Dragon's Den to 85 Razzamataz Schools: Denise Hutton-Gosney | Ep 89

From a first dance class at 11 to a Dragon's Den deal and 85 theatre schools, Denise Hutton-Gosney is living proof there's no single path to success.

Grab Spotlight on Success on Amazon: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Spotlight-Success-Passion-Meets-Purpose/dp/B0FFH88B1C

In this Spotlight Series episode, host Nicole Louise Geddes sits down with Denise Hutton-Gosney, founder of Razzamataz Theatre Schools and the person who wrote the foreword for Spotlight on Success. 

Denise shares the full arc: growing up in Renfrew with money tight, catching the dance bug late, performing as a trapeze artist at the Millennium Dome and the London Palladium, and then building one of the UK's biggest performing arts franchises after her time in the spotlight came to an end.

It's an honest, warm conversation about the "spotlight shift" every performer eventually feels, and why the end of one act is only the beginning of another.

WHAT YOU'LL LEARN

• Why there's no one path to success, and how a late start can still lead to an empire
• How to spot the "spotlight shift" and plan your second act before you're forced to
• Using franchising to scale a passion into 85 UK schools plus international territories
• What Dragon's Den was really like, and the seven-year partnership with Duncan Bannatyne
• Why performing arts training builds confidence that transfers to any career
• How to beat imposter syndrome by staying curious and finding the right mentors

ABOUT DENISE Denise Hutton-Gosney is the founder of Razzamataz Theatre Schools, now with 85 schools across the UK plus master franchises in the UAE (Dubai) and the Republic of Ireland. A former dancer and trapeze artist, she took the business onto Dragon's Den, secured investment from Duncan Bannatyne and later bought her shares back, and went on to win a ten-year contract with TUI. She wrote the foreword for Spotlight on Success.

ABOUT THE SERIES The Spotlight Series features the co-authors and creatives behind Spotlight on Success, the PerformerPreneur book redefining what success looks like both in and out of the showbiz spotlight.

LINKS

• Denise's Dragon's Den episode: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00b3kkm
• Razzmatazz Theatre Schools: https://www.razzamataz.co.uk/

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Chapters

00:00 Welcome and introducing Denise Hutton-Gosney
01:02 The Spotlight Series and hello from Denise
02:05 From Renfrew to the Millennium Dome
05:22 The spotlight shift
06:23 Why the theatre school was born
07:47 Juggling classes across the North
09:57 Scaling Razzamataz through franchising
11:05 How big Razzamataz is today
11:40 Imposter syndrome and staying curious
13:43 The Dragon's Den story
15:29 Does performing arts build confidence
17:53 Crossing paths and why the book matters
20:33 How the Razzamataz franchise works
22:52 Passion, purpose and legacy
24:10 You can have it all
26:54 Closing thoughts and outro

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Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome back to the Showbiz Psychous Podcast, where today we are talking all things spotlight on success and our best spelling book. My guest needs very little introduction, but I'm going to give her one anyway because Denise Hutting Gosny is here ready to share her wisdom with you. She is the founder of Rasmusaz Theatre Schools, now with over 80 franchises across the UK and growing globally. A Dragon's Den success story that took the entertainment industry by storm. It really is a privilege to have her pen the foreword of our best-selling book. Denise, it is a true honour to have you endorse the book in this way, and within this podcast conversation, we'll share with the listeners what drew you to do this for us and how I know that you believe performers don't get enough credit for all they are trained to do and capable of next. Denise's own performing arts foundations helped build her empire, and that's why she felt so strongly that this book matters. I love that you came on this journey with me, Denise. Honestly, thank you and welcome to the podcast. Welcome to the Spotlight series, where each week we meet one of the brilliant co-authors and creatives behind Spotlight on Success. The PerformApreneur book that's redefining what success looks like both in and out of the Showbiz Spotlight. I'm your host here, Nicole Louise Geddis, and in these special episodes, we learn even more about the stories behind the sequence. Raw, honest, powerful reminders that the end of one act is only the beginning of another. So listen in as we chat challenges and triumphs and inspire you to shine in any spotlight you like.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Hi Nicole, thanks so much for inviting me. It's a real pleasure to be part of it. I just want to say I think we're filming on the hottest day of the year, hence why I'm outside. Um believe it or not, this was the coolest place. It's actually cooler out here than inside my house today.

SPEAKER_01 1:48

Um but the listeners, Denise, will appreciate the show must go on.

SPEAKER_00 1:52

Exactly. Sweat or no sweat.

SPEAKER_01 1:55

Yes, we are used to this in this industry, but and I have both stepped out of the spotlight, so it does feel strange to keep pushing in this heat. Um let's talk about that actually, Denise. Where did your performing arts career start? How did it build? Where did it take you? Um, just give us a whistle stop tour of your background in the industry.

SPEAKER_00 2:17

Yeah, I'll try because it's quite a long story. But um, yeah, I was brought up in a little town called Renfro. Um, money was quite tight when I was when I was growing up, so I didn't start dance very young. I was about 11 before I actually went to my first dance class, absolutely loved it, got the bug immediately. My mum, God bless her, um, you know, saved every penny she could to send me to as many classes as she could. Um, then I was lucky enough to get a scholarship at Brian Rogers. I went to one of Brian Rogers' seminars when I was thinking 15, and I just adored him, and I was really lucky to get a scholarship place there. Um, unfortunately, I'd kind of forgot that I would have to pay for rent and food, etc., but that's another story. So I didn't manage to see out the three years, but I went to performers in Essex. From there, I started audiening as we do going to London on the overnight bus. I think it was five pounds at the time. Um, I left Glasgow at midnight, would get to London at 7am and go straight to Pineapple to do the addition. Um, I was lucky enough to get my first job at Butlands actually in Ayr in Scotland, and it was amazing. Um, I met friends for life, including um Karen, who's my PR now. We stayed on the journey together for the last 30 odd years. Um, from there, I was very lucky to do pantomimes, summer seasons. I was a trapeze artist at the Millennium Dome, which most of your listeners will probably recognise as the O2 Arena now. But back in 1999, it was the Millennium Dome, and I was training to do a show for the Queen as a trapeze artist. I also did the London Palladium. I was really lucky to do a world cruise. Um and that that took me to about um I finished my career at Oasis, which is now Centre Parks in the Lake District, and hence that's why I'm here today. I ended up staying here and not going home, and I was about 26 then. So that's kind of a whistle stop tour. I feel I was really lucky, very blessed. I'd done some amazing work, seen some beautiful countries, and met some amazing people.

SPEAKER_01 4:20

Oh, honestly, I'm so I know this story, and each time you say it, like I just I'm excited for the listeners to know the next part of the chapter. But you did start performing and dancing late. So I think that's inspiring in itself. You know, many people think that it has to look a certain way, which is what we're doing with the book. You know, this these careers don't have to look a certain way. You didn't graduate from college because of the financial strain. Obviously, you did get in and you were capable of. Again, that's a story and a narrative that you know you are single-handedly able to dismiss. Like it doesn't need to look a certain way. Um and to go from dance to circus with the trapeze, to go from butlins to the Millennium Dome to the Palladium. Like, this is why, Denise, you and I have connected. This is why I birthed the book, the idea, because I want everybody listening in the industry to know there's no one path to success. I love, love, love this. Um, you did it all, and you've ended up um where you belong into your next chapter. So I'm gonna push the conversation that way. There does come a point, as you and I, and many people listening know, that that something shifts. I'm calling it the spotlight shift, like something shifts, and it might be due to injury, it might be due to motherhood, it might be due to you know a multitude of things, but something internally does start to shift. What was that moment for you? Are you able to pinpoint it?

SPEAKER_00 5:46

Yeah, I think I was about 26. Um, and I I again I was so lucky. I I travelled the world on the cruise ships, I did the West End pantomimes. I think I was kind of feeling like I was ticking all my boxes. Um, obviously the dancers that were coming in were 19, you know, even at 26, you start thinking, oh crumbs, they're a lot younger than me. Um, so I was starting to think, what am I going to do next? So I did an open university course to do all my um PT and exercise to music, uh became a spinning instructor. So I was kind of juggling that at the time. I was choreographer at Oasis, I was still a dancer, I was also a fitness instructor, and then that's when I thought uh about the theatre school. I'd also seen the industry shift. So back in the day, um I I felt like I was only a dancer, and it became like only a dancer wasn't enough anymore. Like you had to be obviously what's known now is a triple threat. Um, because I almost get into Starlight Express and I almost get into fame because I'm a gymnast as well, but I didn't really have the confidence when it came to the singing and the acting edition. So that's when I decided to set up my first theatre school in Penrith, um, which meant I could still do my part-time choreography fitness instructor, so it fit in really nicely. Um, and Razmatazz was born.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Oh, it's crazy, isn't it? Because I know that everyone can relate. You start juggling all the balls, you try to make everything fit, things start to shift for you, the industry, that bit inside as well, the age. Um, and we are so tenacious, aren't we? We're not gonna just stop, we're gonna keep going in our own kind of right. And so you've said it express expressed, sorry, exactly that, just starting to juggle more balls, exploring more opportunities, and then it sounds to me that there was a lot of balls to juggle. At what point did you narrow it down and go, actually, this is this is the one for me with Rasmataz in the theatre school?

SPEAKER_00 7:49

Uh that took quite a while to be honest. I'm always I've always loved working. I am a grafter. I I love that term because I am a grafter, I've got really hard work ethic. So even though I was juggling a lot, it never felt like a lot, to be honest. Um, so like I say, my first school was on a Sunday morning at Penrith. And then if I take you through where I went on a Monday, I went to Dumfries, um, which was like an hour away from Penrith. Then on a Tuesday, I went to West Cumbria, which is an hour in the other direction. Then on a Wednesday, it was Glasgow, Thursday was Paisley up in Scotland. I would drive back on the Friday, Saturday morning was uh South Lakes, Saturday afternoon was Carlisle, and Sunday at one point was South Lakes as well. So I'd I'd really jam-packed my day, and I was still doing a little bit of fitness instruction instructor at the time. I'm the type of person I like to be busy when I get a day off. I'm like, what do people do on a day off? Um, but I'm I'm I'm not like that now because I think you know I'm older now, I've got children now, I do enjoy a day off now because it's fine, it is healthy to find that balance equally. But I was just in I was just really driven and I just loved what I did. I absolutely loved it. And it was honestly, it was never about money back then either. It was just about growing the business. I knew we were doing such good work in the communities, and I wanted to serve other as many communities as I could, really. Um, and I I just really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 9:16

So it started small with your one class on a Sunday in Penrith, um, and then you started to expand and grow. And I mean, Denise, that's not just expanding a few classes in the same area. You are traveling the whole of the north there and and reaching so many people. Was there a moment in that process? And I think it'll be interesting for the listeners that are also kind of doing it all as we do and being passionate about it as we are. Um, was there a moment that that felt necessary to start bringing in more people or delegating or diversifying? You know, what did that what did that look like on a on a business kind of minded point of view?

SPEAKER_00 9:56

Yeah, so I think I had kind of used all the days of the week up and I thought I've run out of days of the week. Now what do I do? Um I had some great people on my team already, so I started putting managers in place, um, and then I decided to use franchising as a as a vehicle to scale my business. Um, and I do everything by the book. So I joined the BFA, the British Franchise Association. I engaged a consultant to write our first operations manual and a solicitor to write our franchise agreement. Um and yet I put managers in at arm's length to prove it was profitable and operational without me, which it absolutely was. Um, and that's when I decided to continue to grow and scale the business via franchising. I sold three very quickly with within my own team who were perhaps relocating. They were in Cumbria at the the art college, but they were going home and they wanted to take Rasmataz with them. So it kind of sort of organically happened. Um, and then it's just grew to to today. Obviously, we've got Dragon's Den in the middle, but I think you're going to ask me about that in a minute.

SPEAKER_01 11:04

I am just tell us how big you've grown to just to finish that moment off.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

So today we've got 85 schools in the UK. We've got a master franchise in the UAE with Dubai already up and running successfully. We've got a master franchise in the Republic of Ireland, and Limited is launching later on this year, and we've got another five launching this this year before the year ends.

SPEAKER_01 11:30

Incredible. I am gonna go to Dragon's Den in a moment, but the first thing I want to just point out and and just take a moment to credit is myself included, many of us set off on this journey of entrepreneurship. You know, we've got the tenacity, we've got the creativity, and something that can stop many of us is that imposter syndrome of not necessarily knowing the next steps or not having enough business knowledge or background. But you did something that I think you know not many people dare to do, but is available to anyone. It's to to find out, to learn, to make sure that you are literally doing and and being and and understanding what your next step is by educating yourself. Would you think that's something that you would you know remind people is available to them to themselves on the next steps?

SPEAKER_00 12:26

Absolutely. I don't even know what a franchise was when I left school. I had I had no idea. That wasn't part of my plan. Um, but I'm a big believer in always staying curious, always every day is a school day. Don't be scared to ask questions. People really want to help you. You'll be amazed at how many people want to help. So I was lucky enough to get a mentor at the Prince's Trust, um, and that was my first ever business mentor when I when I set the business up, and um, he was fantastic and helped me, especially with things like finance, because we do what we do because we love it, but you have to make sure you understand the finance because if you don't, then you can't continue doing your good work in the community. Um, but yeah, I learned on the job as they say. I I kept asking questions, I kept surrounding myself with good people, and I always always engage like a mentor, a business mentor, or coach um to try and support me with with things that I didn't know. You cannot know all, nobody knows it all.

SPEAKER_01 13:24

No, no, and that's my message all the time to my clients like you don't know all. I don't necessarily know it all, but I certainly don't know it all, but let's bring in people that do ask the questions, be curious, all the things you said. So I love that, and it just shows that when when you do do that, the next door opens, the next door opens. And when we're talking about doors, nice little segue there, Nicole. We're talking about doors. How did the Dragon's Den door open? What is that story, Denise?

SPEAKER_00 13:51

So I applied to Dragon's Den with a game, not Rasmataz. Um, but because I didn't have a prototype ready, they encouraged me to come on with Rasmataz. Um, I'll be honest, initially I was a little bit reluctant because it was my baby. Um, but I thought, well, at the very least, I'll get some nice publicity from it because I knew I had a great business model and I knew the good work we were doing in so many communities, even before I went on Dragon's Den. Um, so yeah, it was a staircase, not a lift, and it was probably the most scariest thing I've ever done in my life. Um, but I don't regret it. We definitely got catapulted into the limelight and it gave us so much publicity. Obviously, working with Duncan Banatine was amazing. He invested for seven years, and then I purchased my shares back off him. We got a 10-year contract with Tui, so we were training our teams centrally in the UK and flying them out globally worldwide. Um, and we've just worked with so many big brands since that show. Um, and it's definitely down to dragon's den. So if anyone's got any aspirations, I'd just say just do it. What have you got to lose? A lot of people said to me, Oh my goodness, what like you can't do that, why are you doing it? And I think, especially when you're in this industry, you always think, well, the more you say I can't do it, the more I can do it, actually. Um, but yeah, and it's just having the confidence to do it. Like I I was absolutely terrified. So if I can do it honestly, anyone can do it.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

It's the best story. I've watched the episode, it is available on YouTube. Please do go find it. In fact, Tom, let's pop that link below in the in the um show notes. Um, it's the best story, and I think confidence plays a huge part in everything we do. Do you think that performing arts builds that confidence, nurtures it, gifts it? Where do you think confidence sits and how is performing arts part of that picture?

SPEAKER_00 15:43

Yeah, a hundred percent. I was really quite a shy kid at school. I was always very ambitious, always from a very young age, and loved working from a very young age, but um still quite quite shy, quite like not had a huge amount of confidence. And then I always say, I found Dance, or did Dance find me? I'm not sure. Um, and it just gave me it's like I always describe it as like a flower blossom blossoming, you know, and you you get your little shy kids that come in and they won't look you in the eye, they won't speak, and then give them six months, a year, and they're you know reciting a poem in front of a room full of parents, and that's the rewarding part of what we do. Um, and yeah, I think a lot of performers are naturally quite shy people, you know, but when they're on stage, they they they can be someone else, like they've got this different persona, even really famous people, you find that they're naturally quite shy people, introverted.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

I and I am as well, but people don't believe it because we can switch it on, because that training has given us the tools. Um, and I know that you are well, you've built a whole business around giving these children the tools. You believe, and you are witnessing how these tools of the foundations of performing can go on to become a variety of different careers, different spotlights. And you wrote the foreword for spotlight on success because you wholeheartedly believe that that foundation is a huge advantage, yeah?

SPEAKER_00 17:15

Yeah, yeah. Confidence matters in whatever career you're going to end up doing because you'll have to make eye contact at an interview, you know, you you'll have to be able to sell yourself, even if you don't really believe it, you have to sell yourself. Um, you might end up having to do a presentation in whatever job you end up doing. And and those skills, in my opinion, because I've witnessed it personally myself, and I've wit witnessed it with tens of thousands of young people coming through our door. It it definitely does make a difference, you know, to sort of support that academic. If you're academically gifted, that will definitely support and whatever you want to do.

SPEAKER_01 17:53

So you and I have met through the the conception, the creation of this book. Like we were, we you know, we both went to performers, but in very different times, and we've both been in the industry, but our paths haven't crossed, we've both built business businesses, all of this. So I do believe that people are drawn to people. Energy is energy attracts energy, like for like, and all of that. But you you and I found each other, and you have I don't know how to you have accepted the invitation or you felt drawn to. I don't know which way around it ended up being, but you are happy to be part of this process and put your name to the book. Um, what was it about the first edition that you felt compelled to be part of this in such an incredible um lovely way?

SPEAKER_00 18:39

I love what you're doing, Nicole. It's so important. And one of our franchise partners, Michael, was obviously in that book as well, and it was lovely to read his story. Um, obviously, you know, we're in the business of sharing what we do, and and you know, you can be part of our network by being a franchise partner with us, but just any career, like it makes me quite sad. I went to watch a West End show recently, and the talent on that stage is phenomenal, goes without saying. And and I do think where where do these super talented people go? Because let's face it, certainly if it's a very physical role um as a dancer, you're probably maybe mid-30s, probably thinking, what now? Um, maybe you want a family, or you know, uh it makes me sad to think that maybe they're not sure, or maybe they feel they've left it too late to have another career, and they absolutely have not left it too late, and there is more out there when when as you always say, when the when the curtain comes down, there's more. Oh, there's so much more.

SPEAKER_01 19:43

The diversity inside the pages, as you've expressed, just shines a spotlight on all of the options, all of the reasons, all of the worries, all of the opportunity, but also all of the fantastic opportunities before that moment as well. Because let's be honest, it's an incredible career to be part of, but it just doesn't have the longevity, and nobody's talking about that. And within all of those options, um, go buy the book, read the book, um, listeners, I'd love you to. But there is obviously your option, the the buying something that's packaged up, Denise, that can just be like whatever age, whatever stage of your career, you can buy into this very well established, very well managed business and become your own boss. So I'd love to just touch on that if we've got time.

SPEAKER_00 20:32

Yeah, so Rasmataz Theatre Skills is obviously a franchise business. You buy a territory from us, um, and we will give you the so you own that territory, you own the brand name in that territory, you grow that as an asset to either sell odd or pass down to your children. You come to our head office, you train with us for a week. We give you all the tools, the resources, the know-how. You're assigned a support mentor from day one who will hold your hand through the whole process. From there, you're invited onto our WhatsApp groups, to our conferences. We have four creative development days every year. Um, there's just loads to get involved in, and it's just nice to share. Um, they always say, you know, franchising is being in business for yourself, but not by yourself. Um, and also a lot of performers, and me included, I didn't particularly know how to produce a children's show. Just because I was a dancer didn't mean I knew all the regulations of backstage, front of stage, safeguarding, um, you know, children's performance laws. I didn't know all of that. So, can you do it on your own? You could, but it will take you a lot longer to get from A to B. I mean, some of our franchisees, um, give you an example in Kent, she's uh only works two days a week now, and she turns over um a six figure sum um every year, and she has a huge team and she absolutely adores what she she does. So that that Being in that industry didn't have to end for her, like it doesn't have to end, the story doesn't have to end. You know, you can stay in this industry which is magical. And I found that actually I got because I think the big worry is I won't get the buzz anymore because it's not me that's performing. In my opinion, you absolutely do, because you get a bigger buzz because you see these young people grow in confidence, perform, become talented, whether they go on to West End or not, you've been a part of their journey, and that's such a privilege.

SPEAKER_01 22:32

It is a privilege, and I'm you know, I'm I've we've all been in those in those situations, right? When we were growing up, and those people are so influential. And if you can gift that to the next generation, in whatever form, whatever guise it is, it's just about um keeping that legacy going, and that passion meets purpose piece, but the book's tagline it's when you what are you passionate about, what could the purpose become? What's the legacy piece in that? And you have created this opportunity, Denise, for so many people to leave their legacy, to to share their passion, to have a purpose outside of the traditional showbiz spotlight. Um, and that's why, honestly, if you're watching listeners on YouTube, you can just see me grinning from ear to ear. That is why I just feel so honored that you have written the foreword for this book because everything you are about is everything I'm about, and everything we both and all in inside these pages want the next generation or people at Crossroads to understand and believe that there's so much more and it's so possible. And find people, find information, find your your circle, find your next crew. You know, you can do it. Um, there's a line that you've written that says, This book matters because you matter. And I think we don't even need to go any further with that. I think people can tell just from listening to you today, Denise. It's so genuine, it's so heartfelt. You want people to succeed. You've you've shown that and expressed that by supporting me and the 18 authors. So I really, really am appreciative of that. Um, so the final thing, if if you can give me a couple more minutes, is legacy is clearly something that drives you. You've created your own legacy, you're gifting the opportunity for others to create legacy. Um, what do you hope that spotlight on success, the book, what do you hope the reader feels and believes when they put that down?

SPEAKER_00 24:29

I hope they believe that I I can do it too, you know, and that like I say, the story doesn't have to end, you know, just because your career on stage has ended, you can absolutely stay in this industry, you can absolutely have a thriving business of your own, whether it's a Rasmus franchise or or some other opportunity, but just believe in yourself and believe that there is more because I'm now 53 and I'm really proud that I'm still going to Disney with the kids, I'm going to the West End with the kids, and I think it helps keep you young is also, you know. Um, but yeah, just believe in yourself because you you do matter, you know, like the end of your career doesn't mean that you know you you can't continue in this this amazing industry. Also, if you want to have a family, which I did um a bit later in my career because I was very career-driven, um this our our franchise in particular is is perfect if you want to have a family because it's so flexible. Both of my children spent a lot of time in hospital, and I always say to my husband, if I had a proper job, I'd have been sacked by now because there's only so many times that you can't go to work because of your kids. But our our main operational day is a Saturday, obviously. Um, but the rest of the work is flexible from home. So it also if you've got aspirations to have a family um, you know, and still want to stay in this industry. Because I think some people think of, I can't have it all. You kind of you kind of can actually, you know, if you if you surround yourself with the right people, talk to the right people, um yeah, you kind of can.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

I'm gonna I want that to be the end sentence, so I I can't stop talking. You can have it all. It's it's kind of a message we don't get told often enough. And I think across the board, across all generations, across all genders, across all careers. We just don't believe that that is possible, but you are living proof. There's so many people that are really pushing and showing that it is possible, and so believe you can have it all, and it can be whatever all looks like for you as well. Like there's no one size fits all. Pick what you want life to look like, build it, believe it, and know that the foundations of your performing career absolutely are part of that puzzle and they will support you. Um, Denise, it's been a privilege, this whole journey. Um, you and I are now intertwined in each other's worlds, and I can't wait to see what you do next, what happens to the book, who we attract, who we can help, how we can work together. But first and foremost, today I'm just very grateful our paths crossed, and I'm so thankful that you wanted to support this project. So thank you, Denise.

SPEAKER_00 27:12

Oh no, thank you, Nicole. It's been lovely to meet and lovely to read all the stories in the book. They're all equally as inspiring as each other. And I'm just so glad that you've created this platform to share for other performers to see if they're doing their five-year plan right now, what's out there and their options. So, congratulations. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 27:33

Big love, my darling. Thank you. There you have it. Thank you for joining us on today's episode of the Spotlight series, where stories shine and success gets redefined. If you loved what you heard, hit like, follow, or subscribe. And be sure to grab your copy of Spotlight on Success over on Amazon. And don't forget to tag us at Performapreneur across all socials. If you've been inspired today to step into a new spotlight, you can find a whole community ready to support you at performapreneur.co.uk, as well as up and coming events and even more about each author. Until next time, stay bold, stay brilliant, and continue to shine.