Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
The thin line between anti-vax ideology and white supremacy is getting thinner.
When neo-Nazis take the podium at your rally and receive cheers instead of condemnation, it's time to question what movement you're truly part of. The Snarky Gherkin joins Annie McCubbin to examine the disturbing connection between Australia's anti-vax "freedom" movement and white nationalist groups that have found fertile recruiting ground among conspiracy theorists.
Wellness CuratedWellness Curated is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life
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You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind.
Speaker 1:I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women, and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. I think I mentioned in my last episode that came out on Tuesday that there had been a series of anti-immigration marches across Australia and I had, on that particular episode I did, an excerpt from my book why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions about a racist neighbour that discovered you know how people of a different race actually eat as humans through her interactions with them, and also I read at a piece that I had written just about how disingenuous these anti-immigration marches are. So today, as a continuation of that discussion, I have everybody's favourite gherkin on the snarky gherkin and we're going to further discuss what goes on at these anti-immigration rallies, what drives them and how come there's neo-Nazis there. So hello, snarky.
Speaker 2:Hello, thanks for having me back on Nice to see you again.
Speaker 1:That's all right. I think it's becoming a regular thing now. It's our third, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It is. It's our third, isn't it? It is, it's our third now. Yeah, it's good fun. I haven't ever been on a podcast before, haven't you?
Speaker 1:Oh, you'll be widespread, because I know now that your page is in like 10,000, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's exploded. Yeah, it's the last sort of two weeks. Yeah, it's absolutely exploded. So I think the content is is resonating with people and it's the community that make up it as well, like they're just absolute legends in the comments. Yeah it's. Yeah, just love it. So, yeah, it's been been really good lately and you're um.
Speaker 1:You're all over the world as well, aren't you?
Speaker 2:yes, yeah, there's been a big influx. I think you may have introduced me to somewhat of an American audience and I think also our friends at the vaccination station as well. It's given some exposure there American phenomenon, whilst a lot of it does emanate from the US that other countries around the world are struggling with this cooker of disinformation, as we call it. So, it's been good to sort of communicate with some of those people both on the outside and behind the scenes in messages, Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's good, and to our, because I have a lot of US listeners. Hello, US listeners.
Speaker 2:Howdy.
Speaker 1:Hello from us. We really appreciate the fact that. I know that you're in a fairly difficult situation at the moment with Trump and RFK and the dismantling of the CDC, so we'd like to think that we put a little bit of sanity back in your day. And also, it happens here as well. The madness, the anti-vax madness happens here as well. So we had these marches. They were in Melbourne, sydney, brisbane Were they Hobart? I can't remember. Yeah, sydney, brisbane Were they Hobart? I can't remember.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's about 12 people in Hobart. I saw a picture of a lone wanderer with a flag down there, but yeah, they did have a following, so yeah, and what is it that?
Speaker 1:so it's really interesting because I know when we had Dave on from the vaccination station. Really interesting because I know when we had Dave on from the vaccination station we discussed the fact that there's now the sort of the extreme right-wing white supremacist sort of movement has co-opted the anti-vaxxers.
Speaker 2:Is that what you think?
Speaker 1:And that seems to be what's happened, doesn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so when we met a few weeks ago, it was suspected that they were involved and then in the lead-up to it, they were just blatantly like yes, they were claiming to have organised it. They were there in numbers in Melbourne.
Speaker 1:Oh, hang on. So in this you're saying they claimed to have organised this anti-immigration march, which was on Sunday in Australia. That's correct. They had claimed.
Speaker 2:Now, I don't think they were the originators of the marches, but they were certainly pushing it hard within their own circles and, yes, during the marches they definitely tried to position themselves front and centre. There was no real opposition to them. There was a couple of punch-ons between them and you know RB at Rebel News, but at one point Thomas Sewell, who's the head of the National Socialist Network, Okay, so for overseas listeners, the National Socialist Network is the home base of neo-Nazis here in Australia. They're really lovely people even though it's actually beautiful.
Speaker 1:And Thomas Sewell is their spokesman correct?
Speaker 2:That's right and we're not just flippantly calling them Nazis because we don't agree with their ideology. Like they are actually. They call themselves Nazis Like it's white Australia. You know there was that and they just feel a lot more emboldened to just talk about it openly. There was a a twitter conversation leak from the actual like um, the person beck freedom, who was the registered uh organizer of the sydney rally, and she just said blatantly but we're calling it. I should have, actually I should have written down the quote. But she says you know, for the masses, you know we're calling it meant to, you know, protect Australian culture, but what we really mean is white culture and it's.
Speaker 2:I'll send you a link for the listen, for the listeners.
Speaker 1:So Bec Freedom for people who don't know who she is. There's a lot of these, these grifters, that sort of head up aspects of the anti-vax movement here, in Australia and mainly they're unemployed Anyway they don't pay taxes, and what they've done is their ideology has bled from don't take vaccines somehow to we only like white people, hasn't it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, that's it, and as I've described it is that there was nothing really new here. It was just a reheated hot mess from what we saw in 2021. It was the same grifters, the same personalities, you know.
Speaker 1:So who was there? That was the same. Who was the same?
Speaker 2:Well, there was for the Melbourne rally. I mean, it was a lot of just the same faces, I mean, with regards to Thomas Sewell, I mean the disappointing yeah, there was no repudiation of that movement. So you know, they took the podium at Parliament on the steps and he was cheered there. Oh my God, that is. I mean they try, you know, you think of, like Monica Smith, who she just flip-flopped the entire way through.
Speaker 1:So first she says no, no, okay. So I'll just explain to everybody that's listening Monica Smith, she's Melbourne, isn't she Snarky? Is she Melbourne? That's right.
Speaker 2:I think she's escaped to Queensland, though, but she more or less doesn't have any following there. She was a prominent Melbourne sort of personality. Yeah, so what happened with Monica Smith is she?
Speaker 1:So what happened with Monica Smith, is she? During the COVID lockdowns in Melbourne, she flouted the restrictions and made a big fuss about it, and I think it was jailed, wasn't she, and then wrote a book called. Cell 13 or something.
Speaker 2:Jail Even jailed is too generous. So she was a bit more history. So she tried to start a political party called Read Night Democracy Australia.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's right Read.
Speaker 2:Night Democracy. They never filled out the paperwork correctly and never actually you know were. You know they never ran, ran. They never received a single vote technically, but it was just a merch storefront. You know there was always a t-shirt to sell you. There was always and, and so in in the last year or two, um, she's now just just selling wellness goods. You know tallow and you know bee honey.
Speaker 1:But you know, honey, what? What is she selling, tallow? Well, yeah, it's just to make natural tallow, and so oh my God, is that beef tallow because they're obsessed with bone broth?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is, it is. So she I don't I haven't watched the stories in depth, but you know something about her hair was falling out, that probably to do with stress, but she claims it's 5G radiation, but the tallows helped the hair come back and all sorts, but she claims. So she went into a bit of a and there's people that can probably explain it far better than me and the details are a bit vague. But so she was touting the restrictions, there was a long list of court appearances that she had or hadn't attended, and she got picked up by the police and she wouldn't agree to the bail conditions. Yeah, and so she was in this sort of in, in this um kind of gray area where it's like, well, if you don't agree to the bail conditions, we can't let you go like, and there was various bits and pieces.
Speaker 2:I, I think it was. One of the conditions was that she was to um, just and and this you take yourself back to to, you know, the, the pandemic where, um, you know, she was still trying to organize rallies and have mass gatherings and things. So one of the bail conditions were that she was to to stay off social media and and she just refused that, so they they put her in a holding cell for a period of time, and so she wrote a sort of a book a self-described memoir which she's tried to sell right.
Speaker 2:That's it as all great political prisoners do over the years.
Speaker 1:You know, there's her and there's Nelson Mandela right.
Speaker 2:It's very, very similar. Yeah, that's it. That's it. You know Adolf Hitler also wrote a memoir in his time in jail. So I mean it was a very poorly written. Again, we call it book. It's just, it's a loose description. Yeah, it's a self-published printout essentially. I mean there are copies of it, free copies of it, swirling around the place, if anyone's really that interested.
Speaker 1:Good thanks, but thanks for the offer.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I think, if I remember now there was like we counted that there was like 152 spelling mistakes in the first run. Yeah, yeah, yeah, so she did a big post and a recall and said well, in a way it makes the books more special because they're not perfect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love reading a book that's got bad grammar and spelling mistakes because it doesn't distract me at all. I'm like fine with it, like totally fine.
Speaker 2:Well, in this, day and age as well. There's no excuse for it, like you're writing it on Word.
Speaker 1:There's just not.
Speaker 2:It does it automatically Like it just tells you.
Speaker 2:So the book is. I mean, it's a bit of a tell-all about her life that nobody asked for. There's a lot of confessions in there that are quite ironic, but you know, mind you, she was just completely unprepared for this. I mean, she was For what? For these marches. You know, two years ago she was at front and centre of these sorts of things. These days, you know, she just flipped and flopped. She changed her mind twice about whether you should go, whether these days, you know she just flipped and flopped, she changed her mind twice about whether you should go, whether you shouldn't go.
Speaker 2:She's claiming that everyone was booing the Nazis when they were there and she came out with some rationalisation around. You know, if you're at a restaurant and Nazis are at the restaurant, you don't leave the restaurant. You know it's like what are you on about? And so she was trying to make this analogy that just because Nazis are there, it doesn't mean that you're a Nazi.
Speaker 2:It's like no if you stand shoulder to shoulder with Nazis, you need to repudiate that, and if they've latched on to your movement, the movement should have overwhelmingly rejected that, and they just didn't.
Speaker 1:They don't, they don't, no, that's it. I think there's a tacit sorry, I think there's a tacit because the anti-vax ideology has sort of lost its verve, really hasn't it? Because we're pretty vaccinated. We've stopped talking about um covid, even though I had it um what? Four weeks ago, and now I'm on um prednisone because I've got post-covid asthma.
Speaker 1:So it's real and it's horrible but, um, you know, we've pretty much moved on with our lives, but because I think they've lost, um, their center around, what are we going to rebel against? What can we say is impacting negatively on our lives? Because it can't just be vaxxers. So now they've had to move on to brown people. I don't know what is that.
Speaker 2:Well, they will promise the world by now. You know, back in 2021 or in the early days of the pandemic, they were told that anyone who took the vaccine would be dead by now, and they'd be the undisputed master race.
Speaker 1:And so we've all moved on. Pure blood, yeah, that's it.
Speaker 2:And there's been all these dog whistles in the movement from the get-go, like you know the pure blood and you know then that's just morphed into you know all sorts. And, as we discussed in the previous podcast, the NSN was saying that they've recruited half of their members from the quote-unquote freedom movement.
Speaker 1:They don't call themselves the anti-vaxxer movement. Hang on MSN, which is the what.
Speaker 2:Sorry, National Socialist Network, NFM.
Speaker 1:So the Nazis have recruited how much of their base from the free. So the freedom fighters were originally the anti-vaxxers and now that's right the nazis have have have recruited how? What percentage from this freedom anti-vax movement have they now? Well, they're.
Speaker 2:They're saying half, wow, so half of all their members. So it's an easy pivot for a lot, because it's all conspiracy. It's almost like the gateway drug. It's, you know, as we discussed previously, like with all of these nefarious you know Jewish-sounding names.
Speaker 1:You know, behind the vaccine rollout and various you know health organisations, it just, you know, dances right into this Nazi ideology because it's like, well, yeah, so it's um and let's not forget, in the middle of this discussion that we had in the prior week the most devastating shooting of two, you know, policemen who were just going about their business. I think one was one week off retiring.
Speaker 1:I heard that's right, and they were shot by a sovereign citizen who's now been on the run for a week, is that right? Seven days Snarky, is that correct?
Speaker 2:Police suspect. He's been sheltered and now I mean he already has been revered by certain fringe groups within. You know, I think what's shocked me in the last sort of week is the. I thought there were maybe some common ground that normies such as us and anti-vaxxers could agree on, and that from there, you know, I thought there'd be more repudiation of these Nazis, for example at this march. I also thought that the majority would also agree that, yeah, cop killers aren't great and this Desi guy doesn't represent. You know that thirst. There was a little bit of no, no, he's not really a sovereign citizen. Represent. You know, there's that. First there was a little bit of no, no, he's not really a sovereign citizen. Even monica smith, speaking of she, she claimed that, um, you know, her interpretation of sovereign citizens is they're peaceful and they wouldn't do that. So there was a little bit of that.
Speaker 2:But now there's, there are people with signs at at the protests yeah around the country that said, uh, desi, freeman and, and almost with a that, that sort of obama-esque type, if you remember.
Speaker 1:Back to I do, I do, I saw the sign. Yeah, just to explain to our overseas visitors who aren't up on our news. So this sovereign citizen we've discussed prior that sovereign citizens believe that the government is there's just overreach and and and they have their own laws and it's the, it's just the pseudo law is just the maddest thing. Anyway, this fellow was a sovereign citizen, um, and two police had come on and on, I think, to arrest him on an old um charge of something. Do you remember what?
Speaker 2:it was snarky I'm not sure what.
Speaker 1:The initial anyway doesn't matter, and he's killed them he's killed them and now he's escaped, and what has happened to snarky's point is, instead of people going well, that's disgusting um, we don't want to align ourselves with that what's happened is he's now being hero worshipped and it's this. It is sort of um. Immediately they were like oh, oh, look, main street media, mainstream media, calling him the sovereign citizen. He was self-described a sovereign citizen. It's not like. Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 2:yeah, that's it, it'd be. It'd be, I mean, even for for our American friends. I mean, even when you have these tragic incidences in the US, at least you have the National Rifle Association like pretend to be shocked for a bit about it and say, hey, let's just sort of let's wait to see what happened. But there wasn't even that, and it'd be the equivalent. I mean, we've got Ned Kelly in Australia. Loosely speaking, he's sort of like a Bonnie and Clyde type kind of character Ned Kelly.
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Like Ned Kelly, so you've got people already saying well, you know, they said these things about Ned Kelly at the time and it's like no, he's not a Ned Kelly and Ned Kelly was a criminal too.
Speaker 2:So that's not necessarily the accolade they think it is, but I won't get into that. But it would be like the equivalent of the us now if someone just gunning down several cops and people, hero worshipping them and referring to them as the, as you know, as the clide of you know, all the, all, the uh, what is it? Um, what's that? Billy the Kid you know it's probably a better example. Yeah, and it's just. What planet are you guys on?
Speaker 1:And it's a very good question. What planet are they on, and what sort of mental gymnastics would you have to go through? And turn somebody who's clearly a violent criminal into a hero, because they really like the fact that he turned his back on a judge. They like that.
Speaker 2:I think that's great, well, and this is where I think that some of these people are just living in a movie in their head where we had one chap come to the page to tell us that Desi Freeman will be treated like a hero in prison because cop killers are heroes. Now I won't get too into it, but I know people that have been, have stayed at Her Majesty's Pleasure and they've said to me that that cop killers are not well regarded because it's the screws, for one will just turn to blind eyes to anyone who's sort of hurt their own, and everyone wants to be the one to sort of get the guy with the most notoriety. So I mean they seem to think that he'll be a hero in prison if he does get captured alive. So yeah, what I mean is it's not a Scorsese film where they think he's going to go to prison and live it up large because he's a, you know, because cop killers are liked there. It's not the case.
Speaker 1:I don't think that's very relevant but I thought it was telling about the narrative in their head. No, it's very, very telling, yeah, and I think even the mention of the Scorsese film. I think there's such a sort of romanticising of these deeply ordinary violent acts that just speaks so eloquently of a desire to be a part of something special, part of something epic. And it's not epic, it's so ordinary and sad and tawdry. And yet the desire just to be different and to belong to a group that's like just not normal, like we're just, we're just sheep. Right, you and I in our cohort we're just, but they're not, they're different. And when it comes back to that notion of the bias that we have around belonging, you know they want to belong to something and these are the people.
Speaker 2:They think that it can actually see the truth and in their mind he's a hero and what's strange with this bunch is that each, each and every one of them is convinced that they're the protagonist in, in the resistance oh, what do you mean by that?
Speaker 2:they're so well that they, they all see them themselves as, as this independent sort of own war. But they're also clinging desperately. They just want someone or anyone to just tell them what to do or where to march. They're very compliant in that sense, like, come only where this flag and come to this area. But that was, I mean, in the pandemic we saw. They were so desperate for, um, for political leadership, or even an authority, uh, in an authoritative sense. You know, at one point they were calling for the police, like you know, please, turn, turn with us, you know, help, help us. You know, and it was just this, um were they? It was a, they were, yeah, it was, it was very perfect I've never heard that.
Speaker 1:what were they doing? That that's extraordinary, yeah, so they were saying.
Speaker 2:I mean even at one point. So Reignite Democracy, which was the political group that was never registered.
Speaker 1:Just for everybody, the name of that is Reignite Democracy Australia. Is that right?
Speaker 2:Australia. That's correct. They've dropped the Australia bit recently because they're trying to appeal to a more internet because they know it's basically it's dead here. So they want to appeal more to to overseas audiences. But beware overseas audiences.
Speaker 1:Beware, it's coming, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 2:So what, what, what? They did a campaign where they were willing to pay the salary of any police officers that would come forward or would would quote unquote change sides and and it was sort of like they had this sort of Spartacus kind of grandeur where they thought we just need a few police to turn around and say no, and then the rest will fall. You know, they're all on our sides and they're all our friends and all this sort of stuff. So it's been a really. I think it. I mean it's been splintering for a long time the cooker movement, but you've got sort of a cohort of the cooker movement. So you've got a few of the other people that are horrified that a police officer has been killed but their own audience has just gone. They're just getting ratioed by their own audience when they try to sort of do the reasonable thing.
Speaker 1:So you're saying some of them actually have an ethical response to it, but that their followers want them to be?
Speaker 2:They're flopped on that response because they've just been ratioed by their own audience.
Speaker 1:And what do you mean by ratioed by their own audience?
Speaker 2:Oh, just piled on. So in the comments, you know, be just overwhelmingly like you've got, you know, just told why they're wrong. Oh my, and so they are just servants of their audience to an extent. And what do they want?
Speaker 1:I mean, I think we've talked a lot about how in Australia I've had to explain this many times we call people that hold sort of conspiratorial ideas anti-vaccine. You know, there was no moon landing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. We call them cookers.
Speaker 2:And cookers.
Speaker 1:I had no idea what I was talking about. The cookers are splintered. Is that what we were talking about? I distracted myself. What were we just talking about?
Speaker 2:I'll take that out go on yeah, no, I mean generally they sort of what is it that they want? Um, yeah, what do they want is it's? It's a very good question. I don't think they necessarily know what it is they want, but it's very. You get all these like platitudes about we just want freedom and we just want to be left alone and it's like but you get all these like platitudes about we just want freedom and we just want to be left alone and it's like but you are left alone, like you're not.
Speaker 2:You know what I mean, but it's, it's not enough for them. What? What they really want, I think, is a very deep psychological, uh answer that I probably don't have oh yeah, if you could analyze, it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you could, if you could analyze it very deeply.
Speaker 2:um, you know, as I was saying before, I think that they're just wanting to be led, they're just wanting a father figure to sort of I don't want to sound like Freud, but I think this is the. There's some. They're wanting some sort of father figure to come and make everything okay because they're scared, and I think they see Trump as this sort of thing. But I think they are just a group of sad and scared people that don't that the world and whether it's globalisation, technology I think the world's just moved too fast for some and it's scary and they wish that they could go back to you know the 90s, the way it used to be, where you know like and you get these like cheesy. Back to you know the 90s, the way it used to be, where you know like and you get these like cheesy sort of you know backing it was never like that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think it's like a toothpaste commercial. I think I fire up my brain. Today. I'm on prednisone. I swear to God it does something to my brain. I was going to say something about the oh yeah, that's right.
Speaker 1:I was only saying to someone the other night about how you know he was talking about he didn't mind a bit of civil disobedience and I was like, well, we live in the most unbelievably well-run democracy. It's not perfect, but, my God, just have a look around the world and if you think that there's trouble here or if you think we're restricted, you know, go and live in a fascist country. I mean, we're so lucky we live in this beautiful, well-run country, that's. You know, things are well-regulated. We have magnificent healthcare, and yet, you know, things are well regulated. We have magnificent health care, and yet, and yet, we have cries to stop mass immigration, which doesn't exist, because apparently it's causing our housing crisis and our cost of living crisis. Mass immigration is apparently I don't know how it is, but apparently it is.
Speaker 2:Well, this is the thing I mean. There are structural issues. We are very privileged to live in an incredible country. Yeah, there are structural issues, but I think that they are pointing at the wrong issues, like sorry, they're pointing at the wrong causes. You know the I? I just think that it's. It's like that meme where it's um, you do have to an extent I'm going to sound like a bleeding heart socialist here but you do have oligarchs to an extent, whether it's mining oligarchs or thereabouts you just have rampant gouging of housing. That whole industry needs to be more regulated in terms of, you know, hyper-inflating the cost of housing with, you know, with, with the way that real estate agents are quite some, you know to, or to their own to an extent yep and so there are structural issues in terms of, you know, housing, infrastructure and things, but migrants aren't the cause of that.
Speaker 1:They're not the cause of it. And if you look at that march, they're not looking at white immigrant arrivals.
Speaker 2:They're not looking at them.
Speaker 1:They're not looking at white people who arrive here and just overstay their visas and there's plenty of them that arrive on planes for some reason, and this is where the inherent racism is just bubbling along. It's only people that don't look like them that are apparently taking their jobs and taking their houses. So it's just, it's not right. We don't have a mass immigration issue here. You know, it took a bump after COVID, the immigration, because it stopped. So there, was an upswing because there wasn't any, but it's been very, very stable.
Speaker 2:We had three years of of, and this is where it artificially seems to to be inflated, where, um and as we know, cookers love to do this they love to take a graph over a long period of time and just zoom in on a, on a very specific part of it, and so I get that we've all got busy lives and we're all doing other things, and so it's difficult to actually stop and say actually, let me look into that graph a bit more and widen it out. So we didn't have any immigration, mostly put on hold for the best part of two and a half years.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And so this has just been. Those people in waiting are now coming now. The students are starting their unis a couple of years later. You know, skilled migrants, you know are coming now. The students are starting their unis a couple of years later. You know, skilled migrants, you know are coming now. But if you actually count for that, we're currently at 2008 levels of migration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it is really difficult to immigrate to Australia. I've gone through with my wife. We've gone through the spousal visa process. The paperwork is intense. She's from a western country so to an extent it was. It was easier for her than it would be from from people from elsewhere. But even for us it was tremendously difficult. It's not an easy process. It's expensive. The border's not open. You know. This is where and I think our good friend uh um dave from the vaccination station pointed to this last week, uh, or last, during our last podcast, not necessarily about this issue, but he said he said that they take these american sound bites and try to use them here now in the. I don't understand the complexity of the southern us border. I'm not not familiar with it, but the sound bites from from conservatives there there is that the border is open and people can just march across.
Speaker 1:Yes, the border is porous.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah so people are saying that here Like we've just got an open border.
Speaker 1:No we don't, we really don't. No, we really really don't.
Speaker 2:Or in Greece you know, or on the periphery of Europe. Yeah, no, we really don't. It's really hard to come here. It's even harder to stay here once you're here and, as I pointed out last week in a meme, the government deported almost 1,600 people last year for criminal offences that were here on visas. Like they're freaking hard. They are so strict, like the government here, and rightly so.
Speaker 1:You know there's no nonsense, so I just think and yet, when I was one of the respondents on my page, when I wrote the piece about which of the healthcare workers that have taken care of various members of my family that were from Nepal or whatever, which ones?
Speaker 2:do you?
Speaker 1:want to send home. And then some cooker replied um, you've got it all wrong. I'm apparently the divisive one. I want you to know that snarky I am the problem. But anyway, apart from that, yeah, yeah um, she was like um, well, you're, you're misrepresenting this, because we just want people to assimilate, and there it is. There's the dog whistle. We're going to now talk about people who can't assimilate and people who enclave.
Speaker 1:And that's the catch cry, isn't it of let's keep it white. Because if you look at it, also, if you look at crime stats, this notion that what we don't want is criminals this is all Trump talk, right, we don't want this criminal element from entering the country. Well, you know, use your critical thinking skills. Look at the crime stats. They're pretty easy to come across. And how many of them are immigrants I mean the main perpetrators of crime in the past, I don't know. Six weeks have been white, but they don't count because they don't fit the narrative.
Speaker 1:And all we ever want is to be able to hold a coherent narrative, because then we feel like we have an identity and we know who we are, but it's so dangerous and watching them bang on about we don't want mass immigration and people who can't assimilate when it's simply not what's occurring, is so frustrating.
Speaker 2:That's right. I mean, I've been to places before and again. Australia's not all rosy and there's issues, but I feel like I've been just just a brief story from going back almost 18 years now.
Speaker 2:But, like when I was in, I was in Iraq for a period of time, um, and I was in in Kurdistan and at some point we uh, it's a bit of a um, I might, might, I might just keep it offline because because, um, just yeah, uh, but I, we drove through uh, morsel at the time, and so if you don't, if you want to see a country in a community where people segregate, like there were, there were flags, like every, every house had its own factional flag on it, as to what you know, and, and that, to me, blew my mind, because for me, um, I, I always had this. I have had this western ideal that we come from a nation state and and you were, um, you know, you're, you're, you regard yourself as you might have different heritage, but you know, I'm australian, come from, you know, and this and that, but there there wasn't really a concept of that nation state. You were your religious or ethnic or, you know, tribal identity first. And I've been to other countries in Europe where they have really struggled with the influx of migration, not because of the migrants but because they just haven't infrastructurally been set up or prepared for it. And so when you come back to Australia, it it is amazing to see how well that most migrant communities do here and there is the social mobility is broadly open to most people.
Speaker 2:I'd say it's not like. You know I'm generalising here, but you know I've got Algerian friends in France and you know they tell me that there's just generational sort of downtrodden from their perspective and you know the way that it was. You know they're not allowed to get white collar jobs. That's the way they sort of put it. You know, structurally there's issues. They put them out in areas where it's not affordable to drive into the metropolitan centres for work and that was done by design to keep them at sort of a lower level. And I'm probably talking nonsense. There's probably people thinking that that sounds rubbish, but from what I've seen around the world I've had the privilege of travelling very extensively through Africa, middle East, europe I do sense in Australia that it is an open society and the way that people have come here and enriched Australia we're very fortunate for that and the way that yeah, that's it, so I don't see these enclaves and you know.
Speaker 1:I mean, I don't see them either.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:I don't see them. And also, you were going to talk about how, because I know that there was this big um notion that there was, you know, 100,000 people in Melbourne and 50,000 people in Sydney. But you actually did the.
Speaker 2:You did the figures on how many people turned up in Melbourne well, yeah, they're not very happy with me, so I've I've just started with Melbourne, just because it's where I'm geographically comfortable and I know the boundaries, et cetera. But the Sumerial shots of the protesters in Melbourne we can maybe put a link on the podcast, but it's pretty straightforward. I mean, they all congregate outside the main train station, which is Flinders Street Station, outside the main train station, which is Flinders Street Station, and there's this brilliant app that allows you to. It's coordinated with Google Maps and so you pencil out the. You almost do it sort of side by side. So you take the aerial shot, you then pencil out the area where there's people congregating and then it gives you the square footage of how big that area is Wow, how cool.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really cool. So I've put up a screenshot on there and there's different sort of metrics as well, so you can say whether they're sort of loosely standing together, whether it's densely packed, whether it's, you know. And so the precise area and I was pretty generous, it was 4,327 square metres of space that they occupied, to be precise, and so the way that this site then defines crowded, it's two people per square metre, and so that's essentially shoulder to shoulder, got it, arms tucked side to side, there's no room to wave a flag or you know, have a vape or whatever. Have a vape, that's it. So, just mathematically speaking, if everybody was standing side to side, the most it could have fit was was 8654 people, to be exact.
Speaker 2:So unless they were standing, people were giving each other on the shoulders yeah, on the shoulders there is, there is mathematically, physically, not enough space to fit that many people and it's not as if that, oh, it's just a shot and it, you know the, the crowd, the crowd keeps going outside. It's like no, you can actually see shot. And you know the crowd keeps going outside. It's like no, you can actually see all four boundaries.
Speaker 1:You can see the edge of the crowd. Yeah, I saw it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, all four boundaries. So that's it. So I mean, lower estimates were down to like, the website sort of calculated that if it wasn't crowded necessarily, it probably was as low as like 1,800 people. I think it was more than that, but the max it could have been was just over 8,500 people, and so that sent some cookers into a spin because they need to tell themselves no, no, there was 50,000. I got a funny comment here, a screenshot from someone that says anyway, it's some disparaging stuff about me. The Melbourne turnout, I'd say, was around 300,000. So much of it there wasn't and they don't know what. Like it's so difficult to kind of when you see a crowd of people it's quite hard to calculate how many people there were. But on the ground, like I don't know, she seems to have thought it was 300,000. 300,000. You know, she seems to have thought it was 300,000. You know we all joke about cook a math Like they just can't. This is what's got them in this issue in the first place.
Speaker 1:They just cook a data they can't count. Yeah, there's no interest in actual exploration or that's right.
Speaker 2:So for them this was supposed to be the biggest turnout in Australian history Ever. Eight and a half thousand Ever ever. So the Sydney one. I'm not too. I won't hang my hat on as much on the Sydney turnout as I would the Melbourne one, but multiple broadcasters are saying it's about 8,000 as well, which is sort of on par with Melbourne. I thought Melbourne probably would have been more, to be honest, because during the pandemic, melbourne was sort of on par with Melbourne. I thought Melbourne probably would have been more, to be honest, because during the pandemic, melbourne was sort of the epicentre of a lot of the lockdowns and that's where a lot of the sort of bubbling went away.
Speaker 2:But I think nationally they're saying around about 30,000 people probably rocked up the Adelaide one. From what I've seen I've probably had that a bit wrong. Some photos I saw it just looked like maybe a few dozen, maybe 100 people. There's probably more than that. Some of the news outlets are saying that there was 15,000, but that includes the counter-protest.
Speaker 1:Ah, yeah, the people. So for all our overseas visitors, what happened was there was a counter-protest with people. You know everyone is welcome and and trying to shut it down. So if you look at it, even if it was, even if it's I don't know 30 000 and there's 27 million people live in australia. So proportionally it's not really, um, you know, statistically significant, is it?
Speaker 2:it's, it's not. I'm I'm trying to take a bit of a middle ground here, where I mean it's 0.02% thereabouts. That's not to say that we shouldn't be concerned about it.
Speaker 1:Oh no, I'm concerned.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I've had some people rightly point out that, yeah, we sort of are laughing at the cookers and their flop of a turnout, but it's, yeah, it's to be monitored and that's why we do what we do is we're pointing it out, we're showing the contradictions. I'm happy to have it. I'm currently in discussions with a chap at the moment who, like behind the scenes, where he doesn't want sort of anything published, but he went to the rally, but not as anti-immigration but because of a list of other genuine sort of cost of living grievances that he's got. And so I'm just trying to understand from his perspective that, you know, because he's saying you know, this government's ruined.
Speaker 2:So, from a policy perspective, what has precisely um impacted you? And I get that that people are doing it really really tough. Of course there is, you know, he's living, he lives in a rural community and um struggling to to make ends meet, and I get that. But it's like I and but I I sort of said well, but blaming migrants, and he's like why wasn't? I'm not blaming migrants, but it's like, but you went to an anti-migrant march.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's got big banners going anti-immigration.
Speaker 2:Yeah, whether you personally went for that reason or not, that group is using you as a number to say, hey, look at all these people that agree with us, and so I get, like you know. Like you know, it's like I get there's issues, but that, in my opinion, is we live in a democracy and that's what we do on voting day we turn out on voting day and say our piece, Now it is.
Speaker 1:It's just so lazy, it's just the laziest thinking when you live in this complex society that has so many geopolitical effects that are just, you know, day to day, and all the unhe, the, the stuff that bubbles on underneath, that we don't, can't see, you know all these factors, and yet we can stand there wrapped in a nylon flag, probably made in china. Blaming immigrants just blows my mind. And then did you see the picture of them all having yum cha afterwards?
Speaker 2:That's right. They all went and enjoyed, you know, some of the best multicultural food Melbourne has to offer. Yeah, there was, apparently the kebab shops took a hammering that night in the inner city kind of metro area Because everyone dispersed. You know, they went for yumcha, they went for banh mi, they went for, you know, to enjoy all the delights. And you know this is what I was saying, like you know, the other night, imagine Australia, and I know, like focusing on food, but I think food is an extension of culture in a lot of ways.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an extension of culture and it's like just think of Australia without all the incredible contributions from migrants, both the ones that have been here for 150 years and ones that have been here for 10 years or one year, like I'm very grateful, ones that have been here for 10 years or one year, like it's I'm very grateful. I think as a country, we should be thankful and I think most people are thankful about the people that have come here and we all sort of work and live together.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, I know it probably sounds a bit cheesy and it is why you know we do what we do and we do try and counter these spurious, ill-thought-out arguments with some data and some facts and some analytical skills. And you know the amount of white faces, I don't know. I saw maybe one Asian face in that crowd. It was really depressing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right. I mean it wasn't yeah. Yeah, there was a few, there was a. Yeah, there wasn't many. Um, there wasn't a good mix, there wasn't a good representation of the population there, that that's for sure. It was sort of late age, um, white dudes, and yeah, that was pretty much it. I didn't see any other gherkins in the crowd. No green.
Speaker 1:There wasn't a single gherkin and I feel you were underrepresented.
Speaker 2:I was underrepresented too.
Speaker 1:Not a single gherkin, and if I were you, I'd be holding a gherkin rally Like free the gherkin.
Speaker 2:That's it Someone.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's it Someone did say we should have a counter pickle protest with people.
Speaker 2:I'd come to that. Yeah, we might organise that and see how many people we can get.
Speaker 1:I would definitely dress up as a pickle.
Speaker 2:I'll tell you what I did see. It was hilarious. I have to track it down. I don't know if it was from a counter protest or not, but I thought absolute legends. Someone had a dim sim flag. Yes, it was just a flag of like two fried dim sims. Love it. Um, I need to. I, I can't stop thinking about it, um it is rent free in my head at the moment I'll text it to you.
Speaker 2:Uh, again, I'm just like I don't know, I'm trying to like, maybe overthink it, like, oh, maybe it's a representation of, like you know, chinese contribution to australian culture, or so I don't know why it was there, but I love it.
Speaker 1:That's just so random. How funny.
Speaker 2:That's it, that's it, so yeah.
Speaker 1:Snarky Gherkin. I think that we have done quite well today. We've had a bit of a chat about this rally and what it means for us and why we do what we do, and I am very confident that things are going to occur in the next few weeks in Cookerland that are going to mean that you and I are going to have to chat again. What do you reckon?
Speaker 2:I think so. I'd be keen to chat more if you'll have me oh, I'll have you.
Speaker 1:I really like it. Yeah, maybe.
Speaker 2:I get some other friends on. Definitely Dave from Vaccination Station. Yeah, I really liked Dave. He was good. I'd like to hear from him more. Yeah, we want to hear more from him.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've had some, as you know. I've had some really good American and Canadian sceptics on and they were also awesome. So we are the community, we're doing the best we can to fight the disinformation and just to just to tamp down this, this divisive notion that you know there's a portion of the population that is less, because that that to me just is just so awful. And I I was, um, I think I wrote in my piece that I'd spent the day in a medical office with this fantastic surgeon who was Indian, and he rang me that night and gave me some information and he was like awesome. And I thought and you're going to turn on the television and see these idiots, you know, roaming around with flags and there's sunglasses on the back of their head. What is that sunglasses on the back of the head thing? What is that?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think they're. Yeah, I don't know. I've got theories.
Speaker 1:What is your theory? I want it. I want the theory. What is it? Is it like a fly, like another set of eyes?
Speaker 2:I don't know. I think I don't know if they're trying to protect their cortex or something from critical thoughts. I don't know. I don't get the sunglasses on the back of the head, sort of thing, I don't get it, but it's prevalent.
Speaker 1:Attached generally by a lurid sort of one of those hot yellow or hot green lurid nylon sort of attachments, aren't they Sort of?
Speaker 2:strings at the front.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's not a good look.
Speaker 2:That's right, that's right. Yeah, it's not great. At least they make themselves easy to spot, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, they do. So I think next time what we'll do is we'll take on the sunglasses on the back of the head prevalence and see if we can I'll do some homework. It's homework, that is your assignment and I have set that for you, and thank you so much for coming on. Snarky, it is always a pleasure to talk to you my absolute pleasure, and we will undoubtedly talk again soon. So thank you, so so much.
Speaker 2:Thank you, no worries, take care Bye. Thank you, thank you so much. Thank you, no worries, take care Bye.
Speaker 1:Thank you. Thank you so much, listeners. Wherever you are in the world, stay safe, stay well and keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later.
Speaker 1:Thanks for tuning in to why Smart Women with me, annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women? See you later.
Speaker 1:This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
