There’s a villain in all of us!

Ever wondered why the villains in Shakespearean drama captivate us so deeply? In this fascinating exploration of character and identity, Annie McCubbin and her guest David draw compelling connections between classical acting techniques and everyday decision-making.

Transcript

Shakespeare's Richard III Opening

Speaker 1 0:00

Was there ever a woman in this humour Wood? Was there ever a woman in this humour One? I'll have her, but I will not keep her long.

Speaker 2 0:11

You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. I thought that we'd start by talking about the production of Richard III that you and I did right back at the beginning.

Speaker 1 1:18

Yeah, Okay, yeah, we actually left for the rehearsal the day after our engagement party, did we? Yeah, yeah, that's right.

Speaker 2 1:32

That's interesting. That's very, very interesting, interesting piece of detail.

Speaker 1 1:35

But yes, our relationship was fresh.

Speaker 2 1:37

I wore a really nice dress to that. You did, I did you did.

Speaker 1 1:41

It was a short blue kind of silky thing.

Speaker 2 1:45

I was in the age where I could get away with that.

Speaker 1 1:47

No, you could still do it now, darling. I couldn't, David.

Speaker 2 1:49

Yes, you could I couldn't Anyway, so just Richard III. You played Richard III, yes.

Speaker 1 1:56

Yeah.

Speaker 2 1:56

And Richard III for anybody who's unfamiliar with Shakespeare is a pretty wicked character right, oh, yes. How does it start? What's the opening monologue of Richard III?

Speaker 1 2:08

Oh well, it's one of the most famous ones and probably one of the most misunderstood. People go, now is the winter of our discontent and they think that that's the line, but it's not. He's actually talking about what has happened in England. Now that there is peace, now is the winter of our discontent, made glorious summer by this sun of York and all the clouds that lowered upon our house in the deep bosom of the ocean. Buried Now are our brows bound with victorious wreaths, our bruised arms hung up for monuments. Our stern alarms changed to merry meetings. Grim-visaged war hath smoothed his wrinkled front and now, instead of mounting barbed steeds To fright the souls of fearful adversaries, he capers nimbly in a lady's chamber To the lascivious pleasings of a lute Beautiful.

Speaker 2 3:09

So what does that mean?

Speaker 1 3:10

What does that mean? It's an awesome opening monologue, isn't it?

Speaker 2 3:13

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 3:13

Now it's awesome he's letting the audience know what has happened.

Speaker 2 3:17

And what has happened? Okay, he doesn't like peace, does he?

Speaker 1 3:21

That's right. We were at war, that was the winter of our discontent and it's been made summer by the son of York. Who's that? The son of York is his elder brother. So basically, there is a peace, and there is a peace in England. But Richard is not king. In fact he's several in line for the throne.

Speaker 2 3:41

Which he's not happy about.

Speaker 1 3:41

He's not happy about, and so the play begins with him sharing with the audience his plot to undermine the current king, who is his brother, and basically take over. Right, he's letting people know what's about to happen.

Speaker 2 3:55

Right, okay, and who does that sound like?

Speaker 1 3:57

Who does that sound like? Yeah, I'm going to take over. I'm going to win this election.

Speaker 2 4:02

I'm going to win this election.

Welcome to Why Smart Women

Speaker 1 4:10

And one of the critical things about Richard III and the way that he takes the election is that he makes everybody in England believe he's not doing it for himself, he's doing it because he has to do it. You know he is there to basically make England great again.

Speaker 2 4:20

And there's that misplaced notion of I am doing this for you and we can see that pretty much in so many different contexts. I mean, I played Lady Anne. Yes, indeed. And you had me murdered.

Speaker 1 4:35

I did so nasty night after night, night after night. Was ever woman in this humour wooed? Was ever woman in this humour won? I'll have her, but I will not keep her long.

Speaker 2 4:48

Yeah, yeah, yeah and then you wooed me over the coffin. Yeah, the corpse of your, your husband who I also killed you just pretty much killed everybody, didn't you?

Speaker 2 4:57

yeah, yeah, yeah and I mean it's an interesting thing for actors, I think, is um, I often say to people that I my career was sort of littered with playing really awful people. And I'm not awful, I'm quite empathetic, but there is something about climbing head of a single-minded person who has no regard as to the health or well-being of the suffering of others, the suffering of others.

Speaker 1 5:37

They're prepared to do anything that they need to do in order to get what they want.

Speaker 2 5:40

And there's something about playing that.

Speaker 1 5:42

Yes.

Speaker 2 5:42

I know because I played Maya in. People probably don't remember but it was a series on the ABC called Love is a Four Letter Word and I played this really awful, awful. I don't know what I was. Was I an HR manager? I can't remember what I was, but I remember that.

Speaker 1 6:00

I was. No, you were the half owner of the pub. I was a half owner. Was I? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember that. No, you were the half owner of the pub. I was a half owner. Was I? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 6:05

Anyway, I was so awful and so uncaring and so dismissive of other people and there was something in the playing of that that's really deeply satisfying because it's uncomplicated.

Speaker 1 6:20

Isn't it? Yes, yeah, your eyes on the prize and you just go for it.

Speaker 2 6:23

It's just me, I just want me to win. I don't care about you, you're just collateral damage. There's something about those characters. It's like when you play a Richard III was a murderer and you also played Henry V.

Speaker 1 6:37

Yes, and Macbeth, and Macbeth, and all of whom I consider to be great villains. Some people think that Henry V is a great hero.

Speaker 2 6:45

No, he's not.

Playing Villainous Characters

Speaker 1 6:46

He's not. What did he do? He trumped up a reason to invade France. He got lucky at Harfleur. He got very lucky at Agincourt. He killed a whole lot of French people and then took the French princess to be his thing, To be his plaything. Now we're in danger here of reinforcing a great inaccuracy when we describe these characters as good or bad, and there's two reasons that I'm going to mention this. We can look at some of the big political or business players in the world today and we can go. They are bad people. But what we learn as actors.

Speaker 2 7:24

Why can't we do that? I?

Speaker 1 7:25

quite like that? Well, I know you do. You can be nice and single-minded about it. Now, this is the thing that we learn when we're playing a character who inverted commas. Some people might describe as a bad guy or a villainess.

Speaker 2 7:38

Yes.

Speaker 1 7:40

You can't play that. The character thinks that they are a bad no, that's right, that's right.

Speaker 2 7:45

The character you you cannot sit in judgment of your own character. No, because everybody that's doing what they're doing thinks they're right to be doing it.

Speaker 1 7:56

That's right right, and all of them, and, and and I I actually think maybe maybe you think I'm being a bit sort of naive and pollyanna ish about it, but, um, I think that that's an insight that we actually can translate into the people that share the planet with us at the moment yeah that if we get caught up in the idea that you know, this is a bad actor, you know this is a bad person, this is a good person, then we don't actually see them clearly, we don't see what they are actually doing.

Speaker 1 8:25

So you know, one of the things that I learned at NIDA is that the character so NIDA.

Speaker 2 8:30

For people that are not from Australia, nida is our National Institute of Dramatic Art in Australia. It's acting school, but it is the august organisation in Australia. If you want to be an actor and you get into NIDA, then it's a very, very big feather in your cap, because it has a massive audition process and only very few people get in. And David is NIDA alumni, aren't you? Yeah?

Speaker 1 9:04

yeah, you know, for what it's worth. What I took from that whole experience, and what I try to sort of reintroduce into life, is that when I'm dealing with someone who is being really difficult, I try to avoid judging them as good or bad and I just look at what it is that they are doing and I can then apply judgment to that. You know, I don't like what you're doing. I think what you're doing is counterproductive, I think what you're doing is aggressive or I think it's bullying.

Speaker 2 9:31

Oh, so you're playing the action, not the man.

Speaker 2 9:33

Yeah, that's right, that's right and I do think okay, so let's identify a character who's rather unpopular at the moment in Hang on before you do that just around that notion of judging behaviour, and that is that I think where we go wrong with that is that we get into a place and this is where I have issues with radical acceptance and the sort of spiritual notion of let's just be, try and be loving towards everybody and I think what happens is somebody will do something.

Speaker 2 10:18

You will have a strong negative feeling about that, you'll be hurt, you'll be outraged, you'll be a whole panoply of feelings that you can experience. Now, if you shut that feeling down because you think I shouldn't be feeling, that, what I want to feel is just optimistic, encouraging and loving towards other people, then your capacity to evaluate the situation is wildly reduced. So what we say is you know, if I come across someone, I need to acknowledge and accept the fact that I find their behavior dire, dreadful, whatever, and that has caused me some emotional pain. If I acknowledge that, I can then look at them in a more clear-eyed way and go yeah, I've got a very, very strong negative feeling about this, but I can evaluate what you're doing more clearly if I acknowledge the feeling. Does that make sense?

Judging Actions, Not People

Speaker 1 11:20

and this is why letting go of the idea of of character judgment can actually be really useful. I would not like to behave, um, like richard iii or macbeth you know those, those murderous monarchs is not something that I want to do, but playing those characters I discovered that if I give up myself license to, I can take powerful action.

Speaker 1 11:48

But to then say I am a powerful person that's a mistake, but I can take powerful action, and that's where our focus should be. I don't want to be a good person. I don't want to be a bad person. I want to take action that moves this relationship or this scenario in the right direction. And you know, there will be another moment and then I will take different action.

Speaker 2 12:10

I'll take soft action or yielding action, or and I think that's the that's the issue is that when we say to somebody who has grown up in an environment where being you know being the funny person, being the easy to get along with person, you know being the person that's no problem, being the person that would never involve themselves in a drama, when we say to them, let's look at the edges of that and see what it feels like to give yourself permission for that moment to be powerful. The fear is they're going to have to stay there.

Speaker 1 12:48

Yeah.

Speaker 2 12:50

And that's the whole nonsense of who are you as a person? Yes, well, we're not particularly anything. Our brain is a committee.

Speaker 1 12:57

That's right.

Speaker 2 12:57

We're not anything. We're just. Who am I in this moment and what action am I playing? What am I doing in this moment? And hopefully, we're driven by a set of decent values. We're just pausing for a minute to hear a word from our sponsor.

Speaker 1 13:10

The why Smart Women podcast is brought to you by Coup, a boutique training, coaching and media production company. A Coup spelt C-O-U-P, is a decisive act of leadership, and decisive leadership requires critical thinking. So well done you for investing. Thank you, code Annie. I think this might be a good time to actually name one of the cognitive biases that relate to this idea of self and identity, and that is the illusion of consistency. So there's an idea that we are a consistent self and that consistent self is basically run by a single entity, a control box, a spirit, a soul, an animus or something like that, that it is consistent and that it is singular. And that is reassuring because having a single focus, a single identity with which to relate to it's very reassuring because you think you know what you're going to get also we're tribally brained.

Speaker 2 14:28

I want to belong to something.

Speaker 1 14:29

I need an identity so I can belong to my tribe, and then I like my people and I hate yours that's right, there's something quite reassuring about we're good and you're bad and so the way that, the way that we belong to a tribe is that we can, we wear consistent clothes, you know. We use consistent language. You know we we enter into consistent behaviors, and that works, you know. That is the, that's the glue that holds social groups together. But what it does do is it gives rise to the illusion of consistency that there is a single, you know entity, you know, sort of just behind your eyes that's controlling everything.

Speaker 2 15:02

Yeah if you look out, so everyone who's listening, it's that interesting thing that you know you're probably all sitting around listening, hopefully with your eyes open, especially if you're driving. If you're driving and listening to this, I really hope you have your eyes open. Just saying, anyway, if you that sense of I'm looking out and the feeling that we have is that whoever we are, the self is whoever it is that's looking out from behind your eyes. It's interesting, isn't it? It is, but is it?

Speaker 1 15:30

It is not the case. So when we actually look at the way that the brain functions and that there are different parts of the brain that all have their own different languages, their different inputs, yes, all of that gets integrated into this singularity, but the fact is that the brain is more like a committee than just one voice. Yep, if you think about human beings over time, you know we are not the same person in our early years as we are later. In fact, we're not the same person when we wake up in the morning as who we are. So but yet, because it is simpler and reassuring for part of the mind to only have to deal with one identity, there is that illusion. Now, what are we? You know? What are we suggesting that people do?

Speaker 2 16:13

well, what are we suggesting people do as well, because I think having come from an acting background has given us some latitude and some skills around behaving in a broader way.

Speaker 1 16:28

Yeah.

Speaker 2 16:29

Would you agree with that? Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1 16:31

And a word that I think everybody understands pretty well and it's certainly applied to creative artists, and that's repertoire. You know to have a repertoire of behaviours. Sometimes our behaviours in some environments, our repertoire is limited If the environment that we're in school certain office cultures.

Speaker 1 16:54

When we enter into a formal environment, we have to limit our repertoire to be behaving acceptably in that environment. How you behave on the red carpet at the Met Gala, People behave in certain environment. You know how you behave on the red carpet at the Met Gala. You know people behave in certain ways. What our training in acting has done it has helped us to appreciate that human beings have the capacity to expand their repertoire to be able to do different things. So there's a little trade-off that we're describing here. When you forego the illusion of consistency and you accept that the mind has many voices, that your behavior has lots of different possibilities, that time unfolds and things are going to keep on changing. If you surrender the certainty that comes with surrendering that illusion, what's the benefit?

Speaker 2 17:47

and the benefit is that you give yourself the license to expand and the way to do that, in the absence of doing acting classes, I think, is just experiment with a different sense of holding yourself physically for starters. What do you think about that?

Expanding Your Behavioral Repertoire

Speaker 1 18:08

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's one thing, because the way that you hold yourself physically will give your mind feedback around whether it's safe. I just straightened my back then.

Speaker 2 18:17

Yes, because you were talking about physically.

Speaker 1 18:19

Yeah. So, if You're so much more powerful.

Speaker 2 18:23

Look, I'm quite scary now, aren't I?

Speaker 1 18:26

Because I'm sitting up straight. Oh no, I don't find you powerful scary. Oh don't you? No, I find you powerful, magnetic. Oh, what were we watching?

Speaker 2 18:32

last. We were watching a show last night and we really liked it, but there was a character in it oh the night agent.

Speaker 1 18:40

The night agent, you don't like the murderess.

Speaker 2 18:42

Yeah, the night agent itself is really good fun. It's great.

Speaker 1 18:45

Fantastic Kiwi actor in it.

Speaker 2 18:47

There's a really good Kiwi actor, but one of my pet hates is sexy murderer acting. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, sexy murderess. Everything's a bit like that.

Speaker 1 18:56

That's right.

Speaker 2 18:58

Sexy murderess.

Speaker 1 18:58

What we don't like about that is this character. This human being that she's playing is just overlaid with. She's sexy and she's evil and she's single-minded and she's bad, you know yeah. She's a black hat.

Speaker 2 19:10

She's a black hat. Yeah, it's annoying acting.

Speaker 1 19:13

Unfortunately, the character is playing the black hat.

Speaker 2 19:16

Yeah.

Speaker 1 19:16

And so it becomes two-dimensional yeah.

Speaker 2 19:20

But then you have a so much eyeliner and so much eyeshadow so it was really unnecessary. Like if you're that stressed and you're running around shooting people, I just don't think you'd be sort of a wash, worried by your makeup, silver, you know, silver eye shadow anyway.

Speaker 2 19:33

The thing is that if you find yourself in a repetitive situation where you feel unable to hold your ground and it's very common Rather than berating yourself, you know why can't I speak up? Why can't I? You know, why does my voice shake? You know, when I try and put my point across, why am I beset with nerves? Why am I such an idiot? Why am I such a loser? Why can't I just do it?

Speaker 2 20:03

If you can sort of hold that negative not negative unhelpful self-talk over to one side and just start to experiment with what we actors have known for a really long time, which is experiment with stillness, experiment with slowing down your response Don't let the other person determine the pace of the conversation. Slow down your breathing, keep your head still, use less movement and just see if those simple things start to affect the way you are perceived and the way you perceive yourself, you are perceived and the way you perceive yourself. And second to that, when this doesn't work and you try it which it won't because we're so habitualized around behavior don't then layer in another. You know I'm such an idiot I can't even do that, because this stuff that we're talking about. Although simple, is quite difficult to apply. Yeah, and look it might work, it might work, it might work.

Speaker 1 21:06

It might work, and it'll be awesome when it does. Yeah, another thing that so, annie's given you stillness, not stiffness, but stillness.

Speaker 2 21:14

Because you've got to be available to move.

Speaker 1 21:15

You've got to keep breathing when you're still, You've got to feel your feet on the floor. You know your back against the chair when you slow things down, that also helps, and sometimes brevity.

Practical Acting Techniques for Life

Speaker 2 21:29

Oh, yeah, not talking too much is true.

Speaker 1 21:31

When was the last time you responded to a question and you just said no?

Speaker 2 21:37

Without having to justify your response.

Speaker 1 21:39

Yeah or no. Thank you if you want to be polite, but still brief, definite, clear, simple. No. When you're asking for something and you ask and you say I want it and I want it now, just nice and simple.

Speaker 2 21:56

And remember that your emotional response to that you might think, oh, I'm not being very nice, I'm not being very polite, remembering that women are socialized around being nice and polite, just have that thought. It's not particularly relevant, it's just a repetitive thought. Yeah.

Speaker 1 22:10

You're not being nice, it's what you are doing that matters. That's right. And so when you are saying the word no, you are declining. When you are saying now, you know, maybe you are instructing somebody. When you say I'm done, you are informing people.

Speaker 2 22:29

Yeah, so this has been a little insight into the acting world and how we end up playing characters that are far removed from who we are as people, end up playing characters that are far removed from who we are as people, and we hope that some of the principles that we use in theatre and television we know they're actually transferable skills. So give it a go.

Speaker 1 22:56

Yeah, and can I just suggest something?

Speaker 2 22:58

here as long as it's really quick, okay, really quick.

Speaker 1 23:02

When we are engaged to solve difficult, strategic, cultural, tactical questions you know, up and down the org chart we have to sometimes come at it from a very high and complex place. What we find is the things that make the most difference are things that are fundamental and that are simple, and part of our frustration is that we don't often get the time to teach people about acting.

Speaker 2 23:30

So we're actually going to be doing some acting classes, sure we are going to be doing some acting classes, so if you happen to live in sydney um we'll put the details up on the um on in the show notes for the podcast, because acting, um, you know the principles of acting. They underpin confidence and all the things that, as human beings, we'd actually like to have.

Speaker 1 23:53

Yeah, exactly, all right, and so, without having to couch it in other terms, it's going to be fun, it's going to be creative, it's going to be very, very active, by definition, and that might be something that you want to come along and experiment.

Acting Classes and Episode Closing

Speaker 2 24:04

So we'll stick it in the show notes. Anyway, thanks for tuning in. I hope this has been an interesting episode. Have a lovely afternoon, stay safe and keep your critical thinking hat firmly on. See you Bye.

Speaker 2 24:20

Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women See you later.

Speaker 2 25:39

This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.