BeTempered
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 65 – The Fight, The Mountain, and the Man Who Wouldn’t Quit
Some stories are about survival. This one is about transformation.
In this unforgettable episode of BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr welcome Ray Mackelson—a man whose life was once confined by invisible walls. For decades, anxiety ruled everything. Ray couldn’t drive more than an hour from home without facing crippling panic. Normalcy, freedom, and adventure felt like distant dreams—out of reach, beyond reason, and completely unattainable.
But then, something changed.
Through a combination of nutrition, lifestyle adjustments, and a powerful reconnection with faith, Ray began to feel the smallest cracks in the wall that had surrounded him for so long. What started as subtle shifts in mindset and health grew into something far greater: a deep inner strength that had been buried beneath fear for years.
And then came the moment that would test him like never before.
Ray—who once feared even a simple road trip—decided to fly alone to Georgia to take part in a 24-hour mountain endurance event surrounded by strangers. What’s more? He didn’t just show up. He was chosen to lead.
The trek was brutal. The mountain was unforgiving. And Ray’s knee gave out early. Every step became agony, and quitting would’ve been understandable—expected, even. But Ray didn’t stop. And the power of his perseverance rippled through the team.
As one teammate put it:
“If Ray isn’t quitting, none of us are quitting.”
What unfolded on those trails wasn’t just a test of physical endurance—it was a living illustration of how our deepest struggles can become our greatest testimonies. Ray’s pain became purpose. His brokenness became a beacon.
This episode isn’t simply about overcoming anxiety—it’s about how vulnerability, faith, and courage can be the catalyst not just for personal healing, but for leading others to breakthrough. It’s a reminder that true peace doesn't always mean the absence of pain, but rather discovering purpose in the midst of it.
Have you been living in limitation? Are there mountains in your life you’ve avoided even thinking about climbing?
Ray’s story doesn’t offer clichés—it offers hard-earned hope. It’s the push we all need to ask: What might happen if I surrender my fear and step forward anyway?
Pull up a seat. Grab your coffee. Get quiet.
This conversation might just change the way you see your own story.
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Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my dad, dan. He owns Catron's Glass. Thanks, allie. Things like doors and windows go into making a house, but when it's your home, you expect more like the great service and selection you'll get from Catron's Glass. Final replacement windows from Catron's come with a lifetime warranty, including accidental glass breakage replacement. Also ask for custom shower doors and many other products and services. Call 962-1636. Locally owned, with local employees for nearly 30 years, kitchen's class, the clear choice.
Speaker 2:Hey, do you want to catch every episode live as it's being recorded? Log on to patreoncom slash betempered for exclusive footage, behind the scenes photos and a live recording as it takes place. Go to patreoncom slash be tempered. Welcome to the Be Tempered podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.
Speaker 3:Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.
Speaker 2:We're your host, Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.
Speaker 3:This is Be Tempered.
Speaker 2:What's up everybody? Welcome to the Be Tempered podcast, Episode number 65-ish, possibly 66, but it could be 65.
Speaker 2:We're not sure, maybe some changes, we don't know.
Speaker 2:Man, I'm going to tell you right now, today's podcast episode is going to be powerful.
Speaker 2:We are fortunate enough to have one of my rite of passage teammates, ray mackelson, in from the great province of manitoba, um, up in in canada, up in Canada, and Ray if those of you listening remember the podcast where Ben interviewed me about my rite of passage experience, ray was the leader of our group, our 18 men that took that trek through the North Georgia mountains, and Ray was an unlikely leader, but we all leaned on Ray's strength and determination to get through that that 24 hour trek, more than he knows. And, um, you know, ray, ray flew in yesterday and uh has been spending some time with with uh, the Schmidt family in Eaton, ohio and hopefully I don't think we've overwhelmed him. But I'm excited for everyone to hear Ray's story, because what you're going to find out from this episode is that you know, as remarkable of a feat as it was for Ray to complete the rite of passage, it's even more remarkable that he got on the plane to fly to Georgia to do it. And so, without further ado, ray, welcome to the Be Tempered podcast.
Speaker 4:Welcome Ray. Yeah, thank you very much for having me here. It's been just a fantastic last couple of days and, yeah, I'm just super grateful to be here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, man, we're grateful to have you here, we're grateful to hear your story. You know, you and I had a conversation on the way back from the airport yesterday to the house and then sitting outside talking and man, like this is probably going to be a little emotional for me, maybe for you as well, when we hear the story. So how we start every podcast, as you know, is we like to start from the beginning. So if you would start from childhood and lead us, we'll get into the rite of passage. So talk about childhood for you For sure.
Speaker 4:So I was fortunate enough to have fantastic parents that you know. They love me very much and I was blessed to have, you know, a great childhood, great upbringing. But always as a kid I had just a strong sense of fear, I guess, always kind of in my life. And you know, growing up I'd be, I'd be shy and nervous all the time and you know it. It started to manifest itself more and more as as I grew up and you know, some of my earliest things I can remember is just being a little kid in bed laying down and at nighttime trying to sleep, and just the total crippling fear of annihilation being something that I was always in the back of my head, like being afraid of just losing reality. I guess, and that kind of, I think, laid the framework for how I, through you know more of childhood. I, you know, experienced quite a bit of anxiety and just kind of, I would say, withdrawn behavior sometimes, and most people would probably think I was just a shy kid or whatever, a shy kid or whatever. Um, but uh, yeah, as I got into my I would say, 10 to 12 years old sort of years, that's where, uh, the first big manifestation of this came about and, um, we I was in school we watched a video on uh, the, the Hanta virus, which, um, you know, had some kind of outbreak or whatever in the 90s in New Mexico, and something about that just flipped a switch in me where I became totally obsessive over becoming spontaneously ill, you know, or or having uh, a, a spontaneous allergic reaction, anyways, it's it kind of uh started to really affect everything, like I.
Speaker 4:I can't remember exactly, um, what happened in the days like leading after that experience, but I know that, um, it became almost impossible for me to go, uh, any sort of distance anywhere that was away from from what I perceived as help. So, you know, we would try and go to the Grand Beach, which is an hour away from from our home, and that was impossible. You know, as a kid, it became it like we to. I remember the first super big panic attack that I had. We were driving out there and and we ended up having to turn around because I just was screaming and in fear of being away from what I thought was like help, whether it was a hospital or whatever. And so I think that's when, uh, my parents started really noticing oh there's, there's uh, something bigger starting to happen.
Speaker 4:And you know, like as a kid, I, I, I did, you know they probably saw some of that because, uh, I would be unusually nervous, I think, about certain things. But yeah, so that happened in my adolescence and then it kind of, you know, continued throughout. It would go through waves as I was becoming a teenager, you know, of severity, Like whether I could, you know, go do certain things with my friends or not. I'd always be kind of in the back of my mind, fearful, or like starting to think, well, what's going on? What's going on?
Speaker 4:And and uh, like I told you, dan, um, I had uh like asthma and stuff as a kid, um, where I didn't do a lot of like sports or anything like that, because as soon as I'd start running, you know, I'd start getting an asthma attack and I'm like, okay, well, that's totally in line with the fear, right, it's, it's starting to make me scared of of just dying all of a sudden. And and yeah, like I couldn't, I couldn't put on any weight or anything I couldn't. And yeah, like I couldn't, I couldn't put on any weight or anything I couldn't. Eating was always a hard thing for me. Like, as soon as I'd try eating, I'd instantly feel nauseous. So, trying to get me to eat as a child, my parents, they, they, they had a hard time with that, I think.
Speaker 2:Can you talk about your faith at that age? I mean, did you have faith? Did you understand faith?
Speaker 4:Where was that as far in your life so so we were raised Christian and, um, you know, we did go to Sunday school and things like that, and I think at that time in my life I did, I, I wanted to rely on that in some way, on that in some way. Um, but, uh, I, I didn't know how, you know, there was a. I'd say there's, there was a, there wasn't, there wasn't a personal relationship, I think, with the Lord at that time. For me, you know, it was like thinking about faith when you're that scared at that young age and you don't really know what's happening or anything. It didn't stick with me. It uh, it, it didn't. It didn't stick with me. You know, I, I, I, my mind was just too overrun, I think at the time, like I was always a very introspective kid, like to uh to a fault and it would, um, I'd never really have the ability to, to, to focus on something like that to, to focus on something like that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so you know this is going on, this. This triggers 10, 11, 12 years old and it just it continues to get a little worse and a little worse and a little worse, right.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:So talk about some more of those, those instances that you can remember where you couldn't go places and and maybe the impact that it had on your parents.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so I, I know, like going on any trips and stuff like that became a lot harder, um, trying to do things with my friends, like in as we got into high school and stuff, you know, even just sometimes going on walks to to a place that was, um, you know, a little bit far away.
Speaker 4:I'd be very, very scared and you know, I think I probably hid it well. But you know, I was never present in pretty much anything that I would do, and even in school I was always just just this feeling of doom was always on my back and yeah, I'm sure it affected almost everything I did really Like, if I look back, there's no time I can remember not being influenced by that. Um and like, for my parents, they had, uh, you know, taken me to um child psychologist when I was younger to, and that I think helped uh, I'm not sure how much it helped them understand. I'm sure it helped me start to to kind of display that there was something kind of going on, you know, um, so this, this continues to go on, but it continues to manifest worse and worse and worse and worse.
Speaker 2:Can you talk about you know, you told me some things yesterday about how you would be in certain positions, yeah, holding your knees. Yeah, kind of talk about that.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 4:So once I got to, uh, I was fortunate enough that through my later years of high school and um, early early adulthood, like around 17 and 18, the, the panic attacks sort of, and the anxiety in general, it petered out a little bit, you know, and I was able to function a little bit more normally, you know.
Speaker 4:And then when I became 19, I remember I was 19 and this it just kind of came out of nowhere, just a wicked panic attack. And again, it's always around this theme of of becoming spontaneously ill, like with some sort of reaction, and it it actually I might even remember I might have had a pineapple drink I think is what I might have had and it just made a tickle in my throat and, man, that just sent me to a place that this panic just wouldn't stop. And so it was like, you know, you'd wake up and think, okay, it'll be gone tomorrow. That fear never left and, um, it just started getting worse and worse and I would not, uh, you know I, I I'd be sitting curled up in a ball for for hours on end just worrying about this, this thing.
Speaker 4:That never happened, obviously, but um, yeah and that that continued and it got worse and worse through, uh, through my 19th and 20th year where, uh, there was a lot of time where I wouldn't go out. You know I was probably withdrawing from my relationships and it couldn't work. You know, it got to the point where I couldn't work for a while and stopped eating Because just the idea of eating food it was like, okay, this is going to give me an allergic reaction, this is going to and so I was already a skinny kid and, like, I got real skinny and it just kept manifesting until I couldn't leave the house and I'd force myself to sometimes try and go on walks. And it got. It eventually got to the point where that those didn't even happen anymore. You know, I was just stuck stuck locked in your room.
Speaker 4:Yeah, curled up in a ball yeah, yeah, like when I remember it was this time I was probably 20 and, uh, my parents brought home a house plant and uh, it was on the counter upstairs in the kitchen. And I came home and I saw that and I was so horrified that I might smell something on this plant that it would kill me, that I went to the basement and literally sat curled up in a ball for four or five hours until someone else came home, and then I would feel some sort of safety, right, but even then, you know, I couldn't go around the plant. I couldn't. You know, it was really.
Speaker 2:Tremend, tremendous fear.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and, and it was.
Speaker 4:It was displaying itself in a way that it was clearly mentally ill like there is mental illness involved and and like there would also be elements of uh, like obsessive, compulsive things. Like I, I would have to do certain things to feel that I could continue on with my day, um, in order to get past some of these things. Like I would have to do certain things to feel that I could continue on with my day, um, in order to get past some of these things. And uh, yeah, so that they, they started taking me to a, uh, another psychologist when I was 21,. You know when I would see this guy a couple of times. Um, I tried. I tried a couple other things too, I think, like hypnotherapy and stuff like that, and you know there was no solution.
Speaker 4:It just kept going and uh, I remember it eventually got to the point where we were at a um, and and I was brutally depressed at this. You can imagine, you know I wasn't, I wasn't getting out, I wasn't having fun, um, and uh, I was doing everything I could to to, you know, with we did have the internet at that time. So we were, you know, trying to. I was trying to figure things out on my own. You know what kind of solutions there and I tried every alternative sort of thing you can imagine. And um, yeah, we, I, we were at this appointment and, uh, I ended up having this panic attack during the appointment and it.
Speaker 4:It was to the point where, you know I, I told the guy like I'm ready to turn the off button on life here. The this is, this is beyond horrible and I've been dealing with that for the past couple of years. Of those thoughts, right. And so they admitted me to the hospital. I was seen right away, put in, stayed there for five days and they put me on benzodiazepines and antidepressants and you know the uh. I remember actually having a good time in the hospital because, like it was, it was um, because obviously the drugs worked, you know they. They instantly put me in a state of like. Obviously the drugs worked, right, you know they. They instantly put me in a state of like. I was just in a dream and uh, so I stayed there, got out, um and continued on the uh, the new cycle of now I'm on these meds and uh, what is, what is life like now? And so, uh, so what was life like now?
Speaker 2:And so uh so what was life like?
Speaker 4:life. Uh, you know, from my, from my point of view, it got way better, right Cause now I was able to go out again and, um, you know, I was able to, to live, to eventually get a job again. I, you know, started working, started seeing my friends again, Um, I could, uh, could, on the surface look normal. You know, there was always fear in the back of my mind and I would still get a panic attack here and there. But, yeah, I was taking these medications and thinking, okay, well, this is life. Now. There wasn't any huge adventures because I was, you know, afraid still, but I thought, well, maybe that's just who I am.
Speaker 2:You were afraid, but it wasn't debilitating like it was before, without the medication Exactly. So how long were you on the medication?
Speaker 4:Seven years total, yeah, yeah. So during this time of being on the medication, I developed like a chronic pain sort of syndrome where I was always like the tension in my body was so crazy that all the muscles in my shoulders and neck were constantly rigid and you know just headaches all the time and you know just just pain and uh the it, it got really, really, really bad. Uh, you know, there was, there was points where I, you know just laying in bed, you know, on the verge of tears because you're just so frustrated with with how much pain you're in and and uh, you know there's, there's nothing you can do about it.
Speaker 2:So what years would this have been like when you, when you, got on the medication roughly, what was the year? So I was 21.
Speaker 4:Um, so that would be, you know, 15 years ago.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 4:Um, and I would say the, the, the, the pain, you know, started very shortly after that. The pain, you know, started very shortly after that and what I believe it was now is just that inward manifestation of the anxiety, like your body's just holding on to it and there's no outlet really. And so that eventually led me to the place where, you know, I don't want to just skip over all my 20s, uh, you know I don't want to just skip over all my twenties, but you know I just lived a relatively normal life from from being 21 to about 28.
Speaker 2:But you had mentioned yesterday it was almost like a fog, right? Yes, With those drugs.
Speaker 4:Yeah, so, so, unknowing to me at the time, they really blunted my ability to feel emotions properly and you know I'd have relationships during these years and you know they'd always be fleeting and and, and you know I was always the. You know I still had a lot of fluctuation in my, in my ability to, to be normal. I guess you know like I'd have um times where I, where you know the anxiety does get the better of me and stuff like that, and the depression and things, um, and being a super introspective, inward, inwardly focused person to you, you, it almost amplifies things, right, um. So, yeah, the uh and and dealing with that, along with the pain as well, is like it's just a mixture for nothing. Good, right, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So seven years, yeah. What makes you stop the medication?
Speaker 4:Seven years. Yeah, what makes you stop the medication? So at that time I was in my job of being a tattooer, and the pain is just too much now and I'm trying to find a solution to it. And I ended up contacting a woman off the internet that I had read about. You know, she was about pain and I can't even remember specifically what it was, but I do remember she replied me and she's like oh, you're on benzodiazepines, you, that's what's happening. You've built a tolerance and they're, they're causing something in there.
Speaker 4:And I was like oh, yeah well, the the doctors have been saying for years that oh, you shouldn't be on this very long uh, which really you're only supposed to be on benzos for like two weeks max.
Speaker 2:And you're on for seven years, yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah and uh, and so I'm like, okay, well, that makes sense. Um, let's try and get off of the like. You know it should be as easy as you know. You cut them down, whatever, and that was not the way it went. It was horrible trying to get off of these.
Speaker 2:So where'd you go? What did you have to do to get off? To wean yourself off?
Speaker 4:So I first started by just breaking them into pieces, um, taking a little less each day, and now the panic attacks are starting to get strong again and I'm like, well, that's, that's not very nice, um, and so I I do my own research, trying to figure things out. Uh, the doctor I was seeing wouldn't help me at all with this. So I tried seeing another doctor and I'm like, I researched, okay, uh, valium, which is a benzodiazepine as well like I was on clonazbem, and uh, valium has a much longer half-life and I've heard of people using that uh and diluting it in water and then taking a little bit less, and then it's just gentler on your body is what it is supposed to be. So I found a doctor that would agree to that, tried doing it, and my body didn't agree with that. I dropped weight like crazy.
Speaker 2:Did you have weight to drop?
Speaker 4:No, so I'm 6'1" and I was probably 125 when I started this, and so I got to the point where I looked so horrible that I didn't even want to step on the scale, and my parents were concerned for sure.
Speaker 5:Sure.
Speaker 3:Why did the doctor not want? Like the original doctor, did he just not want you to pull off that medication? You?
Speaker 4:know he wouldn't really give me the time of day. Not want you to pull off that medication, you know I don't, he wouldn't really give me the time of day. I was just not. Uh, there was, there was no care involved you know part of the Canadian healthcare system.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly, it was uh, uh, I got nothing good to say about that, um, but uh, yeah. So I started trying, trying to do this, this, uh, valium, tapered withdrawal, and uh, it was just not working. And I found, uh, I started researching, like benzodiazepine, specific um clinics, you know, and uh, there was nothing in Canada that I could find that that would service that. And um, so what I did find was a place in San Diego to go, and that's what their their thing was, and it was the, the.
Speaker 4:The treatment was they hook you up to um, a, uh, um, a, uh vitamin solution, uh, nad, which is, uh, some derivative of B vitamins, and it uh, basically flushes out the benzos. And they say, hi, success rate, you're all good. And uh, I was like, well, that's awesome. Uh, you know it was very expensive, um, but uh, I went, we went and did it, cause, like it was, it was life or death at that time, and my parents knew that. And so my mom came down with me and, uh, just that trip, that was a hard trip to make, right, because I'm struggling to just get on a plane and because of the anxiety.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So how did you do that?
Speaker 4:Uh well, I mean, there was no. There's no other option. Your back was against the wall. Yeah, so I do it and you know you can. You can imagine what someone who's scared is like, Like I'm clinging to my mom. I'm twenty six years old.
Speaker 2:Probably a hundred pounds yeah.
Speaker 4:Yeah, and, and, and, and, just just going you know, and I didn't. At this time I didn't have faith, you know, in the Lord. It was from my perception. It was all on my own and you know I'll find out later that you know the amount of praying my mom was doing for me. That was.
Speaker 2:An amazing woman. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
Speaker 4:I'm sure my dad too, like my whole family, really they're the support that I had over my life has been, you know, fantastic, because you know, I'm sure things would have went a lot different if I didn't have that support. For sure, For sure.
Speaker 2:So you, so you go to San Diego, you go through this treatment. Do you remember what that was like?
Speaker 4:Yeah, oh yeah, so I'm hooked up to the, the IV, uh, the doctor they're very, very nice guy Um, the nurse is there too, uh and um. So you're, basically, you're just hooked up to an iv? Uh for like eight or ten hours a day and you just sit there and uh, the. They try and keep the, the, the drip as as uh steady and as fast as you can tolerate, and man, that's quite the, the, the sensation.
Speaker 4:So this, this fluid is going into you at a pretty steady degree and the, the way that they kind of uh gauge how, how much you can take is the pressure on your chest of like when this is going through into your arm. You know, you, you get to the point where it's just it's like someone standing on your chest. That's, uh, that's how it feels, it's, it's pretty wild and um, you know, I'm just there taking it and uh, we're, we're staying at a? Um, a hotel, you know, but my mom is in the room with me during the day, um, uh and uh, she's, you know, there with me and just watching me drip away, and uh, yeah, so that and, I'm sure, praying, you know that this works.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and um, the, uh, the that goes on, for I think we're there 10 or 11 days. Um, you know, and I'm I'm struggling with, with this experience, like it's uh, it's uh, each, each day is dealing with these horrible panic attacks while this is happening, and, um, because like the way these panic attacks work and it's not like I, um, because like the way these panic attacks work and the it's not like I don't even think calling it a panic attack is the right word. Right, it's just you. You feel like you're just constantly dying Like this, the, just the fear of death is just constantly upon you. Um, and uh, like it's an overwhelming sense of doom just just constantly on you and um, you know, I'll find out eventually. You know that it's, it's a disorder of some, some other type. Uh, down the road.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so you, you leave San Diego.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You go back home? Yeah, are you back to normal?
Speaker 4:No, not even close. So leaving San Diego, getting on that plane, was one of the hardest things, because I had like a few little crumbs left of these benzodiazepines left that I hadn't thrown out yet. And so the night before we leave I'm in that hotel room with my mom just losing my mind in in fear, uh, for this, this uh plane ride that we have to have. And, um, you know I, I I'm looking at these pills and I'm like I might have to do to take them again, like all this would be for nothing. And, uh, you know I, I wish I could remember the moment better, but I, I remember there was a, there was a bit of letting go there. That really happened and we ended up getting on the plane and made it.
Speaker 2:And you didn't take those pills.
Speaker 4:No no, I didn't take the pills because you know it would have ruined everything, you know. But yeah, so I threw those out. We got back home and I thought like, especially after I did get to talk to someone else who went through this and they said they were great. So I get home and I'm not great. I ended up being awake for 11 days straight after that. Just, I don't know what was going on, but my body didn't like whatever was happening and I I ended up finding out that there's something called post with acute post withdrawal system syndrome, um from Benzodiazepines 11 days yeah.
Speaker 4:Of not sleeping, of not sleeping.
Speaker 2:Where was your mind at?
Speaker 4:Oh, it was. I don't know where it was. It was. I don't know where it was. It was in such a fog, you know, like I, really I can barely remember anything of that time.
Speaker 4:You know, and the I do remember, I couldn't read things like trying to look at a gas station sign or something like couldn't couldn't even tell what I was looking at because it was blurry.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think so. I think I think my mind was just in so much of a fog that, you know, you can't really tell what's going on. And um, yeah, like, I eventually get to sleep after those 11 days and and I don't want to say I'm starting to get back to normal, but I'm starting to become a little bit more functional, you know, and in total, at that time I took off six weeks of work. And here's the thing thing too about this whole situation I am working while this is happening, like, and my parents being as supportive as they are when I was young, they always made it so that you still have to live essentially is what they instilled in me, and so I clung to working, even if it was only for two hours a day sometimes and only once or twice a week, I would still do my tattoos or whatever I need to do during during these years. And so, um, yeah, that's.
Speaker 4:I'm sure I'm sure my clients could tell I was probably like like a little bug-eyed while I'm, while I'm working. But you know, I really clung to that because otherwise you're staying at home and just like being consumed. Yeah, you're trapped yeah.
Speaker 2:So how long did this go on, where you were kind of in this fog? So you go seven years on these different medications, you go away for 10, 11, 12 days to San Diego and you come home after going through that essential detox right. And how long was this next period of your life just trying to get back on your feet?
Speaker 4:Uh, I would say that that the the withdrawal syndrome took a total of about three and a half years to work its way out and it went through various stages. There's waves and you know I read online, like there's forums or whatever of people who have experienced similar things and yeah, you go through waves and troughs of these feelings Highs and lows, Highs and lows yeah, like some days are a little more functional, some days are not.
Speaker 4:You know you go through feeling like. For me, there was this horrible feeling of, like anger and just like rage that you know I never acted upon I'm not a person who raised my voice or anything like that but it was like, like just pure hatred of, of, of all life really is is almost how I felt for a for a good chunk of this this time. Um, and like you know, your body goes through these weird feelings. Like you just feel like you're hungover or just horribly sick. You know the sensitivity to light, like you can't look outside when the sunlight touches your skin. You just feel like needles are rubbing against you All sorts, um, all all sorts, and like I was telling you to the, it took me a couple months before I could actually read again and and like decipher what I was looking at on like a page of paper.
Speaker 4:Um, just the, the, the amount of, uh damage to your brain, I guess the that, the this, this does over that period of time, um, it's, it's pretty wild, yeah.
Speaker 2:So three, three and a half years. What? What makes the switch to to where you're at now, cause you're probably from, from where you're at now to, you know, backing up to where you finally come out of that a little bit. How many years are we talking right now?
Speaker 4:Yeah, so that, um, that's about what? Six and a half years, I think. Uh, or sorry, I should say that withdrawal period lasted from when I was about 30 to or, or, let's see, I'm getting my getting my days all mixed up here.
Speaker 4:Here. I went into treatment when I was 26 or 27. Uh, so, yeah, it's probably started to become. I started to get a little bit more normal in in my early thirties. Okay, yeah, 33 and I'm 36 right now, almost 37.
Speaker 4:So what starts to happen is, you know, over that period of time, I start getting something that I had researched back in the day, after hearing about Michaela Peterson and her carnivore diet, and so I remember reading about this nurse who treated people with agoraphobia, which is, I guess, what you would call what I had which is, I guess, what you would call what I had just the fear of being out and away from help and she treated them with high doses of B vitamins. And so I tried it. I just went to the store, bought some B1 and B6, and I took them in high doses and within about two weeks, uh, the the feeling of doom that was always around me was gone. I just woke up one day. I was like, oh, that's different. And uh, then I started to put the pieces together. Like, well, if I I just researched, what do b vitamins do in your body? Well, they metabolize carbohydrates. And so I thought, well, if she's got rid of all the carbs and she's doing great. Maybe it's time to try that, and I do.
Speaker 4:I go on carnivore diet. It takes about two months of adjusting to it. You know your body takes a couple months. But yeah, I became like a new person. All all the uh, the fear, the panic I haven't had a panic attack since. Um, all the, the doom gone, the asthma gone, like the the I I had uh, like uh kind of a rash that was all over my chest for years and years Gone. It was crazy, just wild how, and it's like you literally become different, like a whole new person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it is, you know, just crazy to start living life and you're like, oh wow, I'm alive now. Yeah, and it is, you know, just crazy to start living life and you're like, oh wow, I'm alive now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for 30 plus years of your life, you lived in this tremendous fear.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And then all of a sudden, it's like you're born again, mm-hmm. So where do you go with that?
Speaker 4:So, you know, I just start, you know, living a normal life, enjoying things now that I didn't get to enjoy before. But I mean, there's remnants right of these things. So, you know, I'm still even though now I can go for a drive, you know, to the beach, whatever, and I can make it you know, there's always like that background. It's almost like fear becomes a habit, right, um, and you're, you're still still fighting that to some degree in all things, like I, I picked up hunting and I really enjoyed that and uh, you know, it was a real challenge for me to go to these remote places, sometimes by myself, and like I'm, I'm sitting there and I'm still struggling. Uh, even though the, the I feel like the problem is actually gone, the, the it, it's like it leaves a scar, you know, on your, on your soul, to a degree where you've got to uh, go through that and and deal with it and um, yeah, so, uh, but overall I'm my, but overall my quality of life has improved substantially and, yeah, things are good.
Speaker 2:So, with everybody hearing that story, you know, and how you and I met was, you know, in the North Georgia mountains on our 24 hour trek.
Speaker 4:Yes.
Speaker 2:So you know, I want everybody to keep that in mind here's a guy who was essentially trapped in your room in the fetal position for hours upon hours of a time, because you may have been scared of a plant that your parents brought home or picking up some sort of disease or something you were just you know home, or picking up some sort of disease or something you were just you know, completely shut down in your bedroom, trapped for many, many years to go through all those things. And then you decide, at some point in time, faith comes back in your life and you decide I'm going to sign up for a 24-hour trek with some Navy SEAL and a bunch of crazy other dudes. So kind of fast forward to that point where faith comes back in your life. You are introduced to Chad Wright and the 3 of 7 Project, and why in the world you would even consider signing up for something? Because had you been on a plane?
Speaker 4:yes, before that yeah, yeah, I had uh a couple times, but again, those times were all with uh drugs you know, yeah, like, uh, I went, I went overseas, uh, and, and I was on clonazepam the whole time. You know, the, uh, uh, the, and, and I did, um, I think I probably went on a plane maybe twice after the this whole thing, uh, after I got off of the drugs, um, but you know it's, it was extremely uncomfortable for me, uh, it's, it's very hard and so so.
Speaker 2:So when did faith start to come back in your life?
Speaker 4:I would say it, it, it started building over the last two years two, two, two to three years. It started, uh, building itself and I I didn't even know realize that that's what was happening. Um, but uh, there's just little things that start kind of creeping in, uh, where you start realizing things and and um, you know, I've always thought a lot about morality and what is good and what is evil in my mind, and and it uh that that led me, I think, in the direction a bit as well as the fact that I, um, and I think this comes with having a lot of problems is that you become inwardly focused, uh, like I was already an introspective person, but when you you start being consumed by your problems, your problems become bigger than everyone else's to you, and and it leads to selfishness. And you know, after coming out of the, the withdrawal period, you know I was, I, I was so disgusted with myself and how selfish I was just in my thinking and and and everything that that you know, I felt like I couldn't love at all.
Speaker 4:I couldn't, I couldn't, my ability to love was, was gone, and you know, the, the realization I have now is is that you know, god is love. That is, that's where, that's where the love truly is, and it's in that, that that's where the love truly is. And it's in that sacrifice of yourself to others that love is truly shown. And realizing that Jesus was that in its perfect is, it just cracked me right open and uh, and that's how I found him.
Speaker 2:That's amazing, yeah, so at some point you decide or you hear about this rite of passage thing with the three of seven project. Kind of talk about that and what made you think I need to do that?
Speaker 4:So I'd say, um, it was. It was this past October that I signed up for it. Uh, we were on, my girlfriend and I, uh, we were on our way back to Winnipeg from Boston, we went there for a concert and, uh, on the way back, I was listening to a podcast with Chad and, uh, and he talked about, um, the, the rite of passage, and you know, he said, oh yeah, it's the hardest thing that we offer, and I don't know something about it just uh, clicked and I was like, yeah, this is what I gotta do. And and and I remember telling francesca my girlfriend, I was like, yeah, I gotta do this. And so this is, um, so october is what? Six, seven or eight months ago?
Speaker 4:um yeah and uh. So the right about this time is when I'm starting to truly realize that that, uh, jesus is the way, and it was probably only you know, like I. I think I was already realizing this at that time because I was getting more involved with learning about his sacrifice and just the. I think I was looking more into the intellectual side of that of of that and, um, I started wanting to go to church and I was like watching tele, or not televised, but like, um, virtual church sessions and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah exactly yeah and, and it just started becoming more and more apparent that this is that god is real, and that this is that God is real, and that this is this is it. This is the truth, and yeah, that's when I like. Very shortly after I had signed up for that, I gave my life to Christ and the fruits of that have been just unbelievable.
Speaker 4:You know as soon as that happened and uh like, and the biggest is is being able to love, uh to, to love other people and um, the, the. I mean you can't, you can't put a price on that. It's unbelievable, you can't, no, yeah.
Speaker 2:So you sign up, mm-hmm, you give your life to Christ. Yep, the event is the end of June, right? What kind of training did you do?
Speaker 4:So my perception of what the rite of passage was is it was. I underestimated it severely. So you know, at first we get back and it's October and I'm like, yeah, I'm going to train, I'm going to get up every day and go and climb. We've got a pretty steep hill. It was a landfill but now it's a park.
Speaker 4:I'm like I'm gonna climb this thing every day and uh, in my mind I've built it up like, yeah, I'm gonna start a half an hour a day and then build up. So I did. I started getting up at five in the morning going to this hill, doing it up and down, for started a half an hour and like it never progressed more than that. There was one day. There was one day where my, where my timer didn't go off and I did 45 minutes. But but then winter comes and you know that hill becomes just pure ice. You can't even go up it. It's so steep. So, um, yeah and uh, and so I just you know what everyone in Winnipeg pretty much does is we just withdraw for the winter and do nothing.
Speaker 5:You know what?
Speaker 4:everyone in Winnipeg pretty much does is we just withdraw for the winter and do nothing? And for anyone listening who doesn't know, it gets to minus 40 Celsius there, Like it's horrible, yeah and yeah. So then once summer starts coming around, I do go back to the hill a bit more once the snow starts thawing, but I didn't take any sort of serious training involved, and so about a month before the thing, my girlfriend and I we decided okay, well, we got to start going on some walks here, so the first one we go on is probably a month and a half before the ROP, and it's a before the ROP and it's a.
Speaker 4:We walk 15 kilometers and that was a rude awakening and but you know, whatever I was like, okay, I got to start taking it more seriously and then so I do start doing a lot more like exercising and stuff like that. And then you know, a month later or two weeks later, we do 40 kilometers, which that's pretty good go, we did it in nine hours. Her dad came with us, okay, and that was actually so fun. But during this thing. So I had experienced once before that when I tried getting into running a couple years back and I did a 10K and through the 10K I ended up getting ITB syndrome, like I can't pronounce it, I ileothelial band or whatever it is.
Speaker 4:Anyways, it's a super painful thing where you've got this big band of tissue on the side of your leg that goes from your hip to your knees and it starts rubbing against your knee because of tension and becomes super painful. And so when I did that 10 K, um, you know that started hurting at about six kilometers in and uh, and I I had come. You know, I dealt with it that day and it was, it was really painful, but, um, you know, whatever, and I I didn't really think much about that until I like it was in the back of my mind a bit, but during the hill climbs and stuff it never bothered me. So I was like, oh, maybe it's all better. Um, fingers crossed, yeah, so we do this 40 K walk and uh, on kilometer 15, it starts coming back and I'm like, oh no, by kilometer 18, it's like, oh, the pain's about an eight or nine out of ten.
Speaker 4:And uh, I'm starting thinking, oh, this is some some rough stuff here yeah and then you know we continue the whole 40 and by the end of the 40 I'm like oh, I can't extend my legs anymore like my knees. I'm doing like a stiff walk, like like a like a peg leg kind of walk, because it's extremely painful 40k is how many miles?
Speaker 4:I was waiting for you to do the math it's 24 miles okay yeah, about half of what we did, yeah, and so the night after that we get home and we're all, we're all sore, but I'm like extremely, extremely sore and uh, I'm in bed at night and the pain is like excruciating, absolutely excruciating, and, um, I end up like I can't really go up and downstairs. You got to kind of like like crab walk almost to get up and down down to the bed, like from the bedroom to them, and so I came down the the following morning and it was like unbelievable how painful it was. Um, and uh, you know, I, I, I didn't, I, I honestly thought that I wouldn't be able to do the rap because it was so bad. Like I thought, oh, I'm gonna have to drop out, like I don't even know if I'm gonna be functional, because after I did that 10k, it took a few days before I could even bend my knees and yeah.
Speaker 4:But now the crazy thing is, I came downstairs that day, I went into the shower and I put my hands on my knees and I like, just in tears, like said to the Lord, if you can take this away, please, if it's your will, do it. And no joke, I walked out of there like nothing even happened out of the shower and it was like I was in shock. I show Francesca and I'm like it's like, wow, that's pretty wild. That's pretty wild and that, along with a couple other things before that, led up to the ROP, led me to really believe that's where I was supposed to be. Because, yeah, like, what do you do about that, right, when you experience that?
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:You asked and received Mm-hmm when you, when you experienced that yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you, you asked and received and, uh, yeah, so. So then, fast forward to getting on the plane. I mean, knowing your story, that's what blew me away yesterday as we talked and just, I mean everybody. Think about what Ray's talked about. You know, growing up and the and the battles he faced and all those challenges, um, in your life, and the anxiety and the stress and all that stuff that you had had been through mentally. And now it's time to get on a plane by yourself, fly to the States to go through something you know is going to hurt, Like I. I know how I felt, I know the anxiety that I felt, but I didn't battle what you battled. So talk about that time going to the airport, getting on the plane and making that flight yeah.
Speaker 4:So the the day before I'm supposed to go on the plane, um, I, uh, I have a little daily Bible verse that pops up and the one I get is from Isaiah, and it's those who hope in the Lord will renew their strength and they will soar on wings like eagles and they will run and not, they will walk and not grow weary, they will run and not grow faint.
Speaker 4:And hopefully I said that one properly. But, man, seeing that at that timing, it was just like, oh, okay, that put a lot of confidence in me that I'm going the right place, place, and so, um, that, uh, that was always in the back of my mind as I'm getting on this plane and I'm going into the, the, uh, it's a, it's a flying's a struggle for me, um, but, uh, you know I'm, I'm at a place now where I do have faith and it's um, and it's doable for me, you know, and I get there and I, and as soon as I land, you know you get the relief of, okay, I'm not in the sky anymore, and, uh, and, and I get, I land in Atlanta and uh, I I end up having fun there.
Speaker 4:You know, I'm just by myself driving around this big city and I go to the aquarium and it's super cool and everything. And uh, then I go to my hotel and start start realizing what's what's about to happen. And uh, I wake up the next day and make the two and a half hour drive up to Rome and it's hot.
Speaker 5:It's so much hotter than I was expecting.
Speaker 3:It's hotter than Canada huh, oh, man, man.
Speaker 4:So the humidity, and I'm just like that fear starts coming back where I'm like I'm not prepared for heat. I've had heat stroke before and it's horrible and I'm like the doubts start creeping in. I'm like am I going to get sick out there? Am I going to?
Speaker 4:you know start. Am I going to die because of heat stroke? Am I going to whatever? And it starts that I'm doing a good job of keeping that like cyclical thinking of of horrible stuff at bay. Um, you know, it's definitely not like like what it used to be, where it's all consuming, but you know that that fear is still there and it's so frustrating to come that far and to to still have that um and uh. But whatever, I'm like I came this far, let's keep going.
Speaker 4:Um, and and I even said to myself when I was in Rome, after I had lunch there, I was just like man, I could, I could go home right now and I've, I've, I've done more for this than like I'd be happy is what I thought at that time. That's what I told myself. And uh, but I'm like, oh, the let's keep going. So I go there, uh, make it to the campsite and uh, I'm the third person to show up. Uh, billy and um and Matt are both there, yeah and uh, so they're awesome to to be the first ones that I meet them. And and uh, they're super cool. Uh, but I'm sitting there and they're they're not struggling with the heat and I'm sitting there. I'm like man, I'm just kind of pouring water on myself and, um and uh, everyone starts showing up and and I look around and I'm like, oh man, these are everyone's fit, everyone's, you know.
Speaker 4:I start thinking, well, I'm in the wrong place here, and like it's pretty apparent that I'm the smallest guy, physically not even comparable to everyone else, and I'm thinking, man, I'm in for it, you know.
Speaker 2:Well, little did you know. We were all thinking the same thing Exactly, and we all face the same anxiety.
Speaker 4:And and you know you expressing that to me, uh, before we we started really did help so much. You know, just just uh, you know, relieving and and and sharing that experience yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, just just to let everybody know that you know, hey, no matter how strong I might've looked, or, or Tucker or any of these other men looked like, we're still human, like we were all still full of, of anxiety and stress and doubt. You know, have we done enough training? What's this going to? Like the heat? You know I hadn't been able to train in that either, and so, uh, we all face those same fears. But but again, knowing your story like it is, it's truly remarkable that you did fly into Atlanta and then make the trek up there to do it, cause, like you said, you could have very easily turned around and went home and been like you know what I gave it my best and probably felt okay.
Speaker 4:Yeah.
Speaker 2:But it would have been a whole different experience, not just for you but, for, you know, 17 other men, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we set up camp Chad comes talk about uh, and I, I want to, I want to. I haven't told this story yet. You know, you and I talked about it, you obviously know. So Chad comes in right and and Blake and chili and cornbread, and they kind of lay the ground rules and talk about what, what to expect and what the rules are and all those things, and then they do a bag check.
Speaker 2:Well, me, being the selfish person that I am, you know one of the items on the mandatory list was a raincoat. And so, you know, ray and I are next to each other on the picnic table, got our bags all opened up and Chad's coming around and I hear he's checking somebody beside me and I hear him say you got. The first thing he said was you got your raincoat. And I thought, oh shit, I left the raincoat at the house on purpose because I thought I, I'm going to welcome the rain, like, if it rains, I will gladly accept the water soaking me. And uh, I mean, I'm just in my mind now. I'm panicking, like, like, is he not going to let me go? So he comes in, let me see your rain gear and I kind of mumbled, fumbled around and and you instantly spoke up and you said, hey, I got an extra raincoat and I'm like Holy cow and now I know you are Jesus because of everything that we went through.
Speaker 2:But that experience was like you know. That started to expose how selfish of a person I was, because I the mandatory list wasn't that big and we'd had it. That's the only thing that we'd had for six months prior. To know what was, you know, to expect. And here I didn't bring it. If you want to show it up, I don't know, maybe they wouldn't have let me go, I don't know. I don't know what the rule would have been. Um, so right there, you saved me, you know, and that wasn't, that wasn't the first time. So to kind of talk about that experience for you, as we were, as we were doing the gear check and going through that night, so so Chad comes and sits us all down and he the.
Speaker 4:The thing that really rattled me is like he he starts saying this is not a place where you come and just try to do your best and then you get to quit. Know, part way through he says there's there's real consequences for your, for your actions out there. That there's. There's not if, if, like, we're going into remote places where there, if you need to get out, you you got to walk out. You know there's no, there's no one coming to save you. And I never thought about that, as you know, uh, and that that shook me right up because I'm like man, that is the thing that I am most scared of is being somewhere far away from help and and having something happen and, um, and man that's that just said a, a type of type of thinking that really took me to some, some bad places throughout that night.
Speaker 4:And so, uh, as soon as he said that, you know we go through the gear check and everything, and I'm so flustered, I'm trying to figure out what I need and I probably I probably went back and forth from my tent to the car, to the bag like five times and didn't even do anything I was so mixed up, man and um and uh yeah. Then then the night came and we we've as a team, decided okay, we're getting up at 315.
Speaker 2:Now hold on back up a little bit, because we divided up into teams and we had to select leaders. Oh, that's right, yep yep, we selected leaders and you were selected team one's leader.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, so it was, the two youngest guys were nominated and it was, uh, casey and I and, um, what'd you think about that? You know, I, I was kind of I don't want to say I was happy about it, but I was like, okay, well, if, if it's, if this is going to be the hardest thing, then let it be the hardest thing, um, so, so I was like I'm okay with that responsibility. You know, I'm not, I'm not a good leader, like that type of personality, I don't think. But I, I care about doing that, so so I'll do it.
Speaker 2:You were the perfect leader. You really were. Thanks, man so starts to get dark, we all go to bed or try to talk.
Speaker 4:Talk about your experience in your tent so my tent was the uh, I got it for 40 dollars, uh, because it was the the smallest thing I could find and it was literally just the size of my body.
Speaker 2:Yeah um, you look like you were the hot dog and your tent was the bun.
Speaker 4:Exactly, it was so horrible, there was no ventilation on it, it was raining, it was raining, it was hot, it was hot, and I was just in there, petrified, cooking, and just covered in sweat. I've got, I've got this one little bottle of liquid IV next to me and, uh, and I'm, I'm so scared that I got up four times throughout the night to pee. I didn't, I didn't sleep a single wink at all. Um, I probably peed two liters of water. That's how, like, just fear pee, you know. And I get back in my tent each time and I'm like drinking, I drink half of this thing and I'm like I'm going to be so dehydrated in the morning.
Speaker 4:And like and I'm watching the time tick away we got no service. I'm like desperately trying to get my phone reception to get like a Bible verse for encouragement really. And you know, the time just keeps going and I'm just like getting more into dread really and it's three o'clock rolls around. I got up at three. It was 3.15 that everyone was supposed to be up. I got up at three, just started walking around and just not having a good time. Yeah, just worry fear, doubt.
Speaker 2:So, everybody wakes up, we all get our stuff and you know cause we had to be ready between four and eight, um, and you know we're all just sitting there ready, waiting. I mean that was, uh, I remember sitting next to you on the picnic table and you know, I know how I felt and I remember looking at you and I could just see it in your face, you know, like tremendous fear and um and anxiety, and you know just trying to be encouraging. You know cause we were all feeling the same thing, um, so you know we go through that time, would you say mentally. Well, I'm not even going to say that. You know that that was a very difficult time for, I think, for all of us for me it was probably the most challenging time was that that night before.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Just that stress and that anxiety and that doubt. I had never really felt something that powerful where I just felt like what have I done? Yeah and um, so let's fast forward. They, they, they pick us up, and now we're on our way to the trail.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, so we're, we're on our way. Um, I, I actually really enjoyed that.
Speaker 4:Uh, that drive there cause I, I'm sitting up at the front, uh, I, I've got the. So, um, even before we got going, um, I was super impressed with with everybody there. Like everyone was awesome, the personalities, the genuineness of everyone there, incredible. So that was really cool and just knowing you got a bunch of really awesome guys behind you is fantastic. And then I'm sitting up at the front, blake and Chili, blake's driving, chili's in the passenger seat, and you know, I got to have a nice little conversation with them just about faith and you know just how things are going and I really enjoyed that. They were awesome. And I seen two armadillos on the road. I never even seen an armadillo before, and so that was cool.
Speaker 4:But then, you know, after, after that drive, we get to the place and I look up and, oh, like that's a mountain, that's a real mountain, you know. And so the doors open and and chili explained, like the way this works is, I start going and you guys get into formation and there's no fussing around. It's like you're going and those doors open and we weren't the cleanest uh getting out of here, and so, um, team, team, uh, 2 ends up being in front. We get out there. It's not clear who's going first. And so we get a little bit of a kick in the butt from Chad. And so Team 2 starts going, and they're going fast up that hill. And that was shocking how not only how the pace that they started off with, but the rate of incline of elevation change. I was like, oh man, this first half hour is brutal man.
Speaker 4:It's way more than I was expecting, yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I have the same feeling. I thought this pace is going to be difficult to maintain for me. And then, looking around at some of the other guys, thinking it's not just going to be me that's going to be struggling with this. So we take off, we're trucking through, we finally catch up. I think Jamie may have yelled up front I don't know if Alan was in front, or whoever was in front was like hey, slow the pace down, we're not going to be able to maintain this. Not everybody's going to be able to maintain this. At what point in time did you start to feel it, start to feel some pain?
Speaker 4:Um, it was. It was about two hours in, I think that it became really apparent that, okay, that that knee thing that I was hoping was not going to be an issue is a serious thing, like it's showing itself. And we went up right and on the decline, the first decline, that's when I was like, oh man, this is way too soon for this to be happening.
Speaker 2:You got 22 hours to go, yeah.
Speaker 4:And so that started happening and I was like whatever, it's just pain. I can't show it Like. The atmosphere that this team had, you know it was that the team was first right and I think that probably caught all of us. We didn't understand what that meant. No, we didn't, you know, because to sign up for this it probably is a secondary thing to think about the team. You're thinking what can I do? How far can I go? But um, the, the realization is like okay, now I'm part of this team, they are counting on me and I can't show that it's a problem and I tried not to for the first bit.
Speaker 4:You know, I really did my best to, but I think that the limp became apparent, uh, fairly quickly, um, and I know, once we got to that first resupply, uh, you could tell their reaction from chad that I was like, oh, there's some doubts on this guy, and I was still water all over myself and I was like I was so flustered, um, because that that was the, the, the course was so much harder than what I was expecting. You know, I I didn't know that we were really climbing mountains, cause that's what we were doing, man, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:So we get through that, for the first resupply was a little chaotic, cause it was our first one not really knowing what to do. I think we got through it pretty good as a team and that set the foundation for the next ones to come. But I didn't, I didn't notice your struggle until after it, when we got close to that second resupply and we started coming down that fire road. And that's when, um, I started to notice you know you were. You were four or five guys up ahead of me and I could start to see you limping and then I'd hear Chad yell out up at you or, if we weren't in in front, he was wanting you to be in front.
Speaker 2:Um, you or Casey, or Wesley in some cases, um, but talk about that when we started coming down that mountain to that second resupply and I think it was Scott that grabbed your bag first to try to help you kind of go through that sequence of events. Cause that's where I feel like for me I can't speak for the other guys and maybe I can't speak for you, but I feel like that was the moment that kind of galvanized us as a team, like it could have went the complete opposite way than what it did.
Speaker 2:So, talk about that experience coming down that mountain before that second resupply.
Speaker 4:Yeah. So, um, coming down there, the, the, the pain was already. It was full full power. Basically it was.
Speaker 4:It was really bad, um and uh the even even before that moment happened, the, the, the care that was starting to be shown.
Speaker 4:Like I, I was struggling, even on that first ascent, with, with, with, just in taking calories, and I was so fortunate to have Ryan behind me who had done these, these, some of the trails nearby, like he was familiar with it and he's an experienced trail guy and you know he provided me with some honey and stuff and that snapped me right back and I started to understand how important it was to actually keep the food going and and like that.
Speaker 4:But man, he, having him behind me, caring about and kind of instructing me and guiding me, like what you're going to be feeling and stuff, super important. Then, as we're coming down that, to that second resupply and having, uh, the, the people behind me start saying you got this ray, like and and starting to notice and and, uh, you know, showing that they cared, was, was pretty massive. And then, you know, showing that they cared, was pretty massive. And then you know Scott coming and taking my bag, like I remember when he asked me do you want me to take this bag from you? And I didn't. No one wants to be the guy, right, but I was like it has to. I can't so sure you know, has to.
Speaker 4:I can't so sure, you know, just having the, the humility, I guess, to be able to, to, to let go of that your pride there and be like I'm a, like I, I can fully admit I was a wreck, like physically not, I'm not capable of this on my own so it like I was so grateful for that. Um, and yeah, we, we started going down to this second resupply. Uh, you know, I don't have my bag anymore. I'm looking like a, you know, pretty rough and uh, and and Chad starts showing up. Ray, you look like you need a Coke and uh, you know that, adding some, some lightness to it, you know, I think that really did help. Yeah, um, yeah and uh, and the fact that that at that second resupply, um, that people helped me, you know, fill my bottles up and and and got me straight, like that, that I can't be grateful enough. More great Like.
Speaker 4:I can't, I can't express my gratitude for that. Yeah, you know, and that continued throughout this whole day. Um and uh, yeah, it was powerful.
Speaker 2:It was. It was powerful at some point in time. Where was your mind at as far as like faith and um, did you ever, you know, like what you did in the shower when you're, when he was killing you after you did that training? Did you ever, you know, pray and say I need you, oh, constantly.
Speaker 4:It was from the, from the moment we literally got going and me realizing, oh, this is so much worse than I was expecting. Um, I, I, I was, I was praying that whole day, just just constantly. You know, uh, asking to, for you know, if he can take the pain away, take it away. If not, you know, let me bear it. Um, if not, you know, let me bear it. And you know, give me the strength to go. And I really did keep my gratitude for still being there. Like I knew how important it was to be there, like there never once did, did I ever, um, get angry or spiteful at at this situation? You know, um, but like it was, so it was just so hard.
Speaker 2:It was so hard and yeah, but you kept taking the step, but you kept, I step, but you kept, I mean you were in the front of the pack, you kept taking that step, you, you kept moving forward.
Speaker 2:Um, it was incredible to, to be a part of and to see, to witness, yeah, um, and like I've said before I I don't know what would have happened if you would have quit um, because you were that, that leader, um, whether you think you were or not, you were who we were all following, no matter how fast or how slow. It was truly, truly incredible and that's why you're here, because my wife, she's like you. You got to get Ray in person because it's obvious that he had, you know that you had a tremendous impact on me and my experience, you know, and my faith journey, you know, along that whole track. It just was an amazing experience At any time, were you done?
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, experience at any time. Were you done? Oh yeah, there I I truly felt like I was done, even before we we got going to to some degree like I, I just felt so defeated a lot. But you know, there was always something, whether it was a look, a smile from you or or one of the other guys, um, or there was always one thing there that was just like just enough to keep me in it and uh, and that it was amazing, the timing of things throughout the day, because each time that I was at the end of the rope, you know, there was something there and I'm one of the biggest turning points was when we were, when we were going through that. It was a rocky decline section.
Speaker 4:After this, after the first resupply I think, um, it was the first or second resupply- it was when cornbread came up and talked to me that first time and uh, you know, like, like I, I truly wanted this experience to be something where I learn how to surrender. That was my, that was my why, you know. And uh, and he came up to me and and started talking about that, like what surrender really is to the Lord. And, you know, one of the things he said that really shook me was that, you know, the Lord might have put these rocks all on this trail here just for you to stumble over, as long as it's, you know, given the glory to him. You know it's here for you to surrender to. That's what this whole pain is. And in realizing that and like knowing, because I didn't know what surrender was, I didn't know what it was to give yourself to something fully before this and to let the Lord do his work. You hear about that, you hear people say it oh, just give it to the Lord. What even is that? What is faith? And that? What is what is faith? And that that's where it is. It's, it's in that release, uh, of your own will, and it's like I, I remember, after he had talked to me about that and I was thinking, like I.
Speaker 4:I'm in so much pain and so much fear here. I don't want to, I don't even want to try to be here, and so I said I was just like Lord put it in me to have the put it in my heart, to want to persevere, because I don't even want that. And he did Like and that that is the. The crazy thing is, when that started, when that started waking up in me throughout the day, um, it was like it's unexplainable how, how strong that that was. Um, and and as the day progressed you know there was, there was some highs and lows, but you know, into the night that came fully out and it was, uh, it, it was one of the best things I've ever felt in my life.
Speaker 2:Yeah, to truly surrender, yeah, yeah, and to continue to take that step, because you know, we talked about it yesterday where I felt, like you know, in the beginning for me was was difficult because you know I we don't have mountains here in Ohio and Indiana, I mean, it's pretty flat, you've seen it Um, so that was a hard thing to train for. In the spring in Ohio it's fairly cool. We don't have the humidity until we get into where we're at now and in in July and August. So I couldn't train for that, um, but I felt like, as the longer we went, the stronger that I got.
Speaker 2:You know, we talked yesterday about climbing up to the top of the mountain, the last mountain. I think that was the fourth resupply and that was the best I'd felt. I mean, just like I felt like better than I had ever felt in any training and was like man, like this is, I got this, but then you know, a couple hours later coming down, you know it's like you start hallucinating because you're so tired and you're seeing things, and you know you talked about some things that you saw and asked if I'd seen them.
Speaker 2:I don't remember seeing that. But you know, so I know we were a lot of hallucinating because of our exhaustion, but you know, it was just amazing, how you know, for me I felt like the longer it went, the stronger that I got, and and I felt like you know that was coming off of you because of seeing the struggle in the beginning, but then, as coming down the mountain, uh, you know, there towards the end, as we're getting into the early morning hours, I felt like you got stronger. I mean you, you were still struggling, right, I mean we were all struggling, but, um, it didn't seem as visible, you know, and I I think that really galvanized us again as a team. Like it was very apparent to me when we got to that four, three supply on top of the mountain. Like I don't think we're losing anybody.
Speaker 5:Like.
Speaker 2:I think we've got this. I mean, there's guys struggling, but we got this like nothing's going to stop us now. Um, it was. It was remarkable.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah. And like as the day, as we got, I would say, into the afternoon and uh and evening of that first day there, that, um, you know, the, the personalities started meshing really well and and we, we were starting to get to know each other and, like the, I don't think there could have been a better group of people, right, right, like each, each person took a role on their own to to to do a part of it, and it was incredible and just to hear people encouraging others when they needed it, you know, just wild, like when we were going down towards the third resupply, that was the hardest decline. The hardest part of the whole day, I think for me was that section, because it was all down and um, uh, like my knees were gone and uh and we were just getting the dinner time.
Speaker 4:Yeah and um, you know for there was a section of there where Casey was behind me and uh, chad was kind of razzing, I think, to go a little quicker and and like I was in agony just like nails being driven through my knees and uh, casey was just like you got this, man, don't even, don't even think about what they're saying, Just just keep it going. You're doing like like he, he just had the right thing to say at the right time and it was just genuine. You know, just care, and man.
Speaker 2:So when we completed, we got to the end and we were making that trek back individually. What were you thinking? How were you feeling?
Speaker 4:I was just grateful there was, there was, uh, there wasn't a sense of like a relief, like, oh yeah, we're done, it was just peace. And that peace continued for ever since, really, because it's I got to me. What I experienced was full assurance that the Lord is with me, and to know that I don't think anyone can really comprehend what that actually means, uh, and but, but it's like it really made me understand that all you, you, you, if you have the faith, he's, he's there and he, he will fulfill what he says he will do. He will be the protection that you need, the guidance that you need and the help that you need, and it will all be provided. And that's all I could feel. You know, I really I felt it truly. And how could you not just feel peace with that?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and that in that environment, after what we had went through, that group of men, seeing the thing you know, seeing your struggle, casey, I mean we were all struggled, um, not everybody showed it visibly, um, but there's no doubt everybody was showing uh, had dealt with with all their own different struggles throughout that time. And that's a good answer piece, because, you know, I've been trying to think, going back on that moment at the end, and it's like, man, what did I feel? Like I, it wasn't like one of those, you win a, you win a championship, you know, playing on a football team or a sport, it was. It was that feeling of peace, it was, you know, it was a feeling of accomplishment, like we had done this. But it wasn't like a, a woohoo moment. For me it was just like a wow, like we did it. Yeah, I didn't do it, we did it, you know, we did it together.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, and the, the realization of of that, we yeah yeah, and the realization of that we is like it's pretty incredible. It is, yeah, and it's like a realization of what you need to let go of to be that we.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for the betterment of your teammates. Ben, what questions do you have for ray that you can think of?
Speaker 3:well, it's kind of a one for both you guys, because both you guys went into it for individual reasons. Right, it's not like you were part of a community and then joined it and but you both mentioned like the, the finishing as a we and like that team I I know you said that you it kind of clicked. Was it the night before when it started clicking, when you first started talking to each other, or when did you? I know there was times in the, you know, in the track, I think, where you said that that's when you felt like you guys were together, but you realized it before that it's going to be like a unit type thing. When did you guys kind of realize that?
Speaker 2:I would say you know when we were when I would say, you know, when we were, when we even just first met and everyone was in the circle right and and uh I think it might've been John uh text that that guys really stepped up and were like, hey, we're going to do this as a team.
Speaker 2:you know we're and and for me, you know it had been all about me. You know, the whole time, you know, I I did a little more training than you and I didn't battle the same demons in my mind and anxiety. You know, during those trainings I was excited for it but it was all about me. Like it was all about what had I, what I had done, what am I going to endure, how am I going to get through this? And uh, they started talking about team and uh, you know, we're going to complete this together. And I was thinking, well, I'm going to complete it. I don't know what the rest of you guys are, but that kind of set the tone for me. And then, you know, planted the seed, like, okay, we are a team, you know we are a group.
Speaker 2:But it didn't really hit until, like, again, for me I've said it a couple of times it's coming down to that second resupply, when I was right behind you with your bag and just just seeing the pain and the agony that you were in and how every step, I mean it, dude, you look brutal. I mean it was brutal. Like I thought a couple of times I'm like it was going through my mind Okay, how? Carrying his bags one thing, but how are we going to? Are we going to have two guys carrying Ray?
Speaker 2:Like how's this going to work? Like that's really going to suck. You know, if we got to carry a guy, I mean, that's how, that's how bad it was. Um, but that was that moment. You know, jamie was like you ain't quitting here, right? Oh man, yeah, you know, you're not quitting here and uh, that's when it kind of hit me like all right, we've got this, it ain't about me.
Speaker 3:It's about we and uh, so that's that's what it was for me. Yeah, what was your movie saying, Like when you guys, I think his was your killing me smalls?
Speaker 2:Yeah, from.
Speaker 4:Sandlot, mine was I'll be back. That's a good one. That's a really good one.
Speaker 3:I like that. Um, so the the flight was that your first flight by yourself? Because I know before you said you know, when you got on the flight you had your mom with you, yeah, and stuff like that.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I went once when I was 23 to Germany, but I mean, that was.
Speaker 3:I was so and that was meds.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I was so medicated I don't even remember the flight, but yeah, I was so and that was meds.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I was so medicated I don't even remember the flight, but um, so, even the flight to Georgia, that would have been your first flight with no meds or anything, then by yourself by myself.
Speaker 4:Yes, yeah, yeah, that is crazy.
Speaker 5:Yeah.
Speaker 2:That's what I say. You know, everybody's heard me talk about you, you, and when we did my recap, and then when you were talking yesterday, I'm like, oh my gosh, like it, it is almost, it's not. It's a miracle that you even signed up, showed up, and then you were elected the leader of our group out of all those men, and you were the reason that we all completed. You know, I mean, yes, it was a team effort, but you, I mean, I'm telling you, you were that beacon of light up ahead of us, that it was like and I've said it before if Ray ain't quitting, none of us are quitting. And so it was the most powerful experience that I've had in my life, where I know that Jesus was present, present and he was present in you, which, in return, put him in all of us. Um, like it was. It was remarkable. I mean truly was. Yeah.
Speaker 3:And I obviously I wasn't. I wasn't there, but listening to your story coming up, I think you did like a great job just explaining everything that you went through, like all the fears and everything that you had to overcome to come to this point, and then you know when faith came into it. You know the Bible verse, isaiah, when it popped up right and then, all of a sudden, okay, I got this, god, thank you for giving me the prayer.
Speaker 3:And then, all of a sudden, doubt starts creeping back in. Then what happens? The knee pain. And then you're in the shower like God, if you can't just take away my pain and my knees. And then what?
Speaker 4:happens, it does away right.
Speaker 3:Then you go and it's almost like you know, you're praying the whole entire time when you're there.
Speaker 3:you could have gave up, you could have not went, but you went. And then you're just like God, you know, if you can't take the pain, then just use it. Like, use me, let me bear it. And then now that you're done and you hear people like Dan and stuff that recap it and they're like we see Jesus in Ray, you know, and you talk about being that peace and when you talk about your why of you're just wanting to surrender it right, like yeah, I just take it, just take it. And then you know you feel alive, like you starting to feel that Holy Spirit really coming in. It's like you know you said what to two years or so that you're really been in your faith.
Speaker 4:Yeah, well, no only about seven months or so, okay.
Speaker 3:So seven months or so, yeah, and it just shows it doesn't matter how far along you've been in faith or anything like that, Like it's a constant thing, Like the Holy Spirit's constantly moving in you. It don't matter how new you are into faith or how old you've been into faith. You know, like Dan grew up in church and all this and somebody with little you know I wouldn't say little faith, but like early on in their faith journey. It doesn't matter. God's going to use every single person and I feel like no matter where you are in life like that's that's a big takeaway from this is no matter where you are in life, no matter how unqualified you feel, no matter the whatever's holding holding you back, god will get you through it. And man like, thank you so much for sharing, because it is just, I feel like it's so powerful so I'll throw a little wrench in here.
Speaker 2:Sean, get on the mic over there if you would mic check one two so we've got you know. Everybody knows sean rubish's story a good high school friend, he. He happens to be sitting on the other side of the glass. He wanted to meet Ray. Sean, do you have any questions for Ray, any comments that you can think of, with everything you've been through in your life and you know my experience that I had with Arap, but anything you want to add to this?
Speaker 5:Remarkable story. First and foremost, what I relate to're when you're little, that fog, just being in, that fog of trauma, I I kind of say it's like a dream or a nightmare that you're in that you just can't wake up. Yeah and uh, that really hit home with me. Um, and to be in it as long as you were in it, because I remember very vividly of you know how, how long I was in it and how long it took to get out of it and uh, so that's what kind of resonated with me, just that. And you, you describe it perfectly because I kind of explained it like a dream where you're just walking around and it's survival mode, and I remember that very specifically when I was a child and when you started talking about it, it definitely hit home for me. So I mean, I loved your story and I'm a better person for knowing your story.
Speaker 2:Thank you. I think a lot of people are man. I, you know, both you men are inspirations, um, to so many people out there and, um, it's remarkable, I mean, what a blessing for me to be able to have this opportunity to know you guys, to know your stories and to be able to share it with others who will be impacted in a positive way. And to kind of close this out, ray, if there's somebody out there who is struggling with that fear, that anxiety, that stress, you know, maybe not as deep as you were into it, um, but you know just that fear of of trying to take that next step or how to get out of of the confinement of their bedroom, um, of their home, of whatever, whatever situation there is, what advice would you have for somebody to to try to take that step in the right direction?
Speaker 4:I would say you know to know that it will pass. You know the suffering is guaranteed, but the degree that you will experience it is not always going to be the same. You know if it is absolutely horrible one day, it won't be, you know. So you just can't give up. That's the thing right. You just can't give up. That is that's the thing right. You just can't give up. And if you truly ask for guidance in it from the Lord, I do believe that you will find it. And it won't be easy and it will oftentimes not be the answer that you want. But it's not what you want, it's his will. You just have to surrender to that and keep going.
Speaker 2:That's a great answer. You and I talked I think it was this morning about different things. You know some ideas that we have for Be Tempered and the movement that we're, the community that we're trying to create, and and Sean knows this you know we're we're looking for people that that would get on stage and share their story, and you know I knew people were coming. I didn't know who they were and and and we we talked about this morning. I think you're one of those people. You're one of those stories that people can relate to. You know differently than what Sean went through, but there's so much similarities in your story and Sean's story and the struggles of just trying to get through those difficulties that you faced, you know, as a young child and in your adulthood. I mean, dude, you're only seven months into this faith journey that you faced as a young child and in your adulthood.
Speaker 4:I mean, dude, you're only seven months into this faith journey. How does it feel? Oh, it's incredible because I'm just so excited to see what more happens, because the blessings are just like and the abundance it's so incredible. And you take like for me, I can't be anything but grateful for the things that happen, even if it's something that's hard to stomach, you know, or painful it's like. Oh no, I can see the good being worked in it and it's an opportunity. So I'm, I'm just so excited for for everything that's to happen. Yeah, it's amazing it's.
Speaker 2:it's also amazing that you take a farm kid from rural Preble County, ohio, and a tattoo artist from Winnipeg, manitoba, and stick them in the North Georgia mountains where one of them walks like Forrest Gump. And here we are in Richmond, indiana, recording a podcast. You know you've been staying with my family for the last couple of days and you know we've been taking you on a whirlwind tour across our community and meeting people. And you know we got another. You know finish out today and you fly home tomorrow. It's truly remarkable how God works and how, you know, he puts certain people in your lives at the time that you need it. And uh, man, I needed you. I'm, I'm truly grateful for our friendship. Um, you know, I don't know where, where this is all going to go, um, but I know that we'll continue to walk that path, walk that journey, and there'll be trials and there'll be challenges along the way, but there's no doubt that what you've went through in your life, what we went through together in those North Georgia mountains, I can bring it on man.
Speaker 2:We're going to get through it no matter what, so thank you, thank you for being here. Oh, man, like we're going to get through it no matter what, um, so thank you, thank you for being here.
Speaker 4:Oh yeah, thank you very much. It's been, it's been the best yeah.
Speaker 2:All right, everybody, I don't know how you can't share the story. Uh, it's, it's truly remarkable. Somebody out there needs to hear it. Um, we, we continue to say thank you for your ears, for your support, you know, continue to like and comment and do all those things so we can continue to grow the show and to share Ray's story and go out and be tempered.
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