BeTempered
We believe that everyone has the potential to achieve greatness, and that the key to unlocking this potential is through personal development. Our podcasts are designed to help you cultivate the skills and mindset you need to achieve your goals and live the life you want.
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 81 - 'Small Choices, Big Impact' with Brian Ballenger, Mark Broeker, and the WC Leads Cohort
What makes someone worth following when no one is watching. In this leadership roundtable, that question sits in the center of the table as stories unfold from classrooms, locker rooms, offices, and quiet early mornings when no one else is around to see the work.
On this episode of BeTempered, hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with guests Brian Ballenger, Mark Broeker, and members of the Wayne County Area Chamber of Commerce WC Leads Cohort to unpack leadership that is not about titles or platforms, but about service, alignment, and consistency when the spotlight is off.
The conversation traces the path from a high school teacher who walked away from a 20 year career to a coach who drilled preparation and accountability into every practice. Their stories show how example beats rhetoric, how standards shape culture, and how small daily choices quietly forge character over time.
Together, the group explores why alignment often works better than chasing balance. Instead of trying to slice life into even pieces, they talk about naming non negotiables like faith, family, service, and health, then letting those priorities drive the calendar. That framework gives leaders a steady place to stand when it is time to enforce standards, make hard calls, protect culture, and still hold compassion for the people involved.
You will also hear practical insight on how to have tough conversations, how to tailor feedback so it actually lands, and how to judge leadership by the culture it creates rather than the title on a door. The WC Leads cohort shares what it looks like to grow as young professionals across healthcare, housing, education, finance, and business while staying rooted in Wayne County.
Integrity in the dark shows up too. The early workouts no one sees. The quiet reading before the day starts. The text or note of encouragement that costs a few minutes but compounds into trust over time. Challenges like 75 Hard become case studies in ownership, grit, and the kind of self discipline that teams and families naturally follow.
If you care about servant leadership, real accountability, and practical tools you can use with your team tomorrow, this conversation will sit right beside you in the work.
Connect with BeTempered and the hosts:
BeTempered website: https://betempered.com
BeTempered on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/betempered
Learn more about WC Leads and the Wayne County Area Chamber of Commerce:
WC Leads program: https://www.wcareachamber.org/wcleads.html
Wayne County Area Chamber of Commerce: https://www.wcareachamber.org
If this conversation encouraged you, follow BeTempered, share it with a friend who leads, and leave a quick review. When you support the show and check out these links, you help more people find stories of real faith, resilient leadership, and communities that grow stronger together.
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SPEAKER_00:Patrons Glass, a clear choice.
SPEAKER_06:I want to share something that's become a big part of the Be Tempered mission: Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part. Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and Ben putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple real stories, raw truth, resilient faith, so that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.
SPEAKER_08:Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.
SPEAKER_10:Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips, and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.
SPEAKER_08:We're your host, Dan Schmidt, and Ben Sparr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.
SPEAKER_10:This is Be Tempered.
SPEAKER_08:What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, episode number 81, Dan.
SPEAKER_10:Are you sure? 100%. I double checked five seconds ago.
SPEAKER_08:You're three for three.
SPEAKER_10:I have one job.
SPEAKER_08:No, you had a couple today. I did. Yeah, you failed.
SPEAKER_10:Thank you.
SPEAKER_08:Hey, today we uh have a unique situation here on the podcast. We've got a group from Wayne County Chamber of Commerce. It's the WC Leads Group. And this is a group of young adults who are leaders in our community. And um they have been here about an hour prior to us recording the podcast, and we have had some pretty amazing conversations uh regarding leadership, people who they look to as leaders in their lives, and uh asking some amazing questions. And so we want to carry that on to the podcast here and get some stories, ask some questions, um, and try to get better today. I mean, that's what that's what this is all about. So, you know, in stating that, we are here today uh sitting in studio with Brian Ballinger.
SPEAKER_01:Hello, Dan.
SPEAKER_08:This is not your first time here.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's good to see you again.
SPEAKER_08:Welcome back. And everybody knows Ben. Hello, Dan. And we've got Mark Broker with us. Hello. And we have Miss Mary Parrott.
SPEAKER_03:Hello.
SPEAKER_08:And so what we're gonna do is I want to start right now, Brian. I want you to tell me one word that comes to mind when you hear leadership.
SPEAKER_01:To me, leadership, uh, there's one word that uh really permeates my mind when I think about leadership, and that's uh uh to be empowered by empowerment.
SPEAKER_08:How about you, Ben?
SPEAKER_01:Selfless.
SPEAKER_08:Selfless.
SPEAKER_10:Selfless.
SPEAKER_08:I think of servant. When I when I think of a leader that I want to emulate, I think of someone who is a servant leader, someone who is giving back, who is trying to help others, being a servant for others. So servant is my word. How about you, Mark?
SPEAKER_09:I instantly think of growth and not growth within myself. It's about the team around, it's about a community, it's about a team, it's about just a community overall. When you're a leader, people are looking at you. Maybe it's your family. It could be as simple as your son or daughter. Mary?
SPEAKER_05:Um, when I think of a leader or leadership in general, I would say like a quality that someone might possess, or I guess a set of qualities that uh helps them guide a like a singular person or a group of people towards kind of like a collective goal.
SPEAKER_08:It's a good answer. All good answers. I mean, there's no right or wrong answer, right? I think at the end of the day, we've all had leaders in our lives who have made a positive impact in our lives. And then there's leaders we've had that have, you know, we've we've learned from maybe on a negative sense, where it's like, ooh, we don't want to lead like that. And so, with that today, with the group of young adults that we have with us, uh, there were some questions that were asked to the group, and we got some some pretty awesome answers. And the biggest thing I want to kind of stay on here with this podcast is one of the questions was when you think of a leader, who do you think of? Why do you think of that person? And what's a story that you can share with others that people can relate to? So, Mary, that's why you're sitting at the table first, because I I read your answer and and was blown away. And I think it's important to uh for you to share that. So, so when you think of a leader, who do you think of, why that person, and what kind of story do you have that you can tie into that?
SPEAKER_05:Yeah, okay. Um, so I'll be honest, when I got this question, it kind of took me a minute to like really think because I feel like giving someone the title of leader, like, it's kind of a big deal, and you don't just want to give that around, you know, if they're not actually a leader. And so I really started thinking, and I thought back to one of my former high school teachers. Uh, her name is Mrs. Alka. She was my biology and my ag teacher. So I went to a really small high school. So he kind of they doubled down on um subjects that they taught. Um, but she always was somebody who led by example. She was always like just a great person, a genuine person, a real person. Um I was put in her class, like my freshman year of high school, in an ag class. And I was like, why am I in this class? Like that was just not my thing. Yeah, I lived in a rural community, but my family, like farming was just not our thing. And I was like, okay, whatever. I'll sit through the class, I'll get the credit, all will be well. And so as time went on, I was like, man, this class is actually pretty cool. Um, the content was starting to be interesting, but really what stood out to me is how we learned different qualities within her class. So in the intro to AG was kind of like FFA based, like kind of like a, I guess, a funnel into FFA, if you will. And that was something that did not interest me at all. Um, and so as the class went on, we learned about public speaking and presence and how to show up and work ethic. And so as time went on, um, I did some projects within the class, and she looked at me one day and was like, hey, like, I really think you should be an FFA. I think you should take this project and go and compete. If you know anything about FFA, it's a lot of competitions, a lot of things that help you skill build. And so I was like, you know what? Yeah, sure. Life sounds good. So I did that my first year. Um, it went okay. And then after that, I was hooked. FFA was actually like my favorite thing I did during my high school years. Um and so I thought that was really cool. And just to be a part of FFA is just really nice and to have a leader like Mrs. Alka was super great. Um, my junior year, I would say is like the summer between my junior and senior year, she told us that she was leaving. And she had been at our school for like, I want to say like 20 plus years. So like her leaving was like a big deal. Um, she wasn't retiring, she was actually leaving the teaching profession altogether. So that is a 17-year-old who's like really enjoys like being with this person and having her in class and all these things. I'm like heartbroken. I'm like, oh my gosh, like this is so upsetting. Like, can't you just stay? I have one more year left of school. And she's like, no, like I need to, I need to do this. And the whole entire time, like, she's very upset. Like, and she didn't hide that from us uh that she was upset about leaving, but she was like, I need to, I need to do something different. And I was like, okay, and at 17 years old, you don't really think a lot about that, but I was like, okay. So she did. And after she left, she still showed up, she still communicated with us, she still showed leadership and basically showed that she was a good person. So that went a long way. Um, but then thinking more like in the present day, so um, I currently work at Bethany Seminary as a coordinator of their Bethany Bull program. I've actually only been there about four and a half months. So I haven't been at Bethany very long. Um, I've act I actually was a public school teacher the last three years since I graduated college, and obviously I no longer do that. And so going into the teaching profession, I don't know if you guys know, but it's kind of an interesting area to be right now for a lot of people, even like super seasoned veteran teachers. And so by about year two, I was like, you know what? I'm not sure if this is this is for me for numerous reasons. Love the kids, but it's it's a hard place to be. And so year three, I moved to a different school, try that out. Maybe it's just the school I was at. Maybe I need to try something different. Year three, I'm like, uh no, no, no, no, no, no. I don't think this is it. And year three is when they say it gets a lot easier, which it did in some aspects, but in others, I'm like, how do people do this for 30 years? Like, this is this is a lot of work. Um so I was really thinking about doing something else, didn't know what I wanted to do. I'm in my like mid-20s, I'm like kind of stressed. I'm like, teaching is a vocation. So I'm like, what where do I go? What do I do now? And so wanting to leave teaching was like really, really scary. And so, and you work so hard to teach. I mean, you have to do student teaching and all of that stuff. And so then I just got to thinking about it. I'm like, you know, Miss Alka did it. She was here for 20 some years, that's all she knew, and she had the courage to to do something different for herself. And so I've never told her, I've never told her that. But um, that really, I mean, she was a leader by example and didn't even realize that that's the example she was setting. So that's why she's my leader.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's an amazing story. That's it, you know, what an impact she had on you. And uh it you, I'm sure she didn't realize it. You know, she's just doing her job, but what an amazing leader. And then, you know, hear you reflect back on it, you know, making that career change because she did. So thank you for sharing that story.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, thank you.
SPEAKER_08:It's amazing. Yeah. What about you, Brian? What do you have? When you you there's somebody out there who who was it? Who was that leader for you?
SPEAKER_01:Well, when I was in my uh early teen years, there was a gentleman that uh you would see on TV commercials. Uh, some of you may not even know the name, but Lee Akoka, he would spent the majority of his career uh with Ford Motor Company. And in 1978, he was uh selected to be the new CEO of Chrysler, who at the time was facing bankruptcy. Uh just a huge amount of problems within that corporation. But when he came on TV, and again, I'm in my early teens, and I see this guy say, lead, follow, or get out of the way. And and there was just something about that statement that I connected with, really didn't know why. Um I I think of that statement differently now than I did then, but I guess what I reason I want to bring that up is that really resonated with me. Uh, the thought of lead, follow, or get out of my way. And I think that was something kind of instilled in me. Um where that comes from, I don't know. Call it God given. But today, when I think about that statement, it's almost like an admonition. If you're gonna lead, if you say you're gonna lead people, then be a leader. But if you are a but if you're not gonna lead, you say you do, and there's a lot of people out there that say I'm gonna lead, but they're not leaders. You need to get out of the way or follow. And so to me, that was the the first real, I guess, introduction to what what what leadership is. Maybe a little bit of an unusual example, but that that's the first time I ever heard this concept of of leading and following.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. Lee Coca, yeah, that's a that's a famous name for sure. All right, we've got somebody at the hot seat. Again, talking about leadership and uh and all those good things. Ben, who who's someone that you think of when you think of that leader that influenced you in whatever way, who's that person for you?
SPEAKER_10:So mine was always the my coaches growing up. That was the first sense, like uh we talked about before. That's funny. During football season, I had poor leadership where it just wasn't consistent, right? Yeah, you come into Dixie and there's 13 kids, and then it's like, yeah, I did not sign up for this for high school sports. So then they'd get out. So there's no continuity and everything, but the the basketball coaches from middle school um all the way up to high school. It was just the people that instilled that trust, that that leadership of uh words countability. Um, you know what I mean? Like they were always held you accountable no matter what. And I really learned from them.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, accountability is key. And I think that's we talked about that with the group earlier, just about how there's not a lot of accountability in today's age for whatever reason. I don't know if people are afraid to step on other people's toes, but you know, especially like we talked about in youth sports, like when you hold kids accountable, if there's rules and they they don't follow, they break those rules, hold them accountable. Yep. Right. And that's how you grow is from learning from your mistakes. So um, so yeah, that's you know, for me, when when I think of this question, you know, I I talked about it earlier. I think about my former college football coach, Mike Kelly. You know, he was someone who was enthusiastic. He always held people accountable, and he was always prepared. And those lessons that I, you know, I didn't realize it at the time, it's kind of like Mary, you know, you when you're around certain Peter people who have, you know, just amazing leadership, you don't even realize it. You know, you're but you're learning so many valuable things along the way. And uh his enthusiasm for everything that he did, whether it was, you know, just me and him sitting at his his office, he was enthusiastic in his conversation, his excitement for me to get better the next year. He would hold us accountable. There were rules that we had to follow. And if we broke those rules, we were held accountable. There were consequences, and you had three strikes. And that third strike, if you had a third strike on the team, you were off the team. You know, that's a big deal.
SPEAKER_10:Yep.
SPEAKER_08:Um, and then he was always prepared. I mean, preparation, preparation, preparation. That's why we were successful. That's why he was successful, that's why he is in the NCAA Hall of Fame, you know, because of the success that he had in his career.
SPEAKER_10:And you can tell that it, you know, that shaped you because that's the way that you lead, right? Always try to attack it with enthusiasm, always hold people accountable, and you're always prepared.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, yeah. And that's that's that's key. So when Brian, when we talk about leadership and we talk about uh, you know, those certain people, you know, we kind of broke down the the one-word answer, but how would you say that you lead in your business, in your family life, in your nonprofit? Are they all the same leadership styles or do those change?
SPEAKER_01:No, I I I can't say that I have a single leadership style that works across all of those different fronts. You know, the way I would have raised my daughters, obviously going to be much different than the way I try to lead employees, um, any other uh perhaps board where it's more of a collaborative uh scenario. So I I think to me, leadership needs to be able to be flexible based on the situation or the circumstance, also uh uh with each individual. So um I I think you need to be able to understand who you are at your core, uh let that be a guiding principle, but then when uh uh analyzing who I'm with, what what's the mission? Each organization has different missions, and so tailoring that leadership style to to fit uh who it is that we are leading.
SPEAKER_08:Let's talk about, and we talked about it with the group earlier, work life balance. And I thought your answer was was good to the group. So let's let's share that again with our listeners. When, you know, that that was a popular term, whatever, and whenever it came out, you know, work-life balance. You got to be balanced in all the things that you do, which you know, my feel I mean, I think balance balance is bullshit in my mind, pardon my French, but I I think that's what it is. It's you know, it's all about being present in whatever you're doing. So when I'm at work, I am present at work. When I'm at home with my family, I am present with my family. If I'm with our our youth basketball team, I'm present with them. I think it's more about being present than about being balanced. So talk about work-life balance.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, we probably started hearing that term about a decade ago. And at first, I really uh jumped onto that because with what I was going through in my life, you know, very busy, a lot of activities, a lot of obligations and responsibilities, that that has a toll. I mean, it it gets tiring, um, you feel stretched, um, uh, it can wear you down mentally, physical, physically. So I put a lot of thought into that. And what I came to is this point of where I was actually brutalizing myself because I I felt like in order to serve one group, my family, uh, my business, my employees, somebody was getting robbed. Maybe it was my extended family. And so there was a lot of guilt associated with that. Uh, but I I've spent more time thinking about what does it mean to be aligned in my life rather than uh focusing on balance. We're gonna have instances where get whatever uh whatever it is, we might be giving more time and attention to that uh in a 24-hour period. That's okay. But am I fully aligned with what I'm doing? And to me, alignment is seeking those things that not only fulfill you, but you are looking at what's most important in my life and what am I willing to not give up. I call that the non-negotiables. So with our routines, patterns, and habits, what am I doing today? How am I spending my time in order to fulfill whatever goal that might be, whether it's in service to others, uh service to my family, then also looking at what am I, what am I doing, what am I spending my time with today that doesn't serve anyone, doesn't even serve me. I have to be honest with myself and be willing to say, I'm gonna have the discipline to get that part out of my life because it's not serving anyone, it's wasted time and being aligned so that I can um not feel overwhelmed, not be overly stressed, and then live the life that I feel like I'm called to live.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah. And I feel like once you have that alignment set, everything will flow underneath it. Like you're what you call it, you're non-negotiable. So like the same thing with me. If I'm on my deathbed, that's the way I look at it, right? My last breath, and I'm looking back. All right, well, the number one thing is I want to make sure I'm faithful. Like my faith is my number one thing, and so that's my top. The next one, I want to be the best husband I can be for Lisa, right? End of the day, that's my goal. I want to be the best husband I can be. And then after that, it's my kids. Like nobody comes before my kids besides my wife and my guy. That's it. And then after that, you know, help one person. Like no matter what I do, I'm serving someone. And that goes back to my faith, though, right? Like that's who I try to go my leadership from, servant leader, the ultimate one. So I feel like once I align those top, I feel like everything else, you know, will be all into place.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's great. That's all good stuff. All right, back out into the room. Mark.
SPEAKER_09:Hey, I have Viva here. She wants to share another story with us about uh leadership.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, so um, my name is Eva Morata. I work at Erlum College, I'm the associate director of community relations. And one thing I love so much about my job is that I get to help strengthen the community. And the way I grew up, I moved around a whole lot and didn't have a steady community that I could lean on for support in many ways. And so, because of that, sometimes I have a hard time thinking about leadership, who has been a leader for me. And beyond just celebrities and people whose books I read, I think the one person I keep coming back to is my aunt. Um, her name is Deborah. And she was always a person that I could count on as a mentor and a role model throughout my life. Um, she was somebody that I almost hate to say it, but has sort of that work-life alignment that you all were talking about. Of course, she does overextend herself, but she was able to find how her passion aligned with um both just her internal motivation and also how to cultivate that into like an external opportunity. So she was always such a hard worker from a young age, holding multiple jobs, setting herself apart from sort of family accepted um activities, if you will. Um, and she really cared for her family as well. So she was the primary caregiver for her grandparents, my great-grandparents, and put herself on the line to make sure they had care for the last years of their life. Because of that, she started stepping up in the care facility where they were at. And she saw problems and she took that initiative to address them. And because of that, they hired her as the director of the assisted living facility, despite her being a high school English teacher. That was her full professional background. Um, so just like seeing her evolution throughout that role and how much her care allowed her to step into that professional position and fulfill her sort of love to our grandparents and also to the other members of our community who weren't necessarily getting that good leadership support was incredible from that position. She became the director of a community health organization. And just seeing how she was able to give back and through her hard work and the skills that she worked so hard to cultivate, she was able to lead this organization with an incredible amount of just finesse. And she's just someone I look up to so, so much in both professional and personal. Um, she also just was the president of the Rotary Club in her area, and she oversaw um the development and installation of a public art sculpture called Heroes. And it was about beyond just who you think about heroes being. And uh, she asked the question: who is in your life who's a hero that isn't being recognized? Is it teachers, is it medical professionals, is it the people who work really hard volunteering? Who is that? And so she led the installation of that sculpture in the community and just was able to oversee so many projects that gave back to people beyond herself. And she asked me, you know, questions that have definitely turned me into who I am today, and one of which is, how can I support you? And that was a question that had never been asked to me. And so thinking about that, knowing that she had that desire to help me grow into the best person I could be, led me to start asking those questions to the people around me. How can I support you? How can I show up for you? Um, and I think that's really like how leadership starts is having somebody that you can say, oh my gosh, you're doing this, this, and this. And I'd like to do that too. And how can I learn from you in other ways? And I really just think it goes back to that question of you know, not overextending yourself. How do you find that alignment between um work and personal? And I think that's why you need to have a job that you love, something that you you know um fills your cup every day. So you can go home to your family, your friends, your pets, and uh be truly who you are instead of just you know another extension of your work persona. So thanks for the opportunity to talk about these things. It's exciting being here.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's amazing. Does she know how you feel about her?
SPEAKER_11:I think I need to tell her explicitly, yeah.
SPEAKER_08:I think you just did, but I think it would be important for you to share that with her because you know, as a leader, sometimes it's it, you know, there's a heavy burden, right? And you can feel the weight and you feel the pressure and you wonder, am I doing what I hope I should be doing? You know, I I feel fulfilled, I feel like I'm helping people, but you know, you don't always hear it as a leader. You know, a lot of times as a leader, as part of that burden, you get all the negative stuff. So I think it would be good. Now, I mean, you just told her basically here, but I think it would be good to have that conversation just to uh, you know, to let her know how impactful she's been to you.
SPEAKER_11:Yeah, I definitely will. And I think, you know, the emotional labor of being a good leader is definitely there. So it goes, you know, unseen a lot of the time. So if you have a good leader in your life, let them know. Thank them. So I'll definitely do that for her.
SPEAKER_01:That's a great point. Uh, just a couple of days ago, I received a text message from uh someone that I've known for over 30 years, out of the blue, just kind of random, uh 5'10 yet. I think it might have been yesterday morning, actually. And um uh I won't go into what he said. It's um uh I guess for me, I don't I don't want to I I don't need a lot of affirmation. I certainly don't need to share it with others, but just the thought that he took time out of his morning, I was on his mind, and the thoughts that he shared with me about how much he appreciates me, um, that just really set my day up really well. Because, you know, I think you you're right, uh, she mentioned uh sometimes the the the great burden we have as leaders and sometimes it's very uh thankless. Uh so it is good to uh as leaders to reach out and acknowledge those that we do see that are doing great things behind behind the scenes.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, I agree. And you know, that's one thing I really, really try to do every morning is I try to send a text. Uh a lot of times what I'll do is I'll send a video message um, you know, to someone that maybe I haven't talked to in a while because I feel like that's that's more impactful, that's more personable. Um and and so I would encourage any of you out there, whether you're in a leadership position or you're not, is just to reach out to those people that maybe have been a leader to you and to say, hey, I just want you to know, thank you for what you you know, what you've done in my life, and and uh you know, just show that appreciation. I think that's important.
SPEAKER_01:I'm trying to get better at that.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, it's it's a hard thing to do again because we get so busy. But Mark, we got somebody else at the table?
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, I have Lindsay here. She stepped up, she has a few questions or mainly one question for the group of you three.
SPEAKER_02:He just looked at the full page of questions I have, but I picked the best one. Um I'm Lindsay Freed. I work for the Housing Authority here in Richmond. I'm the family self-sufficiency coordinator, um, which means I do case management and fundraising and kind of wear a million hats. Um of the things that's been so the most beneficial for me about this conversation is being in this room of business owners and young professionals talking about that experience of realizing that we've overextended ourselves, right? That we're doing too much, that our plate is too full, and trying to set boundaries and make sure that we're serving the folks we want to serve as well as we can. Um, I think one of the most challenging things for me about doing that is when I encounter a moment where as a leader, I have to enforce, or I have to fire someone, or I have to terminate a resident from housing, or terminate someone from the program that I run. When I have to be that enforcer, I really feel the burden of leadership. And I'm wondering for you folks, what's the conversation that you have with yourself when you need to talk yourself into I need to do something that might hurt this person in a way that I know is ultimately going to be good for them, but it's hard to take that step. How do you have that conversation with yourself when you have to be that enforcer and and you feel the burden of leadership that way?
SPEAKER_01:So to answer that, I feel like you have to analyze what what's the right decision. And I think a lot of times we know in our heart what the right decision is. That doesn't make it easy. Um but if we want to serve that person, maybe it's terrible news. Like, for example, you mentioned uh evicting someone. Dan, I think just uh very recently you you terminated someone within your company. Uh that's not an easy thing, but uh is it the right thing? And and who knows? You know, several years ago there was an individual that worked for me. Uh he was Very young, kind of cocky, very arrogant, huge ego. And he was just making several mistakes one after the other. And I finally, and we talked about those mistakes. And uh one day I just realized this is not gonna change. So did the very, I mean, it was a very hard thing to do. I worked side by side with him for probably two years, um, had to terminate. And about five years ago, which so I'm I'm talking, this is going back almost 30 years. About about five years ago, this individual came to me and he said, I I I gotta share this with you. And I thought, oh no, I'm not sure how this is gonna go. But he said, that was the best thing that you could have ever done for me. Um, he said, I needed that. So sometimes we can't see at in the moment that that's going to be the best outcome for that person, but having the courage to do what's right.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you. That's a great answer.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, and it and it that is a hard thing. But that's, you know, I I did share that uh story with with the group earlier about having to let someone go. That was um again, you know, when when you're a leader and and one of my biggest strengths is caring for people. You obviously have a caring heart, and and some of the decisions that you have to make, whether it's letting someone go or or something as serious as evicting someone from their home, like that's heavy. That's very, very difficult. But when you're to that point, there's a reason you're at that point. And you have to look at like what Brian said, you have to look at what is the best thing for our organization, for ultimately, maybe for these people, right? If you're letting someone go, like there needs to be a change. And that's what I came to a couple of weeks ago with with what I had to do, because I was sick about doing it. I was sick, but I I knew that it was affecting my team. And ultimately, that this was the decision that had to be made to for the betterment of our business. And um it's never easy. You know, again, that's the burden of leadership. And if you're going to be in that position, you've got to expect that there's gonna be a lot of times, uh, more often than not, where you're gonna feel that anxiety, you're gonna feel that stress and that pressure. Uh, it's not comfortable, you know, it's it's not a comfortable situation for anyone. Um, so you know, it's just doing what's right for the organization as a whole. And I and I think ultimately, in most cases, it's probably right for that individual. Maybe in your situation, it's right for that family. They got to get a change to get out of whatever that environment is. Um, but it's still it's tough, it's very difficult.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah. Great question. Thank you. And I I think earlier when you just you were telling your story about having to let someone go and mentioned, described this. You're, I think it was your word exactly that this was the burden of leadership that hit me really hard because I this is kind of the toughest part for me personally.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_08:If you don't want to be a leader and you don't want to be, you don't want to feel that that pain, then take a step back and let somebody else do it. But I can tell everybody in that room, you know, they they want they're hard, hard chargers, they're dry, they want to get better, they want to be successful, and that's that's a that's what being a leader is.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, we're all in it here. Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's a great question. Thank you.
SPEAKER_09:A follow-up question I had from uh some people that submitted some questions to me was how do you tell a good leader from a bad leader? Sometimes people get labeled a good leader, but they're really a bad leader.
SPEAKER_01:To me, that's kind of a simple one. Um a good leader is somebody I want to follow. A bad leader, I do not want to follow. I'll do about anything to not have to follow somebody like that.
SPEAKER_10:From an outside, you can just look at the culture a lot of times. The culture that's built there, how people treat each other. A lot of that's a reflection of the leadership. That's what I would look at.
SPEAKER_08:Well, and I think, you know, titles mean nothing, right? Yeah, it doesn't matter what your title is, whether you're president, CEO, CFO, whatever you are, executive director, that doesn't mean anything, right? That just means that's the position that you hold. Um, there's plenty of leaders and and various companies that, you know, maybe at the bottom of the totem pole financially in that organization, but they're actually a leader, you know. Um, so um I don't titles mean nothing to me as far as that goes. So yeah, that's a good question.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like I should say for the record that my personal role, and I'm very grateful for this at the housing authority, does not mean that I personally have to make the whole decision of evicting somebody. Our public housing manager is an angel, and I adore her, and she is more responsible for those. And of course, we have regulations that guide us, but I do have to make decisions about, you know, somebody participates in this program that I run for the housing authority that gives folks access to case management and support and funding. And if I have to terminate someone, it's tough. So I really appreciate you guys sharing this wisdom.
SPEAKER_08:And yeah, I wouldn't say wisdom, just experience. What's the difference? It's true.
SPEAKER_09:All right. We're switching out real quick here, but I have Katie and she has a question for the group.
SPEAKER_01:Hi, Katie.
SPEAKER_03:Hi.
SPEAKER_08:Tell us your name and the organization you work for.
SPEAKER_04:My name is Katie Stephen and I work for Read Health.
SPEAKER_08:Question you have for us.
SPEAKER_04:So when it comes to leadership and constructive criticism, receiving as well as giving, um, I want tips and tricks on that because I would like to think I receive criticism well. I'm not an outsider looking in. And so um, and I also have to give constructive criticism often. So everything you can tell me.
SPEAKER_01:All right, I'll answer that. That's almost um, I'm gonna give you two different answers. So, first of all, the way you give construction constructive criticism, how do you like to receive it? Because we all need it, we may not want it, but if I'm good, if if I need it, how do I like to receive it? So, in other words, the way that others have have approached me and it went well and you took it well, you use that. But then also I think you need to look at the individual. Um we're dealing with with humans, we have personalities, uh, we're we're all different. And so I think probably tailoring that criticism that's needed given on a case-by-case basis, because ultimately, what do you want? You want the best outcome for whatever that situation is. Uh so I don't think it's a one size fits all.
SPEAKER_08:I'll tell you how I deal with it. I I what I try to do like with business or even if it's just like the kids, is I I always try to say, hey, put yourself in this person's situation. You know, if this happened, why did it happen? Were they raised differently? What's their home life like? You know, there's all these different things. Don't know other people's situations. So if if you can can take whatever that criticism is, I call it coaching. You just you say, okay, you know, why did Brian react the way that he reacted? You know, why did he get upset about this or get upset? You don't know what his day was like, right? So let's let's talk that through. I think it's really important to connect with people. And and a lot of times that's being vulnerable. You know, that's being vulnerable with that person. And maybe you share a story, maybe whatever you're um you're coaching or you're criticizing someone or having a conversation, maybe you share a story with them that's happened to you that you be and you kind of break that ice, and then you turn it and you say, Okay, you know, this happened the other day. No, why did this happen? Can we talk through this? What's going on at home or what's going on beyond work? Is there something else going on here? And try to make that connection. I think when you can connect with people by being vulnerable, I think that's when things change for the better. And it doesn't mean you're always gonna make that person's not gonna get it all the time. But I think if you if if you show them that you're open and you're vulnerable and you're honest in your conversation, that you're gonna find that they're gonna be more open and honest. And I think the outcome in most cases will be better. Right. Um, so that's that's how I try to do it, especially with my family, with my kids. You know, when they come home and they talk about such and such did this at school today. Well, what do they go home to? You know, I just don't know.
SPEAKER_10:Yeah, my big thing with receiving, and it's gonna be hard to talk like this and try to look, I'll look at you on the TV screen. But no, uh the big thing for me is I think it comes from like a relationship standpoint on how I receive and and give criticism, right? Like I feel like in order for me to receive criticism a lot of times, what's the either like their position or be like, what's my relationship with them? Because some people have the criticism, it's like, well, do I want to be like you? Like, do I want that criticism to come from there? Like if you have a relationship with them and you know the type of person they are, I feel like it's easier to receive. And obviously it's easier to give, right? If you feel like you have a relationship with someone, they're gonna be more likely to accept that because they know where it's coming from. Like they know that you care for them if you have a relationship with them. Um, I feel like a lot of times criticism comes and you don't know who it is and it just doesn't mean anything, you know. So I feel like if you really want to be a good leader, have a relationship with them, and then the criticism will be received a lot easier.
SPEAKER_08:Well, like with you, you know, you're in our relationship. Right. I mean, I can be pretty blunt with you, yeah, you know, because we have that relationship and you know you're not gonna take it personal. Right. But there's other people that you can't do that with. You gotta build that connection. You gotta, you know, you gotta show that you care. I think, I think when you show people that you care and you're you're vulnerable with whatever's going on, I think that's where true connection and true change happens for the better. So I don't know if that answers your question, but no, that helps for sure.
SPEAKER_04:I think that individuals that I've received criticism from, it comes from a place of their heart that's light, and that along comes with good leadership. And so I have had individuals that have been great leaders and have taught me in a way to then kind of deliver the same way I received, to your point. Um, but I always like quit like second guess myself and question myself like, am I doing it the best way? Or is there a thousand different ways?
SPEAKER_01:I think you you'll know by the way it's received if they and if they feel that you truly care and that you want the very best for them, keep that in mind. And it nine times out of ten is going to be taken well. But they have to know it's all it's only because you care and you're passionate about them.
SPEAKER_04:All right. Thank you.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah. Good question. Mark, you got anything else to add out there? Does anybody else want to come up to the mic?
SPEAKER_09:I'm just looking over my notes here. I have another uh one that was sent to me is that leadership and growth happens the most when no one's watching. And that's hard to understand when it's leadership because in today's world, leadership you see in books, you see it in podcasts, you see it on TV, social media, millions of followers, whatever it is. But whatever happens in those moments when no one's watching, as long as you keep repeating that, maybe it's a tough conversation. Maybe it's showing up every day to go for a walk. Maybe it's just getting out of bed five minutes early every day. You used to show up late to work, now you're not. Then you're emulating what leadership would be. So this person said leadership is what happens most when no one else is watching. So I thought that was remarkable because that is so true about not just leadership, but life in general. Michael Jordan didn't shoot free throws in front of thousands of people. He shot them in his backyard in a rim that didn't even have a net. Same thing with many others in the world. No one was watching, and then when they showed up, they were ready to play.
SPEAKER_08:Well, you got a perfect example. You just recently, you and your wife just completed 75 hard, right? And, you know, you talk about a challenge, uh, doing things when nobody's watching. You know, talk about talk about that transformation for you, maybe not just physically, but mentally, because of all those things that you did when no one else was watching.
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, and that's about emulating habits because I wanted to change my mind. I needed to have a growth mindset of just completely changing not just my household or myself, but as also the community. When you become overwhelmed, when you become not the person you exactly want, um you know where you want to go. Um, it really started about two years ago. Brian and I had a conversation, and he and I were both on this complete growth mindset. We were reading books like crazy. Um, I came across 75 hard, and that is two workouts a day. I am not a morning person. So for about two weeks, I was texting Dan saying, Hey, I'm up, and it's before the sun comes up. If I said I did that for two weeks in a row, you'd have been like, What happened to you, Mark? Um, I was up this morning and did it again, and now I'm after the 75, it's built in. Same thing with the diet, same thing with a lot, but then when you do that, it goes over to your leadership and the people around you. Now there's members on the team that are like, well, look at Mark. Now I've had three people that do 75 hard right now. Um, maybe it's reading a book. Being a mentor in Wayne County Leeds is truly changing, not just for the person, but also the mentor, because you're reading the books with them. I've read the same Atomic Habits book with every person that I've done. This is my third person now. Every time that book impacts me, different. Um, because it's different stories. The person I'm mentoring is different each time. Um, so that helps them just to see that growth.
SPEAKER_01:So to me, Mark, what you're describing is taking ownership of your own personal integrity. You know, I feel like it's so easy, or it's easier, maybe that's a better way to put it. It's easier to display integrity with others when they're watching, but it's a whole nother story when you hold yourself accountable to your own personal integrity. And to me, you only do that in the dark or when no one else is watching. And that is where we develop routines, patterns, habits that define who we are and where we're going.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, that's a great point. And and that's what that's one of the big things I harp on with my kids. You know, I have five kids. Uh, my oldest is in college, all the way down to my 10-year-old son. And we had my senior daughter, Leah, on the podcast here a couple of weeks ago. And that was one of the things that uh she had mentioned. I think you had asked her a question about one thing that stuck with her that that I had taught her. And she said, you know, you made the comment to me a couple of years ago that, you know, you need to do things like people are watching when they're not. You know, you need to be uh hold yourself accountable in in your workouts or in your school, you know. When when people aren't watching, like what are you doing? You need to pretend that they are watching uh because ultimately that's gonna be where you have success, maybe in sports, like in for her case, it was soccer, or you're not. You know, what what'd you do when no one was watching? Um so yeah, that's that's um that's yeah, super important, super impactful for sure. And obviously, you know, I think two of us at this table have done 75 hard. I don't know that the third guy has.
SPEAKER_10:I went to Dixie, I can't count, but one, two, oh, oh, that guy. Oh, he's trying to pressure him.
SPEAKER_08:No, Dan doesn't do that.
SPEAKER_10:Come on, Brian.
SPEAKER_08:He knows I'm going hard. I know you are. I'm not a bully most of the time. Mark, we got anything else out there you want to add? Any questions anybody else has before we close this thing out?
SPEAKER_09:We do not have anything else out here. We've been at this now, I think the podcast maybe an hour, but before that was maybe an hour and a half in length. So when you're two and a half hours of truly good conversation, and this is the next generation of leaders, um, for a whole community to have 13 people together and pour into it like this. This this program is not just today, it's not just us four. It's for three months. Not many communities can say that they just pour into their um next generation like that. So to be selected for it is big, but now to take the next step in growth is even bigger.
SPEAKER_08:So, for future, for those that maybe want to get involved in the Wayne County leads, what do people need to do to contact Chamber? How do they how do they get in touch to maybe be a part of this program in the future?
SPEAKER_09:Yeah, so you could reach out to the Wayne County area chamber. The nominations they are that to apply would come out in July every year. And then after that, it goes to a selective committee, and that committee then selects who is actually part of it. So this is the fifth year of it. So when you think about five years of people, 10 to 15 people, that's over 50 plus people that you are grooming to be the next leaders of the community. Um, and that's right now they're being on boards and and investing in and pouring in learning from people in ways that you probably wouldn't be in the same room with, to be honest. Um, that's remarkable.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, from all walks of life, from all different uh organizations in the community, uh, it's a great thing that that our our chamber does. And so I appreciate you reaching out to be a part of this. It's been pretty awesome. I know for myself, for Brian, for Ben uh to be in here and to to meet all these these young adults and and uh to be inspired. It's it's it's you know it's amazing. We hear a lot of negative things, right? In a small community, you hear negative, negative, negative. But when you come into a room like this with people like this, it's inspiring. And uh so so thank you for for recommending this. Kevin, thanks for putting all this together and letting everybody be up here with Global Media Enterprise. We always appreciate our uh executive producer.
SPEAKER_10:Thank you, executive producer, Kevin. Don't say executive PP.
SPEAKER_08:All right. Hey, leadership is not a title, it's a choice. Every single day you get to decide will I be somebody others can count on? Will I make someone's life lighter today? Will I walk into the room with purpose? Leaders aren't born, they're formed through fire, through failure, through little choices that build character. Invite them to stay connected, continue to support the show, continue to give us all that support, those likes, those shares, all those good things. And uh check out the Wayne County Chamber of Commerce and all the good things that they're doing in our community. Brian, we appreciate you being here again. Thank you.
SPEAKER_10:I always love it.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, and Ben, thank you too.
SPEAKER_10:Hey, thank you, Dan. Hey, and don't forget on our website now we officially have merchandise that is a lot.
SPEAKER_08:Yeah, we've got and we got some exciting news to come. We're not going to share right now, but it's coming. But yeah, if you go to betempered.com, there's a gear tab. We've got some pretty cool uh swag up there that uh someone has designed. Swag, yeah. Big time.
SPEAKER_10:So six seven.
SPEAKER_08:We're not going there. All the teachers in the room just cringed. All right, everybody. Thanks for your support. Go out and be tempered.
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