From Ball Games To Big Ideas: How Rigidity Shrinks A Life

A sweltering spring day, a newly minted dog beach, and one missing ball turn into a bigger question: why do we try to control what can’t be controlled? We head to Mona Vale where hundreds of dogs sprint through the surf and most humans smile—until a few arrive with tight rules, tight lips, and the belief that public spaces should run to their personal script. That tiny friction becomes our doorway into manners, shared spaces, and the sneaky sentence that fuels so much outrage: “this shouldn’t be happening.”

Transcript

Welcome And Hot Sydney Setup

SPEAKER_00 0:00

You are listening to the Why Smart Women Podcast, the podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better ones. From relationships to career choices to finances to photo jackets and chaos movies. Every moment of the day, we're making decisions. Let's make them good ones. I'm your host, I am a covenant, and as a woman of a turkey, I've made my own care of really bad decisions. Not as good after. And I wish this podcast had been around to take me from myself. This podcast will give you insight into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. Today I am broadcasting from D Wine, the northern beaches of Sydney, New South Wales, Australia, and it's now mid-spring, and it's boiling hot, isn't it, David?

SPEAKER_02 1:08

Hello, Henny. Yes, it is. It's a hot day today. High 30s out in Western Sydney today.

SPEAKER_00 1:15

It feels like high thirties here.

SPEAKER_02 1:16

It's a it's a it's a it's an early hot day for um for for spring in Sydney. Gotta say I'm enjoying it.

SPEAKER_00 1:25

Yeah, I don't mind it either. It's been a pretty bad wet winter and cold winter. So well, you know, not by Canadian standards where a lot of our listeners are, but anyway, here's the thing is that the heat has arrived and with it our visits to the beach. And the thing that has happened here in the Northern Beaches.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Oh, the tremendous development.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

It's a tremendous development.

Mona Vale Becomes A Dog Beach

SPEAKER_02 1:47

Oh, yes, very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

The exciting thing is that the Northern Beaches Council has decided to designate Mona Vale surf beach as a dog beach for certain hours of the day.

SPEAKER_02 2:01

Isn't it wonderful when a local council makes a great decision on the road?

SPEAKER_00 2:03

Well, it was it was this is very interesting around um the notion of people power because it was one person that agitated.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

Really?

SPEAKER_00 2:11

Yeah, and she started the whole thing rolling. Of course. Um so one fantastic resident had agitated for it, and you could tell there was hundreds of dogs and and hundreds of people doing the dog.

SPEAKER_02 2:21

Well, Sunday Sunday morning I reckon there would have been at least three hundred dogs.

SPEAKER_00 2:25

Yeah, there was.

SPEAKER_02 2:26

And um, you know, one and a half owners per dog, lots of people on the beach.

SPEAKER_00 2:30

Yeah, it was it was honestly like being on a movie set. So if you are listening and you are on the northern beaches uh in Sydney and you have a dog and you were unaware of this, get down to Monava, have a look online and you can see where the restricted hours are, but get down to the beach. So I guess the thing about the beach is that the dogs in the main were really, really well behaved. Wouldn't you say? Oh, all the dogs generically, yeah, no trouble from the dogs.

SPEAKER_02 2:58

The dogs were just being dogs.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

The dogs were being dogs, and the dogs were joyous and bounding and in the surf and having the most awesome time getting dumped and coming up out of the waves, and it was just wonderful. And I would say predominantly the people as well, um, if you zoom back from, you know, if you look back, if you had a high angle on the whole thing, were also pretty well behaved. What would you say?

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Oh, yeah, I mean well behaved. I mean, there were no fights, there were no arguments, there were no No, yeah, we were all well behaved.

SPEAKER_00 3:31

Uh you know, people were m mainly sort of congenial and easy to get along with and friendly, would you agree?

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Live and let live.

SPEAKER_00 3:38

Live and let live.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

You know, they were they were they were living the the the principles of let them. Let the dogs be dogs, let the dog owners be dog owners.

SPEAKER_00 3:46

Yeah. Except for a few.

SPEAKER_02 3:48

Except for a few, and I wonder what what they're thinking.

Joyful Dogs, Mostly Chill Humans

SPEAKER_00 3:50

But they've come to a they've come to a a a dog park, which also is a beach, and yet they want dogs to behave like Well what happens is so you'll get a person arriving um with a ball, and then they will they will have the dog that is their dog, and they will throw the ball for their dog, and then another dog will intervene in the process and invariably take the ball.

SPEAKER_02 4:21

Well, let's let's let's be plain about it. I mean, Ryder and Yo-Yo are both shocking ball thieves.

SPEAKER_00 4:26

Well, they're both our dogs are ball thieves, but this is not an uncommon thing because I don't know what goes on in a dog's brain, but it would seem to be that somebody else's ball is a lot more interesting than your own ball.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:40

So there, you know, there's a lot of sort of cross theft going on with dogs and balls.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Yeah, it's it's the bull version of the grass is greener on the other side of the head.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yes, the ball is greener on the other side. So this goes on, and in the for the most part, a dog will run up to another dog and take the ball or whatever, and mostly the owner will go, Oh, it's fine, don't worry about it, except for a select few people.

SPEAKER_02 5:06

And you're not very happy with those people, are you?

SPEAKER_00 5:08

I just don't get it. Well, I mean, I sort of do get it if I look at it from a sort of interesting behavioural point of view. But if you're going to you so you walk into this environment where there's dogs and there's people and there's balls, and you walk into this environment and you decide that you are going to remain in control of the trajectory and the ownership of the ball. Right?

SPEAKER_02 5:39

All right.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

This is what happens to the owner. Oh, yes. They walk into this environment.

SPEAKER_02 5:43

They get hyper controlling around the ball.

SPEAKER_00 5:44

They get hyper-controlling around the ball.

SPEAKER_02 5:47

We paid$15 for that ball, you know. Do not do not take Fluffy's ball away from her.

SPEAKER_00 5:51

Don't take Fluffy's ball away.

SPEAKER_02 5:53

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

Um, and then what they do is so one of our dogs, or one of the many other myriad dogs, runs in, grabs the ball, and runs away with the ball.

SPEAKER_02 6:03

Well, parading it. Parading the ball.

SPEAKER_00 6:05

Because there's ownership. There's dog pride in ownership, right? Dogs are awesome. And then they stand there.

SPEAKER_02 6:11

String lipped.

Ball Theft And The String‑Lipped Owner

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Very string-lipped. So it for those of you who aren't Australian, um, string-lipped is a very Australian term. Isn't it? String lipped?

SPEAKER_02 6:21

I reckon. I reckon. Okay, alright.

SPEAKER_00 6:24

String lipped. And it just it just means somebody who has drawn their mouth into a David's doing it now, into two thin lines to express displeasure at what has just transpired.

SPEAKER_02 6:36

Oh, not just displeasure, it's disapproval.

SPEAKER_00 6:38

It's disapproval. So what happens is they stand there. Generally they cross their arms and they stand there with their lips sort of in these two thin lines.

SPEAKER_02 6:47

Pursed.

SPEAKER_00 6:48

Pur. I think they're more thin lines than pursed.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Okay, okay, fine. Pursed is different. This is this is your story?

SPEAKER_00 6:53

Well, it's our story, darling. It's our story. It's our dog's story. All right. Anyway, so then what happens is either David or I, or some other dog owner, goes to their own dog and attempts to extricate, you know, the disgusting, slobbery, gummy ball that's been chewed and is now covered in sand. Yo-yo, excuse me, I'm telling the story. And then walks back towards the owner, and there's this the walk of trepidation. So generally, as you walk towards another owner, you're waiting for their face to break into a smile, right?

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Yeah, that kind of yes, we're all dog owners too.

SPEAKER_00 7:32

Oh, yeah. Yes. Yeah, it's all good.

SPEAKER_02 7:34

But then what thank you for bringing Fluffy's ball back.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

Yeah, thank you for that. And no, don't worry about it. I don't know, it's a dog park. You know, that's anyway. As you walk towards the string-lipped person, it is the walk of trepidation. And and then you get to about a, I don't know, a meter in front of them and you say so sorry about Ryder's behaviour. Um, but he really likes other people's balls. And instead of smiling at you, they then put their hand out and say something like, Um, yeah, we just he we just really like to just um if that you know, we just really like to be able to throw the ball for Alright, yeah, yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_02 8:12

Yeah, that is our dog's ball.

SPEAKER_00 8:14

Yeah, that's it, yeah. Yeah, that is our dog's ball. And so you say that, and then I'd go that is our dog's ball. I'm s I'm so sorry, just that you know, rider has a preference for other people's balls.

SPEAKER_02 8:25

It's quite an expensive ball, this one too.

SPEAKER_00 8:27

Oh okay. Well s sorry about that. And then they say nothing. And then you walk away, and there's the moment, in my opinion, has been a little bit ruined.

SPEAKER_02 8:42

Yeah. Why why why does it why does it bother you that much? I mean, you know, it's a shame that your lovely morning at the beach has been ruined.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

No, but that's not true. It hasn't been ruined.

SPEAKER_02 8:51

It hasn't been ruined.

SPEAKER_00 8:51

It's just that moment, I'm like, because I want to go. What is wrong with you? Why would you come to a public dog beach and then behave like you're in your own backyard? If you want to go, if you want to just be on your own and and and and have some sort of um sovereignty over the ball, then just stay in your own backyard, then you won't have to put up with other dogs. So then it gets me thinking about the notion of over-control.

SPEAKER_01 9:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

And if you're over-controlled in that environment, are you also over-controlled and controlling in other environments? Right. And what drives that and how helpful is it, and how much joy does that actually shut down?

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Well, you if if if if if the conversation is about you know being controlling in general, um sometimes uh people will feel that they need to be in control if they are actually responsible for the well-being of the person in their charge or the dog in their charge. So, you know, I know that I sometimes get a bit over controlling with the dogs because I want them to behave. You know, I make rider go in the lead when he could probably be Yeah, you're more likely to do that. Yeah.

Control, Manners, And Shared Spaces

SPEAKER_00 10:02

You're more likely to go, the dog isn't behaving well. Yes. Whereas I'm more likely to go, look, it's a frigging public dog park and their dogs, if he's not behaving perfectly, oh well. As long as long as he's not being vicious, as long as he doesn't bite anybody, bite a child, leap up on a person who's maybe physically couldn't manage that.

SPEAKER_02 10:26

That would be bad.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

If that happened, then that would be different. But sort of rambunctious, doggy stealing behaviour doesn't worry me, but it worries you more.

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Well, well it um no, I I I I feel probably a a a a greater sense of responsibility for the the experience of the other people on the beach. So if Ryder does take the ball, if he's being too rambunctious, yeah I will put him on the lead. Because I think, you know, it's just it's polite, isn't it? You know, we're in a shared space and um I mean they have come in possibly, you know, you could argue that they've got a a heightened sense of entitlement. Who? The dog owner who the string-lipped the string-lipped dog owner.

SPEAKER_00 11:10

But why should we then it's an interesting question. Why should we then actually um you know give allowances for that sense of entitlement because what they're trying to do is micromanage the environment.

SPEAKER_02 11:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And and you disapprove of their micromanagement in that situation. Um they're probably you know, it could be that they're a bit sensitive, you know, or or it could be that they're a little bit frightened, you know, frightened of other dogs or then don't come to a big public dog experience. Maybe they've only just discovered that the big public dog experience is a bit out of their control. And they're doing what any normal human being would want to do, and that is assert their their agency in that moment.

SPEAKER_00 11:51

You know, this is the owner you're talking about, not the dog.

SPEAKER_02 11:53

This is the this is the yeah, this is the owner, you know. This is Fluffy's ball, and I would really appreciate it if you could keep your dogs under control.

SPEAKER_00 11:59

It's interesting what you say about manners, because in terms of social cohesion, we look to rules and things that are legislated, and that's what we hit up against if we decide to have antisocial behaviour. Right?

SPEAKER_02 12:18

There's rules and there's You make too much noise, you use bad language, yeah. There's rules, yeah. Your your behaviour impinges on the on the the the comfort of others.

SPEAKER_00 12:28

Yeah, so there's social rules, um, there's regulations, there's legislation. It's interesting what you say about manners because manners in a way are almost more important because they're not regulated. They're just an they're it's something that the person personally makes a choice to be well mannered.

SPEAKER_01 12:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 12:52

Right? No one can tell you you have to be well-mannered, there's no legislation around it. Yes. But in s in terms of sort of social glue and social cohesion, being well managed is is really, really important. Because it's not it's it's not dictated, it's a personal choice around it.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

So so the distinction there, um tell me tell me tell me if I've got this right. Um it's a bit like when you're driving on the road. You know, the rules are that you stop at a red light. Correct. Um, you know, that you you you stop at a giveaway sign that you indicate when you go left and right. Those are those are the actual legislated rules.

SPEAKER_00 13:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:29

And when you are driving along and you want to change lanes, yeah, um it's not it's not so clearly legislated that somebody has to make space for you or slow down to let you change that. But that's a manner thing.

SPEAKER_00 13:42

It's a manners thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

And I I I know that I get very cross. Well, I I it I tend to get cross with the behaviour of other people on the road when they are ill-mannered. Me too, me too, me too, as you know. Yes, I do. I I tend to be Well, I let everybody in. Yeah, we let people in. We let people in. We're letting we're letting them in. Like a zipper. It's that it's like a zipper.

SPEAKER_00 14:02

Come on, guys, let people in.

SPEAKER_02 14:03

It's that street sign um that I think they only have in uh in New Zealand where they say, Yeah, let the cars merge like a zipper for people who can't.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Or did you make that up? Is that because Ross Anderson told us that once?

SPEAKER_02 14:16

Like a zipper.

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Like a zipper.

The Myth Of “This Shouldn’t Be Happening”

SPEAKER_02 14:18

No, no, no. I do recall it from my time in New Zealand. And yes, um, I do notice and I reflect on, gee, I got really cranky with that person because I felt that they had bad manners on the road. And I reckon there's an amplifier with that kind of drama. It is when you believe that the other person knows what the right manners are. And so you kind of amplify it and you go, okay, not only did they not let me in, yeah, not only did they cut me off and steal that car space, yeah, but they knew that they shouldn't have done it, and so I now feel insulted that this other person didn't actually give me enough respect to be well mannered in my in my presence.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So if we go back to this notion of the the the person in the dog park.

SPEAKER_02 15:12

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Or the dog beach. That's right. That is is behaving like they have agency over everything. It's just that it's not relaxing for them either. Like that would be so unrelaxing. Yeah. Like we go down there and it's just all all bets are off, right? Everyone's just helping everybody. Yeah. Like someone picked up one of Ryder's poos because I didn't know he'd done it. And that was very nice.

SPEAKER_02 15:34

It was very chivalrous.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Well, he had a grodle. Oh, right. And I didn't see it happen. And he said, someone thought it was my grudel, it was actually your grudel, so I picked it up. And and he was so nice about it, and that's lovely. And that sort of social generosity and social flexibility and fluidity is what makes things fun and awesome.

SPEAKER_02 15:51

Exactly. I had a situation yesterday when Ryder, I'd let Ryder off the lead, and um we were in a very large dog park down by D W DY Lagoon.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Oh, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:02

And um and Ryder, you know, bounded over towards another bloke, quite a big bloke, yeah. Um, who had his own dog.

SPEAKER_00 16:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:09

And for the very, very first time, um Ryder didn't actually pull up before he clattered into this bloke.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:16

And um that's actually a bad thing that he did there because he's too bad. He could have absolutely wiped out a small child or a an octagenarian grandma. Yeah. But this guy was big. And um and I sort of rushed over and apologised it profusely and uh, you know, complimented him on his large frame and uh all of that kind of stuff. You probably overdid it a bit. I probably did I probably overdid it.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

I think you use too many words when it's unnecessary. Yeah, well. You could just go sorry about the dog and move on. Yeah. You don't have to turn it into a mini-series of apology and compliments.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Well, you know, I thought that would be more fun.

SPEAKER_00 16:49

That is but that's your way. That's your way.

SPEAKER_02 16:51

But he was terrific. He said, Oh yeah, no, no problem. He was lovely. No problem, yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:55

And that's what you want, right?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

That's what we want for from other people, because occasionally either ourselves or our sorry, either our animals or ourselves when we are less than our best, we occasionally um intrude into other people's quiet and and happy existences. And and yeah, what do you do about that? Do you get really uptight and outraged when people don't behave well around you? Or do you just let it go through the keeper?

SPEAKER_00 17:24

Well, as we know, the the the most ridiculous, you know, impulse that we have is getting up in the morning and going about our business and being surprised when people don't behave well. Right? It's ridiculous. Because when have you ever gone through a day and everybody has been awesome? It just doesn't happen, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:45

Oh, I've had a couple of nice days with Harry, you know.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

I don't mean Harrison.

SPEAKER_02 17:49

Harrison tends to be you know fabulous all the time.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Yeah, Harrison is we're not talking about Harry. I'm talking about as you go through your day.

SPEAKER_02 17:55

Oh, when you bump into like randoms.

SPEAKER_00 17:57

There's randoms, you know, there'll be somebody that doesn't let you into a lane or or pushes in front of you or is rude or says something inappropriate to you or something, right?

SPEAKER_02 18:06

Some people throw around statistics that say that you know, 90% of the of the people in the world are fundamentally decent and it's only 10% of bastards that you have to watch out for. Are you familiar with that?

SPEAKER_00 18:18

I just think I think most people are decent. Most people are decent. Why why we wouldn't be functioning.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 18:22

Society would not, if we were just anarchic and and and terrible and all out for ourselves, then we wouldn't be functioning, there'd just be, you know, anarchy and death. Yes. So I mean the back to this notion of um being over controlling, which means trying to control someone or something excessibly, which can manifest as macromanaging manipulation or a constant need for a specific outcome.

SPEAKER_02 18:46

Okay. Now that so so is this you you you when you're talking about, you know, how I put my clothes in the cupboard?

SPEAKER_00 18:54

How do we get onto that? We're not talking about your untidiness and my need for control around that.

SPEAKER_02 19:01

Aren't we? No. Just read that. Well, give me that definition again.

SPEAKER_00 19:04

No, I'm not gonna not give you that definition again. It is well documented.

SPEAKER_02 19:10

You call it messiness, I know, but it's just it's it's around having things, you know, available and and within sight. Cause as you're saying, you know, when people are over controlling, it's not such a pleasant experience for them. So maybe you could have a more pleasant experience.

SPEAKER_00 19:26

Or and just live in absolute chaos and mess. No, no, no. How would Harrison and I operate?

SPEAKER_02 19:31

It's not absolute chaos.

SPEAKER_00 19:32

How would Harrison and I operate if we had to record the podcast being surrounded by half of your wardrobe on the floor?

SPEAKER_02 19:42

How how would you cope? Yes. Well well, Annie, that is up to you. Thank you for that. Thank you for that. I I can't tell you that you have to be developing psych psychological flexibility. Um but if you're able to exercise it at that moment, then it would probably be less upsetting and destabilizing for you.

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Anyway, enough about me and you and your messiness and my need for some order in my life. And let's go No, we're not going back to that. Okay, no. Or I'll get or I'll send a picture next time you're left to your own device and I'll post it on the podcast.

SPEAKER_02 20:15

I'll forget I'll forget about the messiness. I will forget about the messiness. But as we proceed, uh I I must confess to you, I'm thinking about the way that you like to control what I eat. You know, the like the food that I consume in your life.

SPEAKER_00 20:28

You talk to me about the fact you would like to be thinner.

SPEAKER_02 20:32

Sorry?

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yes, you say, oh Just a minute.

SPEAKER_02 20:35

That's a bit personal, Annie. You say to me, I didn't give you permission to disclose that you know that I wish I was ten kilos lighter, you say. And that's right, and I and I realise that I'm actually trying to overcontrol um in that situation, and I should just let my body take the shape that it it it it it's it's headed towards.

SPEAKER_00 20:55

So what the actual is wrong with you? What what you just want to descend into some into some cholesterol um ridden high blood pressured future.

SPEAKER_02 21:06

Well what make what makes you think that that is my destiny? Um if I'm gonna do that.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Well, why are you worried about the ten kilos?

SPEAKER_02 21:11

Sorry, why do you mention it? Well, I I I I know that I'd move more gracefully without it.

SPEAKER_00 21:19

You'd go back to your dancing career.

SPEAKER_02 21:21

It'd be less pressure on my knees, yes.

SPEAKER_00 21:23

Yeah, you've said all this. You said I wish I was thinner.

SPEAKER_02 21:26

Yeah, yeah, well, yes. So this is a result of that's at certain times, you know. That have I said, gee, I wish I had any looking at everything that I eat and commenting on it.

SPEAKER_00 21:35

Alright, I won't anymore. Okay. Knock yourself out and eat a block of cheese. Just don't eat. Hang on a second. Hang on, hang on. Don't say to me ever again, gee, I wish I was thinner. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 21:45

That's I'm I'm happy to make that extra mate.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Okay. Or you can't.

SPEAKER_02 21:50

My five, that's it.

SPEAKER_00 21:51

Like try again. Right. There it is. Okay, so you don't talk about the fact that your knees are bad because you've got extra kilos and you and that you can't fit into your pants.

SPEAKER_02 22:06

I have never I've never complained about not being able to fit into my pants. I'm not it's not that bad. I mean the way that you're talking about it, it's like I'm it's like I'm Brendan, what's his face, from the whale. Brendan, Brendan Fraser.

SPEAKER_00 22:20

I'm just trying to talk about the woman. Can I go back to the woman on the beach?

SPEAKER_02 22:24

You started talking about being over controlling, and I was just trying to get a sense of whether the over controlling that you were talking about was the way that you relate to me in with respect to the objects that I need in order to get through life and what I eat. Okay, I'll be quiet.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

Thank you. So, over controlling means trying to control someone or something excessively, which can manifest. Do you want it would you like this to be your podcast? Is that what you'd like? I'll give it a shot. Go on. We've already mentioned that. I'm not going back already.

SPEAKER_02 22:59

I heard the term control something uh excessively.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

It can manifest as micromanaging. I'm going to ask you to leave the podcast. I'm just going to talk about it myself any minute. Micromanaging manipulation or a constant need for a specific outcome. So if we go back to the beach, which is what I was talking about.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Other people now. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:20

You know that married men live longer because of their wives, right?

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's um it's um it's it's surprising, but um, you've told me that many times. Where's your source for that? Who did who did the study? I'm going to Can you actually quote the evidence?

SPEAKER_00 23:39

I'm going to.

SPEAKER_02 23:41

Um not that I need, you know, I trust you.

SPEAKER_00 23:45

Anyway, let's just go back to the woman on the beach.

Letting Go, Checking Bias, Moving Forward

SPEAKER_02 23:48

The woman on the beach. The string lipped woman. How how are you going to tell this story about your response to the string-lipped woman on the beach um without mentioning you?

SPEAKER_00 24:03

I I'm talking about me in relation to her. Okay, alright. All right. Can we just stay in that lane?

SPEAKER_02 24:08

Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure. Fatty. This is the this is the this is the speck of dust in her eye, is it? This is this is this is the speck of dust in your sister's eye that you are seeking to remove.

SPEAKER_00 24:22

Anyway, so she was looking for a specific outcome. Yes. Which was that she would be able to stand on the beach for Fluffy and there would be no interactions with other dogs.

SPEAKER_02 24:37

Yeah, no interference.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

Now, what happens when that dynamic that we're talking about there, which is that micromanaging over controlling, goes into areas like domestic abuse, because it's the same, it's exactly the same dynamic. This can I must have control over my wife and over my children, and if I don't, I'm going to get very, very angry and string-lipped about it. Yeah, so I mean, signs of that over control, and it was a woman on the beach, but I think there was also a man on the beach as well. So it's this sense of over control of the environment because I think what happens is that um the fear of uncertainty, they do not like being in an uncertain environment.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 25:27

Right? And then what happens is you know, you get excessive monitoring, um, jealousy, financial control, and difficulty accepting change. Right? So this what we witnessed on the beach. I know you're desperate to get back to me and talking to you about your mess and your No, no, I've forgotten about that. Oh, that's great. It's very flexible of you.

SPEAKER_02 25:46

So, Annie, I think the thing that you've focused on is the human tendency to to have a to have an urge, an urge to excessively control things, so that you can be certain about you know how the day's going to end or how the visit to the dog park or the beach is going to end. Yeah. So there's this there's this over reliance on being certain about what's going to happen. And then variations to the conditions threaten that in some way.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

That's right.

Closing Notes And Safety Reminder

SPEAKER_02 26:18

And so people get disappointed, they get angry.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah, and I have certainly seen that anger manifest in men um in that sort of dog park, dog beach environment.

SPEAKER_02 26:29

Right.

SPEAKER_00 26:30

Where um it's like this shouldn't be happening, and I need to reclaim control. And it just makes me think, I wonder where that ends.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

What do you know what I think I think the problem is that this shouldn't be happening? I think that that's the bit. Yeah, it's the idea that this shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't be happening to me.

SPEAKER_00 26:50

This shouldn't be happening because this is the you're talking about this is this is the mindset of the person with the over control.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Yeah, yeah, the open control. And when it becomes this shouldn't be happening, then that must rely on some internalized set of rules that when I come to the dog park and throw the ball, no other dog is allowed to take my ball. Yeah. When I drive down this road and I have to change lanes, people will make space for me. Yeah. You know, when I appear in public with my other half, I expect them to behave in a certain way. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 27:24

This shouldn't be happening. This shouldn't be happening. That's that's the under that's a really good thing. That's the underpinning thought. This should not be happening.

SPEAKER_02 27:30

Yes. That's it it reminds me of a um uh uh a friend of mine um years and years and years. This is this is thirty years ago when he was um he was dating a um uh a lovely young actress, and one day the actress decided that the relationship was no longer, so basically she dropped him. And he was so he was so angry. Um the words that he said was this goddamn wouldn't happen in America. So he was he was a real Americanophile and sort of you know fancied himself, right? Yeah, he was an Australian. James Dean.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

No, no, no, De Niro.

SPEAKER_02 28:06

Oh, did he? Okay.

SPEAKER_00 28:07

Yeah, he thought he was the Australian version of De Niro. Damn, this wouldn't be happening in America.

SPEAKER_02 28:11

This wouldn't be happening in America because if we were in America, then you would recognise that I'm something specific. And y and and and you would want to keep the relationship going.

SPEAKER_00 28:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's right. And I know who he dropped to, I remember now.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, so there's this there's this element of entitlement. I'm entitled to people behaving in this environment in the way that I want them to. Um I know you don't like me talking about football.

SPEAKER_00 28:36

And I go on.

SPEAKER_02 28:37

But when two football teams from our club, so I play with Beacon Hill No, hang on. I play with Manly Alambey Beacon No, I play with a Lamby Beacon Hill United, and there are several men's teams, and occasionally we we we have what we call the local derby. And it's the local derbies where people behave much worse than they do when we're playing any other team. People get really angry, um, and there's you know often fisty cuffs when we play aside who belongs to the same club as us, and I reckon it's because we sort of are entitled to expect better of our of our own of our own, you know. So if they go in for a hard tackle, then you know they've broken the rule. And so that's you know, because we feel entitled to good behaviour, that's right, we get angrier, we get more emotional.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think so much of it is predicated on just intolerance of change, you know, disliking surprises. Yeah. So if you go back to the dog beach, yeah, uh to that phrase which I think is perfect, which is this should not be happening. Yeah, I don't like the surprise. Why do I have to deal with it? I just want to come here, have a good time with my dog, and then go home again. And now I have to deal with things, and it's really to do with rigidity, isn't it? And of course, often that rigidity. Is also so if I look at my external environment and I have a rigid relationship with it, this is the way it should go. Then I probably have a rigid relationship with myself. I'm probably over-perfectionistic on the expectations I have of myself and other people. And it just, I mean, if anybody's listening out there and they're they themselves can recognize it in themselves or in their partners, it really does create a lot of conflict and drama and just misery. The other thing that I noticed was um that notion when you're walking, there's a narrow staircase down to the beach, and so it's sort of like a a dance where someone's walking up and someone's walking down and someone has to move to the side.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

You're balancing holding your thongs and pulling on the leaves.

SPEAKER_00 30:57

And then the dog does a poo in the middle of it, and you can't do it.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Occasionally you've got to stop and pick it up.

SPEAKER_00 31:01

And there is that interesting notion where like you and I will always move out of someone's way.

SPEAKER_01 31:09

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:10

Make room. And it's the people that have that sort of sense of status that just barrel through.

SPEAKER_01 31:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:16

That'll just keep walking and and sort of give you the death stare that somehow, how come you're in my way?

SPEAKER_01 31:23

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:24

I am trying this should not be happening. I am trying to get down to the beach and you are impacting on my progress.

SPEAKER_01 31:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

So I mean that sort of over-controlling over-controlling of the environment is just interesting and doesn't make for a joyous, happy, flexible environment.

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah, yeah, yeah. You rob yourself of just a sense of peace and um and community by over controlling those around you. Can I just contrast what we've been talking about here with our experience last night? Um last night Annie and I sort of wandered down to towards the beach. Awesome. And um, you know, we're taking a beach, different beach. We're taking a bit of a picnic um picnic dinner. Um and as we were work walking through the you know the various parks and areas on the way there, there were so many people who were out with their families and friends having parties. And I remember there was one group of um Chinese women who were in a circle and they were dancing, you know, dancing to the left, dancing to the right, clapping, turning around, laughing.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Having a lovely time.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

They were having a terrific time. There was a group of um young Brazilians. You could tell that they were Brazilians because they were they were kicking a football, they were standing in a circle and basically, you know, kicking and heading and kneeing the football up around. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 32:43

In the sort of the late afternoon sunshine. Late afternoon.

SPEAKER_02 32:46

There were people that had put up a um put up gazebos, gazebos, having barbecues.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

Oh, it was awesome.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

And I would say that most of the most of the people who were taking advantage of that evening were people who were clearly from non-English speaking backgrounds. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Well TY where we live is very multicultural, so I like it.

SPEAKER_02 33:04

Lots of Indian families. I know it's the Wiley at the moment. Um there were there there are lots of Arabic families, you know. There are there are women um who are sort of, you know, head to toe while they're swimming with their children in the surf. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Um and there was took a photo the other day at the beach, remember?

SPEAKER_02 33:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:21

There was a guy standing on the beach, and then the rest of his they were in the not is it the hijab? The fool. Yeah, yeah. And they were in the water standing, and he was taking a photo and I stopped and I and he got in and the four of them That's right, you took the photograph of them. Yeah, and they were so lovely and so um grateful.

SPEAKER_02 33:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:40

Um, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:42

Sometimes, sometimes um one of these groups will play music, you know. That's so the Chinese ladies were dancing to music. Um sometimes the Arabic folk will uh you know get their music up and they will dance to that. Now I can perceive that some of the people in that environment feel they should be entitled to a complete whitebred, you know, no cultural intrusion, no noise.

SPEAKER_00 34:06

That are some people that live in our environment. In the environment. Well, there was, as we know, as we know yesterday a terrible um anti-immigration march on in every um in in every major capital city in Australia.

SPEAKER_02 34:21

But can I say Do they call it a freedom march or a Yeah, freedom march, it's anti-immigration. Yeah, freedom from yeah, I don't know, they're just idiots.

SPEAKER_00 34:28

And that they've just rebro they're rebranded anti-vaxxers, they just got a hate on something. And um it was very, very badly attended. It was sort of really super pathetic. They're all wrapped in these nylon Australian flags that were made in Chinese, and then you know, and then they go and eat, you know, Chinese or Indian food later. They're so dumb, it's so insulting, it's so awful for because um they blame um mass immigration, which to start off with is incorrect. We do not have mass immigration, but they blame the housing crisis on mass immigration, the whole thing's just a complete lie. Anyway, and then that happened, and then we go down to DY and in that sort of beautiful late afternoon, early evening with that golden light over the parkland. It was stunning, and the music and the sound of the different languages, it was beautiful, wasn't it?

SPEAKER_02 35:24

And and and and because we don't resist it, we don't feel entitled to it being exactly the way that we want, we get to feel part of a uh an international community, yeah, which is which is irreplaceable, it's priceless.

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Multicultural, it's beautiful. And this this notion of lack of is lack of um assimilation is just such a such a dog whistle. Anyway.

SPEAKER_02 35:47

Where do we land on this? You know, like what what could what can we take away from this in terms of you know what's a what's a what's what what's a good way to approach any situation where you don't overcontrol it. Start to feel okay.

SPEAKER_00 35:58

Okay, so if you if you're looking around your neighborhood, you know, and you see there are you know Asian shops and the Asian people frequent them and and there's there's people from Brazil and there's other ethnic cultures. You know, if you go into some entitled, over-controlled place and you're going to be unhappy. So check the data, go to the ABS, look at the Australian Bureau of Statistics and actually see the reality of immigration as opposed to getting caught up in some nonsense and just watch for over control. It's exactly the same as the dog park. Yes, watch for over control, let people be, and have a nice time.

SPEAKER_02 36:36

But but but but that doesn't rob you from the the ability to also if you see something that that genuinely does make you uncomfortable, like if the music is being played way, way too loud.

SPEAKER_00 36:47

Everything's nuanced, I'm not suggesting you just you'll just have to be prey to everybody else's wishes. But where we were yesterday was a very wide open space and it was a delightful environment. So people just cherry-pick the environment, use confirmation bias and say the immigrants are ruining everything, it's total nonsense. It's like other dogs are ruining everything. Go out into the world and just accept that you know it's a it's a varied wonderful, exciting place to be and just try and move out of that over controlled space. That's my advice.

SPEAKER_02 37:17

Yeah, so less control, more just look at what's happening and yeah, go with the flow to see what happens.

SPEAKER_00 37:24

So um, thank you for tuning in. Thank you, David, for your contribution.

SPEAKER_02 37:29

Are you sure about that?

SPEAKER_00 37:30

I I I was you were pretty annoying. Yeah, and um I will definitely um I'll just won't mention the amount of cheese that you're eating late at night. Okay?

SPEAKER_02 37:40

Calcium for the bone.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

It's so important, David, to keep that calcium up. Yeah. Because God knows you could have a fall. Yeah, I could. And because you've shored yourself up with with with camember, I think you're going to be okay. Yes. And also the chocolate.

SPEAKER_02 37:56

This podcast is brought to you by Double Brie. Avoid osteoporosis and eat more cheese.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

It's good. So from David and I here on the sunny northern beaches of Sydney in New South Wales, Australia. Thanks for tuning in. Stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Why Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the facts from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut. If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking at shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from White Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.