Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Self-love! Simply another thing to fail at?
Tired of being told to “love yourself first” before anything else can work? We take that sacred cow for a walk and ask a simpler, kinder question: what if love is a verb, not a mood? Annie and David unpack the pressure-packed version of self-love that dominates social media and swap it for practical actions anyone can do—no lotus pose required. Along the way we separate self-love from self-care aesthetics, look at why external validation actually matters, and explore how neutral self-respect can be more stabilising than forced affirmations.
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You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships to career choices to finances to photo jackets and failed movies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make some good ones. I'm your host, I'm an cabinet, and as a woman of a certain age, I've made my own pair of really bad decisions. Not as good, but I do go to five years. And I wish this podcast had been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give you insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. Um, wherever you are in the world, I'm sorry you're not here today. On the northern beaches of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, because it is weather perfection. I don't want to show off, but it's clear blue skies and twenty-four to twenty-five degrees, which is like optimum. What do you think, David?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I think it's right. But d does anybody listening care? You know what the weather is like when we're recording.
SPEAKER_02:Is it a stupid thing to talk about? Maybe it is. Maybe it's the noise people and they're like, Yeah, shut up about the weather.
SPEAKER_00:No one's given you any feedback on it, have they?
SPEAKER_02:No.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Well, if you don't like the the the the weather report each time, then uh let Annie know, and I'm sure she'll I'll ignore it.
SPEAKER_02:I'll ignore you. Anyway, today, David, write it, get out of it. I wanted to talk about um self-love.
SPEAKER_00:Oh.
SPEAKER_02:No. No. No. It's just that there's a lot of talk constantly about self-love.
SPEAKER_00:Self-love. What do you what do you mean? What what does this talk describe?
SPEAKER_02:Oh, um, generally speaking, there's a strong encouragement for us to love ourselves because and that you can't um another person can't love you. You won't be open to being loved unless you love yourself first, right? So I want to ask you a question.
SPEAKER_00:A are you are you taking exception to the notion of people loving themselves now?
SPEAKER_02:Sure. What? Yeah, I am.
SPEAKER_00:Isn't it isn't it fairly unquestioned that it's important that you you know, that you have a high regard for yourself, that you treat yourself kindly, you know?
SPEAKER_02:Do you I can't ask you, do you love yourself? See, you can't even answer that.
SPEAKER_00:Oh look, I have to think about it. Do I work? Oh look, I mean I guess I guess whenever I do anything that is in my uh best interests, then is that's loving myself, isn't it? Is it? You know, even when Well, being careful when I'm in conversation with you not to say anything inflammatory and thereby get myself into trouble. Those are decisions that are in my what so avoiding Yeah, invo avoiding making you cross. Is that is that self-love?
SPEAKER_02:So your version of self-love is just staying out of trouble. Yeah. That's not bad.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. What you're happy with that definition? I don't mind. Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:Ask me, ask me. I'll keep doing it.
SPEAKER_00:Do you love your Annie Annie Tell me? Do you love yourself?
SPEAKER_02:I have no idea.
SPEAKER_00:You don't you don't have any idea?
SPEAKER_02:What it what is it?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So when you say you don't have any idea Well, what is this self-loved? Exactly. So what what are we w what is your mind going in search of? Um you know, do unto others as the as is as you would like like people to do unto biblical.
SPEAKER_02:No, you've gone straight to biblical. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_00:Well it's it's it's not just biblical, it's also c cultural that idea of doing unto others as you would have them do unto you. Um but I guess that's that's that that's loving other people as you would love yourself. That presumes that you love yourself. Um Okay, so what could it be? Holding yourself in high regard and treating yourself kindly when you're hurt.
SPEAKER_02:That's different.
SPEAKER_00:What? That's that's surely. Why? Why is that different?
SPEAKER_02:I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Like if you hurt yourself and I treat you kindly, you would say that that is an act of love.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:If I am hurt and I treat myself kindly, isn't that a good thing? Isn't that a isn't that an act of self-love?
SPEAKER_02:Sure it is, but but but when you see all the memes about self-love and you have to learn to self-love and people endlessly sitting in the lotus position, focusing on self-love.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:What is that?
SPEAKER_00:I l now I know what is irritating you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, what?
SPEAKER_00:And uh and I reckon I reckon the the the irritation uh can be triggered by just one word.
SPEAKER_02:What?
SPEAKER_00:Pamper.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, now you've conflated it with self-care.
SPEAKER_00:Oh oh oh oh sorry. I thought that that maybe I thought that was the thing that that that was in your sights today. Because I know that you do hate all of those um I hate self-care. You know, that sel s social media stuff around it's really important to pamper yourself and have a milk bath with rose petals and yeah, with yeah buckets of precision.
SPEAKER_02:No, I'm talking about the notion of of just self-love. That unless we work on loving ourselves, then um we cannot be loved by another person. And that is the it's a very strong hang on, I'm gonna hang on. Okay, no. Hang on, hang on, hang on, I want to say something. Which I think sets up this terrible dichotomy of either you've s love yourself or you're screwed up, and you've got to then work on loving yourself.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, right, okay. So that that that extreme polemic uh you know polarizing um uh dichotomy of either you love yourself or you're screwed up.
SPEAKER_02:Well, love yourself or group or work on it. You've got to go and work on and you you tell me Okay, you tell me what are you meant to do to work on loving yourself?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, all right, all right, all right. No, no, no, no, now I think I s I I see where you're headed. And I'm very happy to be the advocate for self-love.
SPEAKER_02:Go on.
SPEAKER_00:If we're talking about well, let's let's let's just break it down into two words self and love. Let's take the verb, the loving bit.
SPEAKER_02:Don't talk about it like that.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I mean to to to love is to do something that benefits the the person who receives that action. A pastor?
SPEAKER_02:It's not too late. Not like a pastor like like like spaghetti.
SPEAKER_00:Marinara. You should if I if if I was a pastor, what would I be? I would be linguini.
SPEAKER_02:You'd be linguini.
SPEAKER_00:I'd be no, I'd be squid ink. Squid ink linguini. What would I be? Um spaghetti. I was gonna say gnocchi.
SPEAKER_02:That's so mean.
SPEAKER_00:Why would I be gnocchi? Um because you're um brown, you're light and frivolous and um and and energizing.
SPEAKER_02:Gnockey gnocchi is not light, frivolous, and energizing. All right, well gnocchi sort of comfort food.
SPEAKER_00:Stop. Yeah, that's it. Comfort food. You're very comforting to be around.
SPEAKER_02:I'm not though, am I?
SPEAKER_00:You know, not when not when you poke me.
SPEAKER_02:People are gonna think I'm horrible. No, you're not horrible. I'm horrif nice.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, you're you're love Well, hang on a second. Now now surely, surely if you truly loved yourself, then then then these barbs, these slings and arrows wouldn't wouldn't hurt you at all.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, so th this is the this is the the trouble with it, is this we are all flawed, right? Yeah, yeah. We're all riddled with flaws.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Right?
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And I think there is some notion that if you can't um accept and sort of love yourself in the face of your flaws, then you you'd sort of failed in the self-love test. But I think in terms of certainly in terms of loving the way you look, you know, if you look in the mirror and you think, you know, I look fat or I look old or my thighs are big or you know, my hair's going great, the roots, or whatever it is. Right.
SPEAKER_00:And that's self-criticism.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but there's no point layering over that with some sort of mantra around, but no, I love myself because you probably don't love yourself, and that's probably okay. Probably the best we can do in terms of accepting the fact that we're all flawed, is go for a sort of a mild acceptance, maybe like a new a neutral feeling.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so now I really feel I have to go back to the words themselves.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but the words themselves could just be bullshit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the words could be bullshit. I think if you talk about self-love as a noun, as a thing, you know, self-love is this thing. If you do it, then you're okay. If you don't do it, then you're you're screwed up, you know. And you really should work on yourself.
SPEAKER_02:You better go and work on yourself, and then how do you work on yourself and what are you meant to do?
SPEAKER_00:Okay, if you describe love as a noun, then I think it's problematic. If you describe love as a verb, what it is that you do, then I think it's actually a whole lot clearer. You know, because then you are talking about, okay, an act of love is an act, is an action, it is doing something um that is helping another person or supporting or encouraging or or or just loving them. You know, it's it's it's it it's an action. And so self-love and this is I I do think this is where all of these terms get distorted when they do find themselves into the health and well-being lexicon.
SPEAKER_02:This is where I think w health and you know, the whole wellness thing comes. You can go to a day spa and sit and meditate and learn, you know, and and sit with yourself and learn self-love. But this is m another point I'd like to make. We don't live in a vacuum. So then there's this thing about, well, we shouldn't be reliant on the externals, right? You shouldn't be reliant on external validation. We should just be able to love ourselves the way we are. But that's rubbish because we are tribally brained, we don't live in a vacuum, and we are to a very large degree reliant on the approval of others, and that's the truth of it.
SPEAKER_00:Well, that's the truth of it for some people.
SPEAKER_02:Well, who's it not the truth for? Someone that lives in a friggin' cave.
SPEAKER_00:Nelson Mandela. Oh, don't bring Nelson Mandela. Nelson Mand Nelson look look at the history of Nelson Mandela.
SPEAKER_02:I don't want to. He's an anomaly. He's a hero story. Hero stories do not help us.
SPEAKER_00:What's that line from Invictus? I'm the captain of my soul.
SPEAKER_02:You know, and too many hero stories. Most of us don't are not stuck in jail for twenty-five years. Most of us are just and he was magnificent, no two ways about it, but most of us are just leading ordinary lives.
SPEAKER_00:That's right. And and and and I d I I think you can take the story of a Nelson Mandela, if you get into comparison, gee, I'm not as fabulous as him, I don't have that kind of psychological flexibility or or tolerance or resilience, and he does and I don't, and therefore, you know, I am lesser, uh, then then then that's not helpful. No, you know. That's and and again, that's just self-criticism. Um but if you can, you know, if you ponder the story of Mandela and you go, well, how could he possibly um have survived that time in prison? How could he have emerged from his time in prison with no bitterness or rancor against his captor captors?
SPEAKER_02:Um it just those stories, they just drive me nuts. Yeah, yeah. They're just those stories of these absolute anomalies, these these people that are drenched in exceptionalism, and then we talk about the fact they've got raised consciousness, and then I'm like, well, that where does that leave the rest of us? Because mostly we're just trying to get on and have, you know, uh good days, good days, sometimes they're bad days, but trying to have some good days and do the best we can to enjoy what we've got around us, not to get on the hedonic treadmill. Yeah, right, that the next thing that happens is going to be the thing that's gonna make me feel good because we know the hedonic treadmill is no better. But but this notion of I have to love myself and meet my own emotional needs before anybody else can meet them, I just it just doesn't wash.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. I I guess what's occurring to me as as as you're describing the terms of wisdom. Your pearls of wisdom seem to be anchored in the extreme, you know, when people take the notion and they elevate it, you know, and they take self-love and they make it a noun, they make it an institution, they make it a cultural practice that we I have to love my. And what I'm saying is that that quiet, just treating yourself kindly, giving yourself the benefit of the doubt, um, you know, giving yourself a rest when you need it, you know, giving yourself sustenance, giving yourself time out when you need it. The things that you do that serve your, you know, your true best interests, um, not necessarily your hedonic ones, I think that that's uh that's a form of self-love which I think is kind of quite constructive. Um I do agree that it shouldn't be the purpose of your life. That if you are entirely you know self-loving and don't have any love for anybody else.
SPEAKER_02:I just think it's another way that we can self-flagellate ourselves.
SPEAKER_00:You know, okay, well, let's help people not make that mistake then.
SPEAKER_02:I'd be okay if I I just had more self-love. So, you know, I'd better, you know, eat healthy food instead of having a nice full fat piece of cake. You know, I'd better meditate. I'd I'd better go on yoga retreats. I mean, the things that are associated with self-love at that level are just so are just so entitled. You have to be in a fair amount of, you know, you've got to be in a position where you've got time and you've got money to go to a yoga class and and you know, you've got time to devote to meditation, and you're not a single mother with two children, and you've got three jobs to hold down, and maybe you've got an abusive partner. I mean, they're these people with these incredibly complex lives. Um, so I I think the word is solipsistic, so you don't have time for this solipsistic pursuit of self-loving because you're just getting on with your life. So for people that are just getting on with their lives and they're really busy and maybe they're under pressure and they're dealing with all sorts of stuff, what do they do? It's of way more interest to me.
SPEAKER_00:Okay. Tell me if I've got this wrong. But what I think you're describing is that when people use a concept like self-love to just fashion another rod for their back.
SPEAKER_02:You know, or 'cause it's unattainable.
SPEAKER_00:Because it's unattainable. Yeah. So, you know, I'm I'm not doing self-love and so I'm a bad person. So they end up And I'll never be lovable.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and I'll never And I will never be lovable. But the fact is that and this is a very interesting point, I think, you may not particularly think so well of yourself. You know, you may have nothing more than a neutral opinion of your looks. You may have no more than a neutral opinion of your intelligence or your creativity or your personality, but other people can still love you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and and you know what I didn't hear that.
SPEAKER_02:That was a very important thing I said.
SPEAKER_00:I i it is, and as you were saying it, I was thinking, no, I d I disagree with your frame up.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, okay, go on.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because you're you're saying um um you know there is a a singular you that will have a good evaluation of yourself or a poor evaluation of yourself. Oh yeah, that's true. Yeah, you're right. If you don't have a voice that is saying, you know, you're okay, you know, I'm with you. Um you know, you you've been through a lot, you're doing the best that you can. You know that you know that if you don't have that voice, uh then you're saying then the voice is absent.
SPEAKER_02:Well, the voice comes and goes.
SPEAKER_00:And and again, come back to the our definition of the way that the brain actually works. The brain is not a single voice. The brain is actually more like a parliament. It's more like a committee.
SPEAKER_02:Committee, committee voice. And so rather than the chairman might be na saying negative things. The chairman might be saying negative things.
SPEAKER_00:Yep the vice president or the uh you know the uh the head of sustainability and resilience. Um Head of HR. HR, yes.
SPEAKER_02:Head head of encouragement IT risk. What about risk?
SPEAKER_00:Whatever. Yeah. Okay. Um in our mind there are many voices that are often struggling and debating to be heard. And so it's probably not that you either have a voice that loves you inside and or or likes you and approves of you or doesn't accept I bet you probably do. It just could be very, very quiet.
SPEAKER_02:I would say, me personally, I've got pretty good self-esteem. Wouldn't you agree with that?
SPEAKER_00:Certainly. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. I pr think pretty well of myself.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, you do.
SPEAKER_02:Hmm. And doesn't mean that I don't have self-doubt. Um days when I don't like myself, um, d days when I'm unhappy with my mood.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:Um, days when I I think I should be I should be having more generous thoughts doesn't mean any of those things I go through all that, you know, you know, I get quite anxious, but still my sense of self-esteem is quite high. Yeah. Like I I I think I would like to have me as a friend. I think I'm quite good fun, da da da. I don't go through that sort of existential doubt all the time. But if you ask me if I love myself, I have no idea. I don't think so.
SPEAKER_00:What you've just described sounds like the many voices model of the way that the brain works. You know, there are days when the loudest voice is, you know, you're a crappy writer, you're wasting your time, there's no point doing these podcasts, no one cares, nobody listens. Yeah, good. There are days when you have that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Um but fundamentally I think that when push when push comes to shove, when push when push comes to shove, that fundamental sense that you are okay.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm okay.
SPEAKER_00:Um, I think that that's probably the most enduring voice. So it sounds to me like what you are describing, it actually fits the model of the the the the brain, or indeed the mind, if you will, yeah, offering up different voices.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And luckily for you, the voice that you come back to is one that is fundamentally self-affirming, um, uh self-accepting. You know, you think you're a pretty good you'd be a pretty good friend.
SPEAKER_02:I do.
SPEAKER_00:You quite like you, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:I quite I quite like me, but as I have just and I won't bother going through it again, but I have all sorts of I said to you this morning, I've just read back through the first chapter of my book and it's total rubbish and no one's ever going to publish it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:So I mean I still have that. But I think that if I had spent the last twenty years tr devoting myself to loving myself, I I I I I I I don't I don't see the benefit of that. I would rather spend my time looking at the quality of my thinking and applying critical thinking to some of the more repetitive thoughts that go through my head. So if I have a a strong emotional reaction to something, my first impulse, and not always, but I'd like to think, is to go, is that valid, what's going on there, what's driving that? Which means I try not to be incr incredibly reactive. Which so I and I try and look at the cognitive flaws in my thinking. Is that consistency bias? Is that confirmation bias? Is that the spotlight effect? Yeah. Right? So that to me is of more benefit to me leading a sort of a constructive, purposeful life than trying to have self-love because I think I'd never get there. I'd I'd never make it, and people will love me anyway, won't they? Regardless. And then I feel good about myself because I've got good friends and I've got you around me. And that makes me feel good, and that's fine. Yes. And you're external, you don't live inside me, and my friends don't live inside my head.
SPEAKER_00:This is true.
SPEAKER_02:Hmm.
SPEAKER_00:And so listen, I will say this thing first is is that I will always love you.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, Dave. Okay. Yeah. Um But what if you don't? And well uh What if you leave me?
SPEAKER_00:I I I I want you to remember that when I share this next thing, and I want you I don't want you to be offended by it.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, go on.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, so you're saying, you know, when you when you observe yourself, you know, you haven't spent a lot of time at the spa. Um I look good though. Or you do.
SPEAKER_02:What sort of spa?
SPEAKER_00:Um beauty spa. Yeah, but a beauty spa. Oh. Nail spa.
SPEAKER_02:How do how do I look regardless?
SPEAKER_00:You look fantastic. Yeah, you just look great, right?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, go.
SPEAKER_00:Uh but I I'm I'm I'm reflecting back to you. You say you haven't spent a lot of time consciously doing self-love stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I think that your self-love has been taken care of itself, you know, without you necessarily calling it that.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, that's an interesting thing you just said. What do you mean by that?
SPEAKER_00:Okay. So um I think of self-love as an action. Right? It's something that you do.
SPEAKER_02:And I don't think people see it like that. They talk about it, I think they think about it being like having some self-care and then having a good fe a good feeling about themselves. Right.
SPEAKER_00:I mean clearly it's been working for you. Your your approach to self-love, you've had just enough of it in order to get to where you are at the moment. You've always looked after yourself pretty well. It's like if you don't like the restaurant, we go to another restaurant. If you don't like the hotel, we go to another hotel. If I suggest we go camping, you say there's no way I'm going to go camping, and you avoid those sorts of things. These are actions that you are taking that are actually taking care of yourself.
SPEAKER_02:Boundaries' boundaries. That's right. Sound quite selfish.
SPEAKER_00:You well, no, you're not selfish. This is just I think what anybody would do. If I if I say to you on a Friday evening, you know, Would you like a margarita? Yeah. You will, yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, so no, you don't you don't put that under the banner of self-love, but I think it's under the banner of um Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_02:No, no, fair point. Fair point.
SPEAKER_00:That'd be that'd be nice. And and and so if I am um speaking on behalf of the validity of of of self-love as a practical action that takes care of yourself, then yeah, that's what I think of when I think about you. Yeah. You don't, you know, you you you you don't turn self-love into a ceremony and post post it on Instagram and you know, m make other people feel bad that they're not as enlightened and and fabulous as you are, um, which we sometimes see. Um no, it's it's it it's just more practical.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, this is the um self-love, and this is um through s the lens of psychology, self-love is a practice of prioritizing and nurturing your own physical, emotional, spiritual, and social well-being, characterized by self-appreciation, self-compassion, and acceptance of your true self are both strengths and weaknesses.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, cool.
SPEAKER_02:It involves actions, which sounds fine. It involves actions like to your point, actions, as it do, like setting healthy boundaries, speaking kindly to yourself and taking care of your needs rather than being a fixed state or narcissistic trait. Cultivating self-love leads to better mental health, increased optimism, and a greater ability to embrace new opportunities. So that to me sounds um totally fine because it's like self-compassion. It involves being understanding of your mistakes and losses and communicating with yourself without harsh judgment or punishment. That sounds fine. Um meeting basic needs, you know, eating, sleeping, exercising, um honouring your true self. Oh, here we go.
SPEAKER_00:If you're gonna read definitions, you're bound to find something unburdened.
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's about recognizing accepting all parts of yourself, which is fine, including your emotions and fears and being true to your authentic self. Now you you know I think there is no authentic self, but anyway.
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:But um okay c can I sort of describe a um uh that's what I don't think I I think that's not what people think of. And I uh can I can I just finish my thoughts on that? Um accept like accepting your flaws and and accepting you know, like for instance, your body the way it is, as I said, I think the best you can do is just go for neutral. I think going I love myself, like I truly love myself, is just sets up because it's a lie, right? Like you don't, right?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, but but but to your definition you can accept yourself. Well you can You can accept yourself, you can have compassion, you can accept your strengths and your w weaknesses, and not get involved in a whole lot of drama about being that person.
SPEAKER_02:I think it's really hard.
SPEAKER_00:It is hard. Oh, sure it is hard.
SPEAKER_02:I think I I I like that idea of just going for neutral, like looking at yourself instead of going because I've got you know so many girlfriends who have got like on their mirror, not I do not have so many girlfriends, that is a gross exaggeration. I had one. And on her mirror it said, um, y you know, um, you are beautiful.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:But she didn't think she was beautiful, and all that sets up is your brain goes, No, you're not, yes I am, no, you're not, yes I am, it's a complete waste of time. Yeah, you may as well go, that's what I look like, pretty neutral about it. There's more to me than my looks, off you go.
SPEAKER_00:All right, so practice makes perfect, but only if you practice the right things.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, that's true.
SPEAKER_00:If you put a sign on your mirror and say, You are beautiful, you're a total spunk, and you look at it and that creates dissonance, then obviously that's not the sorts of thing that you should be practicing. Um look, with several um say therapy clients that I've worked with that are dealing with grief, uh, and dealing with the kind of grief that is also mixed up in uh uh a poor self-image, you know, if they've been in a a relationship with a a narcissistic partner for a long time and that narcissistic sorry, and that narcissistic abuse narcissistic is hard to say, isn't it? That narcissistic abuse has got beneath their skin and they've started to think I'm I'm a bad person and I'm really sad about this.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is an exercise that I think then the worst thing that they can do is try and love themselves. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Correct, it's just bullshit.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, because what is going on to get there? Because the state that is going on in their body is that they are carrying the, you know, the the biochemistry or the you know the they're carrying around all of the information in their body that is either grief or anxiety or even self self-loathing. And that's a really difficult thing to shift when someone is, you know, deep in the valley of the shadow of death, you know, when you're really again. Sorry, sorry, it's cultural as well. When someone's having a really hard time, they're anxious, they're grieving, they loathe themselves, there's an exercise that I ask them to do.
SPEAKER_02:And before you go into that, so so they're in that state, and then you add into the mix, well, you need to go away on a retreat and and learn to love yourself, and all that's going to do is they're going to tr try for a minute, not manage it, come back and have one more thing they failed at.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that that that's right. Right? And and we and we don't want that.
SPEAKER_02:So you want more failure.
SPEAKER_00:So I I I'm suggesting that we low key it, that we make it an action, and this is the thing that um that I teach. I also use it myself when I'm in moments of grief or disappointment or loss or anger, you know, any any any big emotion, rather than saying I shouldn't be feeling this, rather than saying I shouldn't be feeling this if I was enlightened, if I was truly resilient, if I was Oh, enlightened if I was all of those things, I wouldn't be feeling this. We know that that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_02:We certainly know that doesn't work.
SPEAKER_00:What I have found does work is that I will lift, you know, the left hand or the right hand. And I will think about what I would do if I was in the presence of a friend, you know, one of the children, if they were anxious or grief stricken or full of self-loathing, what would I do with that hand? You know, I'd place that hand on them and I would reassure them. And so I asked somebody to hold up their hand and to fill that hand with all the the love and the acceptance and the reassurance, just to do this as a as as a thought experiment and to feel love in their hand. Yes, I know it's a metaphor, but to feel that sense of love in their hand and then to place their hand on the part of their body that's hurting. So it might be their heart, it might be their throat, might be their head, might be their stomach. And that is an act of self-compassion. It's an act of self-acceptance if you as you place your hand on your heart.
SPEAKER_02:Looking at where the pain is.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and you're saying, listen, you know, I get it.
SPEAKER_02:Instead of going for some um n sort of disconnected notion of uh of self-love that it's gonna fix you and self-care, yeah, you're just going in that moment, I I feel this pain and it's located somewhere in my body.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:And instead of trying to stay away from it and and go towards uh a notion which is very difficult to embrace, um, I'm just going to for a minute just be nice to myself. Yeah, I'm just gonna do that. Yeah. I think it's good. Just for that minute. Just go for that. Feel better for a second, and maybe not.
SPEAKER_00:Feel better for a second? And maybe not. Maybe not. And that's the thing about a true action. An action is the act itself. It's not attachment to the destination.
SPEAKER_02:Ooh, deep.
SPEAKER_00:Well, sorry. Um so so so like she didn't say journey. Yep. So you you're gonna hate it because I'm gonna use a sporting metaphor now.
SPEAKER_02:Actually at this point I know I've got to say, what I would prefer a sporting metaphor than if you come out with any more biblical quotes.
SPEAKER_00:All right, okay. So um take take the process of kicking a kicking a goal. Oh kicking a goal with a football.
SPEAKER_02:Must I?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well, I'm I I'm suggesting that it is you can separate the idea of I have to score a goal, that's expectation, to the process of just kicking the ball. You know, kicking the ball in the direction that you want to with the intent that you want.
SPEAKER_02:But then you're not going to win the game. Uh or just in rehearsal.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, this is in the moment you you can't score the goal and kick the ball at the same time.
SPEAKER_01:What?
SPEAKER_00:You kick the ball in order to score the goal, but in that moment you can only do the one thing. Focus on you know, your your kicking of the goal, focus on what you are doing to yourself. Put a loving hand on your chest, say to yourself it's okay, you know, it's natural to feel like this. Okay. If if you if you self-love hang on, hang on.
SPEAKER_02:Take out the self-love thing.
SPEAKER_00:All right.
SPEAKER_02:What you so I'm kicking the ball in order to g to score a goal.
SPEAKER_00:To Yes, but I can tell you as well But I know focused on the on the goal, the polls. You can't Yeah, you you know where you're going, right? You know where I'm going. That's right, you know what your intention is, but you can't This is why I've never played sport before. Yeah, that's right. You can't you can't kick the ball and score the goal at the same time.
SPEAKER_02:It's quite soon afterwards. It is quite soon afterwards.
SPEAKER_00:It is it is It's quite soon. But the only thing that you have control over is the way that you kick the ball. Sure. The only thing that you have control over is the way that you do the verb.
SPEAKER_02:In that moment. In that moment. And and that's that whole thing which I sort of even though I've always been deeply irritated by the notion of mindfulness, I do see that actually, you know, while you're uh you know, constantly cogitating and catastrophizing and ruminating about the past or the f you know, ruminating about the past or catastrophizing about the future, there is something about coming back into the moment where you just have a cup, you know, a sip of tea. I do get I do get that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And it's har a really hard thing to do. I do I have been trying to do it lately, and you know, I'll feel the sun on my arm or the you know the breeze on my face, or and you know where where I get where I get it really clearly is that that removal from that constant voice that's in my head is when I'm at the gym and I'm and we have to get, I don't know, ten calories on the bike in th two minutes and it's it it's at one minute forty and w someone's on it, and for that 20 seconds You're just peddling. All I'm doing is peddling, and that's all I'm doing.
SPEAKER_00:You're in action, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, yeah. That's all I'm doing. And and in that regard, I totally get it.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Because I cannot do that and also worry at the same time.
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. Okay. So so so I know I know that you think that I'm being overly conceptual when I say love is a verb. Um self-love is a verb.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we've just got to take it out of the vernacular. I think just call I mean, I get it. Just can we just go Be kind to yourself. What about just um self-like yourself a bit?
SPEAKER_00:Okay.
SPEAKER_02:What about that? Um Like yourself a bit. Look uh Today. Isn't that easier to manage?
SPEAKER_00:Annie, whatever works for you, um, fabulous.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you, David, for that wise and pastoral comment. Oh my god almighty. Whatever works for me wise and pastoral I'll just do it for you. See how this works. No, wait, let me do it for you. David, whatever works for you, that's good.
SPEAKER_00:So is what you're saying that what works for me is not going to work for everybody? Is that what you're saying, Annie?
SPEAKER_02:That's right. Yeah, okay. So some people I didn't say that you see, you had a passive.
SPEAKER_00:Some people might like a little bit of scripture. You should Some people might like. Maybe that's their way of maybe that's their way of um of of of building some artistry around their cells.
SPEAKER_02:Philomena. Philomena. I do remember this about Philomena.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, Philomena Morphab.
SPEAKER_02:She was a fabulous actor's agent and she She was a very strong Catholic, is that what you're saying?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and she used to go to Mass every morning. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And I totally like I really get that. Yeah, yeah. Do you know why I get it?
SPEAKER_00:You go to the gym.
SPEAKER_02:Because it's ritual. I totally get it. And there's also something, um, considering I'm incredibly non-spiritual and irreligious, there is something I really love about sitting in a church. Yeah. I love it. I think it's beautiful. That's why they built them that way. I get it. I totally get it. So in some ways, I used to look at Philomena, even though she she did she wasn't my agent. Thanks, Philomena. Um, and she I I thought that was a great thing that she did because it was a ritual and it gave her a sense of belonging and a a sense of quiet, it was great.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and look, this is this is actually where I think we are entitled to be proud about the habits that we build. Because if we are building a habit that does make us feel better, feel stronger, feel more compassionate, feel more solid, feel more generous, feel bigger and able to deal with things, if you are building that particular habit, then I think you can look at that and go, yeah, go me. Like you've got that habit with your going to be a good one.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, but listen, listen, the thing what you just said is that you're talking about being better in the world. Right? If you if you hang on, hang on. If you if you're doing something that makes you, you know, more compassionate, um, able to achieve more, sort of more purposeful, um, more generous, more kind, then that's a good thing. But what you're talking about there is being relational in the world. Which see, it's it's different, which is which is what I'm saying. You're talking about being a human being in relationship to other human beings. We don't live in a vacuum. And the more we get into this self-love, self-care business, the I reckon the more awry we go.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, well, you know, um Abram Maslow, Abram Maslow would probably tell you that um you're not right there. Because the sorts of things that you're talking about, you know, looking after other people, you know, maybe that's self-actualizing needs or higher on the scale of needs. You as you say, the world is not perfect. If your physical and biological needs aren't being met, right, then that's the first thing that's going to be most important to you.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, okay. Okay. So i i Maslow's hierarchy of needs, right? You know, it goes from the bottom, which is which is like air and water, and the top where you're self-actualised.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:Now, um I would say that um say in the sort of middle class lives that we lead, right? Especially at the moment, we are spending quite a lot of time caring for other people. Would you agree with that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02:And that in itself is its own reward, right? That feeds back a sense of purposefulness to that to me feeds back a sense of identity to me, which makes me feel good about myself, right? Which is um different to sitting in a meditative state, you know, tr tr trying to love myself. Also, I agree with Maslow's hierarchy of needs, and of course, you know, if for instance you're in a war-torn um place at the moment in the world, then you're at the bottom of Maslow's hierarchy of needs because you're in the survival mode. Yeah, exactly. And I I I get that, I totally get that. But we're mostly not in survival mode, you and I. We've got our basic human needs met, correct?
SPEAKER_00:Yes, and as we go from one context to another, you know, there are things that can erode our sense of um of physical safety, you know, of uh of uh social safety. You know, do I actually belong to this group? You know, every every morning that I get up, generally speaking, the first thought that I have is um uh I haven't done enough in order to self-actualise. Oh really? Yeah. I mean you know, the the f the first thoughts that are creeping beneath my head are are are generally around, you know, m my poor evaluation on, you know, me making the best of the gifts that I've been given. Oh. You know, and that's just kind of I think I think it's a reflexive thing that's come out of my psychological history, etcetera, etc.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, th I mean we all bring our we all bring our histories, our childhoods, the cultures that we grew up in with us, do we not? Um and I guess it's up to us as we get older to start to you know, r really analyse some of those uh reactive states and and maybe start letting them go.
SPEAKER_00:Yes.
SPEAKER_02:That's not a great way to wake up.
SPEAKER_00:No, no. No, that's right.
SPEAKER_02:Um and I think you do great.
SPEAKER_00:What?
SPEAKER_02:What yeah But d but see there you go. Now does that make any difference to you?
SPEAKER_00:Oh oh look, I've I've I've packed it away somewhere.
SPEAKER_02:Right. So if you tell me I'm doing great, like, oh beauty.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Well that's well that's because you are.
SPEAKER_02:Well, so are you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, okay.
SPEAKER_02:It's just the way we view it. Yeah, yeah. So on that note, it's yes, a quick so you can say one last thing and then we have to go and let the good people go back to their last We have to go to the beach.
SPEAKER_00:I think it's okay for you to reflect on whether meeting some of your own needs first will help you to be the person that you want to be. You know, either for yourself or for other people.
SPEAKER_02:I agree, but that's this thing that you can physically do in the world. You can have good boundaries, you can read a book instead of doing something you don't you can do physically do things. I just don't think s you know, doing a meditative practice where you go, I I love myself unconditionally is going to do anything except make you feel bad because you come out of the meditation, you still don't feel any better anyway.
SPEAKER_00:Are you speaking from personal experience? No. No, that's that's hypothet's hypothetical.
SPEAKER_02:Of course I did, of course I did that in man of that um what are they called?
SPEAKER_00:Um What the personal development courses that you did.
SPEAKER_02:What was the things you say to yourself?
SPEAKER_00:Oh mantras.
SPEAKER_02:I did m mantras?
SPEAKER_00:Affirmations.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. I did affirmations for years. It was just frigging pointless. Frigging pointless. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:Clearly, you've ended up bitter and twisted.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm so bitter and twisted. Um anyway, so thank you, David. Thank you, Harrison. Poor Harry has to sit here next to us and listen to us and blather on. But you don't mind, do you, Harry? Not at all.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, Harry, just take your right hand up, fill it with compassion. Maybe your left hand as well, and then put them over your eyes like this.
SPEAKER_02:David, the pastor. You need your own church, David. What would it be called? Um St. David's.
SPEAKER_00:It's just up the road.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. What about me? You St. Anne's. Um, on that note, thanks for listening, smart women. Um, I hope you enjoyed our ruminations on self-love. Please don't give yourselves a hard time because you're not involved in the self-love movement. Um, so um stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on, and see you soon. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Wise Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the facts from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can cut your gut. If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, at a car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking at shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from White Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.
