Tribal Weed Management

Weed management is important throughout Minnesota, with many different entities doing essential work to minimize the effects noxious and invasive weeds have on our environment. 

Minnesota's 11 indigenous tribes are sovereign nations, each contributing their own perspective on ways to manage weeds. In this episode, Phil Defoe from the Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Chippewa and Raining White from the Leech Lake Band of Ojibwe join host Jennifer Burington to discuss their tribes' weed management efforts and unique perspectives on the topic. 

Smarty Plants is a podcast of the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. Visit www.mda.state.mn.us/plants-insects/smarty-plants for more episodes. Look for a new episode of Smarty Plants every month.

Transcript

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Jennifer Burington: 0:20

Welcome to Smarty Plants, a Minnesota Department of Agriculture podcast inform citizens about invasive species that affect our environment and agricultural resources. My name is Jennifer Burington, and I will be your host. Invasive and noxious weeds affect places far and wide in Minnesota. Today we'll be discussing how two of Minnesota's tribes managed these weeds on their sovereign lands. Joining us is Phil Defoe from Fond du Lac Band and Raining White from the Leech Lake Band. Phil is a Red Cliff tribal member and belongs to the Fond du Lac and Lac de Flambeau communities as well. He went to the University of Wisconsin Superior for biology and focused on botany and entomology. He has worked in water quality, air quality, and invasive species over his career and has worked for the Fond du Lac Band for 13 years. He is currently working as an invasive species specialist. He spends most of his time outside of work raising children and taking part in traditional Ojibwe seasonal activities. His favorite things to do are to take part in treaty harvesting and growing food for his family and community. Thanks for joining us, Phil.

Raining White: 1:25

Thank you.

Jennifer Burington: 1:26

Raining is a Leech Lake Band member and has the great opportunity to work for his tribe For the past seven years, he started as a seasonal and invasive species technician, removing terrestrial species within reservation boundaries. His second season, he was hired as a crew lead for invasive species work. He then was able to stay on as a full-time permanent employee. In 2023, he was made the assistant program manager for the plants department and has since helped grow the department and expand their capacity. His most recent focus has been on aquatic vegetation and aquatic invasive species. His he is passionate about water, tribal sovereignty, the environment, and gathering or hunting local foods. Thanks for joining us raining.

Raining White: 2:08

Thanks for having me.

Jennifer Burington: 2:09

So to get started, we'll kind of cover a little bit about each of, um, your tribal lands. So how are tribal lands similar to and different from other lands in Minnesota?

Phil Defoe: 2:23

First of all, if it's all right, I'm gonna introduce myself. Anishinaabe greeting and introduction follows.

Jennifer Burington: 2:29

Thank you.

Phil Defoe: 2:31

Uh, I would just say that, um, the state and the reservation both share, um, similarities in the sense that they have, um, boundaries that they operate within. Um, and they also have. Public land and private land. Um, I think where it differs is when with the reservations, most of the lands were, are fractionated. Um, and so you have private land ownership, uh, tribal land ownership. You have state and federal land ownership industry, sometimes own land within reservations, and then also private tribal ownership. So we have all these different, uh. Fractionated lands within the reservation boundaries?

Raining White: 3:22

Yeah, I'd say it's pretty similar for Leech Lake. Um, if I can introduce myself too, 'cause I think it's important to speak our language on, on things like this and in general, Anishinaabe greeting follows.. Um, but yeah, I think Phil covered it pretty well. You know, we're, we're pretty fractured in our. Our ownership of our land, but we do have jurisdiction within the reservation boundaries. So for noxious weeds, for example, we can set our own, um, lists of what we want eradicated removed, you know, and they don't necessarily have to align with the state list. Um, and in my mind, you know, I'm not a tribal lawyer. Tribal law is very, very complicated. So I'll, I'll pre preface with that, but, uh. You know, we, we kind of take precedent over our own jurisdiction and our own, uh, ordinances over the state. And so we really focus on, on what we want. Um, as far as going with the state rules and regulations. So federal, it's a little bit different. You know, we, we have to interact with the federal government, um, kind of nation to nation, but with the state, you know, we, we really value our sovereignty and our decision making.

Jennifer Burington: 4:36

Nice. So what does it mean to be a sovereign nation when it comes to land management in Minnesota? Raining, if you wanna continue.

Raining White: 4:46

Yeah. Um, again, it's a very complicated issue. Um, sovereign, you know, to be completely sovereign is, is kind of hard to do. And as, as a Leech Laker, because there are so many different ownerships within our reservations. Um, we shared 40% of our land base, I believe, um, with the Chippewa National Forest, which is a federal agency. So, you know, recently we got into a memorandum of understanding with them, renewed a memorandum of understanding, um, basically making, having shared decision making on, on those lands, which is a huge step, uh, for us and for the United States Forest Service. But I think being sovereign, you know, is just the ability to. To use our rights that we retained when these treaties were signed. You know, um, it's kind of a key point to understand that our, our harvesting rights and our hunting and our, our treaty rights weren't given to us. They were, we retained them when we signed these treaties. So, you know, the federal government is, isn't allowing us to do these things. We are in agreement that we have always done these things and we continue to do 'em and that. You know, they, they recognize that. So I think that's very important to understand sovereignty in that sense. That, um, you know, Leech Lakers and every tribe in Minnesota was here before Minnesota existed, you know, and they'll be here and they continue to be here. So, to be sovereign to me is just having the, the ability to understand that we are a, you know, a sovereign, I think they call 'em domestic nations in federal law, but. You know, it's laid out in the, the Constitution how the federal government interacts with us. And so just having that ability to make our own decisions, um, around our natural resources, around our, our courts and our ordinances and things like that. Um, for land management specifically, like I alluded to, there's, we have our own noxious weed lists, our own regulations for hunting and fishing and gathering. Um, and so really we really prioritize, you know, our tribal citizens and then folks that live in, within the reservation that are maybe non-tribal. And then we kind of go to the table with the state and kind of decide what is best for everybody. You know, what, what could we do together? So,

Phil Defoe: 7:14

yeah, and, and, uh, it's our inherent right through treaty making. Um, treaties are supreme law of the land and, um. We, we retain the right to hunt, fish, and gather within our ceded territories. Um, that's for, for Fond du Lac. That's the 1854 ceded territory and '37. Um, and we push our sovereignty the fullest any moment that we have. Um, and so to have control, or not so much control, but, uh. Say over what happens within the seated territory and within the reservation. Boundaries is very important. And again, that's, that's pushing our sovereignty to the fullest. And we do that in every chance that we get. Um, and those resources, those beings that give us life, that's, that's what really encompasses all of that and why we push our sovereignty so much.

Jennifer Burington: 8:21

Thanks. And this one you'll probably have, um, some differences between the two tribes here, but what are the main goals your tribes have when it comes to noxious weed management in particular? Uh, Phil, if you wanna start.

Phil Defoe: 8:37

Sure. Um, the main goals is pretty much all of our plans and our, our, um, long-term goals for having a relationship with invasive species. Revolve around, uh, harvesting our traditional foods, um, and medicines. So with that in mind, that's how we plan forward ahead, you know, and we always, as human beings, we plan generations ahead. We also do the same for, um, as advocates and a voice for those that can't speak for themselves. Or maybe they can, we're just not listening. But, um. Being that advocate, we plan ahead, um, generations ahead also. So those are all integrated into, you know, the way that we have a relationship with invasive species.

Raining White: 9:28

Yeah, I would say that our, our goal at Leech Lake, we kind of pivoted towards, um, restoration. So instead of, you know, removal and eradication, we want our lands where these, you know, maybe not so good for humans or. Agriculture, these species of plants that are affecting us in some way. We want to return that to maybe what it was before they came in. You know, maybe not quite pre colonization because our climate has changed and our environment has changed. But to get it more of a balance where we're not constantly removing something.'cause if you take something out, you know, and you don't fill it back in, they come back. I think we all know that as people that work with invasive species. Um, and I guess, so restoration, you know, is kind of at the forefront of our, of our management policies, especially when it comes to noxious weeds. And, um, just making sure that, you know, we are respecting the native plants there and giving them space to come back and thrive. Um. And I think that's really the biggest part of it, is just kind of changing our philosophy and looking at, you know, it's not a battle, it's not, you know, these kind of, uh, combative language. You know, we're, we're just, we want to understand what's going on, why they came here, where they came from, and how do we, you know, how do we work with that to, to restore to our lands of that our people can use, you know?

Jennifer Burington: 11:05

Mm-hmm. And so kinda continuing on with that, like how does tribal weed management philosophy, and you talked a little bit about this raining, um, how does your weed manage or. Both of your tribes' weed management philosophies agree with and differ from the state of Minnesota's approach. Um, just kind of, um, you kind of alluded to a little bit about protecting the native species mm-hmm. As a priority. Um, whereas sometime with the obnoxious weed list, we have the specific list, um, on what people are supposed to do when they find each of these particular species. So if you wanna continue your conversation on that, a little bit Raining.

Raining White: 11:45

Yeah. I think, um, early in my career I was sent to a, uh. A climate adaptation training, um, in Red Cliff actually. But that kind of really changed, like flipped a switch in my brain because they talked about, you know, invasive species, you know, noxious weeds, weeds, you know, they make it so harmful at these plant and these plants are just existing, you know, mostly brought here by human activity, if not all of 'em, by human activity. And so just, you know. And I'd get frustrated, like my first season working, pulling garlic mustard for 10 hours and I'm like, I would smell garlic mustard in my dreams. And, and I'm like, this is so annoying. And it's so, you know, what is wrong with this plant that it, that it's doing this? And I went to this training and they talked about language, about, you know, around climate change and, uh, kind of philosophy from at least the Ojibwe. That these aren't, you know, noxious weeds. They're not, they're not out to harm you on purpose. They're not, you know, parsnip didn't evolve to, to harm us. You know, it's, it's trying to protect itself with its its sap. But, uh, and so they said, you know, maybe we can start calling 'em non-native beings. So it still addresses that, that they're not from this area or whatever area you're in, but they still, we still have to respect them as something that's living and try to understand, you know. What is happening that's making 'em kind of take over certain places or things. So I think just from hearing that, you know, I think there could be a, a big language change and kind of in general, obnoxious weeds. Um, it's so, I don't wanna say negative, but combative. You know, there's a lot of the war on noxious weeds or the, the, you know, we gotta pull 'em and cut 'em and, you know, all these things, which, which is. Definitely a necessity, but it just, you know, for me it makes me so tense. Like, oh, I gotta gear up and go, go knock out all these weeds and eradicate them and, you know, make 'em disappear. Um, so I think that, you know, that kind of differs a little bit for, for Leech Lake at least. And, uh, but you know, there is agreement that, that these, these things aren't. Maybe shouldn't be here. And what can we do to kind of, to steer that back to, you know, more of a natural and complete ecosystem. And it's a delicate balance. It is a delicate balance.'cause on

Phil Defoe: 14:15

one hand you want to, you want to preserve the native species and then on, but on the other hand, you have to have a relationship with them because they're here now. Mm-hmm. Um, respect all life. So. How do you, how do you work with that? And that's the challenge that we step up to and we take on.

Raining White: 14:33

Yep. Yeah, that's a good point. So yeah, that's really all I have to say about that part. I think, you know, we're not, we're not trying to butt heads with the state on purpose in some of these, you know, in all these areas of tribal sovereignty. But, so there is agreement that, you know, some of these things have to be taken care of, but how do we take care of 'em is kind of what I find the most different between different agencies. Hmm.

Phil Defoe: 14:59

Yeah, and I'll, I'll add something to that. Um, when I first started working with invasive species, um, we would get out, we would, you know, go out and weed whip tansy and, and kind of lower their populations. The goal is to, to, uh, minimize populations to, um, a manageable amount. Um, I was out weed whipping. And I got into it, put my headphones on, was listening to music, was really getting into it. Um, maybe a little bit too much.'cause later that night I had a dream as everything was black. And, uh, tansy came, A tansy plant came to me. Everything, just nothing but blackness could see this tansy plant just vibrant. Um, and it slapped me in the face hard. And I woke straight up outta my sleep. And I was like, what in the world was that? Well, you know, I was taught to go put tobacco out and think about that for a little while. Ponder it. So I did that and I think really what it was was it was reminding me to have that respect.'cause that's a living being. And uh, and really that's the philosophy that we put forward, you know? Um. But these are living beings. And uh, and I think that that may be where things are different between the way that tribes approach things. And then, you know, the state might, and I'm not saying all the state, you know? Mm-hmm. I'm sure there's people within the state agencies that see things that way too. But in general with planning, you know, I think that's how

Raining White: 16:28

the institutions kind of set up in that, that way. And yeah, if we're talking about philosophy, you know, it's, there seemed like I was taught. You know that as a human being, I'm, I'm part of this world, you know, I'm not disconnected. And so I, for my work, you know, I'm try not to dominate something. I'm trying to, you know, would Bruce Lee say be like water flow with it, you know, and kind of adapt and understand, you know, that humans aren't separated from our natural world. We're, we're integrated into it directly and that that can really give us power to. To change things and adapt and, you know, help, help things heal, I guess.

Jennifer Burington: 17:15

So continuing with some, you have different approaches and different philosophies on weed management. So what are some of the methods that you use, um, by both of your tribal authorities if there are some similarities or differences?

Raining White: 17:32

Yeah. Um, we try to, you know, our. Plants department is expanding, but we're relatively, you know, historically pretty small. So our capacity expansion is a huge goal. And so we look at technology, you know, whether it's biocontrol, we've used biocontrol on, uh, purple loose strife, for example. Um, we got some knapweed weevils, um, leafy spurge, beetles. Um. Yeah. So that helps us, you know, it's kind of set and go. We, we focus on populations that are maybe isolated that can benefit from, you know, biocontrol. Um, but we use, you know, we don't use chemicals at all. Uh, and we can talk more about that later, but, so we do a lot of hand pulling, mechanical removal, um, kind of labor intensive things, but it. You know, it's, so with our limit capacity, we gotta focus on areas that are gonna make a bigger difference. So we're focusing around community centers for PIP, for example, or you know, high traffic areas, if there's a big population, a ditch or things like that. Um, we did just get some drones, which I'm super excited about. So, you know, we have. All sorts of these sensors on there that we just learned about last week. So thermo and, uh, multi-spectral. And so we're, you know, implement that kind of thing to kind of guide our decision making on management. Um, because, you know, when I first started there was like three of us out there and there's, you know, 800,000 acres of within the tribal boundaries. So. You could do the math. There's a lot of work to be had, you know, so any, anything that can, you know, make that work a little easier in a expander capacity. We're, we're always open for and new technology, you know, we're always seeing what's in the line for Biocontrol. Um, you know what, we have a hot water machine that we just got this year. We're gonna test out. It's basically gonna steam plants to death, so it's, you know, non-chemical, but it will be a little bit quicker hopefully than, than, uh. You know, traditional methods that we use, like cutting or, or herbicide on the state side. So, you know, when, when you don't use herbicides, folks say, well, what are you, what are you using? You know, they want, they want a solution, they want you to come up with it. So we're, we're willing to try anything, you know, to see how it does. But

Phil Defoe: 20:08

yeah, we mostly mechanical efforts, um, we. It would be nice to have drones that's in, that's in the plans. Um, but really most of ours we are 3, 3, 2 to three person unit most of the time. Maybe might get a couple seasonals to help out, but, uh, yeah, most of it's mechanical. Um, and we, we actually do use a little bit of herbicide. Um, it's a last case. Um, scenario when, when it's used and it's always at the lowest effective concentration, overall majority of what we do is, um, mechanical through or stressing through mechanical, um,

Jennifer Burington: 20:48

means. Yeah, I think most I. Most people that work with noxious weeds or invasive species management, I think we've all had many hours of pulling. Mm-hmm. Uh, pulling the different, especially garlic mustard. Oh yeah. I think everybody's had like hundreds and hundreds of hours, if not more, of pulling garlic mustard and you cannot. Just not see it everywhere. Yeah. It's like I tried so hard. We just keep going.

Raining White: 21:15

The curse of invasive species work. You just, mm-hmm.

Jennifer Burington: 21:17

Yep.

Raining White: 21:17

You come to a new city and you're like, oh, there's some tansy. What are they doing with that? Why is that sitting there? Yep. phragmites everywhere. Yeah. Oh

Jennifer Burington: 21:24

yeah. The phragmites. Yeah. As soon as you see it, you start to recognize it everywhere and you're like, oh, I thought it didn't think it was much of a problem, but it really is, and I can see it all over. So in relation to that, like we all kind of manage it differently, whether it's on our own, um, in our own yard or, um, at the park in the, in the community. But like how does noxious weed management differ for your tribal lands versus management recommendations from the, the state? You talked a little bit about using the pesticides. Um, what. Else kind of differs. I know you talked a little bit about too, the noxious, you each kind of have a different list on there as well.

Phil Defoe: 22:11

Yeah, I think, um, like I said, in very, um, I rare cases, we will use herbicide, you know, um, but the, the idea with that is, is that. Uh, we try not to use it for one thing. The majority of our lands are within our wetlands. Um, that's always an issue with, you know, drinking water and, uh, just the whole water topic. Um, the second thing would be that we, we have the majority of our members and community members harvest from the land. Um. And it could be anywhere. It's random. And then there are also like culturally specific places too that, you know, like absolutely not, don't even get near it with, with any kind of herbicide or, or any kind of chemical. Um, and so again, the majority of what we have planned is based on harvesting for food and medicine, you know?

Raining White: 23:16

Yeah. I think water quality is really important. You know, Leech Lake has. Three of the top 10 largest lakes in Minnesota. Two of those are in the top four, I believe, Winnie and a Leech. But so we're not, you know, eradication, you know, I think we all know eradication's not, not possible, you know, usually in a noxious weed management. So we don't focus too much on that. But like I said earlier, restoration, you know, how do we. Once we do clear an area, how can we promote that to, to get back to its natural state or more natural state. Um, we don't use pesticides. That's a tribal ordinance. So that's again, a, a sovereignty issue where, you know, before my time, our, our citizens and our people, you know, in our council created a pesticide ordinance that. You know, it didn't straight up ban pesticides, but they wanted more say of what pesticides were going in. And so there is, you know, opportunity to apply for a pesticide permit, for example. But in my knowledge, one has never been given. Um, and you know, we're, we're, we're 800,000 acres within our tribal boundary. Um. And so we're really concerned about new things coming in. So we focus on right away agencies, you know, that may be doing construction or, you know, maintaining their, you know, their assets. Um, so we, we really stress having clean equipment that's coming into the reservation. Um, I know Fond du Lac does a little bit that Kelsey was talking to me about that. And, uh, so really just we have enough to deal with. We don't want more and new things, so, um. You know, that even goes into our, our water. You know, we have a couple watercraft inspectors. We work with the state to, to make sure things from outside the reservation aren't coming in. We're making sure artists, citizens aren't moving things within the reservation. Um, but it's hard, you know, there's, there's major throwaways coming through. There's, there's private work that we don't know about with, you know, dirty excavators and things like that. So it's just. You know, trying to manage our, our little piece of a, you know, little big piece of land for, for future threats and current threats and just, you know, there's, we're not busting down doors and writing tickets or anything, but, you know, we're really conscious of potential of these things expanding and exasperating, and there's only a few of us to do this, so. Mm-hmm. We don't want more. Always

Phil Defoe: 26:02

Capacity. Capacity is always an issue with the tribes. Yeah, I know like in the state agencies, the federal agencies, that they have, uh, five or six teams to do what I do, you know, of people. Uh, that's always, that's always an issue, a hurdle for the tribes.

Jennifer Burington: 26:19

Mm-hmm. And you've talked a little bit, uh, Phil, about avoiding the use of pesticides and how important it is, um, for your tribe's weed management plans. Do you wanna talk a little bit more about that? Like, um, what. What do you, you talked a little bit about, um, trying to plant, both of you have talked about trying to plant the native, um, if you remove something, trying to plant and get the native, um, plants to grow that are natural to the area. Um, but do you wanna talk a little bit more about the reasons why avoiding the use of pesticides, um, with, while people are out foraging and gathering?

Phil Defoe: 26:56

Yeah, I mean, it, it, it stays in the environment for a long time. Um, and there's no guarantees that something didn't drift off into a, a berry patch or, um, you know, they're digging something up for Roots for medicine and, you know, it's within a first inch of soil. Um, I think those are the biggest reasons on why, again, it's all, it's based on food and, uh, living off the land really. Um. Yeah, and Raining was saying like, some of the other things that we do are like, um, I mean the biggest thing is, uh, early detection and, and so that that can compliment not having to use herbicides. If we can get early detection on, we do our surveys, we're making sure that decontaminations are happening with equipment and even within, um, boats and waterways and things like that. Um, I. I think the biggest thing is early detection. If we can get, uh, a lot of, a lot of our effort into early detection, then we may not have to use those things, and that's the goal.

Jennifer Burington: 28:15

Yes. Early detection is very much key to. And all of the options that you have available to, to manage any type of invasive species, whether it be an insect or a plant or disease, like it's, it's amazing to see the, the amount, if just detecting something early before it becomes a huge problem, how much less management. Between hours of pulling weeds and possibly, and not having to use chemical pesticides and herbicides and things like that to, uh, to manage the larger populations and having that biocontrol option, um, that's always nice to have as well, is that you have an insect that can target specifically a plant, um, and help manage that population and bring that population down and help keep it at a low level. So,

Raining White: 29:00

yeah. Um, for Leech Lake, you know. When I kind of got more into a management role in our department, um, I was kind of tasked with this pesticide question. You know, we had, we had different agencies asking, well, you know, why don't you use pesticides? Why, what is, can I get a permit? Can I apply for a permit? Um, for some reason, I, I had to handle all that, which is fine, but, so I did some digging and I, I talked to some other DRM employees that have been there. For quite a while, and the story was that there was some broadcast spraying within, uh, the Forest service and you know, from helicopters I think, or maybe planes, but there was some drifting of it where, you know, as we know that happens. Um, and then our community members started seeing, you know. Their berry patches looking a little rough. They, you know, they reported some deer acting funny or doing strange things. So, you know, the, their, their treaty rights were being directly affected, you know, they can't harvest poisonous, you know, berries covered and poison, you know, essentially, or deer, you know, that, that are acting funny or, or starving. Um, and the Forest Service to my understanding was doing this. For timber to clear out, you know, the understory for timber harvest. And so that's when that was enacted. You know, I think it was the late nineties, maybe early two thousands. And so we've had that sense, and that's kind of in the, the stance of Leech Lake is to avoid pesticides and avoid these chemicals that, you know, the label may say one thing, but you know, what is that doing to all these other, you know, the little. The little details, you know, the, the, the fungi and the insects and the, you know, berry production and the mammals. You know, how long does this stuff stay in our soil? You know, all these questions that, you know, we don't really have the capacity to research. You know, we're not, we're managers, we're not research scientist. Um, and so, you know, it was easier for Leech Lake to just. Get a ban to get a control to, you know, protect our treaty rights. You know, um, 'cause although you can eat garlic mustard, I think blueberries tastes a little bit better. So we'd rather protect those than, you know, worry about, you know, broadcast spraying and some of this drift and, you know, affecting our, our, our constituents, our tribal members. Rights, you know, to, to harvest.'cause every tribal member has that Right. And we don't wanna, we don't want anyone to impede on that.

Jennifer Burington: 31:53

Yeah. You know, uh, there's only so much pesto I can make and I'd rather much rather have some blueberries Yeah. Than have pesto every day. Um, with the garlic mustard. Um, so. Uh, speaking of specific species here, um, like garlic mustard, are there differences in which weeds, um, your tribal authorities manage, um, from those managed by the Minnesota Department of Agriculture?

Phil Defoe: 32:19

Yeah, I can give an example. It's not necessarily a, might not necessarily be on the noxious weed list for the state, but, um, mullein it can be considered a nuisance species. Um, and so that's something that we as the tribe just decided to not. Treat or mess with at all? Uh, we have quite a few, uh, community members that harvest that and turn it into medicine. Um, and they give it away. It's, it's, it's actually used pretty a lot by our community members. Um, so we just don't do anything with it. We keep an eye on, you know, the areas where it's growing, um, and we have it mapped out and things like that, but we pretty much don't do anything with it, um, because they want to be able to have. Uh, good medicine to use. So that's just an example. There's, there's others too. But, um,

Raining White: 33:11

yeah, for Leech Lake, you know, our, our lists are pretty much aligned. Um, but, you know, being sitting on the noxious weed advisory committee, there is, you know, some statewide, you know, there's things that aren't affecting us that we feel like we shouldn't maybe have an opinion about, because, you know. Uh, they're not affecting us directly. And so, you know, I've been advised to kind of understand that it is a statewide committee, but representing Leech Lake on their doesn't maybe always align with, with some other members of that council's, uh, or committees, uh, views on certain species. But yeah, I think we're, you know, we're kind of out for the same goal as to manage our lands for, for our people, whether it's, you know, state. State citizens, which our people are state citizens, but they also have that unique status as tribal members. And so I think just creating a healthy environment is, I think we can all agree on that. So,

Jennifer Burington: 34:18

yeah. And so you talked a little bit reigning about the Noxious weed advisory committee. Um, the MDA also, um, is on that committee and that's what helps create the noxious weed list at least. The state recognized, um, noxious weed list with all the different categories and all of the species on it. Um, so how do your tribal authorities and the MDA, along with other agencies collaborate on noxious weed management and then also with that, what could, uh, be improved on, in, in the future with those collaborations or other, other opportunities?

Raining White: 34:53

Yeah, for, for Leech Lake, you know, there's. I talk about the Forest Service and their spraying and they, you know, we kind of worked that out. Um, and I kind of started my career where there was kind of these shifts in interactions with tribes. You know, whether it was state or federal. They're kind of, I dunno if taking 'em more seriously is the exact phrase, but these relationships were building and so. For me, it's like, oh, well, you know, these were always pretty good. Like the states listening to us, the counties are working with us, the Forest Service. But then I, you know, I have to remember the history, you know, it's not too long ago where the, the Forest Service was spraying our, our, our resources or the county was ignoring our pesticide laws within the reservation. Um, you know, state, you know, there's. A state was writing tribal members tickets for harvesting winow, you know, wild rice. And so it's good to understand that history of, you know, in my lifetime these things were happening and it, it's going in a positive direction now. Um, and you know, I was invited to be on nac, the Noxious Weed Advisory Committee. Um, I sit on the statewide Aquatic Invasive Species Advisory Committee. Um, my boss Kate Heston's on a dozen committees it seems like. Um, but yeah, just, you know, having those conversations and understanding, you know, tribal sovereignty and, you know, what, how can the state interact with that in a positive way? Um, how can counties interact with that in a positive way and just, you know, coming to the table, some of the best relationship buildings is just calling up someone, you know, we're. People in my experience, some people hear tribal and they, you know, they want to tiptoe around it and they, you know, and they, they don't want to talk to us as, you know, managers, you know, they kind of separate us, but, you know, it just give a call, you know, into your, if you're doing work within a reservation or want to work within a reservation, I would just suggest opening that conversation up and being honest and, and, you know, prepared to maybe take some criticism, but it's just. Things are moving in the right direction, but there is still a lot of historical trauma that, you know, people don't forget. And I think it's important not to forget that.

Phil Defoe: 37:24

Yeah. And I was just gonna, I'll add to that trauma part. Um, you know, I think this is a conversation that I had, don't just have with, uh, state agencies, but with the federal agencies too. Anytime I get an opportunity and that's, that, you know. As a people. We've, we've dealt with several layers of trauma, um, and drastic changes within our people in our homelands, but also the land has too. And, um, you know, going from completely old growth forest to decimated nothing but tree stumps for miles and miles and miles. You know that we've learned a few things since then and on how to survive and, um, thrive. Following such a devastating thing to the land. Um, and just like what happens to the land happens to, or what happens to us, happens to the land also. And so my conversation with with agency people is always that, um, you know, if you take the time to sit down with tribal people, you might have, there might be something we can teach you. You know, we've, we've had these compound trauma, um, situations happen. And we've thrived, even thrived within that. And we have some things to talk about and bring to the table that maybe haven't been heard before. Um, and I think, I guess that, that, that's my biggest thing is that, um, you know, if you're willing to come sit down, be patient, um, turn off your mouth and listen a little bit, um. We do have some things to teach, you know, and not every individual tribal individual you're gonna talk to has, um, maybe is even willing to give that input. But, um, just taking the time and, and being willing to, uh, sit down and have a conversation with our tribal councils. Especially get to know who our leaders are. Um, you know, each individual band has a different government. Um. And if you just take the time to understand those leaders, um, you know, they're in those positions for a reason. So,

Jennifer Burington: 39:40

yeah. Well, thank you. I know I've had, I. Many conversations, it feels like going in in the right direction and having these open conversations and being able to talk about all of these things and pass ideas around just like we're doing here, talking about the different ways we manage things and how, um, how we look at things differently. So it's always, it's always good to have, um, that connection and that, um, discussion just to start with. And so that's what one of our reasons for having this podcast here today is to discuss all of these things and to share that and start that conversation so people can have. Um, that with others as well and continue that work. Um,

Raining White: 40:17

the power of conversation, you know, is so important and so strong just to, to understand each other, you know, in general. But, you know, with Minnesota especially, you know, you have two of, uh, 11 tribes of Minnesota in here, and we, we can only represent what we know from our tribes. And so, you know, find out. What treaty territory you're on. You know, find out who your neighbors are as far as tribes and, you know, reach out to them. And, you know, we're all unique. We're all pretty similar in that, you know, the Minnesota Chippewa tribe, we're all Anishinaabe and our Lakota, you know, relatives down here in the south. But I think that celebrating that uniqueness and that these nations are. You know, autonomous and doing their own thing and to understand that really helps expand others, you know, especially in the natural resource world to do better work, I think overall.

Jennifer Burington: 41:19

Yeah. And definitely if we can cooperate and combine together that, uh. Um, the la, the few people from each of the agencies and each of the tribes and stuff working together, you all of a sudden have just two people and then you have 10 people. So having those collaborations definitely helps. And I know you guys talked a little bit or mentioned about, uh, research and stuff like that. There's a lot of, um, research opportunities that we try to have. To, um, to work with different tribes, um, on different things, especially with the, the University of Minnesota with some of their, um, invasive terrestrial plants and puss center, um, that they try to incorporate, incorporate that, and expanding on that relationship as well. Um, just slowly starting out, but expanding and growing and starting to form those relationships. So

Phil Defoe: 42:04

we're, we're getting there and just, uh, just a reminder that, you know. I'm not sure about Leech Lake, but Fond du Lac has an IRB, make sure you hit them up before you decide wanting to do research with us. That's a good point. Okay. Yep. Yes. But also here we are, right? We're having a conversation and this is what, this is what needs to happen.

Jennifer Burington: 42:21

Yep. And exactly. It's the, the more conversations you have, the, the more you learn and the more you know, um, I definitely like having conversations instead of just a, uh, oh, just some words on an email. Mm-hmm. Being able to talk things through and, uh, to have that relationship and that in-person contact. So. Or at least by phone too. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah. Is there anything else you guys would like to add before we wrap up here?

Phil Defoe: 42:45

Anishinaabe phrase., Miigwech for having me come and, um, share a few things and Raining and, uh, everybody in the room.

Raining White: 42:56

Yeah. Miigwech to, to everyone. Um, Anishiinabe phrase. And we'll see you later.

Jennifer Burington: 43:02

All right. Well, thank you Phil and raining. It was great having you on to talk about Tribal weed management today. Uh, it has been a fascinating topic and a great opportunity for us to learn more about your tribal values when it comes to land management. This has been Smarty Plants, a podcast from the Minnesota Department of Agriculture. Our producer is Brittany Raveill, our editor Larry Schumacher, and I have been your host. You can learn more about pests and other invasive species that affect our environment at www.mda.state.mn.us. And while you head to our website, we'll be working on the next episode of Smarty Plants. See you there.