A Boomer and GenXer Walk into a Bar
Wit and wisdom, some smart assery, and a Mother and Daughter questioning “Are we even related?”
A Boomer and GenXer Walk into a Bar
Our Criminal Justice System -When Storytelling Beats Evidence, Freedom Loses S:2E:17
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The sunlight was still pouring in when we hit record, and maybe that’s why we went straight for a topic that needs daylight: how the criminal legal system rewards money, speed, and storytelling over facts. We talk candidly about what we see on crime shows versus what happens in real courtrooms—delays that weaken memory, circumstantial evidence presented as certainty, and the way a confident voice or a blue suit can sway a jury more than the record. It’s witty, a little raw, and focused on the real costs hidden behind legal jargon.
From bail that locks people into months of pretrial limbo, to public defenders drowning under impossible caseloads, we map how inequality compounds over time. A missed paycheck becomes a job loss; a missed court date becomes a violation; a probation fee becomes a barrier to housing. We compare standards of proof—beyond a reasonable doubt in criminal trials versus preponderance of evidence in civil cases—and show how narrative gaps get filled with performance, not proof. Appeals and exonerations arrive too late to restore years lost to thin evidence and strong theatrics.
We also share on-the-ground experience from investigations and paralegal work, and we dig into jury selection, media exposure, and the psychology of credibility. The takeaway is simple and hard: facts are emotionless, but people aren’t, and the system often runs on perception. That’s why we argue for a language shift—call it the criminal legal system, not the justice system—so we can see it clearly and fix what’s broken: caseloads, bail practices, timelines, and juror training. If you’re ready to question the story you’re being told, press play, then tell us what reform you’d start with. Subscribe, share with a friend who loves true crime, and leave a review to keep this conversation moving.
email: boomerandgenxer@gmail.com
Welcome everyone to today's show. A boomer and a Gen X are walking to a bar. Coming to you from the Rabbit Run studio, where you, as our listeners, will experience some wit and wisdom, some smart assery, and a mother and a daughter questioning. Are we even related? My name is Jane. My co-host is my daughter, Bobby. And for the next several minutes, we're here to entertain you. Bobby, how are you doing?
SPEAKER_00Well, it's kind of weird. I know listeners don't know, but usually we when we record, it's not daylight out anymore. And right now the sun is still out. It's really weird for me.
SPEAKER_01It's still out for you. We're in a different time zone than you are, so the sun's not out for us. But nevertheless, yeah, it's a little earlier for you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, definitely. I got my uh big bay window open and I can actually see things.
SPEAKER_01Nice. And you know what? I think the sunlight makes a difference in your mood, don't you? I mean, we talked about seasonal effects disorders and you know, just having the humdrums during the winter, but I really do. I love being outside when the sun shining. I don't care what the temperature is.
SPEAKER_00I compare myself to a lizard on a rock because I'll just stand there in the sun and I'll soak it up. Gotcha.
Deciding Today’s Topic
Crime Shows And Courtroom Storytelling
Delays And Due Process Concerns
SPEAKER_01Okay, there's a picture in my head now. Hey, so I was thinking, um, you know, we were talking about topics for this show. I'm always complaining about our judicial system. So I thought, you know what, let's just um let's just tackle that for a minute. We don't have to get into a lot of details on it, but I'm just so sick. You know, we've admitted, Bobby and I both have admitted that we are big crime story watchers. We watch, you know, everybody go through the courts and it's like they tell the story to kind of lead you on. Well, they do the same thing in court, right? They don't, they don't, I mean, it's like, oh, I just get so tired of it. And it kind of turns out to be who's the best storyteller. And so one of the biggest problems with our judicial system, you know, obviously, is the lack of proper case management accounts because they're constantly, you know, failing to provide the information in a timely manner. And I believe that that's part of our right is to have a, you know, have it taken to court in a speedy manner. How many times do you see that happen?
SPEAKER_00Not a lot, not a lot. And yeah, it's a due process right where you know they only have a certain amount of time to bring you before a judge and a certain amount of time to set a court date and things like that.
Paralegal Experience And Context
SPEAKER_01Well, it definitely doesn't boost the public's confidence in the judicial system because we all know in any legal case, the longer you wait, the more muddled everything gets. And you can take down statements all you want, but you know, I was involved in enough cases, not legal cases, but investigatory cases in in my work, your mind really you've got so many going on, and so your mind kind of plays games on you. And even though you've you've documented what you possibly can associated with that investigation or with that case, fact is, is it's hard to remember that stuff.
SPEAKER_00It really is. And you know, even on the end of someone who has been through the legal system, um, on the case. Because you were in prison, right?
SPEAKER_01Weren't you in prison there for a while?
SPEAKER_00That's where that's where I got all my tattoos.
SPEAKER_01Did they ever find that body? Because somebody was asking me about it the other day. No, I'm just kidding.
SPEAKER_00Hey, hey, listen, we had a pig farm, okay? You be quiet.
SPEAKER_01We know what happened. We know what happened.
SPEAKER_00Um yeah, I mean, you know, being on both sides of that that courtroom, and for a few years, I was even a uh paralegal when I lived down in Texas, and so I've actually been on three sides of it, and it it does, it gets muddled, it gets, you know, things kind of go to the wayside, or people stop remembering properly, or you know, it just it honestly, it's just a shit show at this point.
SPEAKER_01So I just want to clarify this so people know that we're giving them true information. You did not go to college and get a degree to be a paralegal, you worked for a law firm, and you did a lot of the paralegal stuff um that was required for that law firm. So I just want to clarify that so somebody doesn't go, she doesn't have a degree in that.
SPEAKER_00She doesn't know, no, I I did not go to law school. Um, I did I did my degree in criminal justice, but I did not go to law school. But yeah, I worked for a uh it was a smaller firm and it did mostly, you know, civil cases and family cases. And so I was kind of thrown into it as the the lawyer's paralegal. And I did a lot of research. I did, you know, a lot of case filings, things like that for him.
Politics In Charging And Rulings
Bail, Class, And Attorney Access
SPEAKER_01So again, you know, public distress is over the time frame that it's taken to bring somebody to court once a case has, you know, been brought up. Um, the other thing is, you know, we could back it on up to how they actually charge somebody because there's a lot of what do I want to say? It's influenced by politics. You've got some defenders and you know, governors and mayors that are saying, hey, we want this case solved. And so there is some stress as it's related to politics and not only how long it takes or who they bring to court, but sometimes on the rulings too.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think we can even take it further back than that in this, you know, the disparities of, you know, let's say you get accused of a crime and they come to your home and they arrest you. Um, you know, if you're in a lower status bracket than you would need to be, you can't make bail, you can't afford an attorney of your choosing. You're given an attorney who usually has another 500 cases they've not even looked at yet. And you know, you you lose your job because you can't make bail, you're not home with your family because you can't make bail. Um, a lot of it is, I think it is more of a, you know, if the more money you have, the more crime you can commit, type of thing.
Circumstantial Evidence And Burden Of Proof
SPEAKER_01Yeah, and and I don't disagree with that because it is hard. Some of these bills are set for cash. And it would be difficult for someone who is in a lower income bracket to come up with any type of cash, or even come up with property to get a lien on to you know, get a bond. That would be really difficult for them to do, and so you know, the system is influenced quite a bit by money. We know that. I mean, come out. You know, I mean, you can buy your way in and out of everything, um, Jeffrey Epstein. So um, I'm just gonna say that obviously there's a lot of influencers, and so it let's talk about uh criminal trials because when we're watching our crime shows, and sometimes we're not just watching crime shows, we're looking at the investigations from those crimes. Because when we watch the shows, unfortunately, Bobby and I want to go back and we want to look at what the crime was, we want to look at who was involved, how did they, how did they get a confession? Did they get a confession? What was, you know, what were their items that they found, you know, at the at the crime scene, how did they get to this point? And so there is a difference, obviously, from a criminal trial and a civil trial, right? And so criminal convictions, you know, prosecutor must prove every element of the crime. It's not up to the party that's being charged, it's up to the prosecutor to prove every element of the crime beyond a reasonable doubt to secure a guilty verdict. Now, here's what the shit show is, and I hate using that term, but that's exactly what it is, is if you've ever watched somebody in court, they sometimes don't have the evidence, right? So what they do is they they bring up, you know, um circumstantial evidence. They don't have the DNA, or they don't have the weapon, or they don't have a witness, or they don't have these things. And so they bring up circumstantial evidence for these cases. In a criminal trial, the the jury is supposed to, or excuse me, let me back up, the prosecutor is supposed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that that crime has been that has happened, you know, for a conviction. And it's unfortunate because what happens is you get your a jury of your peers, we'll go into that in just a minute, but you know, they have to prove these things. But what happens is you hear a lot of prosecutors go, well, you know what I think happened. You know, I think this happened. And, you know, we don't have the gun, but we really feel that he did this with it, or she did this with it. And so what they do is they end up they end up writing a story for the jurors. I mean, don't you think that's true?
SPEAKER_00I do. I do. I think a lot, I think a lot of it is storytelling and just being able to weave a story that's believable.
SPEAKER_01Right. And so who's the best storyteller? Who's using the most descriptive words? Who's using the most convincing voice? Who comes across that the jury members actually like? Because if they don't like the attorney and they don't like the way the attorney looks, you might be screwed, you know, right? Or they don't like the way that uh the person who's being accused looks, you might be screwed. Now, you know, maybe I wore the wrong color today. I don't know. Why is that a factor? Um, but psychologically, psychologically it is.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and did you know that the color that they tell defendants to wear in court that portrays truthfulness and honesty? Do you know what color that is?
Jury Bias And The Psychology Of Presentation
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna say blue. It is, it's blue. Is it it is? I thought so. Um, because you see, you know, a lot of attorneys will wear, you know, dark suits or whatever, they'll wear wear black or or gray, but I've noticed that the defendants um are wearing blue. Yeah. And is that male or female? Is that male or female?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, male or female, and they're told to. I mean, that's that's one of the first things they tell them, you know, when they tell them how to dress for court is do you have something blue? Do you have something blue to wear?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. And so proof beyond a reasonable doubt, unfortunately, I don't believe is happening in our our court system. I think, again, there's a lot of politics that comes into play. I think that, you know, it is a storytelling type thing. And unfortunately, you're deciding someone's life here. You know, you're not just looking at probability, you're looking at proof beyond a reasonable doubt, beyond a shadow of a doubt. And when they don't prove that, it just blows my mind when I see these jurors come back and go, well, they're guilty. You know, I didn't like the way he said that or the way he looked or the fact that he chuckled. I don't care. Either you have the proof or you don't.
SPEAKER_00Two of the big things I want to bring up, you know, number one, like I said, the disparity of the lower income, um, you know, the mentally ill, the lower income, uh, drug users, they have a real disparity in court because they don't have the resources or time or things like that in order to make a good case, in order to, you know, actually be a part of their defense in order to not go to jail. And you know, bail is a big thing, but you have to think when they drag these court cases out, this person couldn't make bail in the first place. Now you've dragged this court case out for two years, they've lost custody of their children, they've lost their home, they've lost their job. All of if they do have savings, all of that's gone, you know, and they could still come out to be not guilty in the end, and they have lost their entire lives because they couldn't afford to make that$400 cash bail.
Inequality Compounds Over Time
SPEAKER_01And I was just gonna say that, you know, the the fact is, is a lot of times you're holding innocent people this long, you're not holding some murderer, and the other problem with that is outside of the ju judicial system on the criminal side, you've got law enforcement who said, Oh, we got our person, we got our person, and they stop looking, and they stop trying, they stop the investigation, case closed, hey, it's gone to court, we're gonna deal with it that way, yeah. And so even though in US Constitution says that we are, you know, we have a due pro there's a due process clause in it, right? That requires um certain standards for criminal cases, it's so unfortunate today that we have to rely on did, you know, did they have enough money for a really good attorney? And how was that attorney's voice? And what color were they wearing? And you know, and and then I I want to talk a little bit about where you're getting your jurors. Now let's let's face it, be honest with you, you can buy your way out of being on a jury, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
Criminal Vs Civil Standards Explained
SPEAKER_01You can buy your way out of that pretty easily. Uh, if you have a good enough excuse, you can get out of it anyway. I I am the boomer of this whole thing, and I have only been called to, and I vote always, and I have only been called for jury duty once, and then they said, Oh, we don't need you. So I I haven't even had the opportunity to be on a jury. Now they probably don't want me, you know, because I'm pretty opinionated, and so I'd probably say what I wanted to say. But how in the world do you find a jury of your peers that are not associated that don't have the don't have the knowledge? Yeah, that don't have the knowledge uh of the case itself. Oh, we're gonna move them to a different county. Hello, you know, I know what's going on over in the UK, in Germany, whatever. I don't that you're gonna move them to a different county, it just seems preposterous to me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and you know, way back when, when all we had was newspapers, you know, that could have worked because maybe you didn't see a newspaper three counties over, you know, maybe you didn't hear about that. But a jury of your peers, I think, is an oxymoron, even when when it comes to like um, you know, class or race, you you're hard pressed to find a jury of your peers. Yeah, you really are, yeah. And so you bring these people in, and of course, you know, there's jury selection, and they have so many vetoes for the defense and so many vetoes for the prosecution. And so by the time you actually get into it, you know, they've pretty much honed who they want on that jury, and for certain reasons.
SPEAKER_01And and what's really funny too is that even if you pick a juror, have you ever had somebody that maybe you kind of know but kind of don't know real? They're not like close friends, but you know of them. And they go, I'm on this criminal case juror, you know, jury this month. And you just want to go, you're one of the biggest liars I've ever met. How in the world did you get picked for jury duty? It certainly wasn't some psychological test that you had to pass or some intelligence test.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, or you go, oh, bless that person that's going on trial because the the they're not gonna make it. Right.
Exonerations, Appeals, And Harm
SPEAKER_01They're not gonna make it. And so for a criminal case, you know, criminal cases are held to the highest standard, and and it's the it's supposed to have the most stringent burden of proof in the law, reflecting the seriousness of the consequences, because it's either imprisonment or it could be the death penalty for the crime that they're being con, you know, being accused of. Uh, but that doesn't mean that it has to be proof beyond all possible doubt, but rather a doubt based on reason and common sense that would make a reasonable person hesitate to act in important matters. So if you got something that you heard on a on a jury, let's say you're a juror, and you hear something that makes you go, what? And it makes a reasonable person, reasonable person hesitate, that right there should tell you I can't send somebody to prison. I can't vote guilty on that. You know, there's just so much public outcry when an when an incident occurs that people want justice by God. We know this is him. We the whole town hates this guy. But the fact of the matter is you absolutely need to pay attention to, you know, the information, not just the storytelling.
Facts Over Feelings
Renaming The System And Closing
SPEAKER_00And moving on from that, you know, I had talked a little bit about bail and and the inequalities of you know the less wealthy people. Let's talk about when they do get convicted of something. And let's say, you know, they don't go to jail, but they have to do probation or they have to do house arrest, things like that. That costs them a lot of money. That's not picked up by the state, that's not covered by any kind of like uh a criminal bank account that the state holds. Uh, you know, people come out and even for you know, some of the smaller, you know, misdemeanors or some of the lesser felonies, which I could get into a whole podcast about how half of that crap is wrong for what they're doing to people. I agree. But let's say, let's say somebody goes in for a drug conviction. Okay, let's say in the state of Iowa, somebody has some marijuana on them and they're convicted because Iowa is a back ass state. And let's say that they go in and they say, okay, well, you have to do probation for two years and you have to submit to UAs, you know, P tests to make sure that you're staying off of drugs. And on top of that, you also have to go to counseling and you have to go to counseling once a week. Okay, number one, now you have this criminal charge on your record. Okay, even if it's a minor felony, it try to find a job as a felon. Okay. Try to find housing as a felon. It is damn near impossible. On top of that, now you need time off once a week because you have to go to counseling. And guess what? Once a month, you have to go in and submit a UA to your probation officer and check in with them, which they could take all day with that. And they could say, Hey, come on to Tuesday. You get there on a Tuesday and they say, Well, we don't have time now. You have to come back Wednesday. Okay, that's another day off that you can't go to work. And on probation, I know it averages, I want to say it's right around$500 a month for a smaller felony, you know, like a drug felony. You have to pay$500 a month to be on probation out of your own pocket. And you're having a hard enough time trying to find a job that will work around what you have to do. You're having a hard time finding a new place to live because you lost your place to live because you were in jail and you lost your other job. Right. You know, it just it stacks upon stacks upon stacks of these things. And you know, you're right. The more money you have, the more you can do because you immediately bail yourself out, you pay off your fines, you get your license back faster. You don't have to have SR22 insurance for two years because guess what? You paid off your fines, you paid off your probation, you're you're done within six months. And no, it's like nothing ever happened.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And so, you know, we the criminal cases really blow my mind because I I think that it's just our system is so broken for not only that reason, but you know, some of the crimes that these people go to jail for, I just kind of want to go, you know, my neighbor does worse than that. Right. And, you know, I mean, he's got a good job. He's a CEO of some, you know, whatever. But you just kind of go, are we focused on the right things here? And then the time period, and then the storytelling, and the money involved. And now civil cases are a little bit different. There's a contrast in civil cases, right? So a civil case, um, that standard is often uh preponderance of evidence, meaning the evidence shows the claim is more likely than not true. So you could have more than 50%. Yeah, more than 50% probability. And so that's preponderance of evidence. Now that's that's not in a in a you know real crime that of passion or you know, murder or you know, something like that. It's not for that. So, but you still have to convince a judge and uh uh and sometimes a jury that the evidence carries more weight than the opposing side, uh, and but it just has to tip slightly. And so that's that's the biggest uh thing there. And then you've got um preponderance of evidence, and preponderance of evidence is um whether or not, you know, evidence of past acts maybe that they have like, you know, Bobby has you know stolen from somebody else's garage, so she had to have stolen this car or whatever. Um, so you have evidence of past acts or conduct, or maybe some character traits that you might have, right? And so that that kind of gets into preponderance of evidence. So, you know, the preponderance of evidence standard applies in most civil law suits, you know, requiring them to prove their claim. But that's as screwed up as any other, you know, part of the system. And so as y'all are out there listening to these crime shows, and we all do it, you know. I mean, I'll be the first one that within, you know, Dr. Domain will admit to this within the first five minutes. I'll say, Oh, they were involved. Oh, that that, you know, because some evidence is coming forward, but it still has to be proved. By the time they're all done, there are so many on these crime shows that I just think, seriously, you think you proved that, or were you just a really good storyteller?
SPEAKER_00Right. And a lot of them do come back, you know, as exonerations. Um, when they say, Oh, well, you know, we just have this circumstantial evidence, we don't have a bunch of evidence, and they get convicted, and then you know, 10, 15 years later, they'd they get exonerated for it. Okay, or hey, I'm glad that you're out of prison, but now your life is ruined. Yeah, right.
SPEAKER_01Your life isn't the same, or if they appeal it, you know, you're appealing it, right? And uh, you know, you get eight years down the road, they go, Well, we're going to appellate court now, and they're gonna appeal this case. And oh, by the way, we found out that some evidence wasn't brought forward in the first case. Eight years later, you know, after we've damaged your entire life, your entire persona, who you are in the society, your will to live, you know, we've damaged all of that just because we had some circumstantial evidence. And so I would just ask, as you, you know, everybody listens to crime stories either on podcasts or you watch TV or they're in your public. Listen to all the information and you know, just quit letting people tell you what uh the decision should be. It's kind of like politics. Don't tell me how to think. You know, show me the facts. And when I used to do investigations for our company for events that we had, I always told my my guys who worked for me as investigators, I said, listen, the facts never lie, and the facts are emotionless. You know, you ought to be able to take your mother to court uh with the facts if that's the case. I don't need your emotions in anything, and I don't care what it is. If you're trying to prove, have a burden of proof on whether it's a civil case or a criminal case, the facts have no emotions. Absolutely none. And it's so hard for people to take their emotions out of it, especially a juror.
SPEAKER_00So yeah, I don't know, it's a big thing.
SPEAKER_01I don't know what the answer is here. I just ask people to consider that. Oh, God bless you, Dr. Domain. He just sneezed into the microphone. I was trying not to. Oh, it's okay. He just wanted in this conversation. My nose and the eardrum. So I think that's probably all we have on this topic, Bobby. Hopefully, we gave our listeners some food for thought.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I will ask everybody, let's stop calling it the justice system because a justice system implies that families will be made whole by the rendering of justice. And that has never once not happened that I've ever seen in my life. So let's start calling it the criminal legal system or the pay-to-play system. That's my favorite.
SPEAKER_01Pay to play. If you go Pascal, you can pick up get up your uh gain$200 and get your get out of jail free card.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And I think that that is all that we have for today. But hey, we appreciate you guys joining us on a at the Rabbit Run studio. So be sure to follow us on Facebook. And that page is a Boomer and a Gen Xer walk into a bar, the official podcast, because we look forward to spending time with you each and every week. Like us there, like us on your favorite uh listening app. And if you have positive feedback, or if there's a topic or a question you want us to talk about, drop us an email at boomerandgenxer at gmail.com. And if you have hate mail, well, I guess you can uh file that with my uh public defender, and I'll never see it.
SPEAKER_01Hey, we want people to share us too. Please, please, please. That's how our information gets out and why we were in we are in multiple countries and multiple cities. Please share on all of your social networking platforms. We really appreciate it.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely. And until next week, I'm Bobby Joy. And I'm Jane Burt. And you're here stuck with us. Peace out. Later.