What happened to Kat!

Kat McLeod takes us on an incredible journey from skepticism to empowerment as she transforms her asthma management through herbal remedies. At just 21, she was faced with the daunting decision of using steroids, a choice she was determined to avoid. Discover how Kat's path led her to an alternative solution that not only changed her routine and activity levels but gave her a new lease on life

Transcript

Speaker 1 0:00

You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur, jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome to this week's episode of the why Smart Women Women podcast.

Speaker 1 1:01

This week, I am talking to someone from my skeptical community who I know her by the name Kat Mac. Her actual name is Kat McLeod and she is talking to us today from Alberta. Is that right? Alberta, canada? Yes, and what's the temperature there today, kat? It's a balmy minus 11. Yeah, okay, yeah, right, and you were apparently out in your hot tub in the in the in a swimming costume with the snow coming down. Is that right?

Speaker 2 1:34

Yeah, I do that every day, even when it's like minus 40.

Speaker 1 1:38

Minus 40? It's to minus 40?.

Speaker 2 1:42

It gets colder than minus 40. I'm in northern Alberta, northern Alberta, where it gets to minus 40? It gets colder than minus 40.

Speaker 1 1:47

I'm in northern Alberta, northern Alberta where it gets to minus 40 and you go outside in that.

Speaker 2 1:55

We have to go to work in that.

Speaker 1 1:57

Wow. You know that we become hysterical in Sydney when it gets down to like 12 degrees. Everyone's in like massive puffer jackets and scarves and beanies, all clustering inside near the heater because it's so freezing. We're so pathetic over here in Australia, so pathetic.

Speaker 2 2:19

But you see, if it was plus 40, I would be a melted puddle.

Speaker 1 2:24

I cannot cope, cope, okay. So it was 40. The other day it was 40 here and um, boiling, stinking hot. We all went down for a swim, because I'm on the northern beaches um part of Sydney all went down for a swim and then this is what happens in Sydney boiling, boiling, boiling hot, and then about four or five o'clock in the afternoon, you get this massive storm and we had hail and wind and it was really dramatic and then the temperature dropped 16 degrees in like half an hour. Oh, I love that, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's dramatic, it's really good.

Speaker 2 2:59

I love that. Like where I am, we always have a saying which is a total lie in the winter, but um, in three other seasons we say if you don't like the weather in Alberta, wait five minutes, it'll change, because we can have, you know, snow and rain and sunshine and heat, and it can drop 20 degrees in an hour. That's just Alberta weatherta weather.

Speaker 1 3:23

Yeah, it's like melbourne. Melbourne is actually four seasons in one day. Anyway, we could go on about. Yeah, we could. Pat has a very interesting story to tell us about supplements. Um, so I haven't heard the story, the whole story. So I'm hearing this for the first time and so you'll have to excuse me if I ask questions, etc, etc. Is that cool? Ask all the questions you want. So, kat Mac, what happened with you and supplements?

Speaker 2 4:01

Well, I'll try and give the short version of what happened, because what really happened? I could talk for an hour and I know your podcast is not that long but short version is and I know you have experience with herbal remedies and stuff too, so I do this triggers you at all. Yeah, I'll lie down. I'm good, let me know. Okay, I'll try not to get too graphic. Okay, get graphic. When I was 21, I my gp. My doctor wanted to put me on steroid for my asthma oh yeah, me too I'm asthmatic too.

Speaker 2 4:36

Hey, high five, hey awesome look at us go, yeah, and I had seen steroids cut my grandmother's life short, so I really didn't want to go that route. Yeah, so a friend of my mother's suggested that I see a herbalist. She'd been seeing him for 10 years, he was the biggest herbalist in my city and so I went. I thought what the heck right, what the the heck? I was 20 years old. Yeah, what do you know? Nothing, right, right, I went and he took my, my pulse and different points on my wrist and he was telling me all kinds of stuff and I was just blown away.

Speaker 2 5:16

Yeah, and he gave me this herbal concoction. It was just a bag full of goo that stank, and I was supposed to brew this up and drink it. Yeah, multiple times a day. You, you know the story. Right, like Chinese herbs, right? Yeah, absolutely. And it was so revolting. I, I could not do this. It was gross. So I, I went back and so he, he prescribed. What prescribed he? He, he recommended that I take um capsules instead, and I'm like I can swallow a capsule, that's not a problem.

Speaker 2 5:53

Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah and that began my adventure with a product called asthma one. What, what is it? Asthma one w-a-n, so asthma the disease, and then w-a-n. It's also known as tricep act. And so I was taking it and, for the first time in my life, my asthma was not an issue. I was working out seven days a week, two hours a day. I was just like mind blown. I was so ecstatic that this was working so well. Right, but I was getting some weird symptoms and I couldn't really figure out what was happening. Like I lost some mobility in my neck, I was getting strange bruises and marks all over my body and I was putting on a lot of weight and I'm not talking muscle mass.

Speaker 2 6:43

Okay, and you're exercising two hours a day, yes, and I was eating low-cal, under 30 grams of fat a day, and I'm like what is going on here? Oh my God.

Speaker 2 6:55

So I went to after like four or five months. I went to my doctor and she's like, well, what's going on? And I'm like this is what's happening. And she's like, okay's going on. And I'm like this is what's happening. And she's like, okay, well, I'll send you for a round of tests, but why don't you just stop taking the herb and see what happens? And I'm like, why? Because it's allowing me to work out and, you know, do all this other stuff, like just to see. I'm like, well, that's not a good enough reason for me, honey. I've been questioning authority my whole life, yeah yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 7:26

So we did a battery of tests, Couldn't figure out what was wrong, and this kicked off five and a half months of me going two to three times a week to various specialists getting biopsies blood work done.

Speaker 1 7:39

It was just a nightmare during this period, had your asthma actually improved? Oh, I didn't have asthma.

Speaker 2 7:48

It was a mystery. Like it was gone. I could work out for two hours of cardio not have any breathing problems and you had exercise induced asthma. I had like cold weather induced asthma exercise, like, pretty much, if I look the wrong way slightly, I'm going to have an asthma attack, right? Yeah, me too Didn't have to use my inhaler at all and I'm like okay well, what's going on?

Speaker 1 8:14

Well, no wonder you didn't want to go off the herbs, right.

Speaker 2 8:16

Right, right. So me being the curious kind of gal that I am, curiosity kills cats.

Speaker 2 8:23

Your cat's still alive though, right, yeah, I'm still here. We're skipping ahead of the story. I started reading medical journals about like what could be going on, because I even was part of um, a medical teaching session where 52 physicians from all over the world like Asia Harvard they came and they looked at all the unique cases. But, let's face it, we're the freak cases. Yeah, nobody could figure out what was going on with me and you're still taking the herbs, because Still taking the herbs?

Speaker 1 8:57

And did anybody else say to you during that stop taking the herbs, or just no?

Speaker 2 9:02

no, just my GP, and I'm like well, well, give me a good reason and I will, but just to see what happens isn't a good enough reason for me.

Speaker 2 9:09

Sure, yeah, yeah yeah, right so I, I start reading medical textbooks yeah, because I work at a university and I have access to those kinds of libraries. Yeah, and I I look in and I'm like, I, I think this is what I have. It's called Cushing disease yeah, and I'm like I was going to see a new endocrinologist and I walk in and I'm like, hey, do you think this is what I have? And he's like, well, according to the labs that you did last week, yeah, it's exactly what you have. I'm like, oh, okay, but Cushing's is normally caused by like adrenal tumors. But Cushing's is normally caused by like adrenal tumors.

Speaker 2 9:45

And I didn't have, yeah, cancer in your adrenal glands. Oh, and I didn't have cancer, uh-huh. So they couldn't figure out what was going on. So what I actually had was called Cushing's syndrome, because it wasn't caused from cancer, uh-huh. And so still more tests, more tests, on board with this at this point. But one day that endocrinologist was talking to a pediatric specialist over lunch and he had three kids who all had freaky, weird symptoms, but not the same as each other. I had all of their symptoms, so I was the key.

Speaker 1 10:23

The pediatrician had three children and his children had a range of symptoms and you were manifesting all of them.

Speaker 2 10:31

All of them.

Speaker 1 10:32

And what were they, besides the weight gain and the what else?

Speaker 2 10:36

It was like limited mobility in my neck, easy bruising, scarring just oh yeah, terrible scarring, just just oh yeah, terrible scarring. So my doctor calls me and says, hey, any chance you have any of that herb that we could test? Because it turns out the kids were taking the herb too, only on a much lower dose. Wow, and I worked across the street from the hospital where the doctor works, so I ran it over on my coffee break and it turns out the herb I was taking had a hidden ingredient in it Steroid. It was not on the packaging, right, Because I read up. I forgot to mention that I did read up on everything I was taking and how it might interact with each other. I did make that much of an informed decision. But it had cow gallstones in it.

Speaker 1 11:29

I'm sorry it had what. Yeah cow gallstones.

Speaker 2 11:33

Cow gallstones and they were acting like a cortical steroid 12 times more potent than prednisone, and I was taking nine a day, or the equivalent of 108 prednisone a day.

Speaker 1 11:49

Oh, my God, almighty, right 108. Do you know I panic if I have to take a quarter of one Mm-hmm. Have to take a quarter of one when I got the flu last winter, which triggered by asthma and um, the doctor was like we're not getting better here. You're going to have to go back on oral prednisone, which, of course, I hate we all do we all hate it, right?

Speaker 1 12:17

I was in a panic about it because I was on for a fortnight, a quarter of one tablet and you were taking the equivalent of 108. Yeah, make some. So even though I was working out and eating well yeah, I gained about 50 kilos in 10 months.

Speaker 2 12:33

50, yeah, 110 pounds in those 10 months. And if I hadn't been working out two hours a day, seven days a week and eating so well, I probably would have gained twice that much. Holy, doctors were shocked that I was still alive, and that's my story. Well, that's the beginning part of the story anyway.

Speaker 2 12:56

Oh my god they had no idea how to wean me off these herbs, because they don't know how to wean somebody off 108 prednisone. So I almost died a couple of times and I was not supposed to live past 30, and yeah, I mean, the story goes on and on, but you keep telling me the story.

Speaker 1 13:15

So you, they discover that you've been ingesting cow gallstones and that this was equivalent to 108, or, in in my dosage, 432 tablets a day, because that's what I was taking on, the equivalent of a quarter of one so. And then you became very, very ill and they had to yeah of course you have to do even a short reducing dose. You've got to reduce it slowly, right you go, and they.

Speaker 2 13:41

They were hoping that I wouldn't because you know, if you come off steroids too quickly it can be very, very dangerous. Right now I know when you come off extremely high doses of steroids it's very, very dangerous, and so that's why I I had some issues but I was under medical care and you know, little little side note here, I'm assuming that the kids were all fine because they were on a lower dose and they got weaned off okay, because that's what actually happened to my sister, who is also taking a lower dose than me of the same herb.

Speaker 1 14:12

What happened to her?

Speaker 2 14:13

Well, we were able to wean her off and she has no lasting effects, unlike me, I have tons of lasting effects.

Speaker 1 14:20

What are those lasting effects?

Speaker 2 14:20

unlike me, I have tons of lasting effects. What are those lasting effects? Well, I don't produce adrenaline because my adrenal glands are permanently damaged.

Speaker 1 14:32

Oh, you know what the alt-med crowd would say to you? That you've got adrenal fatigue. Oh yeah, I love adrenal fatigue. They love, love adrenal fatigue.

Speaker 2 14:41

I love adrenal fatigue my adrenals be dead almost yours aren't just having a lie down yours, that's right mine are in a coma, but because of that I can't drive right, because it would be like I was driving drunk. You can't drive a car because I don't have the reaction time, because when something bad happens on the road you need that shot of adrenaline to get you out of the situation right. And I don't have that mentally, I do physically. I don't?

Speaker 1 15:15

you're certainly super sharp mentally, right? Oh yeah, no, you can't drive a car far out. This is so bad and this is all under the mantle and I need to say this right up front before we keep going is that this is all under the umbrella of? Supplements are fine for you because they're natural.

Speaker 2 15:43

Oh, I know I fell for the ancient fallacy and the all natural fallacy so hard, yeah. But my big thing like people were like, well, why don't you sue the guy? And it's because I didn't know at the time. My one ignorance was I didn't know that health food and herbs weren't regulated in Canada. Yeah, and no idea. I thought it's Canada, everything's got to be safe.

Speaker 1 16:07

No, no, it's not, and this is my point and my, which is why I'm so thrilled to be talking to you because, um, I spend my life saying to people, honestly, it's a wonder I have any friends left because I'm so mad. It's like shut up, annie. I'm like you don't know what's in that.

Speaker 2 16:28

You don't know what's in well, and for me, what I did speak with a lawyer and and he's the one who said there's no regulations and all you could do was sue the federal government. I'm like, well, they're saying I'm not going to live that long, so what I did instead is I sue the federal government. I'm like, well, they're saying I'm not going to live that long, so what I did instead is I worked with the government and I got regulations put in place.

Speaker 1 16:47

So tell me what you did. I love that. I love you.

Speaker 2 16:51

Well, it's a very long and convoluted story, but basically I became like enraged, because you know I'm an angry redhead. Yeah, yeah, and ruin my health, yeah, yeah it destroyed me and you know I'm not going down without a fight, so I actually got my story out there.

Speaker 1 17:11

I how did you do that?

Speaker 2 17:12

I was very vocal. I spoke to the papers because I wanted people to be warned. I, everybody I ran into, whether it's co-workers, pharmacists, cashiers I would tell them all like this stuff's dangerous. And a lecturer at the university I work at said hey, will you come talk to my pharmacy students? I'm like yes, yes, yes I will, yes, will, and now.

Speaker 2 17:38

I am terrified about speaking in front of people, especially when my self-esteem was so very low, right, like because part of myself and part of my brain was still kicking myself really hard. For how could you be so dumb? How could you make?

Speaker 1 17:55

this mistake. It's just not true, is it? Because, as you said, and I'll just reiterate for the listeners, there's a number of fallacies that plug in really well to our cognitive flaws, and one is, and one of the biggest ones is, the appeal to nature fallacy, and that is if something is natural, it is good for you and um, if you take someone like, um, my favorite Gwyneth Paltrow and Goopy Gwen, and she's like I don't, um, I just don't touch anything that's not natural and has a chemical in it, I'm like, yeah, well, everything's got a chemical. You don't frame. Everything is chemicals, hello. And also, this notion of natural is so wrong. You know, brown arsenic, cancer, etc. It's all natural. And the same in australia is that our supplement industry, and it is huge, it's unregulated, um, and there's just the, the tga. They have it.

Speaker 1 19:06

Just just very, very recently we've discovered in australia that people are suffering from peripheral neuropathy, um, from b6 overdose, because I read about that. Yeah, is now hidden in everything, right? So you know protein shakes, um, everything, it's everywhere. So people have got this peripheral neuropathy because of it. Um, and then a few weeks ago, um, there's a, there's a um, cold and flu natural product. Uh, I'll put it. I'll put it in the show notes there to cut my board. It is um and that's also been making people really ill because it's unregulated, untested and you can just put anything in anything, but because it's got the banner of natural over the top, people are like it must be okay for me. And the other one, of course, is the appeal to nature, fallacy, appeal to the ancient fallacy, the ancient fallacy.

Speaker 2 20:03

This, I hear it. We've been doing it for hundreds of years. It's safe, it's work. No, it's a lie.

Speaker 1 20:09

It's a lie, Because let's just remember that you know, even 100 years ago our lifespan was nothing like it is now. The fact that it's ancient is a complete irrelevancy.

Speaker 2 20:21

anyway, do go on so you've got just as a little side. Yeah, it seems every time I go to tell my story publicly, yeah, something pops up in the news, and this is no exception today. Um, just like two hours ago, I was reading about protein powder. You know that you add into shakes and stuff especially popular with men. Yeah, yeah, 83% of the US market was tested recently, yeah, and 47% had levels of metal that exceeded the threshold allowable. Plant-based was worse than plant-based was worse than than whey. Chocolate flavor was four times worse than vanilla, and organic had three times the cadmium as whey and it's. I couldn't make this stuff up you can't make.

Speaker 1 21:20

Make it up. Armiforce. That's the drug I was thinking of, the Armiforce cold and flu. Take Armiforce, because you know what it does. It boosts your immune system. Oh, don't get me going on that. And I keep saying to people you don't actually want to boost your immune system, you don't want that.

Speaker 2 21:39

Scientists don't understand it. They don't understand it. They don't understand the ramifications of boosting any kinds of cells in your immune system. Because that's what it is it's a system. It's not just one thing, one thing. It's a huge system and they don't understand how to properly you know, bent, you know make beneficial changes to it. Yeah, so why would you take this? It's just like the whole echinacea craze, oh no echinacea Turmeric's very, very big.

Speaker 1 22:10

in here Is turmeric big there.

Speaker 2 22:14

Yeah, and one of my favorites is St John's wort.

Speaker 1 22:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah, which interacts with all sorts of medications. Do you know?

Speaker 2 22:21

how many different medications it interacts with. How many 595 known prescription drugs. Over 20 different drug classifications. So like antidepressants, antibiotics, birth control pills you don't want to surprise baby yeah, All kinds. 20 different drug categories. 595 known drug interactions.

Speaker 1 22:47

And yet we're. So, you know, because, for my sins, I follow all the cooker websites. I follow all the cookers here in Australia. Right, I have to so I can keep up with the frigging mad things that they're saying. So they're like um so anti big pharma, big pharma this and big pharma that not, and yet they're. Why aren't we anti? Um big vitamin, big supplement?

Speaker 2 23:13

I don't know, because it's under the banner of natural the whole health and wellness industry yeah, is worth just over six trillion dollars globally, and big pharma yeah, is worth just over like 1.3 trillion globally. So why big pharma and not big wellness? Um when? It's six times bigger.

Speaker 1 23:43

I don't know, and now I've lost your picture. Hang on, hello, we're back. We had a little moment there, but we're back now. And I just said to David during that brief break I said you shouldn't be having protein shakes and he said why? And I would like you to answer that, kat.

Speaker 3 24:01

Well, kat, I'm asking not for myself, but because I you know, my daughter is doing magnificent work with her exercise and her diet and she's doing the very best that she can to do what we're told to do at this time, you know, to build lean muscle mass and et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Speaker 1 24:23

Don't you also have protein shakes? He so does.

Speaker 3 24:30

Well, I had been influenced by the good example of my daughter and asked her if I might share some of her protein powder stash. But now I can feel the winds of change, because apparently you don't think that that's a very good idea.

Speaker 2 24:53

Well, I was just reading a study that came out earlier today, like nine hours ago, where 83% of the US market of the protein powders were tested recently. That's a lot. That's a lot. 47% exceeded the allowable amount of metal, and plant-based were worse than whey and they have much higher metal. Chocolate flavor has four times the amount of metals as the vanilla flavors Organic had three times the level of cadmium than weighted. So 50-50 shot that you're going to get a lot more metal than you're bargaining for when you're getting your protein powder.

Speaker 1 25:53

And what's wrong with metals?

Speaker 3 25:55

Because I want abs of steel. The metal is not going to give me those probably not.

Speaker 2 26:07

It's probably gonna like damage your liver and kidneys instead of giving you, like that, that six-pack that you're after so how do we get the six-pack without a protein shake or a protein bar? Well, first of all, why do you feel the need for a six pack? Because, honestly, if you can see the muscle, chances are you have too little body fat and you could be at risk of things like osteoporosis.

Speaker 2 26:35

You just want to see. That's my second crusade. My whole second crusade is getting society to stop their sick obsession with the term healthy. Yeah, because it's. It's a blanket term like wellness now, yeah, it's meaningless, except that it ostracizes a whole group of people and it makes people feel bad about themselves.

Speaker 3 27:00

100 yeah, so what you?

Speaker 2 27:02

want to do is you want to. You know, sleep well, eat a well-balanced diet, minimize your stress, have a good community. The important, boring things are what you want to focus on yeah, not getting a six-pack.

Speaker 1 27:18

It's like um. I did a podcast recently with um, not really, it was actually a while ago with edzard ernst and nick tiller. Nick tiller, I love nick tiller I love nick tiller nearly the most part.

Speaker 2 27:31

He did say something recently that annoyed me, but that's beside the point.

Speaker 3 27:35

Okay, we'll get back to that I say things that annoy any old yeah it's true, everything annoys me.

Speaker 1 27:41

It's true. Uh, rampant obsessive positivity nearly drives me insane anyway. So toxic positivity, shocking, shocking business. Anyway, he was saying that the um, the only, there are no hacks, there's no hacks, there is no hack. You can't hack getting fit and you can't hack your diet.

Speaker 2 28:03

You've just got to eat generally pretty well and move yeah, and you want to move about 150 minutes a week? Yeah, right, do you know fun fact, you can edit all this out later. Yeah, but fun fact, do you know the whole 10 000 steps a day? Yep, that's a marketing gimmick.

Speaker 1 28:22

Yeah.

Speaker 2 28:24

When did we Apple? Oh, no, no, no, from 1964. Yeah, when Japan was hosting the Olympics, they were putting out pedometers to increase people's activity, and there is some rumor I cannot validate this part but the Japanese character for 10,000 looks like a person walking or running, so they think that's why they arbitrarily pick 10,000. Oh, my God. And ever since then, people have been obsessing over getting their 10,000 steps, and, yes, companies like Fitbit and Apple Watch, they're all you know. Oh, get your 10,000 steps. It's an arbitrary, bloody number. Eight to six to 8,000 is a good range, but, honestly, what's your fitness level Like? Are you coming back from surgery? Are you suffering with long COVID? If so, maybe 3000 is the step you want to aim for. Do what's best for you. You challenge yourself, but don't make it so that you're injuring yourself. Yeah, you know, everything has to be changed and customized to the individual. Yeah, there's no quick fix. There's no magic pill. There's no, you know, gross green smoothie that's going to make this all happen for you gross green green smoothie From Goody Gwyneth.

Speaker 1 29:42

Why do you think, david, that? Why do, for instance, you? Because I've definitely in the past had protein shakes, but they make me feel sick, so I stopped having them. But why do you want more protein? It's an interesting notion, right?

Speaker 3 29:58

I mean you know, the thought process is that you're building muscle tissue. What do you build muscle tissue out of? These are the things that help you build that muscle tissue. I mean, I'm not saying that. I believe this simple explanation is true but that's the simple thought process that is available to us at the time.

Speaker 2 30:18

But why do you want to drink it instead of like just having a handful of cashews or something?

Speaker 3 30:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I mean okay again, I'm not defending the position, but I'll tell you what the that's what we want to hear.

Speaker 1 30:30

It's good.

Speaker 3 30:31

It's good the defence in the mind is that you know someone in a white coat you know worked out that you needed so much protein or the body can absorb so much protein to be used in building the body, and you'll get a you know much more precise and adequate dose if you have a commercial protein powder enhanced consumable and so there's a lot of people sorry, no, you go, you go a lot of people.

Speaker 2 31:06

They're like oh, I don't want to do like nuts or red meat or things like that because of the fat content. So that's why I ask, because some people are like, oh well, I will, I want to avoid that, so I'll just drink it chemically instead yeah, I mean, I think I think there's the convenience thing.

Speaker 3 31:25

you know that you'll get that, you'll pour it in and that'll take care of it. It's not so sweet you have to go and get the nuts. It's interesting about the you know the fat content thing, which is not something that bothers me terribly much. I mean, annie and I have an ongoing conversation around. I would prefer to drink full fat milk than light milk or skim milk. I don't drink skim but you say you know that I shouldn't have the fat Saturated fats.

Speaker 1 31:55

If you've got high cholesterol right and you're a little bit borderline on being pre-diabetic, you've got to watch saturated fats. That's just the truth of it. I have a full fat coffee in the day because I like it, but I drink light white at home. I just I don't. I just don't like the taste of yeah, you know but back to the fact of the way you know trying to get you to arbitrate this for us. Why take a bit of?

Speaker 3 32:19

cashews. Look, if I had a handful of cashews and I thought I was going to get the building blocks that I needed to rebuild the stuff that I shredded during the session in the gym, then I'd do the cashews. But I guess those are gaps in knowledge. You know how much is enough to. You know, feed a body that, on the other hand, you're stressing out through sport or weightlifting or something like that.

Speaker 1 32:44

Or a wash. The thing is, how do you work your way through the absolute sea of disinformation that's aimed at us by the wellness community. As you say, wellness and health, and that's what they're banking on. I know it's just too. That's perfect. That's what they're banking on.

Speaker 2 33:04

That's what they're banking on. That's what they're banking on. They want you to be so overwhelmed with information. Yeah, you, you're like, you know what. This is a quick, easy fix.

Speaker 1 33:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I get it, yeah, and.

Speaker 2 33:16

I have fallen prey to stuff like that in the past too. I you know. I'm not judging anyone here, I'm just questioning or thinking right Like why? Why do we do that? Why did we make that choice? Was it the best choice at the time or was it an easy choice?

Speaker 1 33:33

easy, easy, easy. I think. Yeah, as you say, we're obsessed with being well. We've now got the women don't want to look thin, they want to look strong. It's bullshit, it's all thin, it's just, it's just code for thin right absolutely yeah just like I'm sorry, like I'm single.

Speaker 2 33:50

So it's like when you go on dating apps and you see a guy who wants somebody who's fit and healthy no, he wants thin, he wants a skinny mini. He just doesn't want to say it.

Speaker 3 34:04

Sorry, david, you were going to say I guess I was going to sort of add to the repertoire of strategies that play on people's vulnerabilities as part of the marketing strategy, and one of them is that you're overwhelmed with some so much information that you really can't tell, and then eventually you sort of think oh, I'll trust the guy in the white coat and and he'll tell me what's right, um, so, so, so that's overwhelmed. But it occurs to me also that human beings are impatient, um, and and so that's why the quick fix is a pick.

Speaker 2 34:47

Absolutely.

Speaker 3 34:48

You know, I'm going on a trip in a couple of weeks' time. I'm going to be skiing. I don't have three months to build up the strength in my legs and my knees. I have to have it done quickly. So the thought process is you know, I'll smash myself in the gym and then I will take, you know, protein powder. You know I'll up my protein and therefore I will have that muscle development done quickly. And so what do we do? We're counselling patients.

Speaker 1 35:28

Counselling? Yeah, counselling, oh I. Oh, I thought you meant you're counseling. You've got patients and you're okay, are you okay? Yes, thanks for asking how are your knees I'm impatient.

Speaker 2 35:38

You have to remember too. You have to work on the flexibility of you know all the ligaments in your knee joints and around your ankles. You have to work on your core strength. I've skied, I know these. You're not going to just, you know, be able to say I've not been on skis in 20 years and then go down a mountain. I mean you can probably go on your butt such a canadian well, I could say else, but I'm trying not to swear. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3 36:05

No, no, no. Just tell me what you say on your ass.

Speaker 2 36:08

Yeah, that's what I was going to say On your ass.

Speaker 3 36:11

Yeah, on your ass.

Speaker 1 36:13

I think we are. I was saying to Melanie Tracett King you know, Melanie, I love her so much. I love Melanie too. She's been on and we presented at the same conference and I was saying to her that we sceptics, we feel, I just feel like we're just lone voices. We're just standing, you know, in the middle of this absolute torrent of wellness, alt-med, pseudosciencecience, and it's these lone voices trying to go. It's not true. It's not true. The narrative is not true. But it's so difficult to get the pointy gone with that point across that everybody hating you right well for me when it comes to like to go full circle back to herbal stuff.

Speaker 2 37:04

Yeah, I don't care if people hate me. If I can prevent anyone from going through the trauma that I went through, go ahead and you know, hate me or die angry about it.

Speaker 2 37:12

One of the two, you know it's up to you yeah, yeah, but are you still unwell from that? Oh yeah, I will have permanent consequences to my health because of taking herbs like I say. I should have been dead by the time I was 30. That's what the doctor said you mind me asking how old you are now over 30, only a day or two, oh only a day or two, decades, you know, in there yeah, yeah, well, you've done well, but you've still got the consequences.

Speaker 2 37:42

yeah, yeah, yeah, well when they told me, like I was 22, 23, when they said, okay, your adrenal glands are never going to come back, get your affairs in order, you're never going to be able to work and chances are you won't see your 30th birthday. Well, I've never stopped working and I saw my 30th birthday, thank you very kindly. And I told them right then and there. When they said that to me, I said I'm gonna be 80 and dancing on your grave. Okay, good, go, because I'm a stubborn redhead and I will tell you when I'm good and ready to check out now. Have I almost died several times? Absolutely right, yeah, but every single time I'm like, okay, I'm making the commitment here and now to stay on this planet and I'm going to keep going.

Speaker 2 38:26

Like I have thyroid issues, my, like I say, my adrenals are shot. I developed fibromyalgia. I've got all kinds of things. I collect rare diseases, like they're trading cards not as fun as you'd think, interesting, but not as fun as you think. And I'm just. You know, I'm stubborn. I'm going to stick around and I'm going to be that loud voice. I'm also a member of the guerrilla skeptics of Wikipedia. Okay, yep, yep, yep, yep.

Speaker 2 38:51

I don't know if you've heard of them, but yes, I have.

Speaker 2 38:53

So I'm going on and I'm making sure that any alt med, any woo that's on Wikipedia either is, you know, taken down or there's a warning on it, to say, hey, this isn't proven. Because I know I am just a lone voice and I try and be a very loud voice. I put my story out there all the time it was in skeptical inquirer. Yeah, you know, I try and get it out there because I'm not alone and, like I said, every time I go to tell my story publicly I hear other dangers that are popping up, I hear other horror stories. I have people come up to me after and go, wow, I think that's what killed my mom, you know cause the doctors didn't know what was wrong with her, but she was taking an awful lot of ultimate, you know. And yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 2 39:43

So I should be dead. Yeah, no doubt about it. Like I know, cats get nine lives, and I stopped counting when I you know checked out on my ninth one. Yeah, I'm still here, yeah, and so I'm using my voice for all of the people that aren't here.

Speaker 1 39:58

Yep, yeah, 100%, and I should be dead from asthma. I was very, very close to. Did you want to say something before I tell my asthmatic, annoying Batiaco story?

Speaker 3 40:08

I should be dead from protein powder.

Speaker 2 40:11

Oh gosh, I hope not. I mean, just be nice to your liver and kidneys for a little while On that.

Speaker 3 40:18

I think I'm going to go get a glass of water.

Speaker 1 40:20

Yeah, Chris, just don't put me down. Isn't that lovely? It's just beautiful, David.

Speaker 3 40:24

You guys keep going.

Speaker 1 40:32

Can chris? Just don't put that lovely, it's just beautiful. David, you guys keep going. Can you make me tea please? I'm desperate, of course, just as long as it's not green tea no, I wouldn't touch green tea with a hand.

Speaker 2 40:36

But you tell me why because it's bad for you, isn't it? Yeah, it's linked to liver toxicity, that's all nothing serious, yeah, yeah, no, but A little cirrhosis between friends, what's you know?

Speaker 1 40:46

Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's natural and it's green, and green is like Kermit and nature. And what could be bad with Kermit and nature, kat? What could be bad? What could be bad? I've got to tell you two things. One and I've already spoken to this with Melanie is that I think I told you last winter I had terrible influenza A which triggered my asthma, and I go to a gym. It's a very you know, I've got this great network of friends. I really love it. Everyone's friendly.

Speaker 1 41:20

And there was a guy there who was talking about how he had had cured his asthma. He was online doing this. He'd cured his asthma by, uh, this special breathing technique. And you heard about butyako, yes, yeah, and he no longer had asthma and you could actually just cure your asthma with this breathing technique. And I said online well, just about that, if I hadn't had access to steroids and puffers and antibiotics, I would be dead. And there's absolutely zip evidence that Batiaco can cure asthma. But it comes under the. It's natural. What could be more natural than just redoing your breathing Right? And then people joined in and they were like, oh yeah, my doctor just wanted to give me drugs for my asthma. Okay, did, wow, did they?

Speaker 2 42:27

it's really terrible it's not lost on me that I didn't want to take steroids for my asthma. Of course, I ended up taking 108 prednisone a day yeah, that's right, exactly.

Speaker 1 42:40

Talk about irony, right like absolutely absolutely pseudoscience.

Speaker 2 42:45

Appeals to people, especially vulnerable people, and women are gaslit by medical professionals all the time. Our pain is not taken seriously. Everything's down to depression or weight, yep, or both, and so you get fed up and you look for other answers and they're kind and they listen, right, and they listen to you and you're like oh well, what, what could the harm be? You're not actually really considering what the harm could be I spent hundreds of dollars destroying my health yeah, oh, it's expensive.

Speaker 1 43:21

And then they're, they're, they're managing your energies and raising and lowering your vibrations and there's a certain point in your body where your pulse isn't right and that's not right and this is not right. And oh my god. But they're kind and they listen, though I've got to say in defense of our medical system, we've got very, very good medical system here in australia and my lovely general practitioner when I was very sick with the flu last year he rang me every day how are we going, annie, are we winning? And I said to him can I please stay on the prednisone, even though it's not good for me? Because as soon as I went off it the wheeze came back and he was like no, you can't, because it's lowering your immune system.

Speaker 1 44:02

So we actually can't do that, we're going to up something else. So he you know, young guy, general practitioner, super interested, managed it perfectly. But the narrative is, you know, doctors are just in the pocket of big pharma and they push stuff well sometimes, and you know, sometimes, like anything else, you know they're just doing their job and most doctors I know are just trying to do their job and they do yeah, like for me, the endocrinologist who ended up um telling me that I had Cushing's yeah.

Speaker 2 44:35

I saw him every six months for like two decades until he retired, and every time I would see him I'm like so can we bump these appointments to once a year?

Speaker 2 44:47

yeah, no and I swear it was because he was convinced I was gonna pop my cogs at any time and every six months he would know if I was still alive. But I mean, he would call me if he got test results, um, from his son's hockey game. He'd be like, hey, cat, are you doing? I'm like what is going on in the background? I'm at my kid's hockey game. He'd be like, hey, cat, are you like what is going on in the background? Oh, I'm at my kid's hockey game. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he he cared and I could reach out to him with a question and get an answer, but a lot of people can't. And I had sworn off seeing all other doctors because so many of them had gas lit me that I was just fed up, yeah, but I always would see him because he treated me with respect and even when we disagreed about some things, we did it like adults. You know, we could have a good, productive conversation about things.

Speaker 1 45:39

Yeah, there's certainly that infantilizing. That can happen, I think, with the medical profession. But again, I'd rather be infantilised with someone that had done training, medical training than infantilised by someone that had done a weekend course in herbalism.

Speaker 3 45:58

You want to hear this.

Speaker 1 45:59

I got an email a couple of days ago from an American woman. Hi, annie, I'm just doing her accent because I was wondering if I could be on your podcast. I am a specialist in supplements and other products and I could be your concierge for your listeners on supplements and health. And I'm, like I know, back and I said have you actually listened to my podcast? Have you Right? Do you think Maybe? And I'm going to say to her sure, come on if you like. But I'm going to be peppering you with where's the evidence? Yeah Right, this is completely unregulated, this is untestedested. How do we know what's in it? Because you can't, you cannot, trust the label of a supplement or vitamin, can you? Is that right cat? You can't trust the label.

Speaker 2 46:57

It depends on the country that you're in. The european union has got the best regulations. They're not perfect by any stretch, but they have the best, not great. Canada and Australia are similar.

Speaker 1 47:13

The US have nothing Absolutely nothing, and that's going to get worse, isn't it?

Speaker 2 47:16

Oh, that's going to get so much worse With JFK. So you know RFK, rfk.

Speaker 1 47:21

Jesus.

Speaker 2 47:22

Christ Annie.

Speaker 1 47:24

You're testing me, that's all. You were just testing me, yeah that's right.

Speaker 2 47:27

That wasn't my mistake. So yeah, if this American woman thinks she's going to come and sell, you know, globally her crap. Chances are it could be illegal for it to be imported into some countries Right Based on. You know the regulations that have been put in place by cranky people like me.

Speaker 1 47:45

Well, our TGA simply does not have the time our Therapeutics Goods Administration to be testing all the products, which is why you know they come up with. Armiforce is the problem. Vitamin B6 is the problem or is it 12? Six or 12? I can't remember Six. I think Six. But I've moved recently into this apartment in DY and just across the road from my apartment I live above a Woolworths in a bottle shop. It's awesome, I love it so much. Anyway, across the road, is this chemist, whole food, natural? And honestly, I had to go and fill a script. I've got sinusitis and antibiotics and I had to go and fill a script and I could. I had to walk down the aisle, I needed horse blinkers not to look at the crap and this is under the mantle of a pharmacy, so it comes under pharmacy. So everyone's like oh, this must be right.

Speaker 2 48:37

No, it's not right, and that is a real problem. That is global, where you will have things like homeopathy packaged like drugs right next to like children's cold medicine yep and how do you tell the difference? If you don't actually see the little homeopathy notice on one of them, you may go oh you know I'll take this, but I could. And then you get home and you're like homeopathy, what's homeopathy?

Speaker 1 49:11

yeah, do you want to explain to us? I mean, I'm all over homeopathy, but I'm always happy for anybody to talk about their description of homeopathy what is homeopathy? Kat homeopathy?

Speaker 2 49:21

yes is um, I'll only use polite words. It's the belief in that if you take something and dilute it greatly, it can cure, like like cures, like. So if you have an upset stomach and you take like arsenic because that'll make you sick, um, but it's really really, really diluted. Usually 10 to the power of 23 is the mathematical equation for the dilution. But you don't just dilute it, you also sucked it while it's in its little test tube. So you tap it because that makes the magic happen. Yeah, and water has memory, which is why you know, sometimes my brain's like dinosaur poo. Yeah, clearly, because I'm, you know 80 water or something. Yeah, yeah, you just dilute it, dilute it, dilute it till it's nothing but sugar, water or sugar, and then you put it in a chemist next to somebody actual.

Speaker 2 50:26

You know drugs that have been proven and to be effective yep, absolutely, um and past drug identification, you know, yeah, exactly all kinds of regulations and yeah, exactly, and somebody recently one of the cookers.

Speaker 1 50:40

for anybody who's listening, who doesn't understand the term cooker, a cooker is a conspiracy theorist and they're generally heavily involved in pseudoscience and specifically alt-med, which is alternative medicine, which is nonsense, because you've got medicine, or nonsense, but anyway. And this woman was homeopathically giving her children vaccines for measles and you know we've now got outbreaks. Right, have you got them there? Yes, great.

Speaker 2 51:16

Yeah, we don't have huge outbreaks like they're having in America, but yeah, measles is on the rise here too.

Speaker 1 51:22

That's great because of the idiots, and how easy it is. How easy it is to fool people. Oh my God, we could go on and on.

Speaker 2 51:30

We could I mean we could talk for all weekend really. We could just live stream this on YouTube. I think we actually should.

Speaker 1 51:38

I think we should. Will you come and talk again, because I think things are going to come up in the media there and here, and especially I was watching RFK being grilled in the Senate. Did you watch any of that? Oh?

Speaker 2 52:01

I feel my IQ dropping just saying those initials. You know it's no. The brain worm is, you know, feasting on the last few molecules left in his brain.

Speaker 1 52:16

It really is, because one of the senators said to him did you say that COVID-19 was going to make children transsexual? And he was like, oh, he's got this weird sort of boy, he's got a weird. Really something's wrong because he was a heroin act or something. I don't know what's wrong with him. He was like, oh, I may, I may, I may have said that, well, you did say it and you were totally you did say it. So this guy is going to be now in charge of the American's health.

Speaker 2 52:47

Anyway, great, oh not to mention Dr Oz. We haven't even touched on that. I won't call him the word. I almost called him.

Speaker 1 52:57

Can we do Dr Oz next time we can jump on anyone you want. I want to jump on those suckers. All right, let's do it. So let's end this one, so that people aren't just Did I even answer your questions.

Speaker 2 53:11

I don't know.

Speaker 1 53:12

Oh yeah, you did, and I think the problem is that the tendrils of this wellness community just are so sort of fluid and never ending that we could go on and on and we will. We will do it again. We'll keep an eye on the media. Right, I'll keep an eye on the media here. One of us can take turns in keeping an eye on the American media, so we don't go too nuts.

Speaker 2 53:41

Yeah, you can't right. Like I'm aware of things, like I know that he was, you know, getting grilled, but I just am, I gonna give him an hour of my time to watch it.

Speaker 1 53:51

I couldn't, I'm like I just want to tell you the one thing that trump said today, which was that appalling, devastating plane crash yesterday in washington was probably caused by diversity.

Speaker 1 54:09

Diversity equity and inclusion. Yeah, are you kidding me? No, he didn't. It's a problem. Yeah, it was. No, the problem has been caused by diversity. So, on that appalling note, I'm going to leave you with a promise that we are going to come back together in a couple of weeks and do this again and just keep shooting the breeze and see if we can make an impact in Canada and America and Canada and Australia, and also I do have listeners in the US awesome so, but they're probably all skeptics, like us.

Speaker 2 54:45

Well, and I would like to and I mean edit all this bit out, but I would actually like to have you on the skeptic zone. Oh, I'd love that. I'd like to return the favor and have you come on the skeptic zone too. So I've reached out to Richard about that already. So awesome, awesome, great. Yeah, he thought it was a great idea. We just have to work out some logistics on when.

Speaker 1 55:07

Sure, so we're gonna stay in touch and I'm gonna interview you on the skeptics and then I'll interview Richard, and then Richard will get back to you and then I'll get, and then I'll get I don't know Susan Gerbic and you know all the fun stuff. I'll get Melanie back on, we'll get Nick. We'll do the whole thing. Right, right, I'll go over to the chemist with a microphone and go what the fuck are you doing? Selling turmeric, right? What's your? What's your opinion of turmeric on a last night?

Speaker 2 55:48

well, I think they know things because things like turmeric and garlic they do have some anti-inflammatory properties to them, but you can have the root.

Speaker 1 55:58

You can actually get the root. I don't. I don't know what's in the curcumin tablets and also now, I could tell you so many horror stories about tablets. Keep the horror stories in the back blocks of your brain Until next we meet Until next.

Speaker 2 56:18

We will leave the listeners on that little. You know that little cliff to just horror stories are coming.

Speaker 1 56:26

Yeah, okay beautiful cat, um. So I'm going to say goodbye to you and thank you so much for joining me. It's been an absolute well. I don't have pleasure is the word. It's been a terrifying journey into your appalling health issues.

Speaker 2 56:41

I have that effect on people. It's been a delight for me to chat with you. Thank you so much for having me. Thank you, sorry for scaring you.

Speaker 1 56:49

That's okay, and I'm sorry for scaring you too, listeners, but we have a job here to do to educate ourselves. So thank you so much for listening all you smart women and maybe there's some men out there that are listening as well and if there is hello, so goodbye from me. And if there is hello, so goodbye from me. Annie McCubbin, here in Sydney, australia, and Kat Mack in Alberta, canada. See you guys, bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.

Speaker 1 57:16

Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.

Speaker 1 58:27

This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.