Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Acting Beyond Pretense
Have you ever noticed how some people can command attention with seemingly effortless authenticity while others leave you feeling manipulated or confused? The secret might lie in techniques actors have been refining for centuries.
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David, if you don't empty the dishwasher, I'm going to make your life hell.
Speaker 2:See, now, that was really good acting, I know. Yeah because I was frightened then.
Speaker 1:You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself.
Speaker 1:This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day, always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello Smart Women and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. After last episode, where I talked to Debra and Lucinda both actors and the themes of that seem to be very popular with listeners, so I thought we'd extend the notion of acting, what it means for us in a broader context, and today I'm going to talk to David, who's also an actor, so it's like two episodes in a row, both around acting, almost like how do you apply theatre, how do you apply acting to your life? Are there things to be learnt from the principles of acting that you can actually apply in your everyday life? David?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I guess that's the question. I mean, why talk about this strange profession where grown-up adults pretend to be someone that they're not? And I think that there's the first misconception People think that acting is fundamentally about pretending.
Speaker 1:Isn't it Well?
Speaker 2:not necessarily. I mean the essence of acting Well.
Speaker 1:I've murdered quite a few people as an actor.
Speaker 2:As an actor.
Speaker 1:And yeah, I've died twice.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Murdered. Some people really held guns in a very threatening manner at people as well, and I've been really super nasty. But wasn't I pretending because I'm not really nasty, I'm not a murderer, I'm not dead.
Speaker 2:Yes, you were pretending, but the things that you're referring to, that's plot, that's story, that's the fictional world in which the action is taking place. And so, for people who are curious, what is it that actors actually do? What is it that they're able to do? It's much simpler than you'd expect. A cricketer plays cricket. A swimmer swims. A roller skater skates.
Speaker 1:An actor what does an?
Speaker 2:actor. Do An actor acts Instead of pretending they act. Well, look, the pretense is secondary.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:So I mean, you know, let's imagine that the play demands that I welcome you into an environment.
Speaker 1:Hang on, let's go back to me, yeah back to you. I've already begun, something I thought quite interesting. Okay, so I was in a television show and I did threaten a number of people with a gun yeah. Right, and that was the plot. It was really fun.
Speaker 2:I really liked that. What did you like about having the gun in your hand?
Speaker 1:I felt powerful.
Speaker 2:You felt powerful. Okay, that's right. And you were only as powerful as.
Speaker 1:It wasn't loaded. There was nobody on set that was in any danger from me.
Speaker 2:No, no, that's Just saying I think that that was wise of the production manager not to hand a loaded gun to you, but everybody had to pretend that the gun that I was powerful. Well, that the gun was loaded, thereby making you powerful. And so what were you able to do? You were able to threaten people.
Speaker 1:I was threatening, yeah.
Speaker 2:You were demanding things of them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I wanted something, so I was threatening them.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I wanted them to leave me alone. I think I was behind a car.
Speaker 2:Oh, you wanted to frighten them away. I wanted to frighten them away.
Speaker 1:I wanted to frighten yes, you wanted to scare them. Yeah, I wanted to scare them?
Speaker 2:yeah, and I can be quite scary. So here's the, I guess, the insight or the challenge of thinking about acting in a more realistic way. What you are doing is you are pretending, but at the heart of it, what the audience is watching is one human being doing something to another human being, or human beings. It's watching what we do. So there are some dramas that are really, really simple.
Speaker 1:Like what.
Speaker 2:Let's take pornography right, Must we?
Speaker 1:Well, I'm just talking, let's not take pornography. Well, I don't want to take pornography. Why not, I don't want to think about it. I don't like it. I don't want to think about it.
Speaker 2:I don't like it, I don't agree with it Because it's right at an extreme. You know the acting's not very, very good, but it is clearly people doing things to each other, right?
Speaker 1:People doing physical things to each other, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la, la la la, Leaving, pornography behind.
Speaker 2:Now let's imagine we're looking at a gritty where various members of the family are tormenting one another. Yeah, you know, they're teasing.
Speaker 1:Teasing.
Speaker 2:They're belittling, they're, you know.
Speaker 1:Criticising, criticising all of those sorts of things, getting defensive.
Speaker 2:Getting defensive. Okay, so in this instance, you know, maybe nothing is happening physically between the two characters.
Speaker 1:Oh, I see.
Speaker 2:Yet those characters are still doing things to each other.
Speaker 1:It's not physical action, it's psychological action so if you go back to me holding a gun, that's a physical action, yes, but what I could do to you right now is I could threaten you. Yeah, I could play a strong action on you, like I could say hang on to go to, to think now if you don't empty the dishwasher, I'm going to make your life hell can I try that? Yes, try that, david. If you don't empty the dishwasher, I'm going to make your life hell see now, that was really good acting, I know yeah because I was frightened then.
Speaker 1:I know I felt really good doing it.
Speaker 2:If you don't. I mean it felt like there was something important going on.
Speaker 1:Did you actually want to go and empty the dishwasher?
Speaker 2:I did In the face of my threat, I actually felt myself lifting myself out of my chair to get it done as quickly as possible, because I don't want you to make my life hell. Yes, Because I don't want you to make my life hell? Yes, so once again we've got two things going on here. We've got the story Annie's threatening David, and that's pretend, but the thing that is real is what you are doing to me in that pretend environment.
Speaker 1:And so what was I doing?
Speaker 2:Oh, you were menacing me.
Speaker 1:I was menacing you, but I could do it badly.
Speaker 2:I felt pressured, I felt Bel, but I could do it badly, I felt pressured.
Speaker 1:I felt Belittled. No, no, I just think I threatened you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but I'll do it badly. Okay, and let's see the difference. David, if you don't empty the dishwasher, I'm going to make your life hell.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was terrible.
Speaker 1:I know yeah. So, same, no, yeah, so same plot, but the acting, the action that you were playing just wasn't believable. And this is I think. It is really interesting. I think and we see the same thing when we're helping people with presentations or helping someone to develop content. You know, everyone's a content producer now, everyone has content online and what happens is we talk about doing something and what they get caught up in is the sound.
Speaker 1:The sound of it, yes, the sound of what they're doing, and what's wrong with that. Can you explain what's wrong with that?
Speaker 2:Come on, jojo, up your hop. Well, if you let's see, form follows function. You know human beings and the way that we communicate. It's tremendously sophisticated, and it's the result of, you know, hundreds of thousands of years of human beings learning how to communicate with each other effectively.
Speaker 1:And so what acting does is it merely replicates what human beings do to other human beings, which is why, when you watch something really good on television, say when we, because no one would want to sit in a lounge room with David and I while we're watching television, would they Because?
Speaker 2:we use we talk about it all the time, we talk about it the running commentary. But we use the same language, don't we? We talk about it all the time, we talk about it the running commentary.
Speaker 1:But we use the same language, don't we?
Speaker 2:Yeah, we do.
Speaker 1:You and I, and what happens is we'll be watching a scene on television like the Bear.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And we will talk about how the actions that they are playing on each other are grounded in the reality of the character's history. Yeah, yeah, do you want to talk about that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, I mean, the thing about the Bear is a production Forgive me if you've not seen it, but it's a drama that's pretty much entirely set inside a restaurant. It occasionally goes home with the characters and into the past and other places, but it's very concentrated in a restaurant and it is a family business. And that family, that extended family, has a very complicated, very emotional history and, like happens in life, we carry that history with us but it's concealed, it's buried, and the way that we communicate with each other in normal sort of functional transactions sometimes it can be really, really clean, but what can also happen.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by clean?
Speaker 2:Clean. Let's imagine that you know, prepare a plate of linguine bolognese. Yep, I could ask you. I want you to make the linguine bolognese, okay, Now, if it's really, really clean, all that's going on in the communication is I'm asking you to prepare a dish, yeah, but, and that's clean, clean.
Speaker 1:It's just what you're saying is what you mean. That's right, and you make the linguine.
Speaker 2:I mean when I say you know, linguine bolognese, get it to me in five minutes.
Speaker 1:And then I could say to you you could say, yes, I'll do it, or I could. No, keep it clean, okay, keep it clean. Okay, I'll make the linguine bolognese.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all right. So let's imagine in you are. You've said in the past that I don't want to eat carbs. You don't want to make carbs.
Speaker 1:I don't want to make carbs. You don't want to have anything to do with carbs.
Speaker 2:And you think that linguine bolognese is a bad dish?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So when I'm now saying to you, listen, I want you to prepare me a linguine bolognese, I could add to it not just the request, yeah, but I could add a little bit of threat in there as well. Okay, you better do this. I'm expecting that you're going to resist my request for you to prepare that dish, yeah, and so I give it a little bit of extra edge.
Speaker 1:And that is the history of our interpersonal relationships coming in.
Speaker 2:So do it with a bit of threat now, yeah yeah, Listen, I want you to make the linguine bolognese okay.
Speaker 1:Back off that a bit. I thought that was a bit much Okay.
Speaker 2:Annie serve up a linguine bolognese.
Speaker 1:Now, that was better, that was better acting.
Speaker 2:No, that was better acting. Why was it better acting? No?
Speaker 1:that was better acting. Why was it better acting? Because I felt the underlying demand underneath it, without you having to layer something on top and then I could say to you oh fine, I'll make linguine bolognese.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, and that wasn't clean. That's not clean. Yeah, because I can hear the resistance in it.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So this is how we define good acting, in that the transaction, the transactional part of the dialogue, is clear. I'm asking for the dish to be prepared, but what makes the acting interesting is that our history creeps into the expression of the line. So my insistence I want you to make this dish and I want you to make it without any trouble is met with your slightly resentful yeah agreement yeah okay yeah so it's a, it's that combination of the transactional and the historical, that gets expressed.
Speaker 1:What we're not trying to do is just change our voices and sound more interesting, and that's bad acting. And what you're talking about there, which I think is really relevant, um, in terms of the way we transact just in our everyday lives.
Speaker 1:I don't know if you remember this, but um the work of yefgeny lanskoy in the four circles of attention I just think that is the most, the clearest way to describe, um, the way we communicate and where our attention is, and so I still think about it. Now, you know, sometimes you'll be saying something and I'll be saying something at the same time, and I think we're both in third circle of attention because we're not saying what we mean, or we're both. So the four what were they?
Speaker 2:Because it's really significant. Yeah, we better describe these. So this is an aspect of acting technique that helps people to clarify where their attention is when they are playing actions. You know when they are communicating, just communicating, yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, and the first circle of attention is when you're actually talking to yourself.
Speaker 1:And so David could be standing in the kitchen talking to yourself and so david could be standing in the kitchen um talking to himself, saying this why don't we have any kitchen paper? Oh, damn it. And then I could be standing in the lounge room at exactly the same time, but near him, and so while he's saying that and talking to himself, I could be saying so go and start. No, why don't we have any kitchen paper? Why didn't somebody? Why, why would you continue to leave socks on the lounge room floor?
Speaker 1:When I've said about a thousand times Okay, so and then, if we never answer each other which we don't, yeah, often you're talking to yourself and I'm talking to myself, and never the twain shall meet, don't you think?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. So this is the first circle of attention. Yeah, the first circle of attention is when your psychological action, when your talk, is actually directed to yourself. In order that people understand what we mean by the four circles of attention, would it be okay if I just described all four quickly, and then we can go back and have a look at each one in a bit of a deep dive.
Speaker 1:I'm going to pat Yo-Yo Okay.
Speaker 2:Look, the first circle of attention is when you're talking to yourself. It's that self-talk. It's either self-direction or self-encouragement you can do it or self-admonishment. You're such an idiot. And the first circle of attention your energy is turned back upon itself Perfect.
Speaker 2:Second circle of attention is when you are talking to another person and you say what you mean, and you mean what you say, like what it, and you say what you mean, and you mean what you say, like what it's very overt. It could be a request Could I please have a coffee? It could be a comment that's a lovely shirt that you're wearing today. Good, got it. It could be a question what's the next thing that we have to do this afternoon? It could be an answer to that question. Well, the next thing that we have to do this afternoon is take the dogs for a a walk. Good, it's really simple. You say what you mean. You mean what you say, got it. Third circle of attention is where you are saying something, but there's another agenda. So you're saying something and you mean something else. Okay, like gee, I noticed you're well prepared for this podcast today, annie.
Speaker 1:Right. So you're saying what you're not saying is you're well prepared for the podcast.
Speaker 2:Because if you say that in second circle of attention, oh, I can see that you're well prepared for the podcast today.
Speaker 1:So that was you say, what you mean, you mean what you say.
Speaker 2:Second circle of attention.
Speaker 1:Third circle Do it again.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I can see you're well prepared for the podcast today.
Speaker 1:And the implication is you're not well prepared. You're holding something back. Go on to fourth, and then I'll go back to third.
Speaker 2:And then the fourth circle of attention. Okay, so, from second into third, there's this other place, there's this other agenda. That's part of your communication. That's third circle of attention. In the fourth circle of attention, all your energy is actually going into another dimension. So it's like praying you know, god, please let me win the lottery this week. Or when you're talking to the stoic gods oh, I guess I'm going to have to deal with this. It's like you're not trying to have an impact on anybody present, but it's like your imagination is saying that if you say this thing into the fourth dimension, yeah, talking to God.
Speaker 1:Or they also talk about when an actor does a soliloquy, you know, to be or not to be. That is the question. That is also fourth circle of attention. Well, no, not necessarily. Yes, it is.
Speaker 2:No, it's not. It is no, it could be talking to yourself to be or not to be, that is my question. That could be first circle of attention If I was doing it to you, annie listen to be or not to be.
Speaker 1:That is the question. But the character isn't the character's on their own on stage.
Speaker 2:Well, it's up to the actor to choose where his attention is going. But isn't Hamlet on stage at that point on his own while he's soliloquizing? But he could be talking to himself, he could imagine that he's talking to the audience.
Speaker 1:You know, break the first wall and just say to the audience yeah, but if you're talking to the audience, that's soliloquizing and that's fourth circle. I think I'm right. I could be wrong, yeah, I've been wrong before, but it's rare, I would play the quality of it differently.
Speaker 2:You know if I was doing to be or not to be to an audience. Go on, do it. Second circle of attention To be or not to be? That is the question. Keep going. Whether it is nobler, okay. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and, by opposing, end them. Okay, now do it first circle, okay, now do it first circle. Okay. First circle of attention, if I did it to myself. To be or not to be? That is the question. Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, or to take arms against a sea of troubles and, by opposing, end them.
Speaker 1:Okay, see right. Yeah, all right. No, I think you're right about that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you could do it. Third circle of attention you could be talking to the audience with a hidden agenda. Ha, To be or not to be? That is the question.
Speaker 1:I don't know that feels like it's hard work, yeah.
Speaker 2:Let's imagine that I'm talking to God. God To be or not to be, that is the question Whether it is nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune or take arms against us. Yeah, that also doesn't seem to work. So in rehearsal, what I will do as an actor is I will work out where should I be putting my attention so that the expression of these thoughts actually makes sense.
Speaker 1:And in terms of the reason I really like the work of Yevgeny Lanskoy and the Four Circles of Attention is I just think it is so relevant to the everyday communication of of us as people, because we so much and if listeners out there start to think about this um, statements, questions, queries, admonishments do you make that are third circle of attention. So you say one thing but you mean another thing. And how much of our lives do we spend actually not being direct, not saying what we mean, but actually saying one thing with an agenda?
Speaker 2:We're just pausing for a minute to hear a word from our sponsor, and decisive leadership requires critical thinking. So well done you for investing time to think about your thinking, if your leadership or relationships would benefit from some grounded and creative support. If you want team training or a conference presentation, reach out for a confidential one-on-one conversation using the link in the description, or go to Kooco. Okay, let's talk about why this might be useful to people who are not actors. Being clear on where you are, you know where you are, sending your energy into which of these circles of attention you are communicating, will help solve a problem.
Speaker 2:There's countless coaching conversations. People have struggled to work out why they have the impact on you know their colleagues or their you know intimate partner that they do. You know they want to know. You know I don't get it. She's always cross with me, or I don't get it he never listens, or I don't get it. They don't understand how important this is to me, and it could be because the communication is not actually happening in the optimal circle of attention. You know. It could be that if you're terribly, terribly nervous in a time when you need to be direct and demanding, you could become very internalized.
Speaker 1:The thing is that about clarity, of being clear in a conversation and saying what you mean and meaning what you say. Right, yeah, which is, let's say, optimum is dependent on the power balance or imbalance in the relationship In the relationship.
Speaker 2:So, if I'm in a relationship with you and you're dominating, yeah, then my capacity to actually clearly say what it is that I want is reduced, isn't it? It could be. I think it would depend on the context. It would depend on the circumstances. Hey, try this. Okay, let's have a conversation where. How about this? You want to take the car this afternoon? Yeah, right. And what I want you to do is to be very second circle of attention when you talk about taking the car this afternoon.
Speaker 1:Okay. So, second circle of attention just for anybody listening. That is, I mean what I say, and I say what I mean.
Speaker 2:That's right, and I'll be third circle of attention.
Speaker 1:I've got the weirdest deja vu. Have we done this before?
Speaker 2:No, I think we should have done it before.
Speaker 1:I'm not having a stroke.
Speaker 2:It could be quite interesting. Okay, it would be less interesting that. No, what would be more interesting? You having a stroke or this piece of dialogue? I'm not quite sure.
Speaker 1:So what's the dog doing this? She's lost the plot. What is? She's obsessed with you. She's trying to climb on david's lap while he's recording yeah, it's because I'm very present, right?
Speaker 2:now, oh my god, you're a pain well, that's nice it's true okay, so you want car and you'll be very second circle of attention. I'll be third circle of attention. Let's just see what happens.
Speaker 1:All right, David, I've got to go down and pick up Rowena at four o'clock, so I'll need the car.
Speaker 2:You want to take the car this afternoon?
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:To pick Rowena up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, car this afternoon.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to pick Rowena up. Yeah, are you her taxi driver now?
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 2:You're not, no, so why is it you have to pick Rowena up Because she needs a lift? Yeah, she's very lucky. You know that she's got you to drive her around whenever she wants.
Speaker 1:I don't know. I think there's quite a lot of reciprocity in the relationship, so she often drives me around too.
Speaker 2:Have you checked the schedule for this afternoon? Yeah, have you seen what I've got on? That's a very long pause. I wonder if you actually know what I've got on.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know what your schedule has to do with me picking Rowena up, Well what you think.
Speaker 2:I have got time to walk everywhere.
Speaker 1:So what you're saying is you want the car.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, do I have to be that overt about it? Yes, do you want the car or do you not want the car? Whose car is this? Anyway, it's our car. Do you want it? Oh, so you agree, it's our car do you Certainly. Okay, so I have got the right to drive it from time to time. Yes, you do. Okay. Well, there you go, I could walk. If that's what you wanted, do you want?
Speaker 1:the car? Or do you not want the car?
Speaker 2:Just tell me and I will speak to Rowena what I have to spell it out to you, do I?
Speaker 1:No, just say clearly do you want the car or do you not want the car? So clear. So what are my options? Again, do you want the car?
Speaker 2:or do you not want? What an annoying conversation this is now. Can I just?
Speaker 1:tell you that the feeling inside me yeah I so wanted to go you yeah, yeah, and I didn't.
Speaker 2:You didn't because you stayed in the second circle of attention now does everybody see what happened then?
Speaker 1:I stayed in a very, very clear case of I answered the questions that he, that he asked me as if they were genuine.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I did not get caught up in the inferential style of the conversation.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:So if you were in second circle of attention, that would have gone like this I need to take the car this afternoon to pick up Rowena.
Speaker 2:That's not going to work for me, because I also want to take the car.
Speaker 1:Oh, where do you need to go?
Speaker 2:I've got to get to Chatswood.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, can you get a bus?
Speaker 2:I'd rather not take the bus. Can I tell you why? Sure, because I want the journey home to be really, really efficient and I don't want to wait around for a bus.
Speaker 1:Oh sure, thanks for that. Okay, so that took about I don't know a tenth of the time. Yes, with much less emotional cost.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:But the thing is that you I think there is so much satisfaction for some people living in that highly familiar defensive third circle of attention place where there's sort of you can punish somebody without ever actually being overt about it.
Speaker 2:Would you agree with that Absolutely? I mean, it's the way that you can avoid accountability. I think the word that I would use to describe it is slippery.
Speaker 1:It's really slippery, but I felt so manipulated then as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And what you did was you just dug into second circle of attention.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I just kept answering as if the question was genuine.
Speaker 2:I know, and the effect on me. Did you feel your power increasing as that went? Okay, it's really interesting. There's a nice little takeaway, you know, is this what's really happening? Did you just say that? Can I tell you what I think about that? You know, keeping it above board, it's riskier Are you?
Speaker 1:when you said to me are you Rowena's taxi?
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're Rowena's taxi driver.
Speaker 1:Now, if I'd gone into third circle of attention, right, I would have said. The thing is that you said are you Rowena's taxi, right? Yeah, which infers I'm submissive to her desires.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:And I just said no, I'm not. And it was really satisfying, yeah, saying that.
Speaker 2:Okay, so there's great power in being able to just effortlessly move into the second, second circle of attention.
Speaker 1:it's non-defended, it's very, very present, um, it's uh, you know, you become a, um, an immovable object yeah, I could really feel that, instead of getting caught up in the what do you mean mean, what do you mean? Am I ruining this taxi? What's that meant to mean?
Speaker 2:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 1:Which is more?
Speaker 2:What you can't work it out.
Speaker 1:Well, no, I can't work it out. I don't know what you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Oh, poor you.
Speaker 1:What? Why are you patronizing?
Speaker 2:me.
Speaker 1:Okay and the drama goes up. And about being in argumentative relationships, I'm like, oh my God, how tiring. But what has this got to do with? I guess, when we coach people with their presentations or when somebody is trying to create content, for instance, how can they use these sort of acting mechanisms? To assist themselves.
Speaker 2:So, look, the foundational skills that we teach help people to move into the present, to move into that second circle of attention, so they are more aware of what is actually around them, what is actually, you know, being communicated by another person. And when you're present, when you're present, you know, subtle messages are being sent to the emotional part of your brain that everything's okay. What do you mean by present? Present, well, you're not worrying about the future, you know. You're not angsting about the past.
Speaker 1:You are here and you are in the present Actually listening, yeah, listening and watching and being. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:In when we're working with coaching clients corporate coaching clients it's a bit like we have to teach them some fundamental acting skills to be present when they are in high-pressure situations, like if they're giving someone a difficult performance management conversation or if they have to give a presentation, or if they have to give a high-stakes presentation to a board, or if they have to tell somebody that they no longer have a job, or people who are trying to drive through transformation.
Speaker 2:You've still got a job, but the nature of your job is going to be different. Those things put people under pressure.
Speaker 1:And what happens to people when they're under pressure? What happens to people's communication and the clarity of their communication when they're under pressure? Because, as actors, we have to perform all the time, do we not? We are always under pressure, right, yeah, it's never. We're never in a relaxed. It's never relaxed, really, is it? You're either on a stage or you're on a television studio. You've got to be on on and present.
Speaker 2:You've got to be on, on and present. You've got to be on and acting well. What did our improvisation teacher, dean Carey, used to describe it as Restful awareness. I think was the oh, that's so nice.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:It was you were aware, but you were also at rest. You weren't tensely aware yeah, I mean there was, there were stakes, you were under pressure, but that pressure didn't close in on you and limit your repertoire yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:it's 34 minutes already. So okay, because I think we're going to keep coming back to this notion of how acting principles skills and how you can apply it to everyday life, wouldn't you think? I think it's good? I mean, I think it's handy. I use it all the time.
Speaker 2:I mean you launched into Lanscois' Four Circles of Attention today.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I wasn't kind of, you know, super prepared to have that conversation, but as we do, I think the outtake is the power of Second Circle of Attention. You know the power of being present, and there are. You know there are acting skills in an acting class. There are acting skills in an acting class. You can practice actually simply being present in a dynamic, changing environment.
Speaker 1:And God knows we need to be agile. It's the flavor of the month, that word. We do need to be agile and flexible because everything is I mean people talk about it all the time. Everything is changing so quickly, and to remain present and adaptive but also have rested awareness is a. It's a big ask, right?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Are you going to say anything else?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, I was. I was just waiting to make sure you'd finished that particular point.
Speaker 1:I finished that sentence.
Speaker 2:And with the increasing presence of artificial intelligence in workplaces, we are going to see an increase in the amount of information that gets generated.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know project plans. You know marketing schedules. You know project plans. You know marketing schedules. You know great swathes of content that are generated by a single prompt. There's going to be an enormous amount of information and I think we risk being lost in that sea of information and getting caught in a you know with our attention that is out of the present, which is out of the people that we are actually communicating with.
Speaker 1:Interesting you should say that because I was at a women in banking. Let's start that again. Interesting you should say that because I was at a women in banking lunch yesterday hosted by the National Australia Bank here in Sydney, and it was really interesting that these women that at the very top of the organisation talked about how, with this onslaught of change that is coming, what is required is that human beings need to keep communicating well, to keep communicating with empathy, to keep communicating with good listening skills, to be able to pick up the phone and have a decent conversation. So these skills, in the face of AI, are almost more important because we can't leave people behind. Yeah, that's right, we will turn to other people. In the face of this, there's a danger that we will get to other people.
Speaker 2:In the face of this, there's a danger that we will get lost when people focus too much on the information and they lose contact with the communication. Say that one more time. We've got lots of information, got lots of information, but information does not equal communication. 100, and these will be the enduring human skills to take information and to create meaning from it. Yeah, through communication and a tool like the four circles of attention. Am I talking to myself? Am I talking to another? Am I talking to another with an agenda? Am I talking to you? Know?
Speaker 2:the gods, the gods, yeah um to to to be clear on on where your communication is going is going to make your communication more effective.
Speaker 1:So let's have an experiment, you and I, over the next week.
Speaker 2:Yeah, this is going to be an ongoing.
Speaker 1:I'm throwing down the gauntlet.
Speaker 2:Do you know?
Speaker 1:where that expression comes from.
Speaker 2:Throwing down the gauntlet.
Speaker 1:Yeah, Go on say it.
Speaker 2:Okay, so warring knights would wear gauntlets. They're basically big gloves and the way to challenge someone to a duel.
Speaker 1:So this is in medieval England or whatever.
Speaker 2:Medieval times. Yeah, if you took your gloves off, whacked them on the face and then threw them down it was a challenge.
Speaker 1:Oh so a gauntlet was one of those big gloves that comes up to the mid sort of mid knee elbow yeah, that's right. And throwing down the gauntlet is saying I'm going to fight you All, right, okay, david.
Speaker 2:Do you want to fight me?
Speaker 1:No, I don't want to fight you. I don't want to fight you. I'm throwing down the gauntlet for this challenge. Okay, yeah, and we're going to report back in a week. Okay, and the challenge is let's stay in the second circle of attention with every one of our communications between now and next Tuesday.
Speaker 2:Between you and I.
Speaker 1:Well, I can't control anybody else. Okay, and Yo-Yo can be part of it. Yo-yo, get off the bed. She's just hopeless. So yeah, what do you think? Do you want to try?
Speaker 2:Yeah, let's try it and report back on whether it seems to have improved things or not.
Speaker 1:Well, things are pretty good Things are good. What do you mean? Improved it, I don't know.
Speaker 2:Clearly you've got something in your mind.
Speaker 1:What do you think would be interesting?
Speaker 2:It would be interesting, I think we are pretty. Second circle we are, yeah, okay, well, let's give it a go and lean into it even more.
Speaker 1:Righty-ho. Well, I hope that was interesting for you listeners. It was certainly very interesting for us and I think we'll keep going on this particular vein of inquiry. I think it's interesting. I do note that the black dog, Yo-Yo, for the entire time we have been doing this podcast, or the last 40 minutes has been trying to climb on david's lap lovely dog it's ever.
Speaker 1:Do you know what it is? It's since you put her under the shower. She's so traumatized. It is true. No second circle of attention. The dog is more traumatised since you put her under the shower.
Speaker 2:I don't agree with you. I don't think so at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, she was a bit nervy but since the shower incident, which went on for like half an hour and she came out looking like some sort of black drowned rat, there was a lot of cleaning to be done. She's now more nervy than she used to be. She's not more nervy?
Speaker 2:Was that second circle? Yeah, it was second. She's not more nervy, she's more affectionate, nor needy. She's very, very happy that I liberated some of the mud, the mud and the matted bits, all right.
Speaker 1:Well, that's all. Very well, all right. Um, that's the end of that. Thank you so much for listening. Wherever you are in the world, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you next week, bye-bye.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning into why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home please, please, respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later.
Speaker 1:This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
