Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
When Tracy met Hamish. Pt.2
What if the most intelligent among us could still be deceived by the allure of a charming con artist? Join us for an eye-opening episode featuring Tracey Hall, who courageously shares her story of being scammed by none other than Australia's infamous fraudster, Hamish McLaren. Disguised as Max Tevita, he exploited Tracey's desire for connection, spinning a web of lies that nearly lasted two years. We unravel how subtle "beige flags," or those easily overlooked inconsistencies, played a role in this deception, inviting listeners to question how they perceive trust and authenticity in relationships
Please listen to the 'Who the Hell is Hamish' Podcast! - https://podcasts.apple.com/au/podcast/who-the-hell-is-hamish/id1451470931
I'm really dangling a sort of essentially $317,000 carrot in front of to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies.
Speaker 2:Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land, always will be Aboriginal land. Hello and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. I'm Annie McCubbin, and this week we have part two of my interview with Tracy Hall, who was scammed by Hamish McLaren, australia's most notorious scammer. Prepare to be horrified. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was like being in a parallel universe because I had never met anybody like him. I don't have anyone like that in my life. I'd never experienced it, even vicariously, through somebody else. You know, this wasn't a part of my world, or my knowledge, or my education or anything like that. So, it was so foreign to me. Trying to untangle him and that's where the podcast was so instrumental in my healing which happened sort of two years after he was arrested was actually uncovering who the hell this man was.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because I had no idea it's a great podcast. May I say, yeah, it's a great podcast, it's really really good. And the because? Are you still in contact? You're in contact with another family off the podcast.
Speaker 1:Oh, heaps of the victims I still connect with. Yeah, oh, yeah, and how are they doing? Good, I think there's a range of a range of sort of um healing that goes on and everyone's had their different experiences. No one else um that was involved in the case. None of the other victims were in an intimate relationship with him, so that's a little bit different.
Speaker 1:No, they were just sort of business engagements, um, but I did meet his ex-wife, um, and we have a really close relationship in terms of you know, the things we can talk about that I can't really talk about with anybody else yeah, so he did have a wife here uh, they were divorced um. But yes, I didn't know he was married.
Speaker 2:Yeah, great and um okay yeah, just a few more lies, and uh yeah, good so, and then has he ever apologized to you, or no, he did contact me when he was arrested.
Speaker 1:So for the first six months after he was arrested he was in touch with me through phone calls and letters. He was arrested and in custody. He was in custody and calling me and sending me letters Saying what? Look at me, saying what, tracy? Oh, I can share them with you. Just, I mean a range of different things. One letter was just his rambling musings about all the things that we'd done together to elicit emotion, empathy and fond memories from me, you know. Another was telling me how hard life was for him in jail?
Speaker 2:Oh did it.
Speaker 1:Because he couldn't get a pen for 11 days to write me a letter. I mean, I feel so sorry for him um another oh my god, yeah, like just just crap really.
Speaker 1:You know, send me a photo of yourself. Um, uh, and then they turned to uh conversations around encouraging me to go and see him. There are things I can't say in letters or over the phone that will be beneficial for both of us. Um, you know, I know this is going to be hard for you, tracy, but blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm really dangling a sort of essentially 317 000 carat in front of my face to go and see him, and did you? I was tempted, annie, I get it. I was so tempted because I had, at this point too, you have to remember, I didn't have any answers. The police wouldn't talk to me. It's a legal case. The financial institutions wouldn't talk to me because it was wrapped up in the legal case. His friends and family wouldn't talk to me because they were team hamish. I had no information. Family still backed him. Well, yeah, I mean I, they wouldn't talk to me. So I'm guessing, or they just wanted to remain out of it, but they knew, did they?
Speaker 2:know, I mean if you were with them and you were calling him Max.
Speaker 1:Well, this is the thing you very rarely use people's names in engagements in real life. So when I think back about the times I was in a room with people that knew him as Hamish, I don't think I ever used the word Max, because you're in a room like this say and you're like, hey, can you please pass me the newspaper? You don't say, hey, max, would you like to pass me the? You know, you just don't. And so in those I'm just thinking about that, I guess that's true in those interactions we I didn't use his name.
Speaker 1:And there was one particular one where I met a friend of his who he apparently grew up with, and, uh, he called him in front of me hambone. And after this friend left, I said to hamish what, what's ham bone? What was that all about? And as quick as a flash he says oh, when I was at school I was really skinny, I had super skinny legs and everyone told me I needed to put more ham on my bones, more meat on my bones. So ham bone, that's where I got it from. He did not skip a beat and so I was like, oh, that makes sense. But of course, ham, hamish, right, yeah, of course. So it all makes sense now, but at the time, yeah, after the event, it all makes sense at the time.
Speaker 2:I'm just interesting about the name thing because we've just moved out of our um, our house in a lambie into this apartment and my neighbors said the thing they miss most is hearing me laugh and call out david, david, david. Where are you, david david? Are you coming for dinner? David dinner's of david david david, like that. It's so true. I use your name all the time. I'm so weird, do you? Do you use my name, david david's, in the room doing the recording for us? Do you actually use my name? I mostly call you sweetheart or darling, yeah, actually, that's true.
Speaker 1:That's what people do. Oh, they use endearments, yeah, or, babe, pass me the keys, yeah.
Speaker 2:Genuinely. I guess we don't really use the name unless we're cranky. You made that chair over my noise. Now I'm cranky, david. You now I'm cranky, david. You made a noise over my speaking. It was really important what I was saying to you anyway.
Speaker 1:Um, that's so, or if you're or if you're introduced to someone you often oh yeah what if you're introduced? Yeah, so, and that's the thing at all, but you can get around that. But I I think back to those times and, being in the room with his brother-in-law, that you know, a mate he grew up with he must have been shitting himself with. He must have been shitting himself. You know, he must have been shitting himself that someone was going to call him Hamish or Also did they know, Hang on because he.
Speaker 2:So you're in a room with him and his friend and family and in your mind, he's got this job, but he actually doesn't have a job. I mean, were they Like, how does that work, but he actually doesn't have a job? I mean, were they like, how does that work? He just never mentioned it at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was the weekend, it was probably a 15-minute interaction.
Speaker 2:Oh short.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, you come in and they're off, you know, going off for lunch or something, and you know, or you know, just sitting around reading the newspaper. It was a weekend, everyone was pretty relaxed. It was down at bondi. Um, you know, hey, what are you doing? Oh, we're about to go for breakfast. Yeah, what have you been up to? You know, it's just, it's just really fascinating that you just don't get to that. You know that information. You just accept that, oh, this is a mate he grew up with and I wonder if this is the brother-in-law. I wonder if they knew this is the brother-in-law.
Speaker 2:I wonder if they knew really Well I mean he what his friend did.
Speaker 1:I don't know if they knew that he was stealing money from me or coercing me to give him money, but they knew his past and he's had a very long, colourful, dodgy past that is very well documented.
Speaker 2:Funny how we use the word colour, isn't it? You know, we often say you know someone's had a colorful past, but actually they're just awful, awful people, yeah, dodgy, that have that have caused, you know, immeasurable damage to innocent people like yourself. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so, okay and so, but he never actually apologized, he never said sorry about the money no, um, not really, not really he.
Speaker 1:He did in court write a letter because he chose not to speak by then.
Speaker 2:I see, that's good yeah, yeah, so good, I'm glad.
Speaker 1:Well done, well done um, he, he wrote a letter as part of his sort of submission. He chose not to speak and the judge read out some of that letter, but it was like less than a page long and it was. You know, it was a very light heart, like light response, like apology. I guess you could say. I don't know, it was just so. It was such a non-event, that letter, that I can't even remember what.
Speaker 2:what was read out because it wasn't genuine anyway.
Speaker 1:No and he just he didn't have the balls to talk. He didn't have. You know, did you sit in court and look at him?
Speaker 2:yeah, every time he appeared but did he look at you, did he? So? No eye contact, no coward total coward. A psychological weapon, but an actual coward wow, yeah, yeah, the psychology of it is absolutely devastating and also fascinating. So, I mean, what we know about psychopaths is that they cannot feel the pain of other people no and they have an empathy bypass right because he clearly didn't care, did he he, about who he hurt.
Speaker 1:He didn't, but he also one of his tactics. Was he weaponized empathy? Yeah, yeah, yeah, you know, because he would talk about his dead parents and growing up as an orphan and different things that would garner empathy within me, to feel closer to him. Was that true about?
Speaker 2:the dead parents. No, I think they're still alive still alive in the gold coast somewhere no, I think they're in avalon.
Speaker 1:Oh, they're here. Yeah, yeah, he grew up on the northern beaches. Oh, it's our fault yeah oh my god, I'm so sorry I'm so sorry about that.
Speaker 2:It's interesting also about empathy. We often um, we talk about empathy when we do training and that everyone thinks empathy is really, really good.
Speaker 2:But empathy actually has severe limitations because it can be weaponized yeah and what we always say David, no, and we're doing training is that to stay in that place? That empathy is actually for the receipt. It's exhausting. You know you're climbing into someone's pain. Swimming around in there it's really, really tiring. And the other thing about empathy is we are likely to be punitive to people that we perceive are hurting those that are in our tribe. So, it actually can be. Empathy is really complicated, but I think we think we should all be empathetic.
Speaker 2:What we need to be is compassionate yeah because compassionate is is more of an intellectual exercise. You can be compassionate towards all but still remain at the same time, remain skeptical. Keep your critical thinking hat on, because once you're in, that I mean clearly you are. You know you're like me. I feel everybody's pain all the time. I really dislike the word empath so I won't use it, but I'm very inclined to be going. Oh no, that's so terrible, like you are. So of course he's used it so effectively, right?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and you know, I don't know, I think he knew at this stage, when he told me about his parents dying when he was very young, that he knew that I had lost my father when you know, when he was quite young, and that was his way to get me to feel those things for him and it was like a bonding thing for us so yeah we've both lost our parents.
Speaker 1:You know, I was in my 20s, but he was younger, and so there was. There was a part of me that really really felt deeply for that experience for him, because I had been through it myself of course so you know just just grossly like, just so manipulative and just gross.
Speaker 2:It's just super gross, isn't it? And if only you could use that, because clearly he's bright and smart, to be able to construct, you know, such a life. To construct a lie and to hold, to remember, to remember everything, you have to have a prodigious memory to remember all the lies you've told, and different lies for every victim.
Speaker 1:So for one victim he was a barrister, so there would have been a whole story about that. For another one, he was a triathlete, so there was a whole story about that. For another one he was a triathlete, so there was a whole story about that. Like, everybody had a different persona. And I think it's hilarious because I can't even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.
Speaker 1:And yet he had and they weren't just small things like the detail that he could recall on the stories that he would tell and the stories that came in sentences and paragraphs over a long period of time, all matched. There was nothing that mismatched.
Speaker 2:It's incredible actually so a barrister, a triathlete, a businessman, a financial chief financial officer, you know.
Speaker 1:So he just pick, pick.
Speaker 2:He just picked whatever he liked, and it's such a fantasist thing too as well, isn't it? Yeah, like there's so many elements to the psychology of it. I wonder what he's like in jail. Are you worried about when he comes out?
Speaker 1:I really try not to think about it too much.
Speaker 2:Good, sorry, I've provoked you again today.
Speaker 1:No, I mean it's obviously. It's coming up, and the closer it gets, the more I do think about it. Um, but at the end of the day, I can't. I can't control that you know, the only person that can can do the right thing is Hamish Um, I'm just in control of my own, my own life. I've focused on rebuilding both myself and my finances, focused on my daughter, my career, you know, obviously advocating and educating other people now. So that's what I focus on and and he's it's up to him what he does.
Speaker 2:You know, I hope there's been some level of rehabilitation, but I don't hold any hope yeah I don't, I don't imagine yes, he seems pretty committed to the path of he's never done anything else.
Speaker 1:This is the thing, right, like he's never had a job, he has never had a proper job. So what's he gonna do? You know, be a barista? Probably not.
Speaker 2:It's like a barrister, but just one sort of letter different, isn't it? That's right, you could just tell people. I'm a barrister, yes, exactly, and just hope they go towards. Can you pass me that water please, david? Sorry, just that water bottle.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you want me to get it? I'll get it, yeah.
Speaker 2:David's rehabilitating his knee to go skiing in Japan. Oh, aren, david's rehabilitating his knee to go skiing in Japan. Oh, aren't you darling I am, aren't you David? Yes, I am sweetheart. You don't have any problem with that, do you, annie? No, david. So I was just going to say I know we've gone on and on, but can I just take a quick turn to the right to talk about what we were talking about, about the latest scam, so we can all keep an eye out for it. Yeah, um, that we were talking about before we went on air. Yeah, sure so well.
Speaker 1:I mean to give a statistic in australia last year, australia we we lost 2.74 billion dollars to scams and fraud, and that is only scratching the surface because a lot of people don't report and why don't they report? Well, there's shame there's stigma, there's career damage or you know, risk reputational damage. There's reliving trauma. There's a whole bunch of reasons why absolutely makes perfect sense, right I totally understand I can totally empathize with that, um.
Speaker 1:But you know, without those reporting figures we can't solve the problem because we don't have the full picture. But what I can tell you is that there is a scam out there for everyone, and the media have led us to believe in the past that the likely person to get scammed is a lonely middle-aged woman sitting in her lounge room looking for love on the internet and surrounded by all your kitty cats, and suddenly she's transferred her life savings to her foreign that could be me if David wasn't here.
Speaker 1:Well, you're surrounded by your puppy dogs.
Speaker 2:That could be me, David, if you weren't here, me in my apartment with my dogs looking for love.
Speaker 1:On the internet, On the internet gone.
Speaker 2:Luckily I'm not because I've got David.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's's, I think that's the vision or the picture we have of the typical person to be scammed, the most common person to be scammed in australia today is a man in his 60s that's nearly david, that's david. It could be you alone in an apartment the most common types of scams are investment scams, romance scams and impersonation scams, so where a scammer will impersonate that they're the bank or telco or what have you, and is AI now a big problem with scamming?
Speaker 1:AI is huge. I think in the past we have been targeted by scammers that are kind of on a one-to-one basis. Targeted by scammers that are kind of on a one-to-one basis and that has grown over the years with the, you know, proliferation of tech and ai, where there are scammer farms set up, scammer businesses set up in southeast asia, where there are hundreds of thousands of employees working in these compounds that are targeted and basically Hang on.
Speaker 2:Are you saying that there's compounds with hundreds of thousands of people on them scamming?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and often these people who work in these compounds are victims of human trafficking, so they're brought there under false pretense, right?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:They are put in these compounds. They are targeted and incentivized on how much they can scam per day. If they do not meet their targets or want to escape because they know that this is wrong, they get tortured. Now this is very, very well publicized. They're called butchering scams and scammer compounds. They are run by criminal syndicates, the money is laundered and it is basically fueling a criminal. You know enterprise. I'm horrified. So, with that being said, these scammer compounds are so rich. They have so much money at their fingertips. They have access to resources, playbooks, technology. They've obviously got the people, and the ai that they are developing out of these compounds is said to be two years ahead of any government agency in the world. So they are operating without governance, without regulation, without restriction. They are innovative. They pivot every second. They are.
Speaker 1:There is not one corner of the globe that these compounds are not touching, and there are playbooks. So there is a playbook for how to scam a 45-year-old woman with two teenage sons. There is a playbook that you can get off the dark web or through these people that says here's how you scam a man from America that's just been widowed, that's in his 60s. It is frightening from america that's just been widowed, that's in his 60s. It is frightening, and one of the latest scams that is happening is um. There's a group in nigeria called the yahoo boys and this is the latest one that I've been hearing about and it is a group of criminals that have profiles of beautiful women hundreds of profiles of beautiful women at their fingertips that are fake profiles, and they are reaching out to men in their late teens, early 20s, and they start a relationship with what they think is this beautiful woman. They share nudes, potentially, they share a lot of information about themselves, and then these scammers sextort them. So so they sex.
Speaker 2:So the boy, the men send them pictures.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the boy might send a nude or a video. And then the scammer says if you don't give me X amount of money, I'm going to share this intimate video or photo and the details you've given me with your whole network, your employer, your family, whatever the case might be, I'm going to send it to a journalist and it's going to go all around your community. And so, of course, these kids are so scared about this that they give money. But then it doesn't stop and they ask for more money and more money and more money.
Speaker 2:And what happens in the.
Speaker 1:In really severe cases and they've been well documented and well represented in the media. There are people that are dying by suicide.
Speaker 2:Because they don't know how to get out of it.
Speaker 1:They don't know how to get out of it. And then the scam will go after the family in their moment of grief. And it is frightening. You think it's an elderly person? You think it's a lonely?
Speaker 2:middle-aged woman. Everybody is vulnerable. There is a scam for everybody and elderly person. You think it's a lonely middle-aged woman? Yeah, everybody is vulnerable.
Speaker 1:Yeah there is a scam for everybody and the moment you think it's not going to happen to you yep is the moment you're 10 times more vulnerable so what is your advice for listeners?
Speaker 2:how do we protect ourselves?
Speaker 1:oh, there is so many tips and tricks that you you can do, depending on on you know what it is, but I think the overarching one is is keep your critical brain on. You know what it is, but I think the overarching one is keep your critical brain on you know. If you are proactively being reached out to by a stranger and building a relationship and then sharing information like that's a massive red flag. You know if you're being asked for money, if you're being asked for data, then you've got to start to think what's in it for them to get that information. Romance scans there are reverse image searches that you can do, so you can see if this is a stock image of somebody that you're dating or, in fact, it's somebody that's not the identity that you're talking about. You can, you know, trawl the internet looking for a digital profile. If you're investing with someone, you can look up to see whether they have the regulated license to be investing your money. Overarchingly, I think we have to be really, really skeptical.
Speaker 1:You know, yeah, I think we have to trust, but verify. Verify everything, yep. And the other thing I say to do is talk about what you're doing. The, the silent secrecy that exists around money and relationships, especially ones that are driven online, create a perfect environment for scammers to thrive. So, if I'm talking to someone and starting a relationship, talk to a friend about that, talk to a loved one, because quite often, when you're wearing your rose-colored glasses, all the red flags are just flags, and it is when there's someone next to you that can go hey, is that right, are you sure? And same with investing money. We don't talk about our money. We don't talk about investing money, making money, losing money, and this is an environment that allows these people to thrive, because if you're not talking about it, then no one can see the things that you can't yeah, in my second book why smart women?
Speaker 2:um, by the lies I wrote a character that had been scammed by her friend, um, by someone she'd met, and they hadn't, you know, they had a relationship, you know, just a friendship relationship in a block of flats, and she scammed her because I, because I wanted to show that charm and friendship and all those things, they can really sway your thinking and to your point. We want to believe that people are good and let's remember that mostly they are, but for the ones that aren't good, good and especially the proliferation of it now in this, in the current tech environment man, they can do some damage, yeah, and they don't care no, because it's all about getting money or data and I think we forget about the data piece, because if you give away your information, that is very, very valuable.
Speaker 1:They valuable, they can on-sell that data and when they get that at scale that is incredibly valuable and with all the data breaches that have happened, you know, just in Australia, but globally, there is a lot of data floating around the dark web that people can buy and use and you know, and that's the danger of that as well. So it's not always money. You know, we talk about money a lot and losing money, but you lose your data, you lose your identity online. It's a whole world of trouble as well.
Speaker 2:And I think you also just hear so often, don't you, that someone has formed a relationship with someone and then their friend says to them this doesn't feel right, and what happens is they then actually exclude the friend. And that don't they? Yeah, and that's often encouraged by the scammer, because the friend has seen the and that's very common as well isn't it?
Speaker 1:Isolation? Yeah, Isolation is a huge tactic and I had friends.
Speaker 1:I had a friend who came to me and and tried to warn me really yeah, did you yeah, and you know, because she was really the only one that knew what I was doing with my money with him, and it was only through her dogged questioning and curiosity that she knew that information. And she did say to me look, I, I just don't think he, I just don't think this is right, and she didn't have any hard evidence, she just had a feeling it was her spidey senses yeah, yes.
Speaker 2:And what did you do with that information? What happened?
Speaker 1:I said to her because she hadn't met him at this point, right, and I said to her you know, just just meet him. I want you to meet him. When you meet him you will know he's one of the most solid people I've, perfect, ever met. Perfect. And you know he, you'll see, you'll see and you know she met him. You know, of course, on the surface level she really, if she didn't be so suspicious of him, she would have really liked him, her and her husband. But she was suspicious and she was doing a whole bunch of investigating in the back end because she knew she had to give me something concrete for me to believe it. It couldn't just be her feelings when she'd spent half an hour with him, kind of thing once she'd met him did she still have the same suspicion, so she wasn't charmed interesting no, but her husband was like, if I, if I wasn't listening to you say all these things, I would have really liked him.
Speaker 1:I would have loved to go for a bike ride yeah, of course, of course, of course, um charm and you know she didn't want to be right. No, she knew how happy I was and she knew how tough my divorce had been. She wanted me to be happy, she didn't want to be right, so, and she was worried about exactly what you said, like losing our friendship we've been friends for 17 years.
Speaker 1:You don't just throw that away of course and so she was concerned about all those things and she was like how, like, what do I do here? How do I, you know, and and you know, luckily, I guess you could say he was arrested before she had to give me that folder of information that she had been collecting on him. Um, and it all unfolded. But, um, yeah, she certainly was seeing all the tricks unfold that I didn't right, interesting.
Speaker 2:And I suppose if anybody's listening to this and somebody is saying to to them, you know someone's saying to you maybe beware, maybe listen, because when you're very, very close to something yeah, um, it's it's hard to override your motivated reasoning when you're first colored glasses.
Speaker 1:You want to be loved.
Speaker 2:It's so normal and so natural.
Speaker 1:It's all we want, right yeah someone to care about us and I wonder whether you know I'd had that conversation about my money and investments with five of my besties. You know, my friends, Whether, even if four of them had come to me and said I'm not sure what, do you think? Are you sure, like I don't know, like really, have you checked this? You know she was one person and it's very easy to dismiss one person's concern. I mean, I did the exact thing, I said, but you haven't even met him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, you don't know him like I know him yeah but if four or five of my friends had have said the same thing, then perhaps do you think, thinking, do you think?
Speaker 2:or do you think you would have just gone? Because I think what other thing is that people go? Look, they're just jealous. I've got the whole thing here like we can really yeah. I don't know.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure I I probably wouldn't have dismissed it as easily, as quickly as I did I, it would have gotten into my brain finally yeah, if only finally, finally right but also potentially I would have said something to him, because we have that level of and then what would he have said?
Speaker 1:oh, he would have. He would have found a way to you know, um, explain it away or make me feel comfortable again or whatever. And I you know, yeah, who knows? I mean you can't, you can't take back time, but definitely talking about what you're doing with your money, what you're doing in relationships, it's really important with more than one person right, that's a top tip.
Speaker 2:So, everybody out there, make sure that it's not just one person, but two or three people and have a chat, and if you're starting to get, you know, feedback that is antithetical to what you believe, then maybe it's worth listening to. Yeah, interesting. Um well, tracy Hall, we have talked for a long time. That is the most devastatingly interesting story, and I am simultaneously so sorry that you went through it, but so, um so happy at the same time that you've managed to take your experience and become an educator around this, because, boy, do we need it. Yeah, and let's just keep remembering, um, listeners, that your intelligence will not protect you on its own. The thing that will protect you is your critical thinking skills, which we have to work on all the time, and actually talking to other people, not just with people that automatically agree with you, right, because that's the other thing we're tempted to do, isn't it, tracy?
Speaker 2:Just find people that agree with us. Well, it's been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for coming to my apartment, for spending time with David, with Yo-Yo and Ryder, who are now too exhausted to even bark, and hopefully you'll come on again and I'll follow the next thing you do in your career with interest. Thank you for coming in. Thank you so much for the chat Pleasure and thank you, listeners. Tune in next time. See you later. Bye, thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style.
Speaker 2:Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint. But it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think and in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that.
Speaker 2:And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
