Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Can’t win an argument? You could be a Labrador!
Every moment of every interaction is governed by an invisible force most of us never consciously recognise – status dynamics. From deciding where to eat dinner to navigating workplace meetings, these subtle power plays determine who gets heard, who gets ignored, and ultimately, who controls what happens next.
Proudly sponsored by COUP — helping brands cut through the noise with bold, smart marketing. Visit the http://coup.co website or book a meeting with us at. https://go.oncehub.com/RequestMeeting
I want to go to Thai.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sick of Thai. I don't want to go to Thai tonight. Can't we go and have Greek instead? I don't want Greek, okay. Well, what about Lebanese? No, I don't want Lebanese. Okay, what about? Hey, why don't we just go around the corner and have a hamburger at Stockman? No, no, no, I don't want the carbs, okay. So at the moment, annie is basically preventing us moving in the direction of any of my suggestions.
Speaker 1:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast.
Speaker 1:Today, as always, we are broadcasting from the northern beaches of Sydney in New South Wales, australia. It is sunny at the moment and even though it is midwinter, yesterday, david and I went for a swim in the ocean. Very nice, very nice, um, but we are anticipating that it is going to. The skies are going to open sometime tonight and deliver us up to about 90 millimeters of rain, so there could actually be local flooding it's going to get very wet so we're not going to be swimming in that we're not, and hopefully people won't be driving around and crossing floodwaters, which people do in Australia.
Speaker 1:You know all the powers that be. They come out and they go, and it's a lot of rain. Please don't cross floodwaters because even if you're crossing a road that you know intimately, you might think that you're only going to be going through you know 12 mil of water and then what happened is the road will have given away beneath you and you're actually going to drown. So, if anybody's listening to this, please don't cross over roads or flooded things.
Speaker 2:Be careful of your motivated reasoning, because I think that that's the critical thinking thing that's in play there, isn't it? People are motivated to get home, and so they will reason their way to a decision.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 2:That it's going to be okay.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And too often it's not.
Speaker 1:Too often it's not Cars float. Yes, it's true, they get picked up and carried away.
Speaker 2:Hey, have you noticed that we're sitting on the stage of our little backyard theatre?
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, what is that?
Speaker 2:Well, it's a.
Speaker 1:It is a theatre.
Speaker 2:We're sitting on the stage of our backyard theatre because I think today I mean, I know that most people listen to the podcast via Just Audio but today we're going to be talking about something a bit dramatic, and so we're on the stage.
Speaker 1:Isn't that correct? Yes, we are indeed going to be talking about something a bit dramatic. And are you trying to move me?
Speaker 2:No.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, so dramatic, and are you trying to move me? No, oh, okay. Um, so a couple of things have happened, um in the past week. Um, one is that my friend was telling me that a couple that she knew that I have heard about, haven't met them um are getting a divorce and, as we know, not that I'm anti-divorce. If you're not happy, get out, but divorce, as you know, is a messy and, as we know, not that I'm anti-divorce. If you're not happy, get out, but divorce, as you know, is a messy and expensive business, especially when there's children involved. Just that. And the other thing is that we were in a meeting and, um, what I noticed during the meeting, that the status, the power dynamics that were going on in the meeting were particularly marked because the man in the room was sitting back with his legs splayed.
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:There was a Manspreading. I think they call it Manspreading.
Speaker 1:There was a sort of a stillness about him and, yeah, and there was a sense of he was in control of everything. And then there was somebody else in the room and she was talking and nodding and smiling and she did not have a lot of power, and so I thought we would, today, talk about power, dynamics and status. Okay, hence the theatre background, because David and status. Hence the theatre background, because David and I, coming from an acting background, are very well schooled in status dynamics and how they pervade every moment of every relationship without people knowing it.
Speaker 2:I mean, status is not an uncommon word, not a super uncommon word, but fundamentally, how do we define it? How do we talk about status?
Speaker 1:You go.
Speaker 2:Okay, oh, all right. Well, I mean, status is a way of describing what's going on between two people or between different people with respect to the power, the power to determine what it is that happens next. So if you are determining what is going to happen next, what we talk about, what the answer to the question is, if you are in control of that, we describe that as being in a high status state like if, when we decide to go out for dinner, let's just say and you always said where- would you like to go for dinner tonight?
Speaker 1:and I always said I want to go to Thai.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm sick of Thai. I don't want to go to Thai tonight. Can't we go and have Greek instead? I don't want Greek, okay. Well, what about Lebanese? No, I don't want Lebanese, okay, what about? Hey, why don't we just go around the corner and have a hamburger at Stockman? No no, no, I don't want the carbs. Okay, so at the moment, annie is basically preventing us moving in the direction of any of my suggestions. So we would say that Annie is holding status. At the moment, she is determining. You know what happens next.
Speaker 1:We could do it the other way, we could go.
Speaker 2:Okay, where would you like to have dinner tonight?
Speaker 1:I don't know when do you like to have dinner tonight. I don't know when do you want to go and have dinner, oh really. Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's have Thai.
Speaker 1:Okay. Or if we both go very low, oh, if we, yeah, yeah, yeah, well, I don't mind, I don't mind, yeah, I mean I'm happy to eat wherever you want to eat. No, I'm happy. I happy, I don't mind. What do you want um?
Speaker 2:I don't know I'm. I mean what? Do you have an appetite?
Speaker 1:for I don't really know, I don't mind. I mean, what do you have an appetite for?
Speaker 2:yeah, okay, and so what's happening is that neither of us are determining what happens next, so we would describe annie and I both as being in a low status mode yeah, and, and you do find um in some, in the dynamics of some relationships, and maybe even um in a work environment.
Speaker 1:You might find nobody is willing to actually be accountable for anything. Yeah, so everybody stays in that. I don't know, I don't mind. What do you think?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah. What does the boss think?
Speaker 1:what I know? What does he think?
Speaker 2:do you get to speak to him? No, no, no, do you?
Speaker 1:I never get to speak, no I don't know what, so I'm just a bit. You know what do you think? I don't know what, so I'm just a bit. You know what do you?
Speaker 2:think I don't know. Why are we assuming that the boss is a man anyway?
Speaker 1:Yeah, what Exactly?
Speaker 2:Yeah, unconscious bias. What can we do? So, yeah, I mean these status dynamics. They exist in every moment of every relationship. The thing is that we're just so used to it. It becomes empty, it's invisible. Yeah, it's invisible. It becomes ubiquitous. You know, we don't, we don't, we don't notice, unless we consciously take our mind to what are the dynamics that are going on because if we both go into high status mode and it is something, I don't want to go into high status mode at the moment well, I don't.
Speaker 1:Well, it's not up to you, is it well?
Speaker 2:what, what? Because your podcast.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I get to say when we go into high status mode and when we don't go into high status mode.
Speaker 2:Annie, I'm sorry, I'm not comfortable with you just calling the shots all the time. I'm not calling them all the time, david, I'm not your servant, I'm the one that actually I'm, not your lackey.
Speaker 1:I didn't say you were my lackey. You may know anybody who's listening. You may notice this particular dynamic where neither person is willing to relinquish power. And that, ladies, is how drama is created, Because if we kept going like that, in that mode it would end up.
Speaker 2:I don't want to keep going in that mode.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't want you on the podcast.
Speaker 2:Okay so that's what I'm saying. Well, good luck getting the podcast produced if I have nothing to do with it, yeah, actually.
Speaker 1:I don't actually need you in the podcast because I've got Harry, so don't come at me with that right, okay, okay, fine, fine, okay.
Speaker 2:So divorce me. Yeah, I will Marry Harry and get him. I'm going to, I'm going to. I can't. That's horrible.
Speaker 1:What? Withdraw that immediately, all right, okay. But just as you're listening to this, do you recognize that notion of how arguments escalate?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Because neither of us is willing to relinquish status relinquish status and look there's a dynamic that goes with this status dynamic, and it's generally one of trying to just basically avoid it. People don't like being outed often as being the one who's trying to control anything, and certainly people don't like being outed when they take very conscious steps to avoid taking responsibility. And so, you know, the status conversation can be actually a very emotive one, which is why we try to keep it fairly lighthearted, and we've come up with two archetypes.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, well, I did. I came up with two archetypes, you came up with two archetypes, I did no, no, hang on.
Speaker 2:Didn't I inspire you? Because didn't I actually create the original presentation upon which you I'm not sure. Here we go, see A little status, see, yeah, a little status, and just remember why this discussion matters.
Speaker 1:The stakes of recognizing status dynamics and the relevance is because it's not actually about who's boss right?
Speaker 1:No, is it, it's the invisible script running every conversation and it actually shapes who gets heard, who gets ignored and who gets steamrolled. And if you can't see it, if you can't recognize the status dynamics that are ever present either in your relationship with you and your children, with you and your direct reports with you, in your business with you and your children, with you and your direct reports with you, in your business with you and your clients, then you can't actually have any influence over the outcome.
Speaker 2:I mean, recognizing those dynamics is difficult, it is and it's actually kind of dangerous to some degree. You know, if you come to the conclusion that you know the person that you've chosen to spend your life with actually doesn't give you any agency, any autonomy, any power to make decisions for yourself, that's a fairly difficult pill to swallow.
Speaker 1:Well, and that's apparently what happened in this relationship that my friend was talking about. I said did you see it coming? Because she was really close to them, relatively close, and she said no, the only thing was that, um, he was terse, he was terse a lot, and I think so if you think about that notion of terse.
Speaker 2:It's short sentences impatient, you should get this yeah, there's an undercurrent.
Speaker 1:You're getting in my way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then she apparently did a lot of talking around the edges of it. So if you talk about those archetypes that you would just mention that I did think of. Yes, of course.
Speaker 2:So the high status character is the. Is the Siamese cat. The Siamese cat, I mean you know how cats you know, generally speaking, you know this is the essential difference between cats and dogs is that, you know, dogs are very social. Cats basically rule the roost, you know, they assume that they are in control and they're very contained. And yeah, they're very.
Speaker 1:They're minimalist. They're minimalist, aren't they? And the other archetype that we juxtapose the the siamese cat with is a labrador who is friendly, um, bouncy, um, lots of movement.
Speaker 2:very, very high on the approval seeking right, please feed me, you know, please feed me anything.
Speaker 1:And you know that notion that that you come home from work and the dog's just thrilled to the back teeth and just all over you and the cat's like licking a paw, going whatevs yeah, the labrador puppy which I might have mentioned before.
Speaker 2:That's what. That's what my acting teacher used to refer me, refer to me as a labrador puppy, and he wasn't being kind.
Speaker 1:So mean.
Speaker 2:What he was commenting on was yeah, when I was at acting school I was pretty nervous, a bit worried that I was going to get kicked out. I thought I have to make people like me. So yeah, I probably did lean into low status habitually as a survival technique.
Speaker 1:So how would you describe low status as a sort of approach?
Speaker 2:Well, certainly it's peace at any price.
Speaker 1:Unpack peace at any price. So I mean, if I was a very high status domineering person and I said to you, for our next holiday, what I want to do is go to Thailand.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And you'd actually really, really don't want to go to Thailand. It's like you don't want the heat, you don't want the busyness, but you are operating out of a low-status Labrador place.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:What would you say I'd?
Speaker 2:say so, I'll give you the thing, okay.
Speaker 1:Oh, David, you know our next holiday, yeah what I want to do is I want to go to bangkok bangkok.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you want to go to thailand. I do. What's the appeal of thailand?
Speaker 1:what do you mean? It's really good, cheap, hot, lovely, okay, good, you know we get. Let's sit around the pool. How long do you?
Speaker 2:want to go for a week.
Speaker 1:Are you sure about that?
Speaker 2:yeah, positive at this time. You want to go for A week. Are you sure about that?
Speaker 1:Yeah, positive.
Speaker 2:At this time. You want to spend a week in Thailand. I do Okay. Do you want me to see what flights are available? Yes, I do. Yeah, okay, and you want to stay at the Marriott or the? Marriott's good yeah, marriott okay, okay, I'll see if they've got any deals.
Speaker 1:Okay. So that's a really, really good example, because, number one, you'll notice that, me playing high status, I didn't use a lot of language Once I'd said I want to go, I didn't then go on and on about it. So it's less language, it's shorter. And then what David did was ask a couple of very tentative questions, but not really weren't they?
Speaker 1:they were quite tentative and then what he did on top of agreeing to do something he didn't want to do, he then actually did an add-on, which was was extremely helpful and offered to book flights and hotels.
Speaker 2:that's's right, and I'm well-practiced at that actually doing that.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We've taken many holidays. That you haven't wanted to go on no no, I didn't want to go to Switzerland, I didn't want to go on that bus tour of Switzerland.
Speaker 1:How good was it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was good.
Speaker 1:It is true you are very amenable. Yeah, it was a great holiday. It was expensive, switzerland's really expensive when you come from the south.
Speaker 2:So there's a relationship dynamic that you might recognize. I just noticed it's kind of amusing that we've chosen two archetypes a cat and a dog. If you were to ascribe a gender to a cat, what do you usually think of? Female, and the dog is usually the male. It probably kind of reflects our relationship dynamic a little bit.
Speaker 1:Do you reckon?
Speaker 2:Yeah, do I.
Speaker 1:Yeah, do you reckon?
Speaker 2:I do, is that okay? Oh, yeah, sure, I mean, I don't want to offend you.
Speaker 1:Thanks for that. See, he's dropped status there.
Speaker 2:I don't I don't want to start. You know some, some kind of narrative where you end up sort of feeling criticized for it no thanks for that.
Speaker 1:See, the thing is that we unconsciously read and respond to status signals, so it's not just what david's picking up and what you listeners will be picking up when you're involved in one of these status dynamics and you're wondering why in god's name the whole thing went pear-shaped. We're responding to tone of voice, posture, eye contact and word choice within seconds of any interaction. So if I'm high status, then I am to do with comfort and control. I like to be in control. And then the labrador puppy is about is about safety through compliance.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Deflecting, apologising and looking for cues, and there's lots of research around this, isn't there? They just don't call it that.
Speaker 2:Look, the research has found its way into mainstream academia. I know that a Harvard researcher writer, Amy Cuddy, attracted quite a lot of popularity for a I think it was a TED talk that she did on power dynamics, and her particular study is that if you stand in a high status way, that not only will you project high status onto other people, but you will also start to feel more powerful yourself. And they debunked it, didn't they?
Speaker 1:Well, no, no.
Speaker 2:Look, they didn't entirely debunk it. There were problems with her methodology and I think that that was. You know, that's academia and scientific skepticism at its best level. But when I looked at Amy Cuddy's research it absolutely lined up with everything that I had experienced in my training and in my work as a professional actor yeah, well, that's right, because acting really good writing and good acting um the actors and the writers really lean into the status dynamics, don't they yeah?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, if you think about a play script, a, you know, yes, it's a bunch of lines that mean absolutely nothing at all. They only come to life when you have an actor who is acting, acting having an impact on another character, and the way that they do that sometimes is physically, you know, sometimes actors will touch other actors, but fundamentally it's psychological action, and so the psychological actions that tend to get delivered by high status players again, think your Siamese cat, it could be. I could patronize you, you know, go on patronize me.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, look, I just want to say to patronize you, I mean I could patronize you about the podcast. How many episodes have you got to so far? 50. Are you 50 episodes? Oh, well done. That's quite a lot of episodes, annie. I mean it's not quite as many as Seth Rogen has produced over the years, but still it's encouraging.
Speaker 1:Not Seth Rogen, David.
Speaker 2:Joe.
Speaker 1:Rogen oh my God, Seth Rogen is a comedian.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:You're the worst person for me to do this podcast with. You're the worst.
Speaker 2:That to do this podcast with You're the worst. That's not as many as Joe Rogan, but still it's a good number. Good try, David. Yeah, good try. Good try, Meow.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right and what we know and what the researchers so it has arisen out of theatre, but also the academia has also in their research. I think there's Deborah Grunfeld's research at Stanford says that status is fluid. Yeah, so it's a set of behaviors. It's not a fixed trait.
Speaker 2:No no.
Speaker 1:And I think that's really important for listeners to understand. So you're not born like. Well, they say that you come into the world and you've got these personality traits. What are they? Well, they say that you come into the world and you've got these personality traits. What are they? Openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness and neuroticism, they say are the five. But even they're thinking they're probably open to interpretation or can flex. But status is definitely not something that you're born with. It's how you're socialised and it can be dialed up or dialed down and change in the context that you're in. Right, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:So where's the context that you're high status?
Speaker 2:What's the context in which I have status? Well, I have high status with the dogs.
Speaker 1:That's a little tragic, isn't it? There must be something. That's a little tragic, isn't it?
Speaker 2:and there must be something it's a little bit more okay so impressive than than than status over a girdle, if I. If I was to answer that question, I would look for where I have expertise. Yeah, that's right. So I have expertise in coaching people. Coaching people to perform, helping people get clear on what their you know narratives are yeah, when you're directing a play.
Speaker 2:When I'm directing a play, when I'm directing a film set, ah, yeah, now that's an area where it's absolutely important, yeah. So if I'm directing a video and it's a drama and it's complicated and there are lots of moving parts and I need to make sure that the actors are performing and the camera operator is getting what we need and the lighting is right and the sound is right, if people are looking to me for direction, then I have to be able to give it simply, clearly and unambiguously.
Speaker 1:So that's an area where I have to hold status, that's right.
Speaker 2:Can I mention playing football? Can I mention being a soccer golfer?
Speaker 1:As long as you don't go on and on and on, because it's super boring.
Speaker 2:Yeah well, you know, when I can see that a certain part of the ground needs to be covered, then I will say to my sweeper you know, move left or move right. And I expect them to do that because that's how I you know, that's how I enact our defensive strategy. I can see what's required.
Speaker 1:I determine the outcome of the relationship and then within that, when you are in a high status, say, context and you're operating out of high status, so we would say that your body language is contained, your speech is measured and your gaze is steady and that you don't feel the silences. And I think that's really a pivotal thing within, within. If you're, if you're someone that has recognized that they've got a bit of a bias towards low status, making friends, being easy to get along with, being amenable, being collegial, um, you know, papering over the cracks, making sure everybody feels okay and you want to practice being more high status perhaps you're in a relationship where you're always taking the low status position then the thing to do is use less language and don't fill the silences, because what people with a low status bias do is they fill the silences yep, I think that there, that there's another piece of advice that needs to go along with that, otherwise it just becomes performative.
Speaker 2:Oh, it's a big word.
Speaker 1:David.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean okay. So I mean what I mean about being performative if you pretend to drop status or you pretend to hold status, then it can come across as being inauthentic.
Speaker 1:Well, you can pretend.
Speaker 2:You can pretend, you can pretend, you can pretend, you can pretend, and sometimes that pretending won't work because it looks like it's obvious that you're pretending. I think a good thing to make sure that whatever it is that you choose to do is effective is to get really clear on what it is that you choose to do is effective, is to get really clear on what it is that you want to achieve. So, if I can describe, say, say, say, if we're having a conversation around our next holiday, right, then I will think about what do I, what do I want to achieve in this conversation? Yeah, now, if what I want to achieve in the conversation is to have the holiday destination that I want, if that's the thing that I value more than anything else, then that's the cue to take high status. I want to go to Antarctica. I want to save, I want to spend a week on an Antarctic base. That's what I want to do.
Speaker 2:It is helpful to have that clear intention If I want to take your advice, and that is be spare. Keep your eye gaze.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get that, but you still may have to use language you're not particularly comfortable with. Yeah, you still may have to not fill the silences, you still may have to keep your head still, which is not intuitively what you want to do. So you sort of are faking it till you make it are you?
Speaker 2:No, look, I agree that you may need to do all of those things, but I think that if you do them at the service of an intention that you are clear about, then you do it more effectively. You know, I'm going to use the authentic word here. Please don't use the authentic word.
Speaker 1:It's horrible. I'm going to use the authentic word here. Please don't use the authentic word. It's horrible.
Speaker 2:I'm going to use the authentic word because I'm not defining it as sounding authentic. I'm talking about being authentic, like if we're having a holiday conversation. Well, go on, have it. Okay, the holiday conversation. Yeah do it.
Speaker 1:Hi David.
Speaker 2:We recognize that I drop status in the holiday conversation. We recognize that, David. We recognize that I drop status in the holiday conversation.
Speaker 1:We recognize that yeah.
Speaker 2:And that's my bias around. I want to have peace at any price. Happy wife, happy life, you know that kind of thing, yeah. So if my intention is to have the holiday where I want it, that's one thing, but if my intention is actually to give you what you want, Well that's what you should always be doing anyway.
Speaker 1:Like I said, you haven't want.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what you should always be doing anyway, that is like I said. Well, you haven't noticed that that's what I do. I have noticed it's very appreciated and and it's actually authentic because I genuinely want you to have the holiday that you want to have. So, because it is authentic, then I will do the the low status I don't think what you've made sense is made.
Speaker 1:what you have just talked about made doesn't make much sense to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't get what you're saying, I'm saying okay, your advice is if you want to do high status, pretend to be high status.
Speaker 1:Well, just do the things, change your posture, use less language. If you can drop your voice down, do so. Voice down, do so. So let's just say um, I'm in a relationship with you and you're um controlling and I don't want that. All right, okay yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:You want me to, you want me to play that, that, that character yeah, yeah, okay, um, any yeah let's just say I'm naturally low status, yeah, and let's say it's early in the relationship when the dynamic can still be changed. Yeah, okay, annie. Yeah, let's just say I'm naturally low status, yeah, and let's say it's early in the relationship when the dynamic can still be changed.
Speaker 2:Oh right, okay, go, do we share a car?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, I want you to park the car on the lower levels behind the security door.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry what.
Speaker 2:I want you to park the car every time on the lower level. I notice that you've been parking in the public car park.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I know it's closer to the escalator. It is.
Speaker 2:But the thing is that you've got this lovely new car. You want to look after it. You don't want to leave it in public. Oh, that is why we have security gates. Okay, so I want you to go down to level three and park down there from now on.
Speaker 1:Is that clear? Oh, it takes me longer. That's why I'll have to use the fob twice.
Speaker 2:Well, that's what's necessary. I mean, for God's sake, you're a grown-up. Use the fob twice, get the car into a safe place, do you understand?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's clear. Okay, yeah, good, I don't want to see it in the public car park ever again, okay.
Speaker 2:Good, thank you.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in that scenario, David was the high-status Siamese cat, correct?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I was the low-status Labrador. Yeah, now what should I have done? You tell me what I should have done and let's try it. So let's take it apart, okay, well, because in that moment, emotionally, I don't want the trouble, I don't want the drama, right?
Speaker 2:For me. I can't break that down without asking you the question what do you actually want to achieve in that conversation? Well, I just want to park where I want to park. You want to park where you want to park? Yeah, okay, so your intention is to park where you want to park. Yeah, yeah yeah, and so, in order to do that, you always take the car down to B3.
Speaker 1:Yeah, but you're very used. Let's just say you're the sort of man who's very, very used to getting what you want.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, okay, okay.
Speaker 1:So what I would suggest to you is that you don't. If you were coaching me.
Speaker 2:Let's just say, if I was coaching you, yeah, okay. Well, why don't you just try coming back and be with high status?
Speaker 1:and let.
Speaker 2:So, annie, I notice you've been parking the car in the public car park. I want you to take it downstairs to B3, behind the security door.
Speaker 1:Why should I? I don't want to do that. I don't want to park. What do you mean?
Speaker 2:Well, of course, listen, you've spent all this money on this new car you want to keep it safe. You don't want to leave it out. I'm worried that someone's going to scratch it. Well, I understand that I am responsible for, you know, keeping up with the payments, and this is what.
Speaker 1:I'm asking you to do Well. I don't want to go down two floors and then have to fog my way what you want to die in a ditch over this.
Speaker 2:I can't believe that you're being so recalcitrant.
Speaker 1:I'm not being recalcitrant, I'm just saying I don't want to go down two floors, I just want to park in the public car park.
Speaker 2:This sounds like a lot of drama.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, so what should I do? Okay, that was too hard. That again is how arguments escalate. Did that work?
Speaker 2:for you. I didn't get what? I wanted. Do you think you were going to get what you wanted? No, okay, I reckon a really great story that's out there in the public realm is the African Queen.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:It's a really great story about status.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, I guess for your listeners, we.
Speaker 1:Humphrey Bogart and Catherine Hepburn.
Speaker 2:Humphrey Bogart and Catherine Hepburn were in the film, but I was preparing for an audition one day and the character was English and in order to work on my you know, pl plummy English accent, I got a recording of Edward Woodward reading EM Foster's the African Queen. Yeah, and I thought that'd be a great play for Annie to play the character of Rose Sayer, and so we adapted the African Queen from the novel and it was a stage play.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was good.
Speaker 2:And in the first act there's a very pivotal moment where Rose, the character that Annie wanted to play, wanted to take the boat down the river, through the rapids to the lake, where they could then torpedo a German battleship that was ruling the lake, and my character, Charlie Allnut. He didn't want to go because he thought it would be suicide going down the rapids.
Speaker 1:Gee, we were good in that too.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it was great, it was a great play. And Rose insisted that they go and Charlie Allnut held status and he said no, we're not going, it'll be suicide. You know, there's no way that we are going to do that and we're not going to risk our lives and try and execute your ridiculous plan.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And what did Rose do?
Speaker 1:Did she just not talk?
Speaker 2:She gave him the silent treatment.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right, she gave him the silent treatment. That's right. Yeah, that's right, she gave him the silent treatment, that's right. Yeah, that's right, she stopped talking. And I think that is redolent of many relationships where that is someone's strategy to get. What they want is just to shut it down and give someone the silent treatment, because it's quite difficult to deal with someone if they're not talking. Right?
Speaker 2:oh, terrible, yeah, terrible, and I mean it was particularly difficult on the boat because charlie allnut didn't have anyone else to talk to yeah, and he was garrulous he loved to chat yeah you know, he was the kind of man who, who would think out loud, that's right and uh. And when he wasn't able to talk to anybody, it sent him crazy, and so what he eventually did was he acquiesced and he agreed to steer the boat down the rapids, and the rest is history.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Or at least the rest is the second act.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:When off they go.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And fortune favoured the brave in that story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and what does acquiesce mean?
Speaker 2:Oh, to acquiesce. To acquiesce is to concede, it's to agree to something.
Speaker 1:So the silent treatment in that example actually worked. It did Because he couldn't stand it. But how do you deal with the silent treatment if you want to keep the dialogue going but the person is giving you the silent treatment?
Speaker 2:Well, I think the principle here and it's actually the principle around dealing with a lot of unhelpful status behavior it's two stages. First, you say, can I tell you what I notice is happening at the moment?
Speaker 1:right. So let's just say we've had a dispute about something we've had a dispute about um? What have we had the dispute about?
Speaker 2:our holiday, say you know, I've said we're not going to go to thailand and I won't talk to you. Yeah and you're not talking to me, I'll just shut it down.
Speaker 1:Yeah and I must say that there is a definite feeling of power, um, that comes from just not responding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that power to withhold is yeah yeah, and I and I, and I think that the power of withholding is that there are, is that you could be dealing with anything, and that's the problem you could be dealing with anything, and that's the problem you could be dealing with anything. When someone is not talking, they could be thinking anything.
Speaker 1:They could be about to do anything.
Speaker 2:Anything could happen, and that is a very Frightening yeah, it's frightening for the person who has to deal with it.
Speaker 1:What often happens in relationships with women and men is that the men just stop, they just withhold, yeah, and it's awful. So let's just say um, you've said we're not going to thailand. I've stopped talking and I'm meaning about the house and doing whatever okay now what happens if you say to me from a high status place you're giving me the silent treatment at the moment.
Speaker 2:You know you're sulking.
Speaker 1:Stop sulking now you'll notice, listeners, I've done exactly nothing with that, because all that has done is pushed me further in the direction of keeping my status intact by saying nothing. I'm liking the feeling and I don't have to reply to him and I won't reply to him. So the more his status goes up, the more I hold my position.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. So we've kind of locked horns. We've locked horns, we're like two mooses Mooses.
Speaker 1:We're like two moose. Mooses, we're two mooses, yeah, yeah On the plains.
Speaker 2:And so to come at someone giving you the silent treatment from a high status place Doesn't work. It doesn't work. So what I'm just going to do is I'm going to say Okay, let's just say I've been silent for two hours Silent.
Speaker 1:Two hours Silent, silent, silent, gone. Can I tell you what I've noticed? Now? There's something about David's tone that has affected my capacity to keep the silent treatment going, because he's starting to name it, and as soon as something is named, it's difficult to sort of keep the the fence around it intact, and so he's begun to name it by saying I've noticed something yeah, I mean, I definitely want to name it, but I'm not.
Speaker 2:If I was to name it straight off yeah then that would be high status yeah, what would that? Look like well. Annie, since the conversation about the holiday, you've been giving me the silent treatment, and I don't like it right and that didn't, and that's just sent me further into putting more fence posts around myself. But what he did instead was say Annie can I tell you what I'm noticing at the moment?
Speaker 1:Now he's dropped status Okay. You'll notice that his voice is different and if you could see him, you would notice that he's sort of dropped in the middle. His hands are in his lap and he has a more supplicant sort of feel about him and so that has done something to the emotional part of my brain and it would seem it almost feels foolish if I just keep going with the silent treatment.
Speaker 2:So he has just say that again can I tell you what I'm noticing going on this afternoon?
Speaker 1:now I'm not prepared to let go immediately. So I'm going to sigh a big, deep sigh to show I'm really unhappy about it first, and then I'm going to go yeah, what, still holding on to it, what yeah?
Speaker 2:Since we talked about the holiday.
Speaker 1:Notice he didn't rush, he didn't come in on top of me. Yeah, keep going, yeah, yeah. Since the conversation about the holiday, you've been completely silent now, he has named my strategy, but what he hasn't done is make me wrong for it. He's just identified it, and that's the difference, and I can feel in myself even though I know this is just a role play scene that it's hard for me to sustain it now, and so just say that again since the conversation about the holiday yeah I notice that you've been silent well, well noticed, david, because, okay, coming out of character, I'm still trying to keep my power in the situation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I have been silent. Now you can notice that I'm quite high status and a bit angry now. If david's a really good communicator, he's not going to pick up on that anger because he's he's focused on the outcome that he wants. So I'm gonna, so I'm gonna say that again. Yeah, well noticed, I am angry, angry I am. That's why I'm not talking, I'm angry, okay.
Speaker 2:What do you want me to know about the way you're feeling, you know, or what you're thinking?
Speaker 1:Good question. So he's now identifying my emotional state and everyone loves that. Well, I'm just. I'm really angry and I'm disappointed, Remembering that listeners often underneath anger is something else, and it's often sadness, disappointment. So probably what I'm feeling is disappointed and a bit powerless.
Speaker 2:Say that again um, yeah, I mean what? What do you want me to? What do you want me to know about what you're feeling or thinking at the moment?
Speaker 1:I'm just, I just really I feel really shut down. I really wanted to go to thailand. I'd sort of been looking at the holidays and um, and I just I just feel really disappointed that I'm not going to go there now. Just let me say right at this moment listeners, I've come out of character. This interaction, where david has started to expose what's going on for me and why I'm giving him the silent treatment, does not mean he has to roll over, and this is a very good one. This is reversed. If you're in a situation in a marriage and the husband does this and you've managed to work out what's going on, it doesn't mean you have to roll over and accede to their request. I was really disappointed that we couldn't go there. That's all I really had been looking at pick, the hotel and everything so you're really disappointed.
Speaker 2:Just just help me understand. What is it that you're most disappointed about. Is it is it? Is it not going overseas, or is it Thailand in particular, or is it the timing of it?
Speaker 1:And then he's going and I've come out of character. He's gone from the general to the specific, and that's always the smart thing to do if you're in a debate of any kind go from the general to the specific. Well, I don't care that much about Thailand, but I just want to go on a plane. I want to go somewhere warm. It's freezing in Sydney at the moment.
Speaker 2:Absolutely so. You'd be happy to go somewhere warm. Yep, can I tell you why I'm not that keen on Thailand right now?
Speaker 1:Now he's asked me a question from a low status position, which sounds if he asked that from a high status position go.
Speaker 2:Listen, can I tell you why I think Thailand's the wrong place to go to?
Speaker 1:Now it's hard on a podcast, but can you hear the tonal difference? And he looks different. There's a challenge in his eyes and my limbic system, my emotional brain, will pick that up. But he dropped status. He says that again. Can.
Speaker 2:I tell you why I'm not that keen on Thailand at the moment.
Speaker 1:Now that's very difficult, if someone's dropped status, for me to keep hitting back like full volume with a tennis racket because I look like an idiot. So I'm going to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, Don't know whether you know this, but they relatively recently decriminalized cannabis use. Oh, and so the places that we would be going to, that has now triggered a whole lot of kind of drug tourism. People are actually visiting Thailand because they know that they've got easy access to cannabis.
Speaker 1:I didn't know that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean, does that concern you? At?
Speaker 1:all yeah, and I don't want to go there now, so we're going to come out of the scene now. Is that true about Thailand and cannabis? Yeah, what, truly.
Speaker 2:No, it's true, and it hasn't been working for them because of the tourism destination thing.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:So I think they're going to try and scale it back. I actually think that you need a prescription. They're winding it back to medical rather than recreational use.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I mean we don't need to keep going on with that scene, but you can see how, with skillful questioning and skillful use of the power dynamic you can, you can start to unpick um the dynamics of a conversation and you can find yourself in a better place and you're more likely to reach a solution that is amenable to you both um, I think one core factor that changes the dynamic dramatically is around getting clear on your intention for the conversation, because I think that some people, when they get into conversations that are leading to a decision, that was yo-yo barking.
Speaker 2:She's got high status, keep going um, when you're in a conversation that leads to a decision, people's internal biases around competition sometimes yeah, I think that's right they kick in, and if you are approaching this conversation from the perspective of, I don't want to lose this debate I don't want to lose this contest, then that will inform the way that you participate.
Speaker 2:You will start to be playing many more high-status, high-miss cat actions. Yeah, if your intention is actually to come up with the very best possible outcome for both of you, then you will be more inclined to relinquish status yeah you'll be more inclined.
Speaker 1:You'll be less inclined to keep score. That's right, okay. So I think what we know is that if every moment of every day there is a status dynamic and if you're blind to it, you're in danger, yeah, to uncover it and learn what drives you and start to get a handle on what these behaviors look like in other people, you're going to get much better outcomes. And I was just going to say, if anybody has a relationship dynamic or something that happens in the workplace that you'd like us to talk about, we'd love to hear it, we'd love to unpick it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, totally Totally, and we would certainly do it very respectfully and in a way that would help others understand that status can sometimes look like it is absolutely fixed. You know we have hierarchies, you know there are people who sit at the pointy end of the plane or you know who can take over half of Venice in order to have a conspicuous consumption, spending spree, wedding celebration, and it can look like those things are entrenched. But I think I actually think that status is far more dynamic and far more likely to change in a heartbeat than many characteristics. The truth is that you can shift your status in a relationship by changing the psychological actions that you're playing. You can deliberately choose to assert yourself or to yield in a conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you have to be aware of your drivers.
Speaker 1:You can comply, otherwise you're, or to yield in a conversation. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you have to be aware of your drivers. You can comply, otherwise you're not going to do that right.
Speaker 2:Look. We think that the investigation of status and your biases around status are worth further investigation.
Speaker 1:So if you think that you're a Siamese cat, or if you think in more context, or you think in more context, you're a Labrador puppy, let us know. We'd love to hear your stories. We really would. On that note, thank you for tuning in. I hope, wherever you are in the world, you are finding some peace and calm in this maelstrom that we find ourselves in at the moment. So, from the Northern Beaches, sydney, new South Wales, australia, see you later. Smart women Bye.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that.
Speaker 1:And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
