BeTempered Episode 98 - The Downward Spiral No One Talks About with Donald Reed

Rock bottom doesn’t always look like chaos. Sometimes it looks like a normal life slowly coming apart behind the scenes. In this episode, that’s exactly where the story begins before everything spirals.

Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Donald Reed, whose journey didn’t start with addiction, but with identity loss, divorce, and depression that cracked the door open just enough. What followed was a rapid descent into cocaine, pills, meth, dealing, and ultimately the needle. Donald breaks down the real psychology of addiction, the constant bargaining, the shame that fuels the next hit, and how each return pulls you deeper than the last. From trap houses to an overdose that should have ended everything, his story doesn’t hold back.

Then comes the moment no one expects. Arrested in his own hometown, handcuffed on a front step, Donald feels something he hadn’t felt in years…peace. That moment becomes the turning point into a faith-driven recovery shaped by jail ministry, confession, Scripture, and real accountability.

Now over eight years sober, Donald and his wife Joni Reed are helping others find their way out through Crossroad Christian Recovery Center for Women, a no-cost residential program in Richmond, Indiana. Supported by donors, churches, volunteers, and prayer, their mission is restoring lives and rebuilding families.

If you or someone you love needs help or wants to support the mission, visit https://www.crossroadchristianrecovery.org/

If you feel stuck, this conversation is a reminder that change can start with one honest moment.

Watch and listen at https://betempered.com
Support the mission at https://patreon.com/betempered

Transcript

Sponsors And Patreon Community

SPEAKER_05 0:04

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SPEAKER_04 0:29

I want to share something that's become a big part of the BTempered mission: Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part. Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and men putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple real stories, raw truth, resilient faith, so that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.

SPEAKER_06 2:09

Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips, and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.

SPEAKER_06 2:22

We're your host, Dan Schmidt, and Ben Sparr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.

SPEAKER_01 2:28

This is Be Tempered. So, dear Heavenly Father, Lord, we thank you for this day. We thank you for this opportunity to be gathered here in your name. Lord, just give us ears to hear your voice today, Lord. Give us eyes to see the path that you want us to take. And Lord, just bless it in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_06 2:46

Amen. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, episode number 98. 98. Here we go. Hey, today's guest is Donald Reed. Donald grew up in a good home with a good family. And like many of us, he once looked at addiction from the outside and wondered how people could fall into it. Until one day, he did. What followed was a battle that so many people face, but few talk about openly. The spiritual warfare between darkness and light. Addiction had its grip on Donald's life, and the deeper he went, the harder it became to see a way out. But even in the darkest places, Jesus has a way of showing up. Donald's story is a testimony to the power addiction can have over a life. But more importantly, the greater power of Jesus, forgiveness, and redemption. Today, Donald stands on the other side of that fire, clean, sober, and restored. And alongside his wife Joni, who many of you heard from on last week's episode, they now pour their lives into helping others find freedom through Crossroad Christian Recovery Center for Women in Richmond, Indiana. And if there's even one person listening today who feels trapped in the darkness, Donald hopes his story helps you realize there's still a way out. Donald Reed, welcome to the Beatempered Podcast.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_06 4:22

Yeah, we um, you know, last week's episode with your wife Joni, I'm getting goosebumps right now, even just thinking about that testimony and um you know the redemption in her life. And then, you know, when we when we met um with you two as a couple, Sean and I, and and Joni shared her story, and then you shared your story. I mean, I was I was um that evening I went home and I think I might have gone straight to bed. I I was so uh I I get so engulfed in these stories, and I I feel like I'm I'm on the ride with you, you know, as you share that story. And I don't know if that's a blessing or a curse, but uh I know that evening I went home and and hugged my kids and kissed my wife and said, I need to go to bed. And um, but it it's it's just so amazing the power of redemption. And I'm excited for you to be here and to share your story. And I appreciate you coming up here today.

Childhood Identity And The Power Of Words

SPEAKER_01 5:28

Yes, thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_06 5:30

Yeah. So how we like to start every podcast episode, as you know, is we want to start from childhood. So talk about what life what life was like for you growing up as a kid.

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Before I start there, can I can I open up with something else? Absolutely. Real quick. And so I shared this with Sean, but last week I was gonna watch about 15 minutes on Patreon of my wife's testimony. I've heard it dozens of times. Um, and as I'm watching it, I realize it's two hours later and I haven't got up. I've watched the whole thing. And so there were things that I hadn't heard her share. And I feel like she got healing through that. And so I want to thank you guys for creating a safe um atmosphere for for that, because that's where the healing happens. And so as a uh a believer, the enemy comes at you harder than he did uh did when you weren't a believer. And so I'm no different. A lot of times before I speak, I I start to get nervous or the enemy starts to attack. And one of the things he was telling me this week was that all you're doing is boasting about what you've done. And so the Lord on last Tuesday, we were at a uh conference, and the the Lord, I believe, gave me this verse and it's out of 1 Corinthians 15, and I'm gonna paraphrase it. And it's Apostle Paul speaking, and he's speaking here, and he says, But by the grace of God, I am what I am. And so today I'm gonna share some stuff that might be difficult to hear, and I'm gonna get excited about some stuff that's happened here in this world that I've got to be part of. It's not me boasting about me. This is me boasting about what the Lord has done in me and through me, just like he's doing in you guys and through you guys.

SPEAKER_06 7:12

Well, I appreciate you sharing that because that's a lot of what we hear from people that we have conversations with about them sharing their stories. I don't want, you know, they always say, I don't, I don't want to be boastful. I don't, I don't, I don't have a story. We hear that a lot. And then we also hear I I can't talk about myself. I don't want people to think that, you know, I'm I'm super prideful. Um, but that's how healing happens is by sharing your testimony and and the struggles that you went through, both good and bad, right?

SPEAKER_01 7:47

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 7:47

And so uh, but I appreciate you appreciate you sharing that for sure.

SPEAKER_01 7:51

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_06 7:52

So, childhood.

Divorce And The First Cocaine High

SPEAKER_01 7:54

So at the beginning, yeah. We're gonna go all the way back to the beginning. And there's a point to going back this far. And so I'm gonna go back to February 23rd, 1972. I'm still in my mom's uh womb and I'm about to make my entrance into this world, and everything's going as planned. But at the last second, I decided I wanted to turn around. And I always joked that I must have wanted to hit hit the ground running feet first. And so the doctors didn't have anything, you know, they didn't let that happen. But a result of trying things my way before I was even in this world led to me having two black eyes, a broken nose, and caused my mom undue and unnecessary pain for the first time. And so I'd like to sit here and tell you today that I learned my lesson and I quit trying to do things my way, but that's not true. And so I had a pretty normal childhood. Um my mom and dad um are still married to this day. I have two younger siblings with them. And I grew up, and my dad coached little league baseball. And I think it was Sean's testimony I was listening to that helped me remember the impact that youth athletics and the coaches had on my life and how still to this day I have those relationships with those people and those coaches. And along my journey, it's amazing. It's those people who come alongside me and have supported me the most. Um, so to go back to um the beginning there, and so I grew up, we were taught right from wrong. Uh, my my parents loved us. Uh, we never did without anything that we needed. I mean, there were things, you know, you don't always get what you want. And we were just really active in sports, a very active kid. And this happened all the way up and through time-made little league, right? And my grandparents will go backwards, my mom had all sisters, so I was the first grandchild. And I'll tell a little bit more about that story in a minute, why this is so significant. But I was like the son they never had. And so I was extremely spoiled, and I had this um elated sense of uh self-esteem that really turned into probably some narcissism as I got older. But um when I was to go back to that point, um, I was nine years old and I was playing little league, and I thought I was really good. And um, I don't know why my parents weren't there, but I was at the ball diamond and they were announcing the all-stars. And by all means, I shouldn't have made the all-star team as a nine-year-old, anyways. But there was um a tip some 10-year-olds that made it that I felt I was better than. And I it upset me. And I remember walking home from the ball diamond um and crying and being upset when I got home and um I shared that with my parents. And now what they what I'm getting ready to say, they said they didn't mean anything bad by it, but looking back, it really affected my identity or it gave me an excuse. And so instead of telling me to suck it up and you know, I just need to practice harder and and getting on the right path, being from a small town, they said I didn't have the last the right last name. And so at the time I didn't think much of it, but that really sunk in. And it was probably about a year ago that I realized what impact that had on my life. And as we go through this, I think you'll start to see um how that plays out. And so fast forward a little bit, and at about, I think it was 11 or 12, my parents sent me down and tell me that my dad's not my dad. And that I originally had a different last name. And first it was my my my grandparents' last name. And so now I have I didn't have the right last name as an excuse. And now I'm being it's being reinforced accidentally. This isn't like they're intentionally trying to hurt me. And so in my mind, um, that's another it's just it's just sitting there. I'm not really using it as an excuse at this point, but it's it's sitting there. And so anytime from that point forward, with me looking back and reflecting, something didn't go my way, whether it be I didn't make a sports team or I didn't get to play or I didn't get a job or a promotion, I always went back to those words. I don't have the right last name. And that became an excuse in my life. And um, it was really powerful. And I think I don't know if it was one of your podcast or someone else's where they talked about the value of words and when we use them, sometimes we don't even mean for them to do damage, but they do because they stick. And I think that was the case for me. Um, but there's been a lot of blessings from those words spoken over me as well. And so I went all the way through very active in school. Um, and when I mentioned earlier that I was not uh very talented at any sport, but I was super gifted as an athlete. And so I always made the team, I always got some playing time, and I had some success, but I didn't end up being the starter. I wasn't going to be a professional baseball player or basketball player like I dreamed when I was a little kid. And so as those uh thoughts started to fade, um, I replaced that with chasing women. You know, you hit puberty and you start thinking about girls, and I probably took it to a whole new level. Um I was introduced to porn, and that that, you know, on top of puberty really caused me to pursue women probably in an unhealthy way. And so I did that for years, and none of that was, you know, um any kind of a repentant sin because I didn't think there was anything wrong with it. I kind of felt like it was a right to passage as a as a boy. And some things probably happened to me as a child with babysitters that weren't appropriate, nothing too extreme, but because I was a boy, I thought it was normal. And so um looking back, that may have um influenced some of the perversion I had later in life because I felt like it was okay. And um, that was something I probably wasn't going to share today, but that's kind of interesting. And so um that just kept escalating. So then I still it was just really strange. I always felt like well, I was taught you can do anything that you put your mind to. And so I had a lot of success even in high school. Um, I quit playing sports, I started working because I wanted a truck, because everything I did from this point after the girls was to get girls. So whether I worked out, what clothes I wore, um, I wanted a nice jacked-up truck with big tires on it, and my parents couldn't afford that, but I could give up sports and go to work and pay for it myself. And so um I lost some of my identity that I did have because I'm no longer playing sports. The sports were keeping me to get good grades, and I no longer really cared about getting good grades because I was more concerned about working and acquiring all the things that I thought I needed to hook up with more girls. Um, in high school, I became a lifeguard at Whitewater State Park, and that really opened up the door for a lot more girls um in the summer, and this just compounded. This was a like a lifelong thing. And I'm not proud of this, but it was like another notch in my belt. Me and some friends, um, we we would have contests. How many girls can you can you sleep with? And it's not looking back, it's not one that was very uh, it wasn't very good way to look at women, and it did a lot of damage to me. Um, that caused me maybe not to respect women the way that I should have when I became older. And it it's interesting as I share my testimony, and then when I've heard other people share, my childhood, there was hardly any trauma to indicate for me to be a drug addict, or I was gonna be a drug addict, or any reason for me to be a drug addict. So early in my recovery, when people would share, the enemy would get in my head and say, You shouldn't share your testimony. You don't have nothing, you yours was self-inflicted, you're just being whiny. And so you have to push through that. You gotta decide uh what the Lord's asking you to share, and what and and and really it wasn't about me, anyways. It was about his kingdom and helping others uh come on board with that. And so I found that to be very interesting. And uh so I had a plan once I got out of high school that what I thought a man was supposed to be, and that plan was to uh eventually get married, to have some kids, to work, to be a good provider and not cheat on my spouse. And so at about 27, um, I was peeking around the corner at 30, and I thought life was over at 30. I don't know if you guys experienced that same thing. Turns out life really hadn't even begun at 30. Um, I don't even know if it's begun yet. Um, 50 doesn't seem that old anymore, but used to. I thought that was over the hill. And so I was on a pursuit to find a wife. And I was working at Hill's Pet Nutrition at the time. I had a really good job. Um, I had the I had another jacked-up truck, maybe even had a must hang at the time. And um, I was pretty proud of myself. And to be honest, I probably thought my stink didn't stink. And and that was that personality. It was really a curse for me because it helped me accomplish things, but it also helped me destroy things. Because I don't think I ever really valued anything that I got because it came really easy. And so I met a girl at Hills and she already had a daughter. We got, we got married. Um, not really because I was ready to get, like I didn't really, I don't know if I really wanted to marry her, so to speak. And I know that sounds bad, but we got pregnant and I was wanting to do the right thing. And around this time, my grandma, which I was super close to, she was my rock. You know, Jesus should have been my rock, but my grandma was my rock. And I probably had my first codependent relationship with her by trying to please her. And it really kept me out of a lot of trouble because that's probably why I didn't try drugs when I was younger and I didn't drink that much, because I didn't want to disappoint them. So uh when my my wife, which she wasn't my wife at the time, was pregnant with my daughter Madison. Um, my grandma got sick with cancer, and they had moved to South Carolina. And on her deathbed, she she was still trying to take care of me. And I she was at home in hospice. Um, she was getting close to the end, and she made me promise her that I'd be a good dad. Now, she didn't tell me I had to get married to be a good dad, but that's what I heard. And so I immediately was on a pursuit to get married after that because I didn't want to let her down. And so I got married and we and we had a pretty good marriage. I don't think there was a lot of love there for each other, like that that I see now in the marriages I have now. But we respected each other. I didn't cheat on her. Um, I worked all the time. And when I didn't work, I spent a lot of time with the kids. And so, plus I had, you know, I provided. So all my identity was wrapped up in all of those things. And I thought I was checking off all the boxes. And so one day I come home uh from work, and it might even be on a Saturday, I can't remember for sure, but she wanted to talk, and I thought, oh great, you know how that goes when your wife wants to talk to you. What am I in trouble for? And so I wasn't prepared for what she was about to tell me. And what she said to me that day was, I've changed you as much as I'm gonna change you. And that's been a lot, and I'm grateful for it. But you work too much, you spend all of the time that you have at home with the kids, and I want a divorce. And so part of me was happy about the divorce because I felt like I was only going to stay in it until my daughter turned 18, anyways. But when I left and moved out of our house, um, and I moved in with a friend of mine who had a couple other guys stay in his house, uh, I I realized that now I don't know who I am anymore. And so it was in another um, you know, the sports were the first thing, and then not having the right last name, and now we're we're in a marriage that failed, and now that identity's failed as well.

SPEAKER_06 20:02

Can I stop you for a second?

SPEAKER_01 20:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 20:04

Was there ever faith growing up as a kid? I mean, did you go to church? Did you were you ever introduced to any type of faith growing up?

SPEAKER_01 20:12

Yeah, we were taught like I I go to church with my my dad's mom sometimes as well. And um, and then my my grand my grandmother that I was really close to, she would talk about Jesus. And I believe I I believed in God. I was taught right from wrong based on the Bible, but we weren't real consistent with going to church. And so I did not have a relationship with Jesus. I probably looked at God as the big scary God in the sky that was punishing me for what I did wrong. And so that pro that compounded over time as I tell my story, because in order to once I was introduced to drugs, that was the way to drown out all the shame and guilt.

SPEAKER_06 20:53

So you go through a divorce.

SPEAKER_01 20:55

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 20:56

You move in with some guys. What happens next?

Toxic Relationship And Mental Health Spiral

SPEAKER_01 21:00

So when I when I moved in with my friend, um we we had drank casually in high school. I hadn't really hung out with him a lot um for for many years because I had been married and was um just wasn't living that lifestyle. And so uh I at first it was pretty it was a party, you know, and we were all functioning uh people because we all had really good jobs. And on the weekends we would we would party hard and they would, or they would party hard, and I was joining them, and they were they were mainly drinking in front of me at first. And then one night at a party, um, I had never seen drugs up to the point this point in my life. As a matter of fact, up to this point in my life, I was a judgmental person. If you smoked weed, I was, you know, you were a bad person. I wasn't going to hang out with you, let alone any of the harder things. And so I'd been drinking that night. I was depressed from not knowing who I was anymore. And I was just, so I like to say I was just drunk enough and Uh, depressed enough uh to try something that I probably normally wouldn't have tried. And so I noticed we'll go back to the girls. All these girls are going into this room, and there's guys in there too. And I'm, you know, recently divorced and I'm looking to go back to my old ways and to put some more notches in my belt. And so I walked into the room. I wasn't invited, but when I walked in, there was a table, it was a glass table, and there was drugs on it. And uh, you know, I'd seen from the movies, I knew what probably cocaine looked like, and that's one of the things that they were doing. And they offered it to me. And so for the first time in my life, um, because I was a little bit drunk and I was depressed and I had lost my identity, I thought, how can my life get any worse? And so I said yes. And so as soon as I tried cocaine for the first time, I fell in love with it. And I was off to the races. It took away everything. I mean, one, I could drink a lot more. Two, I felt the best that I had ever thought, felt, or I had ever felt. And I was brought up that drugs were bad. If you do them, you're a bad person and you're gonna die. Well, when I did the cocaine, none of that felt like that. It all felt great. And so I felt a little bit lied to, like I was misled over the drugs. And so I think um that caused me to really excuse me, is to take off like I was in a race. And so when I sobered up the next day when I woke up, um, it was later in the day because I was up most of the night on the on the substances. Um, I do remember feeling shame and guilt because of how I was taught. And the only way to get rid of that was to uh do more drugs. And so I didn't know how to get drugs, I didn't know any of the lingo. You know, I'm I'm new to this, and these guys are only really doing it on the weekends. And so from that point, I was introduced. Probably the next thing I was introduced to was ecstasy, because that was really a big thing in that time frame. In the see, my daughter was born in '99. So it was around the year 2000. And so I really liked that drug too, probably more than cocaine, because it didn't give you the yucky feeling. It lasted longer before you needed another hit. And another friend of mine's wife was an exotic dancer in Indianapolis, and they invited, he invited me to go with him while she worked one night. And so, you know, I don't know if you've ever been to a place like that. You're not really missing much, but going there on ecstasies, like probably being a little kid on a sugar high, going to Disney World for the first time. And and so his wife introduced me to one of the girls she worked with. Um, I ended up, we ended up partying all weekend at this fancy house out at Guy's Reservoir. I I learned that, hey, rich people do drugs too. And so the drugs they were doing, I associated with being socially acceptable. And when uh I asked her out at the end of that weekend, and it was about a week later, we went on our first date. That first date lasted seven days. I called off work, I stayed high almost the whole time, and shortly thereafter, we discovered that we were pregnant. And so earlier I mentioned that I thought my life couldn't get any worse. Um this was a very unhealthy, toxic relationship, not because she was toxic, it was just we were toxic together. And so I continued to uh do drugs, not around her, when I could get them at work or from people at work, because now I'm able to identify when somebody's high and when after my son was born. Well, I'll back up just a second. So, in the course of while she was pregnant, we split up a couple times. And then after my son was born, um, the drugs started back. She introduced me to a lot a whole world I didn't even know existed. I learned how to talk the lingo, I learned how to buy drugs, sell drugs, and I tried a lot more drugs on top of the other ones, about everything. And there was always a really good party. But the unfortunate part about our toxic relationship was about every six months, she found a new love of her life. You know, I was competing with the whole world that would come in and promise her everything for what she did for a living. So we couldn't even get in an argument, or when she went to work, someone was going to take her problems away. And so that went on for years. And each time it happened, I got further and further because I didn't want to be a failure twice. You know, I didn't want another marriage to fail. I hung on. And I was uh she it was just a toxic relationship. And um, I probably moved in and out six or seven times over the course of three or four years, um, start over every time. And the last time that I moved out, I was at a point where I didn't want to live anymore. And during and then around that time too, I had gone to the doctor and been diagnosed uh with as being bipolar and having ADHD. And when I went to the doctor that day, I'd done about an eight-ball of cocaine. And so I thought it's just because the drugs, why he diagnosed me this way. And it probably was. But I did think, I do think looking back, I had mental health problems based off of the drug use, not so much mental problems, because I never had mental health problems before. And so this relationship was rocky. I was kind of considering suicide for the first time in my life. Um, I didn't get another place to live. I was living extended stay to extended stay. Even though I made good money in the union, I didn't make enough money to live in those places and have the drug habit that I had. And so I remember feeling desperate. I didn't have any money for more drugs. I called my mom and dad to try, they were in South Carolina at this time, try to get them to give me some money. And my mom says, I'll call you back. And so when my mom called me back, she said, uh, um, I'm gonna tell you what, she goes, We're not gonna send you any money. But if you want a place to live, well, you can come down here and live with us, and we'll love you. And so they've been trying to get me to do this for years. Did they know? They did not know about the drugs. And and so I think they used the method of we're not gonna send you any money to get me to come down there because it because they knew I was going what I was going through with with my son's mom. Um I just want to say this I'm as equally responsible for that messed up relationship, so I'm not blaming her. Um, if anything, I'll take full responsibility for that because I was the head of the house. And um I continued to to just fuel the problem instead of trying to do the right thing. And so I would never go down there when they would ask because my thinking was I couldn't, my excuse was I couldn't do that to my kids. Well, the reality was I wasn't very good for my kids up here. Now, I wouldn't do drugs when I had them for a visit, but I usually would sleep the whole time I had them because I was coming down from using drugs. And so I decided, I told them, I said, I'm not coming down there to live, but I'll come down for a couple weeks. And so I was down there from 2005 to 2009. The first year I was there, um, I went through the first when I first got there, I went through a major detox. And I didn't, I had never detoxed before at this level. And I was mixed, I was doing opiates, and and uh I was mainly speeding. But so when I quit cold turkey and went down there, on top of the issues I was having mentally from the relationship and the drug use in general, I was also now having it because of the detox. I couldn't, I couldn't sleep because I thought spiders were crawling on me. So I would get up out of the bed, take all the blankets off, no spiders, get back in bed and do this over and over all night long. And because I didn't want to pace the hallway or go out of the bedroom because I didn't want to wake my parents up. I was trying to be respectful for them. And so went back to the, got some mental health uh diagnosis again, bipolar again, same thing, and ADHD. And he really, I think, based that on the detox and then also on the fact that um I just had, I was just going through it, you know what I mean? And he had some previous data from another doctor, so I think he was leaning on that. And so I started taking the medication and um things got better. Um, I got a really good job down there, which always seems to be what bails me out. You know, I screw up and would get my life back together and get a good job again. And so I thought I had control over my addiction up to this point. And so down there I did the same thing. Um, we were stalling windows and doors, uh, high-end houses in the mountains, like Geldwin, and I guess it doesn't matter the name brand, but we're talking houses I couldn't even afford the utilities on. We were putting windows in. And I got paid really well. And on the weekends, I was coming home, I was going out to the local bar. I was starting to meet people, and I was looking for drugs, but because I was a new guy in town, no one was going to give me any drugs. They thought maybe I was the police or something. And I met a guy who was gonna sell me some ecstasy, and he was Hispanic. And so I meet up with him, I met him at the bar, and then I met up with him later, and he didn't have ecstasy, but he had cocaine. And from that point forward, for the next couple years, me and him were best friends. Um, he didn't have a license because he got caught driving driving without them for so many times. I became his driver. And so by becoming his driver, that meant that I had unlimited access to drugs. And I was also making connections and learning how to become a drug dealer. And so it wasn't long before my my life was right back in the dumpster again. Um I ended up quitting my job. I became a full-time drug dealer for the first time because my buddy was in and out of jail all the time. And by proxy, I ended up being the guy he owed money to. They would call me. And so then they would get me on the hook to go and and sell drugs and to one, to repay his debt. And then two, well, once I stood got a taste of that, it was just an endless supply because if I had the drugs, I could have the girls. If I had the drugs, I had the power. And become the drug dealer almost became a better high than doing the drugs itself. And so I met uh uh, you know, some of the drugs come from like the Asian type of mafia, the other side come from uh or Asian gangs, and the other drugs come from the cartel side. And so I was making all kinds of scary contacts. And by the grace of God, I would never take more drugs that I could pay for because I didn't want to be on the hook. Because if something, something always happens, you get robbed. Um, if I've been robbed at gunpoint in Charlotte, North Carolina, being in places I shouldn't be at certain times of night. And then you don't have, you know, if you don't have their money, they don't care. You know what I mean? And so I didn't get caught up that deep in that way there. And so eventually my life was just destroyed down there too. So I'd left here to get better down there. And in 2005, um, I knew I needed to leave. And so I found a I I reached out to a friend that was in Indianapolis and he bought me a plane ticket and said I could stay at their house. And my mom and my dad dropped me off at the airport. That still at this time, I think one time they asked me if I was smoking crack. And I told them no, and I laughed at them, but they just asked the wrong question. So I didn't have to lie to them. I was doing a lot of cocaine, but I wasn't smoking crack.

SPEAKER_06 33:38

So they they knew something was up. Yes. They just didn't know what.

SPEAKER_01 33:42

Right. And I and they they come up in a time and era that, you know, it was their fault if I did, so it was easier to deny. I thought maybe that's still this time. You know, most parents don't want to. Maybe it's not that, because if it is that, maybe I did, I failed them in some way. And I think that's what they were struggling with. And they just didn't know how to navigate it. Um, my brothers didn't have this problem, that their family members didn't have this problem. Um, I've got some second and third cousins that have died from overdoses, but it wasn't really immediate, so my parents didn't know how to deal with it. So I remember that day they took me to the airport in Charlotte, and my mom handed me a$20 bill right before I got on an airplane. So I had a duffel bag by this time, just I had very many clothes left because I left them everywhere. I didn't have very many things that I could take. And so I had a small bag of clothes and a$20 bill, and they put me on that airplane. And I remember my mom's heart, it just seemed like it was breaking, but I needed to get out of there. And so I got back to Indianapolis and I was I I worked two jobs. I ended up moving out of my friend's house and got my own apartment. I ended up getting a car, things were going in the right direction again.

SPEAKER_06 34:55

Were you clean?

SPEAKER_01 34:56

Well, I was clean in my own mind because I wasn't doing heroin, I wasn't doing math, and I wasn't doing uh cocaine, I was just doing other people's prescriptions. And so to me, I the I was still justifying it. And so I was I was either Adderall or opiates or uh pain pills. And so that wasn't super out of control. Um, but for the most part, I would say I was sober and I was very functional again. And my at this time, how old are your kids? So my daughter is just getting ready to start high school, and my son is two years younger, so he he was at like maybe 10 or 11.

SPEAKER_06 35:38

Did you did you have contact with them when you were down there?

SPEAKER_01 35:41

Well, yes. So that was the other. So when I was in South Carolina, especially the beginning years, about once a month I'd made that drive. I'd either stay up here or sometimes it would be around the holiday, and I would bring them back to South Carolina. My my son wasn't at that when I first moved down there, my son was only three or four. But by the time I got back to Indianapolis, he was a little bit older. So I'm spending time with them like a like a normal divorced dad would. I'm getting them every other weekend and um and whatever this the parenting guidelines dictate on holidays. And so I have a relationship with them. And and and I wasn't super spun out when I come back. So they were getting uh a pretty good version of me at that point.

SPEAKER_06 36:24

I'm gonna stop you for a second. You know, you talk about you know, it's one thing to go through that addiction. But now when you're when you're down there, now you're dealing and you're you're working with cartels. I mean, you're I I assume some very dangerous people. Was there ever a time you were fearful, or were you just completely numb to everything that was going on?

SPEAKER_01 36:49

No, I was pretty fearful. The first time I went into what they call a trap house, um, it and it was the Hispanic people, I was with my Hispanic friend, and I was the only white person that didn't, and the only person that didn't speak Spanish in the room. And there was, you know, automatic weapons laying everywhere. There's girls running around in their underwear in a brawl, just like you see in the movie, so they can't stash the drugs. And the attic was full of drugs. And I could tell by the tone they were sharing with my friend in Spanish that they were really nervous about me. And so that made me really nervous and scared at that time because, you know, am I gonna make it out of here? And uh I remember they they did this test, they brought this great big huge plate of cocaine and uh and they had made a big line. And I thought the test was for me to do that whole thing, and I did it. And then I was just known as kind of the crazy white guy because I wasn't supposed to do that whole thing. I mean, I can laugh at it now, but it's lucky that didn't kill me as well. And so I gained some street creds, so to speak, with them at that point. Um and uh but um I was always nervous going into the the hood, so to speak, whether it be you know the black people or what the white hood or wherever it was, because um you just never know who was going to rob you. But that all goes out the window because you're trying to make you're trying to keep this thing going. And and uh and the thrill of being the dope man, like I said, probably kept me in it longer than I normally would have been. I wasn't a very good dope man. I gave more drugs away than I than I ever sold or partied with people.

SPEAKER_06 38:31

But you were just completely consumed inside and out.

South Carolina Detox Then Dealing Again

SPEAKER_01 38:35

Yes. And so when I came, just like when I went to South Carolina, I had a a little a small season of where I had some recovery and I and I got my life back together, but I was patting myself on the back. And so what I've learned is that without Jesus, I couldn't sustain any of that. And as a little bit later, we'll share, I'll share more of that part of that, more of that story. Um we're but when I was in Indianapolis, my daughter was getting ready to start high school, and I felt like I needed to get back to Richmond because um she needed a dad because she was getting to be at that age. And my son's mom had gotten remarried and moved to Illinois. And so she was taking my son to Illinois, and I thought, well, there's no point in me being in Indianapolis. And so I come back here and I actually stayed, rented a room from my ex-wife for a little while. So I was living where my daughter was living that her freshman year of high school. Uh I I ran into and started hanging out with uh my ex-brother-in-law, and he introduced me to some uh a drug called Suboxin. And I was just getting a little pinch from him every day for about a year, and then he got in trouble for driving without a license and went to prison. And so that source went away. I thought it wasn't going to be that big a deal. I was working at Primax at the time, and um, and when I quit taking that, I got sick. Like I'm talking, I thought the dope sick was bad at the beginning in South Carolina. This was both ends. Anytime I consumed any liquid, it was like violent vomiting. And I thought I was dying. I didn't know what was wrong with me. And uh, so I was trying to find drugs to substitute, and I really started leaning on because pain pills by this time are hard to get a hold of, you know, because the doctors equipped prescribing them. The people that are on them, they're they're not coming off of them. And so the only alternative to not be dope sick was heroin or to find more Suboxin or Subutex. And Suboxin is the same thing that Joni took, right? Yes. And it and I think it can be used in the right way, but it's not what they promised. They promised that it was not going to be habit forming and it didn't get you high. Kind of sounds like oxycotton by Purdue pharmacy, doesn't it? You know, that we know the result of that. And so when uh in the pursuit of that, I was just taking anything not to get sick. And I got hurt at work, and I just snorted a morphine pill that another guy had had. And when I was, it was towards the end of the shift, they have grinders there to chop up the plastic. You shut the power off. I I did all the safety procedures and I cleaned it out for the changeover, just put it back together, and there's a thing that rotates in there that you got to make sure it's not dragging on the screen. And so I had this hand up here with a glove on, and it wouldn't move. And when I finally got it to move, it's got a weighted tumbler and it sucked this hand in. Now it wasn't powered up, but the weight and it smashed that finger. I had gloves on, and I thought the finger might be in there cut off. But I couldn't tell. Or I should, even though I should have, the drugs led me just to go home and I try tried to super glue it myself. And um, so in that process, I learned never to do that again because the next day it was in it was already getting infected and swelling, and and I had to go to the hospital. And they had to take the get the super glue off there to see what was going on. And I almost cut a nerve and some other stuff in two. And I ended up losing my job at Primax over it because I didn't report it. Plus, they can't prove that I was on drugs, but they kind of figure I I was because by this time they already had me on pain medication from the hospital. So I lost that job. And around that time, um, my parents moved back from South Carolina. So that once again bailed me out. They let me move in with them. I was gonna lose the place I was living, but I was trying to get off the subox and now with the pain pills I was getting for the hand. But because I wasn't ready, I had a trigger finger on the other hand. I went and had surgery on it while this hand wasn't healed, so that I could make sure I was gonna keep getting those pain pills. But my plan was to sell half the pain pills and only take half, and then I wouldn't be as dope sick. Now, I accomplished the goal of getting off the suboxin, but the and then it took a little bit longer to get off the pain pills. When I moved in with my parents, I I quit for a whole year, I didn't go anywhere. I was still not released to go back to work anywhere. I was still recovering from both surgeries, but I wasn't taking the pain pills anymore. I I detoxed off of those. I was reading self-help books. Um, I quit looking up porn, I quit having sex. And so at the end of that year, I patted myself on the back because I I did it. I, you know, Donald overcome this thing once again. And so, what do you think the first thing I rewarded myself was with porn? Then the porn led to sex, and then the sex led to getting drugs because it was easier to get girls to do things you've seen in the porn if it was girls who did drugs because it just made them uh I guess more. It just sounds bad, but that's that's the reality of it. And so I was off to the races again. But it was mainly just dabbling a little bit. Nothing at that time I wasn't, I was still just kind of seeking out pain pills in ecstasy a little bit, but it was getting dangerous. And it was, you never knew what that was loaded up with. And uh it was time to go back to work. I went to work with a local contractor building pole barns. And um, and then also at this time I bought my old race car back, like a dirt track car, and I was getting that put back together with a friend of mine and was going to race, and I got a good job opportunity uh working for a contractor at Indianapolis doing uh uh the uh substations upgrades and electrical substations. And uh about six or seven months into that job, we'd already started racing and we were doing pretty good that year. And one day on that job site, I walked into the job trailer and I thought they were snorting cocaine. I caught my boss and somebody else doing it, and they immediately offered me some because they didn't want me to tell, right? And I thought it was coke, and I said, sure, I'll try it. And I tried it and it and it I thought they had poisoned me because it burnt so bad, and it turned out it was meth. And um, I had tried meth before, but didn't like it because it was in the middle of my cocaine days. It just didn't wasn't the same, but it had a different effect on me this time. Um, what I learned was it helped me get through the day because we worked long days and it was hard work. Um, and I I could function on it better than I could on the cocaine. And so there began a whole nother uh opening the door to darkness. And it seems like every time that I would go back in, I'd go deeper and it would get darker. And so I don't think I the devil thought I was going to escape his his claws this time because I was that drug addict that started out that, hey, I'm doing coke, at least I'm not smoking crack. And then I'd smoke crack and I'd feel shame and guilt. And then I'd say, well, I'm smoking crack, at least I'm not doing heroin. And then I'd do heroin. And then it just would progress and it progressed that way all the way till I was using the needle. And this was around 2016, 17 timeframe. Um, I'll end up losing the job with the good job I had at the working for the contractor out of Indianapolis and decided to be a full-time drug dealer. And I didn't lose the job because I wasn't performing. I I left I lost the job because I kept being, I quit working for my boss that was the drug addict and went to work for another boss. And I could never get to work on time. It wasn't that I wasn't up, I just couldn't make it. I'd get busy doing something, tinkering around the hotel room because we we stayed out of town. And so I come back to Richmond and um I start dealing drugs here in Richmond. And anywhere else that I could deal them, I start going to Dayton, I start making connections, I start living uh life in the fast lane again. And there uh anyone who's ever experienced once you go to the needle, it's a whole different game. So the picture of the mugshot that you guys saw on the trailer, that six months before that, I wasn't using the needle, and you would have had a hard time telling I was on drugs. I mean, you might if you if you knew me, knew me, you might by my actions, but to look at me physically, I didn't look like that. But that's how quick once I went to the needle, it nearly took me out. And so I had a an overdose here in Richmond in two in 2017. And by all means, I should have died that night because I'm in a trap house with prostitutes, with a pocket full of drugs, my car keys and a pocket full of money. And when I overdosed, we'll all go back. So that was the weekend, that was the night or the weekend I decided I was gonna try the needle. And what I decided I was gonna do was I was gonna shoot up coke, heroin, and meth once each different day. I was gonna try them out because I'd done all those drugs, I was gonna see what it was like shooting them up. And so uh I remember thinking the cocaine didn't last very long. Uh the meth was pretty good, liked it. And then I was real reluctant to the heroin because I was so many people were dying. And I made sure I just did a little bit. And the person I was with, she she's the one who stuck me with the needle all three times. And she's the one who wouldn't let me die. So I remember having an outer body experience where I felt like I was physically walking on the side of the walls, and I just wanted to lay down. Uh, the best way I can maybe relate this is I don't know if you ever drank and get the spins and you lay on the bed and you stick one foot off on the floor and the spins go away, you go to sleep, and you wake up and you're fine. And so that was what I thought. If I just laid down, this feeling that I have right now for the heroin will go away. And she won't let me lay down. And I used to tell this, like I remember from this point forward. But the the reality is I don't remember any of this. Um, she told me a story and I repeated it as my testimony. But I stayed on my feet, I backed into a corner, and for over an hour, um I was turning blue, white, red, whatever other color, sweating, not sweating, breathing, not breathing. And she finally um she said, she told me, she goes, if if you don't give me a sign, I'm calling 911 because I'm not going to be responsible for you dying. And she said, about that time, I started tapping my finger on the wall. And she, that was the sign. And I believe I used to tell it as I held myself up in that corner, but I believe Jesus was there with me in that mess that night. And he's the one who kept me alive. He's the one that held me up in the corner. He's the one who tapped my finger on the wall so she wouldn't call 911. But the sad part about it is the next day, I didn't, because I didn't remember, it wasn't painful. It was like uh it didn't even happen. And I was that person prior to overdose that said people shouldn't get dark in. Because if you're gonna keep making that same mistake, why should you keep getting it more chances? And what I realized in that moment was that it's not painful, it's actually peaceful when you're overdosing and dying off that stuff. And so it gave me a different uh vantage point of what it was like to be someone who was overdosing multiple times and and how hard it is to get away from it.

SPEAKER_06 50:47

So that wasn't the end. No, that wasn't the end. And that wasn't the bottom. No.

unknown 50:55

No.

SPEAKER_06 50:56

So where do you go from here?

Back To Indiana Then Suboxone Withdrawal

SPEAKER_01 50:57

So this was, I believe it was that was 2017 when I overdosed that first time. And uh I just I was wide open. You know, I felt like there was no turning back at this point and didn't really feel blessed to even be alive. I kept dealing drugs, but what what started to happen was more things started getting stripped away. Um we were at a we were at a party out in the country in New Paris, and I had I had still had a car at that time. I still had my license at that time. I was making enough money off the drugs to keep going, but barely. And we were, we, I had some people I didn't even know who they were with me. And one of the people, one of the person knew them. And so somebody else's girlfriend gets a shot in the neck. It's supposed to be meth, but it's not, it's heroin. She overdoses and is dying in the gravel, and they wanted to leave her out in the woods. And I was like, no, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. And so my goal, my op, I was going to take her straight to the hospital. And they're like, no, we got to get out because there's people with me with warrants and everything else. And so they call 911 from the back seat on the way in and tell me to go to McDonald's, but to let them out somewhere else. And so that's where I went, the McDonald's on the east side. And so I that was the first time I got arrested. Now the girl lived. Praise God for that. And um I went to jail, my car got impounded, and I didn't have the money to get it out. I was probably going to lose the car to because I hadn't make payments on it, anyways. And so now I I'm hope not only am I homeless, but I also now don't have any transportation. And I had been ripped off enough times that I didn't really have a lot of money to re-up. So I started um taking things that didn't belong to me. And for the hardest time, it was hard to admit that I had become a thief. And um, and I still to this day like saying, taking things that don't belong to me, but to make it just to be real about it, I was stealing things and I justified it. Um, that I was just usually it was architectural salvage, and I was just, and my I had a dope man that would take that and trade for the dope. And I did that for a while, and then I was selling the stuff that I was getting from him, and so I was just being real creative. And so I just kept going. So when I got arrested in Richmond, I was in jail for about 48 hours. And then because of the way it fell, they OR you until you're court. So I leave the jail, walk out the back door, down the alley to one of my trap houses where I've got dope and some of my belongings because I don't really have a place I'm living. I'm just because I'm the dope man, I get to stay at these people's houses. And so I didn't go to court. I got I got pulled over walking in New Paris, and they had a warrant for my arrest for failure to appear, and they put me in jail in Eden. I spent seven days in Eaton. They brought me extra driving me back to Richmond. I went in front of the judge, and it was so wild that day that I was the last person to go. There's about 30 people in front of me, and the judge told every person, good luck. You know, he was real encouraging. And when I got up there, he says, he goes, How about you just try to stay alive out there? And I was offended. But it made me think, why did he say all those encouraging things to everyone else? Do I look that bad? And so I still didn't get it at that point. And I didn't really even remember him saying that until um after I got my head got cleared out and from the drugs. So it didn't slow me down. You know, once again, out the back door of the jail, down the alley to the same house, and right back, sticking a needle in my arm. And by this time, I was running out of places to stay in Richmond. I didn't have a car, but I had a friend in Liberty whose dad, where his dad's house or trailer was, it was there, they had an RV. And so this is the middle of winter, uh, into 2017. I don't know if you've ever been in an RV in the winter.

SPEAKER_06 55:02

It's cold.

SPEAKER_01 55:02

It's cold, man. All that air blows up underneath. And so it was really cold in there. And the night before I got arrested, my phone broke. But like all good dope dealers, you got a box full of phones ready to go because you've taken them on trade. And so I didn't have any service. So I was going to have to walk down to someplace like the Shell there in Liberty or something and get Wi-Fi and activate my phone. Um, I had some other plans to go re-up that night. I didn't make it to do that either. I ended up falling asleep. And so the phone I had in my pocket had no contacts. Um, I had very little drugs, like maybe a half a gram, and then some syringes in this RV. And the next morning I got up, you know, my plan was when I did wake up, I woke up to other people in the RV with me. And I didn't have enough drugs to share. So I just got out of the RV because that's what they were there for. They were wanting drugs. And when I got out, um, I had remembered I was working on some frozen pipes in the trailer for my buddy's dad. And so I started doing that and just hoping they were going to get out of the RV so I could go get high. And when I'm doing that, this guy walks up holding the gun and being really rude and nasty. And I'm like, I don't know who you are. I mean, I bucked up to him and told him, You're on private property, you need to get off here. Well, it ended up being a parole agent for my my buddy. And uh I probably shouldn't have said the things I said to him, but my buddy was in not in the RV, he was in the trailer. And so I tell him that, and he wanted to know who was in the RV, and I went and give him the names. They had locked the door by this time. And so he went with me to get my buddy out of the trailer. And when he did that, the people in the RV took off running. And so my buddy, and I don't know why I didn't leave. You know, it was the weirdest thing. I just felt like he's not here for me, I'm not in trouble. And so my buddy took him right in, showed him where my stuff was, and basically saved my life that day. I wasn't happy about it at the time because I felt like he ratted on me, but it actually saved my life. And so I remember getting handcuffed by the parole agent and sitting on the front steps, and the city police are coming, lights are on, all the neighbors are standing outside, and I'm reflecting how did I get to there? You know, I wasn't a star athlete, but I was a pretty popular kid. I was raised good. Um, how did I get to this point where I'm hopeless, I'm homeless, and I'm a drug addict, but I was in denial of it. But the most amazing thing happened while I was sitting there was I felt peace I hadn't felt in years. I was sitting there with handcuffs, getting ready to go to jail in my hometown. My worst fear ever, because now everybody's going to know my secret. Well, everyone already knew my secret. I just was in denial that they knew. And but I felt peace for the first time. And um, that's when everything started to change. I believe that was a divine encounter that day that I got arrested.

SPEAKER_06 58:03

So there's a word that's been coming to me the whole time you've been sharing your story because and discipline is the word. And uh, you know, Ben and I are are firm believers that discipline is love. And throughout your whole testimony here, you always keep finding a way out, whether that's through someone coming and helping you, being there, you know, when when maybe you should have been arrested or or something should have happened. There was never any discipline until you get the handcuffs on you in your hometown.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 58:45

Maybe that's why you felt peace because you actually finally had some discipline in your life where you were gonna be held accountable.

Meth And The Descent To The Needle

Overdose And A Life That Still Continued

SPEAKER_01 58:54

Yeah, and I had no idea what was gonna happen. So the fear of getting arrested in Liberty was it's a small community. Everybody's gonna know. Within minutes, everybody's gonna know, and there's gonna be a lot of speculation. And the day I get out of this jail, they're gonna run me out of town with pitchforks and torches because I brought bad stuff into their community, because I had really avoided dealing drugs in liberty or even trying to be high there. It was mainly because I didn't want to shame my parents. That was through all of this, I always had that in the back of my mind, or you know, and uh, and I was even kind of community conscience conscious to a sense, but not enough to keep me from doing it. And so I go to jail, I'm sitting there, and this is going to be the first time that I'm in jail longer than a couple days. Uh, because at this point, um, I didn't have any money to have somebody come bail me out. I couldn't, and and I went to, remember how I said I went to had that phone in my pocket? There was no contacts in there. So I had nobody's phone number. And it's not like it was in the 80s when we memorized phone numbers. The only one I had memorized and could remember was my mom's. And that was really the last person I wanted to call at the time. And so when I went to jail uh the first couple days, I was just still in denial. And but that first day, you know, you you go in, I wasn't dressed very warm. I'm sure that I didn't smell very well. And I know I didn't look the greatest either. And this big mountain of a guy, the jail commander, is I'm you know, I've got I'm shackled. He's uh treating me like a human being, showing me love that I didn't even have for myself. And I thought it was strange. I didn't know how to receive it. You know, he's he's done offered me a meal, so I've ate. Now he's offered me clean, warm clothes and a shower and a place to sleep that was safe. I'd have to look over my shoulder. And I just remember feeling like, wow, why are they being so nice to me? Because I don't deserve this. And and like every jailer in there looked, I mean, I was 130 pounds by this time. So everybody looked big to me. And uh, but but the jail commander was, you know, he's probably about six, four, three hundred pounds at the time, and um just showing me that love. And so by that afternoon, this was on a Thursday, um, we were out of the drunk tank, so to speak. I'd gotten to sleep, I've gotten two meals already in one day, and I'm pretty charged up, you know, uh find out that they're have jail ministry on Thursday nights. I was like, oh no, no, no, I'm not doing that. Jesus is the last thing I need. I'm not worthy. Why would he want to help me now? And besides, I don't want to be that guy that gets jailhouse religion and then becomes a hypocrite because I had convinced myself from a long from from experience, I had tried to be perfect my whole life and failed miserably. So I knew it was impossible for us to be perfect. Not from a biblical standpoint, I just knew it was impossible. So in my mind, everybody that was in a church were hypocrites. And so I didn't want to be that. And uh but what happened was the guys that were in jail said, hey, when they come in tonight, they have homemade cookies. So what really got me jail ministry the first night was cookies. And it just happened to be my favorite, Snickerdoodles. And so for the next couple weeks, I went back for the cookies. That was the only reason, that's really the only reason. But I remember thinking the two gentlemen that come in, you know, the same guys have come in every week. Why are they taking time out of the there? What's their motive? What's driving them? You know, what what what's really going on here? They're coming in here and ministering to us heathens, and and they're pretty consistent. And so the the jail was going to bring someone in from outside in this company called Aspire to check people for HIV and hepatitis. And because before I got arrested, um, the very first time months ago, I had uh infection in my knee, and my knee had swelled up really big, and I had to get it drained, and it was and it was uh basically uh it was just a blood, it was a blood uh disorder that I had infected blood. And when I was uh, so I thought I probably should get checked. I could have hepatitis, I might even have HIV. I don't know. I've been using needles, I've been sharing needles. And I thought everyone I was in there with, because almost everybody I was in there with, I knew, I grew up with, and they were all doing drugs with me, that they would get checked too. But I was the only person. But the really the reason I think I really got checked that day, or volunteered to do it, was because I related in my mind, giving blood, and I thought I might be getting juice and cookies. And so when I went in there, there was no juice and cookies, but what I got was better. And this is one of my favorite testimonies inside my testimony. So I went into the booking room that day with my head down, thinking on all the reasons why I can't. I'll never gonna get a job again. I'm a felon. My parents are never gonna speak to me because I got arrested in liberty. My kids aren't gonna talk to me, and my life is over. That's that's how I went into the booking room that day to get tested for HIV and hepatitis. And so I'm sitting in there, the jailer that's in there with me, I went to high school with. So it's someone I trusted. I didn't know the lady from Aspire. And so I'm sitting there, I'm in handcuffs for safety reasons, and uh both my ankles and my wrist. And she says, I'm gonna ask you some questions. Can you answer them? I said, Yeah. So she asked me my name, my birthday, all that kind of stuff. And she goes, now for the hard part. And I was like, no, so I stuck my arm out, like that was the hard part. She goes, What are you doing? I said, Well, you're gonna take my blood, right? She goes, No, no, that's not the hard part. The hard part is the series of questions I'm getting ready to ask you. She goes, Now, all I need you to do is answer yes or no to these questions. And I, and she goes, Can you do that? I said, Yeah, I can do that. How hard's that? Just say yes or no, right? And the first question she asked me was, Have you ever drank alcohol? And I said, Yes, but I didn't really like, and she says, Stop. She goes, Remember when that part you said you'd answer yes or no? Have you ever drank alcohol? And so I remember gritting my teeth and kind of curling up my toes and not happy, but I said yes. So the next question she asked me, have you ever smoked marijuana? I said, yeah, but and she stopped me again. And I had to answer yes or no. And I answered yes. And so this went on for about 20 or 30 other questions. Some of them were sexual stuff that you've, you know, jeopardized yourself in. And those were, I just answered those correctly. But every jar related question, she had to stop me and ask me to say just yes or no. So we get to the end. She takes some some blood, which is a prick in your finger. I didn't get any cookies, I didn't get any juice. But what I got was so much better that day because in that moment, I remember sitting there thinking, wow, I'm a drug addict. And about that time, that thought. Completed in my head, the jailer that was in there with me says, Do you feel better? I was like, Better for what? And she says, For what you just said. I said, I didn't say anything. She goes, Yeah, you just said you're a drug addict. I said, I said that out loud. She goes, Yeah. And so I said it again out loud. Wow, I'm a drug addict. And when I did it the second time, I felt something lift off of me. Something just I felt like. I felt like I was high. Um, matter of fact, I remember kind of processing the feeling and thinking, did I have drugs stuck somewhere in my body that just released? Because it was the most high I'd ever felt in my life. I instantly had some hope. It wasn't a lot, but I had some. And um in Celebrate Recovery, they talk about I think it's step four. It says, uh, when you when you confess to someone you trust, to God and yourself, you can be healed. Um, that's the beginning of it. And so I believe that's what happened that day. And I believe that that moment for me, deliverance was instantaneous. And I believe that Jesus had been trying to call. This is me looking back. Like I didn't remember, I didn't know how to talk the lingo about Jesus at that point. But looking back, I remember thinking in that in that moment that this is this is amazing. I I didn't know what it was, but I had been delivered. There was a noticeable change. And so when I got up and they were taking me back, I felt like I floated back to the booking room. And so my like my wife, hers was gradual, her deliverance. She'll she'll share that. But I believe that Jesus was so excited that I finally acknowledged him, that he gave me such a power powerful encounter, and he snatched me out of the claws of the devil that day. Because instantly everything started changing. Like when I walked out of that booking room, I was no longer thinking, why I can't. I was thinking, well, maybe I can. I was like the little engine that could. I was thinking, maybe my parents will talk to me again. Maybe I can work again. Maybe my children, and maybe now that I know I'm admitting that I'm a drug addict, I can get help. And I didn't know what that looked like. But I know when I went back to the cell, instantly, anxiety because I was talking to the other guys about telling war stories, uh, talking about women, you know, just being real disrespectful. So the only way I could get rid of the anxiety was not to have those conversations. Now, this happened over the course of the next rest of the time I was in jail. And then I couldn't watch TV because the TV did the same thing. The only thing that gave me peace was avoiding those things and reading the Bible. Well, I think there was a red letter, King James, and I believe the King James translation is written in tongues because I needed an interpreter, right? And so I'm not understanding any of it. But a beautiful thing happened. Two things. While I was in jail, um the jail commander, I found out was also a pastor, and he was bringing these packets, and I noticed he was giving them the guys. I didn't know what they were, I just knew they were something to do with Jesus, and I didn't want nothing to do with that before my encounter. And so he started bringing those in for me as well. And I started reading those. And then as I was reading those, I was starting to understand what the Bible was saying. Now, Billy Graham passed away while I was in jail that year too. And so the only TV that I could watch that didn't give me anxiety was, and there was a slew of it on all his whole life. And so these guys would get up and eat breakfast and go back to sleep. And so that was the only time that I could get TV that wasn't that I could control. And I started watching the history of Billy Graham, and something about that just lit me up. I didn't understand it because I I I had never really even uh entertained knowing anything about Billy Graham other than that he was an evangelist prior to that point. And uh it was just beautiful. So these are encounters I'm having while I'm in jail. And I noticed when I'm just sharing with people in jail Bible verses that I'm reading, or some of that discipleship packet, the whole block would be like sitting listening to me talk. And then I quit talking because it made me feel weird. Like, why are you staring at me that way? Um, because I thought they were making fun of me. Well, while while I was in jail, I had a second outbreak of the blood disorder, and it was in my hand right here, and my hand swelled up real big. And so I reported that there was something wrong, what I thought it was. And it was by the grace of God they took me to the doctor, because I think in hindsight, they probably thought I punched something or got in a fight. And but they took me, and it was it was the same thing. I had uh that infection in my blood, and I had to have surgery while I was in jail. And it was another uh point in case where I was I realized I was really a drug addict because it felt good when I came out of surgery because they had knocked me out, plus they had me on pain medication there, and I seen there was a prescription that they were sending back to the to the jail. Um, it was for Percocet 10s, and I was like, oh, I'm gonna get they're gonna give those to me. And it turns out you don't get those in jail. And but but I learned that aspirin or Tylenol and Advil actually work because I had never taken those, not high. So I didn't even know they worked. But that relieved the pain enough to get over that. So that taught me I don't need pain medication in that situation. But through the course of going back and forth to the follow-up visits, you know, I haven't got saved yet. And um, I'd said a prayer when I was nine, but I didn't know if that really counted. And I know I wasn't following Jesus. But on these trips back and forth to the doctor, guess who took me? The jail commander, who was the pastor. And so I remember the second or third trip, you know, he's got me in the backseat. I'm handcuffed, hands behind my back, buckled in. And we start talking about Jesus. And this this guy starts swerving. And I'm thinking, he must be drunk or high or something. He's gonna kill us. I'm gonna die in this cop car. And uh what what I learned later was he he was hit with the Holy Spirit. So he wasn't really drunk and he wasn't really swerving that bad, but it it was it was noticeable from the backseat. And uh, and so I he just started really sewing into me. I could ask him questions on these trips. It was like one-on-one, and he he just continued to love on me like he did the first day that I got in the jail. And so I was in jail for about 60 days, and I finally go in front of the judge. Now, the first time I went in front of the judge, I went with the the guy that told on me. I went, me and him went together, like our arraignment or that initial hearing, and the judge spoke to him first. Now, the judge I went to high school with too, because it's liberty. Everybody knows everybody, right? And he rips into my friend. I'm talking like I'm like, oh no. This he's not gonna say, or he's not really gonna be kind to me. And so he looked at me, said my name, brought the charges, and gave me the silent treatment. And I was, or it felt like the silent treatment. And I was like, man. So I left me leaving there, that first visit with him, thinking, why didn't I just rather him yelled at me? And so I had almost 60 days before I went back to him. I had two charges, two felonies, one for possession and one for uh possession of a syringe. And they end up dropping the drugs because it there wasn't really that much there. And if I would just take the syringe charge. So I'm in there, and the jail commander, which is the pastor, is in there with me. He's the one who took me to court that day. And it's my turn. I get up in front of the judge, and the judge says, I'm gonna give you time served. He goes, and I'm gonna let you out of jail on April 1st. And I thought, this guy's got jokes. First, he wouldn't talk to me. Now he's he's acting like he's gonna let me out on April Fool's Day. And I really got out of jail on April's fool, April Fool's Day 2018. But when I got back to the jail, I realized that was on a Sunday. And I had promised myself and God and Pastor Ed, the jail commander, I'd go to his church that first Sunday. And uh it turns out that first Sunday that I went to church was also Easter Sunday that year. And so then I was scared to death because here I am. I'm going, not only am I going to church today, but it's the busiest day. You know, I knew enough about church that a lot of people go on Christmas and Easter. And I was instantly, I didn't know how people were going to treat me. But I I didn't know that much about the Bible. I didn't know the story of the prodigal son. After I read that for the first time, that was the encounter I had when I walked into that church that day. We walked in through the back door and everybody hugged me. People, and there was a lot of people I went to high school with there, and I thought, well, I seen them, I thought, oh, they're gonna ask me questions, they're gonna judge me. This is gonna be horrible. But no one treated me bad. And it was a beautiful thing, and it's what I needed. And that whole first year of going to church there, I didn't know how to be, I didn't know when to say hallelujah. I didn't know when if I was supposed to raise my hand. I didn't really know the difference between God, the Holy Spirit, and Jesus. But they were patient with me. And the first opportunity I got to serve, other than I was always trying to pick up sticks out in the yard or fix something inside the church. Uh, but was there was a Sunday they had an opaque projector. And so there was a person, and it was a guy who moved that around during praise and worship. And praise and worship, there you repeat the verses. Like sometimes they go a whole hour. And I remember sitting there, sometimes under my breath, thinking, man, the praise and worship singer just likes to hear herself sing. She keeps singing this over and over again. And and but I just kept sitting there. I just kept going back. And so I was judging as well the guy doing the slides because he was never paying attention. He always had his hands up. And it used to make me so mad. So he didn't come one Sunday. And the praise and worship leader, she said, uh, hey, will you do this for me, Donald? And I said, Yes. And I was like, Yeah, I'm gonna be the best opaque projector. I'm gonna pay attention. And so, so uh what happened in that moment? One, I got to serve, so I got outside myself. And second, it wasn't long before because I wanted to real, it's the perfectionism in me. I wanted to do a really good job. So people always had these lyrics. And uh, so I had to really pay attention to the songs that she was singing, learn her patterns, and be on top of it. And so by doing that, the words were starting to hit in my heart. I was starting to realize, hey, these words are in the Bible. They're not just up here singing songs for filler to keep us here longer. There's something to this. And so it wasn't long before I was getting wrecked by the Holy Spirit. And I wasn't, I had my hands up and I wasn't moving the slide anymore. And so a lot of healing happened in that moment. I mean, I mean, I learned that, hey, I might have a critical spirit, and two, that um, there's a purpose to all this, and that I needed to not try to cut at it from an intellectual standpoint, but more of a spiritual and from a heart place.

SPEAKER_06 1:17:10

And um was there was there ever a pull to go back to the old Donald?

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

Um, I would say the closest thing to a pull, I can say no to the drugs, the zilch, which blows my mind. Um, I believe I got delivered that day from a lot of things in that booking room. It wasn't just the drugs, but when I left, I picked back up smoking or vaping. And I struggled with that up until about uh maybe eight months ago. I wasn't smoking or vaping anymore, but I just gradually quit would do different things. And I was kind of doing a combination between these nicotine packets that doesn't have tobacco, um, and then also the lozenges. And so I I did that for a little while. And um I finally uh one day the Lord said, just quit playing around, lay it down. But it was that was I believe the Lord took that away from me in the beginning. He also took away the porn, but I picked that back up uh and twice early in my walk looked at porn and felt so much conviction and then condemnation for it. But something greater inside of me made me repent for it immediately. And the second time I looked after her after I repented, I've never looked back. But this the the weird part about that is I can be on Facebook or watching TV. A girl can be in a swimsuit, didn't have to be porn, but those neuropathways remember scenes. I mean, I was the type of person that would sit down on math watching porn, and two days later think I got back to the beginning of Pornhub. And that's that's crazy. One, you can't ever get back to the beginning, but the crazier part is for 48 hours, I'm high looking at porn, not even really paying attention because nothing is there's there's no sensitivity left for it. Everything is numbing. Like it just busy. And so I would say those two things, but the drugs, no.

unknown 1:19:06

No.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:10

How long have you been sober now?

Arrested In Liberty And Unexpected Peace

SPEAKER_01 1:19:12

Uh a little over eight years. A little over eight years. And what are you doing? So my wife and I um are directors of Crossroad Christian Recovery Center here in Richmond. And what amazes me to this day about that, about Crossroad is Crossroads' been in place for over 15 years, and there's still people that don't know anything about it. I mean, it's at the old TB hospital, the old big scary building in between Liberty and uh Richmond. And um, Joni and I have been out there for about five years. But there's a there's a story leading up to that that I'd like to share. Sure. And so my after I did the opaque projector thing, the when I was in jail, my biological dad brought me in a celebrate recovery study Bible. And it was weird because a couple weeks before he brought this, he didn't bring it in, he sent it in through the jail ministry. Um, I would remember reading the Bible and thinking, Jesus, it sure would be cool if there was a a Bible that had notes in it for recovery. Because I hadn't, I didn't know what celebrate recovery was. And so this Bible shows up. And so the Bible was important because that was kind of an answered prayer, because I didn't even know it existed. But the second blessing was that my biological dad sent it. And so I mentioned that earlier that um my mom and dad told me that my dad wasn't my real dad. And I had met my biological dad, and we we had kind of an awkward relationship. I have some other siblings with him, uh, two sisters and two brothers. And so he was a politician and a local businessman. So I definitely thought he was never gonna talk to me again. So when he sent that Bible in, what happened was I realized he wanted, he still wanted something to do with me. And that really touched my heart because I was like, man, he's not gonna talk to me. And my mom didn't even know I was in jail. Nobody told them my parents I was in jail. And I missed coming home. I didn't reach out. My birthday was February 23rd. I got arrested February 1st. And after I didn't reach out to my mom on my birthday, she thought I was dead. And still no one's telling her. And so finally she was working at a school lunch cafeteria, and she said that she thought I was dead to somebody. And they told her I was in jail. So she came down to the jail. Um, and I had just gotten to the point where they gave me stamps because I didn't have anybody giving me commissary. And I had written my mom a letter, and it was laying on that lady's desk the day my mom came to the jail. And so she just handed it to my mom. And so my mom started coming and visiting visiting me. And I knew my my dad, not my biological dad, but my dad, he was going to be a little harder nut to crack because he had been through it. And but through the course of this, I realized how much he really loved me. You know, I wasn't his son, but I had his last name and he'd been my dad since I was three my whole life. But they got my mom and dad got married when I was three months old. And uh I realized that he loved me just like he loved my brothers. And so when after I was out of jail, my biological dad, he'd brought that Bible in, introduced me to celebrate recovery. Then I wanted to start a celebrate recovery. And once I realized I couldn't, didn't really feel comfortable getting up and speaking in front of people because there'd been a few times I couldn't pray out loud in front of people uh at church, and they'd asked me to get up and do announcements, and I couldn't do that. I was like, there's no way I can lead a celebrate recovery. And so I scrapped that plan. Like, that's not for me. That's not my calling. And so a year into my sobriety, Pastor Ed comes to me and says, I'm sending you and four other people to training to start a celebrate recovery up here. He goes, I want you to be the ministry leader. And on the inside, my flesh didn't want to do it. But my spirit man already said yes. And so we went to the training. We started to celebrate recovery. It's in its seventh year. Um, I don't longer lead it. One of the alumni from Crossroad leads that meeting now. And that's a really cool thing to see when your fruit starts producing fruit. And but in the meantime, during all of this, what my biological dad did for me, I'll never forget. I didn't want to come back to Richmond and work. Like I wasn't ready that first year. Um, he bought a house. He approached me, he says, I'm thinking about buying this house in Liberty. And uh, how much would you charge me to do the work on it? And so he bought the house for$7,000. So you can imagine the shape this thing was in, right? There, I spent the first week or two cleaning all the overgrowth off the outside of it. That's how bad a shape it was in. And I'd been a carpenter most of my life. Uh, but the problem I was having it straight out of jail was I I had good, complete thoughts, but I couldn't talk in complete senses. I couldn't remember how to do some basic stuff. My brain was pretty scattered from the drug use. And so when he bought this, I agreed to work for him for$10 an hour. And at first he was just going to make it into an office. And this the further we went, the nicer it became. Um, I spent about a year and a half working on this house. Uh, we subbed a few things out. But what it did was I had no stamina. Like most days in the beginning, I could work about three hours and I had to go take a nap. And then the other problem I was having was I couldn't remember how to do things that I had done a million times. And I got a pretty cool testimony about this. We were getting towards the end of the project, and we had stayed, I had the stair rail off. It had a kind of a nice old stair rail rail. It was a really old house. And we had made one of the downstairs rooms bigger so it could be a bedroom. And then we on the opposite side, we tore a whole wall out and made it like an open concept. And the plan was to put this handrail and the spindles on the other side. And so I had been putting it off and putting it off because I couldn't just, I have to be able to picture it in my mind to be able to build it. And so I was struggling that day. And I had just learned there was some country praise and worship music, and I had discovered Alan Jackson's precious memories. And and uh I remember I was listening to that that day, and I could not figure out how to put this handrail back up. And because I was gonna have to cut some stuff, and I remember crying about it, crying and screaming out to God, saying, Is my brain ever going to get better? And the song in the garden came on. And I and then the tears went to happy tears because I felt like I literally felt like Jesus was waltzing me around this empty house. Because most of the work I did there was by myself, and I listened to Billy Graham's sermons or I listened to gospel music. And so uh most of the day went by, and I remember standing back at the end of the day looking at that that rail. I don't remember cutting one spindle, I don't remember cutting the ballast, I don't remember doing any of it, but it was done. And and obviously it was me that did it. And at the end, I was just praising God for it. You know, I was praising him because I was like, man, what we did, we did this. And you know, I included him as we. And uh he goes, yeah. He goes, it's about time you asked me for help. You know, I was a carpenter, don't you? And I didn't hear that, but I felt that. And it was in my sense of humor. And I was like, man, he is real. You know, I not that I was already believing that he was real, but he became real in that moment. And so at the end of this, working on this, um, I had to a few times push back with my biological dad because he didn't understand that what I was just, I couldn't do, I could only do so much each day. And but by the end, I was working a full-time job and working on that house in the evenings. And he, that$7,000 house, by the time it was done, sold for$100,000, I think$34,000. And uh, so it turned out pretty nice. But the blessing was the first year, I didn't have to go anywhere to work. And I could work at my own pace. And I believe I had got a lot of healing and I and I learned a lot of valuable lessons that even if I am around the world, then I can tune it out with Jesus. And that really helped me. Uh the first job I had in Richmond was with Andy Morgan. And um, and uh a cool story with that was I didn't want to come to work. So I I I one, I was super honest when they interviewed me over the phone. But matter of fact, my dad was pushing me to get a job and he sent me the lead, and I and I knew he was getting ready to ask me if I'd followed up on it. And I didn't want to lie to him, and I didn't want to tell him no. And so I called them and they called me back. I was like, dang it. And so they I told them about my felonies, I told him about my drug use, I was just really honest. And at the time, Um, because I'd been out of the loop. I thought I asked for way too much money. And so the first day on my job, they hired me. And so I had to honor that. So my first day on the job, they send me to Andy's house because he's doing me doing his master bathroom. And I'm like, does he know about my felonies? Does he know that I was a drug addict? He's got me by myself in his house in his master bathroom. And so I worked there for the first three days. I hung some drywall, I did some finishing. And at the end of that third day, I was leaving. And uh you had to drive past his house to get out from behind the shop. And he steps out from behind his dumpster and stops me. I was like, this is the day he's firing me. Someone's told him about my past. And he offered me a lead position that day in a truck. And I remember thinking, does he know who I am? And then, like the next week, they're giving me a credit card. I was like, does he know who I am? And so the Lord was showing me that. And I had the same thing with my biological dad. He gave me the key to, once I got my license, he gave me a truck, his truck to drive and an unlimited credit card. It was just amazing that people were trusting me. Um, something I forgot to share was the very first uh, well, it was around this time. So the very first recovery meeting I went to was in Liberty. It was called Brianna's Hope. And at that very first meeting, they um were going around talking about how you shouldn't date for at least a year, your first year of recovery. And I think, man, they're trying to control me. I'm not coming back here. And then uh he looks right at me and says, You should wait two years. So then I was really mad. And they're talking about how you shouldn't drink, even if it wasn't your problem. I was mad about that. So I wasn't going to go back to that meeting, but I went back and it turns out to be the best two pieces of advice that I got early on in my recovery. And uh so I met Joni for the first time at that Brianna's Hope meeting, not that night, but in that first year. Uh, she was on the tail end of her time of being a resident at Crossroad. And when I say we cross paths, we crossed paths, we didn't really talk. Um, I had something inside me greater than my flesh because I wasn't talking to any of those girls that come to those meetings because I didn't want to disrespect them or the people who were the directors. And so I made it the a whole year without dating anybody. And I took the advice and made it all the way to year number two. Year number two happened in February, and from February to March, every girl that came into the celebrate recovery or church that I didn't know, I was asking the Lord, is this the one? And I went to a a spirit, a man's spiritual retreat in March of 2020. And um at the end of it, well, I I showed up that at the beginning of it thinking I had arrived. I was a little puffed up and got humbled real quick. And by the end of it, I was repenting and telling the Lord I was sorry for asking him if all these girls were who he had lined up for me. And I remember telling him that he was more than enough. I had dated enough women in my whole life, I could be single the rest of my life. And so I left there that retreat. That Monday, I was headed to work to Winchester as past in the diner in in uh Fountain City. And I knew that Joni worked there because I'd crossed paths with her a few other times. Um, and I knew that she sang uh praise and worship. And the Lord, or I it was my I thought it was my thought, was like, I wonder what Joni's doing. And the Lord said, Hey, reach out to her, ask her. I didn't have her phone number, and I was like, Oh, I'll just do it later. I'll get the number from somebody. And he said, No, you messenger on messenger. I was like, No, I'm not I'm having this argument going through Fountain City. And so finally I pulled over and I sent her a message and um forgot all about the message, went on to work. I was in Winchester, didn't have a signal, but at lunchtime my phone dinged. And I looked down and it was her replying. And then I felt, oh crap. And the reason it was oh crap was because I remembered what I texted her. Now I didn't ask her how she was doing. I said, You want this is crazy. This is my pickup line. I said, if I asked you out, what would you say? And her answer back to me was, yes, I thought you would never ask. So my head went boom. I was like, man, she's been digging me all this time. And uh, so we we it was right at the beginning of COVID, that exact day they shut everything down. So our dates were basically Bible studies. Um, and we dated for three months and we got married, and we've been doing ministry together ever since. But about it uh a year or so after we got married, she was sharing a testimony that on Valentine's Day of 2020, she was alone with the Lord, didn't have a Valentine's date, was telling the Lord that he was more than enough. And as she's praying these things, I pop into her head and she thinks it's just a distractive thought. And so she pushes it out, and I pop in there again, right? And uh she says, Lord, if this is from you, I think he's kind of cute. But if you want me to go out with him, you're gonna have to have him ask. So it wasn't that she was digging me, it was the Lord had done told her I was gonna ask her out. So that's why she said, I thought you'd never ask. Yes. And so we've been married now for uh six years, and it's the most uh healthy relationship I've ever been in in my life. And I think if we would have tried to date prior to that two years because of our individual trauma that we both had, it it would have not worked out. And and I not that we haven't had some some uh struggles because of our past trauma, but it's just been beautiful to do uh ministry with her. Um, she's she uh encourages me to grow. Like when we first got together, she had so much more Bible knowledge than I did. And that really, I'm I'm a competitive person, so it really forced me because I was happy where I was at. I was plateaued. I was going to be a recovery, celebrate recovery ministry leader, and go to church for the rest of my life. And and the Lord had bigger plans, and he knew that when he put Joni in my life. And now you're in theology. I'm going to school. Yes.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:11

So talk a little bit about crossroads, talk about what what you guys do there, um, talk about maybe the need, the financial need, and and how um you're supported by the community and all those things.

Jail Encounters That Sparked Deliverance

SPEAKER_01 1:34:24

So when when I was in jail and I was uh reading all the or just watch watching all the stuff with Billy Graham, I thought it was amazing the unity. So the Lord imprinted in my heart this this hunger for unity. But when I got out of jail, I quickly discovered that most churches won't do anything with another church, especially if it's in the in their building. Because uh, and it's sad, but I don't know why that happens. But what I've got to see through Crossroad is um is that unity, the body of Christ coming together for a common good. And so Crossroad was started by Paul and Karen Rose in 2010. Um, and so it's been almost, I guess it's the 16th year. And what Crossroad is, is it's for women only, and it's a four-month residential treatment facility, and it's at no cost to the ladies to come there. And so the way that we're funded is through donations by individuals, by churches, by businesses. Uh, all the volunteers or all the teachers are volunteers. Uh, we get volunteers that come help with capital improvement projects. Um, I've had contractors and local businessmen come alongside us to help us uh with some of those tasks as well. And it's amazing because we our entire budget is made up that way. And we there's two phases out there. The first phase is the four months. The girls don't work during that time, and they take classes and they really focus on their relationship with Jesus. Now, they don't have to be saved to come to Crossroad. They don't have to get saved while we're here. They just have to be open to the idea that we're gonna share um recovery through the lenses of Jesus Christ. And so we just try to teach them the practical skills that are needed to be an adult so that you're not breaking, you know, if you break the little rules, you're gonna break the big rules. Um, and then teach them responsibility. They have chores chores that they do, and they have rules they have to follow. And we uh it's just been it's just an awesome to see the Lord move in so many ways. Like I've got to meet so many people that I wouldn't have met normally, uh, been in churches I wouldn't have gone to normally because it's outside of, it's not it's not my flavor, so to speak. And it's just beautiful. We uh, for example, last November, at the end of November, we put we sent out a letter to all our donors for a year-end giving project. And we decided we were gonna raise money for to remodel the kitchen and the dining room. Now, we have never asked for this much money in a year-end giving letter, but we asked for$150,000, right? And so that was the end of November, and as of today, we've raised up$133,000 of that. It blows my mind away. It's not me, it's not Joni, it's not Crossroad, it's God. And that's the beautiful part. And so I knew we were going to minister to these ladies, and I was excited about that because what was freely given to me, I wanted to freely give away to them. And Joni felt the same way. But what was beautiful is we're not just impacting the girls that come through Crossroad. It's the Great Commission. And so we are sharing the gospel with them. We're discipling them. The light of Jesus starts shining in them, and then their family members usually, maybe it's their siblings, maybe it's their children, maybe it's their parents, maybe it's an aunt and uncle and their friends, they come out for visits, they start noticing difference, and they want what they've got. And so they start paying a little more attention to that. And then when they go out into the community and they start working the same thing, they're full of Jesus. It's contagious. And so instead of being a boat going through the water at a high speed and creating a wake that erodes the edges, it's a Jesus boat making a Jesus wake, splashing Jesus on everybody that go by.

SPEAKER_06 1:38:08

It's pretty powerful. And it and it's the same thing. Every week I feel like I say it, you know. The Ed Milak quote, you're most qualified in life to help the person you used to be. And you think about back to your high school days when you were chasing women, another notch on the belt, then you're, you know, you get addicted to drugs, all the things, the whole testimony you just shared with us. And now look at what you're doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:38:30

Yeah, it's amazing. It blows my mind. You know, it's it's by his grace. That's the beautiful part. Uh, sometimes we've lost a few people, a few ladies who have uh uh went to be with the Lord after they left Crossroad, and that's tough because the enemy wants to attack you and tell you you're doing all this for nothing. And I I learned early in my recovery and doing recovery ministry, if I didn't take the credit for them doing good, I didn't have to take the credit for if they messed up. And and I I mean there's times where you still have to have some ownership, but I the enemy had no power over me, is what I'm saying. And that that was that's been the beauty like he's always got our back. Yeah, nothing's too small. He wants to be part of every part of our life.

SPEAKER_06 1:39:15

It's amazing what you got.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:18

I just keep going back to you know, Jesus is close to the broken, you know. And then now with you guys doing the crossroads, how many more people have when you're discipling these ladies, like you said, their family and everything, but then when they get out of it, you know, didn't you say that somebody took over um the celebrate recovery ministry that you're talking about at church? And it was one of the people that were in the program. Yes, yes. Like how many more stories are there like that as well for people, you know?

SPEAKER_01 1:39:44

Well, I wish I had a picture that I could show you. So last this just happened last Friday night. We're at Celebrate Recovery. It's during praise and worship. And I already, during praise and worship, the first song was Ain't No Grave, the fast fun version by Molly Skaggs. And that usually gets people up and gets them moving, right? Nobody. It's like crickets. And I'm thinking, I'm gonna get the microphone and I'm gonna, I'm gonna, I'm gonna motivate them. And the Lord says, Oh, no, you're not. You're gonna go up here because I run the AV there. And he goes, No, you're gonna abandon ship right here, and you're gonna go up to the altar and pray for me to draw them. And so I went up there by myself, and that's what I started praying was Lord, draw everyone that you want up here to the altar tonight. I just was praying hard. Another guy came up and was praying with me, heard what I was praying, and just started praying the same thing. And when I got up, the altar was full. So I went back and to my post behind the soundboard and was um, I took a picture. And so my wife uh was playing piano and singing. One of the girls in the program's backup singing for her. Another girl in the program that plays guitar is up there with her. The girl that's singing, her husband, who just come back to the Lord, who used to be a be in in ministry, is up there playing guitar. And then at the altar is all of our girls praying for one girl. And there's, and then later in the night, not only is Christine leading the meeting, another girl alumni teaches the lesson, and then two other girls volunteer for two other parts of celebrate recovery. So I felt like the Lord was showing me this is your fruit, and this is your fruit producing fruit. And it really touched me because sometimes you get you're so tunnel for focused with tunnel vision that you don't see what's happening outside the four walls of crossroad, but but these girls are making an impact. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:35

You know, you're equipping them with that spiritual battle. You know, you talk about you lose some, and but you're equipping them when they're in there with what we all face in the spiritual battles.

SPEAKER_01 1:41:44

So I don't know. Did John did Joni share how we ended up at Crossroad? So we I I can't believe I forgot this. This is pretty cool too. We we were just married less than a year. We saw, I saw that Tom and Wendy were leaving the previous directors, and they had put an advertisement out that they were looking for new directors. And in my mind, I didn't know how that worked. I just figured it was Wendy. So I felt the Lord functioning me to push Joni to apply. And so she's resistant. She's saying, We're not qualified, we haven't been married long enough, um, we don't have enough degrees, we've not been sober long enough, just a lot of excuses. I went through the program, they're never gonna hire us. And so after enough peer pressure, she filled out an application and she goes, but before I send this in, let's pray. So what we prayed was, Lord, um, and and I guess the conversation that we had, she convinced me that all those reasons why we shouldn't apply. And so we prayed, anyways. And when we prayed, what we prayed, the prayer was this, Lord, um, we're not going to apply for this position. But if it's a door that you are opening, you're gonna have to bust it wide open. And a couple weeks go by, I had forgot about it altogether. We were at Celebrate Recovery and Liberty, and Tom and Wendy showed up that night with all the girls, which was rare because they usually didn't, they didn't come on a regular basis to our meeting. And I'd seen that Joni was in the kitchen talking to Wendy a lot. I just thought they were catching up on old times, you know. And it was time for us to start the meeting, and I'm a stickler. It's seven o'clock, so it's time to start. And so I go get Joni, and as we're walking, I'm walking her up to the piano, and she goes, You're never gonna believe what she just asked me. And and then she had to play. She couldn't tell me what it was, but in my spirit, I knew what it was. And so what had happened was the board had interviewed several people, and they just didn't really feel like they had found the right candidate yet, the one that the Lord wanted them. And so they decided to go away and pray. And when they went away and prayed and started getting back together, some of them um either had my name, her name, or our name together. And so they were reaching out to us to see if we'd be interested in interviewing. And so it was really cool. So we went to that interview and and the door busted, or the God busted that door wide open. And um, the reason why that's important is that first year out there was rough, but I could always lean on Lord, you called us out here because we didn't apply. And but in that interview process, I was sharing all the reasons why we weren't qualified. And the Tom, the former director, says, Jesus doesn't call the qualified, he qualifies the called. And I thought that was powerful. And so I just tell Jesus every morning, I don't know what I'm doing, but I know you do. So what do you want me to do? That's awesome.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:33

That is awesome. Sounds like me in my new position. Don't know what you're doing. All right, Donald, last question, man. If you could sit on a park bench and have a conversation with someone living or deceased, who would it be and why?

SPEAKER_01 1:44:52

Who would it be and why? Who would I sit with? I I I actually put some thought into this, and uh, and I really didn't want to use this example because it just seems too easy, but uh David or King David from the Bible. And the reason why I would want to have a conversation with him is one, some of my life verses come out of Psalms 40. I'll share those in a minute. But the other thing is David had some giants in his life and he took them out in the name of Jesus. And he also was able to restrain himself from abusing the abusing that with King Saul. I recently read a book called The Tale of Three Kings, and it's about King Saul, King David and Absalom. It's a really good book because I never thought about how difficult it was for David as a young anointed man who just he's killed a bear, he's killed a lion, he slew Goliath, he's the anointed one, but to wait and not lay hands on Saul and have that reservation. And then once he became king, he had a son who was going to take him out, and the king could have taken his son out because he had the authority, right? But he didn't. He waited for God's will, and God handled that for him. And so I would I think I would just have a lot of conversations with him about that. Um, I I connect with him in Psalm 40, and I'll paraphrase verse 12 talks about my troubles surround me, they're more than the hairs on my head, no pun intended death. And my heart fails within me. And and so when I read that, I thought that's exactly how I felt that day with the handcuffs on when the when the community was watching me get arrested. You know, I that's exactly how I felt. And then when I discovered uh Psalms 40, verse 2 and 3, which says he lifted me out of a slimy pit, I was covered in muck and mire, he placed my feet upon a rock and he gave me a firm place to stand. And if he'd have just done that, that'd have been enough. But then he put a new song in my mouth, a hymn of praise to God. And so I've just really hung on to those. And I think with King David, I just like to have some long conversations about all of his challenges from the time of being a shepherd boy all the way until the day that he anointed his son Solomon.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:08

That's good. How can people support or get involved with crossroads?

Church Reentry And Learning To Serve

SPEAKER_01 1:47:14

So there is, there are multiple ways. We have a website. I think you guys have that posted up there. I think he's got a link posted if you'd like to give. But it's more, it's more than just the financial side of it with that crossroads. So prayer, that, the intercession, that's what really fuels the ministry out there. We're dealing with deliverance on a daily basis. We're dealing with a lot of trauma. Um, uh, and they've got to learn how to do boundaries. Some of them have to learn how to pay bills, have to learn how to be an adult, how to follow rules. And so that prayer really helps us because it calms down all the chaos because there's a lot of spiritual warfare. Uh, we we usually put out a monthly needs list. Some people like to uh to gather items. So there's always like toilet toiletries that we need. Imagine how much toilet paper 20 women use every month. And so things like toilet paper, paper towels, cleaning supplies. And if you go to our Facebook um pages, there's two of them. There's a group and a page. Um, usually that monthly needs list is on there. And so a lot of time a lot of women's groups or churches will collect for a month on those things and they'll they'll we'll either do a visit or have them come out. Uh, volunteers. Uh right now, I think all our slots to teach um are full, but we always like to have people on a waiting list that's interested in teaching a class out there. And uh loving on the girls, even if it's on a Saturday and someone wanted to bring out pizza, or if you're you're having uh some kind of gathering in town, like the Gratitude Walk, we would love to bring them there. Uh the other thing is volunteers to help me come alongside me as the director of operations, whether it be yard work or construction projects. Uh, we have this great big huge yard sale that we we take donations for uh all year long. And we take the end of the year estate sale or end of your yard sale, whatever it is, if it's a garage you're cleaning out. And the Lord, I I I look at that as like the widow with the empty jars that they collected, and the Lord filled them up with the oil. That's what this yard, these yard sale items are. We last year we made$20,000 at a yard sale to go towards the ministry, and it blows my mind. And so the Lord blesses us with other people's junk, turns it into treasures, and then he sends the people to buy it. And it's amazing. And we don't put a price tag on any of that. And so those are some of the ways that you can give. You can um you can do it online, you can write a check and send it to the address. Um, our website has all that information on it.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:47

And like I said, we'll we'll be sure to link that to the episode and on the website and all those things. Got anything to add?

SPEAKER_03 1:49:55

No, just a powerful testimony. Thank you. It is beautiful. How we renews. You know, it's just amazing. I'm sure a lot of people get a lot out of it. And hopefully a lot of hope.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:07

Yeah, for sure. I I think that's uh that's a good word to end with is hope. And and you know that I I that comes up almost every episode, I think, where you know, when there's no hope, right, things are yeah things are lost. But when you get that small glimmer of hope, that's when your life starts to change.

SPEAKER_01 1:50:25

It's interesting. We have a an annual event called Celebrate Hope. And the way that that original how we came up with that name was Celebrate Recovery and Brianna's Hope. Uh the the Bible leaders had challenged us to do an event or something for the community. And we did this thing called Celebrate Hope. And then looking back, the name wasn't by accident, right? It was celebrating Jesus. And so we do that usually in the fall of the year. It's a pretty uh pretty cool thing because it brings the recovery community and the regular community together to do something in the name of Jesus.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:57

That's amazing. Sean, you got anything to add back there? Nope, just thank you. Um powerful story, powerful testimony. Um thanks for being honest.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:09

You're welcome.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:11

Yeah, thank you for uh thank you for coming up here and Joni. I mean, uh your you guys story and connection was from the gratitude walk. Uh our very first gratitude walk. I had um family come up to me and say, Do you know Donald and Joni Reed? And I said, I do not. So I'm gonna make the connection. And um so so grateful for that and and grateful for for you and for Joni for what you're doing. I mean, the power of redemption. Uh, you know, just like with Joni's story and your story, I mean, you can just see the devil's just got, you know, just got total control over you until he doesn't. You know, and uh so I I appreciate your vulnerability. I appreciate what you guys are doing at Crossroads. Uh, you know, Sean and I were out there a couple weeks ago and you gave us the tour, and uh you can just you can feel the love. Okay. And uh it's it's an amazing thing. So I would encourage anybody who's listening that you know, whether it's just in prayer or in volunteering or you want to give financially to support what you guys are doing because it's powerful.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:23

Yeah, and I I'd like this extend to invite to groups or churches or individuals. If you'd like to come out and see Crossroad, um, don't just show up, but get a hold of Joni or I through through our social media, and we would gladly give, we like to get boots on the ground out there so you can see what's going on.

SPEAKER_06 1:52:40

It's pretty awesome. All right, everybody. Continue to like and share and subscribe and do all those things and go out and be tempered.

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