. Yeah, maybe you can come on again. I'd love to. Oh, awesome, so that was, and maybe we get some questions where we can really help people out too. Oh yes, do you have one? Do you have?
Speaker 1one. If anybody would like to send a question to Jackie about money not me, do not send me a question. Send it to Jackie. Jackie will come on again and we will do another episode. Is that cool? That'd be awesome. That is so cool. So, because we've covered a lot of ground, didn't we?
Speaker 2Yeah, we've probably left people thinking now.
Speaker 1Right.
Speaker 2What are my key takeaways from today, five years in the future?
Speaker 1That's the best start. Be probably left people thinking now, right, what am I? What are my key takeaways from today, five years in the future?
Speaker 2that's the, that's the best start. Be accountable financially to yourself.
Speaker 1Recognize that your brain thinks about yourself in the future as a stranger and that society, unfortunately, being the patriarchal structure that is, often lends men more financial freedom than women, and we have to actually rebalance that absolutely. Yeah, awesome, jackie, lovely to meet you, love your apartment. Thank you, rusty. Yeah, he's done. I just want to say at this point and we're going to get a photo he's dead asleep he is so rude he may have heard some of this wisdom before.
Speaker 1Yeah, rusty's bored, yeah rusty doesn't want to hear it. Rusty hasn't saved for his future. Has he been putting schmackos aside for him in five?
Speaker 2greenies. He knows where the greenies come from, don't worry yeah um, so thank you so much.
Speaker 1Thank you, harry. Yes, thanks, harry. Thank you, harry. Thanks very much listeners. Hope you're having a lovely day and that is farewell from me, annie McCubbin See you.
Speaker 1Bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think.
Empowering Women Through Critical Thinking
Speaker 1And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
