BeTempered
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 59 Part 2 - Jeff Travis on Special Needs, Spiritual Warfare, and Surrender
In Episode 59 Part 2 of BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Jeff Travis for a raw, unflinching conversation about faith forged in the fires of real life. Jeff opens up about his remarkable journey—from a struggling student to a reluctant pastor and, eventually, a missionary in Thailand. What begins as a familiar story of answering God’s call soon unfolds into something far deeper—a father’s desperate fight to protect his family amid cultural isolation, special needs parenting, and relentless spiritual warfare.
After years of battling infertility and enduring painful adoption setbacks, Jeff and his wife Elizabeth finally became parents to three beautiful children. When they felt called to the mission field, they sold everything and moved to Thailand, believing they were stepping into their greatest adventure. Instead, they found themselves in a harrowing struggle as their oldest son developed severe behavioral challenges in a place with almost no resources or support.
With brutal honesty, Jeff dismantles the myth of the bulletproof spiritual leader, sharing how God often works through our most broken places. When bombs from a nearby civil war literally rattled their home while their son was in crisis, Jeff faced the hardest question of his life: Was God asking him to sacrifice his family for ministry, or was caring for his family the ministry itself?
Whether you’re a parent navigating a child’s special needs, someone wrestling with feelings of failure, or simply searching for authentic faith in life’s messiness, this conversation will both comfort and challenge you. Jeff’s story is a powerful reminder that sometimes the most spiritual thing we can do is admit when we need help—and that vulnerability, not perfection, is the true path to healing.
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my dad, Dan. He owns Catron's Glass.
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Speaker 3:Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.
Speaker 4:Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.
Speaker 3:We're your hosts, Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.
Speaker 5:This is Be Tempered. Welcome back to the Be Tempered podcast. This is episode 59, part two, and if you haven't listened to part one yet, hit pause and go back. Trust us you'll want the full story. In this second half, we continue the powerful conversation with Jeff Travis, diving even deeper into the challenges, the breakthroughs and the moments of faith that shaped the journey. So, wherever you are driving, walking or winding down, get ready to be encouraged, challenged and reminded that growth often comes through the fire.
Speaker 6:Here's part two, and that day I went and met my wife for coffee at Roscoe's and it's when the couches were up front and she's sitting there and I'm walking behind the couch and I'm like, dude, you're never going to believe what Justin said. I told him let's go somewhere and he said it's you. And I'm like whatever. And she goes well, and I was. So I was like you, traitor, we were on the same no pastor team Like you and me. We were on the same no pastor team like you and me.
Speaker 6:What the heck, you know, because I was convinced I'm not that guy, this isn't my path. I was convinced, I knew I was supposed to be in ohio. You know, I don't. I didn't do well with connecting dots apparently. I just thought I'm like I'm not that, I'm that, you know. And, uh, she goes well, we're going to. You know, we're going to help launch it. We're kind of going to do the job in the beginning anyway, until whoever's there. So you know, we can kind of I'm like, oh, you betrayed me, like this. That's my thinking.
Speaker 6:So we went and met with. We met with Justin and his wife, jenny, at their house and it was like, okay, what's this really look like, you know? Cause I could tell it's different. There were things that weren't like.
Speaker 6:I thought he wasn't anything like the other pastor I'd worked with, and so, you know, I'm a lot like him. I wasn't. I knew I wasn't the other pastor, I knew my calling was different, I knew my skillset was different, I knew everything about my demeanor was different, you know. And so so we're like, all right, we will. He kind of laid it out, this is what it looks like, this is what it means, you know, and this is what we expect. And blah, blah, blah. And then we're like all right, we'll commit to a year, We'll give you a year, get this thing going. And he just looks at, he goes I'll take no less than three.
Speaker 6:And I thought my wife had a stroke right then, like, like her face just was like uh, like I was like it sounded like a life sentence in prison to us, like it was like, no, I don't want to be in church forever, I want to go see the world. You know like, and uh, and we were actually going. That was a Wednesday. We were going Friday to Costa Rica on a mission trip, and so we're like, oh, we'll pray about it and we I mean we're in our element, you know, we're there, we're doing outreaches and praying and like we're holding I mean babies, and I mean we're doing stuff. It's awesome. And I can't get this goofy church thing out of my mind, and she can't either, and we're like fine, three years, you know start the clock you know, but I mean, it was again.
Speaker 6:It was that piece not the thing I wanted, not the thing I knew, not the thing I understood, cause I didn't know anything about pastoring a church. I, that was such a, that was such a different concept to me, uh, that I was so clueless on. I was like this doesn't make sense. You know, I I follow orders. Great, I'm not. I'm not that guy. I'm really good at being coached, I'm really good at blah, blah, blah, but this isn't my wheelhouse and you know, I'm I'm obnoxious and honestly, I care more about the, the center, than the same. Like, oh you, you know, jesus, awesome, I don't care about you anymore. Like, let's find somebody who does. Like that was kind of my heart and so, uh, but we, we said okay, and so we started working, went through the whole gamut. Uh, meanwhile we're still trying.
Speaker 6:I'm working odd jobs, my wife is, I mean, we moved here, I'm, I'm shoveling snow at 4am for people and and I'm the new guy in the crew, and so the like 20 year olds driving the truck, the 32 year olds outside shoveling the walks, you know, um, the guys didn't know my name, but they knew my last name was Travis, so they just called me Randy, which didn't make sense to me. I uh, I literally moved. I moved to Preble County and I remember the first day I get in, it's like 5 am and I'm like this is stupid. I didn't used to drink coffee until I started doing snow plowing in Preble County. But I got in the car and the guy's like hey, randy, how you doing? And I was like where am I? Like how far south, you know, I only drove like four hours on 75 south from Detroit. Like what, how did I get to Kentucky? But it was just a different world. But we're, we're working odd jobs, we're doing it, we're trying to figure this thing out.
Speaker 6:In September we launched the church. My wife's a nurse, she's working second shift, I'm working landscaping and coaching, swimming at the YMCA and just trying to get the church going in the community. We're not seeing each other. I, it was in November. She's like, hey, I got this going, this going on, and, by the way, I hate you. And I was like what you know? And she's like we don't see each other, like we're, we're literally just passing each other in the hallway, you know, and, and at best, you know, we're trying still, for you know what is this year? Like four, five of trying and still nothing since the first time, nothing since the miscarriage, and now we're in a land of rabbits, you know.
Speaker 6:And now I'm jumping into, I'm jumping into pastoring, to where I get to preach mother's day for the first time, cause when you're a youth pastor, a social pastor, you don't preach holidays. You know, that main guy preaches Easter. The main guy preaches Mother's Day and Father's Day, like the main guy. So I'd never done any of those, I'd never spoken on those. So you know, this is my first Mother's Day. Well, that was fun, because my wife's leading worship and I'm, you know all the mom stuff, you know. And then I'm doing father's day and dads, you're great and amazing and someday I hope to be one like you know, uh, and it's just that failure thing again.
Speaker 6:And so my wife's hurting and she's dying because obviously what's wrong with us and everybody we know is getting pregnant and everybody we know is having kids, and so life just became very, life became very compartmentalized, because I have to be that person at church. So I'm just playing my roles. I learned this as a kid. I got really good at it. You know how would the role I play at school, the role I play at home, the role I play this, that. So I'm playing my roles. I'm the pastor guy and I wasn't disingenuous, I wasn't like faking any, but I just kind of knew what hat I had to wear for that position and then what things to shut off in that position. So I'm great at helping you. I'm great at you know I can counsel you and do your wedding, do your funeral, preach on Sunday. I mean, the church is growing. It's great. It really was. It was so much fun and I loved it and I'm watching people get just lives change. It was so much fun, I absolutely was addicted to it. And then on the flip side, I'm I'm just hurting.
Speaker 6:And so finally my wife, uh, started coming to me about adoption, because we knew several couples that were in their late forties at the time and they were believing to have kids. They were using it, just like us. We're trying to get pregnant, blah, blah, blah. And they're in their 40s and late 40s and even into 50s and they still had nothing. And Elizabeth's like I don't want to do that, I think I'm supposed to be a mom.
Speaker 6:Look at adoption, and for me adoption was a failure. It's a faith failure, like from in my mind you know, I'm adopting a, I'm going to be babysitting somebody else's kid for life, like that's what I thought. And I never babysat, that wasn't my gig. I liked playing with other people's kids sometimes, you know, but mostly I liked sending them back to their parents, like I just wasn't, that wasn't my wheelhouse, and so, um, I didn't like the idea of babysitting. I didn't like the idea that I was a failure.
Speaker 6:Um, I didn't have enough faith to get pregnant. I didn't have enough faith to blah, blah, blah and so. But I love my wife and I didn't know how else to help her. Again, I'm feeling like a loser. I'm a powerless husband. Um, I didn't know how to fix it. Cause I assume that's my job. Uh, because I think a lot of times we do. We think it's our job to fix everything, it's our job to do everything, it's our job to heal everything, Like that's our job because we're the fixers. You know, Um and uh they. So years ago, this was the best lesson I learned about ladies.
Speaker 6:I remember I'm sitting in my dorm room and I have a friend named Jessica, and I'm sitting in a dorm room, I'm watching TV and she walks in, doesn't say anything. She literally took a pillow, put it in my lap, put her head down and just started crying. You know, because that's what every guy is so comfortable with, and I'm I just kind of froze and it was like 10 minutes she's just crying. She has a boyfriend, we're good friends, like it's nothing weird. And she gets up, gave me a hug and left and I was like, and then later I was like that was the nicest thing.
Speaker 1:I was like I literally didn't say words, because I know that's what I need. I was like okay, you know.
Speaker 6:So I guess sometimes talking isn't always the best, but I remember learning like, oh, I didn't need to fix your problem, I just was there and you cried, and that's great, but but I'm still trying to fix everything. And so, I agree, we start adoption and adoption's expensive like crazy, like the. We found an agency. My wife is a researcher. She found an agency. You know good review, you know all the things. Cause I didn't know how to do this. I mean it's crazy, you know, cause in my mind adoption is the. You know the TV ads. You know over like 10 cents a day, or you know you can adopt this kid or whatever. I didn't know anyone who had adopted. We were very ignorant on this, and so we looked at foster care. We looked at, we looked at a lot of different things we knew for us. We went to some meetings about fostering, but I knew the goal of fostering was to get the child back with their parents, and I knew we couldn't do that. I was like I can't do that, I can't have a kid, and then like we won't be able to handle that, I know it. And so we ended up going with adoption. So then this process, I mean we started in January with paperwork and we had to take parenting classes and we had to go through interviews and we had to get housing inspections and we had, I mean, it took us six months and then it was like twenty four thousand dollars out of the gate 24, five and so we got a loan and we raised money and we're, you know, and we're pastoring a church as well, and so people know, I mean we're pretty open about it to a degree that we're starting this process once we got going, but I still am, I'm not on board, because I'm still thinking I'm failing, I'm still thinking this is wrong. I still don't want to babysit and God bless me.
Speaker 6:In April of 24, no April of whatever year, that was 2016, april of 16, we're at a meeting and the main speaker had adopted, and I didn't know who he was, I didn't know anything, but he had adopted all four of his kids and they're adults now and and so I ended up, somehow I ended up across from him at a dinner and it was. It was Jesus, was very kind, he really is nice to me because, you know, I had no reason to be with the main guy at a dinner. You know a bunch of people. But he starts telling me his story and for him his story was he was like a fifth generation pastor. They couldn't get pregnant and he thought adoption meant the lineage of pastors, ministers in his family was ending. So that was a huge failure. And he's like a teacher at Bible schools and like he's a pretty big name in faith circles and, like you know, it was a huge failure. And he's like a teacher at Bible schools and like he's a pretty big name in faith circles and, like you know, it was a big failure.
Speaker 6:And he was praying one day and God told him, asked him hey, what part do you play in the child? You know, like, what do you bring to the table? And he's like the flesh. You know my, my seed, or you know all that stuff. And God said what do I play? He goes, the spirit, the person, you know the life. And God basically said I can put your kid in any flesh, in any bun, in any oven, like I could put your kid, the same spirit I put in your wife's belly, I can put in another belly. I can do that. So don't think that something has to end because your part's different, my part's not. And so he told me that story and kind of how he coped with it and he's like I got, three of my kids are in ministry, you know, or something like. Something like that. I'm trying to remember exactly. So that might be wrong, but it doesn't matter. But that helped me because I was like, okay, so I stopped thinking about babysitting, I just started praying God, hey, I want my kid. I don't care what oven the bun's in, I don't care what they look like, you know whatever, make them cuter than me, you know whatever. But like, I want my kid. And so that's kind of where we started putting our faith. And so that was great. Like now I was on board, so that's April, by August we finally get approved. You can throw your hat in the ring, you know we've got all the paperwork, all this stuff. It's amazing.
Speaker 6:And so what was hard about the adoption and this was just the way our agency worked is they would send an email.
Speaker 6:Mom comes into the option office, you know, hey, I'm pregnant, I'd like to give my baby up for adoption. And they get information about her as much as they can History, dad history, if they can, any kind of mental stuff, health stuff, drug stuff, like whatever it is, and we get these, we get these little bios and you get an email and you get a bio and you have to say, yes, I want to be in the running for her to choose me, because the mom makes the choice, or no, I don't, or you don't say anything and you don't get put in anyway. But there's lots of like 60 families waiting, so there's like a clock on this. So like I'd get texts from my wife check your email, you know cause she'd get an email and then I'd have to check it. Oh, it looks good, okay, let's go, you know. And then you send it in and you wait. For days and unless you're picked you don't hear anything.
Speaker 6:And every now and then, like once or twice a month, they'd send out kind of updates like, oh, this family, because they're trying to encourage you, that other families got matched, you know. And really you're like, screw you, you know. But so it's like, oh, I guess they pick them, you know. And really you're like, screw you, you know. But so it's like, oh, I guess they pick them, you know. And then so we, we threw our hat in the ring in in August. I mean, we were throwing our hat at everything. We, you know, we didn't care about race, and we weren't. We didn't care about race, we didn't care about, you know, color, gender. Like we were fine, we, we were pretty open with anything. And so in September we threw our hat in the ring somewhere and at the end of September we get a phone call that we were in contention for a lady who liked us but she was going into premature labor. Like, are we still interested? And we're like, yes, we're still interested, let's go, you know. And then nothing. And like a day went by and they finally called us back Cause we're like, ah, are we getting good today? Like what's happening? You know, you're on the edge of your seat. And then they call us back and like, well, she didn't go into labor, she didn't have the baby, she's still interested in you, but she doesn't want to meet, she doesn't want to talk, on zero contact. We're like, oh, okay, so are we Matt? Like is this like official? And I think it was till like mid October, till it was like finally official. Like she, you know, big decision for a mom, crazy stuff, like just just out of the you know, just wild and so but in October it was like official, okay, you're matched. And she's, she has an appointment, she's going to be induced on December 1st. You know you can go to the hospital, you'll be in another room, she'll have the baby, they'll bring it to you. You know all this stuff and we're like, amazing.
Speaker 6:So we're celebrating our church. We made announcements. You know we took the pictures with a car seat. You know, coming in December of 2020, 14,. You know our baby uh, tell the church. We have baby showers. We buy the crib, make the nursery. I mean we just we go through the whole thing. We got names picked out, we lay in bed every night and we're praying for our son, you know, cause she was having a boy. We picked out a name. We called them by name, you know, like our last name, his first name, you know everything. We went through it, um, for a while.
Speaker 6:And then November 30th was a Wednesday and I got a phone call about 10 am, because I don't go until about 11 on Wednesdays because we had church that night, so we pushed back our schedule that day. And I get a phone call and it's the agency and she just said she's changed her mind, she's going to keep the baby, and that was the day before she. So I mean, we had a hotel booked, we were going to keep the baby, and that was the day before she. So I mean we had a hotel booked, we were going to leave that night, drive to the hotel, stay the night and then in the morning go to the hospital and do the whole thing.
Speaker 6:And uh, I remember I, I fell on my knees, I dropped the phone, I, I told my wife and it wasn't a long conversation. It was like you know, hey, these, these things happen, you know. But you know, we'll see. And she, even the, the social worker was very nice, but she's like she saw a family and they convinced her to keep it and they said they'd help she goes in. Our experience they don't, but this is her decision, you know, and went through it and so I lost it. I mean I'm, I fell completely apart. This was, this was a loss greater than even it felt like the miscarriage was. This was bigger to me than that it was. It was total mess and my wife's amazing, I'd say, the gift of faith was the time I saw an operation, because to watch her I'm sitting in the bedroom, I'm on my knees and I look over at her and it was like. It was like having a marionette and somebody pulled all the strings, like she just went up straight and she goes, it's going to be okay, and I'm, I'm crying like a baby, like I'm losing it.
Speaker 6:We went and told the pastors and I lost it with them and so I kind of stayed home for the day and my wife it was Wednesday night church. She led worship that night. I'm in the balcony just losing my stuff because nobody knows. We told a couple people because we're still hoping that she's going to change her mind. You know we'll get that call tomorrow, not my. Saw the kid, he's ugly. You know you have a murder. I don't know. You know I'm just I'm hoping for something. And so we literally did.
Speaker 6:We went out there, we, we went to the hotel, we, we prayed, we waited, I'm getting. I mean, I got over 50 text messages that morning day congratulating me on becoming a father, so excited for me, so encouraging, and and so by by late that afternoon I had to go on Facebook and and just kind of explain what happened. And then I wrapped it up with like hey, we appreciate your prayers, but we don't want your comments or opinions. Please keep them to yourself. Like I don't. I don't want to know why you think this is happening, cause I don't care. And that was a, that was a Thursday.
Speaker 6:We stayed the weekend in that hotel just trying to wrap our heads around it. But then Saturday went back, cause I'm preaching Sunday. And so Sunday I stood up in front of the church and I had to tell them hey, god is still God, because I'm the pastor. I mean, god's supposed to do things for them, and if it doesn't work for him, how's it going? So I had no idea at that time how much it affected my church and how much it was affecting people. Like it rocked people's faith for me like their faith about me. And it was. It was nuts, and so we, we, we did that and it was. It was crazy and so, but Jesus, still, jesus will figure it out. So we went through and still pastoring, still doing our thing, still traveling, still figuring things out and loving it. Church is going great. Everything's awesome. You know, we're up into the right and everything and it's it's great seeing people's lives change, enjoying it.
Speaker 6:And then we applied to over 50 moms going through the next few months. We twice got on a, got a call to go meet a mom for like an, a follow-up interview, and then in route got called and said she changed her mind, so just turn around and go home. And then we went to Facebook I mean after months and we literally created our own Facebook. My wife created a Facebook page about our adoption and told the world to share it. And somebody in Preble County reached out and there was this young lady who was pregnant. She was in her early 20s, I think, and so we connected her to the agency to do everything. And then we got matched and she wanted to meet us. So we went to lunch. We met the birth father. We met her. We went to ultrasounds. We got pictures, you know like where my wife and her texting and like you know, this stuff is going forward, we're figuring it out.
Speaker 6:And then in late May, uh, she calls us and says she's going to keep them, she's changed her mind. And uh, and that one, it was just it hit differently. You know, I'd kind of been through it a little bit so I knew I remember walking in, I was at work when my wife called. I opened the door to it was Justin's office pastor, justin, and he's in a meeting. I just opened the door, I go, she's changed her mind, she's keeping it. I'm going home. And I closed the door and I just left like that was, you know, that was it, and and obviously he, he knew what I meant, you know, he got it and so went through all that and so it. It was tough moving forward all summer.
Speaker 6:Same thing we're going through stuff, we're we're adopting, we're not adopting, we're throwing our hat in the ring. My wife gets a phone call on a Friday Um, would you be interested in a nine month old? This is in August and she's like I don't know. You know, okay, they like mom's in here, the mom's in here, and she has a nine month old. We know your story. We know you've been matched twice. We were going to show her, you and another couple, see if you'd like it. Blah, blah, blah, okay. And so we're like okay, sweet. So Friday we get the call. Saturday, she likes us, wants to meet us.
Speaker 6:Sunday we drive four hours and we sit down at a Starbucks at the weirdest job interview you've ever been to. You know, cause it's like everyone's awkward. You know, the mom is there, her, her biological grandma, the social worker, me and my wife, and I think everyone at the table is an introvert except me. And so I'm just talking like hi, I'd be a good dad, you know, you should give me your kid, like I, I, you know it's. What do you say? And nobody knew what to say. And so we're just asking questions, we're talking and, um, she finally go. She looks at it and she goes would you like to meet him? And I said no. I said you know, we've, we've, we've been connected before, we got hurt before. Can't do it, can't, can't. You know, I can't handle that. And she said I'm going to go get them. I said cause if you're still shopping, I can't handle it. She goes, I'm going to go get them. So she go, gets them and the social worker is freaking out Cause she doesn't know if this is legal. You know, can you get them? Can they see him, like I don't know? So she's like on her phone freaking out.
Speaker 6:It was really was he was. We took him to the doctor and he was in the fifth percentile of height but the 95th in weight. So he was, you know, technically a short, fat kid, medically, um. But we, uh, we went through this whole. I mean we hung out with him for an hour, we leave and it's surreal. And we get a phone call. It was four hour drive. We get a phone call. It's like, hey, she likes you, you want to take him.
Speaker 6:And I knew my wife's. My wife has had a picture for years in her mind of her newborn baby and this was like a 24 pound kid sitting up looking at you and it was such a different. I mean we just had newborn clothes, we just had, you know, like we didn't have anything for a nine month old, you know, for diapers, for this chunk. And so I told I say, hey, give us till morning. And he's like, seriously, and I'm like we just need to process this out, but we brought him home Wednesday, brought him home Wednesday it was crazy. And then I told the church that Sunday because the next week was like baby dedication and so like I mean it was just, it was really cool and we had this kid and the first night we brought him home he slept 12 hours without making a sound and I was like he's amazing.
Speaker 2:We're the best parents ever.
Speaker 6:It was the last time that happened, first and last, but so, gosh, this is a long story. I'm so sorry, but it's okay.
Speaker 3:You're good man, You're.
Speaker 6:Through that process we get a call from somebody that literally said I peed on a stick and I'm having your baby. And my wife and I knew, okay, you're a single gal, this was not expected, you're just freaking out, so we'll walk with you through this. But we know you're going to change your mind, and that's okay. Walk with you through this, but we know you're going to change your mind, and that's okay. And uh, and to, to their credit, she, she literally like she had a mentality of a surrogate the whole time. And so, literally the day we brought Isaiah home cause we thought this was going to fall through, but we kept it on the back burner, but we still needed the agency to be looking, so we didn't connect her immediately with the agency because we really believed she was going to change her mind and the agency was still working. So the day we brought Isaiah home it was a Wednesday we dropped him off and drove to the hospital and met her and found out she was having a boy. So we brought Isaiah home on August 30th and then on January 7th we're in the hospital and our second son, ezra, is being born and my wife got to be in the room and I call him easy because he cost half as much, because it was just some legal fees, but the process was a lot simpler, you know. But it's so funny because my, my oldest son, isaiah, he, his, his, his biologically father has is was like half African-American. So he's got like dark curly hair. He gets Brown in the sun. He's got dark eyes. Ezra is like the poster child for every sunscreen you've ever seen Like he is. I think his mom was a redhead, dad was blonde. He's blonde hair, blue eyes, as pale as you can get, you know. And so we have like SBF none and SBF a hundred everywhere we go. Um, so we're, we're figuring that out and through the process. I mean I had to start pre pre-adoption. I started counseling cause I'm the guy who everyone's talking to and I'm talking to nobody. I had to get help. I felt lost, I felt abandoned, and this made life different, not perfect, not easy, but we ended up fast forward. We go through everything.
Speaker 6:2019, I get a phone call. I'm sitting at my desk in October 2019, and I get a call and it's someone I know and their niece is pregnant, she's 16, and they are, uh, trying to help them because abortions on the table and they're like you've done adoption, tell me what it looks like, how, what do I tell them? How do I coach them? Blah, blah, blah. And so I went through it. I literally hang up the phone, I go crap. And our secretary was right outside. She goes what I go? They're having my daughter. And she goes what kind of phone call did you just have? And, uh, but it was, that was another. It was, it was a no in my knower and it was just so exasperating. But that, her, her adoption, this was like another.
Speaker 6:I feel like everything in my life was trial by fire. Everything was a workout for faith. Uh, it was contested before. It was contested during. It was contested for 10 months after she was born, covid hit. So she's born in Florida, april of 2020. So everything shut down. So we're not allowed at the hospital, we're not allowed to go anywhere, like it was just, it was chaos, but she was born healthy. We brought her home. She's amazing.
Speaker 6:Um, but in that time, every three years, I'm, I'm pastoring. So at the two year mark of pastoring, justin comes and goes hey, all right, next year's three, am I looking for a new guy? Are you re-upping, you know? And so I was like I'll let you know. So I go pray. And I'm like, all right, give me, I'll give you two more, you know. And so I was like I'll let you know. So I go pray. And I'm like, all right, give me, I'll give you two more, you know. And so every every couple of years, he just kind of come be like, so what are we doing, you know? Cause he wanted, you know, time to fill the slot, you know, which makes perfect sense. And so, but in 2016, my wife and I at different times. 2016, my wife and I at at different times. She was actually in Thailand and she heard it.
Speaker 6:I was in a, at a church service in Detroit, and it was the first time we'd ever heard that we would live overseas. And I didn't want to live overseas. I wasn't really against it, but I just never. I wanted to travel and come back and forth. That's what I knew, that's what I thought, that's what I saw. I hadn't seen a lot of traveling overseas, I hadn't seen a lot of that, and so, but it was again. I just I knew it, I heard it, it was the moving in two years, get ready, so. But we sat on it, we sat on it and this was 2016, in 2019.
Speaker 6:In August, justin did it again. He did it like a month early, which for you goes all right. So what are you doing? And I go, I'm moving in two years. I said I think I think we're going to go live on the mission field, and he's like all right. And so I was like this is my two year notice, like you know. I mean, I guess this is what I do. You got some time, we'll figure it out. He's like all right. And so we we couldn't tell anybody. You know like his, you know it.
Speaker 6:It was a whole process of transitioning, finding the right person, and and pastor Matt Saperka took over the Eaton campus and it it's grown hundreds of people services, two services a week, where I mean COVID obviously messed things up a bit because everyone went crazy for that, but it was kooky. But we really started chewing and then we started looking, going okay, where are we going? What are we doing? Because I loved this and I turned out to be pretty good at this pastoring thing and I liked it and I enjoyed it and loved it. But I knew there was something else and I knew in me I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't stay here, I just couldn't, I couldn't do it, and so I had to tell people that and figure that out and walk through that process. But we, uh, we didn't know any.
Speaker 6:But but Elizabeth had Thailand on her heart and it seemed good to me. You know, that's what she heard. She, she had an encounter with God literally on a rooftop in Thailand years before. And he's like you're coming, and um, and so we knew we knew one organization. So I literally called them up and said hey, can I come see what you guys do and who you are? You know, and we I love my ignorance I had no idea who was even in charge. I knew one person from who worked for them and I set it all up and I called a buddy and I go hey, what are you doing next week? And he goes oh, you know, he's freelance for target. I go, you want to go to Thailand. And he's like sure, you know, like so it was great.
Speaker 6:So, literally nine days from my phone call, we were boarding a plane and he went with me and we wanted to check out this uh organization, life impact. And I remember the director. We met her on the first night and I'm not even awake. You know cause. We flew and run away, met her on the first night and then had she ended up getting sick and I didn't see her again till the last day of our trip. And so we're seeing stuff and it's crazy. I'd been to Thailand before on different trips, but I mean we're on the border of this country and they're rescuing kids out of human trafficking and we're seeing like there's a no man's land between Myanmar and Thailand and people live down there and I mean they're trafficked across this border. It was one of the hottest trafficking borders for kids like in the world. It was like the top five at this spot in this little stupid town and I mean it's some crazy stuff. We're at a.
Speaker 6:I remember going to a garbage dump where people lived and we had a Bible study in a hut in the garbage dump, you know, and getting to minister to people and just different stuff. And I met a lady and there was animists. And so they're, they're Buddhist and they're animists, so they believe spirits are everywhere and they, they worship some. So we ended up in a village where they were having bad crops and so they were sacrificing animals, uh to to spirits, to try and get them to do things. And I'm talking to people who, like, literally had things that would shake their house, like they had evil manifestations of stuff. Like this is very different.
Speaker 6:And so, uh, went through the week and I I got no idea, because I know me, I'm still like the 20, I might be at the 15% at this point. I got no idea. I know I'm going somewhere. So the last night I'm there I looked at the. I go, listen, don't count on me. I'd rather under promise and over deliver than vice versa. You know, and she had had enough people over the years, cause she'd been there for years, for years doing amazing stuff. You know, make big promises and totally fall through. So I wanted to be the opposite. So I was like, don't count, I'm going somewhere. I don't know if it's here, I don't think it's, I have no idea. So I got, I'm still, you know, two years, it's 2019. I don't know.
Speaker 6:Well, then COVID happened and everything shut down. It was hard to get ahold of her she's caring for, cause we didn't get shut down nearly as bad as some places. Like they had property with like 80 kids and families and amazing things they're doing and they weren't allowed to leave their property for three months. So they had to figure out school for these kids, they had to figure out church, they had to figure out food, like they had to figure out everything for these kids, having to live on this compound and couldn't leave for months at a time. And so I mean they're in, they're in a level of chaos that I couldn't even imagine and so we couldn't even connect.
Speaker 6:And so it's funny, because I wanted to go, I, we came back and it took me about a week of praying to go. Yeah, that's where we're going, and I was probably 40%, but I knew what 40% led to by now and Elizabeth was like, okay, let's go. But I mean I couldn't even remember the lady's last name. Like I just I live in ignorance and God bless me for it, but like I mean it was just like that's where we're supposed to go, that's all I know. So we're going to go there. But I mean I I announced to our staff at the church that we were moving to Thailand before I even got to talk to their director to see if I could. Um, because we were, we were just having such a hard time. They're in different time zone, life's great, like it was hard but we didn't even connect. And it was funny because when we first connected with her, she's like oh my gosh, she goes. Okay, I actually thought you were calling to tell me you weren't coming Cause I was so hard to get ahold of you know, and we've been playing tag for like a year and a half she goes. So I got to talk to people Like I've got to figure this out with my board, like before you move your whole family here, cause at the time, you know, I got a two-year-old and a five-year-old and I'm getting rid of my church and we're going. But she's like okay, let's figure this out. And I'm like all right.
Speaker 6:So November, we announced it to the church. We started a ministry called New Life Commission because you know, we had to figure out what are we going to do? How are we going to raise funds? How are we going to support? What's this going to look like? We started New Life Commission in March of 2022, handed off the church in April, sold everything we owned, bought an RV, lived in that for a month, took my kids on an out West tour, hit a deer with an RV which was an interesting adventure had a car breakdown in the middle of nowhere, which was also in fun, interesting adventure.
Speaker 6:Our van died, so the van I was hoping to sell. We had a minivan and an RV. I was hoping to sell the minivan to make money. I left it in a junkyard in Arizona because it just died and they told me nothing.
Speaker 6:And so, and we were in the middle of nowhere, nowhere, and so I opened my phone, found the closest landmark, ping, hit it and called, and the guy who answered I said hey, I'm stuck on this road. Can you come pick my family up? And he did, and it was so nice. Um, I like hitchhiking. I try not to do it with little kids, but I didn't have a lot of choice at the time. Uh, and so we, uh, we did he. He picked us up, he had a cooler of water, I mean, he was working at a race car track and he came and he took us, drove us there, dropped us off at the camper, drove me back and I sat and waited for the tow truck, like it was. It was awesome. I was like this is cool, I like randomly calling people.
Speaker 6:And so we moved and and I'm, I'm in Thailand. And life just gets a bit crazy because this is a different world and I know, I know we're, we're there and they working with human trafficking and I have my family and we're just trying to figure this thing out and I would say the three years we've been there almost three years the three years in Thailand have been easily the hardest three years of our lives. Now I I'll say that the hardest three years had nothing to do with ministry. The organization we worked with is doing ridiculous things that are awesome my opportunities to minister and see things and I got more wackadoodle stories about Jesus doing ridiculous things than I can count. I could do another five podcasts on just Jesus stories.
Speaker 6:But what was hard was family, because my, my kids started having a really hard time, um, jumping in and about six months in, uh, cause we're trying to get acclimated and we're it. It's a different world and I but I mean it's a different world nothing, there's, not a single thing. I kind of got addicted to Netflix, a little thing, a little bit, because at night that was the only familiar thing in my life. I'd like watch friends episodes to feel slightly normal, because everything in life was very different. We're on the border, they're uh, they're having civil war right across. So there's refugees everywhere we can. On the border they're uh, they're having civil war right across. So there's refugees everywhere.
Speaker 6:We can hear bombs going off from our house. We hear bombs going off from the land. I'm lying to my kids and telling them they're thunder and if you're watching this, please don't tell my kids that wasn't thunder, cause I don't think they know still. But literally like I'd be sitting in a kid's tent and things would be shaking, you know, and my kids would come and running in looking for the lightning, you know, and and so. But I mean it was. It was stressful. We could go days and weeks sometimes without talking to people.
Speaker 6:We, you know, that were Western, because there wasn't any Western people there. We, we eventually made some friends, but my one of my sons, we, he started he was going to a school. We tried to find him a school. They spoke English, but it was mostly refugee kids. He was in a class with kids that were usually two years older than him. He was the shortest, he was the only white kid, he was the only Western kid. We found out later he's getting picked on, um, and he just started having massive meltdowns, massive freak outs, massive things and I think I know, I think I know the basic principles of parenting.
Speaker 6:You know, and I was, I was nice and I was so grateful for my kids. I mean, we didn't take me nine months to have a baby, it took me nine years to have a kid. I was so grateful, so excited, but I, I just kind of we started raising like we knew. And my wife, thank God, through this whole thing she just had some gut instincts about things. Because before we would have said, oh, this is how we'll parent, you know you, before you have kids, you're the best parent on earth, like you know everything. And so we, we probably would have said we're on the same page about discipline, we're on the same page about this and how do you handle, and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 6:But there were things where I, I tried to mimic things I saw in other people's lives and and she, she was like no, and at the time I was like you, you know, submit, woman, you know, or whatever, like I, I thought she was so wrong, she was so right, cause the gift of God on the inside of her for our kids was screaming and she didn't even know what it was, because God put in us what those kids needed. Now, they came from crazy different backgrounds. They came from crazy you know, florida and Ohio, and I mean all different scenarios, different stories of how, how they even came to be, and they were all crazy, unique in their own way. Kids come downloaded with like tons of apps already. Like I was like, oh, I thought I had to like put everything, like you're a person like from the get-go. I had no idea, but she had something in her that was like no, no, no, there needs to be more nurture than we know. There needs to be more connection. Like there's got to be more nurture than we know. There needs to be more connection. Like there's, there's gotta be this thing.
Speaker 6:And so we're in Thailand, about six months in, and I start getting calls every day from her about our oldest son having really hard times. Kids have hard times, I know, but like he's breaking things, he's yelling for hours, he's being violent, she's having to separate the other kid, like he's having massive and it's it's starting to amp up to where we're having things daily and it doesn't make any sense and we don't know what to do. And we don't have a doctor there, we don't have a pediatrician. We don't know anyone there, we don't know anything about this. So we're driving five hours for a doctor from where we live, and so my wife just starts praying and researching and I don't know what to do because I'm a failure, because I'm here trying to do God's work and my family's falling apart and my wife's having heart like it's just, it's a mess. And so we, uh, my wife found out, okay, he could have this, and when she went through the, he could, he. He seems to have some strong ADHD tendencies, he has some ODD, he has some, you know, we didn't know. And so finally we found somebody in a city called Chiang Mai and we got some diagnosis. He got some testing done, but I mean, this is seven months in and we got no idea. We finally got him in front of somebody and said like, hey, what's going on? And so they gave him a few diagnosis. We had a therapist that was working with us and and really, but they just kind of said, okay, we can try some a little bit of medications, but honestly, like you're just going to have to figure this out.
Speaker 6:So, literally over this process, everything I thought I knew about parenting, everything I believed, everything I thought was going to be normal. Everything I thought, you know, like just how I would discipline, how I punish, and then how my kids would listen, because I listened it was. I was wrong about everything because my basically my son's brain got wired in a manner that he is living in fight or flight always. His lower brain and his upper brain doesn't always connect the dots, and so your lower brain is controlling your, your, your, your body. And so I see, so I'm walking on a path, I see something, it's a snake. Instantly, before I even register it's a snake, my heart starts pumping. It's pushing blood to my muscles, it's doing like, my body starts to react and then eventually it gets to my upper brain and goes oh no, that's a stick. Calm down, you're okay. His doesn't always make the correlation, so he goes on red alert about things that don't even make sense and then has really hard times.
Speaker 6:Well then there's two other kids who are in the midst of this, because we ended up having a homeschool, so my wife's got three kids. One of them's going crazy. The other two are learning how to go crazy because that's their model and that's what they're seeing. And so we, we really I mean we, we didn't know what to do. We felt stuck, we felt lost, we felt like failures, we had no idea what was happening.
Speaker 6:And and my wife, too ridiculous, I mean she, I'm a hundreds of hours of finding books, finding podcasts, and for her she would, she would pray, but she said I don't, I don't have time to sit for an hour and seek God. I can't go pray and fast in the woods and find an answer. I got two minutes before somebody's screaming I need, I need, I need help now. And so she would tell me stories about, like you know, she prayed, she literally I need help, jesus. And like that afternoon she'd see something on Instagram and it would, you know. Then it would find a doctor or a mom group or something. She'd find a podcast and she'd find a book and she'd find that like it was Jesus through media in so many ways, because she was, I mean, she's dead, she's like I don't know what, everything I supposed to do doesn't work and everything.
Speaker 6:And then every you know we're in the foreign country, so we look like crazy people anyway, because we're stared at. Everywhere we go, people walk up and take pictures with my kids because they're just white and cute, you know. But then to have them being crazy and loud and demonstrative in a culture that's very reserved. You know, you feel like you're neon sign all the time everywhere you go, um at one. At one point it got so bad that literally he, he crawled out of the window in the car, got on top of the car while she's at a stop sign and is screaming, running up and down on top of the car and it's high enough that she couldn't even reach him. So I got two kids crying in the car because they're scared. She's outside trying to convince the screaming kid to get off the car while traffic is around her. And this is 20 plus minutes and that's traumatic for everyone, that's traumatic for the kids in the car, that's traumatic for my wife, that's traumatic for my son. Like I mean we were just getting beat up and so I mean it, it was, it was really, it was a mess and uh, and we didn't know what to do. And so we're we're trying to do play therapy, but we got to drive. So I start driving five hours monthly for my kid to go to a play therapist. We start trying some different medications, seeing if that's working, see if they're taking the edges off and and so we we've gone through that.
Speaker 6:But in in the summer I just started having some wise people Justin, who I love he literally calls me and I he's not someone I talked to a ton. I talked to him a little bit, but he's not someone I talked to a ton. He's not someone I update. I got, I got some friends I talked to. I got some people I try and talk to, but we had no, we went from a community here that spoiled my kids rotten and love them. I mean, oh my gosh, during COVID, covid Easter I had we live next to in West Manchester, next to a church People came in cars and did a car parade through the parking lot of the church and threw candy to my kids as they stood in our yard for Easter. Like I lost my mind. I cried, like like so spoiled. And then the next year, so it goes. So when's our parade? That's not normal. You have no idea.
Speaker 6:But it was. That was his response to having no community, no friends, no one to talk to. I mean, there was the organization I worked with. There was two Westerners, two, two, two women, the founder, and then another gal who's worked there for like 11 years, but I mean their, their lives were. I mean they're like 70 kids they're responsible for, and then the ones they're reaching out to, and I mean just the amazing things they're doing, but I mean their plates are quite full, you know, but they're also they're they're not married, they're not moms in that sense, you know that different scenario, different dynamics and and uh, and so we just had nobody.
Speaker 6:And so I get a call from Justin and he's like what the heck are you doing? And I don't even know how he knew as much as he knew, but he's like your family is literally drowning and fights with my wife had escalated, like we hated life. We just we hated life. We hated each other At points, we hated everything and we're failing. And I'm on the ministry and I'm on the mission field and you know, one day I'm hating my wife, the next day I'm in a hut praying for a Muslim. You know, like this is my life and it was. It was a mess and there was a lot of grace, but, man, just the level of depression, the level of feeling lost, the level of everything. So we both started counseling I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm on the zoom chat with this Nigerian woman in England for counseling, you know and uh, cause we both realized there was some things. So the thing that our kids did was brought out all the unhealthy things that were in us that we didn't know because in the States they were just at the bottom and we never got shook up enough to do. I mean miscarriages and infertility and terrible, like all that stuff didn't shake up this as much as as that did.
Speaker 6:And so we're, we're in Thailand and this is trial by fire to another level, and um, and, and I wasn't ready, all this other preparation, I wasn't ready and I think the thing that I probably the thing I know that was my worst thing was I got so busy and distracted I wasn't doing the things I knew, like I had let things in my own relationship slip with Jesus. I had let prayer time because I'm so busy with chaos. I took things took a back burner that shouldn't have to survive and I'm literally in the devil's playground as much as possible. And I don't I don't have the armor on, like I'm not as much as I should have could have. You know, I mean there are literally statues and idols of demons at places we would go, I mean like a statue of a winged being with fangs and talons, sitting on a throne of skulls, like I'm like, oh, that's the devil, like how do you not see that? You know, and we're worshiping this? You know, like that's where I lived and so, uh, I mean we, just to know that everything was an attack, was insane, like, but not even thinking that we're just trying to survive. I just need my kids to be quiet, I just need my kids to listen, I just need us not to break another TV because we're angry and we threw the remote at it and it, you know I'm. I'm on TV number five right now, which has a plexiglass shield in front of it. Um, like it, it was chaos, and so we.
Speaker 6:He calls me. He's like what are you doing? He goes, move here, come tomorrow and I will, we'll launch a church and you pastor it, I'll buy you a house. I mean, god, I love this man. He's amazing, but like, and he was like come tomorrow. I know you, you can pastor, I'll give you a church tomorrow. Just get back here, take care of your family. You're drowning.
Speaker 6:And so that I mean I considered I was like okay, so we had to have a real conversation Like should we leave? Can we leave, do we leave? You know what's this look like? And for some reason that was a jarring enough phone call that it kind of woke me up a little bit, cause I was trying to survive. My wife wasn't surviving, she was communicating to me that I'm not going to make it here the best she could. And I was so lost in my own failure and ignorance and not knowing what to do and then feeling the pressure to be productive on the mission field, because I have people who are supporting me to be here, that I really just felt stuck. I mean, I just really didn't know what to do. And then that phone call really helped jar my brain awake to going. Oh, we need to go something.
Speaker 6:And so we made a decision to move to Chiang Mai, which was the town where, like, the doctors were, and it was about five hours away and it was at least a bigger town where we could. There were some churches there that spoke English, there were some schools there that spoke English, there was resources there, and so we could try. So we, we said, all right, we're going to go. We, we found a house, we, we bargained, and we, we went from a two year lease. We said we're going to go. We, we found a house, we, we bargained, and we, we went from a two-year lease. We said we're going to do one year because it's our experiment, cause if this doesn't help, my son, next step is the States. You know, we're we're to figure this out.
Speaker 6:And so we, we moved in and end of September, so October of this year, we moved to Chiang Mai and so, and it was, it was fast and it was weird and it was, it was frustrating and it was. My kids were excited and mad all at the same time because they had made a couple little friends and, like the last three months we were in this border town, so annoying. We, we actually things started picking up and it started going kind of well with things. Like we did play dates with a couple of kids we met and, like you know, but we, we, it wasn't, it wasn't enough, it wasn't what we needed, it wasn't this community and support, because everyone, if you're there, you're there for a reason. You're not just there, and if you're there for a reason, I mean these are people running big missions, organizations, big big things that are rescuing and feeding and help, like I mean they're doing crazy stuff and so, uh it, it, you know everybody's busy just beyond belief. And so we, we, we moved and so we've been now in Chiang Mai, uh, since October. Um, we live there. Now my kids started us.
Speaker 6:We found a school. My kids really, like it's a smaller school. Uh, they kind of are academically a little bit behind just because of all the giant. They went to a school for a while. We did some homeschool for a while. We've had so many transitions, um, but it was a smaller, like private, you know international school and uh, it was. It's really expensive. I never had to pay for school. It was crazy, um, but it is what it is. I mean anything, anything in English, is expensive. Uh, it's really weird, cause I can get like, pad Thai for a dollar, which is really good, but like a box of Cheerios is $10 cause, uh, it's imported.
Speaker 3:So everything imported is really expensive Um so let me stop you for a second.
Speaker 6:Yeah, cause I've been talking for like an hour and a half and no one has interrupted.
Speaker 3:It's awesome. You're good man. Did you expect anything different?
Speaker 6:Yes.
Speaker 3:What'd you expect? I mean, you're going into the devil's playground.
Speaker 6:I expected I was a guy who babysat once, so I thought I knew how to be a parent Because I expected I'd done all these mission trips. I knew what it looked like and I didn't. And then I didn't expect all the things that came up with my son. I thought he's a kid, he'll figure it out. You know, we can play in the jungle. I mean, how great is this going to be? I mean, we're having an adventure. Won't you think this is an adventure? No, he didn't think it was an adventure. He thought I left all my friends, you sold all my toys, I lost all my family and nobody here speaks English. Like every week, isaiah or Ezra asked when are we moving back? Can we go home now? We'd have to go renew our visas. Please don't renew our visas. Let them kick us out. I mean, every week somebody's talking to me about leaving and hating it and wanting to go and Thailand's horrible and like I mean they're, they're harping on it, and so I I guess I expected a little bit of that, but I didn't expect I didn't. I didn't see this.
Speaker 6:I was totally ignorant and that's probably my fault, you know, but I was. I was genuinely ignorant because ministry was easy. Ministry is. I mean there's ministry opportunities like gangbusters and it's amazing and it's hard work and but I mean that is so comfortable for me and I'm good at it, you know, and it's Jesus and he was doing amazing things and we had great opportunities. The organization we were, I mean it was just awesome. But he was opening different doors as we moved to Chiang Mai for kind of things for us to do on our own and it was, it was great.
Speaker 6:But the family stuff was hard and I didn't know. And so my, my board. I have a board for the ministry, you know, and they set things like salary and they take care of that kind of stuff and help me do it. You're not going to make it. So move to Chiang Mai and take six months and do as little as possible ministry-wise to keep your visa and figure out your family, and they're like you are going to hate that because you'd rather be productive. You're going to hate that because you're going to feel like a loser but you won't make it there two more years if you don't get this right. I'd rather see you there for 10 years, 20 years, than see you burn out and lose your family in two and so, uh, and it was pretty unanimous against me in that um and and because they're, they're great men who love me and my family, and so they have great wisdom.
Speaker 6:And so we did, we listened, we, we transitioned with the organization we were working with and and kind of handed over things that I was doing so I wasn't having to commute every week and be gone for days. You know, cause my kid, every time I was gone they're freaking out. Uh, cause they're. They live in my oldest lives in like perpetual fear of something it doesn't even have to be rational, but like it's, it's coming out and it's coming out loud, it's coming out big. But, uh, we, we started him in some some therapies play therapy and occupational therapy. We, we had some neighborhood friends, we may, you know, we had some kids. So we started school, really helped.
Speaker 6:And, and what was weird was cause people were like, hey, is it going great? Now, have you ever, like, played it? You know, you go play basketball with some people and you're going, you're going, you're going, you're going, you're going, you're working hard, it's great. And then, like, you sit down and like, 30 minutes later you're like, oh, my God, I'm really tired and I hurt myself and I like it's not until you rest that you start feeling the pain, like that was us. So last six months it's almost like we didn't know how hurt we were where we lived. Like probably top two mistakes of my life in ministry and marriage was I should have moved my family a year earlier Cause I, I, I damaged my wife. She was in hell and didn't know what to do.
Speaker 6:And I wasn't there and I wasn't helping and I was stupid, and so that was I mean. So we've spent the last six months just like finding wounds, just checking ourselves, you know, doing things. And so we're recognizing, okay, jesus is Jesus, he can do things and people matter. And we still do amazing, we still get to do incredible things. And you know, I, I, I could talk forever about stuff we do. And, uh, I have a July. I was, I was going to invite you where I have. I have a fundraiser thing in July that I'll talk about ministry stuff.
Speaker 6:But here it's like I'm a dad before I'm a minister, I'm a husband before I'm a dad, and so I've had to reshift every priority to go how do I help my wife, how do I help my kids, how do I love them, what's best for them? And so we've weighed and talked and we've looked at what it would look like coming back to the States and what's best for them. And so we've weighed and talked and we've looked at what it would look like coming back to the States and everything in me cringes because that's a failure In my mind. That's a failure In my mind. That's wrong and in my mind I'd hate that, because I'm still scared of failing, but I realize I'm not. I was with a counselor. I was 41 and I'm with a counselor and we're talking and he said this statement. It was the first time he goes wow, that school system really failed you. And I just started to cry because I had never once had the thought that it wasn't my fault and all those years I assumed it was me. I assumed I'm the prop, like I just were. Men, we take responsibility, we take blame, and the idea that it wasn't my fault, that I couldn't read and that the dominoes that that led to in my life and my self-image and my whole identity was insane and it really so. I mean I'm still gosh, I'm two steps into the mile journey, but like, okay, I'm not a failure, it's not my fault, I love my kids and I'm loving my kids where they're at, not apologizing for where they're at. And it's hard sometimes because I mean we're here in the States now and this is harder than there, because if I'm at Walmart and my son starts screaming, every white person's looking at me and in their mind, if they would, just why can't you just be a better parent? Why can't you just be a you know why can't you just and I'm like you have no idea who this kid, because I did that. You just need more discipline. You just need to take better care. You just need to blah, blah, blah. Take better care. You just need to blah, blah, blah and and. But I'm like. So I mean the, the weight of feeling judged everywhere we go, the weight of feeling like a terrible parent because my kids don't behave like somebody else's kids, or because I'm I'm negotiating with my son, because I know what it looks like if I, I mean we.
Speaker 6:We drove back from Gatlinburg Pigeon Forge two days ago and it took us nine hours and it's a five-and-a-half-hour trip. And one of the reasons I had to pull over because one of my kids was having like a full meltdown for 45 minutes, trying to break everything he could get his hands on in the car and we had to go off the highway. Take him out of the car Now. He was mad about a download and it was as simple. Off the highway. Take him out of the car, now he didn't. He was mad about a download and it was as simple as a download. Like he wanted to download a new game. We said no and it spiraled into chaos of screaming and fighting and breaking things, trying to break things in the car and like I mean full on, you know.
Speaker 6:And if you never, it's like, well, you just need to be more disciplined. This kid lives in fear his whole life and at one point I was the thing he was most afraid of. Like I found him in the fetal position one time under his bathroom sink, hiding from me, crying because he was scared I'd spank him. Now I I wasn't like an angry, like I had my stuff, like I never spanking, like I had like rules for discipline and I was pretty good at it. But I'm like, like you are, this is wrong. Like I I promised him that day. You know, watching my son draw pictures of a big scary monster and knowing finding out that's me, I'm the big scary monster. I'm not a bad guy, like I'm not an abusive, but I'm scary. And so, uh, I mean we just I had to change so much because my son has to feel safe long before he has to learn to be obedient. He has to know he's loved before he's ever going to learn to listen.
Speaker 6:And we're starting that journey, almost new every day, and it's crazy and we do it. You know, traveling and going different places pretty much in the least conducive environments possible. So I don't know if that makes me crazy or wackadoodle, but like that's our journey and thankfully we have some, some wonderful people that are helping us. My wife has spent so much time finding groups of people that get it. She's on like Facebook groups and and she's in some mom groups on different things, just with kids with similar needs and similar. Just because you can talk and it's like anything.
Speaker 6:If you haven't experienced it, you know it's hard for you to get it, you know. But I mean, after we had a miscarriage and people knew, and after adoption fails and people knew, like after we couldn't get dealt with infertility I mean the people that came out of the woodwork who would talk to my wife you know I dealt with that and then she would get to talk to them and connect with them and help them. And we've helped people with adoptions and like it's been cool. So out of our struggle has come so many great things. And so even with this I mean with my wife is now she's talking to people about medications and therapies and my kids are acting like this how do you do? And you know she's, she's navigating that while she's still meeting with people and they're trying to pour into her because their kids are grown and they've gone through this, and so it's the thing we suck at is we don't talk like guys don't talk nearly as much.
Speaker 3:You're right, and that's that's a big reason why we do this yeah, so that you know men out there can hear these conversations of everything you've just said. You know the challenges that we all face raising a family, the challenges with our work, the challenges with our faith. You know we're constantly tested and pushed and pulled and you don't know how to handle that right. And so what better way to do it than to hear your story, to hear ben's story, my story, to talk about all these things, because you never know the challenge of someone's face and just like you talk about you know you your son acts up in the grocery store and and you know everybody's initial reaction, but they don't know the story.
Speaker 6:They don't and I don't. I don't blame them, I mean you know everybody's, everybody's, everybody, and it's fine, but it's it's having the freedom sometimes to find relationships to where you can be open, you can be vulnerable, you can be. You know, I sat on last night I sat on a good friend's porch and we just he's how you doing, you know, and I'm like, well, my life is chaos. You know, it's a nice dumpster fire going down the river. You know like, and he just is encouraging me about my wife and relationship, like he's just pushing on me and talking to me and loving me and encourage, like we need that and we don't like to cause.
Speaker 6:We're supposed to be bulletproof, but I just came to the end of me, fully in everything, and uh, and I couldn't do it. I mean, I got to the place. I I so many times in life I've gotten to the place, you know, in pregnancy I got to the place where I literally I gave all the money I had to adopt a kid. I've been trying to get pregnant for seven and a half years. I've been to doc like I literally couldn't do anything else outside of going and stealing a kid to have. You know, I was at the end of my rope and that's a horribly scary place to get to in in things where you're supposed to be able to. You know I'm a man, I should be able to make a baby and you know I'm a I'm a dad, I should be able to figure this out.
Speaker 6:Well, I am figuring it out. It just looks different than anything I wanted and I have to figure it out one day at a time, and I don't get to know what tomorrow holds and it sucks, but it's amazing because the, the grace and the I mean we had a really rough morning yesterday and then literally met some people at the Eaton pool and and it was I mean I I had this moment of just relax and it was fun. My kids are playing like it's like a different world and learning how to make the most out of those moments so that I could survive the next moment is is just so important. And having conversations like I did later that night you know we were coming home from the pool, there was a prayer thing and you know I was going to have to leave in like 10 minutes after getting home from the pool, and I know I'm going to stick her with bedtime and I'm going to stick her with feet Like I'm going to dump it and she just goes.
Speaker 6:She goes going. There is more important than anything else we're going to do tonight. Just go, like you need it, I need, like I'll figure it out, you know, and she obviously did and life happened and it's fine. But like it's fine and um, but like okay, remembering where I need what source and priority, like basics are, are easy to get away from but they're crucial to live by.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you, uh, man, pretty powerful story, you know, and we didn't even really get into all the things you're doing. You know specifically, kind of like what we talked about yesterday with with the new life commission, and that's okay, because I think you know God had put it on your heart to tell you know what your family has went through, what you and your wife have went through for a reason today, because the people that may think that they know you and may think that they know your, your wife and your kids and and those smiles and that jovial spirit, you know, um know that now they're going to know life's just as real for you guys as it is for them.
Speaker 3:And sorry, honey, you know everybody faces challenges and adversity, and that that's that's the true, real world.
Speaker 6:It, it. Yes, we, we live too much Facebooked.
Speaker 6:We live too, much in everyone else's highlight reel. And my wife's amazing because she'll post. She won't post meltdowns, but she'll post challenges. She'll post conversations, she'll post things that cause she really doesn't want to paint the picture that life is, cause you know, on the other side we literally have social media Like my family keeps up with us, like we're posting, she puts stuff all the time, but she she'll put things about ADHD. She'll put things about child development, brain development. Like she'll post things about things cause she's trying to give, as best she can, a real picture for as much as people can handle, Cause real makes people uncomfortable too.
Speaker 3:Well and somebody may see that out there that that is an expert in a certain field that may say, hey, I got something that can help help this kid, it's something that can help this family, and so that that's important. How can people support your mission?
Speaker 6:Um, new life commissioncom is probably the easiest way where. On Facebook, new life commission, on Instagram, new life commission, if you're in the um Dayton area, july 10th we're having a fundraiser at Gatherings on the Green in Lewisburg, 630 to 8, I think, or 6 to 7, 6 to 730. And Ryan and Rose is going to be there and they'll perform and there'll be dessert, coffee, silent auction. You know raffle stuff. I brought a bunch of cool things from Thailand we're going to raffle off, so you just buy a raffle ticket. But I'm going to do presentation, share more about ministry stuff and stuff we got coming on. But go to the website, see what we're doing and if you, uh, if you want to support us, you know, I mean, if that's on your heart or support somebody, do something.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you know you're doing amazing work. I mean you. This whole podcast is about going through the fire. I think, your whole life you've went into the fire, and it's amazing because you know you. You talk about what you see in your mind as a failure. But where do we learn the most in life? Oh yeah, it's through those failures.
Speaker 6:I'm a genius.
Speaker 3:Ben, you got anything else to close this out?
Speaker 4:No, I just the big thing, the vulnerability part that you talk about and how you talk about your struggles and everything like just every time somebody says something and they open up and they're vulnerable. I feel like everybody that listens gets a little bit more vulnerable. You know, and everybody, one of the biggest things with the pastor at our church a while ago he had like a stress was weighing heavy on him and they made him take like a year sabbatical and get therapy and everything. Seeing that happen, everybody thinks pastors and everybody has it so easy, right. Well, you just come Sunday and all no, like you're getting everybody's dumping, like the hard times, Like, hey, you need to pray for them.
Speaker 4:You need to pray for them. You need to go to the hospital. This person's dying, you need to comfort their family. You need to do this. Then you add on a whole other mission field. You know now you're going to people that don't speak your language. You're doing and I think that a lot of times people don't, I don more. I just can't thank you enough for being vulnerable, though I mean, your story is absolutely amazing.
Speaker 3:It is. Yeah, you're amazing, elizabeth, I know you're listening. You're amazing.
Speaker 6:She wins. Yes, yeah.
Speaker 3:It's. It's an amazing story and I you know, we obviously know there's more to come and more to share, and so we wish you the best while you're here in the States, and certainly the travel back to Thailand and kind of the new, the new life and the new city, that that's there and what's to come, and we'll certainly keep you all in our prayers. Appreciate it.
Speaker 6:Thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:Yeah, man, thanks for thanks for coming on here and telling your story and thanks for yesterday that was. That was good too. So, hey, everybody, you got to share this. There's no doubt somebody out there can be impacted by Jeff's story, his family story, and so be sure to share it like and do all those things and go out and be tempered.
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