Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Bonus Ep: Been ghosted online? Better listen in….
Have you ever been ghosted? That moment when someone you've been talking to simply vanishes without explanation, leaving you wondering what went wrong? In this fascinating exploration of modern relationships, Annie McCubbin and her guest David delve into the psychology behind "ghosting" – that increasingly common phenomenon where people disappear from our lives without closure.
Join Annie and her husband David for a more relaxed, behind-the-scenes chat. It’s the stuff that doesn’t always make it into the main pod — candid convos, sharp takes, a few laughs, and plenty of honest thinking. Think less structured, more real. If you enjoy the main show, you’ll love hearing these two bounce off each other in a more personal, unfiltered way.
🙋♀️ Meet with Annie - go.oncehub.com/AnnieMcCubbin
You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome to the second of our bonus episodes. These episodes are going to be in addition to our weekly episodes, which come out on a Tuesday, and in these bonus episodes I am going to be chatting all things relational with David hello hello.
Speaker 1:Now it can be in intimate relationships. It can be any relationships you can think of, including geopolitical. Yeah, we can go as big or as little as we like. Yes, indeed, but this week I thought what we'd concentrate on was the notion of ghosting. In the second part of my chat with Karen, we talked about Karen Bikusma.
Speaker 1:Karen Bikusma. With Karen, we talked about what happens to women when they get ghosted by a man online and what they should do about that and what's happening to their brain chemistry. And I thought, as I'm not male and not that you are representative of all men, but I thought we could just have a little chat about why would men do it? First of all, what is ghosting? What is ghosting?
Speaker 2:What is ghosting?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what is online ghosting?
Speaker 2:You explain it Well. I mean ghosting. It occurs when you believe that you've established a relationship with somebody and in all good relationships you communicate backwards and forwards a relationship with somebody, and in all good relationships you communicate backwards and forwards but if one partner in that relationship decides that they're just going to disappear and not return any messages, not show up, not call, not do anything, basically become a ghost.
Speaker 1:That's ghosting and I guess it's interesting because we are going to talk about it in in terms of online dating, but I have been hearing about in the job market, people have also been ghosted, sometimes by recruiters and sometimes by someone that they've been having a communication with.
Speaker 2:Yeah, like a prospective client or something like that. You've had a really great meeting, you think that you're heading in a really great direction, and then they don't respond to any emails. They don't pick up the phone when you call them. You are being ghosted professionally.
Speaker 1:It's so rude. It's so rude. Also, a friend of mine was telling me that her husband had been approached by a recruiter. He was looking for a job and then they'd been sort of having this conversation and then the recruiter ghosted him, even though he actually initiated the relationship in the first place, which is really weird. The whole thing's weird and it's rude, david, it's really rude.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean it's rude when you're the person who is being ghosted.
Speaker 1:It's rude anyway.
Speaker 2:Yes, you could argue that. And cowardly yes, you could argue that.
Speaker 1:And cowardly, yes, you could argue that it's really cowardly, Like get on the phone and put the person get online and put the person out of their misery. It's disgusting, Anyway, what do we think what's driving? And do we think that there is a? I think there's more a proliferation of men doing it to women online, as opposed to the opposite.
Speaker 2:Well, let me think Now I recall my dating years a very, very, very long time ago, and I certainly remember being ghosted.
Speaker 1:No, what, yeah, I mean, how would you ghost back then?
Speaker 2:How would you? Well, you just wouldn't. You wouldn't return a phone call. That was the primary way that we used to talk to each other. You know they wouldn't ever return a phone call. You'd leave messages on the answering machine. You'd come home. Remember that.
Speaker 2:You'd come home and you'd turn on the answering machine and hoping that it would either be a call from your agent saying that you've got an audition or that you've got the job, or it was that lovely girl that you met in the pub the other day and you exchanged phone numbers and you had a great chat and you sent them a message and you asked if you would like to go on a picnic together and you got nothing.
Speaker 1:No wonder she didn't get back to you. That is so lame and daggy. What were you thinking?
Speaker 2:But I am saying that I don't think the experience of being ghosted is new, nor is it exclusively gendered, although I would certainly I'm just looking it up, you keep talking. Okay, well, I would certainly own up to the fact that it's probably something in terms of the numbers. Are you looking up the numbers?
Speaker 1:Here we go. What, oh, hang on, whoa, here we go, uh-oh, uh-oh.
Speaker 2:Stand by. You know, some surprising, shocking research is about to be shared by Annie. Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1:Here we go.
Speaker 2:Hang on. Who's the source?
Speaker 1:Never mind about that. Well, there's no definitive data, so starting with that, there's no definitive data.
Speaker 2:Okay, so it's all anecdotal?
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they haven't had time to collect the data. Well, there's no definitive data comparing ghosting rates between men and women. Some studies and observations suggest that women may be more likely to engage in ghosting, particularly in the context of online dating. This could be due to various factors, including the sheer volume of messages women receive on dating apps, which makes it difficult to respond to everyone. Additionally, some argue that ghosting might be a way for people to avoid difficult conversations or potential hurt feelings.
Speaker 2:I think that's the reason why the ghoster does it. You know they want to avoid a difficult conversation. They want to avoid telling somebody no, look, I don't want to see you again because you didn't impress me that much, which is hurtful. So it's probably the easiest thing to do is to avoid any kind of contact.
Speaker 1:A 2018 survey indicated that women across different age groups were more likely to ghost than men. Okay, so this is really really. Cultural norms and expectations about how people should handle rejection might also play a role in ghosting behavior. All right.
Speaker 2:Now that complicates things. I've got a hypothesis Go on as to why. All right, because was that study about people who are in the relationship apps?
Speaker 1:Well, david, I read it to you yeah, okay, and that's all it said. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:I don't know, I think so, okay so if that's the case, then we're not talking about, you know, all women ghosting all men. We're talking about a subset.
Speaker 2:We're talking about women who might make contact with somebody through a dating app with a gentleman who has made himself available to the dating app rather than seeking to develop a relationship in the real world. Could it be that when women actually meet the person behind the photograph in that particular environment, they are just immediately disappointed with the quality of the person that they've met and would rather not see them again?
Speaker 1:Hang on, hang on. Have they met the person online or they've met them in the flesh?
Speaker 2:No, no, this is the online dating thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but are they just still online? They haven't gone out for a drink or anything.
Speaker 2:Okay, so they go out for a drink.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but they're just still online.
Speaker 2:They haven't gone out for a drink, or anything.
Speaker 1:Okay, so they go out for a drink. Okay, let's go out for a drink. Hi, hi, there, hi.
Speaker 2:And then you notice that I'm wearing a cheap watch Cheap watch that I got from Kmart. Yeah that I split the bill and I'm rude to the waitress. I've noticed this. Yeah, you've noticed that. Okay, so when?
Speaker 1:you? What did you say to the waitress? Oh, you know, are you ready for? Can I get you anything else? Sir, I'm being the waitress, okay.
Speaker 2:No, can't you see that we're having a conversation? Here, I do not like to be interrupted.
Speaker 1:That was a terrible acting.
Speaker 2:Let's try that, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, can I get you anything else, sir? Finally, do you know how long?
Speaker 2:we have been sitting here waiting to get your attention. Yeah, that's horrible. I hate you. Yeah, mm-hmm. So if a gentleman who has joined the dating app and has got this date because of that and they had that first meeting if he reveals his true character, she might ghost him, she might ghost him, she might ghost him. And why wouldn't she? I mean, is it better for her to call him up and say listen, the way that you talked to that waitress was really disappointing.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I don't think I can have a relationship with you. No, you don't need to do that.
Speaker 1:You don't need to do that. You don't need to extrapolate on what went wrong. Reasonable to say this is not going to work, but thank you. I know from our children when they were in that environment. They just politely ended it because they're raised by us.
Speaker 2:And yet sometimes you can have a prospective romantic partner Well, they think they're a prospective romantic partner who is determined to keep at it. Sure, well, that's called stalking.
Speaker 1:That's called stalking. Once you've actually said I'm not interested and they keep going on and on and on at you, then that's called stalking, because you're stomping all over their boundaries.
Speaker 2:So is that an appropriate time to actually ghost that person who's doing it to you?
Speaker 1:Sure, it's different, I guess what I'm talking about and I think, look, I don't know and this is anecdotal and I'm not relying on studies here and I think it would be so hard to do a study on this anyway, it would have to be observational studies but I think possibly let's just investigate the idea that the reason that men ghost might be different to the reason that women ghost. And my friend that I was having coffee with this morning from the gym, hello, emma, was saying that she sometimes would have so many messages coming to her from so she was on so many different. Um, she was involved in so many different texting conversations online she couldn't remember one.
Speaker 1:She couldn't remember, and she didn't know what she'd said last time and I think she just threw her hands up in the air and then ghosted all of them I think so and I think yeah, but I think women, I don't know what would make it. Let's go, let's take a specific example and get out of the generic area, okay. So let's just say you see my picture me not you. You're now an avatar okay oh my god, how was I supposed?
Speaker 2:to work that out okay.
Speaker 1:Well, obviously we're not talking about us. We've been in a relationship over 30 years. If you ghost me, I'll track you down. I will hunt you down.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, I know that would be difficult, wouldn't it? It would.
Speaker 1:Also, I would know where you were, because Ryder would be looking in the last direction. You went the dog, and where's it?
Speaker 2:But, anyways. So let's just okay. You're an avatar and I am as well. I'm an archetype, okay.
Speaker 1:And you have seen my picture online and I'm as I am wildly attractive, yes, gorgeous. Yeah, just beautiful, Just beautiful. And you thought oh, what have you thought?
Speaker 2:Hang on a second. Let me just make sure I'm single.
Speaker 1:Yes, you're not married to me, right, I'm not married to you.
Speaker 2:Oh, you may be, I'm a clean skin.
Speaker 1:Hey, hang on, maybe you are married. Come on, you've got to define the avatar. I'm giving you a character background.
Speaker 2:That's complicating, it isn't?
Speaker 1:it, he's not married.
Speaker 2:You're just let's say that I'm just, yeah, I'm available.
Speaker 1:You're in your 50s. You're available.
Speaker 2:I'm in my 50s and I see your photograph and I go and.
Speaker 1:I'm way too old and you want someone in their 20s, which is such a piss off for women.
Speaker 2:No, no, hang on a minute 30s.
Speaker 1:They do. It's horrible.
Speaker 2:You're architecting my avatar.
Speaker 1:You're in your 50s.
Speaker 2:I'm in my 50s and I'm looking for a younger woman. Yeah, they all are. Why would I?
Speaker 1:do that Because you are an anomaly. The fact that you've gone for somebody slightly older it's just down to me being amazing and beautiful and clever.
Speaker 2:And entertaining.
Speaker 1:But let's just imagine you're a normal man and you're in your 50s.
Speaker 2:I'm a normal 50-year-old who's divorced and I's divorced and I'm looking for a 25-year-old.
Speaker 1:No okay, I'm going to give you a 35-year-old.
Speaker 2:A 35-year-old. That's sensible, Because they don't want anybody their own age. It's revolting, but it's true. Okay, all right, so you did when you were 35. Pretty, it's a bit like you know, your ageing stopped at the age of 35. That's good, darling.
Speaker 1:That's very good.
Speaker 2:So I'm looking at that face and I'm going look, she looks smart, she looks smart, she's interesting.
Speaker 1:Very warm.
Speaker 2:Looks like she's got a good sense of humour, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:How do you get that? How do you pick that up from the photo?
Speaker 2:You can just see from the slight curve of her lip. Oh my God, stop, it's revolting. The light in her eyes, what oh?
Speaker 1:God Don't. It's a wonder we ever got together honestly, sometimes with all that charm, no, no.
Speaker 2:But that's what you're looking for. You know you're looking for. And again, I mean this is Confirmation bias and first impressions and all of that kind of stuff. All of those biases are involved here. I mean the fact is that when you look at somebody's face you really don't know anything about them. You know absolutely nothing. But we think we do.
Speaker 1:Yes, as we know we think we do, we will make a lightning quick decision on what that person is like based on and we will call it a gut instinct, will we not? But in fact it's based on stored memories, like a pastiche of stored memories, positive or negative. That notion of you can pick up what somebody's like in the first few minutes of meeting them is complete crap.
Speaker 2:Is it really?
Speaker 1:What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Doesn't it depend on how finely tuned your radar is? No, what are you saying? That everybody, even the most emotionally intelligent, you know, sensitive, discerning, genuinely intuitive creature Like?
Speaker 1:me Like you.
Speaker 2:I think that you pride yourself on being able to read people really quickly.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm often wrong. Are you? Oh sure, when we initially meet somebody, we will have what we would call a gut reaction to that person? Yes, true, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, we Not everybody would.
Speaker 1:No, okay.
Speaker 2:Some people don't have a gut reaction, but those who do will experience a sense of what they will have, they will experience a sense of I know what this person is like.
Speaker 1:Now, as we know, don't, don't as we know um intuitive responses in an environment, so so quick thinking responses in an environment that you're highly attuned, acclimatized and exposed to, are more likely to be accurate.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but not foolproof, not foolproof Like if you're a casting director, right. If you're a casting director director, and your job is about spotting talent, matching the qualities of an actor to the character that they're going to play. If that's your profession, then you probably get really good at it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you get good at it.
Speaker 2:And you can tell in the first 30 seconds whether this person is right for the role or not.
Speaker 1:You can, but across, say, a group of 100, right, let's say you've done it a hundred times. We are going to get better at making that intuitive response, but we're still going to get it wrong sometimes. Someone like me who has spent a lot of time evaluating people really, really quickly and as an actor I'm very tuned in as well to quirks, impulses, characteristics, and just remembering that, this response that we have, that we call the gut response, right, or intuition. Or intuition is not some spiritual bit of high ground that has been handed down to us, it is a function of memory.
Speaker 2:That's right.
Speaker 1:So intuition is a fancy word for memory. So if I meet you, yes, I'm going to roll, don't interrupt. Okay. If I meet you, my brain is going to do a lightning quick assessment through the filing cabinets in my head and come up with similar characteristics of somebody people have met before, and then I will decide I either like you or I don't like you. Based on that, I have a good feeling or I don't have a good feeling about you. Now, the thing about that is I might be right or I might be wrong, but women especially are told and I've said this about a million times that the intuition is sacrosanct, that the intuition is accurate and it's bullshit. No, it's not, yeah, and our critical thinking is suspended in the face of charm.
Speaker 2:Yes, Go on. Intuition is a function that enables people to make lightning quick decisions, as you say, when they have had experience in a certain environment.
Speaker 1:Correct, correct.
Speaker 2:Or experiences with certain kind of relationships.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:There is something that is essential to that mechanism and I think that this is interesting to that mechanism and I think that this is interesting and that is that you only develop accurate intuition when you get feedback. When you get feedback. So if you meet somebody and you make a judgment around whether you can trust them or not, and then you enter into a relationship and your heart is broken, that broken heart is feedback, that your judgments were incorrect. So you don't develop intuition just by having experience after experience after experience. What is required is that you get feedback, either gross feedback or very subtle feedback. That is how your intuition is trained. That's how your intuition actually improves.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, right, that's interesting, okay. So I mean, if you think about Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, yes. Everybody should read Malcolm Gladwell's Blink. Yes, Everybody should read Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, and he does posit this very well, that of course we need system one thinking yes, we have to have it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:But you know people, can you know? There's interesting examples of someone who has looked at this statue which, for all the world, you know, looks like it's been dug out of the ground and it's amazingly genuine of the ground. And it's amazingly genuine and in fact it's a fake. And they can pick it. Yes, they can pick it in 0.5 of a second.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:The reason that they can pick it is they've been looking at statues from that historical period. Yes, right so.
Speaker 2:And their judgments about whether it's fake or whether it has been real has been informed by continual feedback, feedback.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right. I don't think we're very good with that, with relationships.
Speaker 2:Well, that's because we don't want to take the feedback we don't want to take the feedback Because there's something more important that says I will excuse that you know, or I won't even see it because I don't want to see that I am now again in the company of somebody who doesn't take my best interests at heart.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that is, you know, hope. What's the expression? Hope over?
Speaker 2:I was thinking about. Hope springs eternal.
Speaker 1:Hope springs eternal. We want to be loved, we want to find the one, we want to be in a relationship with someone who is loving, caring, um, considerate, funny, hard working, earning a good income, all of the above. And so what we do is things arise in the relationship that don't fit that particular framework and we just we exclude them from the frame because we don't look that particular framework and we just we exclude them from the frame because we don't want to look at it. And then we wonder why things go wrong.
Speaker 2:That's right yeah.
Speaker 1:So back to this notion that you have seen me online.
Speaker 2:Seen your photo and I look really good. She looks great.
Speaker 1:I look great. And then what happens? And then you message me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, is that how they do it. You send them a message and say, listen, I'd like to meet up?
Speaker 1:Yeah no, then we do a bit of chit-chat and God, we've got so much in common.
Speaker 2:That's right, it's great, I tell you what you know.
Speaker 1:I'd love to take you on a picnic to Clifton Gardens oh gee, far out. No, I would know immediately, that would annoy me. But Clifton Gardens are, oh, I'd have to end up packing things.
Speaker 2:On a beautiful day. No, I'll take care of it. No, you won't. I'll bring a barbecue chicken and some salad. Oh God, Bottle of Prosecco.
Speaker 1:Oh God, no, don't drink. You see, you didn't bother to find that out did you Okay okay, well, I'll bring. Okay, hang on, so let's go back. So we're there, and then we've had this chatting and we're getting on really well.
Speaker 2:Yes, we've got all this stuff. Oh, we're getting on well. Now You're not telling me that my plan's to take it to Cooketon.
Speaker 1:We haven't got to the picnic bit yet. Okay, right, we're just chatting, we're getting on well, right, and then you say let's meet up, looked at what's going on for me.
Speaker 2:I need to deconstruct that, do I? Because there are layers of it.
Speaker 1:Don't over-talk.
Speaker 2:Just come on. Okay, there are many layers.
Speaker 1:One layer one.
Speaker 2:Okay, she's attractive Good good, and then yep. Layer two Yep, you know I probably won't be bored. It'll be an interesting conversation.
Speaker 1:Layer three. Layer three I'll probably be able to get her into the sack quite quickly.
Speaker 2:What I'd like to be able to get her into the sack. She looks easy, she looks like a soft touch, you can't say easy. Just tap her on the head and the clothes will fall off.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:Okay, okay. Now this is dangerous, because if I was to say, yeah, that's a thought that occurs, of course, it occurs, of course.
Speaker 1:The men Well, it can occur. Okay, let's just say it's occurred.
Speaker 2:Okay, I can inhabit that space, you are very good. Like I can play the murderous Richard III right, I can imagine what it's like to look at a photo and go, yeah, she'd be easy to get in the sack, Good, good good. Therefore, I'm going to take a risk and ask her out.
Speaker 1:Okay. So let's just and at this moment you're hopeful. Yeah, I am Okay. Have you got other people at the same time that you're communicating with on the apps?
Speaker 2:What I'm spreading my bets.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I reckon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, so there are. How many can I have? Oh, it's so lucky you're married. How widely do I spread my bets? You've?
Speaker 1:got four going.
Speaker 2:Four going at the same time.
Speaker 1:And they're all yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:Hang on, do they all have different names? Yes, david, oh, that's good. It's terrible when you've got two prospects and they have the same name.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, yeah, they're all called Jennifer.
Speaker 2:They're all Jennifer. No, they're not. They've all got different names. They're all different, Right? So?
Speaker 1:listen, you've got four going.
Speaker 2:And are they all the same age?
Speaker 1:They're all younger than you, right Can.
Speaker 2:I have a spread. Can I go from 28 to say 32?
Speaker 1:No, that's revolting.
Speaker 2:That's a fairly narrow Okay right 35 to 40.
Speaker 1:Hang on. Do I know that you're spreading your bets?
Speaker 2:No, of course not. Why would I tell you that I'd be less likely to get you in the sack if you knew that? I had other ones on the go.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right. So I don't know this and it's going really well.
Speaker 2:It's going well, yeah, and you're feeling something chance I could be one in four chance that this could lead to something and what is the something?
Speaker 1:what do you want?
Speaker 2:well, that that I then go from you, make the, the short list, and now there's only two people that I'm stringing along, um, and then I make the. It's like an episode of the bachelor, isn't it, you know? And then I, and then I, and then I, because I give roses to four, then to two, and then I just give one final rose to you, and that's a possibility.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, that's a possibility. So then we go on and okay, but I'm attractive, and you think it's going well, but you're sort of hopeful.
Speaker 2:I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1:You've got some dopamine. You've got some anticipatory chemical stuff going on in your brain.
Speaker 2:I am actually a bit hopeful. You know you could maybe be the right one To do what To have a relationship a long-term relationship a relationship or not really well, isn't that why I'm on the dating apps?
Speaker 1:well, I don't know, is it, or do you just want to? Okay, so look I you think you do I definitely think that I want a relationship.
Speaker 2:I'm not I'm not one of the what you know one percent of disgusting sociopaths who are going on the dating apps just for sport and to hurt people and to self-aggrandize actually no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1:You've gone too far, yeah, yeah. You could be wanting to just have a fun time and go out with a whole lot of women, or you could be wanting a relationship.
Speaker 2:So I'm in the middle of the bell curve of people who actually are open to having a relationship, because I have bought into the idea that it would be better to grow old with somebody than on my own.
Speaker 1:You just want someone to take you to the doctor Hang on. You do. You want someone to drive you to a specialist? No, no, no and to wheel you around when you've had your hip replaced.
Speaker 2:No someone to you know do the crossword at 11 o'clock in the morning, where we have tea and Tim Tams together.
Speaker 1:Jesus, god, almighty, you're the worst.
Speaker 2:You know, we could go on one of those European You're back at a picnic. We could go on one of those European river cruises. Cruises, oh my God, you know. All right when we could have our deck chairs, oh my gosh. And they could bring us some, you know masala.
Speaker 1:Okay, all right.
Speaker 2:So Okay alright.
Speaker 1:So I'm thinking a serious long term relationship, then you meet me.
Speaker 2:You say do you want to go out? You always like to go out.
Speaker 1:So then you take me, for we go to dinner, and it's a really nice dinner.
Speaker 2:It's a lovely dinner.
Speaker 1:Are you having a good time with me?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I am having a good time and I'm thinking, okay, go for it, invite Annie For a camping trip, let's go away. Okay, so we're having this lovely. I'm thinking, okay, go for it, invite Annie for a camping trip, let's go away, jesus Christ. Okay, so we're having this lovely dinner.
Speaker 1:I'm not going on away on a camping trip with you. I barely know you.
Speaker 2:Let's have a camping trip up into the Blue Mountains. No, I'm not a psychopath.
Speaker 1:Listen.
Speaker 2:What.
Speaker 1:You're not inviting anybody camping, we're just having dinner. Forget the camping.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm having dinner, because you're about to ghost me. I know, because it's because you don't want to go camping. I make a perfectly reasonable suggestion and your response to it, your response there's no way I could ever go camping and then I go. Okay, well, probably this isn't the girl for me then no, no, no, she hasn't made the cut.
Speaker 1:You have not done this properly. We're going to go back. We're at dinner. La-di-la-di-la-di-la.
Speaker 2:Okay, right.
Speaker 1:And then you say would you like to catch up again?
Speaker 2:Would you like to catch up again?
Speaker 1:And at this moment, you do want to catch up, do I? Yes, okay, go, go, go. Look, this was fun, it was fun.
Speaker 2:I think I've probably got to get you home because you've got a big day tomorrow, as you've told me. I was listening in the conversation.
Speaker 1:So you've got good listening skills, I've got good listening skills.
Speaker 2:You know, let me get you home, but Annie, You've got to ask for my number.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you've got to ask for my number.
Speaker 2:Haven't I got your number.
Speaker 1:No, we went to communicating on the apps.
Speaker 2:All right. I mean, would you feel comfortable to give me your number?
Speaker 1:What's your name? What we haven't covered, that yet no, in the scene I've got to yeah. Justin.
Speaker 2:No, call me Bruce.
Speaker 1:No, I'm not calling you Bruce. Oh, I'm not calling you Bruce, I went out with a Bruce, oh, okay. Henry.
Speaker 2:Christian.
Speaker 1:No, I went out with a Christian.
Speaker 2:Dean. I went out with a Dean. Oh goodness me Elvis.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:Oh.
Speaker 1:Can't you just come up with a John, okay.
Speaker 2:All right, john, you've never went out with a John.
Speaker 1:Actually I did.
Speaker 2:You did.
Speaker 1:Okay, this is looking quite bad, isn't it? I'm going to call you Jeremy.
Speaker 2:How many partners did you have?
Speaker 1:before me, not partners, just a bit of data.
Speaker 2:Okay, jeremy, annie, are you Annie? No, no, you're Maud, not Maud. Maud and Jeremy, don't you think no?
Speaker 1:Jeremy and I am because I've been writing my book. My head is full of names. My name is Madeline Madeline.
Speaker 2:Madeline Maddie. Can I call you Maddie?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, look, this has been great, maddie, maddie Thanks.
Speaker 1:Jeremy.
Speaker 2:Would you like to do it again? Okay?
Speaker 1:That'd be great, Jeremy.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean yeah, it has been good. As you know, I've had a bit of a time of it on the apps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, let's drop the apps. What's the best way to get in contact with you? You know? Do you like email, text message? Like to call? How do you like to communicate?
Speaker 1:It's killing me, it's your face.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, this is great.
Speaker 1:You look so hopeful.
Speaker 2:I am hopeful. All right, you could be the one.
Speaker 1:All right, I guess yeah look, I'll just give you my number.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I've got to go to Melbourne on the weekend, as you know, oh really, as discussed.
Speaker 2:What are you going to Melbourne for again? Work, work. Are you On the weekend? Gee, you're dedicated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I am. So I've got to work, but I'll be back. Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 2:Okay so.
Speaker 1:I'll give you a call on Monday. Hey, that steak was delicious.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, you know it's a very expensive restaurant. I tell you what I do cook a good steak.
Speaker 1:Oh, do you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, rather than go to a restaurant next time, can I invite you over to my place and I could do my very best?
Speaker 1:ribeye Sure that'd be great.
Speaker 2:Okay, lovely Shall, I call you on Monday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that'd be great Nice and that was good. Thanks, jeremy.
Speaker 2:It's a delight, Maddy.
Speaker 1:Okay, Now come Monday.
Speaker 2:Come Monday.
Speaker 1:Now, come Monday, I'm back from my trip and I've got my phone in my left hand and I keep checking to see and nothing has come from you. Nothing comes all Monday, nothing comes all Tuesday, nothing comes all Wednesday. What's going on for you?
Speaker 2:Well, it must have been because the date I had on Saturday night made me think that actually Catherine is more likely to be the woman of my dreams, because when we went out, you know, we discussed our interests.
Speaker 1:Hang on. What night did you go with me Friday? Went out with you on Friday night. Yeah, you didn't mention anything about it. You said you were going to drop the apps. So at that moment, when you said, alright, let's get off the apps.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, let's get off the apps.
Speaker 1:And I'll call you on Monday.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah and I'll cook you a steak.
Speaker 1:Did you mean that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:And then what happened to that meaningful conversation?
Speaker 2:Look, I got a message from Catherine.
Speaker 1:And then what happened in your brain?
Speaker 2:You know why not? You know, it was kind of fun. Last time I met Catherine. She wants to go to a concert. You know, it's a band that I've been dying to see for quite some time and I thought, yeah, what the heck, I'll go to the concert.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and then what?
Speaker 2:And then, well, you know, it was a fantastic concert, you know, full of dopamine, tremendously exciting, and I guess something shifted in my heart, in my mind, in my nervous system, about the way that I feel about Catherine. It was great, it was surprising.
Speaker 1:So you've been out with me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you're great.
Speaker 1:At the time you meant the offer to cook steak at home.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1:But then you've been out with somebody else.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And then the excitement of that, and the dopamine reward system was fired off.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And is that because also your experience with Catherine is more recent? So is it the recency effect, is it more active in your mind?
Speaker 2:Okay, look, there are a few things that I think would elevate Catherine as a prospect. Yes, indeed, the recency effect Explain the recency effect.
Speaker 1:Explain the recency effect?
Speaker 2:Well, the recency effect is that we do tend to value the things and remember the things and are more sort of psychologically engaged with the things that happened recently. So on Sunday, after having the evening with Catherine, which was supercharged with dopamine. This is another thing that can happen with attraction that when you have an experience that is exciting and fun and you start to then include the resonance of that excitement and fun whenever you think about that person yeah right, it sort of gets conflated.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:So the recency effect. I had the dopamine effect Also. The fact is that Catherine did the scarcity thing with me, which I did have a nice meal with her a couple of weeks ago and she was very restrained in how much she was communicating with me.
Speaker 2:So this message from Catherine came out of the blue and it's like, oh my goodness, I never thought that she'd call me. I feel a bit special and like I've won the lottery. This message from Catherine came out of the blue and it's like, oh my goodness, I never thought that she'd call me. I feel a bit special and like I've won the lottery.
Speaker 1:So again, that elevates her in terms of, you know, desire and attractability. Well, it's the whole thing, isn't it? Availability and consistency with someone unfortunately keys into the notion of hedonic adaptation. As soon as we have something we've, we have it and we've adapted. So maybe the fact that I'm not making me wrong, by the way, no, but maybe this is just what happens.
Speaker 2:This is just what happens?
Speaker 1:Okay, so then all right. So you've seen Catherine. Catherine, yes, and what's happening in your brain.
Speaker 2:Has my presence just taken up less space in your brain, or the memory of the Friday night, or it's clear to me that if I'm going to have this relationship with Catherine, I can't have you over at my place and me cooking for you. So while I'm still not sure that Catherine is 100% at the moment, she's at the top of the list, and so I better just kind of keep you in abeyance, you know, just to make sure that you don't?
Speaker 1:Well, you've ghosted me totally.
Speaker 2:I'll never hear from you again.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, I had to, and okay, so you had to. So at the time that you said the things about the steak, yes.
Speaker 2:You meant it, I did.
Speaker 1:But then what's happened is so you meant that at the time, but then something else has come in that has superseded that experience, and so you've decided you just are not interested in me anymore.
Speaker 2:Not interested in you as my priority prospect.
Speaker 1:So how much of your brain is occupied by the fact that I probably has hurt my feelings?
Speaker 2:Well, that depends on what the thought of Catherine is doing to my nervous system. Like it could be that Catherine has absolutely now bowled me over, and if that's the case, then my entire nervous system is full of sensations that are about her and just not you. So you no longer register in that part of me that says you know, this is an important person, this is an important you know important relationship.
Speaker 1:So let's just imagine it gets to the Thursday.
Speaker 2:Yep.
Speaker 1:And here's me back being. Who am I? Maddy.
Speaker 2:Madeline yeah.
Speaker 1:Madeline and I've been waiting for four days and the sense of urgency in me is increasing. I'm getting really. I'm starting to feel really agitated. I'm upset, I feel let down, I'm sad and I'm a bit angry. So then I message you and go really friendly. I took a really long time to construct this message. It's like super casual hey, just wondering if you still want to catch up, was fun the other night, and you receive that on your phone.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what do you do with it? I roll my eyes and start to squirm. Actually, I mean again, I'm playing a character so consistent with what you've just described. I start to squirm a little bit, which is to go uh-oh loose end. Clearly she's been waiting for me to get in contact. I did promise a steak dinner. I really don't want to go ahead with that. What am I going to do? So there's a spectrum of choices.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you don't get back to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I won't get back to you. And the reason why I don't get back to you is that I'm just hoping that you get the message Go away and that you'll go away and then you'll move on, get on with your life. Yeah, get on with your life, and you know somebody else.
Speaker 1:And so let's just say okay, but are you worried about hurting me? Okay, from this persona I'm not talking about you because you would never do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm saying look, the worry that I have is that, look, you're going to be upset, but let's say that I'm only worried. I'm only worried about the fact that you might cause trouble for me from being upset. You know, you could turn out to be a bunny boiler, you could start stalking me and that's why I'm worried. So it's a, it's a self-centered, defensive response that I'm describing at the moment. All right, or, or I could, or I could, you know, arguably feel really sad and send you about, you know, try and apologize with flowers and, and you know, introduce you to my best mate, or something like that. I mean, all of these things are possible, but I think probably the most typical thing would be yeah, I've got a bit of a problem, I'm going to continue ghosting you so that you get the message and I just don't have to deal with it.
Speaker 1:I want to avoid it, all right, so that's really good. So I think we're going to do more on this because I think it's a really interesting space for us to be and also you have to go and take the dog to the vet because he hurt his paw yes so you have to go now, and I have to go because I've got to go into the city but I get.
Speaker 2:I. I mean, if I could just summarize where I think we're at um. What I am feeling at the moment, as I describe my behavior, is that I am careless, you know, not necessarily vindictive. I don't want to hurt you, I don't want to punish you, I don't want to humiliate you.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But unfortunately I am allowing myself to be culpably careless.
Speaker 1:Good, I like that Culpably careless. All right, right then. So thank you, I thought that was really interesting. I think we should do more on that.
Speaker 2:Okay, or people could just watch the Bachelorette.
Speaker 1:Yeah, just watch the Bachelorette.
Speaker 2:Or maths or something like that. All right.
Speaker 1:So we will continue this conversation because I think it's really good, but we both have to go now because we're so busy and important. Thank you very much for tuning in wherever you are in the world. If you are having a miserable time on the apps, or if anybody you know is having a miserable time on the apps, please send them this podcast, because we need to start exploring some of these psychological indices that are affecting the way we operate online and, in fact, in the world. Is indices the right word?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1:That's why you've stayed with me, isn't it? Because my vocabulary is really good.
Speaker 2:It is absolutely magnificent. Thank you, are you sure you don't want to go camping with me on the King's birthday weekend? I really don't, but it'd be so much fun. I don't want to Back to nature.
Speaker 1:I don't. I like to walk in nature and then get somewhere with a shower and a person bringing me food and a drink that I'll be polite to. Yeah, but you do much for tuning in, stay safe. Thank you so much for tuning in. Stay well, stay safe and keep your critical thinking hats on. See ya Bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.
Speaker 1:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later.
Speaker 1:This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
