Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Doone Roisin talks Dresses Determination and Davos Pt.1
Dune Ruchin isn't just another entrepreneur – she's a force of nature redefining what's possible for women in business. In this riveting conversation, the founder and host of Female Startup Club (ranked in the top 0.5% of podcasts globally) opens up about her unconventional journey from a rural Australian upbringing to being selected for the World Economic Forum's Young Global Leaders Program.
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We're both here are trying to empower women, and there's structural issues, but there's also critical thinking and emotional issues that also impact on our capacity and I hate to use the term but to be the best of who we are when we're under pressure. Would you agree with that? You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones From relationships, career choices, finances to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast.
Speaker 1:It's me, annie McCubbin, here recording from Bronte, which, for all of those of you who are unfamiliar with Sydney, australia, but may have heard of Bondi. It's right next to Bondi. So, and today I have the intense pleasure of now I'm going to make sure I say your name right, because we've just before we came on, we had a little chat about how to pronounce your name and it's Dune Ruchin, and I'm just going to give you a little potted history of Dune. So Dune is a globally recognized entrepreneur, innovator and champion for women's economic empowerment. So that must be. How come you know, pascal is it? Is that right? Because of that Dune.
Speaker 2:Yes, I had her on the show like a couple of years ago. We got connected through Glenn from my Millennial Money, which is rebranded to Smart Money. I think and he connected us and we had a great chat and we kept in touch and then I caught up with her recently, just before you interviewed her, I think, when she was launching her book.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And yeah, I think I'm actually seeing her this week for a swim.
Speaker 1:Oh say hello from me, I caught up with her a couple of weeks ago with Tracy Hall, who's also been on the podcast, and Tracy Hall is the one that was financially scammed through an intimate partner. Oh Jesus, it's really, really bad. Just the worst story you can imagine. So sorry, I've diverted myself already. So she's the founder and host of the female startup club, um, where they share insights from 700 plus female founders generating seven, eight and nine figures in annual revenue.
Speaker 2:I'd like that, yeah I would like to be generating that. Just saying we've had two on the show that have been, uh, 100 million plus. Is that true? Yeah?
Speaker 1:yeah, I want that. Okay, I'll talk to you about that later. So dunes show um and I. I'm not that happy about this because I would like to be in this position um, ranked in the top 0.5 of all podcasts globally, like oh my god, and is celebrated for his actionable girlfriend to girlfriend. Because that's what we're doing really, isn't it? We're having a girlfriend to girlfriend conversation yeah, a little gibber-gabber yeah, don't you reckon?
Speaker 1:and that inspires women to build wealth and impactful businesses. Um, so I met dune. Uh, when you're at techstars and wouldn't tell me about Techstars and what you were doing there?
Speaker 2:Yeah, gosh Techstars. It feels like such a world ago.
Speaker 1:I know it's not, but it was only a couple of months ago. It was like November, december, wasn't it? Yeah, I think we started in September.
Speaker 2:September 9, and we finished December 5-ish, yeah. So Techstars is a business accelerator that is kind of global. It started out, I think, maybe in Boston and what it does is it helps entrepreneurs who are in the early stages of building their business kind of accelerate from wherever they are. So it gives you investment, it gives you a three-month full-time, super intense program where you meet investors in the ecosystem, you kind of go through programming with mentors, you get access to oodles of resources and tools and people and just everything that you could possibly imagine. It kind of gives you a really good foundation and base to kind of launch from wherever you are.
Speaker 2:So in this cohort that I was in, there was 12 startups and so I think we were about 28 in total. Six of the startups were solo founders and the rest were kind of a mix between two to three, and it was the first ever kind of business accelerator on that kind of global scale. That was, I forget the exact stat off the top of my head, but it was majority women, female founders or mixed gendered teams yeah and the managing director, kirsten Hunter, who kind of selected the cohort.
Speaker 1:I go to the gym with her just saying.
Speaker 2:I love, I love that for you, thank you. She really flipped the script on what we kind of know about the VC landscape and the current ecosystem and was just like no, we know that there's a problem and we talk a lot about change and a lot of people harp on in a performative way, but she wanted to create real action and change and to do that you had to change the full pipeline. So you had to change. You know how many people were coming into the application process, how many you then selected for the interview process and then how you kind of put together the cohort in the end. So it was a lot of work for her. She's written some um kind of deep dive, uh like content around how she structured that pipeline so that other people in the industry can follow suit.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, so yeah, it's a really cool program. I think less than 1% of people get in around the world. It's super prestigious. It was fucking full on. Am I allowed to swear? You can swear, I'm a swearer. It was full on. I think it was one of these things that I saw it and thought of it as this professional moment. I was, you know, going to have a breeze. It was going to be like amazing, I would get a lot out of it. But it was so transformative, both personally and professionally, in terms of like. I didn't expect it to be so emotional on a personal level, but it was. It was.
Speaker 1:It was full-on yeah, when David and I came in, which was right at the end of the program, and we were brought in um, I think, to try and sort of sculpt your presentation so they'd have peak impact is the way I guess I'd call it yeah, yeah, and everyone was pretty at that point rabbit in the headlights, everyone was like what have we got here? And I think that notion of what gets in our way is really really interesting. What gets in our way of being successful, of carving out a business, of being in a program like that? Because they're structural issues, obviously, and my podcast, like you, we're both here are trying to empower women and they're structural issues, but there's also critical thinking and emotional issues that also impact on our capacity and I hate to use the term, but to be the best of who we are when we're under pressure. Would you agree with that?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's funny because I think you know that must have been the second time I met you, but you were there when this like pressure cooker moment happened. For a few of us it was high stress. We're in those final few days of preparing for what's called demo day, and demo day is where you pitch to a few hundred people who are a mix of investors, people in the ecosystem, government and friends and family and things like that. So you know, getting up and speaking on stage is intense, even if you're um, practiced, well-versed, confident speaker. But getting up and presenting, I think, in that environment, just added another layer of you know. Oh, and so you and David were kind of joining us in those final few kind of days in that lead up and and I know that you were there when, for me especially, I was feeling super emotional and super like stressed.
Speaker 2:Basically you know really tired really like at the end kind of sprinting towards. You know we needed to have a video, we needed to have a presentation we needed to have our script.
Speaker 2:we needed to have it memorized, all those things. And it's funny how outside of Techstars, I feel so different to how I was inside of Techstars and I was saying to Bronte Campbell recently she was one of the women in the cohort with me I was saying it's funny because I feel like everyone saw the worst side of me, because I was much less confident and much more just like overwhelmed. And why I said kind of at the beginning of our conversation why it was so transformative and why I found it a lot harder personally, is because I was really. I haven't worked in an environment that was in an office for forever. Really. I worked at the Iconic at the start of my career in my early 20s when it was picnic tables and internet dongles and you could do whatever you wanted in any direction and it was just- so it was very, very free-flowing any direction and it was just so.
Speaker 1:it was very, very free-flowing, very unstructured.
Speaker 2:Unstructured. I've never been in a corporate environment really, maybe like a three-month stint here or there, and so coming into this corporate building office, you know different scheduling and, as someone who is neurodivergent, I found it so overwhelming being around so many people. I'm used to working alone, I'm an only child, I'm kind of more right right, a solo kind of person, and so I found all of those things, like even the lighting, like everything, over stimulating and very overwhelming being around so many people.
Speaker 1:Big opinions so when you say you're neurodivergent, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:adhd um was my diagnosis, yeah, when I was last year actually all the smart people have adhd.
Speaker 1:They do. Apparently, 70 of entrepreneurs are neurodivergent and why do you think that is?
Speaker 2:because we can't follow rules. We need to think outside the box, and I think I'm someone that always need things to make sense and I struggle with things if they don't make sense to me personally. And that's like the nine to you know, nine to five, like why do we have to be at a nine am, and why do we have to go to?
Speaker 2:school and learn like that and why do we and those things that I really I struggled in those environments. I struggled really academically in school. I struggled really in the the three months in is because I could only literally last three months of going to an office and being on time and things like that. But I think those kind of restrictions and boundaries that people face in the nine to five then push people who have a little bit of an entrepreneurial spirit out of those kind of arenas. And so I found going back into that environment just a lot, basically a lot, a lot to be around, a lot of people, a lot of noise, a lot of light, a lot of everything, so it's interesting.
Speaker 1:It's full on. It's interesting that you say that about ADHD and how. I certainly think that there's been through the lack of understanding about ADHD and they have been locked out of those processes. You know David's ADHD and I would say that there's a lot of similarities between what you're talking about and the way David operates. You know we have a business that is different in its approach. You know we've taken acting skills and some psychology in business and melded it into this sort of consultancy that at the time we did it it broke ground because nobody was doing that Like everyone's doing it now, neither in the whole you know every casting person in Australia is now doing it not as well as us, if I can say that um, I can confirm.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I do like the method. Yeah, yeah, I appreciate it.
Speaker 1:Yeah so it's just very, very interesting of how do we because we, we so need, we so need you and your style of thinking in order to stop the development and encouragement of women? This is what I think from um being I hate the use of the term I don't know how being the best of who they are, because there's so many structural impediments in the use of the term, but I don't know how being the best of who they are because there's so many structural impediments in the way of women getting ahead and, to your point, so much of it is performative. You know we have to. You know the gender pay gap or whatever else we're talking about.
Speaker 1:The notions of empowering women and this is what I've come across in my business as well are just performative. No one's actually doing it. Because how do we? We need to change um the structural impediments. But it's not just that, it's also the way we are socialized and the way we live in, a fundamentally patriarchal society, makes it very difficult for women to actually to get ahead, to break through those barriersiversity and are as successful as you are, because I imagine, in terms of your emotional life and as you say, being in that environment was quite taxing for you. Can you tell me about that, how taxing it was? What is it about being around a lot of people?
Speaker 2:it's so funny because I would say, like, when I'm like outside of textiles, I would not even call myself and a super emotional person. I'm almost like, like, when I'm like outside of textiles, I would not even call myself and a super emotional person, I'm almost like the opposite. I'm usually just so kind of uh, chill, chill.
Speaker 1:I'm definitely more on the avoidance side, definitely, um, what do you mean by the avoidance side in terms of conflict like in?
Speaker 2:terms of attachment theory, like if I, if I had to be avoidant, stable or anxious, I'm more of an avoidant person and I'm just more of like a you know, I think, growing up as an only child, being raised as an only child where did you grow?
Speaker 2:up middle of absolute nowhere, like in the bush side of a mountain in Australia creek yeah, in Australia, right um inland from um Brisbane, and in Queensland, in a little tiny place called Mount Colliery, population 90, with a single mom, and so lots of silence from childhood and lots of quiet and lots of nature and lots of just, I guess, my own company, and so were you happy?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, as a kid, when I look back, I used to have this like I think I've said this before I used to be so embarrassed about my childhood. It was really different to everyone else and my life kind of changed when I had an opportunity to go to boarding school and that kind of shifted everything for me when I was a teenager, and so when I used to look back, I was always really embarrassed about my childhood and I didn't really ever talk about it and things like that, because I, the world that I lived in, changed, whereas now, as an adult, I'm just so like in awe of my mom and in awe of the childhood and these kind of unique experiences that I had as a kid, kind of just being a feral little fairy in the bush, and I think that I've just, you know, grown up with more like chill, quiet vibes, and so then when I did go to boarding school and I was living in a house full of girls that was crazy.
Speaker 1:What was that like?
Speaker 2:it was a lot, it was, it was a lot. Oh gosh, it was just, it was it was a lot.
Speaker 1:You would describe yourself as an introvert, is that right?
Speaker 2:Oh, I don't know if I would actually I present as an extrovert. For sure Most people would assume I'm an introvert, sorry, an extrorovert, but I think I am an extroverted introvert because I really do have a lot of um. I think I've got a lot of coping mechanisms that allow me to present as an extrovert and be very social, bubbly, chatty, sure, deflect from myself in a lot of um group situations. Yeah and then. But my internal system is like dying on the inside and I'm someone who really needs quiet time.
Speaker 1:Okay, how do you?
Speaker 2:recharge. How do you do you Quiet time Okay.
Speaker 1:Being alone, yeah.
Speaker 2:As long as someone else is in the other room.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so that's what we know.
Speaker 2:I'm someone that really likes like one-on-one connection or like maybe like four max, like as in a group of four in total. But I'm someone who struggles in like the larger kind of setting and I struggle in like networking events or things where there's a lot of people, a lot of different questions. That kind of thing. It really drains me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's. It's interesting just about the notion of introversion and extroversion, because they would say that, um, the way you recharge is is isn't explains whether you're introverted or extroverted, so okay, so if you recharge by being on your own, then they would say that's more on the introverted thing someone like me who's truly extroverted. I need to be around people. But talking about that, and you do wonder about these labels, right, because I also really like one-on-one. I don't enjoy small talk and I hate, networking right oh.
Speaker 1:God, yeah, and because you'd have to say you'd have to say who likes it, who wants to be in a room of people trying to sell themselves. It's vile.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I honestly don't't know, but I just don't go to networking events because it just gives me such anxiety, yeah, terrible, I know it gives me such anxiety and you've got to be so on, and I find myself I get super drained at things like that yeah it's super, super drained and I will just come home and just need to sit in silence.
Speaker 2:And so when textiles finished, especially after the um demo, I just like needed to come home and I just sat in silence for a bit. I feel like it took me to like January to kind of like recharge my batteries because I was so depleted.
Speaker 1:So you have been invited to speak at Davos, or you have.
Speaker 2:No. So I got accepted into the World Economic Forum's Young Global Leaders Program for 2025. So every year they have I think there's 1,400 alumni now but they accept about 80 people from around the world into their program. It's a three-year leadership program and what it's aiming to do is encourage people under the age of 40 to kind of develop their leadership skills who want to create change and impact in a number of different kind of verticals that the World Economic Forum kind of participates in, and so it recently got announced, in April, that I was one of two Australians that got into the program, which is super, super exciting.
Speaker 1:How did they tell you? Did they tell you by email? Did they ring you you? What did they do it?
Speaker 2:was on email and I definitely didn't think I was getting in. I feel like tech stars and this was. Was these two really weird moments where I was like really like why on earth would I get in? And getting in, I was like holy shit. Like that email says that I got in that's so weird kind of thing. When I got it and then I had to keep it a secret for so long and I was like, oh my gosh, and then it just finally got announced and I mean it's so cool.
Speaker 2:You meet all these really interesting people. I was on this call the other day with this incredible woman. She was the captain of the women's cricket team in Pakistan for a number of years and you know, I was on a call with this girl, or this woman rather, who is a coral researcher in australia for national geographic and so, oh my god, it's really that would be my dream, just fascinating people, right yeah, fascinating people who that you don't even need to worry about small talk because you straight into it straight into being like I'm so curious, I'm so interested, I'm so excited.
Speaker 2:Just tell me everything that you can tell me, because I need to absorb everything that you do and want, want to know what you do because, it's so outside of what I know, and so for me, those kinds of conversations are actually super energizing. Being on the podcast super energizing, like I absolutely thrive in that one-on-one environment of speaking to someone who is literally blowing my mind Yep, but in groups I'm dying.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I totally get it. I totally get it. So what is your like? What's your purpose? What do you? What are you doing? What's your shtick? What are you doing here? What's the overarching purpose of what you do?
Speaker 2:I think it's like multi, multi-layered and it evolves all the time, but I kind of opt out to what society tells us we have to do, and so for me, it's for myself. My shtick is like creating the dream life for myself. Lifestyle design is really important the kind of career that I want, what, what's going to fulfill me. It's that for me. But it's also showing what's possible to others, and I also think like it's really about championing women who want to build that independence from a job, from a partner, from anything that's kind of holding them to a system that they don't need.
Speaker 1:And so, you know, I Hang on, hang on, Let me take you back. So let's just say I'm someone and I'm in a job and I'm not enjoying that job, or I'm in a relationship and the relationship is not serving me. So your shtick is partially about why are you staying in these? Why are you staying in the job? Why are you staying with the partner? Is that right?
Speaker 2:Yeah, showing me that I've got choice, yeah, and how do you do that? So you do that through a number of different ways. You show up by showing people who are doing it. So everyone on the show who is building these businesses and changing their life through business, who want to build wealth through the lens of business, to create their dream life.
Speaker 1:On your show On the podcast. Yeah, On the podcast.
Speaker 2:So we do a lot of we do podcasts, we do newsletter, we do social. So we have a lot of different channels that we produce and publish content for.
Speaker 1:And when you say we, who's that?
Speaker 2:Me and my team Okay, yeah, yeah. So FSC I mean Female Startup Club and so I think that creating your own independence, creating your own financial independence of a job, of a partner, building a business that allows you to start asset building, savings building, fulfillment building and just confidence building as well, because when you have something that you're really excited about every day and for me, you know, when I started building Female Startup Club and I got to be really excited about what I was doing even in the crappy times that's so powerful. It gives you so much self-confidence in your abilities and what you can achieve in your lifetime.
Speaker 1:So let's say proportionate to the population, of say what you're doing across a population of women. How available is that sort of lifestyle or true sort of enactment of innate purpose? Do you think across a cohort of women? Do you think it's quite a narrow number of women that can do that, or is it broader than we think? What do you think?
Speaker 2:I mean, I think we're entering such an exciting era with technology and tools that, even if you're starting something really small and you've just got a small side hustle, even if it's not even actually using new tools and new technology, even if you're just flipping stuff that you're buying and selling off Facebook Marketplace those tiny little things that give you levels of independence because you're still building things on the side, you're still experimenting it can also be within your 9-to-5 career.
Speaker 2:You could be intrapreneurial, I think is what they call it where, within the 9-to-5 that you work within the company, you're still launching projects that make change. Nine to five that you work within the company, you're still launching projects that make change, you're still championing change in the policies of the company that you work for. Those things are so right, got it? You know that's all in the same vein. And so if you're able to do even just those tiny things, that builds your confidence, that might give you some extra spending money, that might give you the ability to be able to save outside of your kind of paycheck to paycheck in the nine to five job. It might give you the inspiration that or like how am I going to say this?
Speaker 2:it might give you the inspiration to set a goal that you're working towards, where you'll quit your job and travel the world for a year whatever it might be yeah, there's so many different ways that you can look at it or different ways you can slice it, but I think when you're able to do something that's for yourself and you're either building your own kind of dream or your own vision or working towards your own goals and there's a layer of making money with that, that builds independence, that builds confidence, that builds courage and it also allows you to start I don't know dreaming bigger, thinking differently about what you want for your life.
Speaker 1:I'm glad that you said that it can be really really small things, because I think a lot of the problem is that we hear talk about live your dream. You can be entrepreneurial, you know you, you can have more agency, but the enactment of that is somehow left out of the debate. And I know for women on this podcast I'll be listening to this and wondering, well, what can I do? Because I um, I'm on my own or I have three children, or my husband is feckless or I'm dealing with this really sort of patriarchal workplace? How can I do what you're saying? But what you're saying is, it's the little things I like that thing about. Can you flip your clothing on marketplace?
Speaker 2:Yeah, like, for me, the way that I started making like side money was literally selling clothes on ebay. I worked at the iconic. I got a 40 discount. I would buy clothes. When I was finished wearing them, I would sell them smart and like. I would get nothing for it, like you know, whatever. But it was again pocket money and savings that I could then put into that kind of side account.
Speaker 2:And so I think, even if it's a small thing, even if it's to take a step back and it's not about a money-making effort, but it's about, I don't know, going to singing lessons or choosing something that just gives you joy, that allows you to kind of be like wow, what if I actually wanted to become a dance teacher and like, change my career out of something that I hate and I just change direction? What if, if I become a dancer on TikTok and start making money as a creator? Or if you're in your nine to five but your passion is painting or art or crafting, just doing something really simple on social media that could work towards being able to monetize online, and that's like on the smaller kind of scale, and they're really shit examples, because I'm obviously just kind of like.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, they're not at all. They're not at all. So that was part one of my conversation with Dune. Next week. We talk about how your brain's cognitive loop keeps you trapped in a state of inertia. So many of us smart women have much more choice than we think. Thanks for tuning into why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin.
Speaker 1:I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know. It's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.
Speaker 1:This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me. No-transcript. No-transcript. What's expected of me and this is what I'm going to do, and this is what I've always done. Where, almost like, there's a paucity of imagination, whereas you know how can we prick the side of that sort of habitualized thinking and go hang on, I was really good at drama in like year nine or I like what you said about singing lessons.
Speaker 2:It's like yeah, that's my thing for this year is that you're going to start singing. I'm absolutely the worst singer of all time, but like I am, I am the worst singer and I had singing lessons.
Speaker 1:I've been singing today. Yeah, yeah, we should have, because I'm an actor and I wanted to go for um, more, um jobs in musical theater. And after about three years the teacher said look you, sweet Annie, you've got a really sweet voice. But it's never going to be. You're never going to be able to belt anything and all it oh, I don't even know if I'd accept that.
Speaker 2:I feel like now, in today's world with technology and social media, you could be some DJ with some cool synth mic in front of you and still be whoever you want to be.
Speaker 1:I'm like throw that attitude, yeah, and I like, I like that and I think that is to do with your, I think that is to do with your age. It's like you and your generation really look at things so differently and I find it so exciting and so stimulating that you don't get stuck. It's like anything is possible for a certain class.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think I mean I can't speak for other people but for myself. I am someone who is really action orientated. I'm always someone who, if I don't like the thing, I change the thing and I move in a different direction and I'm constantly trying things, doing things to figure out also what I don't like. That gets me closer to what I do like and what I do want. And so when I get stuck in a state of inertia where I've just been like filtering through something and I realize, hey, I don't actually like this, I don't want to do this anymore, I will not do it anymore, yeah, I'm just wondering where that thinking, where that thinking comes from well, it doesn't make sense to do something that you don't like yeah, I think well, for some people they genuinely are trapped and they really have to do what they're doing.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, I mean, I'm only talking about my own personal situation because I can't speak to other people, I'm speaking for myself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and it's right, though I think there's a cohort that can't do anything about it, but there's a massive cohort that can, that actually can live a different life and don't. And it's always interesting for me to unpick why don't we? You know, especially for us living at this level of society, there's so much that's available and yet so many people sort of live highly restricted lives, but really they're restricting themselves at this level.
Speaker 2:They're restricting themselves yeah, and I think you said something just before about. I think you said something about your like different generation or something like this and I also am like yeah, but you still have access to a phone and social media.
Speaker 2:I do have access, so it doesn't matter about age and it doesn't matter about generations, because you can go on TikTok and I guarantee if you open TikTok right now, you would see someone that's 99 and has millions of followers because he is just a 99-year-old or she 99-year-old grandparent who's on there talking about life lessons from a grandparent and, like anyone, can pick up a free internet phone situation, social media. You don't have to pay to be on social media and create something, regardless of your age so what age?
Speaker 1:I don't think is a barrier. You are so right, and what that shows me is I've just hit up against a um, a cognitive bias of my own. So you, you're absolutely right, and that's a brilliant example of how we take these cognitive biases into our lives and we don't examine them.
Speaker 1:And you've just made me examine it and you're absolutely right. I, you know, I was an actor until I was well. I've acted my whole life, but just cleanly. That was my major career. And then I went into a consultancy and I was in my 50s before I thought I want to write a book and I hit up against so many I can't.
Speaker 1:I don't know what I'm doing and I had this structure in my head, which is why David thinks I've got ADHD as well. But I had this idea in my head that I could write a comedic novel and at the end of each chapter I would have the cognitive flaws that had infected the behavior of the characters and made gave them poor decision. And I kept talking to publishers and they were like what you want to do, what? And until I found one that actually saw that it had value. But and I'm sure it's been the same for you, which brings me to this idea of confidence and bravery because they're not. It's not to do with how you feel, it's what you're going to do Like. Yeah sure, I had terrible fears and terrible insecurities, I was horribly anxious and felt like a shocking imposter the whole time, but it's what you do. Confidence is what you do, not waiting for a feeling to arise where you go. I can do this. Do you agree with?
Speaker 1:that do you think that? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:I think, like your internal system and and you and I spoke about this during tech stars there's an internal voice and you've got to be louder with your actions and just like trying to like override that voice and short circuit it, because that voice will often always been there. I've spoken on so many stages like I've, I've been in front of hundreds of people and I'm still nervous and I still have the voice and so it's just there and I'm like okay, you've just got to be quiet and and keep going. And going back to the kind of cognitive bias, I just want to give you a really good example, because I saw it yesterday and it's in my mind and I was talking about it with my girlfriends on WhatsApp.
Speaker 1:Oh, go for it, girl, I love them yeah.
Speaker 2:So this guy and this just proves like anyone has an opportunity. This guy posted one video on TikTok it's his first video that he ever made like a week ago. He's a farmer, he's from like the middle of australia, posts this video and he just talks about how he likes smutty fantasy books that are like you know what chicks read. It's like chick lit kind of stuff. He's really into book talk and so he's really into the akatar series and all this kind of stuff and it kind of like it's these two juxtaposing things. Like he's this farmer that's meant to be like macho and like there's a you know stereotype around this kind of vibe.
Speaker 2:But he's into this totally other vibe and he's really found himself in book talk on tiktok and so he makes this video talking about his love for fantasy fiction that's smutty and chiclet and like he kind of feels like he found his tribe totally viral, millions of views. He has producers reaching out to him from farmer wants a wife. He's got all of these opportunities just because he thought, hey, I'm just going to sit in my car today, record a video, sharing really vulnerably and openly about what I like and my interests, knowing that there's a bit of a contrast to who I am in terms of my profile as a farmer, and he found his tribe online. He has just got so much support and so much love and he just like nailed it and he's just so genuine and authentic and that is a really good example of like anyone can just show up and be your unique self or be your weird self, or just try.
Speaker 1:Or just try, just try.
Speaker 2:And who knows what happens. But if you don't try, you never know.
Speaker 1:Which is different you?
Speaker 2:miss 100% of the shots you don't take.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's exactly right, which is different to trying to work on the way you feel, and I think that's I know, with all this stuff in the Zeitgeist. It's been out for years about trying to spending time visualizing and then people are sitting in a room visualizing or nothing happens. Well, of course, nothing happens because you're just thinking you, it's the steps that you take and the way you manage the internal voice. I think it's the way you manage it, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that I should also just say that guy's name on TikTok is Luke Reads. I feel like we should credit him because he's brilliant and everyone should look him up and go support him. I feel like it's so true because your emotional internal dialogue and your inner self can often be different to your outer self, and that is just through, like your lifetime of how you've experienced the world, and what?
Speaker 2:happens and we all have an inner dialogue. I'm pretty sure I think we do Like. I think, like a lot of people have a you not every, interestingly enough.
Speaker 1:Um, not everybody has pictures, so when they, you know how you visualize something and you see things in your brain, it's so interesting. Not everybody has that like everybody would have to have. Surely, to god, everybody would have um internal dialogue and internal chat.
Speaker 2:Surely, surely, I don't know, but I assume, yes, and so, yeah, it's more about getting the skill of just being like okay, I feel this way and I feel like I'm on a roller coaster or I feel like I'm about to vomit because I'm walking on stage to talk to 500 people but, I'm just going to do it anyway and even if I fuck up, well, that's still like one on the belt that I did it and the next time maybe it gets a little bit easier, or you know, I just do it again and I combat how that happened and so is that.
Speaker 1:What is that the dialogue you have with yourself?
Speaker 2:oh, what's the dialogue that I have with myself that sounds really good.
Speaker 1:It's like, well, I'll stick that on the belt, I. I like that and I'll just give it another go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I tend to just try to like ignore it and just keep on going, keep on going. I still do practical things to calm my nervous system before something. So if I'm going on stage, I will always, always, always, just before I'm about to leave the house or the hotel or like whatever. Wherever I'm about to leave the house or the hotel or like whatever, wherever I'm about to go on stage two, I will lie on the bed. I will put on no wait, I'll go downstairs. First.
Speaker 2:I will have a glass of water with L-theanine in it, which is a kind of supplement that I should just rewind for one second so I'm someone who really likes a state A like, a state of being like A and a state of being B, so you can see where you feel A and B. And so I'll give you an example of when I don't feel A and B. If I like, sit in a room and try to meditate. I don't feel better before or after. It's like the same state of being. I feel the same, and I could do 30 days of meditation. I won't feel any different.
Speaker 1:That for me actually is like really um anxiety inducing, sitting there like well, you know it's actually not, and calm my thoughts.
Speaker 2:You know that for a lot of people that meditation is contraindicated, so it's not good. That's what you're saying. Yeah, I knew it for me well, anyway, yeah, because they go, everyone should meditate. Well, no, they should. Yeah, honestly it's, it doesn't the way that I can calm my brain is watching something so I've got like a visual coming in and scrapbooking. So my hands are busy and then I can't think about work so it like shuts off my brain anyway. So I will have L-theanine. Do you know why that?
Speaker 1:works. Do you know why that works? Because when you're scrapbooking, see, the emotions are in the limbic system, in this part of the brain. When you're scrapbooking, scrapbooking it's taking you into the prefrontal cortex, so it's you're shifting from the emotional to the executive function of the brain. So your hands are actually doing something and it takes this focus.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you're not thinking well, it's.
Speaker 1:That's still there, and that's the thing. Good thing to remember is this behind here is still there, but your focus is now here and you can't do two things at once oh yeah, I mean, I, I do love a scrapbook it's great, it's perfect, it's perfect.
Speaker 2:So I'll take l-theanine, and what l-theanine does is it actually removes the flutters in your chest. So if you've had a coffee and you feel jittery, but you have it with l-theanine, it's like big in the biohacking community but you have it with l-theanine, it's like big in the biohacking community, but you have it. With L-theanine, it's like you get it at the health food shop. Whatever, it'll take the flutters away in your chest or it'll take away that feeling of jitters.
Speaker 1:So I'll have that because I definitely have the feeling Of course, yeah, yeah, you've gone into fight flight, it's perfectly normal.
Speaker 2:Exactly, I have that, and then I will you know 10 minutes later or 20 minutes later, I'll go and lie on the bed and I'll do a Wim Hof guided 11 minute breathing exercise and again, because it is that like hyperventilating kind of exercise and it's guided I'm listening to someone while I'm trying to focus on my breath. Yep, and have you done Wim Hof before? No so the point is that you kind of you do.
Speaker 2:I know all about Wim Hof, yeah, okay yeah, so you do three rounds of hyperventilating and then you kind of go tingly in all your arms and your sensation and then when you finish and you just sit up, you are in a different state, right than state a. I'm so calm, I can feel right through my like. I feel like I've just breathed out all the stress and right, I actually have a physical, different state of being and so I feel much more calm and that works for you, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:it really works for me and then when I go on stage, yes, I'm still nervous, yes, I still have a voice. Those things aren't ever going to go away. But at least my physical state starts from a very calm place, versus being like anxious all day, maybe having coffee, yeah, getting more and more stressed and then going on stress. I've like really wound my system down and I'm starting from a place of just like no jitters.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that's you know we do. We all have a. Well, hopefully we have an approach, because David and I have to do a lot of public presentations and I think we all have an approach. David does a vocal warm-upup. I don't know what I do. I think I do a bit of Shakespeare in my head or something, but I love that, I know. But I think that that it's such a smart thing you just said, because you're you're organizing yourself in the face of the anxiety or the fear, but in the knowledge that it doesn't actually go away and we don't, in a way, we don't want it to because it shows that we care. If something actually adrenalizes you, it means that you're in a risky situation because you care about something.
Speaker 2:So in a way, it's perfect, it's there, it's part of your experience, but it doesn't have to dominate totally, and it's really exhilarating when you do the hard thing and come out the other side knowing that, yes, you're okay, like it's. You're not in a real fight or flight situation where you actually are in danger, you're just in a, you know, a state of environment danger kind of thing. Speaking on stage, you come out being like wow, like proud of myself, and so even little things you can do for yourself that make you feel, oh, wow, I did that, like I conquered my day. I started doing daily cold showers and so again, it's one of those things that gives you the shock. It then calms your nervous system down and then afterwards it gives you really that feeling of like well, I can do anything, because I just had a cold shower in the middle of winter and the Swiss mountains and it was fucking freezing.
Speaker 2:And so when you do those things, again you're teaching yourself and your muscle kind of like muscle memory, your muscle memory, that you can do hard things, and you can. Even your brain is telling you what are you doing? Get out, I'm about to vomit or cry or whatever. But you're like, no, no, I'm going'm gonna stay in here. And then your brain is like no, no, get out. And then you get out and you're like, oh huh, I did that like amazing, and so it doesn't have to be something, as you know, hectic as speaking on stage, but you can do those tiny little things that still your body is like no, no, no, no, no, I know 100, 100 agree with you.
Speaker 1:I, I have a cold shower every day and I exercise, go to the gym every day and I have a lot of people saying to me you shouldn't go every day. I'm like, well, fuck off, I do and I feel good it because I go and it's, it's an achievable goal.
Speaker 1:Yeah and at the end of it, especially when I'm being real, I can't, I'm hopeless on my own. People say one, I've got a gym in my building where I live, but there's no point because I sit there and I've got my phone and then I have a little sit and a little think, whereas if I'm in a class that goes for 45 minutes, I'm with my friends and I've got someone going. Come on, annie, you can do this 100% and I have excelled. I've definitely exceeded what I thought I could do and that for me, I always do it first thing in the morning and that for me, it sets me up in that place where I'm like, oh, I can do that, I did, it's an achievable goal. And if you do a small achievable goal to your point, it makes everything else accessible, but not in a really sort of daggy spiritual way, it's just, it's cognitive. I did that. Therefore, I can do that, that, and it gives you a sense of achievement.
Speaker 2:And that's going back to the beginning, when I was saying even if it's something really small, that builds your confidence and just starts a process of being like oh yeah, I can do that. I can do that and maybe I want to go a little bit further. Maybe I want to stretch that goal and try something harder, or whatever it might be. It can be something as simple as starting a daily morning cold shower routine or, you know, something that pushes a boundary, that then starts a process of further pushing a boundary and further. You know, deciding a new goal and a new thing and starting a new thing and and kind of using that as a launch pad to keep on going and I think also what it does is if you do start something really small, it breaks the pattern, because we just get habitualized and in a pattern, right, yeah so for everybody listening out
Speaker 1:there for all the people, women that are listening out there and they're, you know, we've got a lot of listeners in america and, um, a lot of listeners in canada. Where else? Harry britain, sweden, anyway, for those women out there that feel trapped, because I think you're the exemplar of someone who's not trapped. So if you are living in a social strata which you know not everybody is and I always make that point that not everybody has the opportunity to do something different what advice would you have for a woman that's listening to this podcast, that feels stuck and trapped and has quashed her dreams?
Speaker 2:So I would. I would definitely just start by doing the simple things that, like we said, are in your control. So finding a podcast where you're listening to someone that can inspire you and that could be you know someone in in any kind of field the podcasting space has people in every kind of topic ever. So listening to someone that's going to inspire you, it could be setting a very small routine, like a daily cold shower, just those small daily actions that you can control, that are free, that you can do yourself and kind of build the muscle memory, like we spoke about. And then I think, if you want to kind of get to that next level of like okay, well, maybe you've started to, I guess you could also to to rewind a bit, you could do. I like to do an exercise where I dream like of a scenario. Just let my thoughts go crazy, so like you might go sit outside or something and just be like, okay, let's just dream for a second, let's not put barriers of why I can't do it or what's going to hold me back sort of like brainstorming in your own head, exactly like brainstorming in your own head
Speaker 2:about just what's possible, because sometimes if you get stuck in the like busyness of the day and you never let yourself kind of sit idle and just dream for yourself, see where your thoughts go, see what you like and there are lots of different like exercises you can do online around kind of like you get a piece of paper and you jot down things that you like, words that you like, kind of put thoughts on paper and then let yourself dream, and I don't know what it's called, but you can do those kind of things.
Speaker 2:We should find that where you kind of like I guess it's more like a structured exercise to think about what you like or what you want for your life and kind of have a bit more of a framework to it. But you could also just sit there and like, let yourself dream, because you might be sitting there being, like, you know, I want to travel around in a van, you know, or it might be whatever it might be. Everyone has different kind of goals and aspirations and dreams, but maybe yours is I want to quit my nine to five. I fucking hate it and I want to travel around in a van. And how would I make that possible?
Speaker 2:So, to reverse engineer that, you need to be like OK, how much does it cost to live in a van? How much would it cost to have the van? How much money or savings what I need? And could I do that via social media? Could I start a TikTok account? Could I do something that allows me to build this kind of dream over the next 12 months, over the next 18 months, and work towards chipping away at that, you know, saving up what I need to save up. And this is such, again, a crappy example because it's so kind of like on the spot but dreaming of the goal that you want, setting a bit of a road map, because things don't happen overnight, things take time. So setting a 6, 12, 18 month road map, that's quite practical, whether it's like the financial goal you need to get there, or whether it's, um, you know, that's such a that's kind of a big one, like I feel like it can be such a small, no, a local theater performance.
Speaker 1:It could be like hey, I want to actually start doing theater.
Speaker 2:I really loved drama in grade nine, like we said before. Um, I want to do that, like that's my goal for this year. So great. Then finding a local theater and then and taking the step to enroll and then committing to the class once a week and putting that into your budget, which?
Speaker 1:then expands your social connections as well, right as well, exactly, and the other thing that's it's so good.
Speaker 1:What you're saying is that, as opposed to you know, if you're just visualizing in a room and then just crossing your fingers and hoping for the best what you're talking about is expanding your mind by doing. They're almost like acting exercises. What you're talking about it's like imagination exercises and then taking small steps. But the other thing they say to do is actually actively look at the obstacles along the way to achieving that, so that you start problem solving. Because what problem solving does because the thing about sitting around just visualizing and doing nothing, it's all just very limbic system, it's just all in this other part of the brain. As soon as you start looking at the obstacles and problem solving, what's happening is you're using your prefrontal cortex, so it's moving into the executive function part of the brain and you're more likely to actually to actualize it. Yeah, and the other thing to do is don't tell 27 people what you're planning to do. Like, like, keep it as a kernel of truth just for you.
Speaker 2:I don't know if I'm I'm with that. I'm kind of like the share your goals kind of thing you get people like on board to be your like support it depends who you tell. Yes, it does true, yeah it's, I think, all of these things it's very um everything's, very case by case.
Speaker 2:It's not ever one size fits all and I'll give you an example, because the you know traveling around the country or the you know whether you're doing a performance. These are all very like hypothetical, but I'll give you a personal, practical example, please do so. I often like to set just one big goal for a year, so it'll be whatever it is. It could be work related, or it could be, um, like kind of a goal that is linked to work, or it could be a personal goal. And when do you set it? Do you set it like at the start of the year usually, and it's again I'm doing kind of a, an exercise of what would be one thing that I would want to achieve this year, and sometimes it's much more practical and sometimes it's more like it could even be a feeling. Whatever it is like I want this year, I want to come out of this year feeling x.
Speaker 2:But one year I really wanted to. I was like, great, my goal for this year is I'm going to publish a book, and I wanted that within FSC. I wanted it to be a marketing initiative. There was a much more kind of like um to it, but basically I was like I want to get to the end of this year and I want to publish a book. That was the the kind of brainstorming that I had done. That's what I landed on, and then I was like 24 this year that was in 2021, I think.
Speaker 2:Oh, was it 2021? Yeah, I think it was 2021. It was either 2020 or 2021, but I was then like, okay, to publish a book within a year. What does my month look like every month? What are the things that I need to do every single month? Yeah, how? What's the system that I need to chip away?
Speaker 1:at and what is which is problem?
Speaker 2:reverse engineering, which is reverse engineering, is problem solving and so, even though I didn't publish that by the end of that year, it published it in March or whatever. Having that kind of like, I brainstormed, I picked the goal and then I reverse engineered what does that look like? How do I actually get there and what are the things that I need to do every day, every week, every month, whatever? And so it's about kind of like brainstorming, dreaming up what it is, setting a realistic timeline to achieving it and then locking that into your diary, locking that into your calendar and being like, well, keeping yourself accountable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, keeping yourself accountable, and it might be telling someone else, or it might be getting a buy-in from a friend or a colleague or a partner or a family member or whatever, but kind of reverse engineering and then going for it. And also sometimes you realize when you start doing the goal that you're like, fuck, I don't want to do this.
Speaker 1:You might be like.
Speaker 2:I'm going to run a marathon, Then you're going to be like I hate running, I'm absolutely not going to run a marathon, Whatever it is. You can also change your goals. You can be like yeah, I tried it. Realize that's not for me, which is a good thing, that's another data set and a data point to be like cool, move away towards what you do, like yeah, and it gives you more of being like well, I don't like that, so maybe I'm going to try this next.
Speaker 1:You know yeah, I had something really intelligent to say then.
Speaker 2:Oh, please remember, no, no.
Speaker 1:Tell us it's gone completely out of my brains when you were talking about. It happens to me all the time. So what you're talking about is habit as opposed to willpower, because we know that willpower is a terrible master and it just never works. But what you're talking about and that's probably why it works for you to tell people is when you get into the habit of doing something, then it becomes automatic and it moves into a different part of the brain, whereas willpower is just terrible. You're starting from scratch all the time. Get into the habit of it. Do a little bit every day. It's what I say to my friends about writing. Um, you know, I'm attempting to write a novel at the moment and, um, no matter what I'm doing, I write 500 words a day and you know some of it's total rubbish and I'll never, ever use it. But you know, I just dump it out. If an idea comes in, I just dump it out on social media.
Speaker 2:Sorry, you should put all that on social media yeah, yeah, yeah, I should even the rubbish stuff. You should put it out there, because it'll be potentially really interesting for other people my book, or the talking about my book, the process oh yeah, writing the rubbish. Oh yeah, publish the rubbish, yeah.
Speaker 1:I just, I just put any, I just write anything, and then I go back in. And then sometimes I go back and I go oh my god, that's so funny, annie, you're so clever. And other times I go back and I go what is that? That is just such total junk. But I'm in a habit, yeah, because willpower is a very bad master.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I also think to add to that, it's like if you miss a day, whatever, who cares? Start again fresh the next day, like I think people get too tied up in like being so, like rigid about things, and for me, I'm just not a rigid person. So if I'm giving 1% today, that's the hundred percent that I could give today, and tomorrow maybe I'll give some more.
Speaker 2:But like you've got to just like not be too hard on yourself and just keep on going, because I think you can set this goal of like I'm going to write 500 words a day, and then you don't do it, and then you're like self spiral. Oh, then you don't do it and then you're like self-spiral. Oh my god, I'm the worst, I'm, I'm so shit, blah, blah, whereas you could actually just be like great. Well, today I only wrote 10 words and that was the best that I could do so.
Speaker 2:I gave a hundred percent because that's the best that I could do today and tomorrow.
Speaker 1:Maybe I'll get back on track to writing and that's like exactly the same as people, um, on diets, yes, oh my god, they're like had a you know an eclair, so I may as well. That's done, the day's done, it's ruined. Look what I've done. I've ruined my life, I've ruined my diet. Well, no, you haven't. You just ate an eclair and that's totally fine. And I'm with you on the relaxed thing I, I, I, you know, I try not to have, I try and have two alcohol-free nights a week, but if it's like Easter, I break that because I go, it's Easter and it's a public holiday.
Speaker 2:Totally, and I should have a glass of wine. I mean, how boring if we're all so strict that every day is exactly the same. Yeah, it's a journey.
Speaker 1:It is a journey, it's a journey and, on that note, thank you so much that was the best chat.
Speaker 2:Thank you, you're so welcome thank you so much for having me, I'm so happy to have my uh, my first, my first episode with you in this studio it's such a beautiful studio and sweetie, I was going for maximalist, can you tell? Yeah, no, not at all. It's very subtle and I'm very, I'm very, uh beige. I'm a very, yeah, very beige I can tell that I'm sitting the studio.
Speaker 1:We'll put something up, I don't know how. Yeah, we'll put up a picture of us in this studio, but it's this beautiful pink studio. And also Dune has the smallest dog I've ever seen in my entire life, called Sweetie, because my dogs are gigantic, like like beasts that roam about. And then Sweetie is a little chihuahua, isn't she?
Speaker 2:yeah, she's as big as a dot. She's as she. Yeah, she's as big as a dot. She's as big as a dot, she's as big as a dot, but she's adorable, she's a tiny thing. She's just a tiny little mutton.
Speaker 1:She's a little mutton, oh my God, look, we've just gone on so well. So lovely to have you. I'm a chatter, I can chat.
Speaker 2:I can chat, forgotten every question that you'd asked me and, like, started answering it and then gone into another topic. Same same. Who knows where it landed? Same same.
Speaker 1:We did well bear with me it's very interesting and I I really hope that um, all the smart women and any men that are listening, um, take heed of this, of this conversation and of this advice don't be too hard on yourself and just reignite the imagination that was so accessible to you as a child, because we get in these ruts, we get in these patterns of existence, and life is short and brutish and you've really got to enjoy it. And, on that note, see you later, bye, bye.
