Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
The Great Fob Fiasco: Tales from the Marriage Frontlines
A missing car fob, a dentist appointment, and a blocked car park entrance become the perfect storm for examining how our brains process blame and responsibility in relationships.
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And I said you listen to me, this is not my fault, so don't take any of this out on me. I am the one trying to solve a problem I did not create, so back off with the tone, and he did, because that's what I'm like. You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. Today is Monday, the 14th of July. I am broadcasting from the Northern beaches in Sydney, new South Wales, australia. It is a stunning, sunny, beautiful day, although cold, and if anybody goes, if anybody lives through a European winter, you should pop over here in the winter, because we're extremely lucky. I haven't been, but people are still swimming in the middle of winter, aren't they, david? They?
Speaker 1:are indeed, yes, I still have. You can hear in my voice. I'm still getting over an illness which has given me laryngitis, but I'm going to push on regardless. So here we are. Good morning David.
Speaker 2:Good morning. This may be the last time I appear on the why Smart Women podcast. We had a bit of a chat about what we're going to talk about today and, yes, it's highly likely that Annie will be so pissed off with me at the end of this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's possibly correct, but then let's see how we go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who knows, we can be optimistic.
Speaker 1:Okay, so I'm just going to tell a little story about what happened to me last Friday and just listeners, just to understand that this story as an isolated incident would mean one thing, but set against a backdrop of a thousand incidents where someone in the family hasn't been able to find something, I think it gives it a different tone, a different sort of yeah.
Speaker 2:And so this is a story about you.
Speaker 1:No, this is a story about, excuse me, what do you mean?
Speaker 2:Well, that's what you just said.
Speaker 1:I'm about to tell you my story.
Speaker 2:I'm going to tell you a story about something that happened to me the other day.
Speaker 1:It did happen to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, that's right, so you're at the center of this story.
Speaker 1:I'm the center of this story. I'm the center of the story, but tell the story. No, that's good around. The story is the fact that it has been a don't throw a mandarin, peel on the floor. What are you doing? Every week there's some issue with the mandarin. Can't just peel a mandarin and put it on the carpet.
Speaker 2:It's disgusting I'll pick it up. I'll pick it up. Thank, thank you Anyway.
Speaker 1:so this particular incident is redolent of about 500 incidents that have happened to me, say, in the past 20, 30 years.
Speaker 2:Would you like a piece of mandarin?
Speaker 1:No, I don't Thank you.
Speaker 2:So that's 500 in the last 20 or 30 years, I don't know, I'm not counting, it's a fairly extended period of time there.
Speaker 1:Okay, did I say 500 years no.
Speaker 2:No, no, you said it's happened 500 times.
Speaker 1:It's happened many times 500 times 25 years. Okay, let's not worry about the maths.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:So I am.
Speaker 2:Details are not important.
Speaker 1:Yes, they are important, they're very important. So I've, as you can hear, I've been sick and but I've been getting over it anyway. Last Friday I ventured back to the gym and I was driving home from the gym For anybody who lives in the northern beaches you will recognize I was driving down Warringah Road, which is a major highway towards DY, where we now reside, and the phone rings, ring, ring, ring, ring. It's my son. Now, just to keep um, um, just to give it some context um, my son is 31 and he's a lawyer, so he's not like um, you know he's he, you know he's not an um, a person that has no capability, he's a, he's a capable human. Anyway, he rings me mom. Yes, darling, oh, I have to beat the dentist. I've got to beat the dentist in 15 minutes.
Speaker 1:He was staying with us at the time in order to go to the dentist. So he was staying with us in our flat, because our flat, our apartment, is near the dentist and he lives far away from the dentist. So he'd come to stay with us so he could have some proximity to the dentist. So he's in our apartment and okay. So, um, I have to get the dentist and dad can't find his keys. So I can't get out of the the the car park now to exit the car park underneath our apartment. Um, we have a fob. So and what you do is you know, whatever, you've been there for two days you get to the gate, you ding the fob and it you don't have to pay the fee. So he says dad can't find his keys, he can't find the fob, and I'll have to pay 24 to get out. And now I have to be there in like 12 minutes anyway.
Speaker 1:So I went because it is my want, and I think it is the want of most females, that we immediately move into problem solving mode. So I went all right, are you sure dad can't find his keys? Yes, he's looked, he can't find it. I said okay, I'm on Moringa Road. I'm not far, I reckon I'm about five minutes away. So I gun it down Rohingya Road. And he said I'm going to stay on the phone. It was like some sort of I don't know spy operation at this point. He's going to stay on the phone, we're going to stay in contact. So I said to him right, so this is what's going to happen. I'm going to go down the driveway, oak Avenue, you're going to be down there, I'll pull in, I'll hand you the fob and then you can leave. He says okay, so he stays on the phone. We're in the middle of this sort of spy operation.
Speaker 1:So I drive in and it's quite a long driveway down and I get down to the bottom and the arm of the gate goes up and I just drive through it. So I'm just past the the gate arm and he's already waiting at the exit to go up the drive, to go up the driveway. So I look up the driveway and realize that the gate with the fob is at the top of the driveway and he's looking very stressed. So I'm like I look up there and I go. Well, I'd have to run up and then hit the fob so the gate opens so he can exit. Why don't I just give him the key, the fob? Right, I'll just give him the fob and then he can go. So I leap out of my car, which is just past the gate, and I hand him the fob and I say go and he goes, thanks, and he hangs up the phone because we've been on the call the whole time and he zooms off.
Speaker 1:I get back in the car and realize my car key is on the fob and I can't move the car. So I get back in my car. I try to move it. It's this new electric car, right? I try to move it anyway. I put it into drive and the thing goes. It won't go. So I try and ring Lachlan. He doesn't pick up.
Speaker 1:And at this point two cars have come down and they can't get through. They can't get through the gate. So my stress levels start to build. So so I try him again. I said lock on quickly, you have to come back. I can't start my car, you've got my car key. And he goes I have to go to the dentist, I'm going to be late and I go. You have to come back because I can't move my car and people are now my car and people are now um queuing up to get through the gate and they can't get through. So then he goes oh my god, okay.
Speaker 1:So then I'd leave the phone on the seat and I run up the driveway to go out onto the street to see if I can see him so I can grab my car key. And as I'm running up, of course people are tooting and every driver that I go past I go. I'm so sorry. My car, I've stalled my car. Now it's an electric car. I don't think you can stall an electric car, but it's the best I could do. Anyway, people weren't very happy.
Speaker 1:So get up onto Oaks Avenue. He's not there. I'm like, oh my God, where is he? I should have bought the phone. I'm sick at this time, still sick.
Speaker 1:I run back down the driveway and get to my car, apologizing to everybody as I go, and then I ring him and he goes.
Speaker 1:I've been trying to ring you, I'm coming back. I'm coming back, but I'm going to be really late for the dentist, and this is bad. And I said you listen to me, this is not my fault, so don't take any of this out on me. I am the one trying to solve a problem I did not create. So back off with the tone, and he did because that's what I'm like, anyway.
Speaker 1:So then he arrives back and I run up and I grab the key and I run back down and I move the car and then people can get through the gate and I go and I drive and I park, at which point my stress levels because holding, I mean, I don't know, somebody would maybe needed to park their car to go to the doctor, I don't know. It was a very bad situation. And then a nice man came up and put his head in and said are you all right? He said I'm really sorry, I tutored you. I said no, no, I'm fine. And I told him the entire story, the whole story, that poor man at the door of my car. I said this is what happened. My husband couldn't find the key and then my son didn't want to pay the $24.
Speaker 2:So yeah, you've just told us the story, all right, yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm doing a rip, you don't get to interfere, okay look, I've been pretty quiet for quite some time so that's what happened. Yeah, that's what happened, and then that's what happened. And then oh, no, no, no, no. Then I go upstairs and I say to David and he bursts into the room. I did not burst into the room. That is not an accurate characterization. Okay, okay, he entered the room and I said well, I've had a terrific 15 minutes.
Speaker 2:And you said to me look, he could have just paid the 24 dollars he should have.
Speaker 1:I don't know why. I think it was only 12, it was 24. Okay, you said he. He asks me late for the key. He could have paid the money. No matter what you say, I'm I couldn't feel any worse anyway, so there's not much point talking about it. And I, oh, there is point talking about it because I'm now going to describe to you what happened. And then we talked about it. Yeah, we did. Do go on about the paper that you've handed me with the assessments of the dramas that apparently I have contributed to by having attribution bias.
Speaker 2:This is really interesting.
Speaker 1:Do mansplain to me how it's my fault.
Speaker 2:Now hang on a minute. Hang on a minute. Hang on, okay, mansplaining, I get it. I get it. I get it. I know it happens, I know I can do it, I know I could probably do it, for I could represent the country in mansplaining if it was absolutely necessary.
Speaker 1:But then yes, where's the learning?
Speaker 2:This is the learning. I've got the learning.
Speaker 1:Yes, do go on with the learning.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, all right. So with a situation like that, what I thought would be helpful would be to actually kind of deconstruct the various moments in it and, in the spirit of the why Smart Women podcast and all of your books, to discuss some of the cognitive errors that who made and that were made by all the players in this particular little drama.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see, I'll tell you the cognitive error I made. I'll tell you the cognitive. The one I made is why am I involving myself in an issue that has got nothing to do with me, that is between David and Lachlan, and I have repeatedly done it over my entire married life.
Speaker 2:It wasn't between David and Lachlan at that particular point. By the time that you were involved, the drama between David and Lachlan was over.
Speaker 1:Oh was it? Yeah, not. According to Lachlan, it wasn't. Well, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:So, lachlan, yes, decided that he was going to call you. I remember being offended with the accusatory tone of dad can't find his fob. Well, that's correct, correct though isn't it Like that's my one job in the world?
Speaker 1:No, it is just a job.
Speaker 2:It's my one job to know where the fob is, so that when our grown up son gets out of bed and sets off for the dentist, I'm there like St Peter at the gate.
Speaker 1:David, St Peter at the gate is to do with letting someone into heaven. It is not to do with being able to track one key and put it back in the same spot.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, all right, all right. So what I thought might be useful would be to identify some of the cognitive errors and logical fallacies that contributed to the drama. And the first one and look, I'll own this one entirely.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Hindsight bias right Hindsight bias. When I heard your story, I must confess, the first thought that I had was listen. If you'd only called me, I would have brought down the fob for the car.
Speaker 1:Called you when.
Speaker 2:Well, in one of your many calls to Lachlan.
Speaker 1:How do I know At that point? Stop, stop, stop. You're storytelling with the other people in the car park. No, no, no, david, you've got to remember it's extremely pressurised. Lachlan had told me you couldn't find your keys. That's exactly right why would I think you knew where the fob was.
Speaker 2:What the fob for the car.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:I have a key to the car as well, so, look, I'm saying this in Carefully. This following soundbite is in inverted commas. Right, do go on, because, look, so this was the thought process Actually explain hindsight, hindsight, bias hindsight bias. It's a very easy thing to do when you're in these kinds of situations. You know, if only you'd done this then that would have happened. Right, yeah, if, like like you with me, if, if, if only I had been keeping track of that fob, then it wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 1:Like saint peter at the gates, yeah, like saint peter at the gates of heaven, yeah. Like St Peter at the gates, right.
Speaker 2:If St Peter had been in charge of his keys and his key chain?
Speaker 1:More people would have gotten heaven.
Speaker 2:Then it wouldn't have happened, right. So that's a very easy thought for you and probably you know the kernel, you know the core of your feeling about this whole chapter in our life was that if only David had done X, then this wouldn't have happened.
Speaker 2:And what? Let me finish the explanation so we can actually agree on what we're talking about. This is hindsight bias. It's easy to say if you'd only done this, then that wouldn't have happened. It's easy to say that after the fact. But at the time no one had all the information that was pertinent. So when I said to Lachlan right, you know, just pay the $24. I can't find the fob for you because you know you're in a panic and my mind is on the 12 other things that I'm thinking about in this particular moment, you didn't know that I'd already had the conversation with Lachlan and I said it's up to you to solve this for yourself, right? So then you'd go. Well, if only David had found the fob, then it wouldn't have happened. But the fact is, david didn't find the fob and David had already solved it and it didn't involve you in any way. Okay, just around the finding of the fob, and David had already solved it and it didn't involve you in any way.
Speaker 1:Okay, just just around the finding of the fob. So it things must if we're going to discuss something yeah it has to be discussed in the correct context. Yeah, you can't just take out a small tendril of it and hold that up Contextually. This happens all the time. There's history here. It's not an anomaly. The not being able to find a key is not an anomaly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And so, therefore, the notion that you can just have a discreet little conversation with Lachlan, right, and then he'll just go oh okay, I'll just go and, you know, pay the $24 is unlikely, because, historically, this is the wash, because, historically, this is the sea that we swim about, in which is sort of chaos and disorganisation.
Speaker 2:I think that that's a bit of hyperbole. It's not chaos and disorganisation all the time, otherwise we wouldn't be able to function.
Speaker 1:No, but enough.
Speaker 2:I accept that the location of items like this is a bit of an issue and we do lose things, but somehow.
Speaker 1:No, I don't, I've lost one thing. I don't lose things. That's not true.
Speaker 2:And I haven't even lost the fob.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God, david, you couldn't find it at the time when you needed it.
Speaker 2:No, because I was working, my mind was somewhere else, and with absolutely no time at all. He's saying I want you to produce an object.
Speaker 1:It's the inception of the issue. It's being able to put something back in the same spot. Okay, so the edge that we're playing More of me, my fault, no, didn't I say to. Okay, let's just that we're playing More of me, my fault, no.
Speaker 2:Didn't I say Okay, let's just go back to hindsight bias. Right, my hindsight bias is that if only Annie had known that I was upstairs with the key to the car, she could have called me and that would have fixed the problem. But it's easy to say after the fact, Annie didn't have all the information in the moment. I mean, the other thing was that Annie was unwell, so you know, because she no wonder I'm unwell yeah.
Speaker 2:No, you were unwell before this happened. Yes, it's true. And am I attributing your unwellness to anything that you are responsible for?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:I don't do that.
Speaker 1:Oh, so I'm just attributing blame where it doesn't belong.
Speaker 2:You are blaming me for something that Lachlan did. Lachlan involved you in that drama.
Speaker 1:But the inception of it is on your lap.
Speaker 2:No, see, this is the thing. Can I be expected? See, this is the male brain that just loves compartmentalizing. Okay, instead of looking at compartmentalizing, Okay, instead of looking at the entire picture. Okay.
Speaker 1:Your master's at it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so to be precise about what it is that I'm doing, I would describe this as moral reasoning.
Speaker 1:Okay, go on.
Speaker 2:Okay, Moral reasoning I didn't create the situation right. It was Lachlan who created the situation by asking for a key at the very last moment, when I was clearly at work. Okay, so I, my principle, is that you know we have to have boundaries, that if he wants to be supported in that way, then he should. You know, he should let us know beforehand. We can't, we can't, you know, materialize his immediate wants and needs without any warning. So my moral reasoning was that and again, I accept that this could be a cognitive error on my behalf, but what I thought I was doing is, quite simply, cleanly sticking to my guns with Lachlan around planning his exit from the house if he's going to rely on me to do something for him. So that's what I thought I was doing at the time.
Speaker 1:I think that is a massive post-rationalisation. So we make, just to explain. So you've explained moral licensing, moral reasoning yeah, I was upholding a principle. Oh were you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm not going to solve every problem that our so I end up solving it. Well, that's up to you. When he rang you, you could have just said Lachlan, pay the $24.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that is true, and I did question afterwards why. Why do I keep problem-solving issues that are not of my own creation?
Speaker 2:Look, and I want to commend you for asking that question.
Speaker 1:Don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't. You dare, don't you praise me for that. I'll have you.
Speaker 2:Annie is so pointing a finger at me at the moment. I was just going to say that it is admirable that you've come to that conclusion yourself.
Speaker 1:Oh, thank you.
Speaker 2:Because you know that there is no way that I could actually suggest that to you.
Speaker 1:No, that's true. So next time you can't find something which will be soon, because of your brilliant brain also can't find things. So you think, Next time you say to me, where's my keys, wallet, phone, whatever bag, do you know what I'm going to say, what I don't know?
Speaker 2:Find by me, Is it yeah?
Speaker 1:it is. And then when you have to get to an appointment and you're running late and you can't find it, okay, okay okay, look it's super, it it super is.
Speaker 2:see, threading the needle with you is almost impossible, because there are times, there are times when I will, I will spend 20 minutes looking for something, um, because I don't want to ask you, oh, have you seen such and such? Yeah, and then when I finally pluck up the courage to meekly inquire, you know you wouldn't have. And you go, oh, yes, I've put that away in this drawer. And I go, oh, okay, and you say, well, you could have asked me.
Speaker 1:And I go I don't say anything at that time because I just take the thing and go, and also we should, in all fairness there are a number of contexts where like when I'm sick and stuff when you're magnificent- yes, don't go there.
Speaker 2:Why? Because it's unnecessary. It's not unnecessary. I don't feel the need to be forgiven for my failures of organization, um, by compensating for it in other ways. It's just like if you, if I, if I was to say to you you know, um, do you know where the um? You know, do you know where the shopping trolley is? And you go, I don't know, then that's fine. Then I know that I'm looking for it. You know, have you seen my phone? No, I haven't right, that's fine. Then I know that I'm looking for it. You know, have you seen my phone? No, I haven't Right. That's what I would prefer rather than what. You've lost your phone again.
Speaker 1:I don't always say that that is confirmation bias. I know you don't always say I don't.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:But that's what.
Speaker 2:I'm frightened of you saying so, generally speaking.
Speaker 1:I frightened of you saying so. Generally speaking, I am quite scared.
Speaker 2:I don't ask no um responsibility diffusion. What's that okay? So when you've got a situation like this, what?
Speaker 1:are these? Are these cognitive errors or are these? Um? What are these?
Speaker 2:well, these are biases and fallacies that are in play, that that that that stoke the flames of that. You know the drama that we had on that particular morning I mean when, when we share a problem but you don't have a clear leader, when you don't have somebody who knows all the information and who can make the call you know, I thought well, you know, you and Lachlan will sort it out.
Speaker 2:You had the expectation that Lachlan and I would sort it out. Neither of us had all the information so neither of us could solve it for everybody. You know there is the old, you know, primary attribution error.
Speaker 1:So attribution is if something happens with me, right, let's say I make a mistake, it's because I'm under stress, there was pressure on me, I was tired, or whatever. I'm under stress, there was pressure on me, I was tired, or whatever. So if I make a mistake, then I understand the context under which I'm operating and I'm forgiving of myself. Fundamental attribution, error is if you make a mistake, right, then I don't give you the same level of forgiveness because I can't see inside your life at that moment and understand what's motivating you. So when you make a mistake this is just generic. I'm not saying you, when you make a mistake, you're selfish, careless, whatever. If I make a mistake, I'm under pressure.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:We're more forgiving of ourselves.
Speaker 2:And what you're describing is primary attribution, error right Same thing as fundamental attribution error same thing as fundamental attribution error. It's the same well, okay, well, in in this instance. Yeah, um, fundamentally, you were the cause of the drama in my mind me yeah, fundamentally you're the cause of the drama because you didn't hold a boundary with Lachlan in your mind. I I'm fundamentally responsible for the drama because I'm so careless. I don't keep track of objects like a fob so that Lachlan can get out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I still think I'm right, and you will, and you will, because that's the bias and I will think that I'm right.
Speaker 1:You can't think you're right.
Speaker 2:Okay so.
Speaker 1:A, you cannot think you're right. A so A, you cannot think you're right.
Speaker 2:A, it's the bias right. So again, fundamentally, I believe that I wasn't the cause of your drama.
Speaker 1:It wasn't my drama.
Speaker 2:It became your drama. You took that drama.
Speaker 1:Because I'm nice and I'm a problem solver and I'm female.
Speaker 2:Because you identify with being the problem solver and I'm female because you identify with being the problem solver. No, oh my god, yeah, you're given the opportunity. You know, hey, mom, will you solve this problem for me? You know, you know, don't stand in, don't stand between you. Know any um and a? Um, one of her offspring who has a problem that needs to be solved. You will take it on. You'll love that. You know what you're doing with the next 15 minutes of your life.
Speaker 1:Oh, hang on. No, that was a dangerous veer. Oh what. I was sick and didn't want to get home and just recover and have a cup of tea. I wanted to run around in the car park like a lunatic.
Speaker 2:If you get to be mummy sa, then then yes, you will. You will even if you're sick, even if, even if you're so you think it's an identity thing? Um, you're asking me honestly, sure, yeah, um, I, I, I think, I think it is an identity thing with you where you yes, you want to be known as the mother who will take on the problems of the children. That's really important to you, and and and that's good well, it's gone quite well for them it has gone extremely well for children are pretty functional exactly and and and at the same time
Speaker 2:you can get to a moment where you know your, your son, is demanding things of you that aren't your problem and you could say, no, solve it your own way.
Speaker 1:Son, you know you're a lawyer, you can afford it it'll remind you to get yourself organized in future see this whole thing, this entire conversation, right, this whole thing. So you just said then right, that's what you just said. You just said then right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's what you just said.
Speaker 1:You just said so if I didn't problem solve, right, uh-huh.
Speaker 2:In that moment, in that moment, no, no, no, no, no. That wasn't problem solving, that was agreeing to solve the problem. That's two different things. Problem solving is one thing.
Speaker 1:But in that moment you agreed to solve a problem that was always going to be a dramatic one. Oh, so now you've got some sort of crystal ball and you knew how it was going to turn out, do you Anyway?
Speaker 2:No, I don't, no, I don't, that's my very point.
Speaker 1:Okay, so here's the thing you just said. If I had right, resiled from it and not agreed to intervene, then Lachlan might learn right to say something earlier, to live a more organized life.
Speaker 2:Possibly.
Speaker 1:Possibly. Yeah Right, so nothing ever happens? Has the notion with you of locating things, let's just say with your ADHD brain? Do you think it's still ongoing?
Speaker 2:Of course I do.
Speaker 1:So in some degree could it be because you never feel the full emotional impact of what's gone on, because you post-rationalize and produce bits of paper that go it actually wasn't you.
Speaker 2:Hang on. The bit of paper was produced for the podcast.
Speaker 1:Right, I'm just saying, if you never get to actually feel the fact that actually you did have something to do with that, right, if you get to then intellectualise afterwards.
Speaker 2:Are you seriously positing that I do not feel the emotional cost of? You know failures, you know from my buggy brain. Are you suggesting that?
Speaker 1:I don't know, tell me, go on.
Speaker 2:Oh, come on. This will be my last appearance on this podcast.
Speaker 1:Go on, tell me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what are you talking about? It's the worst part of my self-critical internal thought processes.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:You know it's constant, okay, and ever since I first let somebody down, um, because I was, you know, disorganized or couldn't find something, um, yeah, uh, and, and, and it is relentless. And so, yeah, look, I probably have built up, uh, ways of of moderating the emotional cost of of continually disappointing, and I can tell you that there are times now when I go. Was that entirely my responsibility? Well, no, in this instance it wasn't my responsibility. And yes, I know you're not going to like it, and yes, I know that I'm speaking out of my own biases, but yeah, this is what my mind does and I'm going to let it do it.
Speaker 2:I don't think that if I had the opportunity to play that morning over again, I would have been much more aware of the fact that Lachlan needed the fob on his way out. I probably will be next time. And, yes, that is the role of having an emotional response to disappointing people. That's how you do start to take these things more seriously. You know they are elevated as priorities in your mind so that you do attend to these things and you don't make the same mistakes again. So, yes, there is an emotional cost. I've decided that I'm not going to be at the mercy of that emotional cost without questioning for the rest of my life. So yeah, you know, maybe I do push back a little bit from time to time.
Speaker 1:OK, so fair enough. That's interesting. So we're just pausing for a minute to hear a word from our sponsor.
Speaker 2:The why Smart Women podcast is brought to you by Koo, a boutique training, coaching and media production company. A coup spelt C-O-U-P, is a decisive act of leadership, and decisive leadership requires critical thinking. So well done you for investing time to think about your thinking, if your leadership or relationships would benefit from some grounded and creative support. If you want team training or a conference presentation, reach out for a confidential one-on-one conversation using the link in the description or go to coupco.
Speaker 1:Okay, so let's look at the conflict dynamics of why it turns so dramatic.
Speaker 2:Yeah oh well, I mean. I mean we've kind of got that. You know, we have had different pictures in our head.
Speaker 1:We're making, you know, we're doing the um, we're doing the hindsight listen confirmation bias yep so confirmation bias is where we just selectively notice, interpret and remember information that supports our existing beliefs. So we cherry pick the environment and we only notice things that we think that agree with belief systems that we already hold.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's disorganized. He makes my life hell. She creates drama by taking on things oh far out. Oh, hang on a minute. See, that's disorganised he makes my life hell.
Speaker 1:She creates drama by taking on things oh far out, oh, hang on a minute. See, that's so you interrupted me.
Speaker 2:You did not interrupt my explanation of my heuristics, but when I suggest to you what yours could be in an emblematic way.
Speaker 1:No, because, as I have repeatedly said to you, the word drama is gendered, it is attributed to, women, not in my mind. Well, your mind is part of the hive.
Speaker 2:Your mind is gendered.
Speaker 1:You are part of the male hive mind who attribute women to being overly emotional and creating drama. Right, anyway, let's keep going. We've done fundamental attribution negativity bias oh, what's that doing in here? What's negativity bias doing in here? We give more weight to negative events than positive oh, hang on, you're on the wrong page.
Speaker 2:What? Yeah, no, that, that was that. That. That doesn't necessarily relate to the drama that we were talking about earlier on.
Speaker 1:Oh.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:It's interesting though, the negativity bias. It's an interesting thing to touch on just sort of generically, because, amid all the positive thinking that we're endlessly told, you know that we should be engaged in the negativity bias. We are biased to look at the negative because it's it's safer yeah so you know, negativity, positivity, looking at something positive doesn't actually doesn't prepare you for a negative event in the future. So our brains are naturally evolved to look for the negative.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:Which is why endless, relentless, you know, encouragement to be positive is just annoying and counterproductive.
Speaker 2:So, look, I mean, I think I mean, given where we are up to in the conversation, I think we should talk about, you know, what are the things that actually helped to resolve the drama so that we did have a nice weekend after all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we did.
Speaker 2:And how we go about, you know, resolving these dramas in the future, and I mean the first thing to do is to acknowledge the other person's position, without necessarily agreeing with it. So you know, I should be saying to Annie you know what a nightmare morning, you know how disappointing for you. Yes, I've done it again. It must be very frustrating for you. Um, you know, I'm so sorry. You know, here's my new system for keeping the keys under control. So, um, I can, I can, I can, I can acknowledge your perspective and your position, but I don't think that you should make me agree with it. You know, uh-huh, I don't mean I shouldn't have to agree with you know, your perspective, that I didn't care enough about you.
Speaker 1:I don't think it's that you don't care enough. I have never thought that You're an extremely caring person.
Speaker 2:But then why would I have been so careless as to not keep control of that object in that morning?
Speaker 1:I think that the notion of just keeping track of your things, it probably is very, very difficult for you to prioritize, and so it just doesn't happen.
Speaker 2:Well, it depends on that, depends on the other things that I'm carrying on in my mind at the time.
Speaker 1:Anyway, let's not go back over that all over again. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So. But this is the thing you have to be able to acknowledge the other person's position without actually agreeing with it. So that's the first thing. You can try to reconstruct the sequence without judgment. So let's imagine we look at the play and we go okay. So there was this moment when I was working on X, y and Z and Lachlan walks into the room and says where's the fob? And it took me a while to actually track back. You know where it might be it was on the bed.
Speaker 1:I found it.
Speaker 2:Exactly, it was on the bed. So you know, if we had been calm, if it hadn't been, you know, if Lachlan hadn't been highly dramatic about having to get to the dentist, then maybe we would have found it at the time. So this is the process of reconstructing the sequence without judgment, and in fact you've kind of got to do it slowly, because if you do it quickly then you'll skip over the things that don't match your emotional biases. The point of reviewing the scenario as if it was a play is to get some objectivity around it. Yes, we can learn on a shared lesson or a strategy for next time. So next time Lachlan comes, we can say to him plan your exit.
Speaker 2:If you want us to use the fob, maybe we get another fob made, maybe we get another fob made and we just have that on a key next to the door. So that gives us a sense that we're moving into a future where the unfortunate I'm not going to use the word drama, please don't the unfortunate sequence of events is unlikely to be repeated, and I think the thing that is really clear to me is that we do have to recognize the emotional load. So, look, you know, from my perspective, I think I was irritated by being interrupted by Lachlan because I was, you know, deep in thought, and so that emotional irritation made it more difficult for me to find my fob. You were ill, do go on.
Speaker 2:I was going to say. You know you were ill and maybe that was putting pressure on your thinking, and so the obvious thing that you could have done, which was to call me, was not.
Speaker 1:Oh, we're back on. I could have called you. You couldn't find your keys. What is wrong with you?
Speaker 2:Why would.
Speaker 1:I think you're going to be able to solve the problem. You couldn't find your keys. I don't know that the fob is separate from the car keys.
Speaker 2:And there you have the emotional load. Just speaking of emotional load, em Just speaking of emotional load.
Speaker 1:Emotional load. No, no, no, no, I'm about to talk about emotional load.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And that it is well recognized, yes, that women, okay, carry is well recognized, that women carry much more of the emotional and problem-solving role of the family.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:It is well recognized this is not just me with my identity as a problem solver.
Speaker 2:I recognize it.
Speaker 1:Women carry the context of the entire families in their head the whole time, and it's just that we are different. It is different. Having children has been a different experience for me. As for you, I carry much more of the cognitive and emotional load, and that's the truth of it.
Speaker 2:That is the truth of it, and so that's why I'm saying that when you're in a conversation like this and you don't want it to escalate, that you need to recognise the emotional load, who carries it and what impact that emotional load has on the decisions that people are making at the time.
Speaker 1:Terrific. Okay, well, that was my Friday, so good to chat, david.
Speaker 2:Thank you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for being good-natured.
Speaker 2:Thank you for being funny. Thank you for being good-natured, thank you for being funny, thank you for being entertaining and thank you for caring so much about our family.
Speaker 1:Hilarious. Thank you for being funny. Oh my God. Okay, so that's our story. I hope that was instructive. I hope there were elements of that scenario that resonated with all the women out there that are listening to the podcast and maybe the men. And yeah, I hope you learned something from our dissemination of what happened and the deconstruction of the drama.
Speaker 2:What did you learn, Annie Shut up.
Speaker 1:Oh, my God.
Speaker 2:I'm curious. I'm not going to talk to you about what I learnt. I've learnt a lot.
Speaker 1:You should go and be a spiritual guru. You should be sitting somewhere with a one-shouldered toga.
Speaker 2:No, are you kidding On a?
Speaker 1:mountain with your fingers in the lotus position, with your middle finger pressed against your thumb.
Speaker 2:Annie, there's a lesson to be learned here. I just want to hear you articulate it. You did earlier in the session.
Speaker 1:You should be on a mountain.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's not about me.
Speaker 1:Disseminating information Wisdom.
Speaker 2:What's the better decision that you'll make next time?
Speaker 1:You should be disseminating wisdom to your female acolytes.
Speaker 2:Namaste Annie.
Speaker 1:Who would sit and listen to you dropping pearls of wisdom. Anyway, thank you so much. Smart women, I hope, wherever you are in the world, you are having an awesome day. Thanks very much for listening. Tune in next week. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin.
Speaker 1:I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny.
Speaker 1:This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
