Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Bonus Ep: Been ghosted online? Better listen in….
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Have you ever been ghosted? That moment when someone you've been talking to simply vanishes without explanation, leaving you wondering what went wrong? In this fascinating exploration of modern relationships, Annie McCubbin and her guest David delve into the psychology behind "ghosting" – that increasingly common phenomenon where people disappear from our lives without closure.
Join Annie and her husband David for a more relaxed, behind-the-scenes chat. It’s the stuff that doesn’t always make it into the main pod — candid convos, sharp takes, a few laughs, and plenty of honest thinking. Think less structured, more real. If you enjoy the main show, you’ll love hearing these two bounce off each other in a more personal, unfiltered way.
🙋♀️ Meet with Annie - go.oncehub.com/AnnieMcCubbin
Proudly sponsored by COUP — helping brands cut through the noise with bold, smart marketing. Visit the http://coup.co website or book a meeting with us at. https://go.oncehub.com/RequestMeeting
Introduction to Why Smart Women
Speaker 1You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Meet David: Discussing Relationships
Speaker 1I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome to the second of our bonus episodes. These episodes are going to be in addition to our weekly episodes, which come out on a Tuesday, and in these bonus episodes I am going to be chatting all things relational with David hello hello.
Speaker 1Now it can be in intimate relationships. It can be any relationships you can think of, including geopolitical. Yeah, we can go as big or as little as we like. Yes, indeed, but this week I thought what we'd concentrate on was the notion of ghosting. In the second part of my chat with Karen, we talked about Karen Bikusma.
What Is Ghosting?
Speaker 1Karen Bikusma. With Karen, we talked about what happens to women when they get ghosted by a man online and what they should do about that and what's happening to their brain chemistry. And I thought, as I'm not male and not that you are representative of all men, but I thought we could just have a little chat about why would men do it? First of all, what is ghosting? What is ghosting?
Speaker 2What is ghosting?
Speaker 1Yeah, what is online ghosting?
Speaker 2You explain it Well. I mean ghosting. It occurs when you believe that you've established a relationship with somebody and in all good relationships you communicate backwards and forwards a relationship with somebody, and in all good relationships you communicate backwards and forwards but if one partner in that relationship decides that they're just going to disappear and not return any messages, not show up, not call, not do anything, basically become a ghost.
Speaker 1That's ghosting and I guess it's interesting because we are going to talk about it in in terms of online dating, but I have been hearing about in the job market, people have also been ghosted, sometimes by recruiters and sometimes by someone that they've been having a communication with.
Speaker 2Yeah, like a prospective client or something like that. You've had a really great meeting, you think that you're heading in a really great direction, and then they don't respond to any emails. They don't pick up the phone when you call them. You are being ghosted professionally.
Speaker 1It's so rude. It's so rude. Also, a friend of mine was telling me that her husband had been approached by a recruiter. He was looking for a job and then they'd been sort of having this conversation and then the recruiter ghosted him, even though he actually initiated the relationship in the first place, which is really weird. The whole thing's weird and it's rude, david, it's really rude.
Speaker 2Well, I mean it's rude when you're the person who is being ghosted.
Speaker 1It's rude anyway.
Speaker 2Yes, you could argue that. And cowardly yes, you could argue that.
Speaker 1And cowardly, yes, you could argue that it's really cowardly, Like get on the phone and put the person get online and put the person out of their misery. It's disgusting, Anyway, what do we think what's driving? And do we think that there is a? I think there's more a proliferation of men doing it to women online, as opposed to the opposite.
Is Ghosting Gendered?
Speaker 2Well, let me think Now I recall my dating years a very, very, very long time ago, and I certainly remember being ghosted.
Speaker 1No, what, yeah, I mean, how would you ghost back then?
Speaker 2How would you? Well, you just wouldn't. You wouldn't return a phone call. That was the primary way that we used to talk to each other. You know they wouldn't ever return a phone call. You'd leave messages on the answering machine. You'd come home. Remember that.
Speaker 2You'd come home and you'd turn on the answering machine and hoping that it would either be a call from your agent saying that you've got an audition or that you've got the job, or it was that lovely girl that you met in the pub the other day and you exchanged phone numbers and you had a great chat and you sent them a message and you asked if you would like to go on a picnic together and you got nothing.
Speaker 1No wonder she didn't get back to you. That is so lame and daggy. What were you thinking?
Speaker 2But I am saying that I don't think the experience of being ghosted is new, nor is it exclusively gendered, although I would certainly I'm just looking it up, you keep talking. Okay, well, I would certainly own up to the fact that it's probably something in terms of the numbers. Are you looking up the numbers?
Speaker 1Here we go. What, oh, hang on, whoa, here we go, uh-oh, uh-oh.
Speaker 2Stand by. You know, some surprising, shocking research is about to be shared by Annie. Okay, here we go.
Speaker 1Here we go.
Speaker 2Hang on. Who's the source?
Speaker 1Never mind about that. Well, there's no definitive data, so starting with that, there's no definitive data.
Speaker 2Okay, so it's all anecdotal?
Speaker 1Yeah, but they haven't had time to collect the data. Well, there's no definitive data comparing ghosting rates between men and women. Some studies and observations suggest that women may be more likely to engage in ghosting, particularly in the context of online dating. This could be due to various factors, including the sheer volume of messages women receive on dating apps, which makes it difficult to respond to everyone. Additionally, some argue that ghosting might be a way for people to avoid difficult conversations or potential hurt feelings.
Speaker 2I think that's the reason why the ghoster does it. You know they want to avoid a difficult conversation. They want to avoid telling somebody no, look, I don't want to see you again because you didn't impress me that much, which is hurtful. So it's probably the easiest thing to do is to avoid any kind of contact.
Speaker 1A 2018 survey indicated that women across different age groups were more likely to ghost than men. Okay, so this is really really. Cultural norms and expectations about how people should handle rejection might also play a role in ghosting behavior. All right.
Speaker 2Now that complicates things. I've got a hypothesis Go on as to why. All right, because was that study about people who are in the relationship apps?
Speaker 1Well, david, I read it to you yeah, okay, and that's all it said. Okay, all right.
Speaker 2I don't know, I think so, okay so if that's the case, then we're not talking about, you know, all women ghosting all men. We're talking about a subset.
Speaker 2We're talking about women who might make contact with somebody through a dating app with a gentleman who has made himself available to the dating app rather than seeking to develop a relationship in the real world. Could it be that when women actually meet the person behind the photograph in that particular environment, they are just immediately disappointed with the quality of the person that they've met and would rather not see them again?
Speaker 1Hang on, hang on. Have they met the person online or they've met them in the flesh?
Speaker 2No, no, this is the online dating thing.
Speaker 1Yeah, but are they just still online? They haven't gone out for a drink or anything.
Speaker 2Okay, so they go out for a drink.
Speaker 1Yeah, but they're just still online.
Speaker 2They haven't gone out for a drink, or anything.
Speaker 1Okay, so they go out for a drink. Okay, let's go out for a drink. Hi, hi, there, hi.
Gut Feelings & First Impressions
Speaker 2And then you notice that I'm wearing a cheap watch Cheap watch that I got from Kmart. Yeah that I split the bill and I'm rude to the waitress. I've noticed this. Yeah, you've noticed that. Okay, so when?
Speaker 1you? What did you say to the waitress? Oh, you know, are you ready for? Can I get you anything else? Sir, I'm being the waitress, okay.
Speaker 2No, can't you see that we're having a conversation? Here, I do not like to be interrupted.
Speaker 1That was a terrible acting.
Speaker 2Let's try that, okay.
Speaker 1Okay, can I get you anything else, sir? Finally, do you know how long?
Speaker 2we have been sitting here waiting to get your attention. Yeah, that's horrible. I hate you. Yeah, mm-hmm. So if a gentleman who has joined the dating app and has got this date because of that and they had that first meeting if he reveals his true character, she might ghost him, she might ghost him, she might ghost him. And why wouldn't she? I mean, is it better for her to call him up and say listen, the way that you talked to that waitress was really disappointing.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2I don't think I can have a relationship with you. No, you don't need to do that.
Speaker 1You don't need to do that. You don't need to extrapolate on what went wrong. Reasonable to say this is not going to work, but thank you. I know from our children when they were in that environment. They just politely ended it because they're raised by us.
Speaker 2And yet sometimes you can have a prospective romantic partner Well, they think they're a prospective romantic partner who is determined to keep at it. Sure, well, that's called stalking.
Speaker 1That's called stalking. Once you've actually said I'm not interested and they keep going on and on and on at you, then that's called stalking, because you're stomping all over their boundaries.
Speaker 2So is that an appropriate time to actually ghost that person who's doing it to you?
Speaker 1Sure, it's different, I guess what I'm talking about and I think, look, I don't know and this is anecdotal and I'm not relying on studies here and I think it would be so hard to do a study on this anyway, it would have to be observational studies but I think possibly let's just investigate the idea that the reason that men ghost might be different to the reason that women ghost. And my friend that I was having coffee with this morning from the gym, hello, emma, was saying that she sometimes would have so many messages coming to her from so she was on so many different. Um, she was involved in so many different texting conversations online she couldn't remember one.
Speaker 1She couldn't remember, and she didn't know what she'd said last time and I think she just threw her hands up in the air and then ghosted all of them I think so and I think yeah, but I think women, I don't know what would make it. Let's go, let's take a specific example and get out of the generic area, okay. So let's just say you see my picture me not you. You're now an avatar okay oh my god, how was I supposed?
Speaker 2to work that out okay.
Speaker 1Well, obviously we're not talking about us. We've been in a relationship over 30 years. If you ghost me, I'll track you down. I will hunt you down.
Speaker 2Yes, yeah, I know that would be difficult, wouldn't it? It would.
Speaker 1Also, I would know where you were, because Ryder would be looking in the last direction. You went the dog, and where's it?
Speaker 2But, anyways. So let's just okay. You're an avatar and I am as well. I'm an archetype, okay.
Speaker 1And you have seen my picture online and I'm as I am wildly attractive, yes, gorgeous. Yeah, just beautiful, Just beautiful. And you thought oh, what have you thought?
Speaker 2Hang on a second. Let me just make sure I'm single.
Speaker 1Yes, you're not married to me, right, I'm not married to you.
Speaker 2Oh, you may be, I'm a clean skin.
Speaker 1Hey, hang on, maybe you are married. Come on, you've got to define the avatar. I'm giving you a character background.
Speaker 2That's complicating, it isn't?
Speaker 1it, he's not married.
Speaker 2You're just let's say that I'm just, yeah, I'm available.
Speaker 1You're in your 50s. You're available.
Speaker 2I'm in my 50s and I see your photograph and I go and.
Speaker 1I'm way too old and you want someone in their 20s, which is such a piss off for women.
Speaker 2No, no, hang on a minute 30s.
Speaker 1They do. It's horrible.
Speaker 2You're architecting my avatar.
Speaker 1You're in your 50s.
Speaker 2I'm in my 50s and I'm looking for a younger woman. Yeah, they all are. Why would I?
Speaker 1do that Because you are an anomaly. The fact that you've gone for somebody slightly older it's just down to me being amazing and beautiful and clever.
Speaker 2And entertaining.
Speaker 1But let's just imagine you're a normal man and you're in your 50s.
Speaker 2I'm a normal 50-year-old who's divorced and I's divorced and I'm looking for a 25-year-old.
Speaker 1No okay, I'm going to give you a 35-year-old.
Speaker 2A 35-year-old. That's sensible, Because they don't want anybody their own age. It's revolting, but it's true. Okay, all right, so you did when you were 35. Pretty, it's a bit like you know, your ageing stopped at the age of 35. That's good, darling.
Speaker 1That's very good.
Speaker 2So I'm looking at that face and I'm going look, she looks smart, she looks smart, she's interesting.
Speaker 1Very warm.
Speaker 2Looks like she's got a good sense of humour, yeah, okay.
Speaker 1How do you get that? How do you pick that up from the photo?
Speaker 2You can just see from the slight curve of her lip. Oh my God, stop, it's revolting. The light in her eyes, what oh?
Speaker 1God Don't. It's a wonder we ever got together honestly, sometimes with all that charm, no, no.
Speaker 2But that's what you're looking for. You know you're looking for. And again, I mean this is Confirmation bias and first impressions and all of that kind of stuff. All of those biases are involved here. I mean the fact is that when you look at somebody's face you really don't know anything about them. You know absolutely nothing. But we think we do.
Speaker 1Yes, as we know we think we do, we will make a lightning quick decision on what that person is like based on and we will call it a gut instinct, will we not? But in fact it's based on stored memories, like a pastiche of stored memories, positive or negative. That notion of you can pick up what somebody's like in the first few minutes of meeting them is complete crap.
Speaker 2Is it really?
Speaker 1What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, I don't know.
Speaker 2Doesn't it depend on how finely tuned your radar is? No, what are you saying? That everybody, even the most emotionally intelligent, you know, sensitive, discerning, genuinely intuitive creature Like?
Speaker 1me Like you.
Speaker 2I think that you pride yourself on being able to read people really quickly.
Speaker 1Yeah, I'm often wrong. Are you? Oh sure, when we initially meet somebody, we will have what we would call a gut reaction to that person? Yes, true, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2Well, we Not everybody would.
Speaker 1No, okay.
Speaker 2Some people don't have a gut reaction, but those who do will experience a sense of what they will have, they will experience a sense of I know what this person is like.
Speaker 1Now, as we know, don't, don't as we know um intuitive responses in an environment, so so quick thinking responses in an environment that you're highly attuned, acclimatized and exposed to, are more likely to be accurate.
Speaker 2Right, yeah, yeah, yeah, but not foolproof, not foolproof Like if you're a casting director, right. If you're a casting director director, and your job is about spotting talent, matching the qualities of an actor to the character that they're going to play. If that's your profession, then you probably get really good at it.
Speaker 1Yeah, you get good at it.
How Intuition Really Works
Speaker 2And you can tell in the first 30 seconds whether this person is right for the role or not.
Speaker 1You can, but across, say, a group of 100, right, let's say you've done it a hundred times. We are going to get better at making that intuitive response, but we're still going to get it wrong sometimes. Someone like me who has spent a lot of time evaluating people really, really quickly and as an actor I'm very tuned in as well to quirks, impulses, characteristics, and just remembering that, this response that we have, that we call the gut response, right, or intuition. Or intuition is not some spiritual bit of high ground that has been handed down to us, it is a function of memory.
Speaker 2That's right.
Speaker 1So intuition is a fancy word for memory. So if I meet you, yes, I'm going to roll, don't interrupt. Okay. If I meet you, my brain is going to do a lightning quick assessment through the filing cabinets in my head and come up with similar characteristics of somebody people have met before, and then I will decide I either like you or I don't like you. Based on that, I have a good feeling or I don't have a good feeling about you. Now, the thing about that is I might be right or I might be wrong, but women especially are told and I've said this about a million times that the intuition is sacrosanct, that the intuition is accurate and it's bullshit. No, it's not, yeah, and our critical thinking is suspended in the face of charm.
Speaker 2Yes, Go on. Intuition is a function that enables people to make lightning quick decisions, as you say, when they have had experience in a certain environment.
Speaker 1Correct, correct.
Speaker 2Or experiences with certain kind of relationships.
Speaker 1Yes.
Speaker 2There is something that is essential to that mechanism and I think that this is interesting to that mechanism and I think that this is interesting and that is that you only develop accurate intuition when you get feedback. When you get feedback. So if you meet somebody and you make a judgment around whether you can trust them or not, and then you enter into a relationship and your heart is broken, that broken heart is feedback, that your judgments were incorrect. So you don't develop intuition just by having experience after experience after experience. What is required is that you get feedback, either gross feedback or very subtle feedback. That is how your intuition is trained. That's how your intuition actually improves.
Speaker 1Right, okay, right, that's interesting, okay. So I mean, if you think about Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, yes. Everybody should read Malcolm Gladwell's Blink. Yes, Everybody should read Malcolm Gladwell's Blink, and he does posit this very well, that of course we need system one thinking yes, we have to have it.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1But you know people, can you know? There's interesting examples of someone who has looked at this statue which, for all the world, you know, looks like it's been dug out of the ground and it's amazingly genuine of the ground. And it's amazingly genuine and in fact it's a fake. And they can pick it. Yes, they can pick it in 0.5 of a second.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1The reason that they can pick it is they've been looking at statues from that historical period. Yes, right so.
Speaker 2And their judgments about whether it's fake or whether it has been real has been informed by continual feedback, feedback.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's right. I don't think we're very good with that, with relationships.
Speaker 2Well, that's because we don't want to take the feedback we don't want to take the feedback Because there's something more important that says I will excuse that you know, or I won't even see it because I don't want to see that I am now again in the company of somebody who doesn't take my best interests at heart.
Speaker 1Yeah, and I think that is, you know, hope. What's the expression? Hope over?
Speaker 2I was thinking about. Hope springs eternal.
Speaker 1Hope springs eternal. We want to be loved, we want to find the one, we want to be in a relationship with someone who is loving, caring, um, considerate, funny, hard working, earning a good income, all of the above. And so what we do is things arise in the relationship that don't fit that particular framework and we just we exclude them from the frame because we don't look that particular framework and we just we exclude them from the frame because we don't want to look at it. And then we wonder why things go wrong.
Speaker 2That's right yeah.
Speaker 1So back to this notion that you have seen me online.
Speaker 2Seen your photo and I look really good. She looks great.
Speaker 1I look great. And then what happens? And then you message me.
Speaker 2Yeah, is that how they do it. You send them a message and say, listen, I'd like to meet up?
Speaker 1Yeah no, then we do a bit of chit-chat and God, we've got so much in common.
Speaker 2That's right, it's great, I tell you what you know.
Speaker 1I'd love to take you on a picnic to Clifton Gardens oh gee, far out. No, I would know immediately, that would annoy me. But Clifton Gardens are, oh, I'd have to end up packing things.
Speaker 2On a beautiful day. No, I'll take care of it. No, you won't. I'll bring a barbecue chicken and some salad. Oh God, Bottle of Prosecco.
Speaker 1Oh God, no, don't drink. You see, you didn't bother to find that out did you Okay okay, well, I'll bring. Okay, hang on, so let's go back. So we're there, and then we've had this chatting and we're getting on really well.
Speaker 2Yes, we've got all this stuff. Oh, we're getting on well. Now You're not telling me that my plan's to take it to Cooketon.
Speaker 1We haven't got to the picnic bit yet. Okay, right, we're just chatting, we're getting on well, right, and then you say let's meet up, looked at what's going on for me.
Speaker 2I need to deconstruct that, do I? Because there are layers of it.
Speaker 1Don't over-talk.
Speaker 2Just come on. Okay, there are many layers.
Speaker 1One layer one.
Speaker 2Okay, she's attractive Good good, and then yep. Layer two Yep, you know I probably won't be bored. It'll be an interesting conversation.
Speaker 1Layer three. Layer three I'll probably be able to get her into the sack quite quickly.
Speaker 2What I'd like to be able to get her into the sack. She looks easy, she looks like a soft touch, you can't say easy. Just tap her on the head and the clothes will fall off.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2Okay, okay. Now this is dangerous, because if I was to say, yeah, that's a thought that occurs, of course, it occurs, of course.
Speaker 1The men Well, it can occur. Okay, let's just say it's occurred.
Speaker 2Okay, I can inhabit that space, you are very good. Like I can play the murderous Richard III right, I can imagine what it's like to look at a photo and go, yeah, she'd be easy to get in the sack, Good, good good. Therefore, I'm going to take a risk and ask her out.
Speaker 1Okay. So let's just and at this moment you're hopeful. Yeah, I am Okay. Have you got other people at the same time that you're communicating with on the apps?
Speaker 2What I'm spreading my bets.
Speaker 1Yeah, I reckon.
Speaker 2Yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, yeah, so there are. How many can I have? Oh, it's so lucky you're married. How widely do I spread my bets? You've?
Speaker 1got four going.
Speaker 2Four going at the same time.
Speaker 1And they're all yeah, okay.
Speaker 2Hang on, do they all have different names? Yes, david, oh, that's good. It's terrible when you've got two prospects and they have the same name.
Speaker 1No, no, no, yeah, they're all called Jennifer.
Speaker 2They're all Jennifer. No, they're not. They've all got different names. They're all different, Right? So?
Speaker 1listen, you've got four going.
Speaker 2And are they all the same age?
Speaker 1They're all younger than you, right Can.
Speaker 2I have a spread. Can I go from 28 to say 32?
Speaker 1No, that's revolting.
Speaker 2That's a fairly narrow Okay right 35 to 40.
Speaker 1Hang on. Do I know that you're spreading your bets?
Speaker 2No, of course not. Why would I tell you that I'd be less likely to get you in the sack if you knew that? I had other ones on the go.
Speaker 1Okay, all right. So I don't know this and it's going really well.
Speaker 2It's going well, yeah, and you're feeling something chance I could be one in four chance that this could lead to something and what is the something?
Speaker 1what do you want?
Speaker 2well, that that I then go from you, make the, the short list, and now there's only two people that I'm stringing along, um, and then I make the. It's like an episode of the bachelor, isn't it, you know? And then I, and then I, and then I, because I give roses to four, then to two, and then I just give one final rose to you, and that's a possibility.
Speaker 1Oh, okay, that's a possibility. So then we go on and okay, but I'm attractive, and you think it's going well, but you're sort of hopeful.
Speaker 2I'm hopeful.
Speaker 1You've got some dopamine. You've got some anticipatory chemical stuff going on in your brain.
Speaker 2I am actually a bit hopeful. You know you could maybe be the right one To do what To have a relationship a long-term relationship a relationship or not really well, isn't that why I'm on the dating apps?
Speaker 1well, I don't know, is it, or do you just want to? Okay, so look I you think you do I definitely think that I want a relationship.
Speaker 2I'm not I'm not one of the what you know one percent of disgusting sociopaths who are going on the dating apps just for sport and to hurt people and to self-aggrandize actually no, no, no, no, no, no, no.
Speaker 1You've gone too far, yeah, yeah. You could be wanting to just have a fun time and go out with a whole lot of women, or you could be wanting a relationship.
Speaker 2So I'm in the middle of the bell curve of people who actually are open to having a relationship, because I have bought into the idea that it would be better to grow old with somebody than on my own.
Speaker 1You just want someone to take you to the doctor Hang on. You do. You want someone to drive you to a specialist? No, no, no and to wheel you around when you've had your hip replaced.
Speaker 2No someone to you know do the crossword at 11 o'clock in the morning, where we have tea and Tim Tams together.
Speaker 1Jesus, god, almighty, you're the worst.
Dating Apps & Ghosting Roleplay
Speaker 2You know, we could go on one of those European You're back at a picnic. We could go on one of those European river cruises. Cruises, oh my God, you know. All right when we could have our deck chairs, oh my gosh. And they could bring us some, you know masala.
Speaker 1Okay, all right.
Speaker 2So Okay alright.
Speaker 1So I'm thinking a serious long term relationship, then you meet me.
Speaker 2You say do you want to go out? You always like to go out.
Speaker 1So then you take me, for we go to dinner, and it's a really nice dinner.
Speaker 2It's a lovely dinner.
Speaker 1Are you having a good time with me?
Speaker 2Yeah, I am having a good time and I'm thinking, okay, go for it, invite Annie For a camping trip, let's go away. Okay, so we're having this lovely. I'm thinking, okay, go for it, invite Annie for a camping trip, let's go away, jesus Christ. Okay, so we're having this lovely dinner.
Speaker 1I'm not going on away on a camping trip with you. I barely know you.
Speaker 2Let's have a camping trip up into the Blue Mountains. No, I'm not a psychopath.
Speaker 1Listen.
Speaker 2What.
Speaker 1You're not inviting anybody camping, we're just having dinner. Forget the camping.
Speaker 2Okay, I'm having dinner, because you're about to ghost me. I know, because it's because you don't want to go camping. I make a perfectly reasonable suggestion and your response to it, your response there's no way I could ever go camping and then I go. Okay, well, probably this isn't the girl for me then no, no, no, she hasn't made the cut.
Speaker 1You have not done this properly. We're going to go back. We're at dinner. La-di-la-di-la-di-la.
Speaker 2Okay, right.
Speaker 1And then you say would you like to catch up again?
Speaker 2Would you like to catch up again?
Speaker 1And at this moment, you do want to catch up, do I? Yes, okay, go, go, go. Look, this was fun, it was fun.
Speaker 2I think I've probably got to get you home because you've got a big day tomorrow, as you've told me. I was listening in the conversation.
Speaker 1So you've got good listening skills, I've got good listening skills.
Speaker 2You know, let me get you home, but Annie, You've got to ask for my number.
Speaker 1Yeah, you've got to ask for my number.
Speaker 2Haven't I got your number.
Speaker 1No, we went to communicating on the apps.
Speaker 2All right. I mean, would you feel comfortable to give me your number?
Speaker 1What's your name? What we haven't covered, that yet no, in the scene I've got to yeah. Justin.
Speaker 2No, call me Bruce.
Speaker 1No, I'm not calling you Bruce. Oh, I'm not calling you Bruce, I went out with a Bruce, oh, okay. Henry.
Speaker 2Christian.
Speaker 1No, I went out with a Christian.
Speaker 2Dean. I went out with a Dean. Oh goodness me Elvis.
Speaker 1No.
Speaker 2Oh.
Speaker 1Can't you just come up with a John, okay.
Speaker 2All right, john, you've never went out with a John.
Speaker 1Actually I did.
Speaker 2You did.
Speaker 1Okay, this is looking quite bad, isn't it? I'm going to call you Jeremy.
Speaker 2How many partners did you have?
Speaker 1before me, not partners, just a bit of data.
Speaker 2Okay, jeremy, annie, are you Annie? No, no, you're Maud, not Maud. Maud and Jeremy, don't you think no?
Speaker 1Jeremy and I am because I've been writing my book. My head is full of names. My name is Madeline Madeline.
Speaker 2Madeline Maddie. Can I call you Maddie?
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2Okay, look, this has been great, maddie, maddie Thanks.
Speaker 1Jeremy.
Speaker 2Would you like to do it again? Okay?
Speaker 1That'd be great, Jeremy.
Speaker 2Okay.
Speaker 1Yeah, I mean yeah, it has been good. As you know, I've had a bit of a time of it on the apps.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah. Well, let's drop the apps. What's the best way to get in contact with you? You know? Do you like email, text message? Like to call? How do you like to communicate?
Speaker 1It's killing me, it's your face.
Speaker 2Yeah, no, this is great.
Speaker 1You look so hopeful.
Speaker 2I am hopeful. All right, you could be the one.
Speaker 1All right, I guess yeah look, I'll just give you my number.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1I've got to go to Melbourne on the weekend, as you know, oh really, as discussed.
Speaker 2What are you going to Melbourne for again? Work, work. Are you On the weekend? Gee, you're dedicated.
Speaker 1Yeah, I am. So I've got to work, but I'll be back. Yeah, that would be great.
Speaker 2Okay so.
Speaker 1I'll give you a call on Monday. Hey, that steak was delicious.
Speaker 2Yeah, well, you know it's a very expensive restaurant. I tell you what I do cook a good steak.
Speaker 1Oh, do you.
Speaker 2Yeah, I mean, rather than go to a restaurant next time, can I invite you over to my place and I could do my very best?
Speaker 1ribeye Sure that'd be great.
Speaker 2Okay, lovely Shall, I call you on Monday.
Speaker 1Yeah, that'd be great Nice and that was good. Thanks, jeremy.
Speaker 2It's a delight, Maddy.
Speaker 1Okay, Now come Monday.
Speaker 2Come Monday.
Speaker 1Now, come Monday, I'm back from my trip and I've got my phone in my left hand and I keep checking to see and nothing has come from you. Nothing comes all Monday, nothing comes all Tuesday, nothing comes all Wednesday. What's going on for you?
Speaker 2Well, it must have been because the date I had on Saturday night made me think that actually Catherine is more likely to be the woman of my dreams, because when we went out, you know, we discussed our interests.
Speaker 1Hang on. What night did you go with me Friday? Went out with you on Friday night. Yeah, you didn't mention anything about it. You said you were going to drop the apps. So at that moment, when you said, alright, let's get off the apps.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah, let's get off the apps.
Speaker 1And I'll call you on Monday.
Speaker 2Yeah, yeah and I'll cook you a steak.
Speaker 1Did you mean that?
Speaker 2Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1And then what happened to that meaningful conversation?
Speaker 2Look, I got a message from Catherine.
Speaker 1And then what happened in your brain?
Speaker 2You know why not? You know, it was kind of fun. Last time I met Catherine. She wants to go to a concert. You know, it's a band that I've been dying to see for quite some time and I thought, yeah, what the heck, I'll go to the concert.
Speaker 1Yeah, and then what?
Speaker 2And then, well, you know, it was a fantastic concert, you know, full of dopamine, tremendously exciting, and I guess something shifted in my heart, in my mind, in my nervous system, about the way that I feel about Catherine. It was great, it was surprising.
Speaker 1So you've been out with me.
Speaker 2Yeah, and you're great.
Speaker 1At the time you meant the offer to cook steak at home.
Speaker 2Yeah, I did.
Speaker 1But then you've been out with somebody else.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And then the excitement of that, and the dopamine reward system was fired off.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And is that because also your experience with Catherine is more recent? So is it the recency effect, is it more active in your mind?
Speaker 2Okay, look, there are a few things that I think would elevate Catherine as a prospect. Yes, indeed, the recency effect Explain the recency effect.
Speaker 1Explain the recency effect?
Speaker 2Well, the recency effect is that we do tend to value the things and remember the things and are more sort of psychologically engaged with the things that happened recently. So on Sunday, after having the evening with Catherine, which was supercharged with dopamine. This is another thing that can happen with attraction that when you have an experience that is exciting and fun and you start to then include the resonance of that excitement and fun whenever you think about that person yeah right, it sort of gets conflated.
Speaker 1Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2So the recency effect. I had the dopamine effect Also. The fact is that Catherine did the scarcity thing with me, which I did have a nice meal with her a couple of weeks ago and she was very restrained in how much she was communicating with me.
Speaker 2So this message from Catherine came out of the blue and it's like, oh my goodness, I never thought that she'd call me. I feel a bit special and like I've won the lottery. This message from Catherine came out of the blue and it's like, oh my goodness, I never thought that she'd call me. I feel a bit special and like I've won the lottery.
Speaker 1So again, that elevates her in terms of, you know, desire and attractability. Well, it's the whole thing, isn't it? Availability and consistency with someone unfortunately keys into the notion of hedonic adaptation. As soon as we have something we've, we have it and we've adapted. So maybe the fact that I'm not making me wrong, by the way, no, but maybe this is just what happens.
Speaker 2This is just what happens?
Speaker 1Okay, so then all right. So you've seen Catherine. Catherine, yes, and what's happening in your brain.
Speaker 2Has my presence just taken up less space in your brain, or the memory of the Friday night, or it's clear to me that if I'm going to have this relationship with Catherine, I can't have you over at my place and me cooking for you. So while I'm still not sure that Catherine is 100% at the moment, she's at the top of the list, and so I better just kind of keep you in abeyance, you know, just to make sure that you don't?
Speaker 1Well, you've ghosted me totally.
Speaker 2I'll never hear from you again.
Speaker 1Yeah, well, I had to, and okay, so you had to. So at the time that you said the things about the steak, yes.
Speaker 2You meant it, I did.
Speaker 1But then what's happened is so you meant that at the time, but then something else has come in that has superseded that experience, and so you've decided you just are not interested in me anymore.
Speaker 2Not interested in you as my priority prospect.
Speaker 1So how much of your brain is occupied by the fact that I probably has hurt my feelings?
Speaker 2Well, that depends on what the thought of Catherine is doing to my nervous system. Like it could be that Catherine has absolutely now bowled me over, and if that's the case, then my entire nervous system is full of sensations that are about her and just not you. So you no longer register in that part of me that says you know, this is an important person, this is an important you know important relationship.
Speaker 1So let's just imagine it gets to the Thursday.
Speaker 2Yep.
Speaker 1And here's me back being. Who am I? Maddy.
Speaker 2Madeline yeah.
Speaker 1Madeline and I've been waiting for four days and the sense of urgency in me is increasing. I'm getting really. I'm starting to feel really agitated. I'm upset, I feel let down, I'm sad and I'm a bit angry. So then I message you and go really friendly. I took a really long time to construct this message. It's like super casual hey, just wondering if you still want to catch up, was fun the other night, and you receive that on your phone.
Speaker 2Yeah, what do you do with it? I roll my eyes and start to squirm. Actually, I mean again, I'm playing a character so consistent with what you've just described. I start to squirm a little bit, which is to go uh-oh loose end. Clearly she's been waiting for me to get in contact. I did promise a steak dinner. I really don't want to go ahead with that. What am I going to do? So there's a spectrum of choices.
Speaker 1Yeah, but you don't get back to me.
Speaker 2Okay, I won't get back to you. And the reason why I don't get back to you is that I'm just hoping that you get the message Go away and that you'll go away and then you'll move on, get on with your life. Yeah, get on with your life, and you know somebody else.
Speaker 1And so let's just say okay, but are you worried about hurting me? Okay, from this persona I'm not talking about you because you would never do it.
Speaker 2Yeah, I'm saying look, the worry that I have is that, look, you're going to be upset, but let's say that I'm only worried. I'm only worried about the fact that you might cause trouble for me from being upset. You know, you could turn out to be a bunny boiler, you could start stalking me and that's why I'm worried. So it's a, it's a self-centered, defensive response that I'm describing at the moment. All right, or, or I could, or I could, you know, arguably feel really sad and send you about, you know, try and apologize with flowers and, and you know, introduce you to my best mate, or something like that. I mean, all of these things are possible, but I think probably the most typical thing would be yeah, I've got a bit of a problem, I'm going to continue ghosting you so that you get the message and I just don't have to deal with it.
Speaker 1I want to avoid it, all right, so that's really good. So I think we're going to do more on this because I think it's a really interesting space for us to be and also you have to go and take the dog to the vet because he hurt his paw yes so you have to go now, and I have to go because I've got to go into the city but I get.
Speaker 2I. I mean, if I could just summarize where I think we're at um. What I am feeling at the moment, as I describe my behavior, is that I am careless, you know, not necessarily vindictive. I don't want to hurt you, I don't want to punish you, I don't want to humiliate you.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2But unfortunately I am allowing myself to be culpably careless.
Speaker 1Good, I like that Culpably careless. All right, right then. So thank you, I thought that was really interesting. I think we should do more on that.
Speaker 2Okay, or people could just watch the Bachelorette.
Speaker 1Yeah, just watch the Bachelorette.
Speaker 2Or maths or something like that. All right.
Speaker 1So we will continue this conversation because I think it's really good, but we both have to go now because we're so busy and important. Thank you very much for tuning in wherever you are in the world. If you are having a miserable time on the apps, or if anybody you know is having a miserable time on the apps, please send them this podcast, because we need to start exploring some of these psychological indices that are affecting the way we operate online and, in fact, in the world. Is indices the right word?
Speaker 2Yeah, it is.
Speaker 1That's why you've stayed with me, isn't it? Because my vocabulary is really good.
Speaker 2It is absolutely magnificent. Thank you, are you sure you don't want to go camping with me on the King's birthday weekend? I really don't, but it'd be so much fun. I don't want to Back to nature.
Why People Ghost: Culpable Carelessness
Speaker 1I don't. I like to walk in nature and then get somewhere with a shower and a person bringing me food and a drink that I'll be polite to. Yeah, but you do much for tuning in, stay safe. Thank you so much for tuning in. Stay well, stay safe and keep your critical thinking hats on. See ya Bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me.
Podcast Closing & Final Thoughts
Speaker 1Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later.
Speaker 1This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
