BeTempered Episode 107 - Surviving an F-100 Fighter Jet Crash with David Wheeler

A fighter jet drops out of the clouds at 300 miles an hour, the controls stop responding, and the pilot has seconds left to decide what to do. David Wheeler lived through that moment and what happened next still challenges everything he thought he knew about life, purpose, and survival.

In this episode of BeTempered with Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr, David takes us from his 1950s Cincinnati childhood and early fascination with aviation to flying the Air National Guard F-100 Super Sabre while balancing life as an architect and family man. He breaks down the intense reality of pilot training, low-level flight routes, military discipline, and the medical obstacles he had to overcome just to earn the chance to fly.

Then everything changed.

David walks us through the terrifying seconds of his fighter jet crash and the unexplainable peace he experienced as the aircraft went down. He describes hearing what sounded like singing, feeling overwhelming love, and waking up with questions that would shape the rest of his life.

We also explore what it means to live a “second life,” how trauma can transform purpose, and why David eventually returned to the crash site decades later searching for answers. The conversation expands into prison ministry, servant leadership, radical forgiveness, hospice experiences, faith, and the moments that quietly redefine what matters most.

Whether you love aviation stories, military history, leadership lessons, near-death experiences, or conversations about faith and meaning, David’s story stays with you.

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Transcript

Sponsor And Patreon Community Invite

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I want to share something that's become a big part of the Be Tempered mission. Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and men putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple. Real stories, raw truth, resilient faith, so that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.

Be Tempered Intro And Guest Preview

SPEAKER_06 2:09

Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.

SPEAKER_03 2:14

Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips, and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.

SPEAKER_06 2:22

We're your host, Dan Schmidt, and Ben Sparr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.

SPEAKER_03 2:28

This is Be Tempered.

SPEAKER_06 2:30

What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Bee Tempered Podcast, episode number 107, Dan. 107. Good job, Ben. Hey, today on the podcast, we sit down with Dave Wheeler, a remarkable man whose life has been marked by leadership, service, faith, and moments that can only be described as miraculous. Dave was a successful architect in Cincinnati, Ohio, who built and operated his own architectural firm, but his story goes far beyond business and success. Throughout his life, his faith has been tested, strengthened, and refined through extraordinary circumstances, including surviving a devastating fighter jet crash that should have taken his life. What he remembers from that crash and the encounters he experienced afterwards are truly remarkable. We also talk about his heart for serving others through prison ministry, the impact he's had on countless lives, including helping former bee-tempered guest Donald Reed, and what it means to live a life devoted to faith, family, humility, and purpose. This conversation is about survival, surrender, leadership, servant-hearted leaving living, and moments in life where you realize God was with you the entire time.

Meeting Dave Wheeler

SPEAKER_06 3:52

Dave Wheeler, welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast.

SPEAKER_00 3:56

Thank you. I don't know who wrote that uh introduction, but uh it was pretty pretty spectacular.

SPEAKER_06 4:02

Well, thank you. I'm not sure who you're describing. I have tools in my toolbox that uh I'm able to take from when we met there, I don't know, was it a couple weeks ago, a month ago? I don't remember when. Yeah. Uh and you came into the office and and shared your your story with me. And it was uh it was a remarkable time for me to learn learn about a man I'd never met, a story I didn't know. Um but man, I just I feel a connection with you. I I um you know you were in the construction industry being an architect your whole life, and we'll get into that. But then um, you know, just just the remarkable things you've done in your life and the the uh the challenges you've been through. And I mean, there's been many miracles in your life, and uh, and I'm excited for you to share those those with our listeners. So thank you for coming on.

SPEAKER_00 4:51

Yeah, as in many lives. I mean, there are a lot of a lot of miracles and uh special events. So no, I'm happy to be here and uh hope it's interesting to your listeners to hear some of this.

SPEAKER_06 5:03

For sure. For sure. Well, how we like to start every podcast is from the beginning. So if you would talk about what life was like for you growing up as a kid.

1950s Family Life And Faith

SPEAKER_06 5:11

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:11

Well, uh I grew up I was born in 45. So I grew up kind of in the 50s and the 60s. And uh honestly, it was a different world as I look back. I had a s I have a sister that's four years younger. And uh her experience even in high school and shortly after that were totally different than mine. I mean, we I graduated in 63. Um and my life was pretty much like you'd see on a TV program from the 50s. I mean, uh I had a good family, uh, older brother, younger sister. Dad was uh uh elementary school teacher. Uh we had uh come from Indianapolis. Uh dad was in the war, and uh we moved I was three years old when we we moved to Cincinnati. He took a job with the Cincinnati School District and taught uh fifth grade uh math and science. Two subjects that my dad really had no interest in at all. My dad was uh he he was uh a kind of a writer, uh uh he uh and almost kind of an intellectual in a way, was uh really interested in in those kinds of things. He would have been a good college professor, really. He was and uh my mother was a nurse, although she didn't really practice uh uh she had quit practicing when they got married and uh started having a family, and and and then she went back when I was in junior high, high school. So uh, but we lived in uh College Hill in Cincinnati, uh modest little house, and uh lived on a dead end street, which was pretty special. And it had about, I'm gonna guess, 30 houses on this street. And it was that had a cul-de-sac, and I think there were 50 kids that lived uh in that street. And uh we had a neighborhood organization that put up a Christmas tree every year, and the whole uh community there would come out and sing Christmas carols, and Santa Claus would come. It was it was really a great time, and kids ran around without shoes and dogs ran kind of wild. And uh so I had my my and my parents were both church people. Uh I mean uh my dad taught Sunday school at our church here at College Hill. And uh I can't remember a time when I didn't believe in God. I don't remember a time when I didn't pray every time we sat down and went to church every Sunday. And uh it was a great life. I mean, I I look back you know and and think about how everything kind of got screwed up somehow, and and kids don't have that. But you I mean, my parents would trust me to go anywhere just about. I I had a bicycle at times and uh we just could go anywhere. I had a dog that would run with me. I had this special dog that uh would chase long, you know, behind my bike. And it was a great growing up. And uh I went uh I mean in in uh elementary school, they had just changed over to junior high. So where I would have gone through I guess eight years of elementary school, they changed it to six years plus junior high and then high school. And uh I was selected, Lynn, my wife, uh I met uh I can remember the day that she walked into the Mrs. Thompson's fifth grade homeroom class. She was uh from she and her family had moved from uh Massachusetts from Boston. And uh I remember the day she walked into the classroom. Now it wasn't you know lightning flashing or anything, but I don't I didn't think, you know, this is a girl I'm gonna marry. Uh but we were neighbors, not next door neighbors, but within the same community. And we went through elementary school from there and junior high and high school, no newer the whole time. Um went to uh Schwab Junior High. Another thing that happened, I guess, during this time was that I always had a lot of friends. We had, I mean, there were friends from the neighborhood, but friends in school. And uh I had a chance uh in the third grade to meet this guy named Bob Clippard, who was a great friend, and he uh he changed my life just knowing him and his family, and I worked for his father uh and it's a long story, and I don't have much fun on that, but uh uh knowing Bob Clippard, I mean I knew my wife from the fifth grade. Uh we all went to junior high to high together. Uh in that at that time, Ohio had this law that you could uh get a motorcycle license for a small motorcycle at 14.

SPEAKER_06 10:26

And uh Imagine that now.

SPEAKER_00 10:29

Oh geez, I re I re I'll tell you, there was a we uh we always went to church, came home and had Sunday dinner. We always had the same thing roast beef and uh or uh pot roast or at noodles or something. We always had kind of the same there, and and I can remember when I was 13 years old, we were all sitting around a table, and uh my dad, who I said was very laid back

Motorcycles And First Flights

SPEAKER_00 10:52

but very sort of intellectual, announced uh that that he's gonna buy a motorcycle. He he would he was a school teacher and he was off for the summer, so he he would uh uh take a summer job. He had a job with Procter Gamble out at uh Ross, Ohio to cut grass. And he thought instead of taking the family car out there all summer, he'd ride a motorcycle out there. So he had one of his students from when he was teaching had had a motorcycle of $125. And uh he I but when he announced that at the table, the all the forks you know hit the table. And uh but that changed my life. I mean, there were there were certain things. Meeting Bob Clipper, of course, meeting Lynn, uh like dad buying that motorcycle.

SPEAKER_06 11:39

Why why did Bob what what? Well, I'll get into that.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Bob Bob got me into flying. He he he his family uh and influenced me in in a lot of different ways. Uh but he he was I'll I'll kind of get to that in a minute. But we Bob and I got motorcycles, and we were like the only two at Schwab Junior High School that had these motorcycles. We were we would drive ride up this long drive going up the schools, the girls were screaming and everything. We were we were tattoos. It really did you get tattooed on your no, I didn't, nothing like that. But uh uh that really changed my life because uh got Bob and I became friends, and and then like I was saying, he uh when I I found out that his father uh had not only an airplane, he had two airplanes, and they were and they had their own airfield on Colrain Avenue, uh right near where 275 crosses Coleraine now. They had a little little grass strip there, and they had these play. And uh I was like every kid, you know, you build model airplanes and things. I'd never flown, and uh now I'm 14 years old. Uh and I asked Bob to if I could go out and see his airplanes, you know. And then then I wanted uh, you know, Bob, could you get your dad to fly me in one? And and and I remember the day that he did that, his dad went out the field and uh took off. It was like magic. I mean, it was just we went right over Col Rain Avenue and you could see all the cars going back and forth. It really and I thought, you know, from that day on, man, you know, I'll probably never be able to do it. But I'd love to fly an airplane and and uh so that was a big influence to me. But um going back to my family, my my my mom and dad were just good parents. Uh I don't ever remember my dad throwing a baseball with me or football. He wasn't sports-oriented at all, and I played a little uh football in junior high and high school. I don't think he ever went to a game. He just wasn't that but he would help me for hours at home with homework if I needed it. He he was just a good father, not not the kind of father that a lot of people think of as sports oriented and that kind of thing, but he was good. My mother was everybody loved my mother. She was just great, beautiful woman, really, too, too. And so let's see, we uh in high school got uh Bob's dad took me for that ride, and I thought I gotta somehow work flying into my career. But I was having a lot of pressure from my and this is what was different, I think, in those days. I had a lot of pressure from my everybody did from their parents, you gotta go to college, you know, you gotta get a college education in those days. And uh so everybody wanted to be in college prep classes. I was in college prep classes, and uh um and it was really more my grandfather, grandmother and grandfather really curry encouraged me to go to college. So I was planned planning to go to college, but I didn't really know. And I in the high school, I uh my brother, older brother, went into electrical engineering at UC. I thought, well, I'll probably do what what do you think? Aeronautical engineering. That would be good. And so I had uh and signed up for aeronautical engineering at UC. And then the last year at U at uh Woodward High School uh I got into an architectural drawing class and I really like that. And I thought I'll try to switch into architecture. Well uh it took me a year to do that at UC. So I was in college for seven years. Uh the UC architectural program was six years with co-ops, and I took a year of engineering. But uh but during high school, even though uh my I would uh I was an average student, uh above average, I I'd get B's. Uh I was class president for three years. Well, at uh Woodward there were uh 3,200 kids in this in the school, which included junior high, but there were 600 kids in our graduating class.

SPEAKER_01 15:58

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 15:58

And uh so I was class president, popular, uh never outstanding in in academics or sports, uh but uh a lot of good friends, a lot of good memories, and that kind of thing. Uh went on to UC and

College Pressure And Finding Architecture

SPEAKER_00 16:18

uh during uh during this whole time, during junior high school in high school, Bob Clippard again, his father owned a company, uh Clippard Instrument out on Colerine Avenue, and he was smart enough to know that if he if if he hired all of Bob's friends, Bob would probably come and work at the plant on Saturday. So the father hired me and a couple other guys, and we would, you know, for the time I was about 13, 14 years old, we'd go out and work at the plant for eight for eight hours on on Saturday, and uh we get $10 for that. And that was and I had uh I mean I'll be honest, that changed my life too. I never saw money like that. Uh and but Bob would bring it Monday morning to school and say I'd always pay us in cash, and uh we would just do maintenance type stuff. We weren't, but uh we got we were around a lot of machinery and things and slowly got to be useful in some of that. And this went on for years with me. I was I worked in junior high school and I worked all the way through even after we were married. I still would go out to the Clippards and work sometime to make some extra money and during summers and and things. But we'd be working out there on a Saturday sometime, and Bob's older brother would fly over in an F-84 fighter, you know, and we'd hear it in the plant. We'd run out in the parking lot and he'd do a couple low passes over.

SPEAKER_06 17:49

So that continued to strengthen the desire to run flying.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

He was and uh Bob's brother Bucky was a lot of fun to be around, and he would and he he said, Oh, you get a guard, you know, when you get out. I I was thinking, yeah, that maybe I'll do that. But I'm gonna I I was in architecture, committed to that. And uh after the first year of school, I I went up and Vietnam was revving up now. I mean, re Vietnam was kind of going on, and I went up to Springfield where Bucky flew in the Air National Guard, really, and and took tests and and uh to get into their pilot program, and they said, Yeah, we'll put you right in. And uh so but they said you got to have one more year of school. They just changed where you had to have two years of college to get into the pilot program. Didn't have to have a degree, but you had to have two years. So I said, I'll see you in a year, I'll be back. And then during that time, uh my parents, uh my dad was not gung-ho on this, and uh but especially my grandfather just begged me not to go, not to quit school. He said, You go in the Air Force, do everything you want, but they didn't want me to quit college. So I I promised him I'd finish college. Well, that was six years. And uh I figured by that time maybe the guard, but I went back as soon as I when I was graduating uh from college in 1970, uh, I went back up to Springfield and they said uh I would they would take me right away. Uh I had to go, but I had to go through BASIC. And uh so I went off to Basic right after I graduated as as the oldest guy in ever went through Basic. I think I was married 25 years old, and uh most of the guys were 18 years old running wild. And uh And you married, and I'm married. You married your father, and I married my sweetheart. Well uh that that uh it's an interesting story, too. But uh and then Bob Clippard's involved in that. With the when we were in junior high school, uh Bob uh had had a little train that ran around his house. His dad had made a a train that you could ride on, like in a circus or something. He had he had he all his his father always wanted to be the chairman of a railroad. And he so he built this train around these tracks actually had it all made kind of neat. And uh uh anyway, Bob was the youngest one, and by the time Bob got through the mill at home, the train was kind of worn out and the tra grass was growing up and the tracks his dad wanted up. So his dad paid Bob and I to tear the railroad up. And uh we got 50 cents a rail, and at the end of the Saturday, we had about, I don't know, 20 bucks or something. This is you know really great. Yeah, and I'm thinking, what can I do with all this money? And Bob says, we gotta take a couple of girls out. We got to get,

Guard Pilot Path And Medical Fight

SPEAKER_00 20:55

I mean, we're seventh graders or eighth graders, and uh so uh he says, let's get some girls. We'll go out and we'll go downtown to Cincinnati. The blob, the movie The Blob had just come out, is at the Palace Theater. And he says, We'll go out to dinner. I mean, that's the way Bob Clippard was, he was a big thinker. So we we went down to Tad Steakhouse, paid $1.79 for steak dinners, and then walked down to the Palace Theater, saw the blob. But I didn't have a girlfriend at that time. Bob did so we Bob asked Lynn, and I asked another girl. So, in a way, my first date, and Lynn's first date was together, but not with each other. So we uh we were on the date, and and of course we were all kind of in ran in the same crowds, but I never dated Lynn through high school. I always had a girlfriend, kind of, but um never dated Lynn. Uh, but I always was around her. Her parents are great, parents And uh with chaperone dances and things and uh always and carpooled with Lynn a little bit during high school. And uh we always liked each other. And uh when uh when I went when when college started for me, uh all my friends left. They left and went to Ohio State around, and I and I was at home, and uh my mother said, Why don't you go to the college age group at at College Hill Church? And I said, Mom, I don't want to go to college. That's a bunch of nerds, you know.

SPEAKER_05 22:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:41

And uh, but I after a while I gave into it. I I said, okay, I'll I'll go. And walked in this room, room full of nerds, but across the room I could see Lynn, and and and and we just went together like magnets, and and and for years we we continued in that group, she and I together, and became good friends with a couple of other people in that group and everything. But we started dating basically in that college age group, and and I realized there was nobody like Lynn. Yeah, we she's just somebody you could always have fun with, always felt close to, and she was pretty. And I thought, you know, everybody at that age is sort of thinking about marriage. We we'd and uh after a couple of years of uh going together, we we got married, and uh about a month after Bob Clippard got married, by the way, and uh and four or five other people that we knew.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

But uh she was terrific. So we were married, and and I'm out of college now, got a lot of connections with jobs as an architect, but I'm talking about flying and going into the Air Force. And and you know, Lynn's great. She lets you know, kind of wanted to let me follow my dream, even though I don't think she was real excited about it. So uh Springfield.

SPEAKER_06 24:15

You go to Springfield.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

I went up to Springfield, I got uh approved to go to go to pilot training, go to basic first. Well, when I I got back from basic, I expected to show up at Springfield. I mean, this is what they told me would happen. I'll get the day when you get back, you have to check in. But when you check in, we're gonna commission you as a second lieutenant, and we're gonna send you off to pilot training. And when I got back, uh they said my physical had bounced. And I I had broken my back on a construction job when uh right after Lynn and I were married. I'd fallen through a second floor and gone into a basement, broke my back. And it was a compression fracture, didn't mount to much. I was in a brace for a month. And and but the Air Force found that. They they really uh you know, after and and that started in a year of begging the Air Force to take me into pilot training. They had they had told me, you're not going. And and I didn't didn't just take that. And I had doctors writing notes and back and forth to Wright Patterson a dozen times, having x-rays and diagnosis and stuff. And Lynn, even at the end of it, she's begging me not to go on with this because I was having so much x-rays done on my back. And then I think I told you the the uh I had a call at an architect's office on a Friday afternoon, a year later, and uh I was still fighting this, thanking this. The chief air chief flight uh uh surgeon for the Air Force in San Antonio called me. He says, Wheeler, he says, I've had this physical sitting on my desk for three months. It's about an inch and a half thick. And he says, uh, you want to fly? And I said, and and I said, Yeah, uh he says, We're gonna I'm gonna take this physical home over the weekend, and I'm gonna take out every reference to that back injury, and I'm gonna sign this off Monday morning, and we're gonna put you in pilot training. But he says, you gotta never mention it again in any flight physical or anything in the future, because I uh he says, I don't think it'll be a problem unless you ever have to eject or something. And uh so he he's he signed me off on that. And uh and then Lynn and I went you know went off to pilot training for two years.

SPEAKER_06 26:38

So your your your dream of flying was starting to come to fruition.

SPEAKER_00 26:44

A lot of dreams kind of came together. You know, I I I was an architect, and we had uh just before uh well I got back from the uh from pilot training, and I was flying every weekend up at uh up at uh Springfield, and and uh another really fortunate thing that happened was this friend that I had made in uh architectural school uh approached me about starting a partnership. And uh really had not seriously considered that, but Dennis and I were special friends at that time. And uh I always thought that uh you know, God gave me two good partners, Lynn and Dennis. And uh

Weekend F-100 Flying Culture

SPEAKER_00 27:30

so Dennis and I started a partnership, so there was a lot of good things kind of coming together at that time. I uh I wouldn't say we were successful architecture, the youngest firm in town and all that. But uh in 1975 was a big year because uh we started this partnership about two months later is when this accident occurred. I mean, I'd flying on the weekends. Uh later we uh bought our first house. 75 was kind of a big year. I think it it really pretty much took my parents out. I mean, I I think I was pushing them. Uh you pushed them over. Oh, you know, my dad didn't want me to start, uh didn't want me to give up a a job, a regular job, and start this partnership. He didn't want me flying. Uh they were crazy about Lynn, so that was good. Uh but uh I was 30 years old, and uh I thought, you know, things were I mean, I had a lot of things that I was having fun with and and and so forth. And then uh we got into this thing. And part it's hard to understand, I think, what how it feels to walk out on a tarmac and get into a uh, you know, walk out and get into a fighter jet like that and uh be with a bunch of guys that you're uh have a lot of camaraderie with and and that kind of thing. And and I just enjoyed that part of life. I mean, it was I'd get up I'm virtually flying every Saturday, and uh uh I'd get up 5 30, 6 o'clock, drive an hour and a half up to uh Springfield, usually fly twice in the morning, once in the morning, once in the afternoon. Sometimes we uh go out to the range at Adip area and drop bombs in strafe. And uh other times we might uh go up and air refuel.

SPEAKER_06 29:33

Sounds like a regular Saturday for you, Ben.

SPEAKER_00 29:36

I mean, I read we just fly and drop bombs, refuel in the air, usual. I remember uh with one of the I remember one one I'm gonna turn this phone off. Uh I remember one night but uh airy fueling at night. I mean, you go up and we were over Indianapolis and you could see St. Louis, you could see, I mean, and you and you're you're waiting for the tanker to get on station, and you then you're looking for a flashing light. And you got four guys, you know, with you that are you all know and they're in their planes and you're in your plane. I mean, it's really, and I'm thinking I remember thinking, you know, how lucky am I? God, you you really gave me my dream. You know, other guys are home watching TV, and uh I've got uh this exciting life going.

SPEAKER_06 30:31

So to this point in your life, like there's no doubt you can feel the love you have for your wife, you know, and how you you remember in fifth grade, you weren't even you didn't even date her, but you remember seeing her.

SPEAKER_00 30:44

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 30:46

You go off to school, you you you meet Bob, who is an amazing friend. Sounds like Bob, Bob lived in like La La Land with a train station around his house and uh and his dad flying planes and working at the business and all those things. So an amazing man who uh his dad planted the seed of flying that never left you. Go off to school, become an architect, promise your your grandfather you won't quit school. You finally get to where you're accepted to to go to flight school, you got to go through basic training at how old were you?

SPEAKER_00 31:20

25.

SPEAKER_06 31:21

25 years old, which is like an old man going through basic training. Yeah. Married, buying a house, you're flying on the weekends because was there ever a chance that you could have gone to war?

SPEAKER_00 31:35

Well uh yes, except that Vietnam had pretty much wound down during those last years of college. I mean, I remember when we were in Tucson getting ready to graduate from a from uh pilot training from the F-100 school, that I remember the uh the POWs were coming home on the uh planes and things. I mean, it was not over, but it was winding down. So uh I I would have gone if that's what was necessary, but it actually turned out to be a really great time because guys were coming back. They were worn out flying, and uh Vietnam was not a very popular war. And uh it was just like a flying club, really. In those days, it was fun.

SPEAKER_06 32:22

So you're getting paid to fly.

SPEAKER_00 32:24

I get they're paying me to fly and uh uh get to wear a uniform, you get to know all these great guys. It was a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_06 32:31

Yeah. So then talk about the day that you're flying on a routine Saturday,

The Mission Before The Crash

SPEAKER_06 32:38

right? Yes. And and kind of paint that picture of what the day was like and what happened.

SPEAKER_00 32:45

Well, routine day. Uh got up uh 5 30, 6 o'clock, got my flight suit on, left Cincinnati, drove for an hour and a half, got up there about 7 30. Real life, I got look, you you walk in, you look at the schedule. What do they have you scheduled for? And and since I was only available on the weekends and the weekend warrior, there were other guys that were there all week long that were called guard bums, and that you know they didn't have a job, so they just hung out with the guard and they got all the extra flights and things. So, but they tried to make it a uh you know possible for for the weekend guys to get at least one flight, usually two. And uh I saw that I was on the schedule uh for a low-level high-speed run uh that would normally have ended at Attibury range, but we they did they we weren't scheduled for Attibury. So we were just gonna do this low level and then uh play around and come home. And I was on with the guy named Wiley Seacrest, who had just come back from Vietnam and was new with the unit, but he was uh pretty experienced. And uh uh I hadn't flown with him before, and it was just gonna be the two of us. Usually a lot of times there'd be four planes, but this was just two two two guys. He had his plane, I had my plane, and he wasn't there yet. I did the all the paperwork, got ready, got the weather briefings and all that, and and actually briefed the flight when he got there. And and uh he was flight lead uh qualified. I was not flight lead at that point, I was second lieutenant, and but uh I was gonna lead the flight, which I was allowed to do as long as he was sort of the the one in charge. But uh on the I l we took off and and uh we have a briefing takeoff. We took off about 10 o'clock, and uh my uh my part of it was to get on the low-level route, which was flying over near Columbus, Ohio, getting on uh letting down the altitude to about two, three thousand feet, and uh picking up this low-level route, which uh was a canned route that we had to follow went around Cincinnati down to Lexington.

SPEAKER_06 35:12

When you say low level, like what's the height?

SPEAKER_00 35:15

Anything you can do. I mean, uh they you're allowed to go down to a thousand feet, which is pretty low. Uh uh and usually I'd say you're 1,500 to between 1,000 and 2,000 feet.

SPEAKER_06 35:27

So you're you're flying low-level flight.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, you're simulating that you're you're under radar, you're trying to get to a target. Uh it's usually visually done instead of with instruments, you're you're you've got to map that you're you know, you've got to when you when you're flying a plane like that, it's you don't have any help. You know, you don't have a guy in a backseat or a guy sitting next to you, and you're busy. I mean, you're working the radios, you're flying the airplane, you're you're trying to navigate, uh, find things. Uh if you when you get on the range, you got you're setting up switches and guns and things. There's a lot, I mean, it's not relaxing. It's you're really busy most of the time. And uh so I led the part around the low level, ended up about uh Lexington and and uh uh pulled off of the low-level route, and we were gonna fly up towards Cincinnati. I Dennis, my partner, had was uh at a horse show along the Ohio River that day, and I had told him if we could, which we kind of could sometimes, uh, I would fly over the horse show. And so we were gonna come up to the river and fly along the river, and and uh and I found the horse show. We flew over it a couple times, kind of a thrill. Uh weather wasn't great. We climbed up towards uh headed east to get in the restricted zone. There's a great big restricted area over Chillicothe that's about 200 miles long and about 150 miles north-south. But we couldn't get in. Uh Ohio our uh Wright Patterson owns it, and they they they were it was hot, so we couldn't get in. So we were kind of south of that area. And while he was he had briefed that he was gonna do, he was gonna teach me a technique that he had learned uh in Vietnam when he was trying to shoot down a plane. And when you're trying to shoot down a plane and trace them, you always have to pull lead on them. You have to turn sharper than the guy you're following, or your bullets are gonna go behind him all the time. You got so he had showed, he was gonna show me a special maneuver where you're coming around and then you suddenly reverse uh in a almost like an aileron roll, and and as you pass behind him, you get a just a split second to take your shot. And uh so and that's it, it made sense to me. And we we practiced it several times, two or three times. We'd climb up to about 15,000, 20,000 feet, and then uh he'd engage, so I'd fall in behind him, and and uh and I'd be he'd be turning and maneuvering, and I'd be trying to follow him. And uh you know in those days, those planes, you're always losing altitude and airspeed. So you you get down to about 10, 8,000 feet, you'd have to break it off and uh climb up again and do it over. So we had done that a couple times. And each time I think he got a little more aggressive. And uh like we were and we were flying what we call in the milk bottle. It was like uh you couldn't see the ground, you couldn't see above you. It was just kind of like your screen here behind you. Flying in the fog. It's kind of like flying in the fog, but you could see maybe even a mile or a couple miles. Uh I could see him far away, but I couldn't see the ground and that kind of thing. So um, but that it wasn't any problem with what we were doing. But then on this final time, um, he had pulled, he he said, let's break it off. And uh on the and I heard that on the radio, and he was in a left turn climbing, kind of in a left climbing turn, and I was heading still nose down, and I was in a slight right turn. And uh when I tried to turn left and pull the stick back to join up with him, the plane just didn't respond. And it it just kept going down and kept this turn to the right. And uh I thought, you know, immediately I remember thinking, well, maybe the maybe I'm slower than I think. I mean, you kind of get it, if you're like driving a car, you kind of you can hear it and say I didn't think I was slow, but I didn't want to stall it. So I was kind of gentle on the back stick, and uh, but I couldn't turn. And I I plane would kept going to the right. And uh I'm thinking, well, maybe I got the speed breakout, maybe and I went into afterburner thinking I I could surely pick up speed uh if that were a problem. And and all this happened pretty quickly. I mean, I'm I'm going down at a pretty good angle. What speed would you guess you were going at? Uh uh 300 miles an hour. I mean, it was slow for that airplane, but not it wasn't stall speed. Uh uh and anyway, I couldn't see the ground, but then, and I'm thinking, I can, you know, maybe I've got the speed breakdown. And as I'm kind of going through this thought process, I I sort of break out under the cloud deck. And I'm I'm down at 2,000 feet, and it looks like I'm in the traffic pattern to land. I mean, I'm I'm going down and I'm making a turn, and I thought, uh, I thought, I'm gonna, I'm creating, I'm gonna crash it. This plane's gonna crash, and I remember thinking, I don't want, I don't want to eject out of this plane. And and they taught us at pilot training. That's what you you go through. You think, you know, you're in a kind of a quiet, air-conditioned environment. The last thing you want is to, you know, blow out of that thing. And I remember thinking that, and then I but I thought

Ejection Impact And Unexplainable Peace

SPEAKER_00 41:13

I got to get the nose up. So I put now I pull back on the stick, and uh I'm in a about a 30-degree right turn, and the plane just starts to go inverted. I mean, it just goes 90 degrees. And and I can't even remember uh making the I can I re but I remember my left hand just going down and grabbing the ejection trigger on the seat, and I passed out. And uh the next thing I remember is being on my hands and feet on the ground, dripping sweat, wet, wet uh helmet was off. I was really dazed, but I I I could see where the plane had hit the ground just 150 feet away from me, and it looked like tinfoil on the ground, and it it was all smoking and on fire, and it was in a clearing. I was not in the I was on a in a field. And this is where it gets kind of weird. I mean, I don't know, I mean, I was obviously dazed. I don't remember anything about I the only thing when I re I remember the canopy, the cockpit filling up with smoke when I hit that trigger. And I think what happened is the canopy blew off it as and and uh the that's when and then the ejection seat fires. I I was out of there and I obviously passed out. Planes going really fast, and it was uh way, way out of the uh limits for ejection. Way, way out. I mean, you're supposed to be straight and level, slow as you can get the plane going, uh minimum 2,000 feet of altitude. I'm I'm at the air for the report says I was less than a thousand feet, three hundred miles an hour, plane almost inverted, 150 degrees a bank, which is almost inverted. Upside down, almost upside down. Uh and you know the ejection you're now you're you only think you got your ejection system at that point. And I I passed out. And uh when I woke up, I remember looking out on this field, real stunned, felt like somebody had hit me in the back of the neck with a baseball bat. Uh and I couldn't turn my head. But I but I could see across this field a couple of people running across the field from left to right, uh, kids, about three or four of them, and they're running, and I can't hear anything. Everything's quiet except I can kind of hear what sounds like singing, like a choir singing almost. Just like and and these kids are running, and it you know, it's like you see in a movie, you know, just like slow motion. And and I I remember yelling to him, stop, you know, don't go near, you know, just like that. And then and I and I had, and I cannot explain this to you guys, but I I had this feeling like I've never had before of how God loves us. Peace. I wanted I wanted to hug everybody out there and tell them how Jesus loved him. Now, this this is not me 30 years old flying jet airplanes. I uh that was not who I was, but I felt that. And I felt like I just felt like I was saturated with love and peace for a few seconds. And then then the sound comes on and and the confusion starts and things. And I and even at that time, I can't really tell you what happened. I mean, I know that there were people coming in, there was a trailer park not too far away. People started coming from in the ambulance showed up, and life squad was there, and they put me in the life squad. But I was pretty dazed. I could remember, I remember riding in the ambulance. I couldn't remember who I had flown with that morning, but I could remember the phone number of the guard base, which I called all the time, you know, to get scheduled. So uh I had the ambulance guy call the guard base and tell them what had happened. So um went they took me to a little hospital uh near Portsmouth. This happened near Portsmouth. Actually happened near Wheelersburg, which is the life squad area that where they picked me up. And uh so I wasn't hurt. Uh my neck was stiff and stayed that way for a day or so, but it went away. But it uh I I wasn't hurt at all. I mean, I I had a thumb that was bleeding a little bit. I you know, considering what would happen, what had happened. So they took me to ripe, they came down that afternoon, and I the weather turned really bad after this. And pouring down rain. I remember sitting in this little hospital room in this little kind of a neighborhood clinic almost, pouring down rain. I could hear it hitting the windows and everything. They they were trying to, the guard base was trying to get down to get me, and they were trying to get a helicopter, and that the weather was so bad. So they they finally about four o'clock in the afternoon. This happened about eleven o'clock. About four o'clock, the ambulance took me up to Wright-Patterson. I stayed overnight at Wright-Patterson.

SPEAKER_06 46:48

And uh By this time, I assume your wife knows.

SPEAKER_00 46:52

Well, uh the the other pilot, Wiley, had got back to Springfield, landed, and you know, reported that I had lost my radio or something, and I was kind of on my own. He said he kind of hung around the area there for a while to see if he could uh if if there was any chance to uh form up again and had come home because he was low on fuel, and they knew I was be low on fuel. They knew that by this time that I was down somewhere. And then so that's when the life squad called and said I was okay and uh and they and I the the the guy was that was the squadron commander, became a good friend, Colonel Dudrow, uh called my wife and told her that I'd had an accident. That uh uh I think she was at her parents in in Dayton, where we would stay sometimes on the weekends. And I think then she and her dad drove over uh to the hospital. But uh they kept me that night just kind of observation, and then they released me. I would I was out of there at noon on Sunday and uh back at work on Monday.

SPEAKER_06 48:03

That's so think about this. You're going 300 mile an hour, flying in a fog. Something's going on with your plane, you can't figure it out. And I'm sure part of I would assume part of flight training is remaining calm, trying to diagnose the situation calmly. But at some point in time, you're going down and it's like, oh crap. Yeah. Like I need to hit this ejection, and you're inverted. And if anybody's ever seen uh video of someone ejecting from a fighter uh jet, it's a violent process.

SPEAKER_00 48:45

Oh, it is. And and and I'd say 50 percent of the time you get seriously hurt, you know, maybe not uh I mean like a broken arm or I mean you're supposed

Recovery Investigation And Survival Odds

SPEAKER_00 48:55

to be elbows in in and your legs in your head, neck back. I mean, I'm I got one foot full rudder. Uh I I wasn't in any position.

SPEAKER_06 49:07

You're inverted, and when you eject, that means you're pointing down, right?

SPEAKER_00 49:10

I think I went out at about 90 degrees and the plane continued. But it landed 153 feet away from me. And you know, at that at that speed, you can tell how I mean it was split seconds. The the report says that if I'd have I came over the top of a hill, they said. I don't remember this at all, but if I'd have gotten out a second earlier, I would have probably hit that hill during the ejection. And a half second later I'd been in the ground. So I mean, I knew besides the singing and the slow the the feeling that I hit, I knew that something remarkable had happened. And and uh there was never a doubt in my mind because I remember thinking about rejection and then and turning and kind of saying, no, I don't want to do that. But then I think God just said, hey Dave, we gotta get you out of here. It's time. I don't think I made that decision. I think God did something, and he and he did something just supernatural. There were there were uh ten people that saw the the plane coming down. Four of them actually saw the plane hit the ground. Nobody ever mentions anything other than they saw smoke coming out of the airplane. They they nobody saw me coming out.

SPEAKER_06 50:36

Uh and surely that if if they see the plane going down, you would see an injection, right? I mean, sure.

SPEAKER_00 50:43

And then you'd see the parachute. I mean, the the then I this was hilly tick country, and uh you know, a couple of them said it was, you know, you the whole thing disappeared behind the hill. But uh I think uh I think I came out the parachute open and I hit the ground. I don't think there was that quick. Yeah. I I don't think the parachute uh functioned for more than a second or two, if you know what I mean.

SPEAKER_06 51:08

I think it would be hard to disprove that God didn't have his hand in that.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

And you know, this if if I had been smarter in those days and a little, I'd have I'd have followed up on it a little bit more. You know what I mean? They uh the the accident re uh investigation went on for months, and uh I had plenty of time. I could have asked people about it, but I just honestly didn't care that much about it. I thought, eh, I got out of it, and they were you know, I thought they were going to be really upset with me about crashing an airplane, but uh they weren't. I mean, they were there were in May of 75, there were three Air National Guard accidents, and three pilots were killed. One of the planes had two two people and both of them were killed. And I was the only one that survived. I think the everybody was glad that I that I had survived. And uh the planes were old. Uh I I read in that report the other day that they valued the plane at $660,000. And and the the farmer got $300 and something dollars or $600 for his the damage to his field.

SPEAKER_06 52:26

So and you made you made the comment when uh the mark that it left in the field, how how deep was the engine in the ground?

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Well, uh I had some pictures of that, but the the you could from the aerial picture from the you could see the tailpipe sticking out of the ground and it was inverted. And and but it's you know the tailpipe's about that big. So you could see that sticking. Plane went s the engine went 16 feet in the ground. I mean, if you think about the force that it takes to push something 16 feet. 16 feet in the ground to get it out.

SPEAKER_06 53:00

And somehow you landed.

SPEAKER_00 53:03

I landed, people got me to the you know, the hospital. I was okay, went home, went back to work. And uh, if there was an investigation, they thought that I had sinus problems and different things. But you you mentioned like disorientation, and pilot training was was was good, I thought, in that you know, you you you can't panic. Once you you panic, you're you're done. So I they kept saying that they thought I was disoriented. I don't, I never remember any disorientation. Uh I knew what was going on, and uh I don't feel like I was uh panicked, uh, other than at the very last second when I realized if I don't get out of it, and they teach you that, you know, you're gonna, you're gonna you're gonna hesitate. Don't hesitate.

SPEAKER_01 53:51

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

So fast forward 20 years later.

Adoption Loss And Family Growth

SPEAKER_00 53:56

Okay, so life went on for me. And and and I mean we had we'd adopted a a little girl uh a year or so before this, two years before this. Before the wreck? Before the wreck. We we had you know, we'd been married now five years. We'd uh not had any children. Uh I'd gone through pilotaining, had our architectural business going, bought a little house, thought, you know, time to settle down. We we wanted to have children, and we and we weren't successful at it. So we adopted Vanessa, and uh and Lynn was pregnant when I had this crash and lost the baby a week later. So that was a hard that was hard for us because uh well, but then uh It was hard because two years after that she got pregnant again, and we had we did have Abby. So we did, we we've got an adopted daughter, we've got a our own at uh kind of forget which one's which anymore. But we uh we had a great everything was kind of kind of went back to normal for us. And then 20 years later, I mean this every year since it that happened the next year at the office, we started uh on the on May 31st. We'd have a I'd go buy a cake to bring it to work, and uh I I had a model airplane. I'd take the airplane and smash it into the cake at noon, and we'd you know uh have a few moments of uh fun and and eat the cake. So we did that every year, and and uh the everybody at the office looked forward to that. And uh so but 20 years later I thought, you know, I never went back and saw that place where the the accident was.

Going Back To The Crash Field

SPEAKER_00 55:50

Why don't we do that? So I told them, let's go back and we'll and I said, I'll call there and see if I can get any information because I don't even I wouldn't even know where to go. And so I uh dug the accident report out that had a phone number of the life squad. And uh so I called a 20-year-old phone number and I told the guy, I said, you know, you nobody will remember this, but I said, I I crashed a plane there 20 years ago and uh bailed out. And uh I I just wondered if anybody that's around that might remember that could show me where that field was. This guy says, You're the guy that punched out of that F-100. He says, Oh, we still talk about that. Uh I know a lot of people. He says, I know the two people that were the first ones there that are still on their life's wood. And uh he said, You come come over here and uh we'll we'll show you. So May 31st, 1995, Lynn and I drive over there and uh we meet with that. They had the news people, newspaper people there and everything. But they had these two people, a gal named Mary and a guy named Dave. And Mary was a young uh gal, just got on the life squad in 75. And uh Dave was older. Uh it was kind of one of the old hats there. So uh Mary got, they all got the call that a plane had gone down in somebody's field. And uh so Mary was nearby and she got there first, and she could see the plane wreck and the smoke, and the and uh she stopped, didn't go, so was looking across the fence, and she could see the ejection seat, me sitting uh about 150 feet away from her over on the other side of this field. And she didn't know what she said she was a little afraid to just didn't know what to do, really.

SPEAKER_01 57:46

Right.

SPEAKER_00 57:46

And Dave drove up and says, Well, we've got to go check out what happened. And uh so they climbed over this fence and uh went over to me. And I said, This is where things get weird. Uh I said, Well, tell me about that, because I don't, you know, I don't really recall that. Well, the first thing I remember, I'm out of the seat, I'm on the ground. And they said, Well, you were you were sitting in the ejection seat. And I said, That tell me what tell me what happened. And they said, You were trying to get the seatbelt open. You were alive, you you know, Mary thought that you know I was probably dead. Uh, but but he says, You were alive and you were trying to get the seatbelt open. And I said, Tell me about that. She said, Well, it was a round seat belt buckle. And I said, Yeah, that's exactly right. It's a big dial about that big, and you have to turn the thing, and it you've got your harness that comes over the finger that you've got to put two pieces of your harness through, and then you plug that pin into the round buckle, and it's all part of the ejection seat. It's what uh blows apart uh during the ejection. And uh she said, Yeah, you you showed us how to turn it, and we turned it and got it apart, and you got out, and everything seemed okay, you weren't hurt too bad. And and I said, You know, you don't understand this, but that is just absolutely impossible to happen. Impossible to happen. I said, Because if that seatbelt doesn't come apart during the ejection, you never get a parachute because the ejection sequence is the canopy blows off. About a tenth of a second later, the rocket fires is shooting you out of the plane. If the canopy doesn't blow off, it it'll blow you right through the canopy. So but as you go out of the plane, there's a lanyard attached to the plane that uh when you get above the tail of the plane, it pulls that lanyard and it kind of wakes up the parachute and says, How high is this guy? If you're below 30,000 feet, it immediately uh uh deploys a a uh uh charge that blows your seatbelt apart and has what they call a butt slapper that pushes you out of the seat to get you away from the ejection seat. If you're once you're away from the ejection seat, there's another lane attached to the to the ejection seat that actually pulls the pin on the parachute and opens the parachute. So you there's three things that have to happen the canopy, the seat, and and and then the you have to get away from that seat. The seat weighs 50 or 100 pounds, and it would you you want to get away from it. So and frankly, this the back of the seat, what you're sitting against, the cushion, is your parachute. That's what you're you will you wear it out to the airplane, you sit down in the kind of a bucket. And I I said, I, you know, if I didn't separate from that seat, I hit that ground at the same speed as the airplane.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:58

300 mile an hour.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:00

And he said, Well, we don't know anything about that, but uh all we can do is tell you what we did. You asked us what happened. So I had heard nothing about that for 20 years. I mean, I I had just assumed everything worked. I went back to the accident report and kind of went through it. They said uh the I mean they had two sentences in there about you know, the ejection sequence seemed to be worked properly, and you know, da-da-da. So uh I can't explain that, but I can tell you that if that's true, I didn't have a parachute open, and I and I don't I don't know how I can explain that. I don't know how the Air Force could explain it. I don't I mean it's uh I'm sure there's something there that I don't understand, but I never put you know, I never could even get into that seat by myself and get the straps and things and never did it because you'd always walk out the plane, the crew chief would be there helping you get stuff. You couldn't, you know, reach all that. I I I could not have gotten into this. I might I thought, well, maybe I was walking around on the ground and I saw the ejection seat, so I went over and sat down in it and thought, well, you know, that couldn't happen. So I can't explain that except that it just, I mean, when I heard that, I thought, God, he really did.

The Ejection Seat Mystery

SPEAKER_06 1:02:28

Saved your life.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:30

Yeah, so if that's the case, what is it, why would he do that? I mean, I'm I'm I've never, you know, I'm never done anything important, never, you know, why would God go to the ex extreme? And I mean, I think if he did that, if he put me on the ground somehow, and I'm sure he had a hand in it one way or the other, but assuming he uh the extreme of the sitting in that chair, in that ejection seat, why would he do that? You know, he maybe he's got a plan, you know, maybe he, but you know, I've gone through that's that was that'll be 50 we 51 years ago next week. And uh I mean I've always loved the Lord, I've always uh been a Christian. You know, I uh I d I did get into the ministry this uh jail ministry uh a few years, uh well 20 20 years ago. Um and uh and you know God's probably but that's you know that's not the kind of stuff I don't think that God's you know does the kind of uh thing that he did to save my life. So uh I think every every one of us has things that we could look back to and say, God stepped in here, God did something here, why would he do that? I mean, I've got something that's pretty spectacular, pretty, you know, but I can't I can't say that I've done anything. Uh maybe maybe there's still something out there, you know, for real.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:12

You're a pretty humble man. Well, uh I mean you've you've done a lot in your life. You you talk about the jail ministry. I mean, Donald Reed is someone that we've had uh share his testimony here on the podcast, and uh I had zero clue that you were in the jail when when Donald was in there. I mean, even if that's the reason that God spared you, look at what Donald's doing now.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:38

Well, I I think that's the way God works. And I think that God, I mean, going back to 1950 or whatever, you know, Lynn's family moved to Cincinnati, and we our parents moved to uh uh moved to Cincinnati from Indianapolis. I mean, I think God looks ahead, he can, he can say, hey, I've got something that needs to happen uh a hundred years from now, and I need to make some things, make some moves. And I so I I think that's the kind of God we have that can take all the stupid things that we do, all the sins that we and and can somehow weave it together for good. And uh I you know I I see that in everybody I talk to, that there's there's just things about uh people's lives that are unexplainable, except that God wanted it to happen. And uh so I like I'm 81 years old. Uh I've had a great life and uh great family and fun adventure.

SPEAKER_06 1:05:51

Uh you've been blessed and you've been blessed. You've blessed many in your career. I'm sure that you had many uh employees that worked for you, contractors that worked for you, um, that you were a blessing to. And and one story I do want you to share, if you would, is about your your partner at the architectural firm. Because I think, I think that's another, you know, not only with Donald, you know, helping Donald when he was in jail, but I but there's a pretty powerful story about your partner, the architectural firm and his conversion. Talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:27

Well, uh no question. Uh that's another uh relationship that that God put together uh unlikely unlikely we met in college uh he was a year younger because I was a year late getting into the architecture program but Dennis is a natural born architect he he was really good and and was good at everything and we did projects together and uh we we finally in night in 75 started our partnership but he uh not too long after we had started our partnership we had actually gotten he'd gotten married that same summer that summer everybody got married

Why Would God Save Me

SPEAKER_00 1:07:10

uh in in uh 67 and uh he married Barb and um but we were we were in college together we were friends but uh it never really dawned on either one of us that we would be partners uh for life in a in a uh business but we graduated he went his way i went I was in the Air Force for a couple years Dennis was in it went to Europe and was uh for a summer trying to get a job as an architect over there and and came back and was working for firms and things that uh during the the time even when we were in college when they were we we were halfway through college and he had a falling out with his parents Dennis did he his uh he had married a Catholic girl and married he was Catholic and married Barb who was Bros and it's idol it didn't go over very well with his father and his father kicked him out of the house one time uh and Dennis said if if we leave dad you'll never see me again and uh he didn't for 20 some years uh uh they had no relationship with his parents so and and Dennis lived on one side of town I lived on the other and even though we were very close uh in business and and and always had a great uh relationship in fact we're 50-50 partners and people always told us don't be 50 you can't be a 50-50 partner that's a bad deal and and at the beginning there I told Dennis I can't keep up with you he's a he was a good architect he could do things twice as fast and I've gone with the guard a lot you know in those beginning years I was for for three years I was gone on Saturdays couldn't work and stuff I said Dennis I can't keep up with you and I said uh you you be 60 let me be 40 I'm fine with that and he said David we're gonna be 50-50 we're we should we're always gonna be 5050 and uh if we can't work things out we'll work things out you know and and so uh I never forgot that I mean that and and we did we would we we were 50-50 partners for almost 40 years but we never socialized a lot uh he and Barb didn't get along very well it uh they they were fighting a lot and uh I had kids he didn't have any kids and uh and then 1991 my mother died and I remember I I walked into Dennis's office and I said you know I'm not gonna tell you how to respond to your mom and dad I but I uh I I said one of these days you're gonna pick up a newspaper and it's gonna you're gonna see an obituary by by one of your parents and it's gonna be too late. I'm just just saying and uh so shortly after that he got together with his mom and dad and that uh really helped out uh dad was a lot of fun that came to the office for a few years but died shortly after that a couple years

Dennis Finds Faith Through Hospice

SPEAKER_00 1:10:30

um but Bob or uh uh Dennis was uh uh a Catholic uh but he never went to church or anything he grew up went through the the schooling you know catechisms uh but I he never uh he he never made a big point about disagreeing with me about things I mean we we were I was always kind of a Christian oriented Dennis was not so much and uh and then and like said he's he and he's he and Barb fought a lot they were kind of living apart even at times and uh he uh he told me one day Barb had cancer found out she had cancer and and as he's kind of an alpha dog you know uh uh he just kind of took the thing by the horns he said and and he wasn't satisfied with what the doctors were telling him and he he told me one time he said Barb's sitting on the couch on a Sunday afternoon she's crying uh he's trying to get sense out of what the doctors are telling him and he says you know we're I'm gonna take you to the Mayo clinic and he he says he called the Mayo clinic Wednesday afternoon they're on the plane to Rochester to Minnesota and he went back with her 13 times during the next year and a half while she had cancer treatments at the Mayo clinic and uh he stayed with her and took care of her and when she came back you know there were five years where she was okay but then she got she came down with cancer again and uh Dennis told me one time when he was in Rochester he says you know he says it was midnight cold and he said Barb was in the room she's sleeping in the in their hotel room she says I walked out down the street and went in there was a Catholic church down there and he says the doors were open I went in and sat down and he says you know it felt good and and over the years and she she came back down with cancer uh this time she had treatment at UC but I think it was like 40 some times that he went and sat with her while she had chemo and she died at a hospice and uh he called me at church I was at church one day and I knew she was in hospice not not going to make it and he called and said she died and I I just got up and left church and but he just found Jesus in in this and hospice was a big part of it. I think hospice were so nice to him and he you know they had good programs he went to some after death kind of programs that they had and and he became a volunteer at hospice and he he he wears a cross around his neck I mean he's people think he's a priest anymore and uh and he goes to church and it it it was an answer to 40 years of praying I mean I never really thought that I'd have Dennis I mean I wanted to go to heaven with Dennis and uh God God even gave me that so it's uh it's it's been a great ride and he's he's closer than a brother yeah now and uh he's got health problems and of his own that he's dealing with but he's but this time he's got Christ.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:14

He's got Christ and he's got you.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:16

And and me and and Lynn very close to him he and Lynn go back and forth with scriptures stuff books to pass it back and forth they they have a close uh close relationship with that and you and you said here earlier and you said I don't know I got you know what I didn't do anything special in my life.

SPEAKER_06 1:14:34

There's there's two people in a matter of 30 minutes, you know, Donald Reed being one of them and and Dennis being the other that you completely changed their lives right I don't know some small I mean I didn't do any of that God did but uh he's put us together you know and that's all he he has to do really I mean I I think that if anybody becomes a Christian they become a Christian because they see something in somebody else that they want.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:10

And I think this is a great thing about being in this jail ministry. I've had a number of guys saying you know my life's been screwed up I've never had a regular family or anything and I, you know and I see the some of these jailers here and I see some of the even the sheriff the deputies and things are you know and then you come in and you come are I re at the at the you know they they see something in somebody that they want in their own life. I think that's why Jesus told these disciples love one another because it's you know people are going to not because of a great sermon or a you know some televangel thing it's they're gonna see something in somebody that they they don't see in everybody else. You love one another. And I think that uh really means something uh and that's that's why people say I want that and I'm gonna be I want to know more about that.

SPEAKER_06 1:16:06

And why did they call them Christians? Because they were different?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:10

They were different. Yeah and I think you know uh I think Donald Reed had a lot of good people in his life that helped uh but I you know Ed the jailer there was really important to him and uh uh he had a lot of help Dennis uh yeah I think he probably saw that Lynn and I had something kind of special that that he wanted um I th I can there was another point I was gonna make I can't think of what it was here but uh uh I think oh I what I was gonna say is uh when I first started this jail ministry there's this old guy Bill Ashcraft

Jail Ministry And Consistent Presence

SPEAKER_00 1:16:52

who was the first guy met at this church we had been I was a member of this church at Cincinnati for 50 years and then we moved out to Brookville and uh met this guy at this little church we couldn't keep going back to Cincinnati so we we decided we were going to join a church out here and met this guy and he a few weeks later at when we were attending church there he asked for help in the jail ministry. And I thought I don't care about that jail ministry you know uh but I I like this guy and I said I think I'll God I just kind of felt like God wanted me to tell him I'll do it with you. So that got started and the thing that he said is it's got to be consistent. It can't be willy-nilly it can't be hey I'm here this week but next week I got a birthday party I got to go to you know it's it's all about consistency and and I think that's one thing that the guys like Donald and they see that these two old guys would come in every week. I mean if it was Thursday or Thanksgiving's or on Thursday that make any difference we're gonna be we'll be you know we're gonna be there on Thanksgiving too. So uh but God changed my heart on this I I I didn't care anything about jail guys when I was growing up I thought you know they made mistakes throw the key away and be punished but uh he changed my heart on that they're real people and they all have uh stories and yeah things and God loves them.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:22

Yeah changed my heart on it too sitting at this table for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:27

Yeah what you got and jail ministry I feel like those are the people that need to hear Jesus' words the most you know those testimonies of hope of forgiveness you know I mean how many people that go to jail that just I can't believe I did that or you know what I mean like the conviction that's in them and to know that Jesus died on the cross for their sins and just the power and forgiveness I feel like it's I'll tell you it's it's a it's a secret but it's a really a great ministry because you got these guys captive you know they don't have to come on Thursday nights but they all do. They get cookies and things too but they they they really like to come and it's a break for them. But uh yeah they they they realize that I mean if there's if there's one thing I want them to walk away with because I don't get uh I don't push for baptisms and uh you know you know commitments. Ed is better at that and the and and I I I need to learn some more from that. But my feeling is I want these guys to know one thing when they leave jail that that God is very forgiving to them and he's anxious he loves them they can't even imagine you know really none of us can but but he loves them regardless of who they are and what they've done. Doesn't make any difference I mean I I like to use the prodigal son story because you know what more could a kid do in terms of making a mistake than telling his father I wish you were dead so that I could have my you my stuff you know and and so and the father what kind of father would say here take your stuff and do what you want to do who could who could be that risky that's our God. He says you got free will to go do what you want to do. And he's hoping looking out on the horizon waiting for us waiting for that son to come you know hoping that he's gonna make the right choices and what he

Prodigal Son And Radical Forgiveness

SPEAKER_00 1:20:35

does man put the gold ring on his finger put the sandals on his feet you know kill the fatty camp we're celebrating you know and and I I dare say nobody in the jail that I've gone to has done anything worse than that kid's done. And God is just so forgiving and if they they maybe they won't get that you know while they're sitting in the cell like Donald did my hope is that they'll remember it. You know at some point you get God will give them the circumstances hey remember what that old guy said at the jail that's the way I I think about you I the I got to go back to the jail last week Thursday night uh I hadn't been for five months I've I've I've quit the the ministry because I Lynn's well I need to be at home on Thursday night. So I'd done it long enough get some younger guys in there. But I I got a chance to go back the other night Ed had something going on I told him if you guys let me come in and I thought what could I tell these guys because I they turn over pretty fast I don't there's a couple guys I knew but ten or more of them I probably didn't know didn't so I thought what would what what's an important message? I thought well what would Jesus think would be an important message.

Foot Washing And Servant Leadership

SPEAKER_00 1:21:59

So I wouldn't you know you look at the Last Supper here's his last chance he's talking he's got the disciples here and uh he knows he's gonna die you know he's got an evening what are you going to talk about? So and I use the first uh part of John chapter 13 where he's sitting down at the Last Supper and he I think the sentence says he he wanted to show them the full extent of God's love. That caught my attention a full extent something's gonna happen here. You know there were he's gonna show them not talk he's not gonna tell them a sermon he's not gonna he's gonna show them something that that is a demonstration of God's love. So then it says and he he knew that he had come from God and he's going back to God and that God had put all things under his power. So what do you think what you know what do you learn from that sense? He had what how much power is God's power? You know it's everything he's got everything under his power he knew his came from God he's knew he's going back and the fourth thing is he knew it. He knew he he he now maybe he always knew it but I'm not sure he did. Maybe he he God kind of revealed that to him everything's under your power so what does he do? The first thing when God gives him everything under his control everything in the universe you're in charge of everything he strips off his clothes and he pulls out a bowl of water and washes our feet that's I mean you know we spend our whole lives trying to climb to the top of the pyramid you know we'll start at the bottom and we'll get we'll try to get to that tip. Man that's a one-way street we're not going all if you get the corner office and you know we're not gonna give that up Christ gave it all up and he so I that's if that if that's the only lesson that somebody walks out of jail with God loves you enough to take the crappiest job pretty much he could think of, which is worship crap off of people's feet uh and and is willing to do that for us. And then a few hours later he goes to the cross and dies for us. So I think the Christian message is real simple. It's it's not complicated and I'm not good at it. I mean I'm not I I've never been able to memorize scripture real well or anything and uh I don't feel like I really even academically understand a lot about Christianity but I don't think you have to it's very simple God loves you he died for you he's willing to do anything and if they can walk out of jail with that uh that's probably all I can do very powerful I got one last question

Neil Armstrong And A Life Mentor

SPEAKER_00 1:25:11

if you could sit on a park bench and have a conversation with someone living or deceased who would it be and why well I thought about your question and uh I was gonna say uh Neil Armstrong kind of caused my flying uh I mean uh if and I had a I met Neil Armstrong a couple of times had a almost bought an airplane from him he he had an airplane that was for sale and I had lunch with him and we talked about it and I thought you know I was so excited to talk to this guy because he's he's the unique person in human history. I mean he was the first guy to walk on the moon but he's also the last guy that'll ever be the first guy to walk on the moon. I mean he's the the first human being to ever step onto a different body uh in the universe yeah and never be never be anybody like him and I I I you know I remember asking him questions and and I had been briefed before I met him for lunch that day that don't ask him a lot about the moon he's tired of talking about the moon I said that's why I want to talk about the moon so we talked a little bit about it anyway and I I don't think he was acted tired of talking about it. He was happy to but I'm gonna change a little bit because I didn't get to talk about Bob Clippert's dad here's a guy that uh was kind of unlikable but by by Bob. I mean Bob and his dad clash they just didn't get along and his dad I think never had a college education or anything but he was the smartest guy I ever knew and he started his own business he invented things that guy was just terrific and he but he was also street smart and I think he just knew that he loved Bob and Bob didn't believe that a lot I think Bob had a hard time with that but he he he pulled Bob in using his friends like I said he got Bob at the plant Bob eventually became a vice president of the plant didn't didn't want to work for his dad but he he he grew to love his dad and uh but I had a chance to work with this guy he was in an airplane accident uh that little field I talked to you Pat Up he he had uh wrecked he had taken off at a little signal engine plane the propeller system had broken and he had crashed and broken every bone in his body I mean every bone in his body had pushed his face back put an eye out tore an elbow out broke his legs so bad he couldn't really walk and stuff So he was trying to put uh tools together, machines together in in the plant. And I I liked working with him. And so he and I worked together in the evenings a lot of times, just the two of us. And he'd say, Dave, put that uh take that air hose and connect it up to this fitting and now let's try that. And he couldn't do it because his hands were just too messed up. And and uh so but I had a chance to meet work with this guy for years, and he liked me and I liked him. And uh he was a huge influence in my life. Uh not so much as a Christian or anything, but just do the right thing. Just you know, if you if you're gonna do something, do it right treat people right. He he he told me one of his little bits of philosophy was don't ever loan a friend money. He says it just doesn't ever work. He says if you're gonna if a friend needs money, give it to him. Uh but don't loan it to him because he'll start ducking into buildings when he sees you coming, you know, he'll he'll figure you've got more than he does. And I thought, you know, that's just smart. He but he there was just hundreds of things like that. He was a smart guy. Uh really important and and and I'd love to just uh chat with him again.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:27

Yeah, the man that that planted the seed of flying, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:32

Yeah, and and he he loved to fly and uh made that possible through his family.

SPEAKER_06 1:29:39

Was he still around when you had the accident?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:42

He was yeah, he was he had left Cincinnati and retired. He had had health problems, his wife had health problems, they moved out to Arizona. Uh, but he he died in 83. Uh that accident was in 75.

Relationships Matter Most In The End

SPEAKER_06 1:29:57

Dave, uh remarkable story. And you know what I what I'm drawn to with with people like you is just your humbleness. You know, you you sit here and you share this testimony for an hour and forty some minutes of your life, right? And it's it's a remarkable. I mean, you survived miraculously this plane crash. You know, you remember where you saw your wife the first time in fifth grade and you're 81. Yeah, you adopted, you had a daughter, you got two daughters, two daughters, um, ran a successful architectural firm with a man who sounds like was a polar opposite of you, but you guys were like best of friends. Watch that conversion happen right before your eyes. You know, a man whose whose relationship with his wife was not good, but then when she got sick, what did he do?

SPEAKER_00 1:31:03

Stepped up.

SPEAKER_06 1:31:04

He stepped up and he showed his love, you know. Um the jail ministry, you know, pouring into these men and women who, you know, have done wrong in their lives. We've all done wrong in our lives, right? But you know, these those those people have have done things that have have put them in in jail and and hear you go and on a Thursday night and pour into them, right? It's a remarkable life. And I know there's some challenges you're facing right now, and and we will we will pray for you and pray for your family. And uh I I just can't thank you enough for coming up here um having the courage to share your life story. You know, now it's documented for for everyone to hear, and uh, and it's remarkable. And I I can't thank you enough.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:54

Well, you guys are good at this, believe me. And you're good to pick up on little things that came up while we were talking today. And you're you're real you you and Ben are good at this. And I uh I I think your audience ought to appreciate how you guys do this. Everybody likes to talk about themselves, but you don't do it very much. And and I've I remember just recently, Abby, my daughter, said, uh, you know, Dan Dan, why don't you uh you know talk to the grandkids about this because they're interested.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:25

But so like you said, it's kind of documented. If they want to watch it, they can.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:29

For sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:32:30

That was one of the original ideas behind the whole thing was you know, documented for grandkids and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_06 1:32:36

Yeah, that legacy piece. Uh, because I had grandparents that I'd well you were in my office, you saw the my great-grandfathers uh graduating from embalming school in in 1901, you know. I would love to know that story, you know, uh the challenges he faced and uh you know, running his own business and why in the world you would ever want to do that type of work, but he did, and um, and I don't really know that that story. So, you know, this is this is great for you, great for your family, uh, remarkable story. And uh and I know Donald was touched. He's already he reached out uh as soon as he found out you were you were coming on, so I'm sure he uh he'll be listening and and uh remarkable story.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:18

Well uh it's it's been a privilege to be here. And I, you know, you uh you you proved two points with your broadcast. Life's interesting, and God's involved in every one of our lives doing things that we uh rarely are aware of. But I think he is working miracles in everybody's life, it's uh not just a few.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:44

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 1:33:45

I think it's such a powerful story like you talked about, but I think what stands out to me the most is you can see the relationships and how much relationships matter to you. Like when you talked about Bob, when you talked about Dennis, when you talked about Bob's dad, when you talked about your wife, like those you could see the passion and like the the memories and everything in your eyes. And I think that's like the the most powerful thing to me. That's one of the things I like when I'm just sitting over here and just watching, like as you tell your story and and you go through it, you can see like the emotions and like the passion. And yeah, I mean, you listen to stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:18

As you get older, Ben, you realize relationships are about the only thing that really matter. Everything else starts to kind of fade away. And uh relationships are just that's that's where it's at. That's where it's at. It's the only thing that matters. Yeah. And we miss it. We just we we don't think about it. We're too busy putting one foot in front of the other all the time. So it's a great program. I uh give you guys credit for what you do. It's I never never was a podcaster.

SPEAKER_06 1:34:47

Now you are.

Closing Thanks And Patreon Reminder

SPEAKER_06 1:34:50

All right, everybody. Be sure to like and share and do all those things. Remarkable story, amazing man. And uh go out and be tempered.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:00

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SPEAKER_05 1:35:05

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SPEAKER_02 1:35:27

Patrons, a clear choice.

SPEAKER_04 1:35:30

I want to share something that's become a big part of the BeTempered mission: Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part. Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and men putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple real stories, raw truth, resilient faith. So that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.