A Boomer and GenXer Walk into a Bar
Wit and wisdom, some smart assery, and a Mother and Daughter questioning “Are we even related?”
A Boomer and GenXer Walk into a Bar
When a Boomer and Gen-Xer Clash Over Sex Worker Rights S:1E:29
A mother-daughter duo tackles one of society's most controversial topics: sex work. From the start, they establish clear boundaries for the conversation, focusing on consensual adult sex work rather than trafficking or exploitation. What unfolds is definitely a generational divide in perspectives.
The Gen X daughter argues passionately that "sex work is legit work" when freely chosen. She makes compelling comparisons between selling one's body for sex and selling it for military service or corporate labor. Meanwhile, her Boomer mother raises thoughtful concerns about morality and potential societal impacts, while acknowledging the practical benefits regulation could bring.
Their conversation examines the Netherlands model, where sex work is legal and regulated. They explore how criminalization in the United States makes sex workers vulnerable to violence, creating a population that becomes "the less missing, the less murdered" because their humanity is often overlooked by society and law enforcement.
As they navigate difficult questions about exploitation, safety, disease prevention, and public perception, both women reveal surprising viewpoints that challenge stereotypes about their respective generations.
This candid, often humorous exchange offers listeners a thoughtful framework for examining their own beliefs about sex work, revealing that the issue is far more nuanced than simple moral judgments or libertarian arguments might suggest. Whatever your perspective, you'll find yourself reconsidering assumptions and appreciating the humanity at the center of this complex debate.
What topics would you like these fearless conversationalists to tackle next? Email your suggestions to boomerandgenexer@gmail.com and join the conversation.
email: boomerandgenxer@gmail.com
welcome everyone to today's show. A boomer and a gen xer walk into a bar, coming to you from the rabbit hole studio where we're going to take you as a listener on an experience of wit and wisdom, smart assery and a mother and daughter questioning. Are we even related? My name is is Bobbi Joy, my co-host is my mom, jane, and we are here to entertain on a very decisive subject today.
Speaker 2:Wow, and I cannot believe we're going to be talking about this subject, because she's already warned me in advance that we are not going to be agreeing on much here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've already cracked open. Uh, one drink. Yeah, here we go.
Speaker 2:I'm not sure if you're the one who needs the drinks or if I do. So we there, we have it all right.
Speaker 1:So what? What's the topic and how did this topic come about?
Speaker 2:well, the topic is sex workers and kind of the controversy surrounding sex workers.
Speaker 1:Maybe I am the one who has been drinking.
Speaker 2:Sex workers. And how did this come up, Dr Domain? Hmm, how did it Look at him? Just look at us like what. I don't want to say anything. I didn't bring it up. I had nothing to do with any of this whatsoever. How'd it come up, Dr Domain?
Speaker 1:You all started it. What we started it, I just threw in the rock and roll piece that was all. Oh yeah, I see.
Speaker 2:Sex, drugs and rock and roll. Okay, All right.
Speaker 1:I was trying to keep it clean board like we're making any money on this that is your dad there.
Speaker 2:All right. So, Bob, what do you want to talk about as it relates to sex workers?
Speaker 1:Well, let's put some parameters down first. So let's let's talk about sex work, and we're not talking about human trafficking. We're not talking about human trafficking. We're not talking about child trafficking. We're talking about legit sex work you're talking about prostitution.
Speaker 2:You're talking about porn, pornography, correct? Not child porn. Oh so dr domain finally finds the button he sure did um.
Speaker 1:So we're talking about pornography and we're not talking about child pornography right, nothing against your will or anything like that, nothing against anybody's will. We're talking about willing participants, adults, you know, people who have chosen this line of work Right, who are engaging in the oldest occupation. Profession Absolutely.
Speaker 2:That's known to man.
Speaker 1:So here's a question for you, a pop quiz. Okay, do you know what United States state has the most sex workers? Nevada, yes.
Speaker 2:Las.
Speaker 1:Vegas? Yes, it's Nevada. It is yeah, sex workers nevada. Yes, las vegas yes, it's nevada.
Speaker 2:It is. Yeah, because you can walk down the street and boom, there they are now, do you know against you?
Speaker 1:do you know what the safest country in the world is for sex workers? Switzerland?
Speaker 2:no, sweden no, does it start with an s? It does not. Okay, what is it?
Speaker 1:the netherlands the red light district. Oh, oh yeah, because over there it's an actual form of work. Yes, yes, it is, and it's not, it's not as regarded lowly regarded as it is other places and a lot of that is is because they are consenting as adults, they choose that line of work. There are safety measures mostly put in place things like that to where you know other parts of the world.
Speaker 2:Not all that happens so in the netherlands, then, to protect these workers, do they I assume that they have a lot of regulations in place associated with you know how they do it, where they do it, how they advertise that sort of thing? Do they have a lot of regulations in the Netherlands? I don't really know. I know they do have the red light district, right, and I do know that, yeah, it's legal. You can kind of walk down there, correct? I would think that there's certain things that you still can't do right there in public, right.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and it is the red light district. You know, because they have the windows and things like that, you don't do it openly in the street. Of course it's not an obscene thing, but they do have it's legal, it's regulated, they have. They have it's legal, it's regulated. They're considered independent workers who have to register and they also pay taxes. Are they unionized? They should be. They pay dues. They should be. And I'm going to tell you my stance right now sex work is legit work across the board if you are a willing participant, sex work is legit work.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, let's talk about that, because there is a lot of controversy surrounding sex work and it stems, you know, from deeply divided perspectives, for sure, and some view it as a form of exploitation primarily on women. Now, it's not that way today. It is both men and women, correct? Not that way today. It is both men and women, correct, correct? And um, other advocates, you know, state that, um, decriminalization of it is kind of a recognition of it's okay well, and let's be honest, consenting adults.
Speaker 1:This is your choice. You're not forced into this. You know, like I said, we're not talking human trafficking, we're not talking anything like that. This is your choice of work. Why would we look down on that? I mean, in a way, we sell our bodies every day, whether it's to join the military, whether it's to go to a corporate job, whether it's to do manual labor. You're selling your body to somebody one way or the other. And if this is how they want to do it, why can't we allow them to do that? Why can't we regulate it? Why can't we put up, you know, safety procedures and laws in place? Because a lot of these sex workers they're called the less missing, the less murdered, the less kidnapped, the because people just don't see them as an upper echelon of real society.
Speaker 2:They don't see them as real people. Yeah, and and so and they make more money than most of us do, so that's probably true. I could tell you I could go out and try it and I wouldn't be. I don't think I could afford eggs at this point.
Speaker 1:Can we not put that image in my head right now?
Speaker 2:I am your daughter, so you mentioned that you know you're selling your body. You're actually selling a service. So you know, I mean, in some cases, yeah, I think you're selling your body. In other cases, I think you're selling a service, uh, that you're able to provide, whether that's manual labor, whether it's psychological labor, whether it's mental labor.
Speaker 1:Either way, it's your body. It is your body, your body, your time, choosing what you want to do.
Speaker 2:You're selling it to somebody to get that paycheck, so to go on the other side of the coin, because I know where you're going to argue, I'm going to argue. The other side has to do with exploitation and oppression. And proponents of this really argue that sex work is inherently exploitive, exploitive, exploitive Particularly for women. And I'm just going to say right here I think women exploit women. I think you know if you're going to get, if you're going to engage in that type of activity or that type of service, you're exploiting yourself. You're not. No one else is doing it to you, no one is forcing you to do it.
Speaker 1:Now we could go into but how is that exploitation though I mean it's, it's literally I, I guess I just see it as work. I mean it's work. You're using your body one way or the other. I don't see it as exploitive.
Speaker 2:If that's what you want to do, well, I don't see it that way I think that the other part of it is it's the first step of manifestation into um systemic violence for a lot of these workers.
Speaker 1:And that's because there's no laws. There's no regulations, there's no protections for these men and women who choose this as what they want to do so.
Speaker 2:do you think in the Netherlands they're more protected? Do you think that there's less murders of these type of workers? Do you think that there's less belittling and disgrace? You see my smile right? Yes, I do.
Speaker 1:You see my smile because you just hit on a point that I actually have pulled up. Yeah, they're more protected over there. They are because and it's been kind of studied and things like that Going back to a podcast that we did before on my serial killer podcast podcast that we did before on my serial killer podcast serial killers target sex workers more often because they don't have protection, they're not regulated, they're not registered, nobody's going to report them missing type of thing it's.
Speaker 1:It's easy pickings, yeah you know, get in my car, I want to pay you for sex. Well, nobody's going to know you're missing, or nobody's going to care that you're missing because you're, you're.
Speaker 2:You're in the lower echelons of the of this country or no one wants to report it, because I, at this point, I know that I'm committing a crime, right? Right in the united states, I'm committing a crime. It's hard for me to go report a crime of even rape, right um assault, murder, kidnapping, that sort of thing, because I'm already a criminal as a prostitute, correct, and so it would be very difficult for me to go ahead and um and rape is a huge one.
Speaker 1:You know, people think that just because you sell sex, that you don't have the right to govern your own body. And a lot of people out there think well, you were at you know generations old argument. You were asking for it, you dress like that, you're a prostitute. What did you expect? Well, you know, I mean Come on, let's get some regulations, let's get some laws, let's get some protections for these people, because they have the right to do it. I think that they have the right to do it and they deserve those protections.
Speaker 2:If they say no, it's no. So in the United States, of course, you know there's a question.
Speaker 2:It's very questionable as to whether there's a lack of true consent, because some of these girls and guys are out there selling their services not only because they feel like they have to to make money, but because they are coerced by other people right by controllers, and that's more human trafficking right and and so a lot of times they're coerced or you know they they lack the the economic ability to get out of that type of work Right, and so they face some hardships and other vulnerabilities and therefore— but a lot of that is because of lack of regulations and laws for these things.
Speaker 1:You know if we—it's kind of like the marijuana debate. So you know the government comes in and says, okay, marijuana is legal. Now we're going to tax it, we're going to regulate it, we're going to regulate it, we're going to make sure there's stores that have it. There is way more protections. You know you're driving out the underground sellers of this, the people who exploit other people to sell marijuana, because now it's legal and we have protections for them. It's the same as sex work. It really is, because once you have those protections, you're going to drive out those human trafficking. You know rings and things like that, because there's not going to be an issue getting the sexual pleasure from someone, because it's not illegal anymore.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know you already touched on it a little bit. You know, the criminalization of sex work, they argue, really kind of pushes sex workers who are assaulted, who are molested, who are raped, who are beat up, who are into the shadows, which does make them more vulnerable to the violences on the street. And that's what I'm talking about, about exploitation, not necessarily, uh, you know, in trafficking, and so whether you're an adult or a child, you can be trafficked Absolutely, so you don't have to be 12 years old to be trafficked.
Speaker 1:No, it doesn't matter what you look like or your race, or your size or your age. Anyone can be trafficked.
Speaker 2:So let me ask me, ask you, this do you so, based on what you're telling me, you don't see this as being harmful to society? Now, maybe it's harmful to society the way that we have it in the united states, but if we had regulations set up to protect these folks and have them provide a service, for it's kind of like supply and demand, right, exactly, exactly it is uh, so, but some would argue that, um, that kind of normalizes sex work, kind of normalizes violence, um, against women particularly, and contributes to sexualization of children I guess I don't see that.
Speaker 1:Like I said, if it's a willing adult participant and there are rules and regulations, there's laws in place, it's going to cut down on all of that. I mean, it's going to pull that out of the pool because now there's a brothel you can drive to. And if you're talking about in this country I think you're talking more about the morals, the moral issue of this country how it's going to drag the morality down because there's a brothel on you know four corners in a town. Listen, they're going to do it one way or the other. Okay, whether it's legal or not, people are going to cheat, people are going to lie, things like that. That is an issue in their relationship. I don't see this. That is an issue in their relationship. I don't see this. I mean honestly, right now, you're going to laugh at me. I would pay to get laid right now because it has been a year and a half, and if I could find a safe and vetted place, I'm telling you what it would really be a lot of stress.
Speaker 2:Check, please, check, please. Can somebody pull the car?
Speaker 1:around it is. I mean, it's not just a marriage ruiner, it's not just a family annihilator type of thing. You know there is an actual legit market out there for people and honestly I think it would help with the incel problem that this country has the what incel incel. You've never heard that I've not heard so it's basically these men that I hate to put it this way. It's these men that live in their mother's basements, that think that women owe them sex, and they're just the women are just dirt bags well, you know, I mean, it could be women.
Speaker 1:No, this is it's primarily men, it's men and it's on the extreme, to where they're violent things like that, because nobody wants to sleep with them, because they're idiots. Well, I mean, if they could go down and pay a price and have a legit sex worker take care of them, maybe they wouldn't be so mad. I don't know, maybe they wouldn't be so angry.
Speaker 2:Well, you had mentioned immortality and um, not immortality I was gonna say this is the vampire diaries no, not the vampire diaries.
Speaker 1:Um morals morals, morality, morality, yes sorry about that.
Speaker 2:Um, and you know the the. The problem is is we have so many immoral people right now on the streets that it's like we can just do anything we want in front of anybody that we want. And so I really do think that the fear is, if I had a brothel on the corner and I got kids walking to school, is there somebody out there on the corner with a sandwich sign on them going, hey, come on in two for one two for one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, rules and regulations, but we know how that works too. Yeah, now you know, I would argue that it could be controlled, and I would argue that it could be regulated just as you think it can.
Speaker 1:Just because there's a church on the corner, I don't see everybody breaking the door down to get in there well, and I mean you see more sexually explicit material on a you know evening show anymore than you do anywhere else. These kids are exposed to it every day. And morals are a personal issue, in my opinion. Your morals, my morals, their morals, they're all different. You know where we draw the line, where we cross the line, things like that, and so I I think that's another show right there I think it is you know our morals and our principles and our standards.
Speaker 2:I think that's a whole, whole other show. It is um, but yeah, I get what you're saying. You know, I gotta be honest with I got mixed feelings about it because I don't like to see anybody selling their bodies, right. I don't like to see anybody using their body in that way. I mean, I feel we were created for a different reason and so I don't like seeing anybody using our bodies in that way.
Speaker 1:I could make that argument, though, for military people who sign up for the military. You, you know your government property, and they'll tell you things like if uncle sam wanted you to have a wife, they'd issued you one so you know when, when you sell your, your body to the united states government for the military, they own you top to bottom, in and out, left and right, your morals, your values, your opinions, everything.
Speaker 2:So I, I guess, I just don't, I don't see it any different I, I think that again, you know now my mind is going to moral standards and principles.
Speaker 2:I mean that's that's I mean that that's what stops each of us from not killing, not, you know, not being deceitful, not participating in thievery, all those things, and so you kind of go. Is that for me? No, is it something I would advocate? No, but I do see your point that if it's regulated and you're selling a service and we can protect people, listen, it's supply and demand. It's out there, whether we like it or not. It's out there. I'm not advocating for it, but I'm saying it's out there, whether we like it or not. Right, it's out there. I'm not advocating for it, but I'm saying it's out there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and you know the human rights part of it. You know whether you're a sex worker or not. You got rights and unfortunately, in the united states, if something happens to a sex worker and we already talked about this it's almost like they don't have any rights. You don't have the right to talk, you don't have rights to anything. You're a low-life, you know prostitute or whatever. Well, what about the guy that came out looking for, or what about the gal that came out looking for him? And so you know, like I said, I do kind of have some mixed feelings about it, see, and I'm all for unionizing sex workers.
Speaker 1:Get them on the paper, get them on the laws, get them on the books. Let's start protecting these people and let's make them no more less than disappeared, no more less than missing, no more less than missing, no more less than beat up, because, honestly, if that's their choice, that's their choice in life and you know good for them.
Speaker 2:I mean, I'd love to make that kind of money do you think that that type of service open and freely advertised, as it is in the sex trafficking of children? Do you think that it's like a hyper sexualization?
Speaker 1:yeah, I mean, it's not that far of a reach bobby?
Speaker 1:no, I, I really don't, because you don't see, I mean I I guess I I don't know, but you know you don't really hear about kids running through the red light district. You don't hear about because of the regulations. Sure, you know? I mean there's a lot of things that we can do to protect them that will not catapult them into mainstream. I mean we've got billboards for sex shops along i-80, you know, I mean the kids, what about that? It's not sex work, but it's a sex shop. What are you going to do about that with your kids? You say, okay, well, maybe you need to have the sex talk a little earlier with them, or you, you know something like that.
Speaker 2:Do you have, since you did bring up Netherlands and it is so prevalent over there as being legalized? Did you take a look at all at their increased risk of sexually transmitted diseases? You know, because sometimes it's hard to get treatment or it's hard to get preventative measures. Is it lower? Is is the violence against sex workers lower so? In the netherlands than it is in the united states.
Speaker 1:I don't know when it comes to stis and stds. It it's becoming a problem everywhere, regardless of whether sex work is legalized or not, and especially, you know, even here in iowa we have a severe outbreak of stds that are being untreated and passed around. It's not just a sex worker problem, it's. It's an everybody problem, you know, and I'm talking even people your age and older who are going into retirement villages and things like that. There are heightened, you know, instances of chlamydia and things like that being passed around do you think that it would?
Speaker 2:it would lower, you know, because right now, as a sex worker, you go in to get help and you're looked down upon, right and you could get regular testing, you could get you know the.
Speaker 1:The public health would step in and say hey, we have monthly testing, we have free condoms, we have you know things like that.
Speaker 2:That would actually help them to stay safe and to not spread those diseases so did you know that new zealand um they've decriminalized work, meaning it's not illegal to engage in sex work? But, it's also not regulated Right, so they don't have anything to protect them. They really don't have.
Speaker 1:And I think that's more dangerous than having it criminalized, just because it's almost kind of like a Wild West thing. You've got no laws, no regulations, no protections and the police aren't going to step in yeah, yeah, well, I know where you stand, yeah unionize them, unionize sex work is real work yeah local union sex 104 or 69, oh man, that was.
Speaker 2:Hey, you got to give me credit for that one, so you know, again, I I guess I don't see it. As you know, even I I think about um, strip joints and stuff. I don't think that anybody is out there exploiting anybody other than themselves. If I choose to get on a poll, I'm exploding, my exploiting myself. And so to blame men, to blame men or other people for exploiting them, I think that's silliness.
Speaker 1:You're doing it to yourself yeah, when we're talking about, like, the willing participants, absolutely yeah, yeah, I mean you're selling yourself one way or the other. You're selling yourself One way or the other. You're selling yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess, from a respect standpoint, from a, I don't want to treat my body that way and I have respect for what I was created as and who I was created after. Because I was created after the perfect king, so were you. I personally would not advocate for it. Now I see your points, don't get me wrong. I see your points because I think that it could bring some control, some lawful safety, some laws that sort of thing, regulations that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:But from my perspective, no, yeah, I guess we disagree on that we agree today. I mean, yeah, I don't know, it's a bit, like I said, been a year and a half is that something I needed to know?
Speaker 2:see you talk about the things that I say listen, you're all in my business, anyways.
Speaker 1:I got a visual on that. I can't get it out of things that I say listen, you're all in my business, anyways, I got a visual on that. I can't get it out of my head. That's because you're old. Here comes mom. You're my mom, you, I have one sister. You've had sex twice, period, that's it.
Speaker 2:Okay, that's right, and don't you forget it. Don't you forget it. Well, bobby, that was good discussion. I mean it really was, and I'm glad. I'm glad you brought it up. Maybe our listeners have some comments related to it and maybe they've had some thoughts associated with it.
Speaker 1:Maybe they've been to the red light district and they can tell us about it.
Speaker 2:Or maybe they're sex workers.
Speaker 2:And they would like to give their point of view, absolutely no judgment, but maybe they're on the other side of the coin too and they're saying, nah, I really am not for advocating for that for sex workers, and we'd like to hear from both sides. And so you know, if you've got some comments or you know anything you'd like to talk to us about, as it relates to that, we're certainly open to hearing it and discussing it, and if you have another topic, we're open to that too. But we are going to get back to moral standards and values.
Speaker 1:I can tell you that one and I'm not soliciting it, so please don't message me.
Speaker 2:Wait a minute. You just solicited yourself. After a year and a half, I'm telling you, but no, thank you Well.
Speaker 2:I think that's all we have for today and we appreciate you joining us here at the Rabbit Hole Studio. Be sure to follow us. We look forward to spending time with you each week. Please like us and if you have some positive feedback for us or you have a topic, we're really interested in your topics. It's not that we're running out of them, because, man, we just keep filling up on topic after topic, but we'd like to hear what you want us to talk about. But drop us a short email at boomerandjenexer at gmailcom. If you have hate mail, not so much. We'll take your constructive criticism, but we're not going to take your hate mail. We just turn that stuff off. So until next week.
Speaker 1:I'm Jane Burt and I'm Bobbi Joy and you're stuck with us. Peace out Later.