Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Bonus Ep: How is Annie like Harrison Ford?
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Have you ever found yourself in full-blown panic mode despite knowing better? That's exactly what happened when I got trapped in a stairwell after visiting my neurologist. One moment I was making a rational decision to avoid a potentially broken lift, the next I was convinced I'd be trapped in a "concrete bunker" all weekend with no water, no phone signal, and no hope of rescue.
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The Stairwell Panic Experience
Speaker 1There's a part of me that's not rational that's waiting for the next thing. That's not right. Yes, indeed, it's dangerous.
Speaker 2Yes, you've got a little script running in your head as you approach the next door handle yeah, this door handle is going to be closed.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2You tried, the door handle.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2It is closed. It is locked. Yeah, I knew I was in trouble.
Speaker 1You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host. We're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, aboriginal land. So welcome back to this week's bonus episode of the Wise, smart Women podcast, where I get to talk to David about pretty much whatever we like generally, about relationships and things that contribute to them, the good and the bad. So hello.
Speaker 2Hello there.
Speaker 1Hello. So I just wanted to talk about what happened to me when I went to the neurologist.
Speaker 2Oh, yeah, so here's the thing. Why did you go to the neurologist?
Speaker 1Well, I am a migraine sufferer, and for anybody else out there who is a migraine sufferer, I'm really sorry because it's terrible.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Anyway. So when I get migraines I can't see, I get visual disturbance, I can't see properly, I lose language to some degree.
Speaker 2Yes, you do. You've got a bit of a migraine going on at the moment, don't you?
Speaker 1Yeah, I do. I've had one now for five days.
Speaker 2It's much better. Yes, indeed.
Speaker 1Why did that not make sense?
Speaker 2No, no, no it made complete sense.
Speaker 1Yeah, I am amazing. But when I first get it in that first half hour you often say it's word salad.
Speaker 2Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1What do I sound like?
Speaker 2You sound like somebody who is only learning to speak English and is not very good at it, which is terrible.
Speaker 1Yeah, it's terrible.
Speaker 2It's terrible, terrible for you. Not life-threatening, though, so I will survive, but anyway, fortunately you terrible for you, not life-threatening, though, so I will survive, but anyway, fortunately you get to go and see a medical professional.
Speaker 1Yes, what I don't do is just take supplements and go to a naturopath, because that's pointless and they could tell me what not to eat. Instead, I go to a proper doctor and I have a very lovely neurologist called bronwyn jenkins and I went along to Bronwyn and she told me that I could try this new treatment because I was having Botox in my scalp my scalp.
Speaker 2Point to where the Botox is going Up there.
Speaker 1Everywhere, everywhere.
Speaker 2So you have a very online scalp.
Speaker 1My scalp would be stunning.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1My scalp should be on the runway.
Speaker 2You have an 18-year-old scalp.
Speaker 1My scalp's beautiful Anyway, she said, have this new treatment.
Speaker 2How does Botox help with migraines?
Speaker 1I don't know, you don't know. What am I? A neurologist.
Speaker 2Surely you've got some idea of what it does.
Speaker 1Well, I guess it's. I actually don't know, really no.
Speaker 2Miss Critical Thinking herself doesn't understand the way the Botox actually helps relieve your migraines. Yeah, doesn't it remove the tension in the muscles?
Speaker 1Probably. Yeah, that sounds right.
Speaker 2Yeah, I've forgotten I have got a migraine. That's right, that's all right. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1So I can't remember everything, but that's what it does, yeah.
Speaker 2I think so. I yeah, I think so. I think it releases muscles.
Speaker 1Yeah.
Speaker 2So in your forehead you don't get lines, yeah, In your back of your scalp you're less likely to get a migraine.
Speaker 1Yeah, and so they put them in the shoulders. It's a disgusting thing, but anybody who gets migraines and they're intractable I can highly recommend it. Anyway, there's a new treatment out, called what's it called here? It is a Jovi, which is an injection that you can have once a month, which apparently is more efficacious. But here's the thing. So I go to the neurologist it's in the morning and then I leave the neurologist and I go to the lift and I had noticed that the lift, when I'd gone up, that one of them wasn't working properly. Now the other thing that I have going on is I am quite claustrophobic. I have attempted to deal with it, but there's still definitely vestiges of it there, even though I live in a building with a lift.
Speaker 2but I like that lift you know that lift, you're comfortable with that lift, but you notice that one of the lifts was out of um was out, so I thought I'm not going to get in one of these lifts that's, that's a bit of, that's a bit of availability bias, isn't it? You know, there's a, there's a broken lift yeah so you really noticed that yeah, and then you thought that that represented a greater threat to your yeah vertical travel so you decided you're not going to get in a lift.
Speaker 2I wasn't going to get in a lift even though the other one was working yeah, but didn't.
Speaker 1Yeah, but anyway, maybe it was like a lift virus maybe it was going to spread from one lift to the other so I didn't get in the lift. You never know and which is the worst thing you can do because, as we know, when you're dealing with um, eggs is that a phobia yeah, I'm phobic.
Speaker 1So the worst thing you can do when dealing with a phobia is to avoid it, because that's experiential avoidance and it only gets worse. When I first went to see a psychologist about it, she made me ride up and down in the lift ah, anyway, and did that help?
Speaker 2sure that's that's like exposure therapy, and it did help it did help.
Speaker 1You've got to be exposed to the thing that frightens you and then you, your brain stops triggering.
Speaker 2It stops triggering the brain that you're in danger and that's a just such a big reminder of how mammalian we are. Because I just noticed who's just appeared down here?
Speaker 1Hello Yo-Yo, oh Yo-Yo, look at her, put her against your white shirt. There you go, otherwise she's invisible, lovely dog.
Speaker 2In the building that we currently live in there's a moving travelator like not an escalator with stairs, but a travelator, and the first time that yo-yo came across the travelator she was terrified she's like what is this?
Speaker 1why is the floor moving?
Speaker 2exactly, she didn't like it and she didn't want to get on.
Speaker 1Avoidant, avoidant, yeah she's, she's, she's done, she's absolutely dripping with experiential avoidance.
Speaker 2But when we just said, said okay, yo-yo, come on, nice, firm lead, she gets onto the travelator she discovered that it was okay.
Speaker 1And now she's fine with it. Now she's fine with it, she hops on with alacrity and enthusiasm. Anyway, back to my story.
Speaker 2But I'm saying, like your brain and yo-yo's brain, we're very similar yo-yo and. I yes.
Speaker 1We're actually very, very similar in a lot of ways. What?
Speaker 2if I was to put a leash on you and make you get into the lift?
Migraine Treatments and Claustrophobia
Speaker 1Yeah, that would probably be criminal yeah criminal and really super weird.
Speaker 1No, I'm not that interested in doing that. Anyway, back to this. So I thought I'm not going to get in the lift. What stairwell? Now, this is Friday morning, just remembering. I thought I'll take the stairwell instead. So I opened the door to the stairwell and then I look at the lock on the door and I think what if, though, when I shut that um, I can't open it again? And I thought so I went through this whole thing about should I chalk the door um to the stairwell with my bag, but then I thought it says do not, um, do not, chalk open right fire escape doors. And I'm quite compliant and you know in a good way in that, in that regard, in a very so I thought don't, don't do that, don't do that, just it'll be fine.
Speaker 1So then I go in through the door, I close it, I try and open it again and I can actually feel it now, just the feeling of it, and it locked on the floor and I made this noise like that and I looked around me and I'm I'm stuck in a what, in my brain, had become a concrete bunker right immediately a safety stairwell yeah, became a concrete bunker okay, yep I can't stand not being able to see out.
Speaker 1if it had a window, oh, would have been a bit better, but not totally better, because I could have waved to people saying I'm in danger, anyway. So then I'm in there, then I run and I'm breathing up already immediately, breathing high in my chest, you started running immediately.
Speaker 2Immediately Ran down, ran down so you did actually go down the stairs, yeah, down the stairs to the next floor, which is what you were intending to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.
Speaker 1I was like on the third floor, so I went down to the next floor, tried. The door locked. And then that really started triggering this thought process that I'm in a concrete bunker, it's Friday, right, Yep, and there's probably no phone signal in here and nobody will know where I am. And I haven't got any water on me and I'm probably going to get you know. I know that's how my brain does. It's catastrophizing, it's classic, and I'm probably going to get stuck in here.
Speaker 2For the weekend. For the weekend, okay.
Speaker 1And then nobody would know where I was. And then I'd do this.
Speaker 2Can I just check? Sure, at the moment you're at the second floor.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, so if you actually got through that door, you'd still have to get into one of the dangerous lifts. Yeah, correct, but I would have been fine then I would have done that you would have been.
Speaker 2Oh, you would have done that now oh yeah, at this point I would rather be in the lift. The lesser of two evils, yeah. So then what about going down one more?
Speaker 1so I went down one more flight, try the door and, um, it's nothing, it's locked. So then I go down one more floor and at this point I'm I'm whimpering quietly I'm not exaggerating to myself going oh my god, I'm stuck, I'm stuck. David, david, like that I actually say your name. It's so lame I'm sorry, I didn't hear you I get down to the bottom floor because I'm quite an independent person, aren't?
Speaker 2I, yes, you are my life. I've got a lot of autonomy. Yes, you become pathetic. Anyway, I get down to the bottom floor.
Speaker 1I try and open the bottom door. And because I'm quite an independent person, aren't I? Yes, you are. I get on with my life. I've got a lot of autonomy. Yes, you do. I become pathetic. Anyway, I get down to the bottom floor.
Speaker 2I try and open the bottom door and it's locked, I'm like, and then it really starts. Was that the last door? That was the very last door.
Speaker 1I thought it was the last door and then I begin really panicking, bunker. The narrative just escalates. I'm stuck, um, I'm going to be in here, nobody will know where I am. And then I noticed there's another, um, another door at that level. So I run to that, pull it and it opens. And I'm telling you, I ran out, I was like harrison ford escaping.
Speaker 2The Fugitive.
Speaker 1No, no, no, no, no. I was like Harrison Ford in Raiders of the Lost Ark.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1Right, having escaped some sort of you know crocodile infested. You know environment, you know everything with buildings collapsing, a booby trapped maze, the whole thing. Yeah, so I escaped, and as I walked out, this man was walking in at the same time.
Speaker 2What? Walking into the fire escape? Yes, walking into the bunker.
Speaker 1Well, how was he going to get out? That's my question.
Speaker 2Maybe he was hiding.
Speaker 1Yeah, and he walked in from the street right. Right Into this door as, and then um, I looked at him and my breathing was really. I was sweating, because I immediately sweat when I go into fight flight. I'm sweating and um, and my heart rate is just through the roof, like I've really gone into fall. I'm either going to have to flee from this fight flight or freeze. I do a lot of flee, I think I don't do much freeze. I don't do much flight.
Speaker 2No, I do, I don't do much freeze.
Speaker 1I don't do much. What's the other thing?
Speaker 2fight fight?
Speaker 1yeah, just what are you going to fight? Yeah, what are you going to fight? You could have.
Speaker 2You could have banged on the door.
Speaker 1Yeah, would have yeah, anyway, and then. So then I look at him, he looks at me and says good morning. Not knowing how, knowing how I was, I had no idea how insensitive of him.
Speaker 2Outrageous, outrageous Of all the things he could have said.
Speaker 1And then, of course, what it did, was it then, um, exaggerate, it really tripped up the migraine that I already had because of all that. So then I had that, and, um, so then. So then I looked at him and I thought he must be wondering what in God's name is wrong with me, because I was in such a state of sort of disrepair and internal elevation, no internal arousal, arousal.
Speaker 2Yes.
Speaker 1And then I got into the car and my heart's going boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, really unnecessary. And then it occurred to me that no, two things, a lot of things occurred to me. One what in god's name is wrong with me? Why am I still like that, like how easy it is to trip me into panic after everything I've worked on?
Speaker 1the amount of time I've spent working on these, these sort of anxiety provoking phobias. Number two it did occur to me quite quickly that that is the spotlight effect, that he actually wouldn't know that I had been in the harrison ford episode inside the bunker.
Speaker 2Right, that guy is it the spotlight effect, or is it the illusion? Of transparency, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, so, so, so you're, you're in a highly um aroused state agitated state and you think that everybody who encounters you knows it is going to know that and that's such an interesting thing, isn't it?
Speaker 1because um so much we're so, um internally aware of every heartbeat, every emotional thrum, that it's just so difficult to imagine that other people don't know it.
Speaker 2But they don't, and that's what happens in relationships you go.
Speaker 1you've got to know how cranky I am about that. No, you don't. I tell you. It's the illusion of transparency, it's really interesting.
Speaker 2Yes, indeed yeah, and certainly the illusion of transparency creates an enormous amount of drama in relationships. Jiggling your leg sorry, it's all right, I didn't notice. I was jiggling my leg because you're adhd jiggling it all the time.
Speaker 1It's really annoying on the couch. Go on at night when watching television, it's really annoying.
Speaker 2Go on, okay, go on, um, do go on I think I was talking about the illusion of transparency. Stop it, you're doing it again.
Speaker 1Go on. Yes, you were, it's actually accurate and I had it. And I guess the point of that whole story is like wow, what, how, how easily I was triggered and how deeply, deeply disappointed I was in my inability to stop. Watch my mental process. So watch the thoughts, put my feet on the ground, take a breath, slow the process down and then maybe, with some use my critical thinking to examine the veracity of the fear that I was going to be stuck in there all weekend.
Speaker 2I mean, you've told a sort of a very personal story there and quite an intimate and psychologically detailed story of what was going on in your mind and then the response that that took in your body.
Speaker 2But it's funny, I'm actually noticing that in the landscape of many of the senior executives that we're working with at the moment, and even though it's not as concrete literally as concrete as getting stuck in the bunker, um, and and and and having that that really you know, discombobulated experience of of not thinking straight, um, and also thinking that the gentleman who insensitively greeted you with a simple good morning, thinking that he should have been able to see or that he was able to see, just how he was and the humiliation with that and how humiliated you feel, I actually reckon that there's a really strong corporate version of that.
Speaker 1Yeah, what is that?
Catastrophizing and Fight-or-Flight Response
Speaker 2Well, I'm sure there is, because we're just, they're just humans, wherever we go that's right our own little set of psychology and physiology right I mean, if we look at the corporate environment at the moment, there are so many things that are destabilizing the status quo. Um, I guess you know we have to look no further than ai and how that is going to transform the way that so many jobs are done and how many many functions that take big data and sift through and identify the insights and we can see applications, really constructive applications, of artificial intelligence in marketing, in product development.
Speaker 1Could AI have helped me in the bunker? I could have actually no, but see it was the no signal. I could have said how do I get out of here?
Speaker 2And would have said go to the bottom floor, yeah well, I mean, you know what, what actually, I think was happening to you in that moment. Here we go that I'm in danger of mansplaining at the moment. Um, uh, when you were in that situation and you had an emotional response I'm in danger, right, I'm going to be stuck in the bunker all weekend. Your capacity to think clearly and methodically and systematically seemed to elude you at that particular moment I, my critical thinking skills, went completely out the window.
Speaker 1I became like some sort of cornered squirrel.
Speaker 2Yep A cornered squirrel.
Speaker 1I was a cornered squirrel in the bunker. Yes, like to think that we could rely on our prefrontal cortex, our critical thinking skills, to help us to um escape from a situation, or just to think and to your point about executive, to think through a situation that requires composure. Right, you would think right and you need that critical thinking skills.
Speaker 2But when your brain is hijacked, so if, if, if we go back to the, if we go back to the stairwell, yeah if you hadn't been triggered, you know, destabilized by the anxiety that you're going to be locked in there all weekend, um that you were, you know, going to have to find a place to go to the toilet in the corner.
Speaker 1Oh my God, I hadn't even got to the toilet. Okay all right. So in that moment, I had myself dying of thirst. You did, oh yeah, oh, you had that.
Speaker 2Okay, so in that moment when you were aroused, that was the best that your wonderful mind could do Now, at this moment.
Speaker 1And I know this crap, that's right, I know this crap, that's right, I know this stuff?
Speaker 2Well, okay, you know this stuff. And also, if you were to find yourself in a stairwell on the third floor and you actually expected that the door was going to lock, what's the logical way to get out of the building? Go down to the bottom floor Just go down to the bottom floor and one of those doors will open. And you didn't do that because you got stuck at the second floor as well, trying to get out there Pulling at handles like I was in severance.
Speaker 2So I think that this is the common experience, and that is that when something destabilises you and let's think about what it is for a lot of people in business, maybe they step into a new role, or maybe their CEO changes or their immediate boss changes and they have to report to somebody else. Maybe there's a transformation going on. Maybe there's a whole lot of talk in the business about how we're actually going to use AI in order to work with all the data that we've got in order to create the best products and services, etc. Etc. So this destabilisation can appear in many, many ways.
Speaker 2now, in those moments, it's not enough just to go to okay, I have to think critically, because the brain, when you're in fight-or-flight, may just be incapable of making that hundred percent and capable so the thing to do in those moments is to draw on your capacity to self stabilize, to, okay, notice that your heart rate has increased you know that your mind is quickening, um and even to notice that your mind is not giving you good answers to the questions that are in front of you so what?
Speaker 1what is the bias? What is the? What had happened to me? I'm just trying to think.
Speaker 2I think what you've done is you've identified what happens when people catastrophize. Okay, and when people catastrophize, it's like a it's a hyperbolic response to a situation. You know I'm, I'm behind a closed door and I'm trapped and I'm going to be here all weekend is to catastrophize.
Speaker 2Yes, it thinking and it's trying to think and isn't there a part of the brain that then reinforces the catastrophic thinking? So, um, this is really bad. I notice myself getting upset and agitated. Why am I upset and agitated? Because something really bad has happened. So there's that circular logic that actually sends you into, you know, a high state of anxiety, even though it doesn't serve you.
Speaker 1Oh, it doesn't serve. It doesn't serve, I'm telling you. It just exacerbated the migraine so badly.
Speaker 2You keep talking while I just look up if I'm feeling panicked, there must be a reason to feel panicked, right, and then you then re-trigger yourself.
Speaker 2It's possible that I might be stuck here all weekend yeah um, so let's imagine a, a quieter and look, I mean the thing. I mean put that into a business setting. Go on, put that into a business setting. And I and I, and I do think that this is relevant and it's worth tracking this through, because I do think that most people who are in public business roles would not like to let anybody know that they are destabilized by things that are going on in their environment they are so, um, let's imagine that inflation is going in the wrong direction.
Speaker 2It's going in the right direction. At the moment, it would seem, um, knock on wood. That may not last, um, but you know, if, if, if you know your core products and services are not selling at the moment because of the cost of living crisis, that could send you into a panic.
Speaker 2Now there may be solutions that you could take yeah and so, yes, indeed, you're going to have to get to the problem solving the innovation part of the part of the process, but to to have to get to the problem solving the innovation part of the process, but to expect yourself to get there immediately, before you've self-stabilised, you know, before you've Exactly, you're putting the cart before the horse.
Speaker 1You are putting the cart before the horse. I think what we're looking at with catastrophising and anybody who has a tendency towards anxiety um will definitely um have an experience of catastrophizing. And catastrophizing is a cognitive distortion, it's a thinking error which can lead to inaccurate perceptions of reality and illogical inferences. So I think that's right and generally, I've noticed with myself that once I am um aroused, once my brain is in a sort of a hyper vigilant state, which it had been provoked um, then everything that came into my environment was potentially dangerous yes so I got a um.
Speaker 1I got a message from a doctor saying I had to redo um a urine test and I had to. I had to lie down for a minute until I went ann, it's a midstream urine test, like it's to test for a UTI and I couldn't get hold of my daughter and I was like why can't I get hold of it?
Speaker 2So once you're in a hypervigilant, aroused state, it's like everything goes through that filter and I think that would be the same in a business setting I think that there is pretty good evidence that arousal um that relationship between arousal and efficacy, it almost follows like a an umbrella shaped graph, and that is when there's no arousal yeah you know, when you're utterly complacent, then your capacity, no, no, I'm talking about complacency. No, I'm talking about a level of arousal. Um, not necessarily.
Speaker 2Um, you know, applying composure skills so if we're, if we're, if we're not aroused in a certain situation, it's very unlikely that we're going to take any action at all in in order to make things better yeah, that's true okay.
From Personal Panic to Business Applications
Speaker 2So the tension rises and we get aroused. And there's actually a sweet spot up at the top of that curve where a certain amount of arousal, combined with the capacity to be able to compose yourself so that you can think clearly, read the room, see what you're dealing with, you know, come up with a solution to make things better. There's a certain zone at which a level of arousal makes you, make you operate at a higher level another word for stress.
Speaker 1So this whole notion of you've got to live a life of no stress is, of course, absolute bullshit, because of course you need to have stress, because you need arousal, because otherwise you're not going to do anything that's exactly right, and take any action and I think for somebody who is a business leader to be already you know something goes wrong in the day the arousal goes up.
Speaker 1That's gone wrong and then I think you can almost get into some. It would be quite easy to get into some magical thinking which is today it's all going wrong it's going to be a bad day.
Speaker 2Today is going to be a bad day. Today is going to be a bad day, yeah this happened um.
Speaker 1You know, my ea didn't arrive um. Now I don't know what I'm doing um they've asked me to go up and talk to the board that's not going to go well. The numbers were down and then and then the whole thing just escalates and you start looking at everything and we do, we all do this.
Speaker 1I try really hard not to do it yes I try really, really super hard not to go just because this happened at eight o'clock yes doesn't mean this is going to happen for the rest of the day yes and I, I really that is one thing um that I work on, because I'm like, no, it is not significant that's magical thinking that I'm now in for a good day or I'm in for a bad day yes, it's just a moment.
Speaker 2So you're saying we should be going moment by moment?
Speaker 1by moment, through the things that are important yeah, that's right so, but the unfortunate thing about that, the physiological elevation that comes with um that sort of catastrophizing, is you're, then you're waiting. I'm there's a, there's a part of me. That's not rational. That's waiting for the next thing.
Speaker 2That's not right yes, indeed, it's dangerous. Yes, you're, you're. You've got a little little script running in your head as you approach the next door handle. Um, yeah, this door handle is going to be closed yeah, yeah, yeah um. You tried the door handle yeah it is closed, it is locked. Yeah, I knew I was in trouble. Yeah, I knew I knew.
Speaker 1So it starts to compound yeah, and I guess for so many of us, um, we, we are in. You know, I'm not a stupid person. I've done a fair amount of analysis on critical thinking, um, and yet, well, it's my. You know, I'm washing around, it's my milieu, really is critical thinking and then. But I found myself in the stairwell and I wonder how many people find themselves metaphorically in the stairwell.
Speaker 2Yep, yep, yeah, I mean, it's it. It doesn't surprise me that, even though this is your milieu, you are still subject to things sometimes blindsiding you and um and and having those uncomfortable experiences. I mean they say that we, we teach best what we most need to oh, I hate that, I know you, I know you hate that.
Speaker 1Such bullshit organized by who the universe? No, no, no, no, not organized, not just cause and effect.
Speaker 2Oh, it's never. Yeah, well, it is because you have that experience, yeah, and you have a very, you have a really kind of visceral recallable. You know, you can recall what happened very, very clearly.
Speaker 1Yeah. So that means that you can actually talk about yeah, but it's not like you know you teach what you best need to learn. They always say that about acting teachers and I don't think.
Speaker 2Think you know, like you.
Speaker 1You, I think about my acting teachers they weren't great actors really, but most of them dead now. Are you able to say that with some?
Speaker 2are you able to say that? No they're not a few of them are but a few of them have actually died. They have passed on, and I thank them very much for everything that they gave me.
Speaker 1Yeah, but they're a very actor.
Speaker 2But they weren't necessarily really great actors. No, that's true. And look, I think you know the fascination with any kind of developmental process. If you already know how to do it and you never get bothered by it, then it's hard for you to deconstruct it in a way that makes the mechanics of it accessible to other people. So that's what I think is your great strength is that you know, you are aware of this stuff that is going on. It is common to other people Highly common. Just in different contexts.
Speaker 1And to different degrees.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Speaker 1Right, and I think, as we know which makes me I must be a genius that as your IQ goes up, so does the likelihood that you'll have any of these sort of cognitive issues.
Speaker 2So I mean, if I could talk to, I've got imagination, You've got imagination.
Speaker 1I can write a book, I can create characters. I can create a catastrophe out of nothing.
Speaker 2Okay, okay, and it's almost like, when it comes to competence, being able to do the job. It's a bit like the inverse Dunning-Kruger effect.
Speaker 1Explain.
Speaker 2Okay, well, the Dunning-Kruger effect Explain. Okay, well, the Dunning-Kruger effect is that some people are so stupid that they don't know how stupid they are.
Speaker 1Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2So you know, they think they know it all and they don't know that. They don't know it all because they are not capable of understanding what it is that they don't know.
Speaker 1Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't know. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they don't know what they don't know and they're not interested. And often that happens with people that are aware of what they don't know, like I'm highly aware of what I don't know and what I'm not capable of.
Speaker 2Yeah.
Impostor Syndrome vs. Dunning-Kruger Effect
Speaker 1And that's often the case with women. And then you might be that sort of woman and she gets in the room with a chronic underperformer who's wildly confident yes right, wildly confident because they've got the dunning-kruger effect. They don't know that they're not amazing. They think they know everything and they don't yes and then you're in the face of that sort of um under what's the word for it. So I look confident, but it's not bolstered by anything it's like an empty confidence.
Arousal Levels and Performance
Speaker 2Yeah, so so that's the dunning-kruger effect, right? You know, when you're so dumb, you, you, you don't know how dumb you are relative to other people yeah yeah, so um, but the inverse of that yeah and this is something that I find quite common in people who are very intelligent and who are also very conscientious when they know what they don't know yeah right, or they know that there are other people who know much more about this yeah and who have had much more experience of this than they do yeah they are very uncomfortable taking a position that might suggest that they do know that stuff.
Speaker 1Yeah, okay. What you're talking about here is the Dunning-Kruger effect juxtaposed against imposter syndrome. Yes, go on.
Speaker 2And look, it can get in the way of people's personal presence when it's important that they project a certain degree of competence around, say, the next role that they're going to take on. So I've done a number of engagements where I have worked with a CFO or a CTO or a COO who has been included in the succession plan. And so just take a CEO. They will have great experience in terms of finance, reading the market you know all of that, all of that financial data and being able to synthesize that into meaning. They may not have the same experience when it comes to technology or people and leadership or risk and compliance and when they are demonstrating to the board and to the chairman of the board that they've got what it takes to be the CEO. They can get very shaky when they step out of their area of acknowledged competence.
Speaker 1Isn't that reasonable that they do that?
Speaker 2It is reasonable that they do that. But, just like you in the stairwell, sometimes people, when they are perfectly capable of expressing and describing, yeah, their feel for finance or operational risk or something that's outside of their formal capability, yeah, they get overly cautious, got it? Particularly if they're high on conscientiousness. Yeah, they internally do not want to be speaking bullshit. They, they internally don't want to be speaking bullshit. They, they internally don't want to be saying things that are true.
Speaker 1So that's that's on the, that's on the um imposter syndrome. Then you might have someone else who's not aware of their lack of capability, but it's incredible, he's incredibly confident. Yes, and then they just nail it because of the, as we know, the authority bias um really influences people's brains. You might have somebody who's an a chronic underperformer, but very confident yes holds themselves well right okay, and convinces everyone they know what they're doing, whereas the person that doesn't know what they're doing is in the in the thrall of the imposter syndrome, correct?
Speaker 2that's right. Yeah, interesting, that's right. So I mean, look, I do think the way forward with this, for somebody who does find themselves in the metaphorical lift well, they've been spooked and their thinking isn't serving them in that particular moment the place to go to is composure skills, self-stabilisation skills, better than I've managed to do. Well, you weren't expecting it at that time.
Speaker 1But that's the thing. We're not, we don't being blindsided. Is the is not? Is something coming into your circumstances? Okay, so you have to be prepared for the unexpected.
Speaker 2Yes, don't start. Don't wait until you get thirsty to start digging the well. If you know that you're going to be operating in an unpredictable environment, you know where the basis of your value is shifting. It is worthwhile early to be able to identify the things that stabilise you, that get your mind working at a higher level yeah then fight flight or freeze good and on that note, um, that will be the end of today's bonus episode.
Speaker 1I hope you enjoyed listening to david and I why are you speaking so formally at the moment?
Speaker 2are you trying to do the argument from authority? Yeah, if I speak like this, then I have great authority um no, I don't know what happened to me then. We're done for today.
Speaker 1And we're done for today. But listen, thank you so much for listening. I noticed that I now have listeners in Ukraine and, just so you know, we think about you a lot.
Speaker 2Tava Ukraine.
Speaker 1And we hold you in our hearts, ukraine, and we're really, really sorry you're going through what you're going through For everybody in the rest of the world. Good afternoon from Sydney, australia. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day.
Speaker 1Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is annie mccubbin signing off from why smart women see you later. This episode was produced by harrison hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie mccubbin.
