Why Smart Women Podcast
Welcome to the Why Smart Women Podcast, hosted by Annie McCubbin. We explore why women sometimes make the wrong choices and offer insightful guidance for better, informed decisions. Through engaging discussions, interviews, and real-life stories, we empower women to harness their intelligence, question their instincts, and navigate life's complexities with confidence. Join us each week to uncover the secrets of smarter decision-making and celebrate the brilliance of women everywhere.
Why Smart Women Podcast
The Snarky Gherkin and a nazi walk into a bar……. Pt.1
We unpack how a once unified protest movement fractured into rival factions and why that vacuum drew in neo-Nazi groups. We explore the psychology that keeps people in, from grief and defiance to false cures, and share practical ways to build scepticism and safety.
• cooker wars defined and why the split matters
• loss of clear goals and rise of hero complexes
• vague slogans on migration, energy and corruption
• neo-Nazi involvement and the Camp Sovereignty attack
• recruitment tactics, grooming and tradwife nostalgia
• Andrew Tate’s misogyny and brittle masculinity
• harmful “cures” like aged urine and black salve
• how defiance sustains conspiracy identities
• practical scepticism for families and young people
• safety, boundaries and drawing lines against hate
And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies
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You are listening to the white smart women. Smart women went to the city. Finances. I acknowledge that traditional owners of the land in which I'm recording and you are listening on this day. Always was, always will be, Aboriginal land. Well, hello, smart women, and welcome back to the Why Smart Women Podcast. Um, today it is um a beautiful spring day here in Sydney, New South Wales, Australia. And as I said a couple of days ago, I don't want to brag, but it is pretty extraordinary. It's an extraordinary place to live. But of course, within living in this extraordinary place, as we do, there are still some crazy people that say some crazy things and organise some crazy marches. So um today I am talking to uh my favorite debunker in the entire world, and that is Mr. Snake Gherkin. Hello, Snaky.
SPEAKER_00:Hi, Annie. Nice for you to have me back. Thank you. It's always great.
SPEAKER_01:I know we've been trying to actually get you back now for almost two months, haven't we?
SPEAKER_00:I know my my ASIO agent just hasn't allowed me the time. I've I've keep keep asking him when when can I and just just to get approval and sign off and you just it just gets caught up in in the bureaucracy. So I'm glad um I've just gone rogue and and decided to come on. So he's gonna be able to do that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, so yeah, so I I hope that this doesn't I hope this doesn't result in in you being you know abducted and sent to a safe house or anything like that for the next six years.
SPEAKER_00:We'll see. We'll see. If I go missing, you know what's happened.
SPEAKER_01:So yeah, well uh but who would I report it to? You see, it's it's like black ops, isn't it?
SPEAKER_00:The the vegetable bureau or something. Yes, we'll figure it out.
SPEAKER_01:The Gherkin Bureau.
SPEAKER_00:That's right.
SPEAKER_01:So we're Snakey and I are joined today by my dog Ryder. Um, listeners can't see him, but listeners who have been um attuned to the story of Ryder's mishaps. Um I'll quickly fill him in. Uh Ryder fought swallowed a Lululemon sock, and um, that resulted in um a long and involved surgery, and um, but he's having his stitches out tomorrow.
SPEAKER_00:And uh let's get Ryder in the in the thumbnail that he could be a part of the the Gherkin verse officially.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, I I think he is in the Gherkin verse, and and we we know there is we know for a fact that there was something covert going on because I tell you, I'll tell you how I know that, Snarky, is because I don't wear Lululemon. So I don't I don't want to make too much of it, but I'm going to, you know, somebody somewhere has fed my dog a Lululemon sock, knowing it was going to result in surgery. So I'm seeing some definitely covert activity going on. What do you reckon?
SPEAKER_00:I reckon sounds sketchy. It does. I have to think about that, lament on it for a bit.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, do do contemplate that. So what Snarky and I are going to talk about today, apart from the uh the the secret sock feeding to my dog is um is the cooker wars, what we fondly refer to as the cooker wars. So, how do we get here, Snarky? How come we're in this position where um the cookers, who are our um sort of rag tag collective of conspiracy theorists, how come they're now at war with each other and why does it matter?
SPEAKER_00:Well, my I've got several theories on the guard at the minute. I think one of them is they all have the hero narrative complex in their brains, so yeah, they all want to be the leaders. Um yeah, so it's all just it's all splintered. I mean, there's definitely a lot of grift involved, they all see something lucrative in it, a lot of them, and so they want a part of it. Yeah, but I had to write together a bit of a chronology this morning because it's just getting so complicated.
SPEAKER_01:Over here in Australia, we must say that um the cooker activity um has been getting a bit febrile. And for those of you who live um um in foreign lands, um you would be unaware that we have this, you know, this sort of collective of conspiracy theorists, and they've been very, very busy in the last couple of months, have they not, Snarky?
SPEAKER_00:That's right. And they've they they don't have a uh uh an overarching sort of narrative anymore either. So during the lockdowns, it was all anti-lockdown and they were really unified, where now it's just like real broad stroke terms, like no corruption and and stuff, but it's like, yeah, we no one's for corruption, but what yeah, what precise corruption are you talking about? Yeah, and then then they'll come out with like the list of the 27 or or some bizarre like kind of crap that they've they've found that that doesn't, it's all just loopy land stuff.
SPEAKER_01:It's loopy land. Um yeah, the these very broad brushstroke statements like um no no no corruption and the government is out to get us, that that sort of thing is very hard to counter, isn't it? Because what are you actually talking about?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, and it's the same, like sort of thinking this recently around one of the talking points. So I think the main talking points, the the three main talking points that I can recall top my head is like no more mass migration, um energy prices and um would be uh corruption, right? So on the face of it to normies, it's like most people like, yeah, okay, but first of all, it's like define what you mean by mass migration. Oh no, I no, okay.
SPEAKER_01:So we did talk about this last night. I remember talking about this this mass, this is prior. We talked about the the the bullshit notion of mass migration being at the at the is the is pretty much the central um issue between every single thing that's going wrong in the country.
SPEAKER_00:But you realize it's just yeah, it it you you scratch the surface and it's just any anyone that's not wise. Yeah, like that's what we it's it's not even clear if that's even the case. Like they they want to some far right politicians just want to freeze to all migration for five years and just so we can see you know what happened. It's just like it's any any genuine critique or or proposal for, you know, maybe maybe the the skilled migration visa does need a retweaking. Like, is it is it is events are event coordinators as essential as say tradies? I don't know. Like it's it's there are probably some genuine critiques to discuss if you had, but all of that's just been railroaded completely by the the nonsense of these groups, and it's a shame that um that yeah, that that they've probably done more harm than than anything um in terms of trying to like get genuine reform. Same with like energy prices and things, it's like no one's happy about them, but they also rub shoulders with a lot of these mining oligarchs and and stuff and who who are responsible in some part to the the increase in energy. Yeah. Um they fund Sky News, they fund, you know, who funds who are you saying funds Sky News? Well, well, there's there's there's um like Gina Reinhart, etc., they they pump money into into various media outlets and you know, or they manipulate it in in certain ways. Um I can imagine if the government tried to put in genuine reform with energy companies, like the first thing a lot of these like far-right conservatives would be saying is, oh, this is this is overreach, this is etc. So if they try to put a cap on on you know price per ton, etc. then um or try to like clamp down on you know gain more more taxes or less subsidies to a lot of these mining companies, they they go batshit crazy as well. So like they don't have any solution in my opinion, I could be fully wrong, but that's that's my take on it. Um then we've got back to corruption, which is like okay, well, what what corruption? I'm sure it exists.
SPEAKER_01:I'm sure, absolutely.
SPEAKER_00:What yeah, like what what corruption, who who precisely are you talking about? Like not just Elbow wore a t-shirt on a plane, or you know, like just like what corruption was.
SPEAKER_01:Oh, there was such a fuss about Elbow um wearing the Joy Division t-shirt on the plane, right? Yeah, yeah, and then yeah, the the problem with the first so if we can talk about so for our um overseas listeners, um there was um um across the nation, so in every capital city, they had organized a march, um, these collection of of conspiracy theorists. Um so I think in Sydney and Melbourne that they wildly, wildly um over-exaggerated the numbers, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that's that's right. We did uh we we touched on it previously around the the underwhelming sort of turnout, but they they were somewhat impressed with it. What's worth calling out here as well, and it it it even in my own content it hasn't been spoken about enough, but after in the aftermath of of that first um gathering in which was back in August, um the the attack from NSN on camp sovereignty, I think they and and for okay, so let's just let's just unpack that.
SPEAKER_01:So um as as we know, um there was uh the neo-Nazis joined the march, and that was denied, wasn't it, by people like Beck Freedom?
SPEAKER_00:It was, but I mean it was so blatant, they were so front and center of that march. Um they were cheered, they'll clapped, they'll give in the center stage that that it just wasn't even deniable. I mean, they they had been even claiming from the outset that they helped organise it behind the scenes. That had been denied, but then during the actual protest itself, um the NSN were like hang on, what's the NS just explain that? Oh the sorry, the the National Socialist Network, which is groups in in Australia. So they I I wouldn't even say they hijacked the optics. I think they just they they were welcomed, they were invited to marched in front and um you know, up front flags flying. They were bold enough, a lot of them took their face coverings off, and the leader of the NSN group, Thomas Sewell, took took podium and was cheered and clapped. And I mean, credit to some uh in in the groups. I mean, there are there are some footage if in in various cities where um they had were booed, but we're talking like a a fraction of of the crowd. I mean, they're also equally cheered and and given centre stage. So 100%.
SPEAKER_01:Um and why do you think why do you think that um that that is? What do you think is the underlying psychology of why I mean you know, neo-Nazis is just is just a terrible, terrible thing. And I have read awful things about um, you know, the Holocaust never happened, and um it's disgusting. It's really, really disgusting. And you know, someone was talking about Anne Franken going as if so there's all this sort of tampering, this terrible retelling of the narrative and tampering with history. So why do you think that the cons I'll call them the conspiracy theorists just because I don't know, just in case the cookers doesn't quite hit the mark with people. Why do you think they did so sort of alarmingly align themselves with the neo-Nazis and also sort of stand by while there was that attack on on that? What was the camp?
SPEAKER_00:It's camp sovereignty in in Melbourne.
SPEAKER_01:And what is that exactly?
SPEAKER_00:I I'm probably not the best place to talk about it because I I'm not I'm not terribly familiar with camp sovereignty. Uh I I know it's there, but I I don't know its overarching kind of aims, etc. It'd probably be really valuable to have someone from Camp Sovereignty on at some point to to talk about sort of what what what they do, uh, etc. Um, I should know more about it. Um, I admittedly don't, so I'm not gonna um it'd be disrespectful for me to speak on on what they do and and um But it was pe it's peaceful, right?
SPEAKER_01:Oh that's right, that's right.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's it's an indigenous uh uh site of of of significance. Yeah, it it um you know there's vigils held and it's um it's it's near the the shrine of remembrance and the way that it's been likened to me is that it's it's it's like an indigenous shrine to to s in some regards, and it's it also you know it advocates for um indigenous sovereignty, um indigenous um reconciliation, deter self-determination, etc. So I've yeah, but it it's yeah, I'm I'm probably the um it's it's probably doesn't do it justice here in Panama. I think talk about it, but yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We broadly understand that it is um it's an indigenous peaceful camp, right?
SPEAKER_00:That's it. It's not even politically aligned to to the to the best of my knowledge. Like it's it's it's it's a pretty apolitical, it's I mean it's it's it's not a um a politically aligned necessarily like um group or or or area. Like it's uh it's everybody's welcome there. Like it's yeah, um, but it it was yeah, it was blatantly attacked by uh by who who attacked it by the the the NSN. So uh uh the the the members of of the NSN afterwards, there's this footage of it is horrendous. So um they all ran up in a line and and started, you know, um boot kicking women, and there was a disabled elderly chap that they were laying into, and they they just yeah, just just weak little boys, like just um unprovoked, unexpected, snuck up, and and that's it. So just just weak, weak little boys.
SPEAKER_01:Uh yeah, weak little boys, that's right. Looking looking for yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so thankfully Thomas was was arrested sort of hours after that, I think the following day, yeah, following that assault. And for for various other charges, he's still believe he's still in custody, which is which is good, been denied bail several times, and so the the group itself sort of splinter a bit. Yeah, they were splintered.
SPEAKER_01:Um one of his uh neo-Nazi um compatriots um was also arrested. And um his aunt, there was this really did you happen to hear his aunt talking? I don't know if it was the 730 report. Oh, I think I do now. And she it was she gave this really eloquent sort of speech about how devastated the family were that he'd joined.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, I do recall that.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, and and how they just could not understand how he'd gone in this direction.
SPEAKER_00:Um could I do a bit of a shout-out for the listeners? I'm not I don't know him directly and I'm I'm not necessarily advocating, but I I'd strongly recommend um uh Tom Tanuki on YouTube. He does this really uh Tom Tanuki, he's uh um he does some really good uh um long form deep dives on the NSN and other various groups, like he's been been following them for years. I'll send you some links.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we'll put the links in the show notes. That's a good that's a great idea.
SPEAKER_00:He goes into details about how the NSN is into like grooming and and other various things, like in terms of how they recruit and how they keep sort of they the grooming is a part of trying to keep everyone within the circle and it it's it's all pretty hideous. Um the the leader himself was was likely sort of groomed from a young age into this sort of thing, and it it's it's pretty hideous, but it it's worth um if you're listening to the time or even yourself any after this to um do do a deep dive on it. It's it's pretty well well structured and put together. Like he explains it far more eloquently than I could.
SPEAKER_01:I've just finished reading um clown town, which which is the story of Andrew Tate. Um yeah, and it's it's breathtaking the the the philosophy that they are actually um championing is astonishing in its absolutely overt misogyny, and this constant narrative that they've got going, Andrew Tate, and he had millions and millions of followers. So all you need is a boy who's feeling marginalized, you know, who doesn't have a good strong friendship group who maybe has been um, I don't know, rejected by a girl to sort of join this Andrew Tate-ish philosophical group where, in their opinion, men are the ones that are being robbed of their human rights, and women have all the power. And that is the very much the overarching philosophy of Andrew Tate, and his thing was something called the war room in Romania, and um the the the men would pay all this money to turn up and fight in a ring. I mean, it's just so sort of primitive, and the and the and the ideology about women, and what they did was they would groom the men, groom these boys, and then the boys would get their girlfriends and then do this terrible sort of love bombing and then withdrawing of love and love bombing again, and then they would just turn them, they would just turn them into these um um online um sex toys, and that's what they did. It's unbelievable what they got away with, but that surely that philosophy of men trying to find some sort of masculinity through this terrible lens, that must also infect the neo-Nazis, do you think?
SPEAKER_00:I I think so. It's a sense, yeah, and and uh in in one of the long form videos that Tom Tanukki does, like he goes into detail about how you know one of the issues that you know they recruit these like young teenage boys um in into their ranks and make them feel a sense of community and part of it. But what naturally happens is they get a bit older and they get girlfriends, and you know, any normal person would say, What are you fucking in that group for? And so they then you know they they probably a lot of the guys drop off because they're like, Oh, well, yeah, probably right. Like as soon as they leave the the the sort of enclosure of that group, yeah. And so what they then try to do is well, let's recruit young women then to then be with these young boys, and then it's a perfectly kind of insular kind of circle, and then they'll have kids and they're I'll raise their kids, you know, and so it's this um it's a pretty hideous, and I'm sure other other other um nasty stuff goes on, but it it's that that's the theory that that's put forward. Um it's it's pretty well. Um I call it a theory, but but it's it's documented pretty well in some of the on-form videos.
SPEAKER_01:So absolutely if you just look at the whole um trad wife thing in America as well, it's sort of it's sort of and for anybody who's unfamiliar, this is a Christian um, this is a sort of a Christian right ideology where women are going back to, you know, raising kids, being in the kitchen, being subservient to their husbands, it's very American, dressing in aprons, and um, you know, they must never ever deny their husband sex because it's his right. And um, they're even talking about, you know, why would they need voting rights? They just would vote the way their husband votes. So this sort of terrible thread of ideology, and do you think that runs through the cookers as well? What what's your opinion on that?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, there's probably some desire for there's there's always a desire to go back to a different time uh for for a lot of the the cookers, you know, to to when things were were supposedly great, but I just don't think they ever were looking at it from a h historical. Things never work.
SPEAKER_01:No, no, no. No, never, never, never never.
SPEAKER_00:There is a nostalgia for that sort of thing, but I think for a lot of people, it's just what I've got. It's not all of them, um, but a lot of them life hasn't worked out the way they thought it would. And so they blame other people rather than being self-reflecting. I mean, there's there's like I have this like theory, and I've I back during the lockdown days when we've had a lot of time on our hands, I I sort of thought that every every villain, every every every major sort of cooker personality had a almost like a villain sort of origin story, like some sort of traumatic thing that happened that made them. Yeah, and I I I had this sort of sort of mental game that I'd I'd play with a a friend of mine. I was like, what do you think happened to this person? And and you do some deep dives, so I won't won't go into specifics, but you know, there was there was one chap who was um uh like he's he's he's a nobody now, like but but at one point he had quite a big following to in during the Melbourne lockdowns. But looking at his like uh don't ask me that, somehow a cousin of his joined a and a legitimately like a cousin of his um joined a crypolsine and we we started chatting and he was saying like back in like 2015, like his mother had had passed away of of inoperable cancer, which was really sad, right? Um and it was um you know there'd been some complaints in the months leading up where the the mother had gone to the hospital and it was insisted that she was fine and it just wasn't picked up in for for whatever various reasons. I don't know what type of cancer it was or the the specifics, right? But after that, like he's the the dad, the trauma of that that sudden loss, um, the dad and the brother had taken like a hard turn right towards like conspiracy nanobots, like it's all it's all like you know, this sort of thing, right? And so in five years in that leading up to the pandemic, like there was just this this this trauma had had conditioned basically like it was a household of four. Um, there was three, it was the father, two brothers, and uh, you know, um the father, um, you know, there was this this chap I'm talking about, his brother and and and the sister. Now the sister left home and just got on with her life, but the the three of them still in that household had just become completely cooked. And so that's this this chap was telling me that, and so that was quite verifiable. And it's like, okay, it's a sad situation. I kind of that that's their origin story. I'm not making fun of it.
SPEAKER_01:Um no, not at all. But it's interesting their own yeah, and I think that's an important thing to note that um, you know, if you're you're way less likely to be pulled into uh some sort of deeply tangled conspiracy theory if you come from a safe, supported, um, you know, sort of reasonably functional family that probably just listens to the mainstream media. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, yeah. Like other times it's it's marriage breakdowns, it's you know, it's like, oh, you know, if only you know, it's this feminism crap, which is why she doesn't put up with my nonsense. You know, it's sort of like rather than self-reflection, like, you know, I like to think that if my wife sort of said, hey, not pulling your weight, or I'm not not content, I'd I'd self-reflect and think, what could I do better? rather than going down the Andrew Tape.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it's that darn feminism, you know, having she's having independent thoughts again, you know. That's yeah, yeah. How dare you know? I'm I'm broadly generalizing, but I I think it's a combination of those like traumatic things happen to people. Um you know, uh life doesn't work out the way it's supposed to, which is can be traumatic in itself, um, rather than self-reflecting, which is painful. It's just easy to blame, you know. Um absolutely to blame the system. Chemtrails or yeah, the pilot 30,000 feet up spraying, and that's you know, chemtrails.
SPEAKER_01:Chemtrails, the chemtrails that have been going nuts lately. And there's another woman on online, I won't say her name. Yeah, um, but she is an advocate of um washing herself and drinking aged urine, which is which is a favorite among some of the cookers. I don't get it, but it's very, very well documented. A lot of them consume aged urine and washing it and and fix their pets. I I don't know what they do, I don't want to think too much about it, but um yeah, she has she sort of lives this sort of itinerant life, washing herself in her urine, and she's lost control of her children, they have been removed from her. Um, and so she of course goes to court and stands there, you know, talking about her aged urine and why can't she have the children back, blaming the system, like blaming the system that she's not allowed access? Well, you know, she looks completely mad, and probably what she needs is to have mental health support, right? Yeah, she got it like on the scene or a partner or sports supporting or she's on her own, her partner has her children, and of course, she's devastated and furious about not having access. Well, why would you allow your children to have access to it to cook to somebody who's completely mad? But instead of her getting the psychological support, you know, that she needs, um, she's sort of wandered into these deeply strange theories about urine and and chemtrails and and big pharma, and of course, she's lost. It's a sense of control as well.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is it is she can't control anything else, but she can control piss, you know, and so that's that's the the golden fountain or whatever she whatever they call it.
SPEAKER_01:It's really common, as is um that's it, as is people using black salve to fix their skin cancers or whatever, which is this corrosive substance. And there's there's been a recent legal court case around um the woman, I'm not going to use any names, who who was selling it. And so they just they just you know move somewhere else and call it something else and keep selling it. And people end up with you know an inch deep cavity in their face, but they're like, no, no, it really works because it's not big pharma, it's really mad. It's really mad.
SPEAKER_00:And my name, my wait till my naysaying kids see the it being cured, and it's almost like again, it's like for a lot of these older people, it's a sense of losing control. The kids now are adults who are probably looking after them to some extent, or at least you know, and saying, Mom, you shouldn't be using that. And it's um and it's it's it's hard for them to sort of like to to come to terms with that reality. So they are um they're secretly going to use this elixir or whatever it is to kill them.
SPEAKER_01:It's called black salve, it's it's terrible.
SPEAKER_00:It's it's yeah, I've read a few of those posts recently, and yeah, that one of them said that using it on a a melanoma, quite an advanced melanoma on their hands. Great. They're like, my my naysaying daughter, you know, wait till she sees how good this is working and and stuff. And it almost just seemed they'll just use it out of defiance just to sort of show their kids that they they still knew better.
SPEAKER_01:And I wonder if there is some, you know, I wonder how much defiance plays into this whole oh hugely it does.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, the whole I I think massively it does.
SPEAKER_01:I mean, I think that's a very interesting um discussion about some of the psychological issues that underpin these belief systems. And I just I just wish we as debunkers and skeptics had more influence over some of these ideologies because I see young people being infected with them, and it really, really worries me. And it must it must worry you as well. You have children.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, it does, yeah. Young, young children, young daughters, and um it, you know, um, yeah, like that's that's it. Like my daughters have to grow up, and um yeah, my daughters have to grow up in the world with these, so yeah. Yeah with these sort of um people.
SPEAKER_01:So be ho be hopeful because my children are adults now, and um neither of them have a conspiracy thinking bone in their body, they're highly skeptical. So living in the house with you, I'm feeling pretty confident your daughters are going to be okay.
SPEAKER_00:I think so. Yeah, thank you. Appreciate that.
SPEAKER_01:Um, so thanks for that, listeners. Um, please tune in um for our next episode where Snake and I talk about the Cooker Wars. Thanks for tuning in to Why Smart Women with me, Annie McCubbin. I hope today's episode has ignited your curiosity and left you feeling inspired by my anti-motivational style. Join me next time as we continue to unravel the fascinating layers of our brains and develop ways to sort out the fact from the fiction and the over 6,000 thoughts we have in the course of every day. Remember, intelligence isn't enough. You can be as smart as paint, but it's not just about what you know, it's about how you think. And in all this talk of whether or not you can trust your gut, if you ever feel unsafe, whether it's in the street, at work, car park, in a bar, or in your own home, please, please respect that gut feeling. Staying safe needs to be our primary objective. We can build better lives, but we have to stay safe to do that. And don't forget to subscribe, rate, and review the podcast and share it with your fellow smart women and allies. Together we're hopefully reshaping the narrative around women and making better decisions. So until next time, stay sharp, stay savvy, and keep your critical thinking hat shiny. This is Annie McCubbin signing off from Why Smart Women. See you later. This episode was produced by Harrison Hess. It was executive produced and written by me, Annie McCubbin.
