BeTempered
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 59 Part 1 – Battling Insecurity, Answering God’s Call, and Moving to One of the World’s Most Dangerous Places
What happens when following your faith costs everything? In this powerful episode of the BeTempered podcast, Pastor Jeff Travis joins hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr for a deeply personal and inspiring conversation that traces his extraordinary journey—from childhood struggles in suburban Detroit to anti-trafficking work along the Thailand-Myanmar border.
As a young boy, Jeff battled severe reading difficulties and depression, feeling like he didn’t belong in traditional academic settings. Competitive swimming became his outlet, but it wasn’t until college that everything changed. A miraculous healing experience not only restored his ability to read but ignited a spiritual awakening that would alter the course of his life.
During the conversation, Jeff opens up about the lingering effects of his early coping mechanisms—avoiding failure, hiding insecurities, and performing to gain approval—and how those patterns followed him into adulthood, ministry, and marriage. With honesty and humility, he recounts the gradual unraveling of those habits as he learned to listen more deeply to God’s call.
That call would take Jeff and his wife Elizabeth from Michigan to small-town Ohio, and eventually, in 2022, to one of the world’s most dangerous regions. Now partnering with Life Impact International through New Life Commission, they work on the Thailand-Myanmar border, offering hope and healing to displaced families and survivors of human trafficking. Jeff describes this leap of faith not as a heroic act, but as a daily choice to trust, to serve, and to go where the need is greatest—even when the road is uncertain.
What makes this episode especially moving is Jeff’s willingness to share the messy, often painful parts of his journey—his battle with self-doubt, the grief of miscarriage, marital challenges, and the weight of leadership. His mix of vulnerability and humor makes his story both accessible and deeply resonant for anyone wrestling with purpose, identity, or fear of the unknown.
Whether you’re navigating a personal crossroads, feeling called to something outside your comfort zone, or simply seeking a story of authentic, faith-driven courage, Jeff’s testimony will challenge and encourage you. His conversation with Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr on the BeTempered podcast is a powerful reminder that sometimes the greatest transformation happens when we stop playing it safe and start listening to that still, small voice—even if it leads to places we never imagined.
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my dad, Dan. He owns Catron's Glass.
Speaker 2:Thanks, allie. Things like doors and windows go into making a house, but when it's your home you expect more like the great service and selection you'll get from Catron's Glass Final replacement. Windows from Catron's come with a lifetime warranty, including accidental glass breakage replacement. Also ask for custom shower doors and many other products and services. Call 962-1636. Locally owned, with local employees for nearly 30 years. Kitchen's best. The clear choice.
Speaker 3:Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world. Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience. We're your hosts, dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.
Speaker 4:This is Be Tempered. Jesus, we thank you so much for your love, mercy and grace. Thank you for your presence in this place. Holy Spirit, just have your way in our words, in our time, anoint this conversation that not only would it be uplifting and life-giving to each one of us here, but to everyone you want to share it with, to everyone you want to talk to, to everyone you want to touch. So, jesus, I just thank you. We lay this podcast down, we lay our lives, we lay down just everything we have and we just ask that you have your way here. Thank you for all the technical details and everything that has to get recorded and done just goes so smoothly and you just guide our conversations through peace, and we love you and we're so grateful in your holy, precious name, amen, amen.
Speaker 3:Amen.
Speaker 4:That wasn't that hard. So it was funny. I was actually at a prayer thing last night and they did requests and you know whatever, and so I got a ton of travel coming up with my kids and chaos and stuff. And so I asked and then there was this kid there. I say kid, he's probably like 25, but there's a kid and he was an intern when I worked here and so the director Keith was like hey, eli, you pray for him? And I was like better, be good. And he's like okay, no pressure, oh, that's awesome.
Speaker 3:Well, what's up everybody. Welcome to the be tempered podcast episode number 59, 59. Today's guest is someone who didn't just preach faith. He lived it with boldness. He lives it with boldness and sacrifice. Pastor Jeff Travis, along with his wife Elizabeth, helped lead and grow the Eaton campus of the Community of Faith Church starting in 2014. Pouring into their local Ohio community which we'll find was new to them, with a passion and connection for discipleship and spiritual growth. But their journey didn't stop there. In 2022, the Travis family took a step of radical obedience. They left behind comfort, security and familiarity in the US and moved to one of the most dangerous regions in the world for human trafficking the Thailand-Mainmar border. Did I say that right? Yeah, that's good. There they're partnered with Life Impact International and now lead efforts through New Life Commission, bringing hope, healing and the love of Jesus and displaced families, at-risk children and survivors of exploitation. This isn't just a story of global missions. It's a story of trust saying yes when the call costs everything. Jeff, wow, it's an honor to have you here, man.
Speaker 4:Well, now I feel like it's an honor. I feel like I just need you to intro every morning of my life and I'm like oh this is amazing. Just set the alarm to that right. Can I have that just recorded? I'll wake up. I can do it, you know, I'm good enough, smart enough and doggone it. People like me, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know, I try my best. I did all that research on the internet and searched your name and then it just spit that out.
Speaker 4:Wow, that's amazing. You know, if you Google my face, the only picture comes up. I have a pink Mohawk type thing going on, really. Yeah, I was a youth pastor and I lost about my youth group and I had to dye my hair and it was neon pink for a whole week of camp, and so you didn't stick with it. No, oddly enough, I didn't.
Speaker 4:What was really funny was the person I at the time I was working at a really conservative church shirt tie 90% of the people are old and I got it died on a Friday, but that that Sunday I had to lead worship and so before church the pastor had to get up and like explain, you know, like, by the way, he's not off his rocker, it's for the youth, it's for the kids, you know, like he got them 25 to go to camp and now he has pink hair, you know but that's what happens when you lose a bet it's, it's yeah, I blame my wife, because at first I was just gonna have to wear pink shirts all week and she's like no, get the hair.
Speaker 3:Thanks, honey well, man, we appreciate you making the trek all the way from thailand just yeah, you know it's worth it.
Speaker 4:We took, uh, 35 hours of travel and it was really great. Spent nine hours in Seoul, korea, which was really fun with three little kids. Yeah, but it was awesome. And so, yeah, no, I love you, but this is the blessed bonus.
Speaker 3:That's right, man. Yesterday we spent a little time together. Got to hear your story because you know we knew each other. We were in Rotary together and been involved in different community events throughout the past. What nine, ten years that you were here?
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 3:In the area, but I didn't know your story and boy, you had me thinking all day yesterday.
Speaker 4:I kind of felt bad. I was like, oh boy, you had me thinking all day yesterday. I kind of felt bad. I was like, oh man, this is like a fire, cause you know how do you condense a it's hard to condense a life. And then, uh, I've had a unique opportunities, we'll say, to uh just have some uh interesting highlights, and just things go on, cause you, we all think our story is normal, cause it's all we know, you know. And then, because of my position as pastor and different things, I've gotten to hear other people's stories and so you kind of see where what's what's norm, what's not norm, and so there's a couple of things in my story, in my life and in our journey that just kind of, I guess, stray from common, I guess you could say a couple a couple.
Speaker 4:It's pretty powerful a couple of decades.
Speaker 3:And you call it opportunities. I would call it a calling.
Speaker 4:Well, yeah, I, I think so I don't. I don't know any other. You know it's. It's kind of how you're programmed you don't know what else to do. You don't know what else to to be. Eventually, you just, you just have to, you follow the best you can and but yeah, no, it's, it's a calling I, I, I don't know what else I do. I think we were talking one time um Elizabeth. My wife and I were just hashing. It was one of the hard days and we're, you know like, well, shoot, let's quit. Like what else are we going to do? And yeah, I really suck at everything else. Like I don't know what I would do. Like she's a nurse, she has like a degree, you know, she has education. I can talk, like you know, but I know how to minister and somebody's like you could do real estate. I'm like, yeah, it sounds like a lot of paperwork though, you know like all right, man.
Speaker 3:Well, people want to hear this story. So how we start every podcast just like we did yesterday when you and I were talking is start from childhood, start from the beginning, and let's hear what life was like for you growing up in the stinky state of Michigan.
Speaker 4:Well, it was a warm summer night, may 29th 1982, at four 30 in the morning. I was born 10 pounds, six ounces, 23 inches long, my poor mother. And then I got difficult. No, I, I grew up in a Northern suburb of Detroit, royal Oak, michigan, and if you know anything about Royal Oak now I like to say we, we, we lived there before. It was cool Cause now it's very trendy. My parents bought their house for like $36,000. And now every street on the house has been torn down, rebuilt, and there are hundreds of thousands. It's ridiculous, but they still live there since 1980. And they bought the house, and so it's crazy. My dad was an engineer. My mom was a nurse.
Speaker 4:We grew up middle, lower middle class, kind of just pretty chill, pretty average. I loved, I love my neighborhood. I say I grew up and leave it to be, because I don't know how to describe it Like I remember having block parties. Once a year We'd shut down the street you know suburb neighborhood and we'd have a volleyball net across the road and we'd have a barbecue in the middle of the road and it was the one time a year I was allowed to drive in the street with my bike. So I thought that was the coolest. Um, but it was. It was very uh, it was very chill, it was very wholesome. From what I knew, you know, I mean it was all I knew, uh, but it was. It was a nice, tight little community. I grew up.
Speaker 4:We like to go camping, we like to go, we travel up North Michigan, northern Michigan's beautiful lake house cottage, that kind of thing. My grandparents, I have one older brother. He's five years older than me. He is defined as one of the nicest humans on the planet, which is really fun, because my whole life in elementary, because we went to the same schools, you know. But I just came five years later and so I would get teachers and they're like, oh, you're craig travis's brother, he was the nicest boy. And then they just kind of look at me like this is not going to be the same, and I'm like, yeah, thanks, okay, you know, um, and, and so when I was two just, uh, random things I spent my second birthday in the hospital.
Speaker 4:I was diagnosed I don't know how that works with asthma, and so we used to camp all the time, and so not long after that my parents had to go from tent camping to. We bought a pop-up Coleman 1986 with the Astro minivan. It was great, I was telling him yesterday we actually still camped in that same Coleman. I took my kids in that same Coleman, um, camping, although it was kind of rough, we, we, literally it was like the hottest summer ever here. So we took like a window unit and just like stuck it against the wall from the outside to look back. I got like two by fours, jimmy rigged, you know, just to try and not die. Um, but, uh, but I grew up just camping and everything.
Speaker 4:When I was, uh, when I was in about second grade, second grade going to school, elementary school life, uh, they started noticing some issues. So I was diagnosed learning disabled in reading and spelling. Now, nobody, this is, this is the eighties. I don't think if you go now they have very different skillsets, but I don't think we had a lot of skills sets then to explain things, to understand things, to figure things out. I and nobody really talked to me. You know, I mean I'm coming out of the generation where, like my parents, were seen, not heard. You know, I can remember my dad telling stories about being kid. You go somewhere, like they go visit someone, and he and his sisters would literally just sit on the couch and be quiet and the grownups would talk and the grownups would go do the thing and they literally just had to sit there and be like that was life, and so I don't think they knew how to explain to a seven year old. Hey, we don't know why you can't read, but I can remember I'm sitting next to this kid in class one day I think this is in third grade now and his name is Tim Kirkman and I remember looking and we had spelling words and I just remember so clearly like he had violin and I had like cat and I was like, well, that's not the same, like I was going to like something's different.
Speaker 4:But I got pulled out of recess for a whole season in second grade, which was, you know, not fun, because I was the ADHD kid who had too much energy to know what to do with, and I would sit in a room alone with this teacher who was working on their like special ed degree and it really pushed me in a really bad way because I I didn't have the skills and nobody seemed to around me have the skills to tell me what was happening and why. Because I wasn't I wasn't labeled dyslexic, you know, because a lot of times I was told like you see the letters backward. No, I see, I see what, you see, it's just not working, something's not connecting and so, um, I actually started to assume it was my fault. I started to assume I was stupid and a failure. I started to assume all these things and nobody, nobody in my life, was able to give me an outlet. That was different. So I started really struggling with depression and it's like second grade, which I look back now and I'm like, geez, that's terrible, like I mean that's.
Speaker 4:I'm seven years old and I was at a. I was at a weekend retreat with church and I talked to a guy, a friend of mine. We're just walking through the woods and I actually started talking to him. Hey, how would you kill yourself, you know? And he, he's like eight, so obviously he had this emotional maturity and wisdom about him that it just freaked him out and he went and told the counselor, and so then everybody's having the conversations with you know what's going on, what's wrong, you know, and I don't know how to, how to feel. I just don't like myself, I don't like life. I just assume I'm having these feelings Like I assume I'm failing, I'm wrong and I'm stupid and this is dumb. And I wasn't dumb Like I was clever, I was smart, I had other skill sets. I was good at math, I could do a lot of things, I was a great chameleon.
Speaker 4:But when it came to this thing of reading and this thing of spelling, I mean, I was, I was lost and it didn't make any sense. And we did the hooked on phonics, we did Sylvan learning center. Um, they had me in special classes. I mean, I remember I spent like I think half a third grade in a room with like five other kids and you know, we just tried to do different things and and nobody could tell me and I didn't know what was working. So in my you know little kid brain, I'm looking around. I see everyone in my class. They're in the same teacher, they're in the same room, they're getting the same education and they're getting it and I'm not. So obviously I'm the problem, you know.
Speaker 4:And so I started really struggling. I I can remember by third grade. I still remember this night where I'm sitting in my room and I'm just open like notepad, spiral notebook and I'm just writing feelings, so to speak, and just everything about I hate myself. Life's better without me. Like it was it wasn't like a suicide note, but like it was just I was vomiting a lot of hurt and I didn't know how to deal with it and I really just assumed that I was causing problems for my parents. I'm causing problems for everybody. It would just be easier if I'm gone. And that's my little third grade brain.
Speaker 4:And my mom came in and uh, cause it was odd for me to be like in my room alone, quiet for so long, and uh, she's kind of looked over my shoulder, she sees what I'm writing and I'm crying and I'm like I don't know what to do. And so she started getting me some counseling and it was like, okay, we need, we need to get some help, and I was. I was telling him yesterday. Counseling didn't go well. At first.
Speaker 4:I had a really bad experience with a counselor who was I'll just say he was inappropriate, which was odd for like an eight year old kid, things that I remember him talking about a had nothing to do with me or reading. They were like I don't know if he was trying to relate with me, but like he would bring up sexual things. He would bring up, perverted, like that's all I remember from my time with him and I'm like that, like going back now like that's weird and wrong and I don't get it. But, um, so we ended up, uh, because he he also did some other things that didn't go well and miss some appointments and had some problems, and so we, we switched and I got a new therapist and I was in this, just this cycle of where I'd kind of be okay and then summer would happen oh, thank God it's summer, you know, and I'm living for the summer but then every fall school starts and I would just fall into the slump and I just hated life and everything about it.
Speaker 4:I also, like I said, I was asthmatic when I'm a kid, so it was another one of those areas where I felt different, because I'm going to gym class or something would happen and I would start to wheeze and then I would have to go to the office and they had the sick chair in the office right at the end of the counter, and I'd have to sit in the sick chair and they'd have to bring me my inhaler and I, you know, I have to sit there until I was okay and then I go back to class, so I'm not running or participating.
Speaker 3:I did have a doctor who said you know, start swimming, which I'm like that's right, I can't breathe, so let's put me under water.
Speaker 4:You know like, yeah, sure, during the summer what'd you do for fun as a kid that you look forward to? Well, I had a great neighborhood, like next door to me was Casey, across the street was Wyatt, and then there was Marissa and Megan, arnie and Zach, like there was just kids in the neighborhood and so I mean we just did everything, we just played. I mean it's as funny as it sounds Like I had a place, a swing set and monkey bars in my backyard and a teeter-totter. We did. We liked to go up north. My grandparents had a cottage on a lake, so like the Memorial Days, the labor days, that kind of thing we're doing that.
Speaker 4:My parents like to do camping, so we're, we're doing, we're doing the camping thing a lot. We didn't spend a lot, so my dad was pretty fiscally conservative, so we would save and then do like a vacay and that was a thing, and so, like maybe once every few years we'd take a big trip Like North Carolina one year where we went when I was nine we did like a two-week road trip out west and that was really fun. We caravaned with, uh, one of my uncles and their cousins and we stayed, we motel sixed it, you know across across the whole place and and that was great, um, but that's kind of. You know, we lived in this astro minivan and that was that was our thing and it was a stick shift, which is so funny to me to think about it.
Speaker 3:I didn't even know. Astros had a stick.
Speaker 4:Well, in 86, they did. It was pretty great. Uh, the bench seats and everything, um. But I went through this thing and I I started swimming and that seemed okay and that was kind of a little bit of identity.
Speaker 4:We, uh, we grew up going to a first Presbyterian church of Royal Oak and church was fun, it was. It was just fun in the sense that like I had friends there but uh, I didn't learn anything. I mean, as silly as it sounds, I mean it was just be quiet, be good behave. We got in trouble for messing around in the choir loft behind the pastor guy. Um, cause I'm in choir and you just like sit kids up front and expect us to be quiet, like it's just not possible. Um, I, literally I had a friend and I don't know if people are still around, but I remember having a friend who we were doing prayer and his name was Nathan and it's like third grade and I think the teacher almost choked him out because he literally we were supposed to be quiet and praying and he just started walking around with his eyes closed, bumping into everyone during the prayer and like he was grabbed and taken outside by an exasperated guy. Like I feel really bad now looking back, but we used, I just remember, you know, we'd go to the coffee station and put like 12 packs of sugar in one cup of coffee down it and then go to Sunday school and I'm like those people have mansions in heaven for just putting up with us. But by the time, I mean, it sounds really dumb.
Speaker 4:By the time we go into communicants class, middle school, you know, we become a member of the church. You know, memorize the books of the Bible, memorize the apostle, okay, cool, so they the day we're getting inducted I don't know how else you would say it we go in front of the whole church and the pastor, you know, I'm going to ask you this. You say this, I'm going to ask you this. You say this, I'm gonna ask you this. You say cool, and then he like throws a ringer question at us. You know really tough theological stuff at the very. He goes who is your Lord and savior? Uh, we didn't rehearse that one. Like, like it was so funny Cause. We're like, uh, and the same kid who wandered and bumped, he goes Jesus. And we're like, yeah, that guy. You know. Hey, we're in church, that's the answer. Right, you know, and everyone laughed. But I'm like, thinking back, I'm like, wow, we were dumb, we didn't get it.
Speaker 4:But when I was seven, around that same time I had an aunt who took me to a power team meeting and she was awesome. I mean I thought it was so cool. They're breaking handcuffs, they're blowing up hot water bottles, breaking bricks. God is stronger than me. You're. You're like I'm seven. I'm like, please, yeah.
Speaker 4:But I went home and I asked Jesus to come into my heart with my mom. That was the first time I'd ever really heard the gospel. I didn't know, yeah, I didn't know it. This wasn't stuff we discussed at church, you know, it was mostly just behavior Be good, be quiet. And so I remember doing that. I don't really know. I remember being a little kid asking my mom one time like hey, you know like, you know like our dudes, the right dude, you know like, how do you know? And? And she talked a little bit about faith.
Speaker 4:But my dad was the guy who worked crazy hard. My dad, I mean if my brother, I don't know, maybe they're tied for nicest humans on the planet outside of Jesus. But I mean my, my brother, I don't know, maybe they're tied for nicest humans on the planet outside of Jesus. But I mean he is my dad's the nicest guy, but I mean he worked super hard. There were times where I found out, recently, you know, he was at one company and things were going a bit off and then he literally somebody came into him and was like, hey, I got this opening. I work at one of the big three, they're hiring engineers. Blah, hey, I got this opening. I work at one of the big three. Uh, they're hiring engineers. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, oh yeah, that sounds way better, cause this was going South and and so he literally quit his job and like a week they put a hiring freeze and so for like two years in the eighties, my dad just became a random handyman and I mean he's like painting houses, he's doing. I had no idea, I'm like six, you know, I'm seven years old somewhere in there, but he was.
Speaker 4:I mean I remember thinking now as a father, as a provider, because talking to him now it was this season where it's like I don't know like when, when this basement's done, I don't know what's next, cause he didn't have a whole company. I mean it was word of mouth. I mean and this is pre internet. I mean, this is the eighties, pre cell phones. And so thinking back then, knowing later in life how hard he worked, how I mean the hours he put in the money he saved, going okay, like that makes a little more sense because, man, that would have been freaky for a couple of years, genuinely not knowing where your next bill's coming from, your next paycheck, and that kind of thing. And so I remember getting Kmart shoes. My mom found $2 shoes and they were gray and Velcro and this was long after I knew how to tie. But we got, I got three pair of these gray, uh, walmart or Kmart shoes and I wore through them till my my toes were exposed and then she'd swap them out and I get the exact same pair again. I remember not thinking that was cool because kids were starting to get name brand stuff and I was like, oh, I don't have that, I have Kmart but whatever.
Speaker 4:So I grew up in church, around church. Just just be good, you know, do the right thing. It's cool. My dad was good, he did the right thing. My, my brother was perfect, he did the right thing, like it was that. But I still I was struggling.
Speaker 4:Um, another counselor by fifth grade new one. I'm just playing with toys. So I'm assuming it was like a play therapy thing, cause I don't remember ever talking to him. But I played with things. And then, by sixth grade, there was a man named Mr Reed and and for some reason I think he reminded me of my grandpa, cause I just liked him. I talked to him, I opened up and I I just started talking about the hey man, like I'm having dreams where I'm walking into rooms and I'm dying.
Speaker 4:I'm having dreams where I just feel like worthless. I'm having like these are all my feelings and it just kind of went into this repetition of this is just my life. It's just up and down. You know, I'm going to be okay for a little while. I'm going to be terribly depressed. I got really good.
Speaker 4:I got really good at masking my whole identity as a child, just went into this idea that I'm a failure, it's my fault, but I'm terrified of being exposed. I don't want to. No one can know this. I don't want people to know this. So I'm going to set the narrative for my life. I'm going to show you what I want to show you. I'm going to distract you from what I don't want you to see, and I just started working really hard at that.
Speaker 4:And then the seasons where I couldn't keep it together, I just get really depressed and get into funk and and that kind of thing. But I I did my best to be a chameleon because I thought that's what I needed to do to survive. I mean, life became about survival. I became really good auditorially. I could remember things, hear things. I got really charming because I needed teacher's help. I needed people's help. Charming because I needed teacher's help. I needed people's help. Like I needed to learn how to work the system, so to speak, to survive. And that was just kind of it. And so I ended up in special ed programs and so my tests are getting read to me.
Speaker 4:There was a standardized test in fourth grade I remember taking, and I did the whole thing in like 10, 15 minutes because I mean it was like an all day thing and I just filled that little sheet. You 15 minutes because I mean it was like an all-day thing and I just filled out the little sheet. You know, like dot to dot, and I'm making patterns. I don't care, I'm like I can't read this, like there's literally nothing I can do at this point. So I'm like, all right, here we go, you know, and at the end of the year I got an outstanding score certificate, and so I just laughed because I was like that's hilarious to me. I don't know what's happening, but obviously somebody like me made the thing, because I'm like making patterns and stuff.
Speaker 1:You know, perfect pattern. Yeah, yeah, you know I mean it's great.
Speaker 4:You know A, b, c, d, sure, all of the above, why not? But it was. It was challenging through middle school and everything it was. It was really it was tough.
Speaker 4:I remember by sixth grade I liked teaching, I liked people, I liked interacting with younger people. I had lots of younger cousins, that kind of thing. But by sixth grade I liked the idea, but I didn't like school. And so we're at church and my brother, who's five years older, he's in a youth group and I got to go. My parents chaperoned a trip to Colorado when I was um, my brother was like a freshman and so I got to go. So I hung out with, like, the youth group in Colorado, which was a whole nother thing, cause we lost a kid on a mountain for a whole night, which was interesting, um, but that's, that's another story. Um, but I wanted to be a youth pastor in that time and I didn't get it. I didn't understand. Like, looking back, I didn't have great rationale for it. I didn't have a great example of a youth pastor. It's not like I was like I want to be that guy. I just thought it looked like a fun job and so I liked God, I thought he was cool, I liked teaching, I thought that was cool. And then I hated school. So I was like how do I teach without being in school? And so youth pastor became what I was going to be, and that's just what I tell people what are you going to do? So I remember being in a math class and I was like I'm never going to use this. And the teacher's like what are you going to be when you grow up? And I was like a youth pastor. And she goes you're never going to use this, but you need it to pass my class. And I know, but that, so that was my mode.
Speaker 4:And then I roll into high school, and that's where swimming became big identity for me. I started training at a different level with some people, cause I was okay, but it was just something I did for fun. You know I was looking for the. You know I just wanted my little ribbon at the end of the meet, you know those kinds of things. And then, by high school, though, I started training with just a different team and high school team. And then, by high school, though, I started training with just a different team and high school team, and the coach was a lot different and pushed really hard and and so I, like, my freshman year I qualified for state meet. I qualified for YMCA nationals. I started my asthma started actually kicking in pretty hard.
Speaker 4:So I swim but because of the mentality that I'm a failure, don't want to be exposed, I never wanted to be the one sitting out. I never cause. I did that when I was a kid. You know we do the mile and I just walk. I do that Like I never wanted to be the one sitting out. So I mean, starting in high school, I I would swim until I pass out. I'd swim until I couldn't, like I'd lay on the pool deck looking like a dead fish, you know, and and it was, it was what I did. I in college I took an EMS ride off the pool deck, which is something you always want to do in a speedo Just get carted away on a stretcher through the campus, you know, almost completely naked. You know that's what the ladies like in college. But it was my identity. I was a swimmer, you know, and I I found home and so I was able to.
Speaker 4:Then the depression was a little different because I figured out how to work systems I had. I had people who helped me. I was the poster child for the special ed department. Uh, because at that time it seemed like a lot of the kids the poster child for the special ed department, because at that time it seemed like a lot of the kids who were in special ed came out of either really rough backgrounds or they had some I mean, they're doing drugs, they're doing they're the I say bad kid. But a lot of the kids in me would have been thrown into the bad kid category or whatever. And you know I'm, I'm the good little boy who goes to church every Sunday with his family, and so they loved me, they thought I was amazing. So I was the only special ed kid who was also in national honor society. You know, like it seemed like really weird. But the teachers I mean they're reading things for me, they're doing research things for like they, they just loved me.
Speaker 4:I said the director of special ed at my at my school loved me. I said the director of special ed at my at my school like crocheted me this blanket for graduation, like it was a big blanket. I took it to college. I'm like it's a lot of work. You know, at the time I had no understanding of how significant that was. But, um, but I, I figured out how to make things work. I figured out how to do a system. I figured out and I got swimming. That's my identity. I'm in choir and that's you know cause I was a swimmer and in choir, so like I shaved my legs and I sang, so I was obviously the coolest guy you knew. Um, but it it worked for me.
Speaker 3:Would you say? Would you say that they were enabling you? Is that what? And you figured out how to work the system.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes and no. Yeah, yes, I was being, I was being enabled. Yeah, cause for a long time I would say that I cause it was my fault mentally, I just needed to work harder. And if I would have just worked harder I'd have figured it out, if I'd have just done something different, like it was my fault, not their fault. And so I think honestly now I felt a little bit enabled because it made me feel weak to need things. It made me feel weak when I stood out, it made me feel stupid when I stood out. So I kind of bucked against that in some things. But I also had no other choice because I mean, I genuinely I took the SAT ACT I don't remember which one.
Speaker 3:I think it was ACT, act.
Speaker 4:I took the ACT the one out of 36 with a tape recorder in a room by myself and the whole whole thing was just on a cassette tape. I hit play and I have the test and it's reading it to me Like, but I mean, that was my life, otherwise I'd have never taken the test, like I just wouldn't have happened. And so, uh, there was a degree where I, I pushed it. So, yeah, I, I learned how to charm and manipulate and just do whatever I could to work the system and work people and to help you know, but it became my survival instinct. Would it have been great?
Speaker 4:Now there were other areas, like swimming, where I had a great coach who pushed, and so in areas where I'm like, cause I have asthma, he's not giving me a dime, which I loved and I appreciate it so much. But I mean I'd be, I'd love it, cause I, we'd be at a swim, meet away, meet. And so I'm done, I'm laying on the pool deck, I'm looking like a dead fish. The parents are like the timers and they're like getting their phones out because they're scared to call 911 or something. And I remember I come over and like kind of kick my rib and be like your turn sucked and just walk away, you know, and the parents are like, oh my God, what's wrong with that man? You know like, and it was great, I thought it was funny, like we'd make jokes and all sorts of things, you know, and it was fun. He put things together and clear. You know, he pushed on my chest and I'd flop a little, you know, pretending I was dead. You know that morbid humor that boys like so much. So in areas where I knew I could shine, I really pushed. But in everything else I was, I was hiding, I was, I was hiding as much as I could, I was getting hiding. I was hiding as much as I could. I was getting and they didn't know they were enabling me. I don't think they knew they were enabling me because genuinely I needed the help, but like I knew how to push it and they were excited to help as much as they could be.
Speaker 4:And so through high school, just kind of battled with those kinds of things, battled with depression, and it was seasonal, but I had enough things that I could focus on and celebrate in my life that it kind of balanced the scales. Like I had fun. High school was just fun. I didn't care about work. It was easy. You know, I figured it out. Somebody's going to do my research for me and we'll get the paper in and it'll be fine. You know, like, as goofy as that sounds, like that was my life. I think I did. I did homework four times in high school because I had a whole class each day where teachers would help me, like they'd read things to me, like, so I always had something extra. You know, like I never had to take a language because they're like you can't read English. Like you know, I think we're going to try and teach you Spanish or French, you know. Good luck, kid. You know. So I didn't worry about it. It was great. I wish I had taken languages now you know, hindsight, missed that one.
Speaker 4:But but just growing up and and I'd say normal but not normal, I really liked it. I'm in church. We went through five youth pastors I keep hitting this thing, sorry Went through five youth pastors in four years so didn't have like a phenomenal mentor guide, didn't see anything. We'd go to like camps. I really liked camp because those people seemed to be authentic. I appreciated the authenticity. I mean, I remember I didn't, I just didn't like church.
Speaker 4:They'd get up there and they'd read one verse, read another verse and then talk about something that had nothing to do with it. We'd stand up, sit down, fight, fight, fight, like I don't know. You weren't allowed to be noisy. I wasn't good at that, but I really liked my friends. But when somebody would read from the Bible, it just made sense to me.
Speaker 4:So I can remember being in high school and and and just somebody read and I just talk, and that just seemed normal and that just seemed easy, you know like. So I was the good little church kid and and that was my life and that was my identity and I and I loved it as much as I knew. I didn't know a ton, I didn't have a lot of exposure. But I just really liked Jesus. I thought he was cool, I thought he was real, um, I thought he was great and that's kind of got me through high school into college. I went, uh, division one Oakland university and I was a walk-on swimmer on the team, but then I still can't read, and so but you did graduate from high school.
Speaker 4:I did graduate from high school. I got a 3.8 or something like that I did. Yeah, I was the smartest dumb kid or the dumbest smart, I don't know which one they went through, but I was somewhere in there. You know, I did graduate high high school and and go to college for a couple of years. I went mostly to swim. I thought that was fun. My poor parents, they were so generous and I lived at college and I liked university and, like I said, I got to take a ride off a pool deck, which was really fun at EMS. And I was on a conference championship team for two years, which was really fun at EMS. And I was on a conference championship team for two years, which was awesome. I literally I remember thinking cause I was eighth and 10th in the state in in in high school. So I was, I was up there pretty good. And then, you know, I show up and I'm D one and there's a guy his name was Heisman Hassad and he literally just come back from Sydney because he was on the Egyptian Olympic team and so I'm just like, oh, here's your towel. Like I don't know what else to do. I don't know, I'm not. This isn't even going to be and it's like an events I couldn't even do. He's like 200 fly guy. I'm like, oh, no, thanks, whatever. Um, but I, I loved it.
Speaker 4:But college is where I got introduced to people who were excited about faith. I remember there was a thing called InterVarsity Christian Fellowship and they literally met in a classroom and they had this little Sony boombox you know those little CD players and they'd play like three worship songs, you know like vineyard worship or something. And and it was the. I was like this is amazing. Like I was amazing I'd had a pipe organ my whole life. One time somebody brought a guitar and you thought like half the church thought they were going to hell. You know like, but it's over, uh, and it was acoustic, but but like I'd never seen. So I mean, I remember having like the biggest adrenaline rushes ever just listening to this worship music, just thinking this is awesome. You know like this is like I would lose my mind. I remember like jumping back to my dorm one day after, like I'm like this is like I'm freaking out. I'm like I need to get like headphones and do this before a meet. You know I'll be listening to. You know, here I am to worship right before I swim, you know, or something like that. Um and I, I just learned a ton. I I ended up going to a non-denominational church in a middle school.
Speaker 4:Uh, with friends, we'd we'd carpool at a Sunday night service and we'd all go there and then we'd go to my friend's mom's house for dinner which is awesome Cause she was a good cook and it was amazing. So I'd eat four plates of food because I was a college swimmer. You know like I remember those days. I love that. I used to go to, you remember, boston Market. Oh yeah, I get the family of four meal deal and I would eat it alone. You know, one chicken and like three sides and that was my lunch.
Speaker 4:You know, still didn't like school, still didn't do good. I didn't do good. Uh, I did enough to get by. Figured out the classes. Athletes know the classes to take, cause we got to register first. So I remember being in an intro to Russian class, which was pretty much all athletes because it was an easy C. You know, like teacher didn't care, it was like I don't remember a thing. It was, it was pretty funny.
Speaker 4:I intro to film. You know, ace, that one I was pretty great. You know, I picked my. I told him I started with an elementary ed major because I thought if I can't be a youth pastor, maybe I can be an elementary school teacher. And at least you know, I read a third grade level, because I graduated high school with a third grade reading and spelling level. I was like, well, if I teach second grade, I should be good. You know, like that's, this is my thinking. And so that was my first thought. And then elementary ed was too hard, and so I saw an Simpsons episode where a football player got hurt and the doctor's like, well, it's OK, you can fall back on your major in communication. The guy who's hurt he's I know it's not a real major. And I was like, that's what I want, right there, buddy. So I switched to communications.
Speaker 3:That was my major and I was like that's what I want right there, buddy. So I switched to communications. That was my major.
Speaker 4:I'm waiting for Ben to say something I was going to. So it's just, my life is based on Simpsons episodes, apparently, some dance. Yeah, you know, it's been a cultural, you know shifter. But I'm in college and I'm swimming and my first year in college I started getting I'm swimming and my fresh first year in college I started getting rotator cuff and bicep tendonitis in both shoulders and, uh, that's really bad, you know. But we're training, I mean, we're in the pool five hours a day, six days a week. Um, and so it was a lot. And so I I started seeing the trainer. I started beforehand I'm heating, afterwards I'm icing, uh, they're stretching me out before. And then I spent the whole summer in PT going and just trying to figure it out. And then, um, it just wasn't, wasn't getting better. Still, I'm like taking a shirt off hurt, you know like I mean it was.
Speaker 4:It was pretty ugly and, um, I had a, a pastor. I had a pastor who's so? My cousin married a man and they the pastor at a church. Now, these are people I know and I've known them my whole life, but they're holiday cousins. You know, I had a ton of cousins. My mom was one of the baby of five and then her siblings had like a million kids and so it was just, you know, I had 18 cousins and so, and then their cousins had kids, my cousins had kids and like it was just a whole thing. And so um, he, uh, he, he was dramatic and he, he helped me, we, uh, we went on a.
Speaker 4:I met a kid named Brad, and Brad and I were both walk-ons and so we became buddies. But Brad loved Jesus, he was a Baptist kid and and he, he did, he wanted to go into ministry. He thought it was amazing. He was a researcher, he was a little more type A than me, but we were just goofy together and it was, it was fun, like for our championship meet, he and I, cause we'd shave our heads, cause we're swimmers, we shave everything, but we didn't make finals. You know, I mean this is D one championship meet. So we literally painted our whole skulls, the school colors, you know, and and it looked pretty trippy, right, but we just, I mean we were. So we just go to the meet and we just be running around the pool deck with these black and gold glowing heads.
Speaker 4:Um, it was before I knew what blue man group was, but glowing heads, um, it was before I knew what blue man group was, but that's what we looked like, um, but he and I, my freshman year we went spring break. We were like we're going on an evangelistic road trip, we're going to save the world and we, uh, we were gonna. We raised enough money, and by raising enough money I mean we literally had a glass jar of change, uh, for gas. We knew we had enough money, ish, to get to Fort Lauderdale from Detroit, uh, and we stayed with friends and family and anybody we knew along the way. But we also had no idea what we're doing.
Speaker 4:So I call my cousin and I'm like I think I know this guy and he's like a pastor or something you know, so he can tell us what to do. So I call up and he meets us for lunch and we talk and he's telling us this stuff that he sees and in my experience the Bible is an old book. That stuff is great stories. It probably happened. That's awesome. But nowadays you just be quiet and behave. That's about it. Like it there was. No, there wasn't, there was no connection between the past and the present. And he started, I remember sitting at this we're at this national Coney Island and he, he's just talking about things he's seeing from like Jesus doing miracles, to hearing God being led by the Holy spirit and different things, you know, and talking to people and seeing salvation, and we're like you know, like we're drinking this in, like you're a rock star, cause in my mind it was like the Bible came to life right in front of me and somebody else was living it and it was so different. Then he gave us $60 for our trip and we're like this is amazing. We did. We went on a road trip. I don't remember talking to anybody about Jesus. I remember eating out of the trash. I remember taking a shower in a Baskin-Robbins bathroom, sleeping in the car, you know, and different things, but it was, it was a lot of fun.
Speaker 4:Well, fast forward. I see him again at Memorial weekend right before school. Hey, how's it going? You're at the swimmer. You know what's it look like? Ah, you know I might have to quit because my shoulders and this thing. And he, he tells me he says I love it because he knew where I was. So he obviously he's like well, you know, you could do that or we could pray for you to get you healed, you know. And then he kind of laughed and I'm like, yeah, you know, that's fine, you know, good joke. Uh.
Speaker 4:And then, but push came to shove, end of September already, taking an EMS ride off the pool deck. And then I'm, I'm done Like I'm just kicking, I'm not swimming, I'm not using my arms, like I'm done. And so I called him and I'm like, hey, are you serious? Like you know what's I got to hail Mary, you know what do you got? And he says, come find out. And so I I remember telling people, I told my coach, I told my friends I was like I'm going to go get my shoulder fixed. And that's just how I said it. I didn't say I was getting prayed for, I didn't. I was like I'm just going to go get my shoulder fixed.
Speaker 4:And according to my, my pastor, you know, I was 45 minutes late for my appointment. I think I was much more studious than that. I assumed I was on time, but he had like 15 minutes with me before the next appointment, you know, and I'm so mature and I'm so into it. So we sit at his. We went to his house. We're sitting at his dining room table and he's trying to read scripture to me. He's trying to build my faith because he knows I don't know anything about healing. I'm here to pray for healing. I was never taught that Jesus even does this anymore. I'm not taught anything what the Bible says, but I know nothing, and he knows I know nothing. So he's reading to me and I'm just sitting there going this is dumb, aren't we going to pray? Like, in my mind I'm like who cares? Like, yeah, read this. Okay, I'm redeemed from some curse, blah, blah, blah. You know, I'm like aren't we going to pray? And you know I have such a good poker face, obviously, that he's totally picking up on my vibe of reverence and belief. And so he said, telling the story later, that he was going to wait. He's like I wasn't going to pray, I was going to reschedule, do another appointment. Maybe he'd be on time this time, you know. And he said he just felt the presence of God. So he said well, if Jesus is here, you know he can do what he wants. All bets are off. So he put his hand on me. He started praying.
Speaker 4:Um, I remember hearing. Uh, I remember hearing. I. I swore it was him for years until I talked to him later, but it just said make noise. I had no idea what that was. I started praying in tongues. I didn't know what that was, I'd never heard of that. But I'm just making noise and it's just flowing out of me and I'm like, okay, thanks, and I leave and I just went to practice and I never had a problem again.
Speaker 4:My shoulder got fixed and I was like, well, that's cool, you know like, but it was, it was what I thought would have. Like I was just like, okay, that's going to work. And and I don't know why I had no, I had no basis for this. It was, it was grace in abundance, beyond anything, because he made up for my ignorance and everything else and it was, it was crazy. So that kind of tripped me up because I'm like, okay, there's something more.
Speaker 4:And so that whole year, brad and I have this idea we're going to go to Bible school. We want to go to Bible school. And so Brad's a researcher and he's just hammering it. So like every week he finds, well, man, there's this, there's this Bible school, we should go there. Oh, yeah, yeah, that sounds amazing, we're going to go there. And then two weeks later, oh, what about this one, you know? And so we're just going through it and I remember I was like, well, what about? You know where he went to school? The pastor, you know, I mean, seemed to go pretty well for for me.
Speaker 4:And that year we went on a trip and we visited three Bible schools we went to Chicago, we went to Tulsa, we went to Denver and they were. They were all interesting and it was weird because the one I ended up going with I was raised Presbyterian. It was more of a charismatic Pentecostal, and so I was like this is weird, I have no idea what's happening. People are praying, people are running, people like there was a lot of demonstrative. Now I went to like a prayer meeting for Bible school students at a Pentecostal. So, yeah, it wasn't like an outreach, it was like a church. You know, it was a church service, but I'd never been to anything like that, I'd never even seen anything like that, and so I literally left the meeting. I was like what are they doing? Why are they? Like what the heck is going on here? You know, um, and and my friend who was raised Baptist, he laughed, he's like this is weird, I'm out, you know, um. And so it was. It was one of those things.
Speaker 4:We went back to school, finished up the year, and uh, I just knew. I kind of knew, hey, we're gonna, I'm going to go to this school. And I didn't. I didn't, I didn't know why. Like I, I was good even then because my life has progressed of. I got to follow, I got to, I got to learn, I got to lead, I got to learn to hear his voice, I got to learn. I didn't know.
Speaker 4:Back then I just kind of I heard somebody say it like they knew in their knower, like I just knew in my knower when, uh, when you read an accident, it seemed good to the Holy ghost and not like it just seemed good. I was like I'm going to go to that school. I didn't have like the facts, cause Brad I love, I loved him, cause he was a research, like he would know everything about a place and he would have all this information. And I was the opposite. I'm like, ah, I think that's a good one. Okay, let's go.
Speaker 4:Do you know the founder? No, no idea. Do you know anything about the school? It's in Oklahoma, you know. Like I mean, I think I know the name of it. Like I was just ignorant but it just seemed good and that was my thing.
Speaker 4:And so, uh, I went to Bible school and it was funny because I ended up being sent and given like hey, do anything about this. I'm like no, and there was some good and bad and and there was a lot of internet stuff about the founder and there was internet stuff about the school and and stuff. You know, and I mean it was the beginning of the internet. This is 2002, 2003. You know like we were all downloading stuff off napster. Still, you know, burning cds, uh and uh. For those children out there, burning cds is when you, you didn't set them on fire, you actually had to put music on a cd and that was the whole thing. I had to explain burning cds to like a 20 year old recently and so he's like, why were you burning them? Never mind, just a ritual yeah, yeah, something we did for the music, gods you know.
Speaker 4:But we but I did. And so I found out I'm like, oh, I can't go here. This place is crazy and blah, blah, blah. But I just it was one of those things to where like a week went by and I was like man, I really thought you wanted me to go there. So I made a bargain and I told Guy, I'd give you a week. If this is kooky, I'm out. Give you a week. If this is kooky, I'm out. Give you a week. If this is wackadoodled, I'm out.
Speaker 4:We talked a lot yesterday, so if I skip anything, just let me know. Hey, that was a weird thing. You said you know yesterday. So I go there and the first thing they do I get registered. And it was so funny because things I didn't understand. I love this because this helped me so much later in life.
Speaker 4:But I remember I'm standing in line and the guy in front of me starts talking to me. Now I don't know anything, I am, I am green, and I remember him looking at me and he goes man, I know, god called me here. I'm like cool, how you know. He's like I got my acceptance letter and the devil lost his mind. I got my acceptance letter and the devil lost his mind. He's like my car broke down, you know, I had this bill come in my cat, like he went through this litany of attacks of the enemy, you know, or something happened. And he's like I know I'm called. I'm like, wow, it's a mate like litter. I'm like, oh, I wonder if I'm called. Like you know, I had no idea.
Speaker 4:10 minutes later, the person behind me and I know it was a girl and she's like, oh, I know man, I know she's excited and she was from somewhere like mid, mid East coast. And she's like I got my acceptance letter, somebody paid my tuition, I found an apartment. I like I mean it was like every box got checked, every miracle happened for her to come. I know I come like well, crap, now I don't even know if I'm supposed to, because I was like I just thought I was supposed to come, like I didn't have these circumstances, I didn't have these things. And so I remember, just looking at it, being so confused because I assumed, just by looking around, everyone was smarter and more spiritual than me, because my mentality is still that I'm a failure and that I'm hiding it. So I got to fake it because that went through high school, that went through college, that went through everywhere. I'm faking and hiding everything. I'm swimming until I die because I don't want to look weak.
Speaker 4:I'm charming and funny and trying to be the life of the party, even though I didn't drink. So I didn't drink, I didn't smoke, I didn't do anything. I was the DD, but we'd have swim parties and I mean, I was trying to be the life of the party as the only sober guy there, like cause I, I wanted the spotlight where I wanted it, and it was just all these insecurities I didn't know how to deal with, but I thought I was hiding them really well. And so I found identity in swimming. And then I found identity in girls. I was charming. I knew, you know, I was good with the ladies, you know, like that kind of thing.
Speaker 4:And so then I went to Bible school and there's no swimming and you know I'm not really.
Speaker 4:It's Bible school, it's not like you're supposed to be hooking up with, you know.
Speaker 4:So I had this huge identity crisis to where I didn't know who I was or what I was. And I I I struggled with depression that first year in a totally different way than I had before and I'm like I'm in bio school. Am I depressed? But I was like I don't know who I am outside of this, which was kind of good, because then I started learning about these ideas of who you are in Christ. You know there's all these tons and tons of verses. Paul would write things about being in him. You know you are the righteousness of God in Christ. You are more than a conqueror through him, who you know, and so I'm learning this stuff and it really, it really helped me.
Speaker 4:But for a while, you know who I was was crazy, shaky because I had no idea I was charming, I was funny, I was a swimmer, I was like I had my accomplishments and I won, and everything I had all of a sudden wasn't wasn't what anybody cared about at that time and in that place. And so we go through this thing and but I remember being there and so I'm in that line. After the you know, hell broke loose and then heaven opened up. People you know told me about how obviously I didn't know what I was doing at Bible school. Uh, and they handed me two grocery bags of books and these were my books for the year and I was like awesome, are these on tape?
Speaker 3:Like like I.
Speaker 4:I you know I had nothing, um, cause I don't think they had a special ed department at Bible school. You know, like it was lecture halls and it was, and and it turned out like the book was like half your grade, like it was like, did you the exam? One of the questions was did you read the book, yes or no? You know, and God's watching, so answer, you know, honestly. So my mom calls me and and she says, all right, send us a list, cause she knew what was coming. You know, send us a list of the books your aunts and I will read them into. You know a tape recorders and we'll send you the cassettes.
Speaker 4:And I just was like that's so dumb, cause it felt enabling, it felt childlike, it felt weak, it felt you know so many things. It felt and I was like, all right, I didn't like it. I didn't like it at all, uh, cause I felt exposed, you know, to think that I'd have all these cassette tapes that my mommy and my aunts were reading, you know, while they were eating salads for lunch or something. Uh, I always thought it was weird that my aunts would always eat salads for lunch, cause I didn't think that was a real meal. Um, but I told God I was like, all right, if, I mean, if, if I'm here, if you called me, if, if any of this stuff is true, I go, you got to fix this. I mean this is stupid. So I found the smallest book in the in the bags and it was this mini book and it was called threefold nature of a man. And I sat, I go, you got to fix this. So I sat down and I read it, just the whole book, and then I called my mom and I said I'm good, don't worry about it. And that was it. Like I was, just I was, I was okay, like I wasn't the best reader in the world, I wasn't what I, but I mean I could read, I comprehend, like, and I read my books at school and I was still a procrastinator. So the night before finals there was times where I was drinking pots of coffee just reading every, every page, just so I could check the right box, you know, um, and not lie. But uh, it was.
Speaker 4:It was crazy, cause I went to this Bible school and they're teaching, you know, about things that I had experienced and didn't know. They start teaching about healing. I didn't know anything about healing, but I'd been healed, I, they started teaching about the Holy spirit and, you know, speaking in what? What tongues was you know? And and going through you know, speaking in what, what tongues was you know? And and going through you know, first, corinthians 13 and or 14. And then, like you know, acts, chapter two, like all this stuff, and I'm like, oh, I did that, you know. And I'm looking around I want to tell someone like I did that and like everyone's like, yeah, so did we.
Speaker 4:I was seven and I'm like, fine, I'm just in college, you know, whatever, uh, but I mean I, I, I loved it Like it was. It was like everything I, you know it was funny cause I got kind of mad, cause I felt like it was everything. Nobody ever told me. Like I've been in church my whole life and I was like nobody told me this. Like what the heck? I never and you know it's on me, I never studied the Bible, I never read it for myself and I couldn't. But you know, still, regardless, like I never, I never pushed. At the time I was the best I knew, like my youth group, friend group, everything you know, like I was the best I knew. So I thought I was doing good and then I show up and the you know, there was people here practically like walking on water. As far as I was concerned, you know, and I'm still this like half heathen guy had no idea what I was doing, and so it was. It was unique. And then I meet this group of friends. I met my wife. I got seated next to my wife she wasn't my wife then, in three, because they assigned seating and that's how they just took attendance. You just in a row, you know, you signed in blah blah, blah, and so we were assigned seats. So three classes, we were assigned seating next to each other.
Speaker 4:Now I stopped wearing long pants my freshman year in high school. I wore shorts every day of the year in Michigan, 20 degrees, sweet. I'm wearing shorts, I don't care, I'm a shorts and a t-shirt guy forever. I go to Bible school shirt and tie. I didn't like that shirt and tie. Oh, I didn't like that. And I had enough rebellious nature in me that I knew the dress code and never broke it, but I stretched that thing. So I'd be like in this blue Hawaiian shirt and a red bow tie and I'd be sitting in class and I am, I'm within. I'm right, you know, I, I remember borrowing. I had this Larry boy clip on tie. That was my friend's uh, it was his six year old son, so it came like just barely to the bottom of my sternum. You know, I'm just sitting I'm like looking back like, oh, that guy's such an idiot, you know.
Speaker 4:But my, my wife was like perfect, you know, like she was. I mean, she grew up very conservative, she grew up on a farm in Kansas, she grew up non-sarcastically, and most of the movies, most of my dialogue came from like dumb and dumber, and multiplicity, like there's like Adam Sandler movies, was pretty much half the things that I came out of my mouth. You know, I'm pretty sure she just quoted scripture all day and so I thought she was really stuck up, she thought I was incredibly obnoxious and we were both pretty right. You, I remember she got invited Uh, I got invited to her birthday party by someone. It was birthday, and I'm like, well, what do you want? And she just goes a piano and I'm like, okay, I'm poor, uh, so I, being the charm, I go, I give great hugs, you know, and she goes I prefer the chocolate kind and I'm like, okay, so I'm getting nowhere with this. You know, because I had this self-deprecating humor, the charm, you know, blah blah, blah blah. And she, she didn't play any of that game, it was, it was really. It was weird. It was like they, we, my friends, used to joke. You know, like you, elizabeth, super nice to everybody, unless your name is Jeff, then she's just going to cut you down. So of course, course you marry her. But we, we dated a little bit and we started dating.
Speaker 4:But my first year of Bible school, that group of friends, they tell me you know, halfway through the year or something, they're going on a mission trip. They knew a missionary. They're going to Argentina this summer. And I'm like that's cool. Where's Argentina? Like I don't know anything.
Speaker 4:I in high school Presbyterian church, I went to Mexico a couple of times and we built churches, so cement work in Mexico, we're building churches, and I thought that was a lot of fun and really hot and sweaty, but really a lot of fun. And so I was like that's cool. So I want to go to Argentina. So I find out, I get signed up, I figured out, call my parents, I figure out money, and we and and I'm set to go, and uh, but I mean, this tells you how I live in this ignorance thing. I literally showed up at the airport. I'm going with John Smithwick ministries international to Argentina. That's what I, that's what I signed up for.
Speaker 4:I'm at the airport and I meet some guy and I'm like, hey, who are you? And he's like I'm John Smithwick, you know like of John Smith, and I'm like, oh, cool, like I have no idea, like I, I probably. I mean I'm sure he's like oh, why are you here? Like who let this kid in? You know, I did, I was, I was all zeal, no wisdom, and uh, I just was like this is awesome.
Speaker 4:But we went on this trip my summer, after my first year of Bible school. My brain's already exploding Cause I've learned more in, you know, one year than I thought my whole life. Like I thought heaven had opened up and I was almost glowing. You know, like I mean I was just so jazzed by this stuff. Um, and we go and I'm getting and it was pure evangelism, it was. You know, we'd go to schools. We had like a drama and we had a clown and we were just doing a pure gospel message. You know, jesus can save you. Here's how Jesus can heal you. Let's pray. And I'd never done that, like ever.
Speaker 4:Like I talked a little bit, you know, to my friends about Jesus. You know little things, but I had no idea. I had no idea. I had no idea how to simply share the gospel. Because I, and even today I find in church, um, if somebody said, you know, hey, tell me the gospel. Like tell the gospel to someone who doesn't know, like that's hard for people because in, especially in the United States, we're leveraging. They probably know about Easter, they probably know about Easter, they probably know about Christmas, they probably know about so we're leveraging so much culture. But like to be able to start from zero. So this man, john Smith, we was trained by somebody who was going into India and talking to Hindus who have millions of gods and and and all sorts of things. So like the gospel started at, you know, the, the one true God who created heaven and earth. Like we got to go all the way back and start from the beginning and uh, and it was crazy. So I'm seeing people, you know, get born again and give their lives to Jesus, you know, like, believing our message, I'm seeing people get healed, like I mean, this was 2000,. I think summer of 2003,. I'm sitting on a stage and I was, I was, I was just waiting for my, my turn and it was kind of the end.
Speaker 4:And there's this little kid and I can still see him in my mind. He's a little kid, he's like two and a half years old somewhere in there, and he's playing with his foot, like he's just grabbing it and messing with it, and I'm like, oh, he's a cute kid, you know, because all kids are really cute, you know, all over the world they're adorable. But I'm just watching him playing with his foot. I thought it was cute and his mom is talking and she's sharing a testimony and stuff, and I have no idea. And then I find out that his foot, right right above the ankle, like his bone, was like bent. So his foot was bent, so he'd been like walking on like the side of his foot his whole life and we prayed it's his, his foot just popped straight. So not, this kid wasn't playing with his foot, he was trying to figure out what was so different and like, hey, he doesn't know, his leg just popped straight. And now he's walking normal and he's fine and like, and I'm just like god, I'm like I'm freaking out. This is the cool. I'm living in the bible. This stuff is real I it blew my mind.
Speaker 4:I remember watching there's this short, husky guy and I remember seeing the videotape too. I mean I'm watching and it's like this do you know people who do kombucha? Have you ever seen those things where they have like these, they ferment stuff and it's this thick slimy thing that grows on the top of people who do. It's gross but whatever. But like it's the closest thing I I'm watching the cataracts fall, drip down his face and it's like this slimy lens. That's the closest thing I could see. It was this milky, slimy lens and I watched it just running down his face and he could see just fine. But I mean it. I mean, if I had 12 contact lenses that were cream, white, like that's the closest thing I could and I'm like this. So I lost my mind. I thought this was the greatest thing ever. I'm going to do this. For like I loved it. I loved preaching. I, you know, I understood the gospel. Now I can do it.
Speaker 4:So went to Bible school second year, did the youth ministry thing and then, uh, the whole time I'm I'm trying to learn how to hear, because everything I'm I'm hearing about, everything I'm reading, like Holy Spirit leads, bible leads. I mean the founder of the school, I mean he had stories, bible school and I mean he had stories of Jesus talking to him and showing up like just crazy stuff. And you're like, yeah, I want that. You know, you, you think it's awesome. And so, uh, I'm working on.
Speaker 4:I remember my first year. I'm like I'm here two years and I'm out like this is terrible beginning of the year. But I remember by like November, it's like all right, I might, I might do a third year, you know, we'll see, who knows, you know. And then I March, it's like I'm probably going to do a third year. And then by May, it's like like in September I 20% knew. You know, by November I 40% knew by.
Speaker 4:And so in my life I've one of the things that I've tried so hard is I now know, okay, if I'm at 20, I know where 20 is going. So I'm, as I've grown in walking, as I've grown in faith, as I've grown in learning all this stuff, I've gotten better at not waiting until I'm a hundred percent, like I've just gotten more comfortable knowing all right, I'm 20, I'm 30, I'm 40. I'm, I can, I'm good enough, like I don't have to know everything, I know where it's going, like I know the voice, I know the check and learning how to know that. I remember, for me it was always like trying to hear God and be led. It was always like the old radios in the car where you're trying to find that station so you're tuning it, you go a little bit this way, you went past it, you go a little bit back and you're just always trying to fine tune and uh, for me it was just learning how to hear, learning how to train my ear, learning how you know my, my wife tried to teach me how to play guitar, you know, and, and it was just knowing how, cause she was a musician and she was a worshiper and you know she was amazing. Um, she is, she's awesome, but uh, knowing how to do all that stuff and learning. So I started that progression of just really trying to work on how do I hear, how do I know, you know, watching these cool things happen.
Speaker 4:So second year I'm doing the youth ministry thing, I'm coming home, I'm working in the summer at the church that I went to, where the pastor, you know, prayed for me to be healed and all this stuff. I'm working at my cousin's church in the summers with the youth group trying to help out. And then I go to third year and it's great and it's awesome. And at third year Elizabeth and I are dating like officially. You know, we were like friends plus, so to speak. And second year everybody knew we liked each other but it was just a whole thing, you know, stupid drama, whatever. But we started dating November.
Speaker 4:It was so funny because this was I remember being at a conference in November and Jesus told me to dump her. And I heard two things Like I, I, he told me something like he wanted me to pray for somebody and kind of gave me specific things to pray for. And then he also told me to dump her. So I, I fleeced it out. I was like, all right, well, I'm going to do that one. And if that was you, then I guess this one was. You know, like I want I had to test, because otherwise I was going to like, get behind me Satan. You know like obviously you're wrong. Um, and so I went and I ended up.
Speaker 4:I know, I remember I went to a friend's and I knocked on their door and I go inside and I'm like, okay, this is weird, but this is what I think I'm supposed to pray and this is what I think God said. And they just started bawling and you know, I was like, oh crap, it's right. So I, I literally remember I I dumped my, my wife, and I remember breaking up with her, uh, and I remember how it sounded, cause we were in a car, in a driveway, we're talking, she's crying and and I know cause I was the first guy she ever dated ever. Um, and so it was. It was just really weird. Now we still were friends, that's weird. And we're at Bible school, and that's weird. But so we finished and we graduated and I ended up having to do I did third year, school of world missions, which means at the end of the term, my final project was like a six-week internship, and so I went and I did a six-week internship with a South week internship.
Speaker 4:And so I went and I did a six week internship with a South African missionary, and it was, it was ridiculous. Um, I, it was crazy. It was crazy because it was different than the mission stuff. I, so I'm going on mission trips every year with this same evangelist, and so I'm I'm seeing a different side, cause this guy's living there, he's got kids, it's different. And uh, man, he lived on this property and it was like eight. He's got kids, it's different. And, man, he lived on this property and it was like eight, like I was going to say eight kilometers I've been in Thailand too long oh, it was like eight acre property and I, there was this granny flat in the back, it was like this little house in the back of the property and that's where I was staying. But every night I love him, he's like. Every night, he's like, hey, watch for snakes, cause I got to walk through the grass, you know. And he'd tell me still, oh yeah, I saw this eight foot Viper here and I said, you know, I'm just like, ah, so I'm out there looking for snakes, all you know. And he just like really enjoyed messing with the intern, you know, which I totally understand now.
Speaker 4:But I remember, I remember laying in my bed one time in the thing, and I'm just laying there and it's white walls and it's pretty simple and things in different climates are mostly made out of cement. But I looked over and a spider I watched it kind of come there was like a wardrobe, you know clock cabinet. It came off the cabinet and then started crawling down the wall and I looked and it was bigger than my palm, you know, and I ain't sleeping until I'm dead, like I'm laying in bed going, and I got it down and I took a picture of it at the time, next to my Bible and it was like almost as wide as my Bible and I I killed it thing you know I mentioned, but I was like I ain't sleeping with that Um and so, but that was it. Just opened my eyes. I saw so many cool things and so we traveled. I have too many stories to tell. You know, it was the second time I had a gun pointed at me. I thought I was going to die.
Speaker 4:In Mal, in Mvumba, malawi, we're going to do an outreach and there's five of us now there's the missionary, a pastor from Missouri, his son-in-law, me and then this other guy from South Africa who was a missionary in Zambia, and so we're driving and we're driving, think of, close your eyes and think of, like an African road, you know, like middle of nowhere. Everywhere you look, there's nothing for all day, there's just nothing. And we drive up to this hut and it's literally a tiny hut and there's three guys with AKs and it's a checkpoint and, um, and they're in their twenties, you know and I don't speak what they're speaking and but they're basically shaking down. They want to bribe, but they're going through all our equipment and it's hot and we're waiting and we're just hanging and it's like forever. And so finally, the South African guy literally walks over to one of the guys, throws his arm around him and grabs and twists his nipple and they all three of them literally shoulder their AKs and start yelling at us and I'm like, I'm, I'm, I'm going to die. This is it Like? This is it Goodbye, you could throw my body in that ditch right there and lion or something will eat me later.
Speaker 4:You move the hut a quarter mile down the road. No one will ever find us. Sorry, mom, and it was probably less than 10 seconds, but it felt a lot longer, with people like holding machine guns at you, like I mean me to you, like they're pointing a gun at me, yelling in a dialect I don't understand, and then they laugh and we go and I'm like you, what you? You got some big brass like holy, he's like. I was tired of waiting. I'm like and that's your answer Find the guy with the gun and squeeze his nipple. That'll get you through what the heck is going on. It's the first guy I've ever heard that's been saved by a purple nurple. I know right, the Lord works in mysterious. I wouldn't make a doctrine out of it. He's got some big balls. The Lord works in mysterious. I wouldn't make a doctrine out of it, but he's got some big balls. I was like I don't understand. He was off.
Speaker 3:We're just going to say he was a bit off.
Speaker 4:He made fun of us for putting on bug spray in Africa. And the missionary's like, when was the last time you had malaria? He's like two months ago. I sleep for half a day, it's fine. He played rugby in South Africa Like he was, he was. He was something else but but I mean it was. It was amazing.
Speaker 4:So, graduate Bible school, move to Michigan and I'm working at the church. Um, and I, I still was rebellious. I remember making a Mohawk, a faux Hawk, into my hair for my first day of work because I didn't want to be conforming to the, because I mean, this was a shirt and tie suit every Sunday church that I'm working at as the youth and associate pastor, and so I really God, they had so much grace because I thought I knew everything and didn't know anything all at the same time and they just they worked with me and loved me. And so I got to be a youth pastor and I learned a lot. I got, I sat at the pastor. He was so gracious to me. Now it was it was a weird dichotomy because one, we're family, so there's a lot of odd mixtures, but then also ministry's tough, because when you're the pastor and ministry is tough because when you're the pastor. You're always the pastor and so you're never vulnerable with like there's this limit with people around you and it ends up becoming most of your world, like your whole world becomes your church. So who can you talk to? So you need other people that aren't, and so I kind of became a weird sounding board within my and it was just cause it was family, like so many things just got muddy, uh and and I had no idea what I was doing and you know, they they'd never had, like a youth pastor before, like. So it was just. It was a lot of muddy, uh things that went on through there just trying to figure this out. But I learned I mean I got to sit with him at counseling sessions and he was a really like. He was a good counselor, like he'd sit and people would talk and he was brilliant Ministry sessions we'd go and do old lady Bible studies and we'd go pray for people and we'd go do things. So I learned so many things about practical one-on-one praying and ministering and the Holy Spirit just leading you at his side. It was a great education. So I'm there, I'm doing mission stuff and I'm working at the church and then I end up in Peru, and it's been a year and a half since I left Bible school.
Speaker 4:I'd seen Elizabeth a couple of times. I went to a graduation, I went to a thing and I just saw her, but it was whatever, and we ended up in Peru together and I, uh, I think if I hang out with her, I know my charming self, I'm going to flirt, I'm going to lead her on and I don't think I'm supposed to marry her because God told me to dump her. So, instead of flirting with her and being nice, I was a total jerk to my, you know, and the more of the story I tell, the worse I get. So we'll just kind of summarize. But I mean, she would sit next to me at a meal and I'd get up and move, like, and I didn't have the intelligence or skillset to actually communicate, I was just a jerk, so that. So that went well.
Speaker 4:My, my cousin, she was actually on the trip. She's like I'm embarrassed to be related to you. She's like you're an idiot and I'm like, but I work for you, you know, like, so, um, but it was, and so, but I couldn't. So we came back, I'm in Michigan and I I couldn't get her out of my head. And so I keep messaging and she's awesome because she's finally like hey, what are you doing? Like all right, what, why are you talking to me? Like if you, you know, she's like you know, sit or get off the pot, you know that kind of thing. And so I was like all right, and so we, we started.
Speaker 4:We started dating in September, long-term, cause she lives in Tulsa and I live in Detroit. Uh, we got engaged in April. Um, I, I flew there and I broke into her apartment and woke her up cause that's the way you really want to start every relationship and I, I used a taco bell hot sauce packet that said, will you marry me? And that was, uh, what I gave her to propose. I did other things too, but uh, um, and then she moved to Michigan in August and we got married in October and so that kind of started our, our family and journey, and we're trying to figure out marriage and we're trying to figure out ministry.
Speaker 4:And we had, no, we had no idea, because we didn't have a lot of healthy back boundaries, we didn't have a lot of healthy understanding. There wasn't great community for us. Everyone in the church I worked at was either over 45 or under 19. And we're stuck in our mid-20s, and we're the only mid-20s there, and so we just really didn't know what we were doing. We had no clue what we were doing and so neither one of us had great, great understanding. And so I was just ignorant and thought everything was great. And she was struggling because she went from like Kansas small town to like Tulsa was like a massive city for her.
Speaker 4:Now she's in Metro Detroit, the king of sarcasm and frustration, and you know, I mean, we're just, we're just not friendly folk, you know, in general. And so, uh, it's just major culture issues and shock, and I am just so dumb and I don't see any of it. I'm just blissful. I'm like I get to have sex. This is great, you know, cause I'm a young Christian guy. You know I was a virgin when we got married, so was she just barely I'm the only guy she's ever kissed. You know like she was amazing, she was perfect and I'm, you know, I was still a heathen and an idiot, but uh, so we were just, I was just excited and I, youth group was fun and church was fun, and there was just, we were trying to figure things out, and so we, uh, we liked missions though and I knew, I knew I wasn't a pastor.
Speaker 4:Like if I'm looking at the five-fold ministry, because my boss and we just were, we couldn't have been more opposite. Now, he was very outgoing and when two people are allowed you just assume they're similar, but he was an artist. Like he's an artist artist like I remember he would make a sculpture, have it bronzed and sell it like that's how he paid for his wife's wedding rings. Like he was an artist and it was so easy for him he didn't understand why everybody couldn't do it which is really frustrating, but whatever, uh, so I mean, if he said it's black, I said it's white. If he said it's up, I said it. Like we couldn't. You know, my dad's an engineer, my brain was engineering, his brain was, you know, artist. Like we couldn't have been more different and how and how we we did things and operated things. So it was just there, was it was always just different.
Speaker 4:I knew I wasn't that like I'm not a pastor, cause he's like a shepherd of the flock and that was like his, his skillset and his calling and his gifting was. It was amazing, like he was great at that niche and so I knew I wasn't that and we really liked. We liked missions, we liked the outreach. The guy who did our wedding was John Smithwick, you know the guy I met at the airport, but he performed our wedding. My wife worked for the missions organization before she moved to Michigan, um, and so we're just trying to figure all this stuff out. I remember, oh man, this is big Cause.
Speaker 4:I was freaking out before I started dating Elizabeth again, because I'm a youth pastor, I'm a minister, I know I don't date for fun, because I'm also living in a fishbowl. You know I can't just date anybody and I I was, I was freaking out and I I remember, literally I was living with my parents and I'm on their back porch and I am yelling at God Like I need. I need a pillar of fire, I need a cloud, I need you to write it in the sky, I need auto. Like I need a pillar of fire, I need a cloud, I need you write it in the sky, I need auto. Like I need massive comp.
Speaker 4:This is a big, big decision. Do I date her? If I date her, I will marry her. Should I marry her? Bible school told me the most important decision you make is who you marry, because they will either make or break ministry, they will make or break your life, you know. Okay, so I'm freaking out about all this stuff and, um, because I'm assuming big decision, big confirmation, big voice, god, I mean, come on, bro, like I'm not settling for anything but skywriting and fire, you know, like this, but I mean I genuinely am on my knees and I remember talking to two wonderful women in my life.
Speaker 4:One was my cousin and the other was John Smithwick's wife, a woman named Martine, and they both, in the same verbiage, at different times, told me I was an idiot, which is so encouraging, you know, which is just what. But uh, but I remember, so clear they go, he'll lead you the same way with the big things as he does the small things. You don't get a different leading, that still small voice with something tiny, still small voice, something big. You got to learn the voice. You got to learn like you're not getting a pillar of fire. I mean he won't give you one just to spite you, for feet's sake. I mean like uh-uh.
Speaker 4:And when they said that man, it like when it clicked, it just like, oh well, then I know exactly what to do. Like uh-uh, and when they said that man, like when it clicked, it's just like, oh Well, then I know exactly what to do. Like I was waiting for all these other things. But on the inside in my knower, I already knew. Like I already knew in my knower, I just wanted something more. I wanted something outside. I thought big decision, big problem, big risk. And it wasn't. Everything's the same, it's always the same. It's down in the inside, it's that spirit of peace, it's that peace that passes understanding. It's the still small voice, it's just, it's the knowing on the inside.
Speaker 4:And and so we started dating. We got married, lived there for several years, worked at the church for for years, learned a lot, screwed up a lot, was stupid a lot. We started a couple of years into marriage. We started trying, you know, which I always think is funny because it's like, oh, so you're having more sex. You know, like we just say we say trying, but we started trying to have kids and it didn't go well and we didn't kind of understand it. You know, you just think, because we're also faith people, you know. So I'm just like God's going to do it. I'm a righteous man, I'm a righteous woman, we're doing things right, we got Mary, this is going to work. And, uh, we went about a year and I went and nothing's happening. And then I go, I went on a mission trip for a week.
Speaker 4:I took a student and when I came back, my wife met me in an airport she's got this hoodie on and I still remember it. She her sister, who was living with us at the time literally took the student aside, so it was just me and her and she unzipped and it said mommy on her t-shirt, and I lost my mind and yelled a lot of things and some of them weren't Jesusy, but I was. It was very, I was excited. Um, I just came off a mission trip. I don't know why I had so much, you know, junk in my mouth, but it came out, I was, I couldn't like, I was shocked, I couldn't believe it and I it was. You know, it was cloud nine, it couldn't be better. And so, uh, we come home and we start, you know, we took my parents out to dinner and she did the hoodie and the shirt and it was, it was awesome, you know.
Speaker 4:And we are going through this and about three weeks, in four weeks, somewhere in there, she starts bleeding pretty heavy. And so at six weeks and, and she's freaking out, she's a nurse, she, she has a much more, you know, and I'm not there. I mean she tells me what's going on but I'm not experiencing it like she's experiencing. So I'm like I'm sure it's fine. You know, I have my faith it's going to be OK. You know, god's got us. We can do this. You know, in Jesus name, you're OK because I'm putting everything into it. This is, this is what I think I'm supposed to do. And I mean, I just remember the lady. She's just looking and she's looking and I'm just watching her face and she's just like I'm, I'm really sorry Like there's nothing. There's nothing growing. You know, like I could see where you're pregnant, I could see what you know, but you're not where you should. You know, like there's nothing there and so, uh, we, I, it was.
Speaker 4:It was surreal, it was kind of what confirmed what my wife believed, but I just didn't get it. It didn't make sense to me because I'm like that, that can't be true, that can't be real. I honestly, I think up until that time I didn't know anybody, because once upon a time, I think miscarriages were more something to be ashamed of more, something to be ashamed of. Uh, they weren't openly talked about, probably for a while, cause I'd never really heard somebody talk about it. I didn't really fully understand it. I didn't know anybody who had one, um, because people didn't talk about them a lot, and so I was really ignorant and I was also really ignorant on how to help and. But I mean I remember there was an actual day where she actually miscarried, uh, where I mean mean she, she spent time in the bathroom and and physically, you know, left our baby and uh, and like that day was just, I mean it was long, it was painful for her.
Speaker 4:I, I again I'm a failure because I can't get my wife pregnant. I'm a failure because I can't help her with this. I'm a failure. You know, I'm this great man of faith. With everybody else, I can go to a foreign country and I can man. I, I'd seen it. I'd seen crazy stuff.
Speaker 4:I literally remember I was on a stage and I looked at a dude and he'd been paralyzed for 14 years on half his body and I told him to stand up and he did and he started walking and I didn't even know it. Actually, I said stand up, and I was doing other things and then, like a crowd starts freaking out and somebody had to tell me what happened, because working with Jesus is like being a participant and a spectator in the coolest sport ever all at the same time. Cause you're like, yeah, I got to do that, but that wasn't me. Like I couldn't have been more ignorant if I tried. You know, like, um, but uh, I can hear the sound booth laughing at me. That's great.
Speaker 4:So I I don't know why I'm failing in my own life so much. I don't know why it feels like I can't. Cause again, I got and maybe I just didn't have. I didn't know how to ask the right questions. I didn't know how to open up. I spent so many years as a child trying to protect that. I didn't know how to be vulnerable because I had nobody telling me it wasn't my fault again, but I didn't open that door to anybody. I didn't seek anybody, I didn't look for it and there wasn't anybody in my sphere that I had created relationship with to do that.
Speaker 4:So I'm a young husband, my wife's, miscarrying our child in the bathroom, physically going through hell. I'm sitting in the living room, you know, just going. I suck, I'm worthless, like this is terrible, like what? Obviously I'm failing, you know something's wrong with me and so. But I mean that was real for me. I had no idea because I didn't have any other context. Nothing else made sense. I know God's still good, I know he can do anything. Obviously the problem's on my end and I just went into that loop and internalized it and that was my mentality for everything and so everything, and that that really carried through every time there was something I did wrong or right at church. You know, however it went, it was my fault, just for me. Like I'm, I'm, I'm failing.
Speaker 4:So I'm doing everything I can in life just to hide my own inadequacies, hide my own failures. I'm avoiding anything that's challenging Cause in my experience as a kid, if it was failures, I'm avoiding anything that's challenging because in my experience as a kid, if it was hard I'd fail, I'd get exposed. So just stick to what's easy. And my wife grew up on a farm, which means it was the opposite. If it was hard, you just work harder. You know you wonderful farm people I don't know if you're a farmer, but I know he is but if it's hard, you work harder and you get it. And for me. I didn't have that experience because, no matter how hard I worked as a kid, those words weren't coming. So I just learned if it's hard, you avoid it because you're going to fail and look stupid. And so I, I would do that and everything.
Speaker 4:And it caused problems in marriage. It caused problems at work. It caused problems because I'm just taking the path of least resistance wherever I can, not realizing it, not consciously, but I mean, this is just mentality, survival mode. And then, a couple of years in, so we're still trying, we're still going through it. And then, in 2010, I was talking to my boss and I remember giving him two years notice. I said I think I got about two more years in this position. I really think I'm going to do mission stuff. I really think I'm going to go and travel. I really think that's what I'm really called to do is missions. And so he was great. It was funny because to the month he's like all right, well, it's been two years, like we'll figure it out.
Speaker 1:It was funny Cause to the, to the month he's like all right well, it's been two years, you know, like, we'll figure it out.
Speaker 4:You know I was like, oh, okay, you know, and um, but we're like, okay, what do we do now? So we transitioned to, uh, me kind of being an itinerant. We started a ministry. It was jet ministries Jeff Elizabeth Travis, j E T man. We were clever it's a little plane logo, you know, super cool.
Speaker 4:And I'm trying to itinerate. We're, we're raising funds, I'm going on mission trips with John Smithwick and then I'm paying for, like, my own meat, like we call it crusade or festival, so like he'd have one in this town and I'd sponsor one in this town and I'm preaching there and you know, and it was, it was great and amazing, but I didn't have great skill sets, I didn't have a lot of organizational leadership. I just didn't have a lot of stuff my wife's a nurse working her butt off paying the bills. I'm fixing up a house we bought which I had no idea what I was doing anyway and trying to start this ministry because I think it's what I'm supposed to do In 2012,. I go down to this conference and I remember going down there and I'm trying to connect with people, cause that's what you do you have to go and make connections and smooch, I can come preach at your church and blah, blah, blah blah and uh, I, I meet some people but I'm not making any great connections. I'm, uh, I'm.
Speaker 4:I met some guy and I thought he was pretty obnoxious but everybody knew who he was and he was very sarcastic and I was like this is really confusing, because the last conference I went to him wearing a suit and tie and this one you know that guy's in a t-shirt like this doesn't make sense. You know what's happening and so we, I leave and I'm like okay, you know, I don't know what's going on. I'm sleeping on a buddy's couch. You know it's goofy. I had, I had fun, I met some people, but you know it's not I, what my phone wasn't ringing off the hook and like a week later he actually called this guy.
Speaker 4:His name was Justin and he just said hey, I think you got a lot of stuff that I had. Like, you're like me and my church in my area needs more of that. He goes what are you doing? I was in Troy. He goes what are you doing in Troy, michigan? You know who are you, what do you do and why do you do it.
Speaker 4:There Was, I think, his his thing. He said come on down, check us out. And so I literally drive down to Lewisburg, ohio. Um, you know, which was really hard to find on map quest at the time, you know, I had to print off the pages to follow the step-by-step instructions for all you kids who have no idea what that is.
Speaker 4:But I mean, I'd never been in a town so small my whole life. Like I was like my high school. He's like there's like 1500 people in this town. I'm like it was like my high school, like what the heck is going on here? Like it was crazy. But there was something about it, there was something about this church and he I would say Justin, is the greatest recruiter I've ever seen. He is just, he just knows what he wants and he just he's relentless. And so he's like you're gonna come down here. And I'm like whatever dude, this is Ohio. I don't know how to tell you this, but I was born and raised in Michigan. Um, I'm not a diehard sports guy, but I just know to hate you.
Speaker 3:You know like I mean that's that's all I got you know.
Speaker 4:And so, um, feelings mutual. Yeah, I know, yeah, I've heard Um. And so we cool, man, I'm there, I see what they're doing, that's cool. It told me stuff man, I'm really interested in your church, I'm really interested in how you do things, that's great. But no, and so he keeps bugging. And then my wife and I in the fall we came down and they were doing a big outreach event, fall Fest, and we went and worked and she's seeing everything and we're checking it out. And he's still bugging me.
Speaker 4:And I remember, literally we got to the first light the only light, you know, in town, leaving, and she's like I ain't moving, this little freaking town. And I was like, yeah, you know, because she grew up in a town of like 900 people, you know, in the middle of nowhere, kansas. And so I was like all right, cool, you know that's dumb, but at the meeting it was April 20th 2012. I'm at that same meeting where I met Justin. On the inside, I heard it, and it was just one of those things where I knew on the inside, I knew in my knower and it was clear as day You're moving in two years, get ready. And so I'm like, ok, so that's in the back of my mind all the time. And I remember going home and I walked down the steps, she's on the couch and I go hey, we're moving in two years. She goes where I go. I don't know she goes, why I go, I don't know she goes, okay, and that was it. Like that was our whole conversation. And so I'm like, oh man, you're amazing Cause I'm crazy.
Speaker 4:But uh, so this whole time, when Justin's calling me, when he's, when he's pursuing me, when we're having these meetings, like I know I'm moving somewhere, I just really want to go anywhere. But Ohio, anywhere, but the country, you know, I'm like God, surely they need pastors in Hawaii, you know like. You know you're trying to do that Like Southern Cal Jesus, I heard there's lots of heathens there. We, you know something, and and he just, it was, it was the no and the no or it was the 20, 40, you know by. You know because, because in november it's like no way to this town, you know. But by december it's like, oh well, we're gonna go somewhere, you know.
Speaker 4:And then january, but then by april I'm in justin's up in detroit for a conferencing meeting thing and I literally go. We're moving to ohio to come to your church and he just looks at me because at that point I, I, you know he's recruiting, but I think he probably did that a lot and I don't think he knew. And just beyond, I mean we'd been face to face. This is the third time I've ever seen him face to face. You know, like we don't know each other and there's not like face, like we're not texting buddies or like we don't talk. I don't know him. I didn't think I knew his last name. You know like, and he just looks at me and I could tell it Like I was, like is that still OK?
Speaker 3:You know, but I was like I don't want anything.
Speaker 4:I was like I just think I'm supposed to come to your church, so we're going to your church, you know. And so we, we he's like, ok, you know, and that was that was kind of it. And so we literally sold our house, moved into my parents, wrapped up, packed everything, visited Ohio looking for a place. I remember in October we went, came down here, looked around, went to a couple of places, saw some really bad apartments. I'm trying to remember where we went but like thinking now like oh yeah, we were in really sketchy parts of town. I'm like, oh yeah, we were in really sketchy parts of town, you know, like we were in parts of weird Dayton that were just not great, looking for places to live and nothing panned out and we had to go back. My wife still got her job, we're still working, and it was the first week of December before I found a place and we moved December 13th and so a little before, a week before we're moving, I mean I already rented a U-Haul, I packed everything and saying it now it's like I was such a great man of faith. No, I was really just ignorant, like I just was. I just kinda I knew when I I'm supposed to go. So I went, like so I prepared to go. I didn't, I didn't know, I didn't know. It was like I'm going to go get my shoulder fixed, like he just he uses the foolish things of the world that confound the wise. I'm the foolish thing, apparently, because he just I really did. I was like, okay, we're just going to go. And so we just figured it out and God bless my wife, cause that's not a comfortable position, I think, for a woman and a mom, you know, hoping to be a mom and all that stuff. But we did. We rented a house in Eaton and then we came down here and Justin starts talking to me. You know, I've been a youth pastor and associate pastor for several years, but I am, I'm trying to be a missionary because I'm an evangelist, I'm not a pastor. We come down here and he's like hey, we're starting a second campus and you're going to pastor. And I was like you're an idiot because I'm not that guy. Like I was like I've seen the pastor shoes there, you know, they're penny loafers, I'm in sandals, like this ain't going, you know. And so he's like all right, well, help me, I got this team, we're working on this campus. We, you know, we have this plan where, you know, we have this thing going on. Okay, cool. So we're start helping, we start pouring in, we're there. Meanwhile we're still trying, you know, my wife and I we're still trying to have kids.
Speaker 4:Uh, we left the church where everyone was older, young, you know, but there wasn't any babies, there wasn't a lot of people pregnant. We knew people who never had kids, you know, uh, but we came here and it was like Preble County had something in the water, cause everybody's rabbits were like there's just babies flying off the shelves, um, everywhere, and it was. It was awkward and it was uncomfortable. You know cause I'm trying and, but I remember the executive pastor, keith, really good friend, but he tells he loves telling stories on me. But he'll tell a story where he remembers me being in like the lobby of church and people going hey, what are you doing? I'm from Detroit, you know, cause that's how he impersonates me.
Speaker 4:Apparently, I used to be loud and they're like what are you doing here?
Speaker 4:I have no idea. I came to go to church, like you know, and, but I did, I hadn't cause people in Michigan they're going. Why are you going on? I don't know. Do you know anyone there? I know a guy. What are you going to do? I don't know we're going to live, I don't know.
Speaker 4:Like I had no answers for anything, I didn't have a job. We I mean we just got a house like a week before. I mean, I, I had nothing, I had no reason to go, but it was. It was that. It was that knower and um, and I, I developed my own little system to where I would test things. So before I mean weeks leading up and my 20% knowing and my 40% knowing and growing, that knower, I started saying things out loud. I started saying you know, I'm going to stay in Michigan where my family is, where my friends are, where I have a lovely house that I really like, and I just got nice and I, you know, I got to like I have this and my wife has a job and it's good, like best scenario, and I'm just on the inside it's like somebody offered me a liver sandwich or something that just I don't want that. And then I would say out loud again I hit pause and go. I'm going to move to the butthole of America, ohio.
Speaker 4:I don't know anyone don't have a job, I don't have a reason I don't have, like I'm I'm painting the worst, like I will die of some disease in ohio, like I'm painting the worst picture and just down here it's peace, and I'm just like like I'm trying to convince him as much, like, but I was like I I can't shake that and and I just I mean I was, I was trying to test it as much as I could and I did that over and over and over, like I'm saying I'm by myself, speaking out loud and I mean just on the inside, I got nope, and yes, a red light, green light all day. And I'm just like, all right, so we did. And I had no idea what I was going to do, I had no idea why I was going to go, but it just seemed good, it was seemed right and you know, looking back at history, like that seems to be my life. I, I, I didn't know about the Bible school, but I thought I was supposed to go, so I went. I didn't know about, you know, the, the wife, but he said go, and so I married. I didn't know about Ohio, so I moved, but I moved to Ohio because he said it and moved. But I moved to Ohio cause he said it and so, long story short, it was not that any of this is short, but we're going. You know, we're up to 2006, you know, or something like that. Um, but we, uh, we ended up coming and, uh, we was on this committee and we're helping start it and we're like, okay, we're going to help launch this campus. They're they're they're starting a church at a YMCA. Sounds good, we'll figure it out. You know, I'm here to help and Justin and I got matched.
Speaker 4:Our task, you know, dividing things was to find the pastor. All right, cool. So I remember walking into his office and this is in like March of uh, of of 2014. And, um, I walked in his office. I'm like, hey, do we want to go to a conference? Do we need to go to a Bible school? Like, hey, what are we going to do to get this ball rolling? And he just looks and goes it's you, I'm just waiting for you to hear from God. And I was like, whatever. This again, you know, whatever. You know, idiot. And then that day I went and met my wife for coffee at Roscoe's and it's when the couches were up front. And she's sitting there and I'm walking behind the couch and I'm like you're never going to believe what Justin said. You know.
Speaker 1:Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my dad, Dan. He owns Catron's Glass.
Speaker 2:Thanks, allie. Things like doors and windows go into making a house, but when it's your home you expect more like the great service and selection you'll get from Catron's Glass Final replacement. Windows from Catron's come with a lifetime warranty, including accidental glass breakage replacement. Also ask for custom shower doors and many other products and services. Call 962-1636. Locally owned, with local employees for nearly 30 years. Catron's Glass the clear choice.