Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
Plato, Nietzsche and Ryder. What a line-up !
We explore how humour does real work: building critical thinking, lowering defensiveness, and fuelling social change, from pandemic myths to political power. Two kinds of laughter—herd and heights—show why some jokes harm and others heal, with practical ways to use comedy well.
• role of laughter in learning, groups, and connection
• comedy as a response to fear and frustration
• philosophers on humour from Plato to Nietzsche
• herd laughter versus heights laughter
• political mockery, late‑night satire, and why power hates jokes
• case study of Pete Evans and the cut‑through of Tom Gleeson
• RISE and Funny or Die driving legislative change
• self‑deprecation and avoiding punching down
• small steps to craft humorous messages for impact
• safety, critical thinking, and staying connected
Keep your critical thinking hats on. And don't forget to subscribe, wait, and review the podcast, and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
Premium Peptides for Longevity, muscle growth , weight loss
Proudly sponsored by COUP — helping brands cut through the noise with bold, smart marketing. Visit the http://coup.co website or book a meeting with us at. https://go.oncehub.com/RequestMeeting
You are listening to the why smart women podcasts. The podcast that helps smart women work out why we repeatedly make the wrong decisions and how to make better work. From relationships, we're choices, finances, objectives, and tail smoothies. Every moment of every day, we're making decisions. Let's make some good questions. I'm your host, I'm your own. Really bad decisions. I've got this. And this podcast has been around to save me from myself. This podcast will give insights into the working of your own brain, which will blow your mind. I acknowledge the traditional owners of the land on which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. Today I am broadcasting from Sydney, New South Wales, Australia on the northern beaches. It is a beautiful spring day. Sorry to show off, but it truly is. And later on, I'll be going down for a swim in the ocean. David, will you be going for a swim in the ocean?
SPEAKER_01:Oh look, I would I would very much like to actually. I was I was thinking just then. You said that you were broadcasting, aren't you? Podcasting? Is it is it different? I think so. I think I think broadcasting would be birds being sent to a broad range of receiving devices, teleph televisions and radios and things like that. Maybe it is. We're we're podcasting from the northern beaches. Oh, we're podcasting. Not that it matters. It sort of doesn't. Not that it matters. I was just kind of I was curious about that particular thought.
SPEAKER_03:I get a bit vague. Anyway, wherever you are wherever you are in the world and welcome because we now have listeners in Jamaica.
SPEAKER_01:Oh my goodness. Gee, I hope the the Jamaicans are okay after the cyclone.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, I oh exactly.
SPEAKER_01:I mean that looks absolutely devastating.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Gee, guys, hope you're okay there. Um Hello to our listeners in Tokyo and Nova Scotia.
SPEAKER_01:And Nova Scotia, Canada. Lovely. And and and and all those closer to home as well.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, hello. Hello. Um, so this is part two of our podcast on humour and the uses of humour and you know, is is laughter handy? And today we're going to look at it in a more uh broader sense. So last in our last um edition we talked about um how laughter physically affects you, what it does to your brain, and how good it is to be able to laugh at um life's foibles and tribulations. And today we're going to broaden it out a bit. And I thought I'd s I thought I'd start by going back to 2021 when COVID hit. Yes?
SPEAKER_01:Well, yes, it I mean it was really 20 that it that it that it did hit. COVID 19. It emerged at the end of the year. Oh, that's true, yes. So so 20 into 21, yeah, it had a long tail, that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03:And I can remember when it um when it actually began and they talked about how long it was going to take them to develop a vaccine for it. And I I remember thinking at the time, this is awesome, because now we're in the middle of a pandemic. Um this is going to be the end of all the the sort of anti-vaxx activism. I thought that's gonna be the end of it. Everyone's gonna realise we're in this really dreadful situation, you know, the bodies were building up in New York, it was just all going haywire, you know, we had to you know, we we had to socially distance, we couldn't leave our houses, it was devastating. And I remember thinking, well, that's great, because finally they're gonna have to lay down and get vaccinated. And in instead of that, what happened, David?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, people said no. They got worse. I mean, some did, not everybody did. There, you know, uh I think the you we have to acknowledge that the majority of the population actually um accepted the advice of the scientists and followed the rules and did what needed to be done, and thereby containing the the the devastating consequences of the of the virus.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, um and it's true. We we did we did quite well. We had very high vaccination rates, even though they're now dropping a bit because of the stupidity of the anti-vax movement and the fact that they're still banging on about turbo cancers and all the rest of it anyway. They're they're mad. Anyway, so um that happened and I became infuriated about this, about the lack of critical thinking. So, what did I do with my fury?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you you you wrote a second book.
SPEAKER_03:I wrote a first book.
SPEAKER_01:What what it was um Why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions 2021?
SPEAKER_03:Wasn't it?
SPEAKER_01:I thought it was earlier than that. Was it? I don't know. I could have my dates all wrong. Ah, no, that's right. No, yeah, uh Why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions was published in twenty-one. And um yeah, Why Smart Women Buy the Lies of Twenty Three. I am so sorry, Annie.
SPEAKER_03:I I don't care. I I'm terrible with dates anyway.
SPEAKER_01:I got that history wrong. So yeah, you were you were tremendously frustrated by the lack of critical thinking and you wanted to correct that. So did you write a you know dusty scientific serious tree ties on the nature of critical thinking? No. No, no, no, why not? Surely that's what was required.
SPEAKER_03:No, I did not.
SPEAKER_01:People needed to be corrected.
SPEAKER_03:Well, there's plenty of books on critical thinking, but they're all written by men and they're all pretty dry and academic. And I thought, because it was pretty important that we managed to get this point across that people were making very poor health decisions. So I wrote a comedic book, Why Smart Women Make Bad Decisions. Please, if you are listening to this, you can um you can get the audiobook if you're not so much a reader.
SPEAKER_01:It's been the audiobook is fabulous. It is. I actually reckon the audiobooks are even better than the the book experience. But then maybe that's because of the way that my brain works and I I like to listen to stories out loud. But the audio the audiobooks are fantastic and they are really funny. Some fantastic comedic performances from the actors.
SPEAKER_03:So I wrote this book that was comedic. So why would I use comedy and humor to actually extrapolate on something, to describe something, to challenge something that is so deeply, deeply important to me. Why would I do that?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, do you know what do you know that was rhetorical?
SPEAKER_03:Please answer.
SPEAKER_01:No, well the answer to that question, um it is not that that you thought that um that uh you know you needed to employ a tried and tested, you know, technique that would engage and transport readers, etc. You have instincts for comedy. You know, you wrote it that way because that's what you like to write. You a and and and I think that you you you write that way because you know that you like writing that way because you know the effect that humour just has on people. You know, you've done lots of theatre and um and there's nothing like doing a great play that's really, really funny and having an audience.
SPEAKER_03:Having the wave of an audio the the the laughter wave coming at you on stage, the ripple the ripple of laughter coming at you on stage, there is absolutely nothing like that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, it's it's absolutely joyous, and to know that you've kind of contributed in in making a you know an audience of five hundred people absolutely crack up and laugh together is tremendously satisfying. Sorry, go on. But I was gonna say, I mean, that's in the theatre. I know that when we go about designing a uh a development experience, a training programme, if we're looking at something like performance conversations or you know, how to induct somebody or how to, you know, help them to overcome, you know, psychological challenges and things like that. When we're teaching that stuff, we always dramatize in comedic um styles.
SPEAKER_03:Right? We know it has cut through that that laughter, um, if you have a group of people laughing, there is an automatic sort of receptivity in the brain of a group experience, and there's something about a group experience, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. When we laugh at the same things, there's a implicit message that we share the same values. I mean, think about that. Yeah. Um, why do, you know, why does an audience of five hundred people find the same thing funny? Well, they all share the same values around, you know, people being destabilized or people being deceptive or people being caught out.
SPEAKER_03:Um It's almost like a contagion as well, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's a it's a it's a contagion that travels because, again, we share the same values, which is a very psychologically, you know, satisfying and stabilizing experience.
SPEAKER_03:Did I tell you what happened when I took um Yo Yo and Ryder to the surf beach?
SPEAKER_01:Oh, you came back a bit frazzled after that.
SPEAKER_03:Well, well, yeah. So uh you know, we I I have spoken before on the podcast about the fact that Mona Vale Beach has now been designated a dog beach, and this is pr prior to Ryder's disaster with the Lululemon sock, yeah. Um, which he's still recovering from, and we've had to, you know, instruct Yo-Yo not to give him any more socks.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:Because she was behind it. Anyway, so I took them to the Monavale beach.
SPEAKER_01:They would have been very excited to arrive there.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, they were excited, and it was the most glorious, abundant, you know, wonderful sort of social experience. They were bounding through the waves and they just absolutely they loved it.
SPEAKER_01:There would have been at least a hundred doggies there, I would say.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, there was a lot of the doggies anyway, and so I was there because you were somewhere, and I was there on my own.
SPEAKER_04:Oh.
SPEAKER_03:So what happened was so they're bounding through this beautiful, and then guess to the time where you have to clear the beach because it's limited time. So I've got one lead and I've hooked one end into rider's collar. Now, the first thing that happened was that the the the clasp on the lead, right, yes, had gone crunchy because there was salt and I couldn't hook it on.
SPEAKER_04:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Right. So I'm hanging on to yo-yo with my left hand and rider with my right hand, and I had to say to some woman on the beach, would you mind? Because I do have um arthritis in my thumbs, would you mind clipping this onto the dog? So she said, sure. And then she tried and she said, Oh my god, I can't. I said, Never mind. So then I hooked the lead, I had yo-yo hooked, and then I threaded the lead through Ryder's collar and I made my way up the beach, right?
SPEAKER_01:This is a gripping amount of detail. It's gripping, but it's correct.
SPEAKER_03:And then um yo-yo did a poo.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:So then I've got to stop.
SPEAKER_01:What on the on the on the on the pathway back up? On the sand.
SPEAKER_03:I'm still on the sand. Keep up, keep up. I'm on the sand, I'm heading towards the pathway. It's a long way up. I'm on the sand. She does a poo. I've got to stop, I've got to pick that up. So I get halfway up the beach, then Ryder turns and sees a Labrador. So he then runs off. And what he does is he runs off and he runs off so quickly towards the Labrador, right? Towards the Labrador, who was back who was back down the beach at the and in the in near the near the foreshore. He runs off with such alacrity that he rips Yo-Yo's collar off her completely. So he then runs down the beach, he's then got the whole lead and Yo-Yo's collar. So I'm there, right? I've got now as we know, Yo-Yo is an escape artist.
SPEAKER_01:Yep.
SPEAKER_03:And what was about to happen? She was about to run off and I don't know, run to Manley or Adelaide or Perth or something. The dog's unstoppable, right? Yep, yep. So I've grabbed hold of Yo Yo just by her fur and I've still got the poo bag, right? Yes. I turn around and he's humping the Labrador. Well, he loves Labradors. He loves to hump Labradors. And especially right, doesn't he?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, yes. Well, it's true. Okay.
SPEAKER_03:I mean, I know he's your favourite dog, but he's got a bad habit.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yes. Right.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, so he's humping a Labrador.
SPEAKER_01:And I know that the Labrador's owner probably wouldn't have been terrible.
SPEAKER_03:The Labrador wasn't thought, and the owner wasn't thought. So then I had to say to this couple that were near me, can you please hang on to the black black dog? Don't let her go, there's no collar, while I go back and get him. So then this nice couple held on to Yo-Yo by her fur. I handed the girl the poo bag, she held on to that. I ran back down the beach. Right. Okay. I grab Yo-Yo off the Labrador. No, uh rider off the Labrador. So then he runs back into the surf. Right. So then he's in the surf after some other dog's ball, and then some owner's cranky because that they had that ball ownership bullshit going on. So then I get yo-yo out of the surf, I go back up the beach, he does a poo on the way.
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:So then I've got two poo bags.
SPEAKER_01:Two poo bags.
SPEAKER_03:I get up to two dogs. I get up to yo-yo, I manage to get the collar back on yo-yo, right?
SPEAKER_01:Yes.
SPEAKER_03:And then he ran off again.
SPEAKER_01:Right. This is a tremendous amount of detail.
SPEAKER_03:I know, but it's necessary.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, alright.
SPEAKER_03:It's interesting and necessary. Okay, all right, all right, all right.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so that you've got dogs going in all directions. All directions. And I'm very, very stressed.
SPEAKER_03:At this point, there's four people on the beach trying to assist me to get the dogs off the beach. Four people. And then Rowena, my friend, she came down with Jack, her Labrador, because I'd been so long.
SPEAKER_01:Not another Labrador.
SPEAKER_03:And he's very prone to humping, Jack.
SPEAKER_01:Did it did it cat did it cat did Jack catch Labradors? Sorry. Did Jack catch Ryder's eye?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So then Ryder ran towards Jack because he thought he's more humping opportunity. Right. So then I get onto the stairs and then Rowena comes back down, and at this point I can't hook either of the class in because they're so salt encrusted. Okay, yes. I get up to the top.
SPEAKER_04:Right.
SPEAKER_03:Now the peat then I get up the top. The dogs are covered in sand in my beautiful new electric car, right? Right. Then I go to the shower area. Or I'm trying to get the dogs underneath the shower. And this other boy comes over that had already helped me on the beach and he said, Let me help you. So I'm hanging on to Yo-Yo, and he's trying to push Yo-Yo into the shower stream. And then I turned the shower on, and Yo Yo wasn't under the shower, I was. So I was then drenched. The dogs were sand encrusted. Yes. I was completely drenched. Um I and then I tried to put my track pants back on. The whole thing was a disaster. I got them back in the car, and Rowena and I went and drank wine, and I looked homeless.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. This is dreadful. No, no, civilized woman should have to deal with such a disaster.
SPEAKER_03:I will never take those dogs to Mona Vale Beach on my own as long as I as God is my as God is my witness, I will never be hungry again. As God is my witness, I will never ever take those dogs the beach ever again. I hate them. I hated them so much at that point. All right. But then after I got in the car and we decided to go and get a glass of wine, which I threw down my throat, berating the dogs at great lengths.
SPEAKER_01:What is this? Is this ten o'clock in the morning?
SPEAKER_03:No, darling, it's five o'clock in the afternoon. Okay, the But don't day drink the twilight up.
SPEAKER_01:The twilight show.
SPEAKER_03:When have you ever known me to day drink?
SPEAKER_01:I we should start.
SPEAKER_03:I don't I don't day drink. I will never day drink, I don't like it. Anyway, so then we got there and then we sat there and I was sopping wet in just I looked homeless. I don't mean to laugh at the homeless, that was mean, I would track that. No, I won't, it's true. I did look homeless. And we sat there with me hating on the dogs and we laughed a lot about that. That's all I've got to say about it.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so okay, and and the moral of the story is go on. I don't know you're telling the story. It's your moral.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah, I mean it's back to that point, and we are going to I had to tell that story though, because I had to get it off my chest.
SPEAKER_01:If you don't if you don't laugh, you'll cry.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I could've it's a bit like the the um the bush turkey on the on the on um The brush turkey. Bush.
SPEAKER_00:Bush, okay. Bush turkey.
SPEAKER_03:If you don't, you know, laugh at this situation, then you get upset. And I could have got really upset because I was very cold and wet and and the dogs were awful.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But yeah. I'm glad you didn't. It's a bit of a first-world problem. You know, your your dog's running off when you take them to Montevideo Beach for a swim.
SPEAKER_03:Well, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Keeping the sand out of your new electric car.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, it does sound pretty. It is a bit special, isn't it?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:But it's my reality.
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. And when you're in the middle of it, I think what you're saying is that it it it two things helped. Number one was the ability to laugh at it, and the second was the wine. And your friend, Rowena.
SPEAKER_03:No, also on the beach. On the beach. That was my point. I knew there was a there was that on the beach.
SPEAKER_01:The kindness of strangers.
SPEAKER_03:I'm relying upon the kindness of strangers. On the beach, we were also laughing, and there is that collective experience of laughter. So back to the notion, I guess, of social change, comedy and social change, which is back to my book. I've really diverted us then with the dog story. Sorry, everybody, but it's quite a good story, don't you?
SPEAKER_01:Actually, the the the the story that you child just told was very similar to the story, the the opening, you know, the opening scene of uh Why Smart Women Buy the Lies. Yeah. When when your protagonist is uh is questioning why being a smart woman she chose to to buy a large caramel grudel.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, that's that's exact that's exactly right. The beginning of my book, I couldn't get the the character couldn't get the dog into the car. And you know, it was interesting how I went from look how wonderful and glorious these canine creatures are, you know, frolicking freely in the waves and playing with all their you know their mates to I hate them so much and why didn't I buy a small dog like a Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, bastard dogs.
SPEAKER_03:If I'd got a Pekaneese, I could have just picked a Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_01:A Pekaneese?
SPEAKER_03:What are they called? What are they called?
SPEAKER_01:They're called brush dogs. No, peekinees.
SPEAKER_03:What?
SPEAKER_01:They're they're peekinees.
SPEAKER_03:Aren't they Pekineese?
SPEAKER_01:Pekineese? What? Pekane's.
SPEAKER_03:Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01:They're Pekineese dogs.
SPEAKER_03:Are you sure?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. But they're not Pekaneese.
SPEAKER_03:I've always called them Pekineese.
SPEAKER_01:Pekinees. Like Pic.
SPEAKER_03:Like a p a Pekinese.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no, they're dogs from Peking.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, are they?
SPEAKER_01:From Peking. That's why they are Pekineese dogs.
SPEAKER_03:I didn't know that.
SPEAKER_01:I think I think it's true.
SPEAKER_03:Okay. Anyway, to my point, I'd wished frequently when they're presenting me with these problems that I had two peekin's. Uh-huh. I could pick them up under one one arm each, one hand each, and shove them in water.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, indeed.
SPEAKER_03:And they're sohum in the sink. And the fur wouldn't collect, you know, the fur's not then going to collect the the sand, like yo-yo does.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so you're full of regret for buying large sandy dogs and you don't let it completely overwhelm you because you're with a friend, you have a glass of wine.
SPEAKER_03:Well I did it at the time I was pretty overwhelmed and feeling a bit humiliated about my lack of control. And I think people were looking at me going, but maybe they weren't looking at me going, What's wrong with you?
SPEAKER_01:Uh spotlight effect.
SPEAKER_03:Spotlight effect. I think they were just they were quite compassionate and nice and we laughed. So we did a lot of laughing.
SPEAKER_01:And and and and there you go, most of the people in the world are good. To my point. To the point.
SPEAKER_03:It doesn't mean you don't have to be careful about people who are not good.
SPEAKER_01:Some people are not good, but some people, but most people are pretty good.
SPEAKER_03:So back to the notion of humour and laughter, and let's let's talk about it in the role of social change. Because that was my thing on my book. I wanted social change. I wanted people to understand that to apply some critical thinking to the vaccine question was a really, really good idea and not get caught up in conspiracy theories.
SPEAKER_01:Can I tell you a little bit of research that I've done into the um the attitude of the ancient philosophers around humour? Please do. And laughter. I mean, you know, we're saying that this is a good thing, you know, that it's a it's very helpful for us to be able to laugh at our misery. Plato didn't think it was good, did he? No, no, no, no. I mean, Plato, Aristotle, the entire the the Stoics, they thought that laughter was actually intemperate. You know, that it we that it actually represented a loss of control. I do think that those ancient Greeks, as fabulous as they were, I think they probably took themselves a bit too seriously.
SPEAKER_02:Taking yourself seriously is a very, very, very desperately bad thing too.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and and and it could be because, you know, those ancient Greek societies were so jolly patriarchal, um, and uh, you know, all the boys were trying to outcompete one another with how you know meaningful and wise they were. And this idea that that humour was a good thing, well, no, it's not, because when we laugh, we lose control. Um and so so so laughter as a um as a social activity um in some instances has been admired and praised, and in other instances it's been strongly criticized.
SPEAKER_03:Well, I guess what i guess the the the underlying question would have to be what is the point of the humour and the laughter? Well because it may be cruel or it may be helpful, correct?
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Um I mean I think we can cut forward to you know a couple of thousand years from uh Aristotle and Plato to a philosopher that to be honest I never really associated with humour and laughter, and that is the uh the nihilist, Frederick Nietzsche. You know, you know, we we we we know about Frederick Nietzsche.
SPEAKER_03:Isn't Nietzsche the whole existential business?
SPEAKER_01:No, he's a nihilist. Yeah. You know, I mean, you know, his his his view is that you know we live in this, you know, mechanistic universe, you know, nothing has any meaning whatsoever. Um it's just the meaning that we make of it. Uh, and uh you know it's it's a um it's a it's a window into just how pointless and silly and and brutal human life can be, which all sounds rather dark. But Nietzsche actually describes what is one of the most optimistic and joyful um modes of humour um that is in the literature. But we'll start with um the negative one. I mean, Nietzsche himself recognised that when people get together, they can sometimes laugh in ways that are really cruel.
SPEAKER_03:Like what?
SPEAKER_01:Well, he he referred to this as the laughter of the crowd. So, you know, uh in the in the in the AFL in a schoolyard. Well, okay, we can start in the schoolyard, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So like a kid falls over.
SPEAKER_01:A kid falls over.
SPEAKER_03:People go, ha ha ha ha ha, loser.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, loser, loser, loser, you know? Uh and that happens in the playground. Now, unfortunately, the same dynamic was happening at football grounds with the AFL, um, and in particular the racial vilification of uh great players like Eddie Betts um and let me find his name. What's it who who was the great who was the Good Adam Good. Adam Goods, yeah. Eddie Betts.
SPEAKER_03:Are you impressed I knew that?
SPEAKER_01:I am I am super impressed that you knew that.
SPEAKER_03:I I came up with a sporting name.
SPEAKER_01:Yes, and uh and and Harrison's probably going to edit it out.
SPEAKER_03:No, he's not. He's gonna leave it in.
SPEAKER_01:Don't we don't we need to protect your brand that you are you know hostile to any football references and things like that?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but I'm just I'm just so marvellously intelligent.
SPEAKER_01:So Eddie Betts, Adam Goods. I mean, Adam Goods, he was booed um by crowds at games, and people would laugh at it. Yeah, I mean it was this mocking. It was it was a mocking laughter, and that's a great example of the laughter of the herd. It's contemptuous, it's mocking, it's superior, um, and it's not the kind of not the not the kind of humour that creates a lot of value for for us as a society.
SPEAKER_03:Horrible, horrible.
SPEAKER_01:But Nietzsche contrasts this laughter of the herd with the laughter of the heights.
SPEAKER_03:Um hang on, so with that laughter of the herd, I guess that gets into that whole area of um sort of like a contagion, isn't it? Like you if you laugh cruelly at somebody, um, because we like the idea of being part of an identity, you know, a team identity, right? Yeah, don't we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. People are desperate for an identity and something that they can say, I belong to this group.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right? So if you laugh cruelly, and I might be sitting next to you going, I really I don't find that funny, but because uh my identity is tied up, it's identity protective cognition.
SPEAKER_01:That's right. I mean you you only have to, you know, imagine the last MAGA rally that you uh that you attended or that you watched. I mean Donald Trump isn't master.
SPEAKER_03:For anybody who doesn't live in America like we don't, um just in case you're you've been living under a rock for the last you know three years.
SPEAKER_01:Donald Trump's you know, make America great.
SPEAKER_03:Again.
SPEAKER_01:Make America great again.
SPEAKER_03:And Maha. Make America healthy again by not using vaccines and not and avoiding seed oils. Oh my god.
SPEAKER_01:Okay, so you know there's there's lots to to laugh at about this. But I mean I if you if you remember Trump's um Trump's impersonation of the um I think it was a cerebral palsey reporter.
SPEAKER_02:Oh my god, that was so cruel.
SPEAKER_01:And everybody laughed at that. You know.
SPEAKER_03:He gave them permission to. Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:And you know, and and and Trump does this um does this black humour, you know. Let's give the let's give law enforcement one day to act without without any guardrails, you know, go in and and and and and beat up the bad guys, you know, beat up the the enemy within. And again, you know, it's like there's a there's a laughter with that. Um and it is, yeah, contemptuous, it's superior. Um what it does is it's mocking it's mocking because it reinforces us and them. You know, we are better than them and we get to laugh at you. So that's that's that's your last thing.
SPEAKER_03:So that's the the the sort of the the laughter of sort of superiority, isn't it? Yeah, that's right.
SPEAKER_01:Um the the laughter of the heights, as he describes it, it's when you laugh, um, and it's kind of just like a joyful release. So um like what? Like um okay, you know how sometimes when people have a like a like a near death death experience, you know, they they might have to swerve in traffic or or they you know they avoid the plane crashes and they're the only survivor.
SPEAKER_03:Is that a bit dark?
SPEAKER_01:Gee, that's you know, that's way dark. Um does that work? When you survive something, and you know when people laugh in response to a traumatic event? Um or a or a um or having survived a a risky uh activity and we laugh, Nietzsche referred to this as the laughter of the heights.
SPEAKER_03:So let's just say you go and bungee jump.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Which I would never do because I don't want my retinas to detach.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, okay. But you do the the bungee jump, you've got all the tension beforehand, away you go, you do the jump, and then you are laughing, you know, maniacally at the end of the uh elastic band after your bungee jump. Laughter not me, because I wouldn't so you're not gonna do that okay, so um But you might. Let me think. When have I when have I seen you um do something like that?
SPEAKER_03:Um probably never because I don't take physical risks.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:I'll take risks like I'll do a comedy thing in front of six hundred people. Yes. I'll do that sort of risk, but I would I don't do physical the big the biggest riskiest thing I do is sprush about in the shallows in winter. It is yeah Yeah, okay, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So um so so so let's just acknowledge that that there are there are these at least two different ways of using laughter. Number one, to be contemptuous, number two, to actually have that joyful release that you're you know that you've survived, uh, and that you know that you're basically dealing with whatever life throws at you. The laughter of the heights. Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:So how how do all these I mean, because when when I when I think about um the most potent and accurant accurate commentators of social issues, in my mind, the ones that have the most accuracy are comedians.
SPEAKER_01:Oh yeah. Oh absolutely, yes.
SPEAKER_03:You know, they tend to be able to dig through and now why is that and why are that and as you and if you think about it, what is causing the most threat to um to Trump? Who who does he want to shut down the most?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, when you when you're talking about this, I think of Stephen Colbert, and yes, his show has been cancelled, it will end in March.
SPEAKER_03:So if anybody's uh listening to this, it is not either American or watches American TV in Australia. Um Stephen Colbert is a late night host in America, along with Jimmy Kimmel and along with Seth Meyer and other ones.
SPEAKER_01:And and Kimmel was also taken off air um because of you know comments that he made about Charlie Kirk that were in no way inflammatory, but you could tell that the um the administration was was looking for an excuse. There was an uproar, and Kimmel's back.
SPEAKER_03:Okay, so what happened was you're going too quickly on that. So Jimmy Kimmel uh made comments about Charlie Kirk, who was recently assassinated, who was a right wing supporter of Donald Trump. And I think that the most disturbing thing about this, and which sort of helps you to understand the power of comedy, is that Trump is so threatened by these comedians that he agitates for the great big corporations who actually own them to.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so you've got um uh Seth Myers um is now getting veiled threats in um in Trump's tweets where he thinks that um Seth Myers, because of the comedy routines that he does, he said it's maybe illegal, which is particularly frightening. 100% illegal. Yeah, 100% illegal No, no, no, no, it was uh 100% unfunny or he has no talent.
SPEAKER_03:No, no. He said it was probably a hundred percent illegal to say anti-Trump things.
SPEAKER_01:Probably a hundred percent. So um so so so yes, it's getting under their skin. It's getting under Trump's skin.
SPEAKER_03:Um now He doesn't like being mocked. People in positions of power um w um well, we often find, and if you if you look at this historically, people in positions of power do not like being mocked because what mockery does is it takes the seriousness out of their positions, it diminishes them and they don't like it.
SPEAKER_01:Well well actually I think it does something something before that, and that is it actually draws attention. It it it draws attention to the thing that that that that that needs to be let's see, that needs to be evaluated. It draws attention to it. Um and because it's funny and we can expect that people are gonna laugh at it, then people are much more likely to tune in to something that is funny. Um the thing about all of these comedians, and I've gotta say, we have to include South Park uh on the list, which is diabolically um uh you know courageous and inflammatory, you know, the size of Donald Trump's body parts and um you know his motivation in terms of getting a few.
SPEAKER_03:And maybe what it does is it just it lowers um it dis it disarms people, don't you think?
SPEAKER_01:Well it it it disarms people who who want to say, look, we we we we shouldn't look at this, you know, nothing to see here. No um we are looking because this is actually funny. Um these comedians they they do play um uh t two games at the same time. Uh on one hand there are the jokes, and on the other hand is the social commentary. And you will see all of these all of these comedians, Colbert, Kimmel, Myers, you'll see South Park, um, you'll see in Australia, you know, people like Sean McCalleth or or Kitty Flanagan or uh and Tom Gleason, you know, we have we have Australian comedians who are you know obskew uh the the sacred cows um and and and building comedy shows on on social commentary.
SPEAKER_03:Remember, so somebody like um Pete Evans, who was a um Pete Evans, who was a My Kitchen Rules. My Kitchen Rules, he was a very famous, um very good looking chef, charming. Yeah, yeah. And what happened was he completely lost the frigging plot. Like he went so far down the rabbit hole of conspiracy thinking that he he was fired from everything. He used to write um comedy books, not comedy books, cookbooks. He used to write cookbooks, and then he wrote one that suggested giving um babies bone broth because he was into the stupid paleo diet at the time. Anyway, that was taken off the shelves. He's a complete lunatic now. He's got the worst haircut. He's got a haircut that's shaved at the side and looks like a a possum has taken residence on his head. It's the worst haircut like ever.
SPEAKER_01:You're the detail queen today, aren't you? Yeah. All all all of these digressions.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, but I'm right about the haircut.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, you're absolutely right about the haircut.
SPEAKER_03:Anyway, so the thing is that Pete Evans um, you know, is now the favourite of the conspiracy theorist mob, right? He's the favourite of the anti-vaxxers because no vaccine is going near his temple, even though he fills it with whatever else he's taking. Also, his wife is full of Botox. No, his wife, his girlfriend. So, like, I don't know what's going on there. You know, they won't have a vaccine, but they'll have neurotoxin anyway. So he was getting pretty influential, and then Tom Gleason on Hard Quiz had an absolute shot at him. And I remember looking at it at the time and going, there's the potent response. That is going to diminish him more than people going online debunking what he was saying. One line from Tom Gleason that was mocking him was way more influential.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And and and you know, you you think about the the sort of the really famous comedians who are at the top of their game. You've got Ricky Gervais. You've got totally, totally. You've got David Sh Dave Chappelle, um Sarah Silverman, um Is it Nicky Nikki Trammel? Nicky Gamble. No, forget that last one. Forget that. Um you've got Chappelle, um, you've got Sarah Sarah Silverman. You said that. I know, I was giving him a couple of you've got Silva Silver Silverman. You've got Michelle Wolf.
SPEAKER_03:Oh she's fantastic.
SPEAKER_01:And um I mean, you know, Michelle Wolfe came to prominence when she did the um the the White House correspondence dinner. My goodness, how has the White House correspondence community been diminished in the last few years? But yeah, I mean these um the comedians they have this this this this each way bet. It's just a joke, but actually their social commentary um is extremely well thought out. Um all of these people that we have mentioned are without doubt above average intelligence, you know, they are all geniuses in their own way with incredible critical thinking skills, with incredible th critical thinking skills, and they can they can find the preposterous nature of the propositions that are coming from the targets of their humour, uh, and they can find ways of building them into stories, and they are tremendously funny. So this is how humour can actually be harnessed in order to drive social change.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, and so I think you know, we're all I think all of us and probably all my listeners at various times in their lives are frustrated by something that is going on socially. Are we not?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:There's always something on you know, in the stratosphere where you're like not the stratosphere, there's always something in the environment and you're like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me that you're actually going to propagate that notion?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I I I would like to see the federal opposition in Australia actually get their their their their act together so that they can be a useful opposition and hold the government to account. And not just talk about t-shirts around the stuff that matters.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. So what can like what can we do as individuals? Just individuals in our community or in maybe not just you know, small groups, small communities, how can we use humour because what happens is I think we end up feeling so powerless, especially at the moment in this current social atmosphere when there's just so much rubbish being spoken. I mean, I've got my voice because I've got the podcast where I can debunk and challenge. Yeah. Yeah. But what can what can listeners do when you're frustrated? How can you use humour to challenge the things that are happening in your communities?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, is that um is that is that is that a rhetorical? It's not rhetorical. It's not rhetorical. Would you like me to have a crack at answering? Have a crack, have a crack, you're good at having a crack. Well, I reckon the first thing to do is to work out is to work out it is is to think critically about the way that you are reading the situation. And if you are going to be using humour, is it the humour, the laughter of the of of of the crowd? You know, are you using humour to simply denigrate, um, to demonstrate your superiority, you know, to create an us in them, to remind the others just how how how inferior they are?
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, please, if you happen to be racist and listening, do not you do not use humour to further your racist notions. I don't think anybody listening to this is going to be racist. Yeah. If you are racist, go away.
SPEAKER_01:Well, some some there is a point of view that we're all racist. You know, that we are actually all racist. That is the human condition. Um tribal.
SPEAKER_03:Well, we challenge our things to be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01:We're tribal, don't we? And the way that we are raised will turn that particular, you know, instinct or intuition into something that is.
SPEAKER_03:I wish you hadn't said that.
SPEAKER_01:Okay.
SPEAKER_03:Anyway, keep going all right.
SPEAKER_01:So how how how how do you want to use the humour? Or is it the humour of actually just, you know, taking our attention to it, um, acknowledging the fact that this really shouldn't be happening, you know, it really shouldn't be happening that, you know, America's great institutions are being dismantled. It really shouldn't be happening that the Australian opposition are, you know, completely incapable of working out what it is that they should be on, focusing on. Um, this really shouldn't be happening, that my dogs are behaving are misbehaving at the beach and I can't get them under control. And when there's that when there's that laughter of of of recognition, um, we're actually laughing about our capacity to accept and survive those things as much as it is about drawing attention to it.
SPEAKER_03:What can they do to actually affect change by using humour?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I mean, if you're giving advice to somebody, I think it would be important to establish whether the person you were giving advice to felt that they can be funny. You know, do the do they have the writing skills, do they have the narrative skills? Can they tell a joke? Yeah. You know, a lot of people say, Oh, look, don't ask me to tell you a joke. I asked Harrison to tell me a joke yesterday and his face went completely blank.
SPEAKER_03:Harrison, really, disappointed. So I mean, okay. I can't I I'm not one for jokes either.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Well, yeah, but you are one for telling funny stories. I am. Um, and the thing about your funny stories is that you always cast yourself as someone who is um a bit out of control, you know. You're very self-deprecating with the funny stories.
SPEAKER_03:Yes, because that b because if you're going to be funny, then you can't look like you're in control all the time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_03:And also people are way more interested in our failures.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Right? Than it's it's you know, people that you know I've people I've come across in my life, and whenever they tell you a story, they're always the heroes of their own story. And honestly, I want to go to sleep listening to them.
SPEAKER_01:So I think that the the simple piece of advice is don't take yourself so seriously. Is that right?
SPEAKER_03:I I think so.
SPEAKER_01:And also I mean, I I I actually reckon that Aristotle, Plato, and the Stoics took themselves very, very seriously. And I think that that's why they give humour a bad rap.
SPEAKER_03:But you know, if you're in a community, right, and you're you know, like yesterday I was down at at the the beach, it sounds like that's all I do. You're a lady of leisure. I'm not, I'm very busy. And the man next to me, which is just always the way, you know, he was nice. He was one of those sort of deeply suntanned Australian men of a certain age with a with a sort of a small dog staring at the beach. And he, of course, I he said, you know, something about the beach or something, or there was more whales, and I said, Oh, that'd be climate change. He said, I don't believe in that. And I went, ah, yeah, of course you don't. Because you can't see it with your own eyes. So do we have, you know, funny little I don't know, bits of repartee? How do we challenge that sort of thinking with humour?
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, I mean, I think I think I think unfortunately this does require a bit of perspective. I'm sitting next to somebody who doesn't think that climate change is real, um they feel comfortable in articulating that perspective to an absolute stranger. Um I can't control them or the way that they think, you know. Isn't it funny that we sometimes have to deal with people who are just completely clueless? And then you laugh it off.
SPEAKER_03:But how how do I affect change?
SPEAKER_01:Well, you don't bother affecting change with him. Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_03:Um I didn't either. No. I thought he also looking at me going, I'm a female of a certain age, and he had that absolute, you know, patriarchal thing going on. Like, why would you challenge me?
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think that what you might end up doing is is is um is incorporating some elements of that conversation and that gentleman into a character that you'll write in in a in a in a story. I will, and that's me.
SPEAKER_03:And that's me, you know, I I am a writer and I can use this podcast as a as a as a loudspeaker for my opinions. But I guess I'm trying to um to say to people who don't have a podcast and who don't write, we can laugh at these individual situations when you get so frustrated. But also I think we can find like-minded people and we can craft something out of that thinking in some modality, don't you think?
SPEAKER_01:I think that if you apply critical thinking to that process of finding humour in it, I think if you want to apply critical thinking and some self-awareness, you will work out whether what you are doing with your humour is denigrating that individual or actually laughing at the fact that given the nature of humanity, there are a whole lot of people that we actually can't control. We can't, but that we accept that. Um we can't control what they do. Sometimes we can't control the impact that they have on us, you know. I'm so discouraged about people and climate change, I'm just gonna, you know, go home and and burn a whole lot of fossil fuels. Yeah, yeah. It's that that wasn't terrible.
SPEAKER_03:But I mean, as you but I'm thinking, you know, rather than okay, so you've laughed up the individual, but you understand that individual's thinking is part of a greater whole, so can you do something on social media? Can you use a social media platform to say something? I think we feel, I think we often feel that our voices are insignificant and we are just going to get lost in the noise. But I reckon it's worth having a shot.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Using some humour, finding a group that you that also want to affect social change, joining a group and using humor to out some of these opinions and belief systems that are actually causing damage to our society.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so so so we know that they exist. I mean, I look there is a there is a a good case study of of an organization that had a very strong social agenda. Tell me about that. Um so this was um this was an advocacy group called RISE. Um it was in the United States. They were advocates for sexual assaults, survivors' civil rights. So the court system wasn't terribly, you know, helpful when it came to helping survivors of sexual assault seek justice. Um and what the the RISE advocacy did was they partnered with a brand that you may know, Funny or Die. Absolutely. Now, funny or die, I I actually do think is a um is a good salient warning for people who are trying to use humour, and that is you have to be funny, otherwise you should be dead. Otherwise, otherwise, yeah. Yeah. So so funny or die. And there's something there's something kind of really edgy about the funny or die humour. We have a lot of SNL, sorry, Saturday night live performances. Um Will Ferrell, um uh Zach Um Garaphanakis, you know, these kind of acerbic comedians do stuff with funny or die. So they used funny or die to generate um uh video, uh comedic video that exposed the absolute absurdity of the existing laws. And that video went viral, you know, because it was funny. Um and also because it was about addressing something in through. It had cut through. Yeah. And the result of that was that they had about they had over a hundred thousand signatures on a petition that helped pass a sexual assault survivors bill of rights act in the United States legislation. So, I mean, that was definitely a situation where they they took on the absurdity, they made it funny, they shared it. A whole lot of people realized that there was something that needed attention, and it got it.
SPEAKER_03:So I guess the um the upshot of all of this is that it's often um as we sit in our lives in the middle of these huge social waves of injustice that are washing over us, um, that we feel alone and unable to actually combat. And I guess what we're saying is don't feel alone. Um, do reach out to a group of people. There will be definitely be, you know, this is this is the upside of the internet, and the upside, you know, maybe there's even people that you physically know in your community, but reach out and see if you can craft a message that is does have some humorous aspects that will challenge some of these um these social elements of disinformation that are coming at us. See if you can, I don't know, get a group together, don't feel alone. Because you can always find a group of people, and if nothing else, you can laugh at the fact that you feel awful about it.
SPEAKER_01:Do you know I use humour in our relationship in order to, you know, deal with the challenges that you present me with? I don't do it terribly well.
SPEAKER_03:You've the if was that an example of it? That's terrible.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, well, no, no, no, no. Um like um like like sometimes um It's just about me complaining about the mess.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So you'll you'll you'll you'll be you'll be complaining about the mess. And uh and sometimes complaining about the mess is very constructive and it you know, it draws it to my intention.
SPEAKER_03:I don't want to go back into this. We're about to finish the podcast. Hurry up.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. So so so sometimes I try to make little jokes.
SPEAKER_03:Doesn't work. It's you're really bad at that. Well they never land well. All they do is irritate me. Well, this is pretty distinct.
SPEAKER_01:I think this is going to be an ongoing story. Um not that we'll necessarily bring it into the podcast, but um you know, you you've just gone from the you know, get together with a group of friends and you know take on a social issue. Um but I just think um it's also worth looking at how we sometimes do use uh Yes, whatever.
SPEAKER_03:Alright, so um Thanks so much, David, for being joining me on the podcast. I don't want to go back into the mess again. Okay, okay, so it's we will get go back there if you like, but not now. No, I mean it it all I tell you what, don't leave socks around.
SPEAKER_01:All all I I know the outcomes that you want, and in a in a in a clear and congruent in a clear and congruent manner, I'm simply trying to um to coach you on how to get the best out of me when it comes to keeping things tidy.
SPEAKER_03:Like an i like a hack. Yeah. Okay. And on that note of how David can coach me on how to manage him better. Better. I'll leave you with that. Thank you so much for joining me. Actually, the stuff on Nietzsche was really good. Okay, so good research. All right. Um, lovely to have you, and lovely to have you listeners join us for this journey on humour. Um, we hope you enjoyed it. Um, and wherever you are in the world, stay safe, stay well, keep your critical thinking hats on. See you later. Bye. Thanks for tuning in to Wise Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the facts and fiction and the other 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut. If you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in a street work, car park in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, wait, and review the podcast, and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking out shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from Why Smart Women see you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.
