I Don’t Wear Lululemon and Other Ways to Start a Fight

Ever tried to share a life when your partner’s best hour is your worst? We dive into the everyday friction of two people on different clocks—one of us a sunrise exerciser who thrives on routine, the other a late-day creative who hits stride when the world winds down. Along the way we challenge wellness overpromises (no, stress doesn’t cause 99% of illness), keep the real science on movement and ageing, and get honest about how habits actually form: fewer pep talks, more smart design.

Transcript

Welcome, Place & Framing the Show

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to the why smart women podcasts. The podcast is helped smart women work out why we typically make the wrong decisions and how to make better work. Wrong relationships, career choices, finances, objectives, and failed movies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make those workers. I'm your host and you're a colour, and as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own careers really bad decisions. I don't know. And I wish this podcast has been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Wise Smart Women Podcast. Today I am broadcasting from DY Sydney, New South Wales,

Setting the Day and Guest Intro

SPEAKER_00 1:04

Australia. Um, and I am here in our little studio looking out in a beautiful spring day. It's nearly the end of the first month of spring and things are really heating up here in Sydney. It's going to be delicious. Um and today I'm talking to David. Hello, David.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Hello, everybody. Hello, Annie. How are you going?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Um I'm good, thank you.

SPEAKER_01 1:24

Yes. Do you feel do you feel sort of prepared with a with a with a bee in your bonnet for this um this particular episode?

SPEAKER_00 1:33

I have no bee.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:35

There is no bee in my bonnet.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

I reckon I reckon I reckon you're better when you when when you you've got the bee in the bonnet and you know what it is.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:43

It's like what are you complaining about today?

SPEAKER_00 1:44

Alright, well, I thought we could talk about what I thought was we could talk about when the rhythm that people operate in when they're in a relationship is different.

SPEAKER_01 2:02

When what like like when two people have two different rhythms. Yes. Oh, I can see where this is headed. Yeah, okay. Where do you think it's headed?

Different Relationship Rhythms

SPEAKER_01 2:11

Going into the Well well, you know, where we where we where we tell a story about one person who has a terrific rhythm, you know? They're they're they're an honorary member of the 5 a.m. club. They rise early, they brush their teeth, they get into their Lululemon and off they go and they do a hit.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

I don't wear Lululemon.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

What?

SPEAKER_00 2:27

I do not wear Lululemon.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

Oh right, okay.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Um What are the other ridiculous um I'm not going to advertise a brand on my podcast, but I don't wear Lululemon.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

Okay, but how what made you think that I was speaking a little bit?

SPEAKER_00 2:41

Can I tell you why I don't wear Lululemon?

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Why did you wear Lululemon?

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Thanks for asking. Because there was this all this signage um outside their one of their branches, their shops, and one of the things said 99% of all illnesses is caused by stress. And that is not true. Oh, ooh, they uh stress contributes to some things, but it is not responsible for everything. It's a ridiculous thing to say. And then they're implying that um of course you could ameliorate this stress and never ever have anything wrong with you by exercising.

SPEAKER_01 3:17

Yeah, okay. And that's a that's that's a that's a distortion of a truth, isn't it? I mean, you know, um exercising is very good for you. If there was a pill that you would take that would cure all ills and it had um all the benefits of exercise, then you'd take that.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Yeah, it is an amazing thing. It's but it's the overblowing of it. It's it's the simplicity. The overpromise. It's the overpromise, it's a simplification. Um, you know,

Exercise Claims, Stress & Overpromise

SPEAKER_00 3:40

babies get terrible illnesses, people get terrible illnesses, got nothing to do with stress. So uh yes, but back to exercise.

SPEAKER_01 3:47

So this is a values-based decision. Not to wear Lululemon because they distort the stress. Yeah, it annoyed me. Okay, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 3:53

It really irritated me.

SPEAKER_01 3:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:55

It's pretty easy to irritate me with advertising. What are you looking at?

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yeah, yeah. I was just saying if there was a label on it, if I could identify what you were actually wearing.

SPEAKER_00 4:02

Um, I'm not telling you what I'm wearing. I'm not advertising it.

SPEAKER_01 4:07

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

To my millions of followers. Yes. Anyway.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

There'd be a run on the share market or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 4:14

Everybody buy everybody buying LKSD or whatever it is. I do wear LKS D. L S K D.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

Did I get that right? L S K D? What are those letters stand for? I don't know. L S K D. Anyway. Lucy in the sky with a kangaroo shaped diamond. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 4:29

Sorry, so the thing is, of course, exercise has um extraordinary impacts on all sorts of illnesses. It it it it um it helps with your cardiovascular system. It certainly can assist in delaying or actually not developing some cancers. It helps with your mental health.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, dementia as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Uh yeah, there's a lot of evidence about it.

SPEAKER_01 4:53

Um I think you you you you you you gave me a uh the you know the tip of the iceberg of a study the other day about how what is it, high intensity exercise really reduces the likelihood that you'll get.

SPEAKER_00 5:05

It reduces it by by by a percentage. A percentage. So 90%. It's not 90%. Okay, sorry. So I, as you know, um my mother developed dementia late, but still I would rather not succumb to Alzheimer's. So um, yeah,

Benefits of Exercise Without Hype

SPEAKER_00 5:24

and I exercise for a lot of reasons. But talking about exercise.

SPEAKER_01 5:27

That's right. So that's that's where we kind of started with this. We talked about the two different rhythms, and one person gets up in the morning and they get into their no-brand um exercise wear and they go off and they do a workout, and then they have lovely social time with their friends, and we know that that's good for you.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

That's really distracting me, you're email.

SPEAKER_01 5:45

Oh, okay. I'll turn it off.

SPEAKER_00 5:47

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 5:48

Yeah, we were we we we were comparing the different rhythms and routines of people, and yes, you could have a person who gets up in the morning, exercises, socializes, does all of that, then comes home and then gets gets gets to work. Yeah, that's me. That's that's a bit like you. Ah, and then um, you know, you do your work throughout the day, and then we'll have dinner, and then you know, something will happen after dinner. It it might be an episode of the gifted No, it might be an episode of the Gilded Age.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Why are you talking about the whole day? We're not talking about the whole day.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

No, we are talking about the whole day because I know what you're gonna say. You're gonna say, okay, the other person who doesn't bounce out of bed at Sparrow's Fart, um, you know, gets started a bit more slowly during the day, hits golden hour, you know, roughly between, you know, four and five in the afternoon, um, and has got plenty of energy and ideas to then work late into the night. Which is what I tend to do.

SPEAKER_02 6:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

When you go to sleep. So, um you return from the gym and you see me sort of, you know, starting my day.

SPEAKER_00 6:55

Yeah, but then you say things, you say things to me like, oh, I wish I could get up and exercise and I wish I could. Well, uh that's the bit that I'm talking about because it sort of implies that it's easy for me and difficult for you, and that and I

Morning Lark vs Night Owl

SPEAKER_00 7:18

don't know if that's true.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Well, hang hang hang on a second. If I say, gee, I wish I, you know I wish I was in your rhythm, you know? Your rhythm is really terrific, you know. I wish I I wish I could, you know, get up in the morning, have my exercise, you know, do my thing. Oh, why don't you why don't I? Okay. Because well why do you why do you think I don't?

SPEAKER_00 7:37

I'm interested. No, but no, no.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

Oh, you've you've definitely got a you've got a you've got an idea. You've got an answer that question. That's right. So that's why I am master. No, I don't want to do that. What is going on in your brain?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

I th I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

I don't think I don't think it's very flattering. I think you come into the room and go, oh, you know, you lazy loser.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

I do not walk into the room and go, you lazy loser.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

You're lazy loser, yeah. I mean, you know, that we we we we know so many stories of uh, you know, men of a certain age. Um, you know, they start to slow down a little bit, they become completely useful and just sit on the couch all day.

SPEAKER_00 8:10

Useless, not useful.

SPEAKER_01 8:12

Oh, sorry, useless, yeah. They become useless, they sit on the couch all day.

SPEAKER_00 8:15

I don't know these men.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

Oh, come on. We've we we've we've we've had anecdotal, you know, sharing.

SPEAKER_00 8:23

We've told stories about people who are No, those men were use useless in to start off with.

SPEAKER_01 8:29

Really?

SPEAKER_00 8:29

I think so.

SPEAKER_01 8:30

What do you think you think some some are some are born useless, some have uselessness thrust upon them. And um and what's the other one?

SPEAKER_00 8:39

Look, we know there's there's been this big study out in America um that said that for most women that single women um that are attempting to get back into the dating game, however m whatever method, that mostly the men are a negative influence on their life.

SPEAKER_01 8:58

Oh. What so don't bother?

SPEAKER_00 9:00

Don't bother. Well, that's what they're sort of saying that there's a lot of Well, that's what the um um burned haystack. Anybody who's online dating um should definitely look at the burned haystack method and go to um and and join them.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Is it joined uh uh burnt haystack.com?

SPEAKER_00 9:21

I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 9:21

What's the URL? How do how do people find it? I guess people could look it up.

SPEAKER_00 9:24

No, that's okay. We'll put it in the show notes. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Um burnt haystack, and what's the name of the lady?

SPEAKER_00 9:28

Burned haystack method. Yep. And um the name is Jenny, her name is Jenny Young, and she studies the applied rhetoric of the language that men use online, and by the study of the language, she ascertains whether or not they should block and burn or whether they should entertain the the um the possibility that the person's okay.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

Block and burn.

SPEAKER_00 9:54

Yeah, just get rid of them, don't go near them. And that what apparently, according to her, and I I do think it's right, you can work out if somebody is n is like not going to work, but you can't work out if somebody is. So it just takes out the people that are definitely a no-no, and you're still left trying to work out if the ones that you've sort of let through and uh entertain the possibility of whether or not they're good is another thing entirely.

SPEAKER_01 10:17

And what does Jenny Young use to evaluate whether these men are going to be a net gain or a net?

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Applied rhetoric. She analyses the language. Applied rhetoric. So she it's honestly, I won't go into it too much, but do do look it up, especially if you're doing online dating. She analyses the language and there's things that are embedded in the language that give the give the game away, you know, if they're over controlling or if they consider themselves to be a prize or whatever. Yeah. It's very, very interesting. But uh I I digress.

SPEAKER_01 10:46

Is that is that is that the gentleman who says, you know, look, I should let you know that when I get into a relationship with somebody, you know, probably my greatest weakness

Domestic Order, Mess & Bias

SPEAKER_01 10:53

is I care too much.

SPEAKER_00 10:54

Yeah, that crap.

SPEAKER_01 10:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

All right, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 10:56

Okay. Anyway.

SPEAKER_00 10:57

Note yourself, don't use that everywhere. Don't use that language. Or are you on the dating? Are you in the dating scene? I care too much. You care too much.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

Like I need that complication in my life.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

That's right. So anyway, back to this notion of different rhythms. Or different rhythms and different I mean. Yeah. So I mean look I mean you're also really messy. I mean the the We are well, we are look at where we're sitting. No, do you know what I think me messy.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

Do you know what? What you that's that's your thing. I th I think we're both equally messy, you and I. Gee, I wish this was on video. You should have seen Annie's face change then. I think that we are we have sort of equal equal sort of um uh sensibilities around the creation of mess. Uh it just happens that I happen to be very good at actually still being able to operate inside mess to do the things that need to be done. Whereas if something's not right, um, it tends to distract you and you grind to a halt. Like uh a few minutes ago you made me turn off the um uh one of the computer screens because it was distracting you. Yeah? I wish you could see Annie's face at the moment. She she's looking at me. Let me let me let me describe it. Her lips are slightly pursed, she's smiling. I don't want to smile. Her nose is all wrinkled. I'm in trouble. No, but I mean I look, I I I I I get I get your daily rhythms. You find it easy to wake up early and go to go to sleep early. And yeah, look, I don't find that easy. Um I I I want to keep going at the end of the day, so I wake up a little later, I get up a little later, I get started a little later, but you know, I pick up speed. And if I'm doing it in a room that's not, you know, perfectly tidy.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

It's not that it's not perfectly tidy, I focus on what needs to be done, and it's not a it's not a car crash.

SPEAKER_01 12:42

It's a little bit of a car crash, I guess.

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Can we go back to the bit where we're equally messy?

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah, okay, yeah. Yeah, sure.

SPEAKER_00 12:49

Thanks. That'd be great.

SPEAKER_01 12:50

I'm I'm I'm glad because because because very rarely do we ever get to go to that place where we acknowledge the fact that we're equally messy.

SPEAKER_00 12:57

What do I do? So I okay, I go to the gym. I mean, I'm sure there's other people out there that are listening to this that can relate to this. So I go to the gym, yeah, come home, and you know what I spend the next two.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Tremendously admirable. What?

SPEAKER_00 13:08

What do I when I come home and I do?

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Are you are you saying you you come and tidy up for two hours?

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:14

For two hours?

SPEAKER_00 13:16

Put the washing on, I make the bed, I clean the bathroom, I unstack the dishwasher, I restack it, I put all the clothes that you've left in the lounge room, I come and put them away.

SPEAKER_01 13:25

And and at the moment, are you amassing a uh, you know, a a a column of of all of the work that you do comparing it to mine. Well in terms of Which is negligible.

SPEAKER_00 13:34

No, no, just in terms of tidying up.

SPEAKER_01 13:35

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

I uh look, we're in a very we're in a smaller space now, right?

SPEAKER_01 13:40

Yes, yes, we are.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

And so it we should see Yo Yo's face.

SPEAKER_01 13:45

Yep, she's on my side. So she witnesses this.

SPEAKER_00 13:49

If you leave something, anything out.

SPEAKER_01 13:51

Yes, if you leave it out.

SPEAKER_00 13:52

So when you were on that call this morning, that coaching call. Yeah, yeah. Did you notice when you were when you left the very messy place that we're sitting in now, which is the studio. Yeah, yeah. But I left the studio. That the kitchen I'd restacked the dishwasher, that I'd restacked the stuff to go on there, that I'd cleaned up the that I'd cleaned up the lounge room, that I'd made the bed, that I'd put everything away.

SPEAKER_01 14:11

The room was reassuringly ordered when I when I walked back into it. That was great. Thank you for doing that.

SPEAKER_00 14:18

See, this is this is why women just want to live with other women. I swear to God.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Okay, okay, okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

So it's like me saying it's like me saying that I am equally um that that my capacity to um to get my head around tech is about the same as as yours, but I just don't do as much of it. Um that is not true. You are clearly uh eons

Gendered Labour and Visibility

SPEAKER_00 14:46

ahead of me when it comes to tech and understanding anything technical.

SPEAKER_01 14:49

Yeah, well that's I mean that's but that's because I've had more flying hours. You know, I just I'd say same as cleaning. I've spent more That's right. Now, those of you who have um you know perhaps read Annie's books um or have listened to earlier episodes um of this podcast, you'll come across this thing called the availability bias.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Um and I'm actually going to smack you on the head with that with that thing that you left on the ground that you should have put away.

SPEAKER_01 15:13

And it's twin sister, the confirmation bias. And um, you know, s some might argue, in fact, I think if if if we look closely at the at the furrows on Yo-Yo's brow at the moment, um she would she would be thinking to herself, yeah, when I'm here and Annie's not here, um David does an enormous amount of of stacking the dishwasher and unstacking the dishwasher and cleaning clothes and putting them out. Um and um generally speaking, when he does that stuff, it's invisible to Annie because all she notices is when things are left out. I don't know. I'm just telling you what Yoyo's thinking at the moment. I'm not saying that this is the truth.

SPEAKER_00 15:51

Oh my actual God.

SPEAKER_01 15:54

But that's how it works. Isn't the purpose of the podcast being able to understand what what these cognitive errors are? It's like if I empty the dishwasher, you don't notice.

SPEAKER_00 16:06

Isn't that true? So every woman that's listening to this will know that that you are using my own frameworks that I discovered against me.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

And and now you're you're gendering the conversation by saying every woman would know what?

SPEAKER_00 16:22

This it's a very gendered conversation. There is a gender difference.

SPEAKER_01 16:26

Availability bias and confirmation bias are available to all of us.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Okay. So let let's let's leave the messiness aside. Let's leave that aside. Okay, okay. And let's go back because that is clearly To the exercise thing. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 16:43

I know I'm annoying. I know for 100% I am like a really um annoying um Girl Scout mistress.

SPEAKER_01 16:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

I know that.

SPEAKER_01 16:57

Okay. Do you do you know how annoying you are?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

No, probably not.

SPEAKER_01 17:00

No, do you know how rigid you are in your own? Probably not. Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 17:03

Yeah. Well that's that's that's that's a good starting point, anyway. Thanks, David. Fuck me. The thing is, I guess it comes down to in terms of your health and wellness. I can't believe I use the word wellness. Um that in order to sort of get through the last, I don't know, three decades, we need to be eating properly and exercising and etc, etc.

Conscientiousness and Personality Change

SPEAKER_00 17:33

And um I I think you're erratic at it.

SPEAKER_01 17:37

Erratic.

SPEAKER_00 17:38

Erratic.

SPEAKER_01 17:38

Erratic. What, so I don't get into a rhythm?

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Uh no, I don't think you do, do you?

SPEAKER_01 17:43

Um Lo I look, I wouldn't say that I'm in a rhythm at the moment. I wouldn't say that I'm in the perfect rhythm at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 17:50

With other things going on at the moment, there are other things that are sort of understandable.

SPEAKER_01 17:52

But you know, look, there have been times in my life when I've woken up with the dawn, gone for a run.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

But it's rare.

SPEAKER_01 17:57

Swam across No, no, I'm saying Are you gonna talk about Manley Dam?

SPEAKER_00 18:01

Because do you know how long ago that was? Lily was four. And you were rising and swimming across Manley Dam. Lily was four, she's 28 now.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

There was a period in my life.

SPEAKER_00 18:15

Okay, well, you know, it's it's yeah. Um and you still talk about it like it was sort of Oh, I don't.

SPEAKER_01 18:21

That's this is the first time I've mentioned it in 19 years. But um I look, you know, if I if I was to say, you know, what what what's a period in my life when I was actually doing what I think you want me to do? Okay, that would be it. Look, there were times when I went to, I don't know, the gyms early in the morning. And I'm not doing it at the moment. Yeah, I know that.

SPEAKER_00 18:43

Yeah, but it's not I mean, is it I guess it it this whole thing comes down to um not who's right or wrong, but what what is behind drive and discipline and personality.

SPEAKER_01 18:59

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 19:00

And that's a much more interesting conversation.

SPEAKER_01 19:02

Okay, so if if if we're talking about a um uh a general trend around what did you say?

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Well I'm thinking the thing that so behavior is to do with the way you're what do they say? You know, we we end up with a sort of a personality type, the way you're raised, the the genetics that you bring with you and the culture you exist in, right? Yeah. So and they're now saying that actually personality is not fixed. So something like um conscientiousness, which is one of the big five in in personality, you actually can um improve on conscientiousness. That extroversion, which um unfortunately, and I'm not saying there is anything wrong with introversion because introverts are the people that actually notice what's going on because extrovert extroverts are too busy blathering on. But it's true. That's one definition.

SPEAKER_01 19:51

Yeah, but the DSM, extroversion, people who like blathering on. That's where you get your energy from. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So uh but they they're now saying that things like that they would have thought were fixed, so the big five personality, which is openness, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeability, and neuroticism, that actually you can, some of them can be, you can play around with them and increase areas that you might want to increase. Like for instance, if you're very introverted, you can put yourself, expose yourself to situations where you are more extroverted because unfortunately there is data that suggests that you ex i if you're extroverted, there are some life outcomes which are better not having a go at introverts. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:40

Um what about neuroticism? Are you saying that if someone's higher in neuroticism? You could reduce it, you can work on its own.

SPEAKER_00 20:46

You can reduce neuroticism and also for your bucket list. Yeah. And one of the big ones is conscientiousness. Um that you can actually increase your conscientiousness.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

How do you how do you define conscientiousness?

SPEAKER_00 21:02

So the quality of wishing to do one's work or duty well and thoroughly. Um and I'll put it in a sentence his conscientiousness is second to none, and he regularly makes follow-up calls to ensure everything is going well.

SPEAKER_01 21:15

There you go. He wants to he he he wants to do a good job. And also so um He wants to get a good night's sleep so that when he's working on something important, he's got all of his um faculties available to him.

SPEAKER_00 21:27

I guess. Oh, what is the so th as I just said, the big five personality traits, one of them is consciousness, and it says that the conscientiousness trait shows how thoughtful, goal-oriented, and controlled someone is. Those who are more conscientious tend to be more self-disciplined and persistent. Those who rank lower

ADHD, Dopamine and Late-Night Focus

SPEAKER_00 21:46

in conscientiousness tend to prefer spontaneity and procrastination. So that's the that's the thing about and then what they're saying. I just listened to a really interesting thing on it, that conscientiousness can be improved if you find yourself sort of erratic and more spontaneous by finding something that really matters to you and thinking, I really want to achieve that.

SPEAKER_01 22:07

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I'm curious. Yeah. Um on a scale of conscientiousness, say from one to five, you know, five being, you know, really, really keen thinking about doing a good job.

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Yeah, you would be up there on five. Okay, what where where are you? I'm on five. I think we're both I think we're both on highly conscientious. Really? Okay.

SPEAKER_01 22:23

So conscientiousness isn't something that's going to influence whether you get up in the morning and go to the gym or not. If you think that I'm conscientious and I sleep late, you know, I'm I'm basically a night owl. Yeah, that's right. That's one of the other classes.

SPEAKER_00 22:35

When you apply yourself to a job, when I apply myself to a job You're incredibly conscious.

SPEAKER_01 22:39

Yeah, like if we've got a if we have to be on site at seven o'clock in the morning, then I'll be up at five and checking the equipment and making sure that it's all of that.

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:46

Um, but yes, you know, given my druthers, I'd probably rather, you know, sleep later. And then when I get to, you know, ten thirty at night, eleven, you know, and I get interested in something, then I tend to follow that that interest. Now is that a lack of conscientiousness or am I No, I wasn't saying you Or am I being a night owl?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

No, I wasn't saying you didn't have conscientiousness. I think you're very um I think you're spontaneous. I think you follow I mean I think that's part of the ADHD profile, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 23:15

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:16

You want to find something that's interesting.

SPEAKER_01 23:17

That's right. When we run out of dopamine we go looking for something that'll trigger it.

SPEAKER_00 23:21

Yeah, that's right. So no, I don't I don't see you as having a lack of conscientiousness um at all. Not at all. Do you think I've got a lack of conscientiousness?

SPEAKER_01 23:32

Oh look Oh, you shouldn't have paused. Yeah, well no, I mean look f first answer was was was no. Um but but then then I worry that maybe I'm I'm approval seeking and I should have thought about it for a second. So conscientiousness. No, look when you're given in a situation, when you are in a situation where you have the opportunity to do the right thing, um, then absolutely you do it, and without a lot of drama. Um although that said, you know, you will like when I come back in, you you you will let me know everything that you've done, yeah, so that I notice, you know, so so that I know that it's got nothing to do with

Habit-Building vs Willpower

SPEAKER_01 24:08

conscientiousness.

SPEAKER_00 24:08

I've just I just think that women's work is undervalued.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yep, yep. Do you know that do you know that I I actually make a point of not telling you what I've just done?

SPEAKER_00 24:16

I know we've had this conversation before. Well maybe you should because I I I still think in terms of our application to inside the house that you're less focused on it. I just think that's the truth. So start telling me.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

But yeah, but then it's a little bit like, you know, I have to I have to report back to Annie that I'm being a um, you know, uh a worthy contributor to the household.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

And um Well, maybe you should. Why don't you tell me? Why would why would wh what I have to report to you? No, it's not about reporting.

SPEAKER_01 24:48

You know, you're you're starting to you know be a bit blur. What will I get a badge? I've already said that. Will I get the dishwasher scalp? Exactly. You know.

SPEAKER_00 24:55

It's no surprises there.

SPEAKER_01 24:56

So so so so maybe we can have a you know an a a note on the fridge, and every time I do something I can get a star. And when I get five stars, yeah, then I get to um be rewarded in some way. Yeah, that's true. You know, I get to have an extra Cornetto or something.

SPEAKER_00 25:08

Oh Cornetto would be nice.

SPEAKER_01 25:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:10

Um so so anyway, back to this.

SPEAKER_01 25:13

No, but is it right that that that that a relationship like ours that I should be, you know. I mean, yes, you can have your point system with your children, um, to to keep, yes, the things that they need to do around the house top of mine, but surely not not your intimate partner, not your husband or your wife. It's like if I was, you know, could you imagine what it was like if I if I was scoring you on your driving?

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:37

You wouldn't like that.

SPEAKER_00 25:38

Not a different different context.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Okay. If I was scoring you on, you know, the appropriateness of your your your your attire when you leave the house.

SPEAKER_00 25:46

Well, that's a different context. It doesn't even count. You're feeling bringing up contexts which are irrelevant.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 25:51

Um We're talking about application.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

Application, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

We're talking here about application and dispersal of domestic tasks.

SPEAKER_01 26:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:01

And general a general sense of needing order or not needing order. I need order. You do not need order.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

I like order.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

Oh, yes. Yeah, yeah. You don't need order. You can sit in this room which has got 17 layers of clothes around the camera equipment and you're fine.

Health Anxiety, Caring and Nagging

SPEAKER_01 26:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

That's true, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 26:20

Well, 17 layers.

SPEAKER_00 26:23

Don't don't don't count the layers.

SPEAKER_01 26:25

Okay, alright.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Anyway, so back to this notion of okay, okay, okay, okay, if I had all the time in the world. No, that's not right. That is not right.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

That's that's what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 26:34

No, that's not right. It is not about time. It's it's about the definitely you could go, I'll do this before I do this. But what uh but but but I'll do this before I go for a swim.

SPEAKER_01 26:46

If you say that that doesn't exist, then how do you account for the you know the the the authentic thought pattern that I have in moments where I go, gee, I'm glad I've got enough time to do this properly. You know, I'll do this tidy up in a way whereby everything is better organized than it ever was before.

SPEAKER_00 27:01

Why can't you just do it on a basic level? Why does it have to be extraordinary?

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Well, you see, the thing is that I do do it on a basic level and I just don't tell you about it. Yeah, good, that's great. Um I do do it on a basic level. Who's the one that gets distracted? And he just picked a battery up off the table and announced it. I've found that. Um Yeah. If I if I if I just get on with it and do it, then you don't notice.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

Anyway, we're not going to get anywhere with this.

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Let's go back to the notion of Unless I try and get my five stars so I can get my brown owl badge.

SPEAKER_00 27:31

Brown owl. Yeah. That's right. But I'd forgotten about brown owl. I don't know if everybody in other countries has the um the cub and girl guide system, but we did. Man.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

Did you have a brown owl?

SPEAKER_00 27:43

Yeah, yeah, and I got a lot of badges because I'm a goody two shoes.

SPEAKER_01 27:46

Because you're high on conscientiousness. Yeah, but anyway, listen. And letting people know that you've done a good job.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Anyway, David.

SPEAKER_01 27:55

Annie.

SPEAKER_00 27:56

Back to this notion of see for for me the idea of exercising and eating properly is to do with health and then living a longer life.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

Staving off dementia.

SPEAKER_00 28:09

Yeah. Good quality, longer life. And then I worry that you are erratic with your eating and your exercise and that you won't live as long.

SPEAKER_01 28:19

Yeah. Well, so do you know what do you know what they do what

Determinism vs Choice in Behaviour

SPEAKER_01 28:25

they um they think is um is uh is much more dangerous?

SPEAKER_00 28:29

Nagging people.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

Yeah, yeah. Um stress. I read somewhere the other day that 90% of all ailments are caused by stress.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

No, 99.

SPEAKER_01 28:38

Oh, 99%, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

99% are caused by no annoying people that you live with.

SPEAKER_01 28:42

I mean, if only I had something to wear when I went to the gym, you know?

SPEAKER_00 28:46

If I had if I had if I had some nice, nice, nice active wear to Oh, you could get some Lululemon, you should whip down there, right down to the mall and get some. Yep. Anyway, the point is, is having it doesn't really matter when the routine is, right? It doesn't really matter. My routine is in the morning. You could have a routine at six o'clock in the evening or three o'clock in the afternoon.

SPEAKER_01 29:12

I like the idea of having an exercise root regime around, you know, in in the evening, in the early evening.

SPEAKER_00 29:17

Yeah, but you say that, but you won't do it.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Yeah, I tell you why we don't do it, because we finish dinner and you go, and you turn to me with your large eyes and you go, what do we want to watch now?

SPEAKER_00 29:25

Well, what's the it's not early evening, that's mid evening. Early evening is six.

SPEAKER_01 29:30

Well, that's when we're having dinner, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 29:32

No, we don't eat at six, what are we? A hundred.

SPEAKER_01 29:34

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

We eat at seven.

SPEAKER_01 29:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

Go you exercise at six, there you go.

SPEAKER_01 29:38

Really?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Would you would you? Yeah. Would you not go? I just need to lie down with a heat lamp on my on my knee?

SPEAKER_01 29:45

You that is so mean. I know what you're thinking there when you say that. That that heat lamp was very soothing. You know, is it my fault that the only way that you could actually use the heat lamp was to lie down? No.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Oh my god. God.

SPEAKER_01 30:00

Anyway, I think I don't reckon you'd like it if I left the house at six o'c six o'clock every evening. I'd be fine. Would you really?

SPEAKER_00 30:07

And this is true, this is true, and may as God is my witness, may I never be hungry again. Yeah, yeah, yeah. As God is my witness, if you said to me at six o'clock in the evening, I'm gonna whip down because in our apartment ladies, we have a gym on our floor. Um and you could whip down at six o'clock and do have a swim and do some weights, I'd be fine about that. I love discipline. That sounds like a challenge. I I why did you use that voice?

SPEAKER_01 30:34

I want to know, because that's that's usually the voice that people say that.

SPEAKER_00 30:37

We're getting really hot in this room. Anyway, um listen, I guess the the thing is how much of our behaviour is is is determined and how much is in our control? And I think that is the most interesting question. How much of our behaviour is determined?

SPEAKER_01 30:56

I I think the thing that's most interesting about you going to the gym at you know six o'clock every morning is that you don't have to force yourself to do it.

SPEAKER_00 31:03

Yeah, but

Recurring Friction and Repair

SPEAKER_00 31:04

this is back to that back to the very nub of the question, isn't it? Yeah. Does that does that infer that it's easy for me because there's some predetermined um disciplined thing in my character, or have I applied myself? Um And that is very interesting, right? Okay, so let's break that down. Okay, go on.

SPEAKER_01 31:24

You you you'd say that it's relatively easy for you to do it now. Just that, just that, yeah. Okay, so right now it's relatively easy to do it. And people who will be experts in how to build a new habit, they will tell you that if you do the same thing again and again and again and again, you know, more than twenty-nine times is it, or thirty times, or something like that.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Will is a bad we know that will is a bad task forcing yourself, or will Will is a bad far out. Will is a bad taskmaster. And the other thing is Who's Will? Yeah. Will whoever he is is a lousy taskmaster. He's a lousy taskmaster.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Why is he a lousy taskmaster?

SPEAKER_00 31:58

Well, because you run out of it. You just run out of will. But habit is the way to do it. And do you know that every evening I um lay out my clothes? Did you know I do that?

SPEAKER_01 32:09

You what you lay out your your your Lululemons for the nation? Yeah, I lay it all out. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:13

So when I get up in the morning, I I'm I don't have to think. I get up and I put them on and I put the lead on the dog because he comes with me and I I have the kettle half filled so I can have tea. So it is an easy exit.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:26

But you I'm not searching for things in the cupboard.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

You've planned that the night before?

SPEAKER_00 32:30

I do.

SPEAKER_01 32:30

Okay. Yeah, so these are all good hygiene factors to build a new habit, you know, make it easy for you to do it.

SPEAKER_00 32:35

Yeah, but but then back to this notion is it was it determined in my character that it would be easy for me to do that? I don't know. Okay, it's just maybe it was.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

What kind of emotional turmoil is is created in you by the thought of not going to the gym? Terrible. You hate it. I hate it. You really hate it. It makes you antsy. Yeah. Um and so uh you you you actually do have an immediate visceral response to missing out on going to the gym. I do, that's true. And so again, it's not willpower that gets you there. You want to be there because you've built this lovely habit, and you're probably more of a lark anyway, in terms of your, you know, your biorhythms. You know, what happens with your cortisol and oh actually that could be right.

SPEAKER_00 33:12

So maybe okay, let's look at this. So maybe in the deterministic part of it, it's easier for me because I'm lackier. I'm okay to get up earlier.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

A bit lackier, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

I'm a bit lackier. And maybe I'm maybe I ha do have a lot of conscientiousness in my um in my in my personality type, so it's important to me if I say I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna do it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Maybe so maybe there is a lot of deterministic stuff, which means that it's wrong to judge somebody else who does not have that. Yeah. Stop looking, that's the worst smile you've ever given me. This was awful. Well what do you mean? I'm still sitting in this messy room.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I'm admiring you for uh for for for such a cogent train of thought.

SPEAKER_00 34:03

Oh, I'm great, aren't I? So I guess it's how long have we been talking?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Oh, about uh about 36 minutes. Does this mean that you're going to be less uh judgy when you come back in the morning?

SPEAKER_00 34:15

I'll tell you what it would make me less judgy.

SPEAKER_01 34:18

What would make you less judgy?

SPEAKER_00 34:19

If you did what you said and and would do some gym late in the day.

SPEAKER_01 34:23

Ah, because you're actually not being judgy. You are concerned about my well-being.

SPEAKER_00 34:29

I actually am. Okay. I worry that you your cardiovascular health will suffer if you don't um exercise. So that's it's more that I I worry about it.

SPEAKER_02 34:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:43

And as you know, I have I I am an anxious person, so I worry about you, and and it's the same anxiety in a way that arises in me if I don't exercise.

SPEAKER_01 34:54

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

That makes sense. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:58

However, you are messier than me.

SPEAKER_01 35:00

That was a very compelling post-rationalisation that you just gave us.

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Oh my god. Anyway, um, so here we are, ladies, discussing the things that I think affect all relationships. Um we we do know that um David is actually very good at not being gendered uh in most things. Uh I know a lot of women are in relationships where the men are. There is a lot of gender stereotyping and that can make it really difficult. And also things like um one person is more ordered than another can cause ructions in a relationship unless you can find a way to talk about it. So I think it's important to sort of out these things, have a chat about it. If you do have a different rhythm, maybe look at why that is a problem, or is it really a problem, or can you find another way around the problem so that what we're not living in is a a heightened, um, overly stressed environment, which is, as we know, it does not cause 99% of illnesses, but we don't want ongoing stress in our lives because it's not good

Closing Thoughts, Safety & CTA

SPEAKER_00 36:10

for us. Um did you want to say something, David?

SPEAKER_01 36:12

Oh, and I as you as you were just d describing that, I was thinking that uh probably most of the um most of those those those points of conflict, those po points of drama in a relationship, they do tend to be the same thing that was causing trouble yesterday and the day before and the day before and the day before.

SPEAKER_00 36:28

What is that? Well, I'm just I'm just saying Oh 100% the recurrent.

SPEAKER_01 36:33

When you've got people who are operating in different rhythms, you know, one person's a morning person, one person's an evening person, one person, you know, is messy. Is into is into a particular habit of only being able to achieve anything in a state of pristine order.

SPEAKER_00 36:46

No, not pristine order. It's not true. Just a normal amount of things.

SPEAKER_01 36:50

Oh, you're just an example, Annie, it was just a possibility. I wasn't I wasn't talking about you there.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Just a normal amount of touchy on that, aren't you? Of not having massive disarray. So, anyway, on that, smart women, thank you so much for tuning in. Um hope you're all having a reasonably good day, even a very good day, wherever you are in the world.

SPEAKER_01 37:12

Um That was very cautious, wasn't it? You couldn't just say have a great day.

SPEAKER_00 37:16

Okay, well, you know, because what if someone's having an awful time and then someone says have a good day?

SPEAKER_01 37:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

And you're like, Well, I'm not having a good day, and then it reminds you that you're not having a good day. So if you're not having an awesome day, that's also fine. And I hope it improves because everyone's dealing with something right. So, um, yeah, that's the truth of it. So, um, wherever you are in the world, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on, and talk to you soon. See you later. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Wise Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the facts from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut. If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, at a car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking at shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from White Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.