John

I asked her the question, well, what have you already thought about? And she said, well, I could tell you, but the ideas are a bit crazy. And I said, I want to know the crazy ones first.

Natasha

Welcome back to the Career shifters podcast. I'm Natasha Stanley. Now with me today is the phenomenal John Lees, who's one of the UK's best known career experts. He's published 15 books on careers and work, including the UK bestseller, How to Get a Job You Love. John was previously chief executive of the Institute of Employment Consultants and was a founding board member of the Career Development Institute. He knows his stuff and he's also just an absolute joy to hang out with and listen to. You're in for a real treat today. John joined me to discuss Paul's career change story from the last episode. If you haven't heard it yet, do go back and check it out. We talked about how your interpretation of events can change the speed of your shift, why you probably already know what you want to do, even if it doesn't feel like it, and practical techniques for getting the most out of conversations with interesting people. Let's get started.

Natasha

So the first thing I'm curious about is, just like at a high level, you listened to Paul's story... What did you think? What did you come away with?

John

It's a really good story, isn't it? It's wonderful to hear the whole arc of a career progression and the stages of the process, because I didn't know where we were going to get to, because I haven't worked with Paul, so I didn't know whether he was going to say, 'I'm still stuck', or 'I don't know what I'm doing next'. I'm really interested in how he frames the early parts of it, too. There's a whole process of reframing going on here, so learning to think about experiences in different ways, and some of the times he's pointing us to individual events and moments where he changed the way he thought about things. For me, that's the most interesting part of his story, is all those moments where he chose to reframe or chose to think differently.

Natasha

There's a number of those that, of course, is easy to see with Captain Hindsight on your shoulder. You can join the dots looking backwards, but life has to be lived forwards. And what you say there about the... the early parts of his career, like, he talks about it as feeling quite unstable right? So he started his PhD and he stepped away from that and then he went through a few different jobs in different parts of the country... and I don't think that's an uncommon experience for people in their 20s, but it's certainly not everyone's. And I wonder what impact that experience might have on the way people think about career change in the future? Like if you compare someone like Paul who moved around a lot and never quite felt settled, to somebody who maybe joined a graduate scheme and stayed in the same place for 10, 15 years. Do you think there's a difference there in the kind of ways that we think about work in those early experiences of career?

John

I suppose there are important differences, aren't there? And also, I suppose what was interesting about Paul is that he sort of... He hit his particular brick wall quite early in his career. So others might hit that same sort of brick wall of dissatisfaction, or misery, or whatever it is in a much later decade. I think he's a very interesting coaching client to look at because in fact, an awful lot of people in their 20s experiment. Sometimes they choose to, or sometimes it's sort of forced upon them by flitting from one job to another or not quite knowing where to land. So I think his experience is quite It's quite typical, really. Many people in their early 30s I've been working with quite recently reflect back on the decade of what I think of as experiment. And how they frame it is interesting, because if they frame it as experimental, and I learned something and I moved on, that tells me one thing. But when they frame it as a series of disappointments or things that didn't work out, as a coach, that tells me something else, too, about the way they are processing experience and also the way that they'll present to the marketplace as well because it's a big difference between saying it didn't work to saying I got everything out of it I wanted to and I learned some stuff and I moved on very different messages

Natasha

yeah

John

one thing that impressed me about Paul was he's had lots of moments of clarity already and he talked about the point where he was off work for six months and burnout stress was kicking in but he also said that he realized the parts of the job that he really loved at that stage, and he really liked training other people, and he really liked coaching, he really liked working with volunteers. So I think, I don't know if you experienced this, Natasha, but I think an awful lot of clients come to us as coaches, really expecting us to come up with something that they've never thought of before, a brand new idea or job title they've never heard of, or the magic answer. And Paul is like many, many clients in that the answer is already there. In fact, the fact he's still inside the same organization, but what he's done is negotiated a new pathway. I think that's really, really interesting because it's a good reminder that says you don't actually have to make a massive transformation sometimes. The most important thing that we may need to do is to work out what these key ingredients are, work out what's working and what's not working in a particular situation. So it was good that he talked to you about the things he enjoyed and things he didn't enjoy so much. But the fact that he, having gone through a big process of exploration, and I was really impressed by the number of information interviews he did and how he did them, great stuff. But the fact that he's staying in the same organization, to me, is actually really, really helpful. It's not a sense of none of that work. It's because it gave him the confidence and awareness to say, what am I really looking for in life? What's the mix of things? And I can't remember if he talked about the disagreements or components or whatever, but he really got the idea quite early on.

Natasha

And it's so interesting to hear you talking about that as such a positive because I was struck by how much there was about his previous job that he loved. And then there was the time element and the demands of the shifts that took such a huge toll on him. And it made me think of the position that so many people that I work with find themselves in where they're They're sort of in a position of too good to leave, but too bad to stay. There's so much about this that I love that I can't bring myself to go or think about making a career change. But staying is also intolerable. And that blend of good things and bad things can either, as you say, be looked at as, oh, thank goodness, I've got some of these key ingredients that I can go forward with. Or they can be looked at as, kind of velvet handcuffs, right?

John

Yeah, totally. What really interested me about Paul's story and the way you talked him through it was looking for that pivot point. The phrase you used was a circuit breaker. The kind of question I often ask my clients is to say, what prompted you to pick up the phone or what prompted you to press send on an email? The point is, it's the request that says, I need some help. I can't carry on in this moment. Something needs to change. And it's always good to look at that because there is a sort of pivot point in his story that says, if I carry on doing this, it's just going to make me really ill and it's going to have terrible effects. He talked about the consequences of this on family life and everything else. And it's so true. So I think lots of people will find it really helpful to hear about that pivot point and to think about what people can do Paul did the classic thing of going to the end of the job market, which looks like activity, which is going to job boards. But as you and I know, that often leads to disappointment and frustration and a sense of rejection because you never hear anything back. So when you ask the question at the end, what would you do differently? I'd hope that he would say that reaching out to people, exploring ideas, making connections, opening doors... looking at possibilities really hard would now be much more useful to him than sending off random applications or getting stuck in his own thought circles, staying inside his head too long as well.

Natasha

Yeah, which is such a natural thing to do. And I was really struck by the way he talked about that in particular. He talked about them as being cognitive distortions. Right. And those questions of like, what else could I possibly do? I'm going to be like this forever. I'm going to be exhausted forever. I'm going to feel hopeless forever. And what I found really insightful was how he said he'd almost got attached to those negative ideas. They were familiar. And so he found them really hard to let go of. And I wonder when you work with people and you notice these things, thought patterns of I can't possibly leave, my only options are to scroll through the job boards. How do you help them to shake those loose when sometimes they're the only things they can cling to?

John

And they do, people do cling to them. I love the way Paul described them as almost as anchors, you know, as things you have to hang on to even though they're painful. I guess it's fair to say that my approach is to think about the way people make decisions. So, because they come with this idea that what they're going to do is to make a big decision about their future. They're going to decide what career path they want to follow or what's the job that they're going to go for. And in fact, it's the wrong kind of decision-making because you just don't know enough about anything yet. So the only decision to make is to explore and to explore a wide range of things. And as we know from Paul's story, when he did that, with an admirably wide range of people, he just learns loads of stuff. And things start to open for him, and he starts to apply filters and leave things out, and get more and more focused on the things that work well for him. So I think it's about saying, well, the classic coaching question is, what happens if nothing changes? So yes, those negative thoughts have attraction, don't they? But they're also toxic. So what happens if nothing changes? People usually talk about, aspire often. health difficulties and confidence issues. And then another coaching question or something like that I use is, if you were doing this for somebody else, what would you do? And then people come up with all kinds of activities. You've got to find a way of breaking through those little micro-barriers that say, I'm happy where I am, grass is always greener, there's not much out there, job boards are telling me I can't get a job, so therefore I'll stay in this mode. Pulled out, there's various stages in his story, pulled out lots of interesting sector ideas. And I just sort of thought, although, you know, he presented someone saying, I don't really know what to do next. Like most of the people you and I work with, Natasha, he does actually know a lot of stuff about what he wants to do next. And he had a long list of sectors, you know, like psychology and nutrition and well-being and collecting and various aspects of science, coins. So there's a whole range of things that you can get really intensely curious about. I find it fascinating, and maybe this is to do with the negative thinking, how people refuse to reveal to themselves the things that they know are already interesting and great for minds of inquiry. Does that make sense?

Natasha

It makes perfect sense. And I wonder if you follow that thought further, what do you think is going on there? Why do you think it's so hard for people to say, these are the things I know and I am clear about some of what I want?

John

Well, I think there are, you know, the old theory. I think it might have been Richard Nodal, the American career specialist. He said everybody in the world knows exactly what they want to do next. But half of the people haven't yet found words to describe it. And the other 50%, they really do know, and they're too frightened to say it. So the second reason is a very powerful one. People don't like to reveal to themselves these ideas. Because they say they're unrealistic. So a client I'm working with recently asked the question, well, what have you already thought about? Want to do something different? What have you already considered? And she said, well, I could tell you, but the ideas are a bit crazy. And I said, I want to know the crazy ones first. And then when she told me the crazy ideas, which are actually not at all crazy, they're great ideas, she also said, but all my friends tell me they're not realistic. And I said, yeah, that's your problem. It's about you've got to... find a way of doing open exploration. So I think you're right. What gets in the way of revealing things to ourselves or acknowledging the things that we're good at as the inward bit and things that we're fascinated by, that's the outward bit, isn't it? And saying and naming them and saying they're all valuable enough to at least have one information interview on the back of them. And that's where the negative thinking about what's realistic and I'm not good enough or They won't pay the bills. All that stuff just gets in the way.

Natasha

And those dreams and the ones that feel a bit crazy and the ones that people don't want to say, they're often so tender. They're very soft places in people's hearts. And I can really understand how scary it must be to think, if I let these out and then I find out that I can't have them for whatever reason... that's really going to hurt. That's going to be sore. That's going to kill my darlings. I'd rather just keep them safe here in the dark than let them out to die. And I can completely get that. I can completely get it. But as you say, what's the alternative, right? What's the cost of doing nothing?

John

Well, it's what I said earlier about decision-making, because if you think I can only talk about this if I'm now going to decide that's the preferred outcome, that's my goal, then you get nowhere. But if you say, here's an interesting idea and I want to explore it. And the reason I like the creative ideas is actually that that's where all the clues are. So, you know, if somebody wants to really test me and says, John, okay, I want to be an astronaut and I can't be an astronaut because I'm, you know, I'm too old, I'm too overweight, I don't have any science degrees. If they really mean I want to be an astronaut, I know that that's big clues there about exploration and adventure and risk-taking and doing stuff that nobody else has done before. So I'll let them play with it with me. So the world of the idea is that the more clues there are about key ingredients which have to stay in the mix, that's where Paul got to really in many ways.

Natasha

Yeah. And as you said, Paul, it sounds like, is now officially the king of the informational interview. I know that you're a big advocate of these for career changes. Yeah. What is the biggest thing that you see changes for people when they put these ideas into language and then go and start having these conversations with people?

John

Paul's almost like one of the best examples I've come across. First of all, persistence in doing lots of them. And second, understanding what you get out of them. Yeah. So, I mean, the benefits are huge because it's Although all the things that Paul talked about in terms of gathering information and getting pathways and getting connections and introductions, they're great. But also people remember you. And that's the thing I like about them is that you're changing your visibility in the world. And what people remember about you is they remember the thing you are curious about. So they're not remembering the fact that you're uncertain or you're between jobs or whatever. They don't remember that much about your background, but they do remember that's the person's really interested in green fuel for aviation or something like that. And they'll channel information and connections and ideas towards you. So, yeah, they work. It's fascinating, isn't it? Considering the other thing he tried, which is basically throwing himself in a very random way at an unsympathetic job market, it's almost a great working definition of how... doors are open. But I think in Paul's case, it's interesting that it didn't take him as it could have done into something completely new and different. It actually affirmed his sense of what he's good at and what he enjoys in the context so that he could actively negotiate a new pathway inside his own organization.

Natasha

Yeah. And that's another example of that choice around perspective that you were talking about, right? Because you could look at Paul's story and say he had over 80 conversations with people from so many different industries and different backgrounds and different worlds of work and he ended up in the same company. What a waste of time, right? So much time dedicated to having all of these conversations and he didn't end up becoming a professional coin dealer, for example. But as you say, from every single one of those conversations, he got a little nugget that ooched him forward and helped him clarify yes to this, no to that, maybe a bit more of this.

John

Well, he also said he met fascinating people. He got loads of new friends. And he's learning how to exclude things in a way that he is satisfied with. A coaching question is to say, what would you regret? When you get to the stage when you're too old to work, what would you regret? And that's a good way of dialing it back to say, well, I think I would have liked to have tried something. But I think information interviews can get that out of your system because he did look at auctions and all kinds of things. And I think he's not going to say, I wish I'd tried that. He's going to say, I found out enough about it to know it's interesting, but it's not quite me. So if you think of the return on investment of that time compared with taking jobs that you don't really like because you don't know enough about them. It's a fantastic tool because you build confidence, it changes your visibility, you learn stuff, but at the same time, it's very controlled risk, isn't it? Because you're not actually making a decision apart from one tiny decision, which is to have that conversation and then to get somebody to bounce you off.

Natasha

And as he said... There's people that he connected with then before this shift who offered him ideas and possibilities that he's now considering for maybe his next shift, right? He spoke to the guy about biohacking and he was like, I didn't know that was a thing. And now that I know, maybe that's something I want to do in the future. So it pays off long beyond what you might be up to right now or it can do.

John

Well spotted, that's right. Because it's a framework for the future, isn't it? So if people think of it as a transactional thing you do to get one job, want to make one change, they really misunderstand. It draws maps, it opens connections. And it's understandable that Paul doesn't want to say too much yet about what he might do next, but all the clues are there, aren't they? The idea about setting up his own business or following out this new area of science. But the great thing is that I think he will make that change. And when he does, he'll know what the ingredients are that he wants to take into the role with him. But he'll also know how to build on connections. And it may happen just simply because somebody makes an introduction for him or opens a door or just emails him with a link. All of those things are possible.

Natasha

Yeah, completely. Paul, of course, did the launchpad with us and on the Launchpad, we teach a fair bit about how to get started with informational interviews and how to approach them in the most effective way. To listen to Paul tell the story now, it sounds like he's just an evil genius at this and he's super confident and he just threw himself right in. But I'm imagining maybe listeners to this conversation thinking, well, this all sounds glorious, but it also sounds absolutely terrifying. I don't know how to start. I don't want to look silly. What if people think I'm taking up too much of their time. If somebody wants to just dip their toe into the land of these kinds of conversations, what's your advice on how they might get started?

John

It's uplifting to hear Paul talk about this, partly because it's the stuff that you and I have talked through with loads and loads of groups, really. So where do you start? You start with easy. You really do. If you don't like talking about yourself, and you don't really feel comfortable asking questions, or it feels a bit icky, or a bit transactional, you just start with people you know really, really well. And you say, this is going to sound a bit weird, but can I ask you five questions? And the amazing thing is, I think, I don't think I know, that people get better at this after three attempts. And that's amazing, isn't it? So they think, I have to do hundreds of these, I have to spend years doing before i get it right well actually they get it right in about three or four iterations and then they're already bouncing on to two interesting people so yeah start easy do it your own way but do something it does help a bit of a script and paul gave us the key ingredients for the script that's fine because as you get better at it you can operate script free you know the way i work this actually i like people to be reflective but active at the same time so i while we're working on cataloging their skills and so on, I'm also saying, go and talk to people. And even if they say I don't know anybody, I just ignore that, really. So 20 minutes later, I'll say, right, give me the first names of three people you're going to talk to in the next week. And they always do. Because it can be Jim next door, it can be my brother-in-law, it can be the milkman. It doesn't really matter. It's just got to start somewhere. And the amazing thing is you don't know who or what these people know. even if you've known them for 40 years, you actually don't know all of their external connections. So you're saying I'm interested in nutrition or biodiversity or any of those things. You may well get the answer. Yeah, I know somebody that does that. And there you are, you're away. You'll always get more introductions. So yeah, start anywhere. But I think the important point that I didn't quite deal with that you asked about was how long it takes. I wouldn't want people to be put off by the fact that Paul did a lot of these because he needed to do a lot. He wanted to. And I think it's helped him. It's given him clarity and focus and probably helped his confidence too. Because I think he could easily be put off to say, I've got to have to do 80 of these and that's going to take me 12 months. Well, you don't. You could probably get great results with a dozen conversations and then you'd start to get focused. So don't let that put you off either.

Natasha

I just got the vibe that Paul was just loving it. He was like, this is fun. Let's do some more. Maybe he did 80 because he was just having a great time versus he absolutely had to, right?

John

Compared to his experience of work, I think he found it really positive. I think it was a fantastic antidote to burnout for him.

Natasha

And that's such a difficult backdrop to be generating a career change on top of. You know, he sounded like he really hit A rough time when he left his previous job for those six months. To be able to find the energy to do all of this kind of thing on top of that is huge.

John

I like the way you gave him a lot of space and lots of time to tell that story because I know it's important. If people don't feel they can tell that story and you don't keep providing a space to say, tell me a bit more, how did that feel? Then it's hard to move forward. Because I think I really do feel people need to have to get that story out and think about it and process it. And maybe with more than one person. Then you can think, where do you go next? Because otherwise, you're papering over the cracks, aren't you? Saying, well, this is just an experience. You can get beyond it. Let's just write your CV. It's not as simple as that. This is a big life experience. And it matters, I think, also in terms of the energy that someone like Paul takes into it. the conversations that move on afterwards. So, you know, if you or I were coaching about that, just when he's coming out of burnout, I mean, I don't know how you work with clients in that situation, but I tend to be really, really careful and say, give yourself a break. Take some time out if you can. Don't rush into high-level conversations, particularly with senior decision-makers, for example, until you're absolutely ready. Be kind to yourself. Do some regrouping. Get some recovery involved. in that space before you go out there. Because it's vulnerable, isn't it? You know, when people go to the marketplace, even if they're saying, I'm interested in what you would do for a living, that's a vulnerable thing to do. And it's hard to go without vulnerability when you've been beaten up.

Natasha

Totally. And at the same time, people feel such tension between wanting to give themselves space and be kind to themselves, but also feeling that pressure of like, I need to know where I'm going next. I don't know how long it's going to take me to find out where I want to go next. I must be taking action. I should be doing something. And that tension is really quite something to navigate when you're already exhausted. So I think he did phenomenally well.

John

Listening to the whole recording, one of the things I did, which I do instinctively, is listen for energy levels. It's interesting, isn't it? The sort of lack of energy of talking about the first part and the sadness, really, talking about the first part of his career. And then some of the other things coming in, talking about the information interviews, talking about particular ideas for the future, talking about ideas that he got to talk to people about, even talking about some of the aspects of his current role. In fact, particularly his current role, the energy levels were sky high. And that's a great clue for anybody, isn't it? Whether you're coaching somebody or thinking about the way you're talking about your experience. Look at where the energy comes in. If you just find one or two things that you are naturally energised about when you're talking to other people about your work, then those are big clues, I think, for moving forward, aren't they?

Natasha

Enormous, yeah. And for moving forward from a place of burnout or from a place of exhaustion, you need a bit of energy in. You need something that feeds you or that lights you up a little bit to lift you out of the darkness. And so if you can spot even just one or two of those and use those as jumping off points, perhaps for your first informational interview, then it's almost like you're getting out of the downward spiral down the plug hole and getting on the upward spiral that can eventually lead you out.

John

Some

Natasha

of that comes

John

from encounter. So one of the great spinoffs of information interviews is you tend to be pointed towards people who share your values. So you tend to be pointed towards people who have the same view of the world or like the same things as you do. So that's really helpful. But also you can, through self-examination or through coaching, learn how to focus on the things that have given you energy. you've probably heard me say a thousand times, Natasha, it's much easier to say I really enjoy than to say I'm good at. So even at that point of burnout or even at that point of feeling I've got no energy for anything, it's still possible to say, well, actually, these are the things that fascinate me right now or I'm interested in, and these are the things I enjoy doing.

Natasha

Yeah. So Paul's shift led him perhaps unexpectedly close to home, right? And I thought it was interesting how he talked about feeling like a fraud, taking the sort of title of career changer because it wasn't a big shift. And I was curious from your perspective, when you think about the people that you've worked with, what sort of proportion of them come to you with the expectation that fulfillment can only come from a big 180? Like it's got to be a big significant move. Is that the picture that most people have?

John

Yeah, I think so, a large proportion. I think it's because it's some sense of, I haven't found it yet, or it's been kept away from me, or it's a reality that's hidden from me, or there's something just outside my grasp. Well, there's two angles to this, really. Well, having trained recruiters for a long time, I know that they tend to be quite cynical about career changes, because they tend to think You're just going to play with this idea for six weeks, and then you're going to go back into a conventional role in the industry that you're already in. But the other aspect to it is that it is a mindset thing, isn't it, to say that for many people, what they do next is actually reframing of what they already know. So it's very, very unlikely to be something completely outside their skill range, something where their previous knowledge has no application at all. But it may be a combination of things that they haven't thought of yet. I think for Paul, it was a combination of skills. So I think what he did for himself was starting to understand the things he enjoyed doing. At the same time, he started to articulate really well the things he enjoys knowing about. And just skills and knowledge, those two things coinciding for him, is working pretty well.

Natasha

And the lifestyle element of it, which I think also... I don't know if it gets enough airtime, really, in the career change conversation. You know, he was talking about autonomy, about having more time to himself, about working in a way that opened up space for the self-care practices that were really important to him. And often I see career changes, and I was certainly guilty of this when I made my own shift, of focusing so hard on the what am I going to be doing and what's the job title. But I forgot about all of these other elements that are also really important clues of how I want to work and who I want to work with and what I want to be working in service of. And I was really impressed by how clear he was about that throughout his story.

John

And that sounds in good corrective to what I've just said, because I missed that. It's not just what he's good at, what he enjoys doing. doing, it's also what works for him in the context. So things like being able to work from home, part-time working, and he did say this, but it's sort of being careful about the kind of pressures that he's under. When careers work well, they work because of a set of ingredients that we understand and we start to have some control over. So it's not about perfect job, it's about saying, understand what works for you as a set of ingredients, and if you're getting 7 out of 10-ish, it's probably great. Although I suspect Paul's got another big idea. He's already started to think about.

Natasha

Well, totally. That's such a well-peddled image, you know, the idea of the ideal job and the forever career and find your dream workplace or your dream role. It sets so many people up for real disappointment or failure, perhaps, because they feel like, oh, well, I'm not getting all of my needs met in this one place, or this doesn't tick every single one of my boxes, therefore, have I really done it? But seven out of 10 is a nice, realistic, but juicy number. I like that.

John

It's three and a half days a week. Three and a half days a week, if you're appropriately engaged and you're enjoying what you're doing, enjoying the people around, and it feels there's good outcomes, then that's workable. Yeah, I read an article just last week saying, you know, we all should trust the idea of the dream job. And I thought, well, you know, career professionals have been holding that back forever, you know, because the thing you just described there is about the perfect job. And that's why I get suspicious about words like passion. You know, it's a sense that you find this one role that's perfect forever. Well, actually, what that does is it stops people exploring because it's, you know, it's a bit like saying, well, The other side of the world, there's these people living the beautiful life, and they've all got super yachts, and they've all got the private islands, and I'll never get there. So therefore, I'm never going to do a hard day's work in my life because it's not worth it. So if you think, until I get the perfect job in my sights, and there's no point doing anything, it's a great excuse, isn't it, for inactivity. But the ingredients model says you're built up. So, all right, you may not get to seven out of ten, And Paul's story tells us a bit about this. It didn't quite get to the right mix. It took one step by covering an interim role. But you get there in stages, fairly short stages. You don't wait 20 years. But you start by saying, well, I want five and a half out of 10, and you build on that. So for me, the ingredients model works because of agency. People actually have the power to And they discover they have the power to not only name the things they want, but to start to negotiate them and to look for them and to hang on to them as well.

Natasha

It requires, or it sounds like it requires, sort of taking the long view of life and careers and ourselves as people, right? It's the recognition that maybe this next step isn't going to be ideal or perfect or wonderful, but it's going to get me a little closer. And in the fullness of time, I'll continue to evolve and grow and get nearer to something that's an even better fit as I gather this data and information. Do you think that's true, that it requires a kind of a longer perspective on where we're trying to get to? I

John

don't know, because in today's fast-paced world, where organizations are reinventing themselves every two years anyways, I think people need an 18-month window, and that's about it. Really? So, yeah. No, I truly don't think I need to sort of carry on doing this because in 10 years' time it might all work out. The thing about an 18-month window is that the first six months of that might be a stepping stone role, and then the next is something you really want to move into. The other thing about an 18-month window is that you have to do something about it fairly fast, and you have to keep on top of things like skill development and connecting with people all the time and all the things that we know make a successful career. And it's very, very tangible. I've found that people have said to me, this is a really bad year to be looking for a new job. And the thing is, they've been saying that every year for at least 25 years. Yes. Market conditions have changed a lot in that period, but people haven't.

Natasha

And I like that 18-month window to put some brackets around it as a game to play or something to aim for. Paul was also talking quite a lot about accountability. And having people to check in on and like, are you doing something about this? Are you taking a daily action, a weekly action? And giving yourself a time period that's long enough to be realistic, but also kind of puts the pressure on just enough to keep it spicy. It's nice.

John

I mean, that's what the launchpad does. People can do it for themselves, but the structure of something like launchpad makes people accountable in a very gentle and very friendly way. You know, you can do it for yourself by having, I would say, get two people to support you rather than one. So it's not a mentor or a coach. It's more like two buddies who are actually listening to what you're saying at the same time and then saying, well, look at it this way or try it this way or here's an idea for you. And they remind you what you could ask as well. But yes, accountability is such an important part of the process because it's interesting how much of what Paul said was internalized, wasn't it? He tried to make sense of the very, very difficult experience and huge puzzles and huge disappointment and something verging on misery, really. And most of the time, I got the sense he was trying to work that out on his own. People were noticing changes in him, but he didn't have people around him saying, let's press pause together. Let's see where we really are. Let's see what we can make of this. So maybe accountability is... not strong enough word, because it is actually, it's a bit like having friends that give you tough love, isn't it? I mean, they really have your interests at heart, but they say, you can't get away with that statement, John, or don't beat yourself up too long here, John, because you really do have skills. You know, you need people like that as well, don't you?

Natasha

Yeah, it's that idea, that Latin idea of communitas, right? Everybody's in this mix together, we're all dealing with the same stuff, and I can see myself in you. You can see myself in me. You know, Paul talked about it. He said it was the first time I felt optimistic in as long as I could remember once I had those people around me. That was such a turning point for him. And it's so under-prioritized, I think, by people who are trying to make a career change often. It's like, I need to do this by myself. I need to crack on. I'm fine, thanks. It's my job. It's not your problem. But it's such an accelerator for people.

John

It's such a new part of human experience. I mean, that's what really interests me. What I mean by that is, if you go back to my great-grandparents' generation, and yours as well, they were much more defined by the locality. They probably weren't going to leave the area they were brought up in, and they were going to look at, probably had a range of jobs that was no more than 15 jobs that they might go into. You know, if you write, you might become a schoolteacher or you might go into one of the trades or occupations. So in the early part of the 20th century, the two biggest sources of employment in the UK were domestic labour and agricultural labour. There was vast numbers of people. So you didn't actually have to do much choosing. So the modern banks that career coaches are dealing with day by day, what should I be doing? is partly prompted by the fact that we have tens of thousands of choices that previous generations didn't have. And to come back to the point you just made, for some reason, we've learned that we have to deal with this as individuals. And there is an alternative career theory which are actually around careers being set in communities, that we share career pathways, that we support each other, that careers are built in communities and by working with other people. I think there's a lot of mileage in that. It's very interesting. Because if you think this is a huge problem and I've got to deal with it on my own, I've got to somehow come up with the internal resources to get past this road bump, that's a big ask, isn't it? People don't think. Sometimes they just have it naturally. People around them that are really good at supporting them and gently making them accountable as well.

Natasha

What have we not touched on that feels important to pull out from Paul's story?

John

If Paul was here with us now, I'd be first of all congratulating him on some really successful information interviews. I've got half a thought. Let's see if this works. The thought still lingering for me is the way he has used the word shift and the way we've used it today. And of course, it is language very much attached to the launchpad. But I think it's very healthy language because rather than saying big, dangerous moments of change. It's not like driving a car off the cliff. Shift comes across as something which takes place repeatedly. So you talked about my next shift. It's a process. It's a process that reveals itself through connections with people. So it feels to me quite user-friendly, not too threatening. So I think it's a great word. And I think I would properly say they might be helpful to lots of people to start to think about that process of change. So taking the kind of catastrophizing out of it, because things can sometimes shift along by half an inch, can't they? I think it's quite a helpful and gentle word. Just be curious, agenda-free curiosity. It's really powerful stuff.

Natasha

John, thank you so much for coming and sharing talking to me about Paul and all of the insights that you've had around his story. I think Paul will be excited to listen to this episode. Hi, Paul, as will all of our listeners. If people want to find out more about you and your books and what you're up to, where should they look?

John

It's johnleescareers.com. Just Google John Lees and the word careers and you'll find me.

Natasha

Well, thank you so much.

John

Oh, great pleasure. Great fun. And thank you, Paul. A really interesting story and some fantastic insights, I think, which will be so helpful to a lot of other people.

Natasha

Told you John was brilliant, didn't I? A huge thank you to John Lees for joining me for this episode. I hope you enjoyed our conversation as much as I did. Coming up next week, we'll be hearing from Maria about how she's learning to manage the juggle of shifting in the latter stage of her career amidst the competing priorities of family life. I spent a lot of that time with children and juggling work, wanting to hit the pause button. If you haven't already, make sure to follow the podcast so you can catch Maria's story right away. And I'll see you then.