Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Bonus Ep: Considering the weight loss jab? Food noise get thee gone!
The battle with food cravings has met its match. After decades of diet culture telling us to just "be disciplined," science has finally acknowledged what many of us have always suspected – willpower was never going to win against our brain chemistry.
Proudly sponsored by COUP — helping brands cut through the noise with bold, smart marketing. Visit the http://coup.co website or book a meeting with us at. https://go.oncehub.com/RequestMeeting
What we call. Couldn't you have eaten before we'd started? Is food that critical?
Speaker 2:I was getting everything set up for the podcast and I didn't have it, but you could have got it set up and eaten the mandarin simultaneously.
Speaker 1:Now it's everywhere. You don't have a server, yet it's dripping on your pants. Oh my God, you are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. I'm Annie McCubbin. I'm here with David, who's chosen this moment to eat a mandarin.
Speaker 2:Yes, I'm hungry. I need to get a bit of you know natural, natural, natural sugar a bit of natural sugar. You know, get my brain working. You know, feed the grey matter. Is that okay? Yes, it's fine.
Speaker 1:So today we're going to be discussing the fraught topic of whether or not we should be taking weight loss drugs. You would have to have been living in a cave not to see the amount of publicity that we are now getting about the efficacy and ease of losing weight through taking weight loss drugs. So what we're going to do is that's really just distracting me you eating a mandarin? Why would you choose where we get onto the podcast to eat a mandarin? Couldn't you have eaten before we'd started? Is food that critical?
Speaker 2:I was getting everything set up for the podcast, but you could have got it set up and eaten the mandarin simultaneously.
Speaker 1:Now it's everywhere. You don't have a server, yet it's dripping on your pants, oh, anyway. So weight loss drugs. So this is this is my point. Okay, what I'm going to do is start with an excerpt from my excellent book why smart women make bad decisions, which I wrote. Well, actually, it was published in 2021 and we are now in 2025, and it's interesting even to look back over a four-year period and see how much our thinking has changed around weight loss.
Speaker 1:So what I'll do is I'm going to play this little clip where Kat, the central character, the central character talks about her process around weight, weight loss and the obsessional nature of thinking about every single thing that goes into her mouth and, like David with the Mandarin, and how that affects her thinking. I think Kat is a really good avatar for all of us who spend vast quantities of time thinking about what we're eating, what we should be eating. If it's okay that I ate that, what I'm going to eat later. Did I eat something earlier that I shouldn't be? You know, that's going to affect what I'm going to eat later. How many calories have I consumed? Have I done enough exercise to offset the number of calories. So this is a bit that I wrote about her internal monologue and her relationship with other people in her circle who are also dealing with some of the same issues. So I'll let you listen to that and at the end of it, um, we'll talk about weight loss drugs.
Speaker 1:She starts off by talking about her cat and her cat's relationship to its own body image, because the cat is quite fat. The cat has a weight problem. You are fat, fat, fat, fat. Since the hipster left you two days, six months and 14 hours ago, you've enjoyed a heroic amount of chardonnay, but now you've taken yourself in hand. Last week you lost half a kilo and executed a lame air punch in the bathroom. The cat was in the bathroom at the time, not weighing herself. She has a positive body image. If she could understand the principles of mirrors she might not have. She's quite fat. You feed her a lot of chicken to ensure her continued tenancy. She has not, to the best of your knowledge, been in a juice fast and does not talk online to the Siamese next door about detoxing and clean eating. You, however, have been clean eating for six weeks.
Speaker 1:This current dietary phase was precipitated by an online article accompanied by before and after photos of a girl called Darcy Harrington. Darcy swore that her body's dramatic and rapid transformation was a result of getting back to nature Organic, clean eating juice, fasting, detoxing and eschewing vaccinations. Vaccinations were a plot by Big Pharma to fill your body with toxins and possibly make you autistic, said Darcy. If your body wasn't struggling with all the toxins caused by vaccinations, processed foods, dairy gluten, sugar, chemicals and GMOs, it would naturally restore itself to its ideal weight. Our bodies were not designed for the toxic, unnatural environment we were forced to exist in, she said.
Speaker 1:She sat in front of the camera in all her clear-skinned thinness and spoke of how she'd been dieting for years but had finally stopped. Wanting to be thin was so yesterday. Darcy simply wanted to be healthy, fit and clean. She certainly looked clean and thin. To be honest, you weren't that bothered about the healthy, clean thing, and your cousin had developed measles as an adult as a result of your aunt being a serious anti-vaxxer. He nearly died and didn't speak to your aunt for two years. So you think Darcy's anti-vax stance is seriously wacky too. It was the thinness you were after. You'd imagined yourself in a month's time You'd run into the hipster at a club. He'd be amazed and stunned by your thin beauty. He'd want to buy you a drink and tell you how sorry he was. But he wouldn't be able to get near you. Surrounded as you were by fawning, adoring men, your envious co-workers would gather around you and say you look amazing.
Speaker 2:Really.
Speaker 1:You'd say sipping your celery juice. Thanks, yes, I've lost three kilos. They'd ask how you did it and you would say I just ate clean and exercised more. It's not rocket science. Unfortunately, despite all the detoxing and clean eating, you've put the half kilo back on again since last week. You'd looked online for an explanation for this vengeful withholding of weight loss by your body, and the internet had reassuringly suggested it was probably fluid. You hate fluid. Fluid is to blame for everything. Rain is fluid and it's wildly inconvenient.
Speaker 1:Take Amelia at work. She's thin. You asked her the other day how she did it. I can't keep weight on, she'd said no matter what I eat, it just goes straight through me. You'd wanted to stab her in the eyes with your quinoa and kale salad fork. Instead you said Well, I think you look amazing. At which point she grimaced and said you should try having to find clothes you like in a size four. She'd walked away on her little stick legs and you'd chewed on your quinoa and kale salad and imagined yourself calling out to the shop assistant this size four is too big, do you have a two?
Speaker 1:Today, when you get to work, you're told it's Georgia's birthday. They're having cake in the communal area. Around the corner, it's chocolate mud, says thin Amelia. This sends you into a spiralling panic. You love chocolate mud cake. If you approach the chocolate mud cake, you will be lost. Not only will you have the fluid-induced half a kilo to deal with, you'll also have potentially another kilo on top of that. It would be intolerable. I can't come. You say I've got a proposal to knock out before five. Thin Amelia's not buying it. Come on, she says firmly. George is new.
Speaker 1:You approach the communal area, there is the sugar, dairy, gluten-laden cake. There is new Georgia. She is also thin At that moment, faintly overweight. Jenny moves into view. You watch her trajectory, hoping she will join you at the cake table. But she deftly avoids it by waving her hands and indicating with a medley of facial expressions that she'd love to stay. But she's on the ropes with her project. Damn her. Where's the solidarity you have now drawn parallel with the cake. You will only have a sliver just to be welcoming to thin new Georgia. No, says thin new Georgia. Have a decent piece, for God's sake. You only live once. New Georgia, have a decent piece, for God's sake. You only live once. It's true, you do only live once and you've had an awful two months, five days and 20 hours since the hipster left, taking the couch, juicer kettle, moroccan silver teapot and matching glasses, heater, washing machine, dryer, coffee table and TV remote with him.
Speaker 1:You'll get off the train three stations early tonight and walk. You'll get up at six tomorrow morning and go to the gym before work and only eat miso soup and rice crackers. Two large pieces of cake later you'd feel sick. The hipster would have said Serves you right for eating toxic sugar Fructose, the most evil of all sugars never passed by his tiny teeth. You are losing interest in your getting-off-three-stations early plan. Your thin co-workers are now talking about going out for drinks and a Thai meal. A nice pad Thai would offset the evil fructose which has gummed up your mouth.
Speaker 1:That evening you are sitting in the back of a cab. You can't afford the thought of walking to the train station. Having defeated you, you look out the window of the cab. The train station having defeated you, you look out the window of the cab and see a skinny, stray dog scavenging his way through some garbage. His world is not one of a cornucopia of ever available delicious food. He's obviously doing intermittent fasting with some success. Intermittent fasting is clearly the way. The modern world is too replete with temptation. You are clearly eating too often. You must break the habit.
Speaker 1:You will go to a pet-friendly health farm. You and the cat will get back on track to health and fitness. After your stay at the pet-friendly health farm you will have established fabulous new habits. You will acclimatise the cat to being walked on a lead. You'll be famous throughout the neighbourhood for being the fit woman with the hilarious cat who walks on a lead. If you can't find any pet-friendly health farms, you'll raise the capital and open one. It'll be a world first Up in some hinterlands somewhere. Healthy places where you can reclaim your wellness are always set in hinterlands.
Speaker 1:The cat will age gracefully sitting in the foyer of the pet-friendly health farm while you carry clients' luggage to their rooms effortlessly with your muscular arms. You and the cat will be an inspiration to all guests and pets, combining brilliant business acumen, creative marketing and a hugely successful top 10 Christmas gift book Wellness for you and your Pet. Also, the hipster will try and book in, but the pet-friendly health farm will be booked out solidly for at least a year. You arrive at the flats and get out of the cab. The cat is staring at you from the lounge room window, blissfully unaware that her chicken ration is about to be halved. You wave at her. She lifts a paw, places it on the glass. She's going to be a real winner at the farm, ok, so I hope you enjoyed that little clip.
Speaker 2:I certainly did. That was fantastic.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm so good.
Speaker 2:So you wrote that four years ago.
Speaker 1:Well, it was published four years ago.
Speaker 2:It had taken me a couple of years prior to that to write it and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that that was just around about the time that we started to hear about a Zempik, wasn't?
Speaker 1:it Did we.
Speaker 2:I don't remember hearing about a Zempik, wasn't it, did we? I don't remember hearing about a Zempik in In 21. But I think it's safe to assume that you had no idea about a Zempik. Well, it wasn't in the zeitgeist it wasn't in the zeitgeist when you wrote why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions.
Speaker 1:What was in the zeitgeist and what is still in the zeitgeist is some very, very dodgy dieting ideas, like, dodgy dieting ideas, like. So you know, there was some really, really dodgy, dodgy ideas, and there still are, you know, clean eating amongst them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:Clean eating, intermittent fasting, which there's some evidence that it works, but it's still very difficult for people to adhere to the keto diet.
Speaker 2:If I go back, I think about the Atkins diet.
Speaker 1:And what was that?
Speaker 2:I think the Atkins diet was very high protein. And then there was the South Beach diet.
Speaker 1:Well, you're going right right, right back.
Speaker 2:Yes, I mean, there was the CSIRO, one which we couldn't expect to be scientifically valid.
Speaker 1:Well, I think it is, and they've really arrived at the notion that you know, fundamentally, just eat a Mediterranean diet. But that really doesn't impact on the battle, the daily battle that goes on inside our own brains, between the limbic system, which is terrified that you're going to die of starvation.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, right, I feel that way most of the time.
Speaker 1:Well, you've got to eat. What's it like for you?
Speaker 2:What's it like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, the food cravings, the food noises. You've got a lot of food noise, haven't you?
Speaker 2:I have a lot of food noise.
Speaker 1:Explain food noise.
Speaker 2:Food noise. Well look, food noise was a term that I heard described only very, very recently.
Speaker 1:It's good, though it's accurate, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, that was my experience. When I heard this, I thought oh yeah, that explains it perfectly. If you remember, there was a celebrity health and well-being doctor, dr Michael Mosley.
Speaker 1:Oh, so sad, so sad.
Speaker 2:Very, very popular. He very, very popular. He did a lot of programs about weight loss and, of course, he was the author of the fast A 5-2.
Speaker 1:The 5-2. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:And was it the 800, under 800 diet? I mean, his research said that rapid weight loss is actually okay. People who do the rapid weight loss are more likely to succeed because they're getting confirmation that the effort that they're going to is delivering results. And so there is that body of work from Dr Michael Mosley. I should know the name of his son, but I heard the other day on the radio that his son has now continued and he's written a book called Noise or maybe it's Food Noise. Oh, that's funny. And the concept is that inside the human mind, the human mind that is struggling with appetite, that there's noise, and sometimes this noise can be enormously distracting. You know, I can't do the next task until I have some chocolate. I can't have this conversation and complete all of these activities unless I get some carbohydrate. And so, yeah, he's identified the phenomena of a noise in your head that must be listened to, otherwise it's just incredibly distracting.
Speaker 1:And we know that comes out of the emotional part of the brain.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Right. And then what we try and do which is why willpower is just such a poor master is you try and then engage the executive function part of your brain to have an argument with the limbic system. So the limbic system is going. For God's sake, you just have the cake. Have the cake.
Speaker 2:You've had a rough day.
Speaker 1:It's been a big day and now you've got to work for three hours. Have the cake and a big hot chocolate and you're going to feel better.
Speaker 2:And the prefrontal cortex is saying just say no. Just say no no to the cake. You know, a moment on the lips, a lifetime on the hips yep, and we what continually wins? Um, uh, the first voice, the first voice that says I need the hot chocolate and the muffins yeah, yeah, it's, it's louder, it's just, it's just, it's.
Speaker 1:But that battle and and the thing is that we there's such a a social um, there's a social disparagement about people that carry weight.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that are undisciplined.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's this real judgment and I have heard people say I wouldn't hire somebody overweight because obviously they've got no self-discipline. They've even done studies where they know that there is an implication or an inference that people who are very overweight just don't have the same intellectual capacity, and it's completely wrong. It's completely wrong. It's so wrong, it's so unfair.
Speaker 2:And look the thing that I'll say about that voice that says no, have the coffee and the muffin, you know. Have that nice warm glass of milk with some honey in it. The thing about you said that voice is louder. I think that that voice is actually cleverer. It's smarter.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, interesting.
Speaker 2:Because just say no.
Speaker 1:Just say no, no to drugs. You'll regret it.
Speaker 2:It's kind of like a, it's like a one-shot wonder, right, yeah, but the thing about the uh, the voice that says come on, you deserve it, or come on, you really need this, otherwise you're going to, you know, lose concentration yeah, or it's smarter, it's doing constant work. That's right it it's got so many, so many options, persuasive options, yeah, and and I think that I mean my.
Speaker 1:You know I can only talk about my own personal experience, but when that voice wins, um, it's probably because it's had so many, so many strategies in play at the time yeah, smart, and I think, and then, of course and I mean so many, so many of my friends you know we talk about this all the time that you think I'm not going to today, I'm going to be good, and that's the other thing is this I'm going to be good today, um, and I think that's the other.
Speaker 1:It's awful that we there is a value put on our capacity to restrain ourselves and we're either good or we're bad. So that's really bad, because then the judgmental thing comes in. So it's like I'm going to be good today and I'm going to. You'll notice that in the clip that I played, she was going to have miso soup and crackers and that's the way she was going to do it.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:That's the way the character decided She'd eaten that and that was bad, but never mind, because tomorrow was another day. So that notion of today I'm going to be good and then what happens is you're not good, yeah, you've had the lambing turn, or whatever and so you've disappointed yourself again disappoint yourself again, bad, bad, and then you give up for the day, and you give up for the day.
Speaker 2:Today's a write-off but, but, but not only that, having sort of given up um and and feeling bad about yourself, do you know what would make you feel a little better?
Speaker 1:in this moment, your yummy food it's gone a muffin a bit of chocolate, a bit of chocolate, yeah, I got it.
Speaker 1:I got it. So, and as we know, there's that very interesting um brain glitch. If we're talking about critical thinking, where, when you think about yourself in the future which is where you have to think about yourself if you want to be disciplined if I don't eat this, if I do exercise, then future, if I save the money, then future me is going to benefit. Unfortunately, when you think about future you you're thinking about, it's the same part of the brain that fires off as if it is a stranger yeah so the bit of your brain that identifies a stranger, that's where future you sits.
Speaker 1:Isn't that just nuts?
Speaker 2:yeah, and if I don't feel particularly, you know, fond of future me well, I don't care about future me, because future me is a stranger I'd rather, I'd rather deal with present me, present me and present me, wants, wants, present me, wants a muffin.
Speaker 1:Wants a muffin. You bought six yesterday.
Speaker 2:No, I didn't how many did you buy? I know you're going to. You bought four. You're trying to muffin, shame me at the moment. I bought only four muffins and I bought the muffins for Harrison.
Speaker 1:That's exactly right. Harry's sitting here nodding. Harry, how many of those muffins did you have?
Speaker 2:One Look look, the fact that I've knocked off a couple in the last 24 hours is because I'm under an enormous amount of stress at the moment.
Speaker 1:And that's what you do with the stress. Well, yeah, that's fair enough. I mean, I have compulsions, mine are more in the area of wanting to buy things yes that's where my compulsions, I think, if I buy that cardigan, yes, if I buy that dress, if I buy that pair of gloves, if I buy that lip gloss everything will be okay I'll be great yeah, I feel great everything so that's where I tend to play it out more.
Speaker 2:Except for jelly babies. I really like jelly beans Jelly beans, I love them. I love them. The sugary things I love lollies. I don't like those sugary things so much. I love lollies. I like the fat better.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I get it, so whether it's rubbish, because they did eat grains so it's stupid it's really stupid. Plus, we were dead, so who cared what we ate? We got killed by something. By the time we were 40. We got a cut dead at 41, you know, felled felled by a lightning and maybe not like all, right all right by another, you know person but things are better now.
Speaker 2:Things are better. Things are better now and and I wanted to- have a go at organics, which is really stupid why are you having a go at organics? I mean, you know they're natural, they it's, it's total rubbish also total rubbish yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:It's just a big marketing ploy. Do not pay more for organic. Do not do it. It is the most unregulated, ridiculous industry. Also, gmos actually are really good. No one's ever died from a genetically modified product. Also, gmos mean that they can use less pesticide spraying.
Speaker 2:Okay. Anyway, more people have died of starvation than have died from consuming GMOs, so let's look at the fact that obesity rates since the 70s have risen exponentially. Aren't we the second fattest country in the world, australia Don't? We have the second highest level of obesity, following the great United States of America.
Speaker 1:Well, let's have a look, shall we? The number of obese children and adolescents aged 5 to 19 years worldwide has risen tenfold in the past four decades.
Speaker 2:Tenfold.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and we know that once you've developed those sort of eating habits, it's very, very difficult to change them.
Speaker 2:So does that mean that humanity has, just you know, developed a shocking lack of discipline? No, so here's the interesting thing.
Speaker 1:Shocking lack of discipline. No, and here's the interesting thing, that we treat obesity as if it is a problem of the individual. We treat obesity as if people should just apply more discipline to what they eat and they should exercise more.
Speaker 2:But it is not an individual problem, it is a societal problem and your evidence is that the obesity rates have increased fourfold around the world.
Speaker 1:So in in and in 2021, higher than optimal bmi. So, um, bmi is the body mass index and we know that. You know there's all this sort of fuss about it at the moment that if you get the BMI is not the greatest indicator because if you're muscly, then you're going to be heavier but it might be more muscle and fats. But, generally speaking, we can say across a population that BMI is not a bad measure, that BMI is not a bad measure. So 2021, higher than optimal BMI caused an estimated 3.7 million deaths from non-communicable diseases such as cardiovascular diabetes, cancers, neurological, chronic respiratory diseases and digestive disorders.
Speaker 1:Right, and we know that obesity is a socio socioeconomic problem and if you are on the lower end of the socioeconomic scale, no fault of yours, then you have less access to public spaces that you can exercise in, for starters, and you have less access to healthy, cheaper food. You have more access to high processed food and you have less time. So if I'm a single mother and I'm living out in the western suburbs of Sydney, I'm probably holding down two jobs. I don't have time to be going to the supermarket, buying expensive vegetables, going getting some lean protein, going home cooking it and serving it to my children. I'm exhausted at the end of the day and I'm probably going to go and grab some KFC and I totally get that. So it is socioeconomic and there's major social impacts on whether or not we are healthy or not impacts on whether or not we are healthy or not.
Speaker 2:So enter the weight loss drugs Ozempic, wagovi and Associates. I was going to suggest that there might be an interesting, just a funny little link to that. You know how we were talking about, how the mind has lots, of, lots of techniques.
Speaker 2:Yeah to circumvent yeah, you know to circumvent the, the voice of the discipline. You know the, the discipline that says just say no. Um, the, the mind, can play all of these interesting tricks and strategies to. You know to get around that, to make it okay for you to eat. If only there was something that could quieten that food noise.
Speaker 1:If only there was and hey there is these drugs, quiet the food noise. Now there is.
Speaker 2:That's how they work yeah, I think, to understand the way that these drugs work, it's helpful to understand the way that the body processes information that leads to us eating. Or the brain? Yeah, the brain. So these mechanisms happen in human bodies because of very particular brain chemicals, neurotransmitters.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so you get a certain stimuli, it'll trigger the production of these neurotransmitters. They will then, you know, attach to certain receptors in the brain, yeah, and then the brain will form an opinion, which is the only way that I'm going to get through the afternoon is to have another muffin and an extra coffee, yeah. To have another muffin and an extra coffee, yeah. So it's the connection between neurons, hormones, neurotransmitters. You know, those are the mechanisms that drive these kinds of behaviors.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so the big thing is that GLP-1 drugs and what they do. They then attach themselves to the GLP receptor in the brain. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Okay, so it interrupts the mechanism that leads to appetite.
Speaker 1:So how this works is there are GLP-1 receptors in the brain. These are proteins located on the surface of cells that bind to the hormone glucagon-like peptide 1, glp-1, right.
Speaker 2:Is that what GLP stands for? That's right.
Speaker 1:So these receptors in the brain play a really, really crucial role in regulating blood sugar levels right, particularly in response to food intake, so they stimulate insulin release from the pancreas and they inhibit glucagon secretion. They're also involved in appetite regulation, weight management, with glp1 receptor agonist being used to treat and here's the big thing type 2 diabetes and obesity. So this is why we're hard up against it. So, in terms of appetite and satiety, which I've never been able to say satiety, thank you, we don't know. Whatever it is are you satiated?
Speaker 2:yeah, I know what it means, but satiety anyway.
Speaker 1:In the brain, glp1 receptor activation can promote feelings of fullness and reduce appetite, contributing to weight loss. Also, glp1 can slow down the rate at which food empties from the stomach, potentially leading to increased feelings of fullness. So GLP-1 receptor agonists, which is what we're talking about, are a class of medications that mimic the effects of GLP-1 and they're used to treat type 2 diabetes and obesity. Yep.
Speaker 2:And they treat them simply by driving a behavioral change, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean, it's not like the chemistry in the body dissolves all the fat oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, not at all, not at all, not at all so it just makes you less susceptible to being driven to eat.
Speaker 2:So you eat less, you lose weight. It helps with your diabetes, it helps with your obesity yeah, so it so often.
Speaker 1:Weirdly, once people start on these um drugs, they find that their lust for fresh and unpackaged alternatives is replaced with with cravings for for, like you know, pineapple and cucumber and ginger and lemons. Weird, right. So you take the drug and cucumber and ginger and lemons, weird Right.
Speaker 2:So you take the drug and you actually prefer to eat better food. Is that correct?
Speaker 1:Well, this is what they're saying. Is that what it does? It changes the quality of your appetite.
Speaker 2:Yep Well that's got to be a good thing, yeah. Look, there's loads and loads and loads and loads of upsides to this whole business is there change in preference, permanent, or does it only happen while you're on the drug?
Speaker 1:okay, here's the thing once you're on the drug, this, this notion of reduced appetite and changes in appetite preference, are temporary. As soon as you stop taking the drug, it all, um, it all returns. And they say that, remembering that the studies are a bit short term on this, even though the drug's been around for quite a while, but we haven't been using it for that long right for weight loss? Um, is that um for people that have stopped um? They regain the weight like 80 to 95 percent of it quite quickly what really?
Speaker 2:yeah, apparently 80 to 95 percent, you come off the drug.
Speaker 1:You basically put it back on again yeah, but here's an interesting critical thinking question. Is it like well, what are we doing, giving somebody a drug that they have to be on for life? Well, hello, hello, I'm on an asthma drug for life. Right, many, many people are on a blood pressure drug for life.
Speaker 1:Many people are on a statin for life yeah, I'm taking statins at the moment see, there you go so I think what we end up with here is a a bit of a moral panic about it and judgment about whether or not what you should be doing is just diet and exercising, and that if you give in in inverted commas then you're being weak and what you should be doing is doing it the proper way, not the cheaty way. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:I think that there's a lot of people who actually delight in being able to be superior. You know, I don't need the drug, and so the people who are taking the drug must be in some way inferior. They don't have my discipline or they don't have my yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so it's sort of like moral grandstanding.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is moral grandstanding.
Speaker 1:And instead of going look, um, clearly, this uptick in obesity is is because of the things I mentioned before, and the fact that we're constantly having that is systemic, yeah that, and that we're constantly having this very calorie dense, high sugar, high fat food in huge portions aimed at us. Instead of looking at that and going, how can we help, we're just doing, we're having some sort of moral judgment of people, which really irritates me, I tell you. What's interesting, though, is what's going to happen to the fast food industry.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, I guess it would depend on the scale, the scale of people actually using the drug and finding that they would rather eat pineapples than pizza.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, but I think that they're saying that there's two things there. One is that access to this drug is not equal. It's not an equal playing field right, that's right.
Speaker 2:In fact, the very, very first time I heard the word a Zempik was at an awards ceremony. It could have been the Emmys, or it could have been the Golden Globes or something like that in the United States, and the host it might have been Jimmy Kimmel. You know, looking around the room and talking about you know that the room was a testimony to the power of a Zempik, because all these Hollywood actors and actresses now have a surefire way of doing what Hollywood actors and actresses have to do in order to get a job, and that is to be as unnaturally thin as they possibly can be. And, of course, if that's your line of work, then whatever the costs of these drugs are is insubstantial. Are is insubstantial. But I mean, do you know what it costs to take a course of a Zempik or Wegovi? I think it's about $200 or $300 a month in Australia $200 or $300 a month yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, which is cost prohibitive, especially at the moment. We've got a cost of living crisis here in Australia.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So adding on top of that, which means, you know, an extra $300 or $400 or whatever you said, a month, right, I think $200 or $300. $200 or $300 a month is a lot.
Speaker 2:Unless.
Speaker 1:You're very wealthy Unless.
Speaker 2:You're wealthy Unless you're very wealthy or you know, maybe you consume $500 less fast food over a month if you're taking the drug.
Speaker 1:I don't mean. I don't know whether. Does that mean for the people that can't afford it and are walking around in larger bodies? Are we going to become more judgmental about it?
Speaker 2:Probably, but I do think that that is an unfortunate human bias, that when we look at the shape that other people are in, I think it's very easy to you know for that thought process to be triggered where you go well, at least I, I don't look like him, you know yeah, 100 percent.
Speaker 1:Um, so the other one of the big issues I know with it as well is that people lose weight and lose muscle mass. I have noticed as I've looked around me that I sort of can tell a bit if somebody has lost weight and it's because of a Zempik or an Align.
Speaker 2:What do you see?
Speaker 1:Just the way the weight goes and that they tend to lose muscle mass. You'd have to I think you'd have to be very careful to do a lot of weight building exercise so that you don't lose. You know you eat enough protein so you don't lose muscle mass, right, it does have a particular look, and I think also back to that notion of judgment. You know, at my gym we have before and after photos of somebody before they arrive at the gym carrying an extra 15 kilos.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they do the 29-day weight loss challenge.
Speaker 1:More than that for that amount. But whatever they do this big weight loss challenge and they eat, you know they get their diet.
Speaker 2:And they're celebrated, celebrated with photographs.
Speaker 1:Would you let me finish? Oh, I'm sorry I haven't finished my sentence, let me finish Sorry. Oh, I'm sorry, I haven't finished my sentence. Let me finish, sorry, oh, I'm just trying to tell a story. So they do the correct eating and they do the exercise, and then there's a before and after photo. Now, if somebody attends the gym and they do exercise, but they use a weight loss drug to assist, are they still going to be celebrated, or do we have a different judgment around? That is that like the easy way out?
Speaker 2:well, I think, of course, they should be celebrated yes, I agree I think I think that they should be celebrated, and because I know that they're taking some risks with all these kind of drugs.
Speaker 1:What are the risks? What is it that hasn't made people feel?
Speaker 2:I think it makes people feel nauseous. It can I mean to get the proper list of potential side effects? Read what's on the packet or do the research.
Speaker 1:It's different for every person. But I know there's a lot of anecdotal reporting that it makes people feel sick. There's some vomiting, there's, you know, quite a bit of nausea, which didn't make me want to kill myself but, but.
Speaker 1:But back to the idea of you know, if we, if we withdraw our appreciation, support and celebration for someone who has achieved a a great sort of weight loss stroke, physical well-being goal, and they have used diet, exercise and a weight loss drug at the same time, I think to rob them of that reinforces this notion that failure to keep your weight under control is fundamentally an individual personal failure and in a world where fast food, high-calorie food, high-sugar food is just so easy, I think it's fair enough that some people should be able to reach for something that quietens down the food noise that has been ramped up by the systematic elements in our environment and I think then now with the the food industry, I think the food industry is probably reeling, trying to work out what they're going to do now, because you know, if there's lots of anecdotal evidence I've been reading of people that would go, you know I'd go in and I'd order a Big Mac and I'd order a large fries.
Speaker 1:And now I go in and I can eat half the Big Mac and I won't finish the fries. Also, that the Big Mac, the taste of the processed food, doesn't have the same effect and it's to do that with, they think, the release of dopamine. It's less appealing to the brain's reward system, because it's all about the brain's reward system, right?
Speaker 2:if the fast food industry does see a drop in profit you know revenue and profit because of this, then I'm all for it, given that those sections of the food industry are actually not that interested in it. Well, okay.
Speaker 1:Well they are because, like Nestle, has started a line of frozen meals called Vital Pursuit, and it's directly targeting GLP-1 users with smaller portions. Classic right was what they should have done in the first place.
Speaker 2:Which is what they should have done in the first place.
Speaker 1:And it's conceptualizing and designing new products tailored for glp1 users, which include nourish, fit brownie bites enriched with whey protein for muscle maintenance during weight loss, smooth, sweet with cocoa echoes and designed to be self-limiting.
Speaker 2:Classic I mean every, every, every theory. All the bars today are advertising how much protein they've got in them the, the desserts that have protein, the yogurts that have protein. And so I guess that's the adjustment that they're making. I don't want to become a conspiracy theorist and be enormously suspicious of big food you should be suspicious of big food. Big food have been very bad.
Speaker 1:They're way more problematic than big pharma.
Speaker 2:Look through one lens. Big food has been feeding everybody, but it does depend upon their, I guess their motive. If their motive is to feed people and, you know, be the fresh food people and make sure that Australians. Hang on, hang on, hang on. We've got lots of weak big skids here. Where did you?
Speaker 1:How did we get onto the fresh food people we talking about? You know the big food companies that pump people full of high density, high calorific, high sugar, high fat foods, which has fueled the obesity crisis they're not trying to do the right thing, they're just trying to, they're trying to move product they're just trying to hook, hook into people's dopamine reward system.
Speaker 2:It's disgraceful they're trying to move product and so yeah you know the same tactics that are used by big tobacco, and so things have changed. You know, we've gone to vapes, we've gone to chewing gum, we've gone to other ways of delivering nicotine to people and helping them get off it. So and yes, of course now the big tobacco companies have adapted, and there are a whole lot of products that don't look like they are created by big tobacco.
Speaker 1:I actually think that they started making those stupid drinks? Yeah, they're making drinks.
Speaker 2:So, yes, those who are motivated only by the profit motive through their provision of food and drinks, well, you know, I think we should keep them. I think we should keep them adapting and moving. You know, if the population at large says we don't want to be tricked into eating food, that we don't need consuming calories that just make us feel worse, then yeah, bring the battle on.
Speaker 1:Well, bring it on. I mean, yeah, but the other element to this whole thing is supply, and you know there was a I don't know. Well, now they're still saying that the Therapeutic Goods Administration is advising that a Zempic supply will remain limited through 2025. So what we don't want is people with diabetes being robbed of their drug to manage their diabetes because we're giving it to all the people that want to be thin, right, yeah, that's right, and that is a real problem.
Speaker 2:I know that a couple of the medications that I've been on over the years. I've sometimes gone into the pharmacy expecting a prescription to be filled and they've just said, sorry, there's none here. The supply chain is not functioning as it should be. Gone into the pharmacy expecting a prescription to be filled and they've just said sorry there's none here, yeah, you know the supply chain is not functioning as it should be and there's a real shortage of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now, if you're carrying around a serious amount of weight or if your blood chemistry is putting you into a dangerous, you know, metabolic disease area or diabetes disease area, it does feel unfair that you know people who just want to lose the extra five or six kilos are plundering the supply chain, sure and and we do know that if you do take a weight loss drug, that your chances of having a, of having cardiovascular disease, of having certain cancers, of having neurological disorders is lowered.
Speaker 1:So it's very, very important that people can have access to these medications because, they're really, really good.
Speaker 1:So we've just got to. The problem is, as per, it's not a level playing field and if you just take the moral sort of pearl clutching element out of it, right, if you take that away. What we're looking at here is a drug which has many positive effects. It has long-term usage, is not for obesity. We haven't had enough time to test it so we don't know. But the big thing we're looking at it is not a level playing field. So you know it's good for hollywood, but maybe the mum out in the western suburbs of of liverpool but the mum out in the western suburbs that would dearly love to lose that 20 kilos maybe isn't going to be able to afford it and that's not good.
Speaker 2:I mean in Australia, with the pharmaceutical benefit scheme, there are discounts on hundreds and hundreds of lines of drugs that if you bought them from the manufacturer they would be prohibitive. But because there is a social health benefit, these drugs are subsidized.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, at the moment, they're not that these drugs aren't subsidized. If you just want to use it for weight loss, correct, they're quite expensive right, yes, yeah, yeah, but you know, for instance, I take an anti-migraine injection once a month yes um, that is subsidized.
Speaker 1:It's really really cheap, so, and I think it's quite recently been put onto the pbs. So who knows, I don't know, but I think I think, in terms of the fashion industry and I think in terms of the food industry, it's going to be very, very interesting over the next couple of years to watch how it adapts, because, um, I know for um big outfits like kmart, um target, etc. They have a very large portion of their fashion um, what plus size?
Speaker 1:plus plus size yeah so is that going to change when we know? Is the plus size part of the fashion market? Is that going to shrink? Is the plus size part of the fashion market? Is that going to shrink? What's going to happen? It's going to be very, very interesting, is it not?
Speaker 2:I mean, it really is the beginning of a whole new chapter of human existence where, for the first time, we have been liberated from food, noise, you sound like Oprah.
Speaker 1:She felt really liberated. Yeah, that's right. I'm thinking it was great, that's yeah, I mean, I think I think oprah winfrey was one of the the the the early adopters yeah uh, and the earlier champions of it, and she used the word freedom she, oh, but what's interesting about that is that she used to be the, the spokesperson for weight watchers, or j Craig or one of those. So it's interesting with Oprah because she was a prominent spokesperson for Weight Watchers right.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And she also partnered with Jenny Craig. Yeah, and they had the prepackaged meals. Right was Weight Watchers. You know they used to put you in a corner at Weight Watchers and they'd weigh you and if you weren't the right weight, they'd oink at you.
Speaker 2:That's a bit mean.
Speaker 1:Horrendous yeah. Humiliating people and shaming them is just going to make them go home and eat more.
Speaker 2:It's appalling yeah yeah, and so there again is that human bias. You know the pack mentality of if someone is the wrong shape, then there's something wrong with them, and they, they winked at them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they'd wink at you, isn't it just terrible? Um, they got that and then the person would feel shockingly humiliated. But listen to this jenny craig and I remember they used to have all those advertisements of people that often have like white outfits on and they'd be running across the beach and then they'd go home and they'd unpack some little meal. They'd pull back the top.
Speaker 2:Jenny Craig was huge.
Speaker 1:And then they'd put their fork in and it would be all fresh salad and then they'd have a glass of sparkling water and smile up at their adoring husband. There was all that marketing that went on. Anyway, they filed for bankruptcy. Um yeah, in 2023 jenny craig's no more jenny craig, partially due to the change changing landscape of weight management and competition from weight loss drugs so it's really going to change everything and I think our point is let's apply some critical thinking to this.
Speaker 1:Let's withdraw from the tribal mechanisms in our brains where we just want to judge everything from some sort of discussed moral standpoint. Just be aware that once you do, if you do take it, you have to keep taking it, unless you can pull some miracle out of the you know diet hat and completely change your eating. But you're probably on it for life. And if we apply critical thinking to that, we can then say well, there's plenty of drugs that people are on for life when they're trying to um, you know they're trying to keep themselves, but they're trying to when they're trying to reduce their vulnerability to some of those lifestyle diseases. So, um, there's upsides and downsides to it, um, but it is definitely going to change the landscape under which we operate. So it's watch this space.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and I guess your primary message is that it's okay to talk about it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we must. It's okay to be curious.
Speaker 2:You know it's not a failure to explore whether this might be the right solution for you.
Speaker 1:Absolutely not a failure and we should be discussing it more. Absolutely not a failure, and we should be discussing it more. And yeah, this is why I decided today because there is so much discussion swirling around me at the moment with my friends on who's on it, who's not on it, what they look like, if they should be taking it, if they shouldn't, I thought, well, let's dive in and have a little chat, and we have I've got the title for a new little self-help book for you. What is it? Well?
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, apologies to Mel Robbins and Let them Let Yourself.
Speaker 1:I think that's an extension of Let them don't you Is it.
Speaker 2:I don't know, maybe I should read the book.
Speaker 1:Stop talking about books you haven't read. Let Yourself. I've read about trip yourself I've had read about five million books over my life oh, you're not going to tell this story, I am anyway, okay, if I can, and um, and then I read it and then it's gone and disappeared the details of it excuse me, have disappeared from my brain.
Speaker 1:And then someone would go have you read da da, da, da, da da, and then I'll go, um, yes, and then I'll go, yes, and then they'll go, what's it about? And I'll go, I don't know, but I really liked it. Anyway, david, who's read not so well a few books remembers every detail.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I actually remember the detail of the books that you've read because you talk about it. You know, like I'm reading this book at the moment, you know blah-de-blah-de-bl, bloody, bloody, blah, um, and, and I and I sort of hear that. So, yes, in the conversation, you know, you'll be asked what was it about? And you go I can't remember, but I do, I can, I can.
Speaker 1:Then tell them you can remember, and it really irritates you, it really irritates me, so I'll just, if anybody's interested, I'll just tell you all what I'm currently, the author that I'm obsessed with at the moment.
Speaker 2:Probably Irish.
Speaker 1:I'm obsessed with Irish authors and I'm currently reading anything by John Banville and I have just read April in Spain and honestly, he's the best, he's really good. So that's my little take. So that's it from us today.
Speaker 2:Look, I was just going to say on the books, annie's considering doing a why Smart Women book club for the listeners to the podcast. If you're interested in joining a little group where we do get some why Smart Women critical thinking book club reading and discussion, yeah, just let us know. And if there are enough people who are interested in, joining that book club.
Speaker 1:I would love to have a book club. I love talking books pretty much more.
Speaker 2:If you're interested in joining a book club with Annie, give us a DM and we'll start to put the pieces in place to make that work.
Speaker 1:Righty-ho. So that's it from us here on the northern beaches of sydney. Stay safe, have a lovely afternoon and thanks for listening. Bye, thanks for tuning into why smart women with me, annie mccubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day.
Speaker 1:Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women? See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
