Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Are you being gaslit? Pt.2
What happens when the text messages suddenly stop flowing? When the intense connection you felt begins to fade into sporadic breadcrumbs of attention? In this eye-opening continuation of Annie McCubbin's conversation with Karen Bijkersma, they dive deep into the psychology behind manipulative dating tactics and why intelligent women sometimes find themselves trapped in dangerous relationships.
Karen's book - https://www.amazon.com.au/Book-Every-Woman-Needs-Read/dp/B0DQC7NPYY
🙋♀️ Meet with Annie - go.oncehub.com/AnnieMcCubbin
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He was tall, he was young, he was you know, he was a big bloke. I was really intimidated and unable pretty much to do anything. I was just frozen in place going what do I do? You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur, jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, but I did go through some shockers to find him and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women. This is part two of my conversation with Karen Bikusma. If you didn't listen to part one, I suggest you go back and have a listen and then listen to this week's. It's very, very interesting. It's about the trouble that we get into when we're doing online dating. It's about sexually transmitted debt and, fundamentally, it's about women still getting abused by men. Tune in, I think you're going to find it really interesting.
Speaker 2:You know someone will start. This is a bit of a a bit off topic, but you see it a little bit in dating too, with, say, texting, where, um, I've had experiences more recently where it starts out you know very, very hot love bombing and then they suddenly turn cold, so you're meant to come back to them seeking that first sort of really you know hot love bombed really intense experience yeah, the intensity, you know, goes from 100 to 0.
Speaker 2:You're supposed to work very hard to try and get it back back reconnect and then they may reconnect, but then really not and just start breadcrumbing you, texting you once or twice a day instead of all day. Every day giving you little breadcrumbs, that keeps you hooked.
Speaker 1:Keeps you hooked right and you're just on tenterhooks the whole time. Waiting for the next text.
Speaker 2:Waiting for the next text, waiting for the next text, anxious, and then when you get a text, you know, boom, it's like a pokey slot machine. Yeah, and you are flooded with relief, you're flooded with chemicals, you feel connected and reassured, you feel really good. That doesn't last, as you were saying, and so you're back to waiting again and you're glued to your phone. For as long as I know, this has happened A lot.
Speaker 1:I know this has happened to women in my circle where they've been on the apps. Yes, and it started off being really intense. Yes, you know lots of that was and maybe they've met up and that was amazing and can't believe how good that was and you're incredible. And then it's either it drops off or they just ghost them. Yes, and ghosting is so rude, so rude, it's so rude.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's actually quite abusive. Yes, if you have established some kind of connection, it's abusive. A lot of the stories in this book start with, you know, intense beginnings, intensely romantic, and we are now um. You know psychologists and relationship coaches will tell us go slowly.
Speaker 1:You know, it's those intense relationships that that uh so is the recommendation um to be more circumspect about the beginning of a relationship.
Speaker 2:Yes, go slow and watch for red flags and don't get chemically addicted right up, because that interferes with your ability to see the person and critically evaluate them and patiently wait to get to know them patiently wait to get to know them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that whole um. You can just see how it's. It's so easy to um to excise those red flags from your experience you just not even look at them, because to your point it's like but he says he loves me. How this can't be true. I must have misrepresented what he said. It must be my mistake.
Speaker 2:Yes, I must have misinterpreted the joke or yes, or what did I do that I could?
Speaker 1:have done, provoked him, and why?
Speaker 2:did I push him away and you know why did I scare him off?
Speaker 1:And I think it's interesting, isn't it that, women, we are so socialized, are we not?
Speaker 2:Oh yes, we really. We're groomed. It's like we're groomed to accommodate men and to smooth things over for men and to take on so much responsibility for their behavior and their emotions, as well as our own. It's exhausting, being in a good relationship so being in a bad relationship. It's difficult to make decisions and take actions on top of that, that and um we talk a lot about um.
Speaker 1:I know this comes up in rape cases, um, so the law is definitely um at odds with dealing with the reality of these things is it?
Speaker 1:not so far behind. So far behind, and I know that there's always a lot of um discourse around. Well, why didn't she just get up and go? And that's either in a, you know, in an individual rape situation. Why didn't she fight? Or why didn't the woman leave? If, if this relationship was so bad, how come? And how come she went back? And I think I think you mentioned this notion of she's not in fight, she's not not in flight, she's in freeze. Yes, and do you want to describe that to me?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, because you think the instinct would be, if you're under attack, is to fight and to flee. And yes, that makes sense. But your nervous system responds how it responds and you're not in control of that. If that kicks in for you, great, you've got a fighting chance. But if you freeze which is also a survival technique that often works if you freeze, you literally cannot take action. It's a physical reaction and I'm not a scientist, I'm not a physiologist.
Speaker 2:I can't explain it, but yes, along with flight and fight, there is freeze and there is also fawn. And I know in, especially in the early days of a relationship, or if I'm feeling anxious because I've been, you know, treated with some hot and cold, some bread crumbing and that sort of behavior, I will fawn. What do you mean by fawn?
Speaker 2:or just be really, um, super nice, super nice too nice yeah yes, I mean it's hard because I am overly empathetic and I am too nice anyway, but I will kick into this motherly nurse. You know I will start to take on these roles and I can see myself doing it, but it's almost like I can't control it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, we can't. And I think I know David and I in our communication training we do talk about flight fight or freeze and it is often the reaction of a lot of mammals. And I often say to a group of women you know, I ask a question and then everybody's so terrified of getting it wrong. They all just sort of sit there and stare at me and I say they look like little marsupials hanging around behind bushes going. I hope she doesn't know I'm here, yeah and um, I, I, I really get it.
Speaker 2:But playing dead, yes, can be a real survival, hundred percent and it's happened in those mass killings sometimes. Yes, and it happens in sexual assaults and rights, especially right, and actually it's probably what saved you from worse violence or being murdered.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:The fact that you played dead. Yeah, a lot of women feel guilty about why didn't I fight back? But yes, and then it's back on the woman. You didn't have a choice, and then it's back on her.
Speaker 1:It's all, all, all back on the woman, which is just so infuriating. So I consider myself, I'm quite a high status person, I'm pretty confident, I'm well-schooled in critical thinking, and yet a couple of weeks ago, it was getting dark and I was walking through Chatswood, which is a suburb in Sydney, and I was going through one of those tunnels where the road goes above you, I think the train goes above you One of those, yeah, not a very long tunnel. And I was going through one of those tunnels where the road goes above you, I think the train goes above you, one of those, yeah, not a very long tunnel. And I was on my own and I'm not young, as you know, I'm quite fit.
Speaker 1:Thanks for asking and this bloke was walking the other direction and he said, oh, hello. I said hi, and then he turned around and he said so what made you happy today? And we were at the beginning of the tunnel and, um, I said, oh, I just I didn't know what to say, so I kept walking. And then he walked right up behind me and he was really tall and he said go on, it's just a question, it's not just a question yeah, it's just a question didn't anything make you happy today, didn't any?
Speaker 1:and I would normally pride myself on having a smart ass response, um, on being able to defend myself. I was terrified and I began doing that sweating. I began that cold sweat. I got, I went and I thought, and then I went through the whole I'm only halfway across this tunnel. I mean, should I run? I mean, am I actually? And then there through the whole. I'm only halfway across this tunnel. I mean, should I run? I mean, am I actually? And then there's the whole second guessing thing I was really intimidated.
Speaker 2:If I run, will he chase? Yes, that's right.
Speaker 1:And he was tall, he was young, he was, you know, he was a big bloke. I was really intimidated and unable pretty much to do anything. I was just frozen in place, going. What do I do?
Speaker 2:There's a million things going through your head.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And also there's that instinct where it's a matter of survival If you say or do the wrong thing, if you poke the bear, then maybe you're escalating the situation. And it is an instinct to try and de-escalate, yes, or to play dead, yeah, and of course we'll kick ourselves later. Yeah think you know well, I'm a strong woman. Why right didn't I say something? Why did, why didn't I say what makes you think you're so entitled to my time and attention?
Speaker 2:and do you realize how threatening it is to women if you approach them yeah, especially in a tunnel and rah, rah, rah yeah berate him and I did nothing. Truth bomb him yeah, that's right or poke him in the eyes and kick him in the nuts yeah, run or whatever you wish, and you will probably go through all these scenarios afterwards and wish you'd done at least one of them, if not all of them.
Speaker 2:But at that moment, yeah, you freeze and you want to de-escalate, and also you second guess and your second guess I'm thinking of making this up.
Speaker 1:He's not a threat and which must happen in a dv situation as well. I'm probably making this up. He didn't mean that. So you're post-rationalizing, right. You know, almost it's. The whole situation sort of becomes orwellian and and so I'm going he's, he's not doing anything, and he got closer and closer. Then I got out into this, into the street, and there was more people, and then I, and then I'm to your point why didn't I? Why didn't I? Why?
Speaker 1:didn't I well, and why? Why? Why is it about the woman? Why did he do that exactly?
Speaker 2:they do it why is it exactly pisses me off, and what and why are people asking women or saying about women in a very judgmental and unempathetic way? Why didn't you leave here? Or why didn't she leave sooner? Well, well, why is he abusing her?
Speaker 1:Exactly. Why didn't he stop abusing her?
Speaker 2:Why didn't he get professional help? Or why didn't he leave the house? He's the one who should leave not her, yeah, so all of those questions are really infuriating, yeah they are.
Speaker 1:So I guess I'm hoping that this discussion will have maybe elicited some interest in people or some curiosity in women that may be starting to think to themselves. Hang on, there's elements of this in my relationship. So what do they do? What do you do? Tell me what they should do.
Speaker 2:If you want to examine your own relationship, your past relationships, yeah, or if they're writing it right now, let's just say, okay, the reason I wrote the book.
Speaker 2:We need the terminology, we need the language. We have some of it now, like gaslighting red flags, narcissist these are words that we generally understand, that if we understand we might not understand them correctly exactly, but when you have the terminology you can apply it to your situation. But you need to know it's a thing like in my last my long-term relationship that turned out abusive. I didn't realize I was being massively financially abused because I didn't think to check, didn't think to check and keep an eye on our joint bank account. So it was going on without my knowledge. But it came to my attention when he suggested to me that I help him pay off his credit cards.
Speaker 2:I had my own credit card. He had multiple credit cards. He'd run up massive debts. He wanted to start paying them down. He wanted me to help him and he'd started calling one of them the family credit card and I'd always think, no, it's not, that's your credit card, we don't have a family credit card. No, it's not, that's your credit card, we don't have a family credit card. Um, but he wanted. He got very angry that I wouldn't help him pay off his personal debt. I was busy paying off my own and I realized this is something I'd read in, I don't know, cleo or cosmo magazine back in the 80s or something sexually transmitted debt. Do not take on sexually transmitted debt. So suddenly I had a name for what he was doing and I knew that was bad and that was abusive and so what you're saying is and I love that is, that language is liberating.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you can see it. If you can name it, it gives it a frame right and you can hang examples on that frame and think, oh, is this financial abuse? Is that financial abuse? Am I being gaslit? Is that a red flag? Is he a narcissist? Is that psychological abuse? You can name and question and you can look at examples of things you might have just registered or been uncomfortable about in your relationship but glossed over or smoothed over. But if you start to examine them, they have a name and that name means it's abusive.
Speaker 1:So that's so interesting. So apply the language and then, because of our predisposition to post-rationalise, to dismiss, to you know, redraw this situation so that he's in a positive light. I guess what you need to do is have a person in your life that you can talk to about it and say this is happening. What do you think?
Speaker 2:Yes, and if that person can say that's not right, that sounds like gaslighting or that sounds quite that, that sounds like sexually transmitted debt that I read about in a magazine in the 80s. If somebody can name what it is, then it becomes more factual. That's the thing and all the excuses and glossing over and justifications and everything else starts to fall away does okay and. I had a really interesting experience as soon as that term sexually transmitted debt came into my head and I realized that's what it is and that's wrong yeah it was like it just opened the door.
Speaker 2:It's like it was like the final scene in the sixth sense. Okay, sorry spoiler alert where we realize he's you know, we're shown scene after scene after scene after scene. It's like dominoes falling and we realize he's dead. That's what happened to me. I started seeing. This is abuse. This is abuse. He's done this, this, this, this, and it was like dominoes falling that's so good I recognized one thing as abuse and I turned that key yeah, open the door. And I just saw a whole series, so you saw it.
Speaker 1:So this is a situation where maybe what if somebody sees it? And they have that understanding and that domino effect and then they go back.
Speaker 2:Well, that happens a lot too, because it is very hard to leave for so many reasons, and I was stuck in the house with him that day, I think, like it was like a day that you realized yes, it was all yeah, he'd been pressuring me for a few days about the credit card plus was super angry.
Speaker 2:He used he was a mood bully he used anger and getting in my face, because he knows I don't like conflict and aggression. So he was getting all up in my face angrily about paying off his credit card debt, this sexually transmitted debt. And so then I just decided I'm done. And wow, I just said I want a divorce. You know, and what happened? Um, well then, he, well, he just had to accept that right, but he wouldn't move out you had to move right well, I had nowhere to go either.
Speaker 2:So what happened? And so we? Well, I won't go too much into that particularly, but what?
Speaker 2:generally happens is that, yes, she needs to leave because he won't, which is what happened to me. But it's very expensive, for one thing. Of course, there's a whole lot of practical steps you need to take. There may be police involved, and that in itself is a whole thing. Are they believing you, taking you seriously? Are you getting the support you need? Do you have somewhere to go? Is your family with you or against you? But he's such a nice guy yeah, such a nice guy. You're making a mountain out of a molehill. Or maybe she's not even believed. There are so many things working against her. She may have cultural or religious pressures against her which are extremely hard to defy and overcome. And, yeah, she's been manipulated and downtrodden and her confidence is eroded. She's exhausted. She might have special needs. Absolutely, she could have a child with special needs, exactly, which makes it all the more difficult.
Speaker 1:But also, I didn't mean to say that in an enthusiastic manner that sounded, I just I just realised. I'm just saying that it's all very well to say why don't you leave? You've got a child with special needs. What are you meant to do?
Speaker 2:Yes, or just children full stop. And then she may have been using some maladaptive coping mechanisms herself she may be a complete alcoholic by now or using drugs or prescription medication, or have depression, anxiety and who knows what else and so she's got all these obstacles to push through and I like to think you know, instead of asking a woman why didn't you leave sooner, or why, saying you know, why doesn't she leave him, well, what are you doing to help and what are you doing to change the patriarchy and the law and to 100%?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what are you doing besides sitting?
Speaker 2:back and judging, and judging from the outside and not looking at him, you know, pointing the finger at her. So we need to shift the blame onto the perpetrator.
Speaker 1:A few weeks ago I interviewed Tracy Hall. Tracy Hall wrote the book the Last Victim and she was the woman that got caught up with Hamish, who was oh yes, hamish mclaren, who was a serial scammer and she was. He was perfect in a relationship with her, like perfect, very nice, the whole time, and he scammed her out of 317 000 wow, and that's just a bit more than I was scammed out of.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah by my ex, right, yeah.
Speaker 1:It's horrible, but she there were and it's back to this notion of why we stay. So she said there was beige flags along the way that indicated something was wrong.
Speaker 1:But back to that point. He was lovely and she had one friend going Tracy, this doesn't make sense. This doesn't make sense. And and you know how she found out? No, she turned on the television and he was being arrested. Wow, and still then he's like there was never any acknowledgement of the deceit. But I just think, I just want to make sure that everyone who's listening to this that we don't if there are red flags. The earlier you exit these relationships, the better. Yes, and early in the dating. Yes, Jealousy is not a sign of love.
Speaker 2:No, it's not, and it's romanticized by Hollywood. It's terrible, it's in romance novels and it's a really big red flag and it's part of coercive control. Jealousy is not.
Speaker 1:And possessiveness and that notion of you know. I just like to know where you are, because I want to keep you safe. All those things, these are all red flags. The earlier you recognize that this is not going to be a healthy relationship, get out?
Speaker 2:Yes, because it gets harder and harder to get out. You get more and more exploited and manipulated and worn down and also the abuse and violence invariably escalates. Of course it does, and the police will tell you this. It escalates. Of course it does, and the police will tell you this. It escalates and coercive control might start out with seeming quite romantic, but it can end in extreme violence.
Speaker 1:I love you, darling. I just want to know where you are. 100%, that's right. I just missed you.
Speaker 2:I just turned up at this social event you're at because I missed you. Yeah, and it's insidious.
Speaker 1:It's not yeah, yeah, yeah. So I think, um, yeah, that's what I'd like everyone to take away from this is, um, the first signs get out, the sooner the better, and before you get chemically bonded yep perfect yep, and also go no contact.
Speaker 2:Go no contact because until you've gone no contact for long enough that you're over it. You are still in an addictive cycle. You know if he's breadcrumbing you or if he keeps bringing you back, turning up on your doorstep with flowers or whatever he's doing, you are still bound to him. You're still very subject and at risk to going back to a potentially dangerous or already dangerous situation.
Speaker 1:No contact, no contact and let's just remember that there are really decent nice men out there. Oh, there are, and I'm married to one. He's never for one minute has been remotely controlling. He's extremely reasonable. Of course, you know we're both imperfect, but you know it's it's. It's absolutely possible to have a relationship with someone who is not controlling. Um and karen, thank you so much for making the time of coming to talk to me. I'm going to go and see karen, that you'll be. It'll be too late by the time this episode goes up, but I'm going to go and listen to k talk at Skeptics in the Pub which is at the Occidental Hotel on the second first Thursday. I'm trying to think yes.
Speaker 2:Thursday the first Thursday of the month.
Speaker 1:The Skeptics are the most fabulous, fabulous organisation and they have these grassroots meetings at pubs all over the world and the sydney one is at the occidental hotel where karen is going to talk tomorrow night and I will be there with my friend cheering her on um. Thank you so much for coming and thank you so much for writing that book. This is the most important issue this and climate change in my mind.
Speaker 2:The two most important issues. I agree it's an epidemic. It's an epidemic, it really is.
Speaker 1:And I would like to think that in our very, very small way, we are starting to combat it. So thank you for your time, thank you for your good advocacy. I'll see you tomorrow night and, wherever you are listening to the podcast, don't take any rubbish from anybody ever. You are worth more than that. So take care of yourselves. Have a good day wherever you are. See you next week. Bye.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning into why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that, and don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.
Speaker 1:This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
