Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Could a Metaphor Save your Sanity?
Ever caught yourself saying you're "banging your head against a brick wall" or "can't get your head above the parapet"? These aren't just figures of speech—they're powerful mental frameworks that might be intensifying your anxiety without you realizing it.
Wellness CuratedWellness Curated is a go-to resource for anyone who wants to improve their quality of life
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That's Yo-Yo drinking God. She's so sort of immutable, isn't she? Look at her and she'll just keep going.
Speaker 2:She's noisy though.
Speaker 1:She's a noisy drinker. Thank you, yo-yo. You are listening to the why Smart Women podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships, career choices, finances, to faux fur jackets and kale smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones.
Speaker 1:I'm your host, annie McCubbin, and, as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own share of really bad decisions. Not my husband, I don't mean him, though. I did go through some shockers to find him, and I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be Aboriginal land. Well, hello smart women and welcome back to the why Smart Women podcast. Today is Monday, the 8th of September, and here on the northern beaches in Sydney, new South Wales, australia, spring has sprung. So we have emerged from a fairly rancid winter into a very pleasant spring day. It's like 27 degrees outside and everybody's got a smile on their dial. It just makes everybody feel so much better.
Speaker 2:Hello David, a rancid, winter.
Speaker 1:Well, okay.
Speaker 2:A rancid winter, it was rank.
Speaker 1:It was a bit rank. It was very wet and freezing for. Sydney, because people think nothing happens in Sydney. You know, like it's just always temperate. It wasn't, it was cold.
Speaker 2:Okay, cold and windy. Cold and windy. Cold and windy and rancid. Interesting use of um, yeah, writers also. I wish.
Speaker 1:I wish that listeners could see Ryder who's I don't know. He's been running around in the sunshine and now he's exhausted tremendously relaxed he's tremendously relaxed and lying on the couch. So um I thought what thank you for joining me, david.
Speaker 2:I'm delighted to be, here, thank you. Thank you for thank you for inviting me back. I don't take it for granted.
Speaker 1:No, don't, because there's tell you what? There's that many people that want to come on the podcast.
Speaker 1:Now there's a queue yeah it's not really, but there's some people want to come in the podcast. It's good. So, um, I don't know about you, but I have found myself, um, really disturbed. Every time I open up my phone, every time I put the news on, I just I feel, I find myself feeling really, yeah, defeated by what's going on around the world. I'm very I mean, obviously, gaza is very distressing, um, ukraine is very distressing, trump is very distressing. You know, I've opened up a thing three days ago which said you know, virtually america, under the, under the guidance of RFK, they're just cancelling vaccines.
Speaker 2:Well, they're cancelling the vaccine mandate, which is just mental.
Speaker 1:So then there's going to be a spike in deaths and it's going to be appalling. And he's just, you know, he's wandering around airports, apparently RFK, talking about the fact that children now look like they have mitochondrial, some sort of mitochondrial inflammation in their faces, which apparently, according to him, is to do with being vaccinated and having food dyes. It's so mental, it's mental, it's mental.
Speaker 2:It's probably because they're eating the standard American diet, which just has far too many calories in it and soda.
Speaker 1:Well, I don't know what it is, but it's certainly you know. Of course they've got a dreadful diet and anyway all these grifters do, including RFK, is they just try and replace scientifically proven vaccines and other medications with cooker crap. So they just sell ivermectin or they sell, you know, he's got some product, he's got a whole, you know, a bank of products to sell.
Speaker 2:They're just total rubbish and this is distressing you at the moment.
Speaker 1:That's distressing me, trump's distressing me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's like a parade of bad things that are going on.
Speaker 1:There's just a parade and I feel in the face of the parade of bad things, I feel particularly powerless.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And even though, I try and do my little bit with the podcast. Yeah, yeah, which is my little, my tiktoks, and I'm writing a book.
Speaker 2:I try and do my bit, but I do feel a bit on the powerless end of things. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, look, can I just, um, you know, I, I, I don't want to be the mansplainer in residence here, but I've got, I've just got a suggestion and just a bit of a reframe, sure, sure.
Speaker 1:I'd like a reframe.
Speaker 2:Around the way that you're processing the stuff that's being sent to you through the various media channels. That is distressing you.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:And there's two thoughts.
Speaker 1:Yes.
Speaker 2:One thought is that commercial media exists to make money. It makes money by attracting attention and we know that there's a cognitive bias in the human brain that you are much more likely a bias towards being drawn towards the negative news then that is most likely to keep us safe. Yes.
Speaker 1:So it's a brain bias to do with survival? Yes, that's right. That's why I mean I asked you that question. It was rhetorical. I actually knew why. You knew that. I knew, I let you say it though, and then thank you for giving me the opportunity to articulate.
Speaker 2:Tell me if you knew this one as well.
Speaker 1:Go, go, go Okay.
Speaker 2:So, if our brains are naturally biased towards moving, you know being attracted to negative news and that kept us safe as we evolved, we evolved in groups that were very, very small. I mean, you know, know, we only spoke to, you know between. You know 30 and and 90 dunbar's number.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, dunbar's up.
Speaker 2:So whether it was 30, 60 or 90, the size of the tribe was was manageable and when you got bad news, it was just the bad news that came from, say, 60 people so people so so-and-so, like Uncle Terry had been eaten by a saber-toothed tiger. Right.
Speaker 1:Were they alive at the same time saber-toothed people.
Speaker 2:Well, it depends on what kind of humanoids you're talking about. There were humanoids when there were saber-toothed tigers. Right, but they were early humanoids closer to your Australopithecus.
Speaker 1:Still Unclery got eaten by bad news bad news or bad news, you know. You know we've run out of grain run out of grain, you know, or, and the tribe next door had to attack us. Yeah, yeah, to get our grain.
Speaker 2:Okay, all right, so so. So bad news came up and it was good to be vigilant about that, but the bad news came from a relatively small source of channels. Now, human beings are connected to every bad thing that happened everywhere in the world.
Speaker 1:Everywhere in the world, everywhere in the world.
Speaker 2:If you want to search about something bad that happened in South America or deepest, darkest Africa or Asia, you will find it.
Speaker 1:And can I say one more thing about that?
Speaker 2:Yes, They'll find it.
Speaker 1:And can I say one more thing about that? Yes, that to Michael Marshall's point, who is the president of the Merseyside Skeptics who I had on a few weeks ago. That let's just say. You know Tom has joined an anti-vax group. Right. If back in the old days, days to your group size issue or point, he would have gone to the pub and gone. Vaccines cause autism and the moon landing didn't happen. The earth is flat yes and then john would have gone give it a rest. What did I call the first guy tom?
Speaker 2:tom give it a rest. Tom give it, give it a rest give it a Tom. Because no one in the pub believes in this fanciful nonsense.
Speaker 1:That's right, because it's out there, it's out there.
Speaker 2:But the thing is that what if Tom was able to connect to a much larger sample group? And Tom can, he can.
Speaker 1:So Tom walks out of the pub where he's had a beer with who. Who did I call the second guy John?
Speaker 2:John.
Speaker 1:John, sorry Everyone, I'm on steroids for asthma. It's screwed up my brain Anyway, but they've been very good and they've cured my cough Anyway. Is it helping with your bench pressing. I'm like so ripped.
Speaker 2:Hang on which part of you is ripped?
Speaker 1:No you should, I'm like.
Speaker 2:The concealed bit. I'm like Schwarzenegger now You're like who?
Speaker 1:Is that right?
Speaker 2:No, I want to hear you say it again.
Speaker 1:Schwarzenegger. What's his name?
Speaker 2:Arnold I'm like Arnold. Arnold, John, Tom and Uncle Tim.
Speaker 1:I walk down the road now and people are like God, look at her. She's incredibly ripped and it's because's because? Well, in this morning I'll just tell you about that you're taking asthma steroids I'm taking taking steroids for asthma because I've been sick for, as you know, weeks and weeks after my covid that's all right.
Speaker 2:No, that's evidence that you're coughing yeah, you are still coughing and it's you've got the post-covid yes I don't have long covered it's got post-covid anyway and that I don't have long COVID, I've just got post-COVID cough and that's fairly serious. That's really been Can.
Speaker 1:I just tell you it's been awful. I've had it for weeks and weeks and weeks. The cough only got better a couple of days ago and if I hadn't been vaccinated I think I would have ended up in hospital. It was so awful because I'm an asthmatic Sheeple. Anyway, what the steroid has done is I'm well, it agitates me, but it's fixed the cough, but I'm just incredibly strong and ripped, and this morning I did.
Speaker 2:This is actually not true but what did you do this morning?
Speaker 1:This morning I did testing at my gym. Yes, and I did. This is actually not true, but what did you do this morning? This morning, I did testing at my gym. Yes, and I did you know.
Speaker 2:Drug testing. Drug testing for you to go into the competition.
Speaker 1:I did 30 calories on the bike and I did 500 meters on the ski machine and then I had to do push presses with 12 and a half kilos in each arm, which I had to do like 30 of, and I did it and I was like a legend.
Speaker 2:And it actually had nothing to do with the asthma steroids that you were taking.
Speaker 1:Nothing.
Speaker 2:Nothing to do with it, Because the asthma steroids have actually had a fairly an unwanted side effect.
Speaker 1:Yeah, the asthma steroids on top of all the Ventolin that I've been taking. And let's just keep this absolutely in perspective if I hadn't taken the prednisone short reducing dose of steroids, I think I would still have a very, very intrusive and awful persistent cough and. I don't. It's cured it and I have managed the asthma with my other asthma drugs.
Speaker 2:But what's happened is it has made me agitated and exacerbated my anxiety and this is, I think, the really interesting thing you know that a drug designed to do something can put you into such a state where the most intimate and personal you know, the, the domain which one would expect you have maximum ownership over, you know, know how you feel and how you think that can get bumped to the side.
Speaker 1:Definitely.
Speaker 2:You can be off by a few degrees.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I mean it changes so much when you fall into thinking processes. That could be, you know, a thinking process could be inspired by what's going on in your environment, or it could simply be inspired by, or amplified by, a drug that you're taking or maybe a food that you're eating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's right, and you know it definitely. Well, we know that it affects the neurological firing off in your brain like it does, so it just goes to show how I'm grateful for it, though yeah, we know that you're grateful for it and so I mean, I guess that's not.
Speaker 2:You know the point of the. The point of the conversation is not that, but I think that where the where it's leading us to it is for us to be able to recognize that our thought processes, while we think that they're sort of pristine and um and and we've got agency over them.
Speaker 1:Oh, we don't.
Speaker 2:They can be super disrupted.
Speaker 1:Super disrupted.
Speaker 2:And they can be super enhanced as well. And so, you know, this leads us to the thing that you said you wanted to talk about this morning, which is creativity. You know, I mean doing creative exercises, doing creative disciplines. You know, be it. You know writing poetry, writing music. You're writing another book at the moment. You, you know, be it. You know writing poetry, writing music. You're writing another book at the moment, um, you know, be it playing a game, um, be a physical game, or doing a crossword or a sudoku, um, or doing an acting class or doing an acting class or doing singing classes
Speaker 1:yeah, yeah or doing painting or doing dance classes or something that is creative and I guess people would put in the artistic bucket.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah. Well, the artistic bucket, the creative Well, is that a problem? That it's in the artistic bucket?
Speaker 1:Well, I tell you the problem with the artistic bucket, because you know everybody listeners we are running adult acting classes at the moment which are just awesome and going so well.
Speaker 1:They're so fun and everyone is having the best time, and the number of people that are now taking the classes. That said to me prior to that oh, I'm not, I'm not artistic, I'm not creative, I haven't got an acting bone in my body and I'd have to contest that yeah, that notion and and I think it's right that we contest it, because people miss out on stuff.
Speaker 2:You know when they tell themselves that they can't be creative or they can't think about, you know the words that they are using in order to express what is going on for them.
Speaker 1:What do you mean by that? The words that they use?
Speaker 2:Okay. So I mean oh well, let me just finish the sentence. When people say that I can't do, that I can't think creatively or precisely about the words that I'm using, they're actually robbing themselves of the opportunity or the levers that could help them deal with difficult thought processes. So well, I mean, I'm thinking quite specifically about the anxiety.
Speaker 1:Sorry, what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2:Say that again, Well okay, what am I saying? I'm saying that when you have an injunction that says I can't be creative, I can't look with precision at the words that I'm using, the way that I'm choosing to express myself, you rob yourself of the opportunity to A number one, have greater impact and influence in the world, but also to have greater influence over your thought processes.
Speaker 1:So what do you mean by choosing the words that you use? Okay, okay.
Speaker 2:So I was talking to one of my clients the other day and she was describing a bit of frustration that some of her colleagues were behaving in a certain way and she wanted to kind of set the record straight Influence them. Yeah, she wanted to influence them by setting the record straight. Right, this is actually what's going on.
Speaker 1:Well, this is often. I would say that that is a common issue that we deal with with our clients, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that.
Speaker 1:I want to set the record straight. I want to influence. I want to have more impact.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I've got to say that, as you're saying, that it's occurring to me that sometimes I want to be able to have that impact and influence in the relationship with my spouse.
Speaker 1:Oh, do you mean me? Yeah, that took a while.
Speaker 2:I looked at Annie's face and who's he talking about? I didn't know. David had a spouse. Yeah, no, I'm talking about you. Yeah, Because sometimes it's like I'm banging my head against a brick wall. Oh, with which bit of me Trying to help you understand the way that I see something.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, yeah sure.
Speaker 2:And am I actually banging my head against a brick wall?
Speaker 1:ah, no, that's no, I'm not metaphor, that is a metaphor, that is a metaphor.
Speaker 2:So I was having a conversation with the client and saying look, you know, if, if you want to get this point across, you know, help me to understand what you're thinking, give me a metaphor. And um, she sort of stopped and she said look, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't really use metaphors my God, we use them every second.
Speaker 2:We use metaphors every second. Okay, so this was her perspective. I said what? You don't use a metaphor? And she said no, no, no, no, no, no. I said so what do you want to do here? And she said look, I just want to land the message.
Speaker 1:And I said okay.
Speaker 2:Well, what do you mean by landing a message Like is that like a spacecraft landing? Or something like that? And then she went oh my God.
Speaker 1:That's a metaphor, that's a metaphor, that's a metaphor.
Speaker 2:And so this is a great opportunity If we recognize that human beings are actually not natural processes of information. Right, we're not here to process information cleanly and clinically, aren't we? No, we live inside our language. That's why we sometimes use metaphors when we don't even know that we're using them, banging our heads against the brick wall, you know.
Speaker 1:Going on a journey. Going on a journey.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, look, I mean that's a really good. That's a really good example. When you say that you know you're going on a journey, you know we're going on a journey together. We're going on a journey in this business. When you use that metaphor and it is a metaphor because you're not necessarily, you know, strapping on a backpack and going off into the hills when you talk about going on a journey, you immediately evoke a whole lot of other elements of meaning. You know that there's a pathway, that there's a destination, you know you're moving towards something, that you're going on a journey with companions. So if you were to say that this transformation that we're doing in the business, it's going to be like a journey, then well, that's a simile, or this transformation is going to be a journey. That's a metaphor then it evokes those other things.
Speaker 1:Give me another couple.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, let me give you an antithetical one. You know, we're trapped like rats in the midst of an organizational transformation.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay, good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, hang on, can I just dial you back a bit? Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:What is what you're talking? What has the use of metaphoric language got to do with being artistic or creative?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Well, I mean when I say to somebody you know, give me a metaphor. Often the rebuttal is accompanied by the phrase look, I'm not terribly creative.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You know, I don't think in terms of metaphors. Well, that's when people are actually unconscious about the fact that they do, because we absolutely do.
Speaker 1:So reel off a few for me.
Speaker 2:Okay, reel off a few To describe what Give me a trigger, you know, to describe a relationship. Okay, you know it's a battle.
Speaker 1:You know to describe a relationship. Okay, you know it's a battle, oh, it is a battle.
Speaker 2:Every conversation is a battle and that evokes weapons. You know the desire to win. You know, possibly, the desire to either cause harm or defend yourself from harm.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:An alternative to that is every conversation. You know, every conversation is like a, you know, a collaborative cooking class.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so a list of metaphors. I mean these rhetorical devices. You know the two cams. When you use a metaphor, you say something is something. When you're using a simile, you're saying it is like something. So you know, our household at the moment is like a battle zone.
Speaker 1:Right, it's a simile.
Speaker 2:It's like a simile you know, every conversation is a battle. Every conversation is a fight. You could describe a holiday as being an absolute nightmare, or you could describe a holiday as being. You know, all my dreams come true. You could describe a person as being absolutely heroic, or you could describe them as a grub. You could describe a sentence as being soft, or you could describe a sentence as being hard, and I'll just briefly digress into this um for all our listeners, um you're talking about erin patterson.
Speaker 1:Erin patterson, the mushroom cook and everybody. It was pretty well known worldwide that um erin patterson had cooked um lunch for her in-laws. She had cooked a beef wellington beef wellington and laced it with death cat mushrooms and killed three of her relatives and another one nearly died. And she was sentenced today and she was sentenced to three life sentences, which is 33 years non-parole. And that's a good point, because you would call that a tough sentence. A hard sentence.
Speaker 2:A hard sentence. Yeah, you know, maybe you would describe it as a justifiable sentence. That's not really metaphorical. Yeah, hard and soft.
Speaker 1:Hard and soft is metaphorical.
Speaker 2:Hard and soft is metaphorical. Similarly, you know, it's like her chickens have come home to roost.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Her chickens, her chickens Don't go there, no, no we're not going to make a joke about it.
Speaker 2:No, so awful so um the cows I mean, I mean, I mean, this is the thing that the meta metaphors are powerful because they actually smuggle in that meaning. You know, they, they, they, they take a complex reality that we already understand. And when we use the metaphor, we, we invoke the other elements of complexity.
Speaker 1:Like what? Give me an example.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, I'll give you another example. Again, I want to ask you you know, what's something that I could be describing, rather than just pulling one out of thin air?
Speaker 1:Well, that was one there.
Speaker 2:Do I pull a metaphor out of thin air?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't pull a metaphor. That's of thin air. Yeah, you don't pull a metaphor, that's right. Yeah, you don't.
Speaker 2:So then it evokes yeah, yeah, so to to something magical about, you know, making something happen yeah, so to to pull this sort of, to reel this back in.
Speaker 1:So we use metaphors to smuggle meaning in with language, right. So to pull something out of thin air is a more evocative use of language than um come up with something quickly come up with something quickly, right, this is.
Speaker 2:It's just more I came up to the answer to your question very fast. No, I pulled the idea out of thin air, pulled a great solution out of thin air yeah, and is that creative? Yes, um, yes, yes, yes, it is creative. And how?
Speaker 1:does that help to reduce?
Speaker 2:it depends on the kind of metaphors that you use. So so if you notice yourself describing one of your current realities using a metaphor, you can look at that metaphor and say you know what does it evoke?
Speaker 1:Oh, okay. So let's just say, when I look at the news, I go the world is going to hell in a handbasket.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Right, the world is going to hell in a handbasket. Hell in a handbasket.
Speaker 1:It's all. We're lost, we're doomed. Climate change there's wars everywhere. You know everything's falling apart.
Speaker 2:Everything's falling apart.
Speaker 1:Everything's falling apart. The world is going to hell in a handbasket. This is not so that then, I would say, increases the use of that phrase. The use of that term would increase my sense of powerlessness and therefore increase the anxiety.
Speaker 2:Yeah, because the statement you know we're going to hell in a handbasket says that that destination hell is inevitable. We're going to hell in a handbasket rather than um, we've got spot fires all around the planet okay now.
Speaker 1:Now that's very, very interesting. That is interesting because it also brings into bold relief metaphor, bold relief. It also brings into bold relief the notion that we have the availability bias availability bias so what is most? What most? Easily comes to mind is what is going to present itself right, yes, what is not coming to my brain easily. What's?
Speaker 2:not coming to your brain easily are the people who are resisting those, those spot fires, those conflicts. You know, the amazing doctors who are working in the hospitals in Gaza, the community organizers who are trying to safeguard American democracy.
Speaker 1:You know, in the face of the doctors at the Center for Disease Control in America who are fighting back against RFK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's right, that's right.
Speaker 1:So my brain, and it goes back to that bias if we look to the negative, because it's a redundant bias, but we feel it's going to keep us safe if we can keep focusing on what's not working. So then I'm wrapping all that up in a metaphor that the world's going to pot. And what you're saying is well, what if the world isn't going to pot? And we know this for a fact in terms of the data, that this is in fact the safest time to be alive, except climate change is very bad, but apart from that, it is the safest time to be alive. But that's not what my brain is telling me.
Speaker 2:No, no, and that goes back to that insight that we shared right at the beginning of the program, and that is, the brain will grab onto negative stories and hang onto them more tightly, because that once upon a time kept our ancestors safe.
Speaker 1:So talk more about this metaphor business.
Speaker 2:Okay, so here's another piece of information. And there is look, there's a terrific TED Talk by a gentleman called James Geary, and this is where I first started to think. You know, think about this, the point that he makes in his talk. Again, yeah, james Geary metaphor. Have a look at it if you're interested.
Speaker 1:We'll put that in the show notes.
Speaker 2:He makes a distinction. He makes a distinction between object metaphors and agent metaphors.
Speaker 1:Oh, okay, interesting.
Speaker 2:Okay, so an object metaphor is when the force in motion has no agency. So the stock market, it just fell like a brick. Yes, Yep. But that's a simile, but it's an objective thing. There's no agency when you use that kind of rhetorical device, stock market fell like a brick. Or you could say oh, the stock market is incredibly. You know, the stock market is like an excited child at the moment. You know, one day up, the next day down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, I don't get the difference okay, so an excited child.
Speaker 2:The stock market is an excited child one day it's up one day it's down, you know it. It sort of has the sense that that there's a, there's a, there's a living creature, that there's a yeah you know that there's life in there and that life is being capricious. But, um, what do you do? What do youricious? But what do you do with an excitable child?
Speaker 1:Give them a rest. You give them a rest, you settle them down.
Speaker 2:So there is something that you can do with a child who is excited one moment and depressed the next yeah, yeah, yeah. There's nothing that you can do with a brick, because a brick just falls.
Speaker 1:Got it Clunk, clunk.
Speaker 2:If you say to yourself something like you At the moment I'm on the treadmill. Right Work at the moment is I'm on a treadmill.
Speaker 1:I'm a rat on a treadmill.
Speaker 2:Okay, I'm a rat, that's an agent, but the treadmill is an object Good, good, good Okay. So that says I have no power over the treadmill because it's just a.
Speaker 1:It's a treadmill and a treadmill will do what it does yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay. So I've got an example that might be relevant to somebody who's in the job market at the moment, and we know that the job market is becoming more and more automated. You know you get sent job ads from LinkedIn Seek. You know if you've signed up to those sorts of things and they come thick and fast and the application process is being automated in that you send your CV in, you know, with your covering letter, and many organizations are using artificial intelligence in order to vet them.
Speaker 1:Which they shouldn't be Well, because of the inbuilt biases, because of the inbuilt biases, and that's certainly the case.
Speaker 2:But somebody could feel like they are a victim to this automated machine. Right, the job market is just like a dispassionate machine at the moment.
Speaker 1:Got it.
Speaker 2:You know it's like an engine that's just cranking over and the fuel that is using is our hopes and dreams. Okay, so there's a metaphor that describes the job market and yes, I have no agency in that if it's just a machine, but you could say you could describe the job market, man. It's a bit like speed dating at the moment. You've only got a few seconds to let people know what it is that you're interested in, to find out, and then you've got to move on to the next table. So it's fast, it's pressurized. I don't enjoy speed dating and that's why I'm unhappy about it at the moment.
Speaker 1:Now, those two metaphors it's a machine, but there is it's a bit like speed dating.
Speaker 2:Where do you have more agency?
Speaker 1:Speed dating? You do, yeah, because even though you might not be enjoying the process, you know your favoured date, you know favoured date's not right. Even though you don't, even though you don't enjoy the process, you could find the perfect woman on date number 11.
Speaker 2:But you've already found the perfect woman.
Speaker 1:So how's that going to happen?
Speaker 2:You're talking about me.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I went blank then, like you did when you were talking about the spouse You're married to me and I'm perfect. So just to clarify.
Speaker 1:It can't get any better.
Speaker 2:I'm only talking about speed dating, not from personal experience, because I've heard about it, but I think that describing the job market as being a bit like speed dating is less disempowering than the job market is. Like, you know, fronting up to some cold hard machine that's just churning through my applications.
Speaker 1:If you were speed dating.
Speaker 2:If I was.
Speaker 1:What would your handle? Do you have a handle to speed dating?
Speaker 2:A handle, what do you call it what? I have a nickname, an avatar.
Speaker 1:Yeah, what would you call yourself If you were like speed dating, like Dave? What would you be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd be. I'd call myself Annie's discard. What, annie's discard?
Speaker 1:What's discard?
Speaker 2:Discard. The only way that I would be speed dating is if you discarded me.
Speaker 1:Oh, Annie's discard yeah.
Speaker 2:Oh, the discarded Dave. Yeah, discarded.
Speaker 1:Dave. Oh yeah, that sounds so appealing. Who are you dating tonight? I'm dating discarded Dave. Yeah, yeah, that sounds so appealing. Who are you dating tonight? I'm dating discarded Dave. Yeah, yeah, his wife didn't want him.
Speaker 2:Okay, but if it wasn't you, then you know if it wasn't for our history and you know if the magic wand was waved and I found myself there, yeah, yeah, what would you call yourself? I'd be the answer to your dreams.
Speaker 1:What would I be if I was speed?
Speaker 2:dating Very fast. Don't like you? Don't like you, don't like you.
Speaker 1:What's your politics? Yeah, what's your politics? Yeah, you'd be fully vaccinated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, and again you're talking about a metaphor. You know, speedy Gonzalez, speedy don't like you. Oh, speedy don't like you.
Speaker 1:Oh, speedy, don't like you. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'd be so judgmental, I'd be terrible, yeah.
Speaker 2:You don't think you'd be sort of a soft touch and very empathetic? You know, someone had large, watery eyes and was pathetic.
Speaker 1:No, no.
Speaker 2:And you'd want to go in and save them.
Speaker 1:No, no, ew, oh God. No, in fact, I did a TikTok which actually got a lot of likes, because I'm now living for the algorithm about how irritated I am, and this is an interesting metaphor.
Speaker 2:Oh is it.
Speaker 1:This is an interesting metaphor.
Speaker 2:Okay.
Speaker 1:I keep seeing women posting things online going Hi, this is just me, this is just you know, the real me, the authentic me, the messy me, um you don't like that messy me thing, do you? No, I freaking, don't like the messy me thing I'll tell you what you didn't. Let me finish.
Speaker 2:I was doing an impression.
Speaker 1:I'm sorry, I've just started all over again now. Hi, this is me, just the authentic me. I just take me as I am. I'm just, you know, I'm just a messy human. I'm like stop it, it's. It's not a good metaphor and it's gendered. It's really gendered. And then someone wrote, messaged me you sure about that? No, well, hang on, wait, stand by. Someone messaged me and said that she has friends, male friends, that refer to themselves as messy because they're ADHD. But the context is different. The context is different. Men, generally speaking, aren't going Hi, it's Harold here, I'm just a messy human. They don't do it. Do you know why they don't do it? Because it's a status issue and it's just more ways for women not to take up more space and to drop status.
Speaker 2:Okay, I don't like it.
Speaker 1:Stop saying it, get on with it.
Speaker 2:All right, so I'm not messy.
Speaker 1:You are very messy, oh what, but it's in the context of the physical environment. Okay, you're not going hi.
Speaker 2:I'm discarded, dave. I'd be a mess if you discarded me.
Speaker 1:You would be.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, oh.
Speaker 1:God, it'd be so bad. Yeah, yeah, just hope it doesn't happen, David, Okay. I'm hoping Go on, keep going, keep going, keep going. You talk good on the metaphor thing yeah, okay, um, should we talk about?
Speaker 2:um? I mean, I I think the best thing to do is for people to be exploring these metaphors on their own oh, that's a good idea, and I've just got a few suggestions well, um, it's a bit. It's a bit like playing metaphor bingo. Um, once you start to be aware of the metaphors that you are using, did you notice that I threw one in there as well? Bingo.
Speaker 1:Metaphor bingo. I love it, Metaphor bingo.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when you hear yourself using a metaphor, just point it out to yourself. You know that's a metaphor and that's interesting. It's an empowering metaphor. You know I'm the master of my own domain.
Speaker 1:What about? I devour books, which I do.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you do devour books.
Speaker 1:But I don't really, I don't eat them. You don't really eat them, but it does invoke A voracious appetite.
Speaker 2:Yeah, an appetite and an enjoyment. You know, there's a hedonistic enjoyment you know with you and books. Yeah, true you know, you devour them. You don't just read them, you devour them.
Speaker 1:Go on.
Speaker 2:So that's one. Just notice the metaphors that you are using. Another thing that you could do is that you could flip the metaphor Okay, so notice if a metaphor that you're using to describe your life is empowering or whether it's disempowering.
Speaker 1:Okay. So when I think about me and getting very anxious about things I say to myself I'm having, I do say this. I just realized it. I'm having trouble getting my head above the parapet.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's not good. That does not help me.
Speaker 2:You're having trouble getting your head above the parapet. This does not help me, because you don't like heights anyway.
Speaker 1:You wouldn't want your head to be above the parapet. Yeah, isn't that funny. It makes me feel quite like it also feels like I've got my my hands on this. What are the? The stone things called at the top of a castle the cannulations yeah that I've got my hands there and I'm I'm trying to see over the top and I can't. And it's not an empowering metaphor, and I've just realized that. Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I mean, that's the next thing that you can do is that you can actually, quite consciously, craft your own guiding metaphor, and what would that be Okay? So let's flip. Can't Get my Head Above the Parapet.
Speaker 1:Which invokes a real struggle.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, do you know what else it evokes. What.
Speaker 1:A real struggle and I have no sight into the future.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 1:I'm stuck behind a wall.
Speaker 2:So literally describe what's actually happening when you say can't get my head above the parapet, yeah, so you're feeling overwhelmed by, overwhelmed by stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:And then I find on anybody else who um experiences anxiety very, very common um. I find that things get um blended uh-huh yeah. So there's not an issue, it's just like this sort of melange of issues that go blah, yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:So I could unsuccessfully try and flip that metaphor by saying it's a bit like you're being smashed by the tides.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:Wave upon wave upon wave.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Now that's an object metaphor, because waves don't have agency. Or you could say you know, I've got so many voices in my head at the moment demanding for things you know, like children in a preschool. Yeah, lots of voices all demanding things at the same time, yeah um and um. Yeah, it's it, it's wearing me down yeah does that accurately describe what's going on for you at the moment?
Speaker 1:it's not bad yeah okay, and so but how do I, how do I ameliorate that?
Speaker 2:well, because that's an object metaphor. You can have a conversation with somebody and say deal with one voice at a time, ah, got it you know, just have one conversation, so I've got a whole lot of children tugging at my skirt yeah, yeah, all demanding things, miss, miss, miss, demanding your attention miss.
Speaker 1:I need to go to the toilet. Miss, I need a drink.
Speaker 2:Miss okay, so you're still in metaphor land. What are you referring to? You've got all of these voices in your head saying that you have to do what you know. You've got to get complete, complete things, complete tasks.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah um, yeah, yeah, and also fix things that I can't fix. Yeah, yeah, okay, like we've got illness in the family, I can't fix that okay, all right.
Speaker 2:So the thing is that if you, if you're dealing with voices as opposed to waves, you can do dialogue with a voice or the brick wall of the castle okay, you can't do dialogue with a brick wall of the castle castle is immutable, waves are going to keep coming, but a voice. I've got all of these voices. It still kind of captures the, the freneticism, the you know the anxiety, but voices you can do dialogue with them and you can deal with them one at a time I can and I can, I can start to distinguish.
Speaker 1:Actually, that's really good, that's very helpful, you know which is the loudest voice?
Speaker 2:it's this one. Okay, let's deal with one voice at a time. Once we've dealt with that one, what's the second loudest voice? So, so, so, that's good, that's really good so being able to flip your metaphors can put you in a place where you do have greater agency and look, if you really want to explore this in terms of having something that will enhance your quality of life, you can think about your guiding metaphor. So what is your life about? I'm fighting the good fight at the moment.
Speaker 1:I am. Yeah, there you go. I do feel that, with my particular quest to fight disinformation, I do feel quite purposeful. Yeah, it's not like I feel I don't feel powerless in that regard.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:I feel powerless to fight. You know, people comment on a post and start telling me that Fauci's a criminal. I'm like oh God, I want to die Idiot.
Speaker 2:Well, you've made me think of the Amnesty International slug line which is which is? It is better to light a candle than to yell at the darkness. So to yell at the darkness, the darkness again. The darkness is an object, the darkness does not have agency. To yell at the darkness, the darkness again. The darkness is an object, the darkness does not have agency. To yell at the darkness is pointless. But what can you do?
Speaker 1:you can light a candle which has agency, which has agency you know you're lighting a candle, but it's the okay. The candle itself doesn't have agency but your action of lighting it does you're lighting the candle and the people who see the light are agentic.
Speaker 2:You know they are people.
Speaker 1:Agentic is a good word, David.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, I mean, if you can choose an agentic metaphor, if you want to have one that is, you know, summarizing your life, then you will necessarily have more power in it. And then, I guess, to really take this into action with other people, you can use your metaphors as persuasion. So if you are trying to persuade your colleagues, or your spouse, or the person that you've met during speed dating, you can drop in a single resonant metaphor to anchor in your audience's memory. And you can do that by keeping it concrete, keeping it visual, keeping it reliable. So, you know, this project is actually our bridge to the future. Okay, you know, this data that we're using is our compass yeah those are object metaphors and in this instance, instance, they work.
Speaker 1:Very interesting, isn't it? I even think in this we've been talking for maybe 40 minutes and I feel quite good and quite reframed. If any listeners can hear the dogs barking, I'd like you to know it's not ours because, they're behaving perfectly. Ryder and Yo-Yo are perfect. Behaving perfectly. Rider and yo-yo are perfect. Um, it's an interesting notion of how do we, how do we deal with that's yo-yo drinking god, she's so sort of immutable, isn't she look at her and she'll just keep going she's noisy though she's a noisy drinker.
Speaker 1:Thank you, yo-yo. It really makes you think about how do we deal with things like anxiety. You know, all we've done is do a reframe and look at our thinking behind it. Is there any need endlessly for people to endlessly trawl about inside their childhoods? I don't think so anymore?
Speaker 2:Oh yeah? Well, I don't think so. There's the big leap.
Speaker 1:There's the big leap. Anyway, it helps me.
Speaker 2:You're going to have to do a show on emotional memory.
Speaker 1:I am.
Speaker 2:Because, I mean, I think emotional memory has actually been validated, but what hasn't been validated is that emotional memory is the same for everybody.
Speaker 1:That's right and there's a whole notion of trauma, but we're not going to get onto that now. Before I say this last thing, this is time out. How do I pronounce Mercury Psyllacus? Is it Psyllacus? Just tell me the pronunciation. I would hate to get that wrong.
Speaker 2:I think the P is silent.
Speaker 1:So Salicus, Salicus Thank you, mercury Salicus. Thank you All right. Well, I think that was very interesting, David.
Speaker 2:Oh, you've got more, no look.
Speaker 1:I was just going to give you a More discarded David.
Speaker 2:I was going to give you a summation, if you wanted go do it okay we began talking about creativity and that some people have an injunction that they're not necessarily creative what do you mean by injunction? An injunction. Well, um, they say to themselves I'm not creative got it, thank you I'm not creative and therefore I can't use metaphors.
Speaker 2:but actually the truth is that metaphors aren't tricks. They are how human beings naturally think, and philosophers from Aristotle's day have argued that metaphors constitute thought itself. If we pay attention to them, you're not just polishing your language. You are taking hold of the levers that create meaning for you and for the people that you communicate with. If you want more agency in how you speak and how you persuade, and how you make sense of the world and your place in it, well, start with the metaphors that are already in your mouth.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow, I should invite you back. Oh, did that make sense? Discarded David. Okay, thank you very. Oh, did that make sense? Discarded David. Okay, thank you very much for that, david. That was really good. That made a lot of sense. Oh, great, well, thank you, really good.
Speaker 1:Just before we wrap up today, we had a terrible tragedy here In DY on the Northern Beaches On Saturday, and a lovely family man, very well known Local figure, by the name of Mercury Salakis, and a lovely family man, very well-known local figure by the name of Mercury Salakis, very tragically was taken by a shark here in our waters just off the beach. So, as this is a podcast that is broadcast from DY on the northern beaches, um, david and I would like to offer our sincere condolences to his family. We're very, very sorry. So, um, thank you very much for tuning in listeners. Um, all you smart women out there, stay safe, stay, keep your critical thinking hats on and talk to you soon. Bye. Thanks for tuning into why? Smart Women with me.
Speaker 1:Annie McCubbin, I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. My anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, in a car park, in a bar or in your own home, please, please, respect that gut feeling.
Speaker 1:Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together, we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, annie McCubbin.
