BeTempered
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 63 – A Nurse, A Mother, A Survivor: Susan’s War Behind the Smile
How do you find strength when your world is crumbling from the inside out?
In this powerful episode of BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Susan Preble, whose story of perseverance through hidden trauma, heartbreak, and healing will leave you breathless and forever changed.
Susan’s journey began with tragedy—when she was just 18 months old, her family car was T-boned, leaving her mother in a coma and shifting the course of her life. As she grew, the trauma deepened: childhood sexual abuse, isolation from scoliosis treatment during her teens, and a painful family move that triggered a years-long battle with anorexia.
But her most painful battle came later—a 20-year marriage to a man struggling with severe pornography addiction. Susan shares how she lived in two realities: the public image of a functioning family and the private chaos of emotional pain. “I often felt like an imposter in my own life,” she confesses, navigating life as a registered nurse, a cancer survivor, and a mother of two—all while her marriage unraveled behind closed doors.
Through every chapter, Susan’s faith became both a lifeline and a battlefield. She doesn’t offer easy answers—only raw honesty about what it means to question, wrestle, and cling to hope in the darkest of seasons. “It wasn’t just about knowing Christ came and died,” she explains. “It became about a personal relationship.”
Whether you’re navigating addiction in your family, carrying unspoken pain, or struggling to reconcile your faith with suffering, Susan’s story is a testament to the power of bringing hidden wounds into the light—because once exposed, they lose their power to define us.
Listen now at www.betempered.com or find us on all major platforms.
You’ll be challenged. You’ll be moved. And you won’t walk away the same.
Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my dad, Dan. He owns Catron's Glass.
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Speaker 3:Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.
Speaker 4:Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.
Speaker 3:We're your hosts, Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives. This is Be Tempered. What's up everybody. Welcome to the Be Tempered podcast, episode number 63.
Speaker 3:63, rolling right along. Today's guest is someone whose story is both heartbreaking and inspiring. Today's guest is someone whose story is both heartbreaking and inspiring A true testament of resilience, faith and the strength it takes to overcome life's unseen battles. Susan Preble grew up facing enormous challenges. In her teenage years she was uprooted from the only home she knew, moved to a new town and, in the same season, battled anorexia and was diagnosed with scoliosis. But Susan's story doesn't end there. She walked through the complexities of a marriage and motherhood, including a 20-year marriage to a man battling severe pornography addiction While raising two young boys. She fought emotional and spiritual battles that many can't even imagine. Emotional and spiritual battles that many can't even imagine.
Speaker 3:A quick disclaimer this episode touches on sensitive topics, especially around addiction and its impact on marriage and family. It may not be suitable for younger listeners, but it's a conversation filled with hope and encouragement for anyone walking through similar struggles or searching for healing. Today, susan is a registered nurse known for her energy, compassion and wisdom. She carries unseen scars but radiates perseverance, redemption and the healing power of faith. Susan, welcome to the Be Tempered podcast.
Speaker 5:Thank you very much.
Speaker 3:We're excited to have you.
Speaker 3:I know you are extremely excited to be here.
Speaker 3:No, you and I met through some mutual friends and you know, it seems like every time I meet with someone, they always say I don't have a story.
Speaker 3:I don't know why they said I had a story and you sat down and said the same thing and I think it was. I don't know why they said I had a story and you sat down and said the same thing and I think it was. I don't know, an hour, maybe two hours later I was like are you kidding me, susan? You have an unbelievable story and I'm gracious for you to come in here because I know that's a challenging seat to sit in and I know there's anxiety. It's a challenging seat to sit in and I know there's anxiety, um, but I hope, as you have reflected on the questions and the conversations that you and I had and that you've had with many of your friends and your boys, uh, and your husband, that you recognize that your story will help someone out there dealing with many of the same situations that you have dealt with and are are, you know, continue to deal with in your life. So keep that all in mind as you tell your story, um, because it's powerful.
Speaker 5:Yeah, thank you, I do think. I think that is one of the problems in general with people is they? They don't think that what they have endured is is that important, and so we don't share. You know, we don't. We don't get that what they have endured is that important and so we don't share yeah.
Speaker 5:You know we don't get that out there and there's probably a lot of people that will listen to this that have weathered similar things quietly and they just don't think it's that big of a deal, you know life's hard Get on with it type of thing.
Speaker 5:So, yeah, I definitely felt that way and even preparing for this, I felt like I'm not really sure that this is going to rock anybody's world. But a friend of mine this morning, when I was texting people and saying hey, please be praying at this time, said somebody needs to hear this. And so, you know, because my prayer was, please empty myself of me, because one of my weaknesses is, you know, making sure it plants, making sure I look good, making sure I sound right, and then all of a sudden, like where's the spirit? Right, he's just sitting there watching me ride my horse over the cliff, you know. So, um, yeah, I mean that that was a real encouragement of just all right, holy spirit. Do what you want to do. Yeah, just all right, holy. Spirit, do what you want to do.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 5:It's amazing.
Speaker 3:It's amazing that power for sure, especially when you, when you just let go and you give it all up. I, you know, past couple of weeks I've went through a big transformation with my faith, with some journeys that I have went on, and so that's where I'm. I'm trying. I'm the same way as you. You try to control everything. You try to put on this facade of everything's okay and, um, it's okay that it's not right, and it's powerful when you share that. So how we like to start every podcast is we want to start from the beginning. We want to hear your story growing up and then we'll get into your adulthood and talk about all those things. So talk about where you grew up and what life was like for you as a young kid.
Speaker 5:All right, um grew up in a seven people in my family, five kids and I was number four out of five. My father worked with Rostrum Prima but it got transferred around a lot in our younger years and by the time I was born we were in Michigan and at that point my two older brothers, my sister and I were all within about five years of each other and my parents' plan had been to just have this gaggle of kids. But my mom and dad and I, when we lived in Michigan I was about 18 months old, were in a really bad car accident that took my mom out of commission for several months. She was in a coma and you know the report to my dad was if she comes out of this, you may have a fifth child here. You know to raise type of thing. So that slowed their whole progress down of having children and it was five years later that my youngest brother was born. So at that point then we moved to Iowa and for two years and then Pennsylvania.
Speaker 5:So by the time I was seven, that's where we were, that's where we landed and those were kind of all of our growing up years, age seven to 16, you know I was there and you know great family, mom and dad were a team. You know I was there and you know great family, mom and dad were a team. You know Discipline was never held back. You know you make a decision to do something that has consequences, you're going to pay the consequences. You know, pretty certain we had the meanest parents in the world, you know type of thing. But they really really focused on our faith and our family and qualities about people that they felt were important Honesty, being part of your community, helping in your community. Not everything's worth a dime. Sometimes it's just worth your time. You know, and my parents were very involved with things. Dad was always involved with the Lions Club, which was a service organization then or you know whatever. We spent a lot of Christmas Eves in very smoky nursing homes with vets, you know, sitting on laps and coming home smelling like cigarettes and you know. But that was really important that they invested that in us so that we would understand what. What strengthens a community and what makes a difference. And probably Well, I would say definitely.
Speaker 5:You know you learn those things from your parents and you see them walk them out. You don't necessarily do the right thing, you know, at the right time. So there were a lot of bumps in the road there and I think, no matter what how safe your family is, there's the outside world and things are going to happen to you that your family may be completely unaware of. And so while that time frame of the 1970s was a fantastic time to grow up, I mean you know your mom said summer vacation goodbye at eight o'clock in the morning and don't come back until six.
Speaker 5:I've got things to do. And you just took off. You know I mean you were just gone. You know you may walk five miles to a pool or go riding across a Creek and go up a Hill, and you know I mean things that you know today you really can't let your kids just disappear like that you know, Um, so it was really a special time, but, um, and I treasure it, and um, my, my siblings and I were close, even my youngest brother, even though he was.
Speaker 1:we always called him kind of the afterthought you know, you're just kind of in everybody's way now you know.
Speaker 5:But all of those, all of those challenges good and bad, you know, I think pulled us together even more as a family and you knew, even if you couldn't share everything that was happening outside of the family circle with people, you knew you had their love and their support and I think sometimes it got you through those secret things that you went through that you wouldn't share with anybody else because that was a safe place at least to go to, type of thing. So super, super thankful that I had that safety net and that they instilled those things in me how long did it take your mom to recover?
Speaker 3:Did she fully recover from that accident?
Speaker 5:You know I was 18 months old when it happened, so I would have never been able to tell you I noticed a difference. My father would always say you know there was a shift. She was just different after that, not worse, not better, just her personality changed. I mean, she had pretty traumatic brain injury and you know, one of the things that happened in the accident was we, we drove this, we always drove VW vans. My dad was six foot seven, so you know he just needed space, so that was always what we drove.
Speaker 5:And we were going through an intersection and got T-boned. Somebody ran a red light and the van was pushed up against a telephone pole. Both my parents came out of the car. Apparently, I was ejected and the van then fell on top of my dad and he said you talk about superhuman strength. He said I couldn't breathe. So he said, every once in a while, just muster enough strength and push that up enough that I could take a breath and I'd let it back down. Well, my mom was on the other side being crushed every time. He did that. You know he didn't know that. I mean he didn't walk around with guilt on that necessarily, but you know it was it was. It made a lot of her injuries a lot worse during that time.
Speaker 5:So yeah, I think I don't want to say specific, but I would say she was in a coma for a solid six weeks and then probably had six weeks of recovery before she could come home. And then even when she came home, she had to learn how to tie her shoes and how to use the bathroom appropriately and things like that. And here she had four kids under the age of six, right, but for quite some time we were all farmed out. Dad said, you know, the community and the family and the church just just cloaked him and, you know, took care of us. We were all different places, brought meals and things like that. And you know, he shared with me very vulnerably. Once he would be on his drive home and then, like, highway signs are a little bit more basic than they are now, so you might be driving along and it would just say Texas, you know, iowa, you know, and then you get more specific. But he would say all I have to do is just turn my wheel to the right and I'm gone. You know, I mean never did. But you know that it was difficult for him to to face all of that and not know what his future with her looked like and what was he going to do with these kids and so.
Speaker 5:But it was a long journey for her. You know her mother, my dad's sister, her sister I mean a lot of people were sister her sister. I mean a lot of people were there for her for a while. They spent a lot of time going through albums to remind her of that's. When this one was born she had some lack of memory of she knew we were her kids, but the details of things that you remember about your kids being born and stuff weren't there. So, yeah, so it was a long recovery and my dad would say that when she became pregnant with my youngest brother, um, that was the healing, the final healing type of thing, like that was her resurrection child. You know what I mean. That was her.
Speaker 5:I remember this one from here on you know, Um, but yeah, I mean, she's not really suffered from anything physically as a result of that. It was a fairly miraculous healing. Yeah, what an amazing story she actually was coded and they pronounced her dead at one point and she had a spontaneous heartbeat as they were pulling her off everything. And she's got a deeper story to that which I'm not free to share. Sure, sure yeah. Yeah, so life changing for her as well.
Speaker 3:Yeah, for everybody. So you. So you did a lot of traveling around the different states as as a young girl, and then you're in Pennsylvania and then you make another move right, it's a family. Yeah. This one was a little different for you.
Speaker 5:It was hugely different and in my introduction you mentioned scoliosis. That was actually diagnosed in Pennsylvania, so that had happened at the end of eighth grade. I don't know if you guys remember when they checked for that, but you all go into a room and you bend over and they look at your back and I was the kid that they said you know, go to the left. You know it's like, what's that mean? No one else is going to the left. So, um, you know, went to an orthopedic doctor and diagnosed with scoliosis and the treatment at that time was uh, bracing and um, but they were pretty much at the early stages of that, so it was kind of a one brace fits all. And, um, they put me in that and said you know, you're in this in 22 hours a day until you stop growing, and that felt like a life sentence. Here I'm getting ready to go into high school, right? You know this cute little eighth grade girl was already getting attention from boys, you know. And and you know, life was over you know, type of thing.
Speaker 5:But yeah, um, yeah, it was a really difficult. That was a difficult transition on me. Um, I had always identified with, with the physicality of myself, um, that always brought on attention, you know, and so I kind of felt like that was where my worth was. And by that time I had had, um, I had been molested by a neighbor boy as a 10 or 11 years old and then molested by an older gentleman that I spent considerable time with going places. So those two events and the whole bracing thing, you know, I mean it was just really challenging to deal with that. But again, I had the safety of my family, not that they knew those things, but I could be there and it was normal, you know. So then, yeah, we find out dad's being transferred to Richmond, indiana, which my parents are thrilled about. They grew up in Indiana. This was coming back home from them. They had done this St Louis, cincinnati, michigan, iowa, pennsylvania, you know and they were finally coming home.
Speaker 5:The huge big shift for me was that my two oldest brothers at that point were both in college and so they were staying in Pennsylvania and my sister was in her senior year was my junior year in high school and we were moving in February. So the decision had been made and she had been given the choice you can come with us and finish there, you can finish here. She was coming to school in Indiana to go to college at Hanover. So you know, she had already, I think, been decided at that point and she decided to stay with one of her best friends and so this family of seven became a family of four. I had this younger brother who I'd never paid all that much attention to other than to. You can sleep in my bed if you go downstairs and get me some cookies first. That was his role.
Speaker 5:And I had my first serious high school boyfriend who, of course, I was going to marry. So how in the world was I going to leave him, you know? So there were just these and it happened really fast. I mean, by the time they shared it with me it was a matter of weeks before, you know, we left and I did not.
Speaker 5:I did not handle it well and you know I had grown up. You know, when you grow up, making friends they're just kind of put in your life. You're not necessarily intentional about meeting somebody and finding common ground. So the idea of going into a school where all these people had their own backgrounds together and trying to break into that was daunting. I was also, you know, one of the Ford kids, I mean, but three that came before me and they were good students and they were athletes and they had made a name, you know, and I wasn't any of those things, but I struggled with what we now know, as ADD Didn't know it at the time, thank goodness, honestly, because you know you just had to figure it out.
Speaker 5:You know, you had to you, know, and so I'm thankful that I didn't know that, because my personality probably would have loaned to feeling like a victim and I will probably wouldn't have made it through all of that. Um, but um, lost my track, so you're in.
Speaker 3:so you, so you moved to Richmond, you're at a, you're at a vulnerable state as a young woman, you know, body transitioning through some molestation, that I mean how did you deal with all of that? Then scoliosis, then the move. I mean that all had to be for you because it sounds like maybe you hit all that inside internally, yeah. So how do you deal with that?
Speaker 5:You try to control things, you know, and everything was chaotic, everything felt out of control and the one thing I found that I could control was what I ate. And um, of course, I already had body image issues, I was already hyper-focused on my physicality and I began to eat less and less. And you know, there's also, I think, with that there is a I don't know. The only thing I can think of is self-mutilation, which is not the word I want, but this thing of almost self punishment. You know you don't deserve certain things like, and that is somehow falls in that control thing. So I treated myself poorly and controlled how I did it. I, you know, I don't know how to unpack that any better.
Speaker 3:And you were probably angry. I assume, with your parents.
Speaker 5:I didn't speak to my parents for like three months at all. You know, I mean they would come, they would pray over me, they would talk to me, and I just refused to speak. You know, I was so angry, I just felt like everybody else got what they wanted. You know, my youngest brother was fine being there. He was in fifth grade Sorry, this feels like it keeps slipping and he was going to Indiana state of basketball. You know, we we drove to Indiana every summer for two weeks to see family and to go to the Indy 500. I mean, you know, indiana was a great place to move and I was like what the heck, you know? And I moved from the suburbs to the rural area.
Speaker 5:I went to an all white high school, you know, came to Richmond from the suburbs to the rural area. I went to an all white high school, you know, came to. Richmond was not an all white high school. There were rules and hallways. You walked in and didn't walk in, didn't know any of that, you know. So, um, yeah, it was. It was a huge, huge shift for me in that way. And so, yeah, the only way I felt like the one thing I could control was was eating. And so I, in fact I was sharing with my husband the other day. I found a while ago it's actually it's been several years ago, but the diet that I wrote out for myself, you know, and it was a half of an apple in the morning, a cup of tea for lunch and the other half of the apple at dinner, and you know, I mean that was, and a ridiculous regimen of sit ups and push ups and you know all this kind of stuff, and that was a little world that I could, I could be in control of.
Speaker 5:How long did that go on? My parents got pretty concerned, you know. I probably dropped about 40 pounds and wasn't a big girl, you know, and they had me talk to the doctor once and the doctor said look, you know, you're getting into a bad state of malnutrition and it's really going to affect your body. And I already knew that Mensis had completely stopped. You know all of the things that were normal. Development of a young girl had halted pretty much, and at that point I decided that I could still manage this, but very sneakily, so I would maintain a certain weight that they wouldn't be overly concerned about, you know, and feel like, okay, you know she's doing okay, but went away to college and it just exacerbated, you know. I mean I would eat monday through thursday. I'd stop eating thursday and I wouldn't eat again until monday morning and of course I was at college and it was the weekends and you know I was also medicating with sure a lot of different things.
Speaker 5:So there was a lot of weekends that you know god gave me the college roommate. He did um that. I just don't remember things. You know, I just black out because I had no food and would be drinking.
Speaker 3:Throughout throughout that time when you, when you're in high school and you go into college, was there, did you? Obviously, I'm sure you made new friends, but were there friends that you actually felt you could confide in and tell any of your past struggles with and what you were dealing with? Or, or again, because of your control, you just kind of kept it all in and just wore this facade.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you know the, the intrusion into my physical space and the sexual type of stuff didn't just stop, you know, in Pennsylvania. By then you know it was part of an identity and I think a lot of times you get for a woman anyway, you get yourself into a situation and feel like, well, I'm kind of at fault because I'm here and I perpetuated this, so you know type of thing and so there thing. So that part of things molestation and the things I endured as a young child my family will probably hear about it for the first time here and that's okay. I did share it with an older brother once when we were talking about his girls and I just felt like I needed to speak into it and say, hey, look, this happened to me and no one would ever know it. Because you know when after it happened I came home, like nothing stopped, the world just kept going on and it just felt like, okay, well, I'll just put that over here. It doesn't belong in the safe space, it belongs over here, in this space, and so not really.
Speaker 5:I mean my husband knows of it, my previous husband knew of it. I mean those. I think those are areas. There's probably some friends that I probably touched on some of that with. I don't know if I, you know, went through the whole story with. I don't know if I went through the whole story. I'm not ashamed of it. I I. It took me a long time to get there, Um, but once I did, it felt like I'm never, never ashamed to talk about it if it's going to do somebody good.
Speaker 3:But I don't just bring it up because I need to talk about it If, if there's, if there's a young girl and maybe a young man out there right now that your story from your childhood is have. Is there some advice you could give them to help get out that? Maybe, looking back now on all the things you've been through at your life, at this current age, that you could say, hey, here's what I would suggest you do?
Speaker 5:Yeah, that's a tricky one because everybody's family circumstances are different and I had a totally safe home and it was hard for me to talk about. And I have heard of young ladies who have shared, you know, something that's happened to them and they haven't been believed. So that's a tough one. Just to say, talk to somebody. But talk to somebody If a mother or father is in a safe space, if there's a school counselor. If that's not a safe space, if there's a school counselor, if that's not a safe space, if there's an aunt or an uncle, somebody that would at least listen. Because when you can get it out and start to talk about it, that's the beginning of the victory. The longer you keep it in, the more it weakens you, the more it plays on your mind, and evil can do a lot with that you know, during that time, where was your faith at?
Speaker 5:Well, I had grown up in a family of faith. Um, and my dad was always involved and it was either a deacon or an elder or some kind of leadership in the church. Mom was always in the choir doing women's ministries. We were all involved in youth group. We had kind of a wild youth group, you know not. You know, we, we, some of us partied a lot on the side, but so it was always a part. It was never something I doubted. But making it personal was in the faith I grew up in. That wasn't really stressed as much. It was more obedience and behavior and those kind of things. Kind of what you look like on the outside Behind closed doors is your own issue, you know. So I had a childlike faith. Sure.
Speaker 5:But you know, when it was time to make it my own, I, you know, four years I went to college. Pretty sure I never went into a church on the Ball State campus, I know I didn't, you know, unless I was lost, you know, would come home and go to church. But yeah, I didn't have that, that faith on my own At 24, I had, right out of college not right out of college but pretty soon after college got married and and then divorced two years later and, um, just couldn't even believe it. You know, just, I was just floored. That that's where I was, that I was 24 years old.
Speaker 5:My life was kind of a mess. Um, there was a lot of struggles going on inside my head and I was divorced and I was 24. And I remember I used to get up really early in the morning, about 4 o'clock, to go to a gym for a 5 o'clock workout class. And I woke up one morning at like 3.30 and kind of thought that's weird that I got up before my alarm and just felt an overwhelming presence of the Holy Spirit. I mean, I would tell you my room didn't even look the same color and don't even remember getting out of bed, but was on my knees and just saying look, I don't know what else to do. Lord, I have clearly screwed this all up, and so I guess I need to hand the reins over to you. You know, like there was just this understanding that I was given with all of the things that I had been taught and parents who never ceased praying for me I mean never. It was irritating how much my mother prayed for me you know what she?
Speaker 5:you know I mean, and she like, we prayed for you at Bible study today and I'd be like, well, what does everybody Bible study have to know my stuff, could you just not? You know what I mean. So, um, that's beautiful life lesson for me as I've watched my kids and so so, yeah, I, at that point there was a surrender in my heart and an understanding that it wasn't just about knowing that Christ came and died, it wasn't just about understanding the stories of creation and the worldwide flood and all those things. It wasn't. It wasn't that, it was understanding that. That all pointed to Christ coming and he did that.
Speaker 5:If I was the only person living on this earth, he would have done what he did for me, and it was about a personal relationship with him and understanding what he was calling me to and it may look a lot different than what he's calling you to and that I needed to not worry about that. I needed to. You know. Now I would say it was still a good four to five years of back and forth. You know I can live on both sides of this fence. You know I can have a foot on each side and do this, but that doesn't work well either.
Speaker 5:So you know, it was a growing process. It used to really bother me that people would be like you know, I had this experience with God. My whole life turned around and I never went back to anything again. You know, I was like really Huh, Lucky you, you know it. It was. It was a back and forth struggle, but, um, I also learned that it's okay to wrestle with God.
Speaker 3:It is, and it's um, it's common, it's daily. I think anyone who tells you otherwise is lying. Um.
Speaker 3:I think that um especially, especially, you know especially with our society today, it's hard not to wrestle with things you know, the challenges that we face and the things that we see and, um, you know, there's just, there's just so much out there that that you know, and it's, it's probably the devil right Playing that, uh, you know, on this side of your shoulder and Jesus on this side of your shoulder and pulling you in all these different directions. But you know, you just, I think, with all the different experiences that you've went through, that I've went through that, everybody listening, that Ben, everybody here, we all face those battles.
Speaker 3:We all face those struggles and it's just a matter of just continuing to believe, you know, continuing to take that step, uh, and recognizing that we're not perfect by any means. So you have that experience at 24, you go through a divorce. What's next for you?
Speaker 5:Um, just kind of redefining myself in a way, you know, and you know, started taking church more seriously and going getting a part of groups that would hold me accountable to things, just working, and a lot of my friends were still single from college. So for those years gosh went on fun ski trips with friends and you know those kind of things. So those years were really just, they were really healing years. Really had to, really came to terms with some of the things that happened in my youth, recognizing I wasn't at fault for a lot of things and I think God and I you know, I was really angry at God for a long time about some of the sexual things that happened to me Just felt like, oh, you didn't have my back. You know, I was really young, that was really unfair, you know.
Speaker 5:And coming to terms with there's sin in this world and he's not going to save you from it the things that happen but he will use them. He will walk you through it. And he's not going to save you from it the things that happen but he will use them. He will walk you through it and he will strengthen you and if you persevere, you will see that he can make ugly, horrible situations amazingly beautiful. Um, and a lot of that happened then, so I get, I started gaining some self-confidence and um where was your?
Speaker 3:how was the anorexia that gone away?
Speaker 5:Pretty much.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and how did that happen?
Speaker 5:You know I, I, I think during that time period, I think the healing of all of those things I wasn't as controlling with food Um, I wouldn't say that it was absent, I mean, I was still kind of very focused on that kind of thing, but it was more from a healthy perspective. You know, I would almost say I just kind of grew out of it in a way like it no longer served a purpose for me and I have been really really blessed that there's a lot of things like that, that, however, my personality was created. I don't seem to have an addictive personality for those types of things to like. I have to have that again. I mean, I did a lot of drinking and drugs in college and you know I don't really have any of those things as hangups. You know those aren't go-to stress relievers for me. You know not that I don't enjoy a glass of wine or you know something like that, but it's not the issue that I've seen.
Speaker 5:There is alcoholism in my family and I don't seem to struggle with that or anything like that. So I'm not sure why. You know, after going through what I went through with my second husband, I saw that. You know, some people have addiction issues and some of us don't, and that's not a strength, that's not on me. I mean, that's, that's a gift, you know? Um, so yeah, I think other things probably moved in and that kind of moved out and I and I just didn't need to do that anymore in order to control my world. And the more I gave things over to Christ, the less those things seem to even hang in my mind, you know.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, amazing, um, and I appreciate your vulnerability with that, because I know that's it's not easy for you to talk about. So you, you mentioned your second husband, so let's, let's start from there. So you're, you're going through this process, you're single, um, you know you're, you're, you're getting more involved in your faith, and then you meet someone. So, talk about that.
Speaker 5:So yeah, I was real involved with a church ministry at the time that was a martial arts ministry, outreach to kids. Thought it was kind of interesting, wanted to see how they would blend that. So I got involved in it and was working my way up in the ranks of belts and got to a belt where I was able to teach kids certain things right with martial arts and I really appreciated how they did it. You know it wasn't an aggressive. You know, come into a room and figure out who's the bigger guy. It was like come into a room and figure it out and if you see danger, you protect the weak and you get them out and you go. You don't look for a fight, you look to get away from the fight. The last thing you do is attack, get them out and you go. You don't look for a fight, you look to get away from the fight, the last thing you do is attack. You know when everybody else is at risk. That's when you do that, you know, type of thing. So it was.
Speaker 5:There was a lot of really good foundations. So the our Shidoshi, the guy who led us, took us to a conference down in Florida. The ministry we were part of was part of a larger ministry called Gospel Martial Arts Union and we were in Japan and Australia and lots of different places where these groups of men, you know ran this ministry, and the CMAU ministry that I was part of was underneath that umbrella. So we went down to Florida to learn, you know, to be beaten up and made feel small and have to walk like a duck for two miles and things like that, where you're like this is just stupid.
Speaker 5:And my ex-husband was one of the instructors down there and so we connected down there and he followed up with me and ended up he was living in another state I don't want to be too revealing. No, you're good, that was far away from me. It was on the west of the mississippi and I was in indiana and, um, he made it a a goal to come and visit me every weekend and and build a relationship. Um, and we met in march and we were married in may. So it was pretty quick. Yeah, it was really quick. Yeah.
Speaker 5:Um and I, you know, I, I felt like we were doing the right thing. I mean, he was a believer, you know, we, we prayed through this. We felt like we were doing the right thing. Um had serious concerns for my family, you know. My parents were like, uh, we don't even know this person, like he could take you away and we never see you again. You know, I had a brother who drove all the way out from Pennsylvania to sit and meet him, you know. And so um felt like we were heading in the in the right direction, and I think we were. And at that point in his life he had had some serious freedom from this addiction. And I could tell you now, after 20 years of being married to him, in that time frame he was a different person. He physically looked different, his energy was different, his focus was different. But addiction is an ugly beast. And um, in over 20 years, he didn't even look like the same person.
Speaker 3:You know so. So talk about. And this is the part of the story where I want people to. I don't want to say, be cautious but, um, this is an addiction, you know. We hear about drugs, heroin, meth, you know all these different things. Alcoholism um, addiction to pornography is one of those things that's not talked about a lot because, um, because it's uncomfortable.
Speaker 3:It's one of those things people do behind closed doors but it affects so many people that we don't even know about that we probably communicate with on a daily basis and I want you to get into this story as much as you want to get into it.
Speaker 3:More importantly, what I want to come out of this is how you were able to raise a family while this was going on, and the difficulties, because, after you and I met, when you told me everything and I'm sure you didn't tell me everything, but you told me enough where I just thought how could you live that life for 20 years? Because I can't imagine the stress that you faced, coming home every day and just maybe not feeling worthy. I don't know what the feeling is that you felt, but I want you to go into it as much as you want to go into it and recognize that there are a lot of people out there who are going to be listening, who are probably going to get punched in the mouth by hearing some of this stuff, um, but I think it is so important to talk about because, again, I think it's one of those hidden addictions that nobody talks about. So you marry this man, things are great. He's, you know, an amazing husband. But then things start to unravel a little bit Right. Um, talk about that.
Speaker 5:Yeah, you know I, I always preface things by saying every good addict needs a co-addict, right, um? And so you ask like, how did you do that for 20 years, man, I was built to do it, you know. I mean, I'm a codependent. I'm a nurse. Most of us nurses struggle with some level of codependency. You depend on me, right, and that makes me feel better about me.
Speaker 5:So fixing him was while I knew you don't fix people that was a comfort zone for me. And also covering up what was going on and lying about it was also a comfort zone for me. For a long time I just wanted to protect him and protect me, right? I wanted to make sure everybody knew that I had made the right choice, that this was a good situation, that you know he was. I wouldn't make up that he was doing things he wasn't doing because he was, you know, somewhere else, you know doing something else, and I just didn't want to face the reality of that. I think. So it's a day by day process.
Speaker 5:I also think some of the things that I went through as a child, good or bad, prepared me for enduring something that wasn't pleasant for a long period of time. You know you don't really process your own yourself. I remember in one of the counseling sessions somebody was challenging me to say like, well, how are you doing? And however I was answering, it wasn't. That person knew I was avoiding the question or didn't know how to answer the question. And what came out of that was I was only doing as well as my marriage was doing. You know, if my marriage was bad, I was bad. My marriage was good, I was good. And they were like no, how are you? Like, aside from everything else? And it was the first time that I realized I don't do me. I have no idea how I'm doing, like, aside from everything else. And it was the first time that I realized I don't do me. I have no idea how I'm doing. I have absolutely no idea, because I'm not important enough to think about that. It's how everybody else is doing and that's how I'm doing.
Speaker 5:So that was a big breakthrough, and that was relatively early on, I mean within the first five years of our marriage. And at that time I remember telling him like we've got to share this with somebody else. You know, I just can't. I just can't not talk about this with. I can't even ask anybody for prayer. I mean because then I would have to reveal this and he was very willing to do that In fact. Then I almost he almost wouldn't stop talking about it. It was very comfortable for him in circles to share what he was struggling with and it almost it seemed to me almost to become a source of pride for him, like if I share this with everybody, then everybody feels I'm dealing well with it and I'm on the other side, which was never the truth. So it often felt really, really vulnerable and like when he would share those things and I would see people be like, oh man, you know, good for you for sharing that. I'm like, yeah, it's not going to change a thing, you know what I mean. So.
Speaker 5:So that was that was kind of hard and that build up bitterness. There was a constant struggle of understanding that this was a situation I was in and I had to turn it over to God and trust that he was going to walk this out well and then going yeah, but you're not looking at my blueprint because this is not going well, and you know so. So there was, there was that and this awareness that my my part was to work on me. There was that and this awareness that my part was to work on me, not him. So you know, one of the things that came out of that whole situation was an unbelievably deepened faith Because, you know, during the marriage also, I ended up with bilateral breast cancer, had to go through a mastectomy and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5:Well, tail end of that, we separated, you know. So you get to this place where there is nowhere else to go but down on your knees. There just isn't. You've come to absolutely the end of yourself and you know it was just like that night I described in my room. It's like I don't even know, I don't know how to do this, so I'm just going to give it to you every day and walk it out. Now, during the day, you take it back and forth and somebody says something or hurt you and you, you shame them and I mean we got into those cycles. You know it's very good at shaming him, which was would send him into a cycle, right. So you do this kind of very unhealthy dance and then we would have moments of strength that we would talk about things, and I knew he wanted it out of his life. I knew he did. But you know you talk to anybody with an addiction, a smoker or whatever you know. There's just that .0001% that you just can't let go of, and that is all Satan needs. Yeah.
Speaker 5:You know, I mean, it's just so. I don't understand that part of it real well because I've. I mean when I, you know, I smoked cigarettes in college and then when I got away from people who smoked cigarettes, I had never bought a pack, so I just didn't smoke cigarettes anymore. I don't have that personality, not that it's not a struggle. I mean there's still two people I can think of, I get around. If they're smoking, I'll be like, oh, pass me a cigarette, you know. And when they leave I don't even think about it, you know. So I get that. That's a blessing for me.
Speaker 5:But it made it hard sometimes to understand. Like, just stop. But, like you said, it's a totally different addictive beast because it's not a substance. You can't pour out the alcohol, you can't get rid of the drugs, you can't keep them from going gambling. This one's up here and he used to tell me that I've got videos stored in my mind for years and years and years. I can play them anytime I want, you know.
Speaker 5:And so it's a very, and somebody shared with him once that he, the gentleman who was sharing it, said he had several addictions and one of them was heroin. The other one was pornography, and pornography was much harder than heroin to get rid of, and I just remember going what? Oh my gosh, okay, this is evil. Yeah, oh my gosh, okay, this is, this is, this is big evil. Yeah, and um, you know, I think, like with most addictions, you think if you just do it in private, it doesn't affect anybody, but, um, it rots your soul. I mean it does and, and I think he would, he would tell you that I mean it just shatters, your foundation crumbles and that leeches out into everything that you do.
Speaker 3:So throughout that 20 year marriage you have children. Talk about that.
Speaker 5:That was scary. Yeah, you know, when we started the marriage and he had told me about this addiction prior to our getting married, I felt like oh, he's, he's conquered this. And he was in a time frame at that point where it was not an issue for him and he had this nine weeks of like complete sobriety for it and from it, and so I I and I didn't understand a pornography addiction. I'm like I'll just stop looking at it and stop touching yourself. I mean, it seems pretty simple to me, there's your solution. But pretty early on in our marriage, within the first few weeks, he shared with me that he was struggling and that sent me into a tailspin. I felt like I was 12. You know, I mean it was kind of an ugly time for me and I really really withdrew. It was, it was kind of an ugly time for me and I really really withdrew and and I, I came out of that, but I don't think ever completely.
Speaker 5:You know there was a there was a hedge of oh, second guessing, yeah, um, so yeah, when, when we got pregnant, of course I was excited because I was 37. Right, and I really hadn't. I didn't more, not having children necessarily, but you know, wanted the opportunity, I was married and you know. So we're excited. But yeah, in the back of my mind I'm like, how does this play out? You know, I mean, whether it's a girl or a boy, you know how does this play out. So we kind of doubled down. We flew out to Colorado for two weeks of intensive counseling. I mean we were doing a lot of the right things, but he was really living two different lives. I mean. I think part of it was, you know, look what I'm doing. And the other part of it was don't look what I'm doing.
Speaker 5:And so, right after my first son was born, which was five days of labor and a very difficult birth, and you know, after he was born, he was rushed off to the newborn ICU and you know, we were told a lot of really bad things that meant and I was a nurse and I knew what they meant. You know I'm like OK, so liver transplant, ok, so this, so that. So that was a really rough 48, 72 hours, and it was. He was born on September 10th and nine 11, or he was born on. He was due on September 10th, nine 11 happened. He was born on September 26th, so I mean it was. That was a timeframe, you know what I mean. The whole world had shifted and you just knew, like my kids are never going to know the world I grew up in, you know, I mean that's all. So there were a lot of things at play and my husband had his own company. That was a. He was involved in the Internet, website design, maintenance, stuff like that, and his big cash cows were airlines. So a lot of them pulled their business right away and so he's limping this along way, and so he's limping this along. And you know I'm going through this this five days in the hospital of labor and and our child's in the newborn ICU and you know all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 5:And I had a real struggle with God at that point too. In fact, just shook my fist at him and I hate to even say it, but I remember having a conversation with him saying and I hate to even say it, but I remember having a conversation with him saying take your hands off my son, he's mine, and how dare you bring me this far and then do this? And I just, I was just, you know, and I don't know what it was that I opened my Bible one morning and I, when I was sitting there in the hospital, still after he'd been born, and read the story of Jacobed, which is Moses's mother putting her son in a basket and sending him in the Nile River and trusting that whatever happened to him, that was God's plan and that she was going to rejoice in whatever it was. And it was just a rendering of my spirit. You know it's like oh my gosh, I'm sorry, he's not mine, he's yours, I forgot, you know, all right. Oh my gosh, I'm sorry, he's not mine, he's yours, I forgot, you know, all right, do whatever you're gonna do, but if I leave this hospital without him, you better, you better support me, because I don't know how to do that, you know. So, yeah, so sometimes there were things that that took my mind off of what was going on with my husband and I could just focus on those things. But I had some pretty poignant dreams that were really scary about, you know, my son being a copy of my husband's struggles and, you know, would wake up and just like run and grab him out of the crib. I'm like, okay, no, he's still a newborn, he's still perfect, there's still time.
Speaker 5:But you know, as the addiction worsened and I say worsened, I mean he had struggled with this since he was a teenager. So you know, it's not like it came around right when we got married, but as it manifested itself and really took hold, but as it manifested stuff and really took hold, he became very oppressive. So, you know, I mean I cook in the kitchen. He's watching over my shoulder and second-guessing what I'm doing. You know my son couldn't really do anything, right, there was, you know, always a better way to do it or always.
Speaker 5:And and so my struggle was knowing my son needed to see a united marriage in order to be a strong young man, but almost always siding against my husband, with my son, and feeling like that's a bad, that's a bad thing. You know that he can't see that division, but not knowing how to, how to be united with somebody, that I was really struggling respecting, which is the main thing a woman's supposed to do. For you know, men need respect, right, they don't need love as much. Women need love. You know you don't have to respect me, I don't care, I mean, you know, I mean it's a different beast, yeah, so.
Speaker 3:While, at the same time, you're still a registered nurse. You're still working. You're still a registered nurse. You're still working. You're still, you know, raising your son. You know you go away for eight to 10 hours or 12 hours a day, whatever your shift is, and then you come home to this whole different life, right, man? What a what a struggle that had to be for you mentally.
Speaker 5:Oh yeah yeah, my mental health was health was. That was a tough thing. It really was, especially when you didn't have anybody to really vent to or talk to about it. So you know, when we first went to counseling, the first counseling that we went to, which was out in Colorado, was a little odd for me, of course. I was at that point I was like six months pregnant, so that's kind of a weird thing. You know, point, I was like six months pregnant, so that's kind of a weird thing.
Speaker 5:You know, um, but I mean I think it gave me some tools to use, but at the same time I felt like it was the takeaway for a lot of the people that were there with the addiction was kind of a victimization of like this is just who I am, type of thing. I don't know that that was their point, but that was kind of where it got around to. For a lot of the people that were there with us was just that you know this, this is, this is part of who I am and I'm, I struggle with it and I might have victory, but I don't know, I left there feeling like there was an excuse for him not to have complete victory.
Speaker 3:This, the one that you went to, was that, um, the one you told me about that was more of a Christian based type therapy that the one you told me about.
Speaker 5:That was more of a Christian-based type therapy. In fact it was primarily for pastors and this was a house. I think they could have eight couples at a time and they were booked six months out Just people who were speaking from a pulpit and teaching, and my ex-husband was not in that. I don't even know how we got into the program. I mean he had seen it in a magazine. He brought it to me. He said I think this is what I'm struggling with hadn't really identified it in his own mind, and we applied and and got accepted.
Speaker 5:To come out almost like within a month or two Retrospectively, looking at the program and seeing what they were doing, I was like how in the world that we aren't even in the ministry? I mean, he headed up the ministry, the Gospel Martial Arts Union. He was the president of that when we met, but he wasn't a pastor, teacher, that kind of thing. So you know, I know that that was God. So whether I feel like that was a really good experience for us or not, there was something in that that was very important for me to go through and understand and it did help me understand addiction better.
Speaker 5:I was like, okay, this isn't you, you can't just stop looking at that, stop touching yourself like I get it there. There's, there's chemicals at play, there's things that have built up in your brain, there's things that you need to understand why it's driving you there in order to to overcome this. Um. So I know, I know it was a good thing, it was just. I think it was just like I said I was pregnant and you know, we, we hadn't really told too many people yet and I was still kind of in a mentally in a in a rough place.
Speaker 5:And you know, just, I don't to be fully candid, you know, our, our intimacy life was a bit challenging for me. I I'd always felt unsafe in in sexual relationships, but, um, bringing what he brought into that was um, it really, it really brought out the insecurities in what I'd struggled with all my life and I also I was not very present a lot of times just couldn't be. So that's hard. You don't even share that intimacy. Really, that intimacy is all tainted with this and they sens, sense that and so, yeah, I mean, I think as, as my boys grew or you know, they really sense that I, there was a lot of things. He did well with them, but not consistently, and what was consistent was not good. Right.
Speaker 5:And so there was a underlying lack of trust in the house. There was arguments that they would see and pent up frustration with their mom. I think I must have had a really stern look on my face a lot of times. My youngest would say that he would often say it's not what you're saying, it's your tone, or it's not what you're saying, it's how you're looking at me and I'm like what you know? But it was everything I could do just to to maintain and not lose it on them. It wasn't their issue, you know, but but I I think that a lot of times also, I think I would be unfeeling about something you know. My kids would say you know, my mom's not going to take us to the hospital unless we're absolutely dying. You know, I, I would minimize everything you know they'd come in with you know, opened up wounds and I'd go get duct tape.
Speaker 5:You're fine, you know we'll. We'll take care of that here.
Speaker 3:You know, which is how my dad was, you know I mean so um well and knowing your story, to this point of your life, like you, you were the fixer. You all those things that you deal with dealt with as a young woman, a young lady, first marriage, second marriage. All those things that you're dealing with like why would you take your kid to the hospital if they got a cut on her head? I mean, that's a simple fix, right From what you're dealing with, what you've been through, you kidding me.
Speaker 5:Well, and I think too, some of the things like I made some really bad mistakes when I was a teenager and my dad made sure that I would walk out the consequences. I forged some things in high school and my dad found out about it. He took me to court and he made me walk through that process and I, you know, I thought my life was over. But I do remember the judge saying to me at the end of all of it, all the principles were there, it was awful and it was a long process, that how lucky I was to have parents that cared that much. And of course, I'm sitting there going. Are you kidding me? This is caring. Yeah, you know yeah.
Speaker 5:I know, or you know, a time when you know, wearing this back brace and I had gotten very sneaky about it and wasn't wearing it anymore and tried to. I used to go to school and take it off. But I tried to take it off one morning before going to school and I was trying to act like I had it on and my dad could tell that I didn't and said to me right before I was leaving to go to the bus come give me a hug, suze, which we were a hugging family, but that was not something he would normally say and the only thing I could think of saying was no. And he said it again and I knew. I knew the jig was up and so I took off. I ran out the back door.
Speaker 5:I mentioned how tall my father was. His step is three of mine.
Speaker 5:He caught up with me and, you know, said we'll talk about this this evening which I got to go through a whole day of school knowing that you know but basically the bottom line was you know, when you can't show responsibility, when you can't show working through something, when you can't make right decisions, there's privileges you don't get and you don't get your license. And at the time that was no big deal. I had three older siblings and you know I was like fine, I don't care. But the funny thing about that is, years later, when I was in college and getting ready to do community nursing and I needed a car and I still didn't have my license, you know, I was 1920 years old and I went home and I was like Dad, you know, I've got to learn community nursing. I got to go out. You know, I need a car, I need to. And he said you can take the Mercury. It was this car that he bought for all the kids. It had like super play in the wheel. There was a hole in the floor, you know. And I was like well, I don't have my license. And he goes why don't you have your license? I'm like what you forgot?
Speaker 5:But it showed the obedience number one of understanding that Until he said yes, I wasn't going to do that, even though legally I probably could have gone and done it. But number two was you will pay the price for your consequences. You can make whatever decision you want, but play out both sides of it and if it is worth it to you to pay the consequences, and you're going to go ahead, just remember that you agreed to that in your own self and don't ever say you don't deserve it. And so that I think all of that, those kinds of experiences played out in this like you, you, you accept where you are and you push forward, and you, you then make better choices, you know, type of thing.
Speaker 5:So I I think those things, along with all the other things that I've shared, that I've gone, that I went through, were were things that helped me to push through and persevere and know that you know there, there was an end to this at some point, whether it was the day I took my last breath on earth and then everything's perfect, or it would work out like it would in my mind, which was he would finally surrender all of it. My boys would watch the transformation of a person and what God can do, you know, and it didn't work out that way, yeah, so how did it end?
Speaker 5:So, you know, at one point when my boys were young teens, it was earlier than I wanted to share with them. He shared with them what was what his struggle was, which was powerful and good, had he been healed, but he since he wasn't. I think it became a little confusing for them because unfortunately, both my boys visualized things they shouldn't have visualized right, both with their father in the picture and not in the picture. And my oldest son recently has actually had to address his dad, you know, in that situation. So it continues on, but at at the time, at their age, it's very confusing.
Speaker 5:You know, do what I say, not what I do. Um and um. We started having these weekly meetings for we check in. The boys wanted to do this and like, how's it going dad? How? You know we, everybody wanted to support dad. You know, like what can we do? But pretty quickly they became kind of the same thing, you know, like, you know, in real, non-specific.
Speaker 5:So it was kind of a tough week. You know, what was it? What's that mean? Well, you know, just didn't go the way I wanted it to. You know, wouldn't give, wouldn't open up, but you just kept everybody on that outer circle and so the way an addict talks is to never actually be guilty, right, and so it just kind of left you going. Well, what does that mean? Like? Well, clearly it means that, okay so, and he was less and less a part of things I was.
Speaker 5:Usually I looked like a single parent at a lot of baseball games and at a lot of swim meets and at a lot of band performances and a lot of, you know, theater stuff. He may argue that, but in my memory, you know, I was taking him to practice, I was taking him to the games. I was, I was doing everything. That's that's how it felt and that may be my side of the story, you know, but they, they saw that, they felt that. The boys felt that and I think by the time they were teenagers, my boys were still coming to me for all of their major issues and I just knew that wasn't the way God designed it. You know, I'm like I don't know how to walk you through that one. You know, I mean they'd share things with me that some of my friends would just be like I can't believe how your boys talk to you and they'd share everything with you. I'm like, I know, I know, like I don't even know what to tell them.
Speaker 5:So that that and the fact that it came to a real head for you know, especially my oldest son, and when things started really going bad for him, I knew I I'm like, okay, I've got two bad, I got two decisions to make. Neither one of them was good, you know. I mean, do we stay in this situation? Do we leave this situation? And which lesson is it?
Speaker 5:And I had been the gentleman who married us, who was a mentor to Mac's husband, had told me, probably five years previous to this, that biblically I could be released from this marriage. There was infidelity, whether it was physical or mental, because you know, at that point there had been no activity between us for years and years and years, which I was fine with. But you know, I mean, that's just how it manifests, you know, I mean that the reality, pornography, is so far removed from what intimacy is supposed to be Right. And if you grow up with those in your mind which is my warning to boys now you look at that stuff and you think that's what it's all about, I'm telling you right now it is going to be a rough marriage and if and if women think that's how they're supposed to perform. It's going to be extremely lonely. It's so warped, it's so warped and it just leaves no room for the health of a healthy woman. Marriage in that intimacy realm, you know, it's always an unsafe place to go, quite frankly so, and it's supposed to be the most sacred place that you have, right. So you know. Good job, satan. You know, I mean you tear that down, you tear marriages down, you tear families apart, which is, you know, ultimately, what ended up happening.
Speaker 5:I just got to a point one day where I said we, I, you know, we've been doing this for 20 years and we're not anywhere different than we were when we started. And I just don't know why. You know what's the definition of insanity Doing the same thing over and over again, expecting a different result. And I remember at that time saying I, I'm, I'm done, I'm, I just can't, I can't do this with you anymore. I've got to turn around and pay full attention to them and I just can't do it with you. Here. We had separated twice, you know, over this.
Speaker 5:He had been homeless for a while. I mean, we'd walk through some ugly stuff trying to get him through this and we were really nowhere different. And his response to me was anger, was I'm tired of people not believing me? And if that's how you feel, then I'm out of here. And I thought to myself that was confirmation, because somebody who, of course, he was always claiming sobriety, right, somebody who's fought to get their family back, who's sober, who's been homeless, who's been through counseling, that's not their answer. Their answer is no way. I have fought too hard and I will do whatever it takes. What do you need me to do? And his was tuck my tail and run and feel sorry for myself and left 10 and a half hours away.
Speaker 5:You know he didn't go to the next city, he vacated and really didn't hear much from him for a while. He called me two weeks later saying he wasn't coming back. You know there wasn't anything here. For him it's like, oh ouch, I mean I don't care if that's the way you feel about me, but you got, I got a boy getting ready to graduate high school. I've got. I mean I have two teenage boys here. What do you mean? There's nothing. Are you kidding me? You know? I mean that's how warped it got in his mind, because that that I know, that he knows, but I knew he knew better than that, but he, he was lost in the forest. I mean it, it it had been part of his life for so long that his reality was completely different from the reality we were in and um, and that really hasn't changed to this day, unfortunately.
Speaker 3:So what was that feeling like for you? Not, you know obviously your care and your concern for your boys, but that feeling for you when he said I'm not coming back. For you, when he said I'm not coming back Relief.
Speaker 5:Sadly, you know, like I, I don't care, you know, I, I, I've been doing this on my own for 20 years, you getting out of the way. Just I can breathe Um, the. When you live with somebody, that's that oppressive and you can't do much. That's right, it right, it's freedom. And and along with that came horrible guilt. That that's how I felt, because I knew it wasn't going to feel that way for my boys. Right, they were going to walk through something and I've told them that I did not have a father who did this, my father to the his last breath.
Speaker 5:I could depend on that man for anything, especially a harsh word, if I needed to hear it. You know, or like I'm not, I don't agree with you on that one. I mean, he was a sounding board for me. He was steadfast and he was there and his commitment was to his kids and his wife and his God. You know what I mean and I knew that. So I could not identify with what they were going through. I, you know, I had no idea how it felt. First of all, I'm not a boy. Sure.
Speaker 5:You know, second of all, my father never vacated, never abandoned me. So I was at a bit of a loss as to how to walk them through it. And so it was just, and, and in all honesty, I somewhat abandoned them. I lost myself at my work. I'd work 80 hour work weeks. I'd go in at five in the morning, come home at two in the morning, get up and do it again, you know, and and leave my two boys there.
Speaker 5:My oldest boy was kind of spinning out of control at that time. You know he was making really bad choices and you know can't reveal all those. But I was called to school more than once and had to take him home for different reasons, and it was just this about face of this. You know I'm just going to rebel against all this. And then my youngest son was just, he was just kind of lost. He's a person who really has to. When you tell that child at nine in the morning what the plan is, you better not deviate from it because he will let you know. You know he needs structure, he needs organization, he that's kind of how he thrives still to this day. And so he was. He was just, you know, a flag fly. He just didn't know what to do. And, um, I think he felt, no, he felt abandoned by, by his dad, but his brother who is now doing these different actions, and he didn't know how to handle that.
Speaker 5:And then he was, you know, as siblings do, don't tell mom, don't tell you know. So then, and he couldn't not tell me the truth. I mean, that was just his makeup, you know. I mean, he told me once he confessed he looked at pornography and he was like 10. And I was like what? Well, he had seen a magazine at the grocery store of somebody that was in a bikini and that's what he thought. So he's got to tell me that right away. I mean, that was him, my oldest son's, much more like me. You just keep it in, you just don't share, you just internalize. So that was the harder one to raise. You think, like if a child's like me, I'm going to be able to nail it. And then you realize I didn't really nail it and I don't really know how I got through that. So I don't really know how to tell him to deal with this. And dealing with yourself being a parent, deal with a child who was you as a child was like that's not easy. It's not a good place to be. Yeah.
Speaker 3:So it's challenging. Yeah, how are the boys now?
Speaker 5:Um, they're amazing. Uh, you know, I, one of my biggest things was like are these boys ever going to like each other? I mean they just oil and water. I mean they just could not. You know, my second born son was pretty sure he should have been born first, from the minute he came out, never let his older brother forget it. Older brother really resented that about him.
Speaker 5:Their minds are different, the way they work through things. My oldest is very laid back. My youngest is not laid back. He's extremely intentional and intense and, um, both of those have great qualities. But you know, you have to, you have to hone those right. They can, they can be your biggest fault, they can be your biggest strength.
Speaker 5:But my, my oldest works for Brian, you know, and so I was really thankful that he was going to go into something. He graduated the year of COVID that what he was going into, which was underwater welding. All the schools closed down for a couple years, so he did some other things and then Brian brought him on. You know, stay with me for a couple years. I'll introduce you to some people in the trades. We'll see what happens and and four years later he's. He's there and he's working and he, he loves it, he loves what he does. He just got engaged to be married.
Speaker 5:He is an amazing older brother and my youngest went away. He chose college, my oldest chose vocations and my youngest chose college. That was good Once he went away to college, but it happened a lot faster than I thought it would. I mean within months he would come home and they were spending all this time together to the point where I'm like, hey, your bed is here in this house, why are you always over there? Now I'm fine with it, but they've become very close and I think it has helped them both to heal. My oldest has found a safe place to have a good relationship. I've told them both. I'm like you know your dad's your dad. Sure.
Speaker 5:And you've got to figure out where you can have a good relationship with them. It may never be the one you want, but he's going to be here and, and even though he struggles with understanding his reality, he does. He loves you. I know, he does, you know. And so my, my oldest, found that place with him pretty, pretty well, my youngest has really, really struggled to find that place with him. Um, but he struggles. So that's good, that's what I've told him. It's great that you're struggling, you know. That means that there's something there that you're fighting for. So you know they've gotten there. Like I said, most recently my oldest son had decided to have a. Well, he sent his dad a letter about some things that were really bothering him and laid some boundaries and some rules, and hasn't heard from his dad now for months, because you know his feelings are hurt, I'm sure, but he was prepared for that, but it's still it's.
Speaker 5:It's still hard, it's still hurtful. You know, I feelings are hurt, I'm sure, but he, he was prepared for that, but it's still it's. It's still hard, it's still hurtful. You know, I just want to go. Really, man, do you know what it takes for a kid to do that? I could have never. There were things I would have liked to said to my dad that I, just the minute I got in front of him, I was 10 years old, with pigtails. You know, I'm like I can't say anything. You know that takes a lot and so, you know, I give him those accolades, but it's not the same, you know. But they're, they're both doing really well, they both have a ways to go, they both are. They're wrestling, you know, with God. Yeah, but they're wrestling with God.
Speaker 3:So amen, you know you've been doing that all your life.
Speaker 5:Yes.
Speaker 3:I've been doing that all your life, right, I've been doing that. All I mean we all have, I mean, it's, it's, uh, again, it's a, it's a, it's a struggle and you just gotta you gotta believe and you gotta continue to take that step and recognize there's going to be things that are going to knock you off the horse, right and um, and that you may get knocked off for 20 years, yeah, Um, but you continue to have that feeling and you continue to pray and um, I mean, I can't imagine all the times in your life where you question.
Speaker 3:God, you question why you know, haven't I been, wasn't I through enough as a, as a 10 year old girl? And here I am, you know, 40, 50 years old, and now I'm dealing with this you know, I'm living this life that um. I don't. I never anticipated living.
Speaker 1:Right, I mean, how many times did you tell yourself that Ever?
Speaker 3:Um, susan, your story is amazing and and I am I'm proud of you for sitting here and and telling it, because I think your story probably resonates with more people than some of our other guests stories because, um, it's everyday life, you know it's, it's raising a family, it's dealing, uh, you know, with someone who you love, you married, who's battling addiction and you don't know how to fix it because they don't know how to fix it, and you try, and you try, and you try, and you try, and you keep taking those steps and I'm sure there's many, many times in that 20 years you felt like you were living a false life.
Speaker 5:Oh man, yeah, it's hard to feel like an imposter in your own life and that is a lot of times. But I felt that at my youth I often that like I wasn't really there. I was just kind of. I was physically there, but there was just this emptiness about me and felt like I was never. I didn't have any kind of identity that was my own.
Speaker 5:And then when you get in those situations, that's something that rears its head and that you battle and while, yes, frustrated with God, and while, yes, I just I don't get why you're doing this. I don't know how this plays out, also feeling like, yeah, you did it to yourself. You know, I mean that self, that voice, right, but I did have to get to a place where, you know, raise your children up in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it, and that is a promise, right. And so I may never get to see what I've envisioned for my kids ever, but I know that there is a promise and I know that I can rest there. I can rest there.
Speaker 5:You know, for a long time I didn't think I could. I was like, yeah, but I mean, don't you think it'd be better if we did it this way? You know type of thing. But I mean, don't you think it'd be better if we did it this way? You know type of thing. But I bet I can rest there now, you know, hey, it doesn't matter if I get to see what I envisioned our life being. I never thought my boys would be as close as they are now. I never did, and I mean, they're just best friends, it's a blessing, yeah.
Speaker 5:I mean, it blows my mind. I tell my now husband um, how I'm like. You should have seen this three years ago. You should have seen this two years ago Like this. This would never have happened. And now they're like all together all the time. Yeah, I'm like. You know, I don't even want to be with either one of them as much as they're with each other. And he recognizes it. He says well done, good job. I'm like, believe me, like I said, I exited their lives for a while too and just buried myself in my work and let whatever happened happen. And yeah, I mean, there's power stronger than than us as parents that are at play.
Speaker 3:All right. One last question. If you could sit on a park bench and have a conversation with someone, living or deceased, who would it be and why?
Speaker 5:I've thought about this one, cause I hear you ask it all the time they would be living. Most of the people that I know that are deceased, that I miss. I'm going to be with them forever, so it's really more the people that are here that I don't get to see. I have a dear, dear friend. There's two people that come to mind I don't know how to put one in front of the other, but her name is Autumn and we started motherhood together, together, and our souls just clicked and they moved away 20 years ago. But we, you know, they were in St Louis and we were all homeschooling at the time, so we could go there a lot. Now they're in Indianapolis, see each other a lot.
Speaker 5:She's walked a, you know, a really, really rough road. Um has has lost a young child just before he turned a year old. She's just gone through some stuff and I I miss her and we just don't get the time that we want. And um, I, I think, I think it would be her because I just I don't get time with her and she strengthens my spirit and my soul. And the other person would be Bill, my husband, because we got married in February and he's still living in Noblesville and I'm still here, and so he's my person and I get strength from him, and so I would love you know, I mean we're working towards being in the same place at the same time, but they both feel that that part of me that's just like oh man, there you are, you know, um, so I would, I would take that.
Speaker 5:I maybe have to put autumn before him, cause I haven't seen her for longer. I just saw him last weekend. I hadn't seen her for longer. I just saw him last weekend. I'm sure he understands.
Speaker 3:Oh my goodness, what a story. Ben any questions comments. You can think Comments.
Speaker 4:First one the praying. And like planting the seed for your son or your sons I should say I just go back to like when you were a kid and you moved here to Indiana and you're so mad at your parents and you're like I'm not talking to him, I'm not talking to him. My parents come in there and they pray over me every single night and like yeah how awesome is that?
Speaker 4:And like, still like that long ago, like, and you're still praying, and like you know, in God's time your kids will, the seed will come to you know the time.
Speaker 4:But I just was thinking about that. And then just how powerful and how many different people you're going to impact, right, like, maybe there's a wife or somebody that's dealing with their husband watching porn and the addictions or any addiction really, and you know it's a silent one that nobody knows about, you're not going to say anything about it because it's, you know, it's dirty, it's just embarrassing, disgusting, you know. And so you're going to support the women out there and then bring the eyes to the husband, right, who's dealing with the addiction and what it's doing to your marriage, what you know, are you dealing with some of the things that you know, the issues that you're having, that or what you had, I should say and are they experiencing the same things in their marriage? Maybe you'll open their eyes to see, like man, like here, I thought it's, you know, hidden, not affecting anybody else, but it really is.
Speaker 4:And I just think, and it's, you know, hidden, not affecting anybody else, but it really is. And I just think and then you go. You know as a young kid how you deal with the molestation and stuff like that. It's just so many different people that you're going to touch and I just so thankful for you to be so vulnerable.
Speaker 5:Thank you. There's a lot of people that that probably have a similar type story too. It's, you know, and pornography is becoming more accepted, you know. I mean the teenage boys now. I mean it's. My boys have had conversations with me about no, it's kind of normal. I'm like it's not, like nobody at 10 and they're 10 years old goes. I know what I want to be when I grow up. I want to be a porn star. That is not. That is not what women, I don't care. If you feel like, hey, they're out there, they're doing this, believe me, it's not what they want. Or it's not what their parents hoped for them, or their ex-spouse or their children or who. It's not, and it is. It will, it will. It'll weaken you, you know, just like any, any sin. Honestly, I mean I, we look at it as a worse sin. I don't think god looks at sin in that way, right?
Speaker 5:sin is sin my issue with lying is the same as somebody's issue. I mean whatever separates you from him, it just looks worse. And pornography, I mean that whole, that whole genre, if you will supports sex slave trade. It supports I'm child pornography, I mean it. It has leached out into so many things that people don't understand. By supporting that, what you're supporting, you know. And even video games.
Speaker 5:I remember my son telling me once that you can, in a video game, you can stop and get out of your car and go into a strip club and then on the video game there's naked women. And I'm like what is wrong with people? What is wrong with people? Are you kidding me? Like why, why is that even a part of something what you know? But so it's. It's kind of like what we were talking about when we were talking about you know, not knowing. Like right here in Eaton there's people who need shoes, there's people who need laundry done, like it's all around you and I don't know if it's easier just to go it's too exhausting to be aware of it all the time or if we just we're, we become. I don't know if you've ever heard the analogy of put a toad in water and slowly heat it up and he'll just sit there. He won't even notice the difference. If that's how we are, you know it's like it's just it's. You know it's what it is. What are you gonna do?
Speaker 4:yeah, and hopefully it sparks something. You know you mentioned the video games thing and everything. How early do you talk about this with your kids?
Speaker 3:You know, I mean that's.
Speaker 4:That's the whole next thing about it, Right, I mean?
Speaker 3:it's an uncomfortable topic to talk about with children, you know, and I have, I have a sophomore son, uh, and then I have a 10 year old son and three daughters, you know, and it's conversation that we're going to have, uh, it needs to be discussed and it doesn't mean that you're going to stop anything or stop them from seeing anything. But you know, these young kids need to be made aware that they are being targeted. Um, there's so many, there's all this clickbait and things you can click on where it may not look like pornography, and you click on it. Then, all of a sudden I mean I've heard numerous stories People tell me you know they're looking at a to buy a certain product and they click on the thing and all of a sudden, boom, it jumps right to. You know, a naked lady, and it's a porn site.
Speaker 3:I mean they're very, very creative in how they market um and and how they get you, and all it takes is just to see it once.
Speaker 1:And then it's like whoa you know Um, so it's um.
Speaker 3:You know I, I was impacted by it. I had a, a close spiritual friend, um, who reached out to me one evening, probably six months ago, sent me a text and and he was, he was going through a lot of struggles and I think I shared a little bit this with you when you were in the office and he sent me a text it was 10 o'clock at night on a Saturday and he said when you get a chance, uh, if you've got time to talk, can you call me? And I was like, yeah, I'm driving home, I'll call you here as soon as I get home. So I called him and you know he he proceeded to tell me that he was addicted to pornography and that it was something that he had been battling since he was a young kid, you know, like your ex-husband, and he felt like he was living two lives and he was getting therapy.
Speaker 3:And this is someone who I looked up to spiritually and that was a real big punch in the gut for me because you know, you look at at people like that and almost put them on a pedestal and you don't even think that that would be something they would be addicted to, right because of the field that they're in. And I was just, I mean, I felt empathy for him. I was, you know, I just listened, let him let, felt empathy for him. I was, you know, I just listened, let him, you know. For whatever reason he felt he confided in me to tell me I don't know if I'm the only one that knows um, he's doing better now, but I'm sure it's a battle he's going to face, you know, probably for the rest of his life.
Speaker 3:And this is someone who's who I thought was as close to God as you can get. Yeah, so, but what's that show us? You know, the closer that you get, the stronger that you get in your faith. Guess what? The devil's right there to try to tempt you and to to get you to go down this other path. So it is a battle. I mean, spiritual warfare is a real thing.
Speaker 5:Yeah, Very, very real. Yeah, I mean it's. I dealt with it just this past weekend. It was ugly.
Speaker 5:You know I had to go. Oh my gosh, I'm so sad that I'm not stronger than that. I didn't see that coming, you know. But you know I had somebody who called me out and I, you're right. Oh my gosh, that was totally self-serving, you know. So it's, it's okay to fail to fail. Just you gotta have accountability and you know men need to speak into this for men. Men need to be accountable to men and men aren't necessarily gift forgot. You know you don't want to sit and chit chat about things like that and but you know I'm that's not an area I can reach out into. I can. I can reach out into other women's lives. I can. You know, I can share my experiences, you know I I would have loved if my story ended differently.
Speaker 5:I would have loved for my family to have stayed together. I would have loved for him to have been healed and we would be here together talking about it. I would have loved that. But so you know, my advice is not ever just get out of it, get away. You know I mean you got to walk it out with God. I mean, like I said, I had two people. You know my advice is not ever just get out of it, get away, you know. I mean you got to walk it out with God. I mean, like I said, I had two people spiritual leaders that spoke into my marriage saying, look, I don't think he's going to get over this, like you have every right. And I'm like, yeah, god hasn't given me that red flag yet, he just hasn't. So there must be more that I need to learn. There must be more my sons need to endure. There must be more that my ex-husband needed to figure out. It just wasn't time. So I, you know, got to follow what God does. He'll give you the strength. He'll give you the strength.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you've proven that.
Speaker 5:Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, susan, thank you for your honesty, your vulnerability and your willingness to share the unseen battles you faced. Your story is a powerful reminder that, no matter how deep the scars or how heavy the burden, there is always hope, healing and redemption on the other side of pain. You've shown us that faith can carry us through the darkest seasons and that, with God's grace, we can rise stronger than ever.
Speaker 5:Thank you, yeah, thank you guys.
Speaker 3:Yeah, everybody somebody out there you know is facing something that Susan has went through in her life and, uh, I just ask that you share that with that someone that that may have confided in you and whatever struggles they're facing, so that they can hear Susan's story and recognize that there is light at the end of that tunnel. But it's still going to be challenging every day. Yeah. So everybody share. Like all those good things go out and be tempered.
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