BeTempered
We believe that everyone has the potential to achieve greatness, and that the key to unlocking this potential is through personal development. Our podcasts are designed to help you cultivate the skills and mindset you need to achieve your goals and live the life you want.
BeTempered
BeTempered Episode 110 – Surviving Afghanistan, Searching for Purpose with Caleb Hutcheson
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A lot of people can tell you what combat looks like. Fewer can tell you what happens when the war follows you home.
Caleb Hutcheson spent his deployment in Helmand Province, Afghanistan, conducting route clearance missions as a combat engineer. Every day meant searching for hidden IEDs where a single mistake could cost lives. He shares what it was like driving the Buffalo, surviving an explosion beneath his vehicle, and discovering a second device nearby that could have made an already terrifying situation even worse.
But this conversation goes far beyond Afghanistan. Caleb opens up about the difficult transition back to civilian life, the depression that crept in after military service, and the identity crisis that can come when you go from having a clear mission to wondering where you belong. He discusses alcohol, dark thoughts, comparison, and the spiritual battles that often happen long before anyone else notices.
Caleb also shares how faith became more than something he believed. Through conviction, surrender, Bible study, prayer, and unexpected opportunities, God began redirecting his life toward ministry. What started as small steps of obedience eventually led him to Bible college and serving at Community of Faith Church in Lewisburg, Ohio.
Hosts Dan Schmidt and Ben Spahr sit down with Caleb Hutcheson for an honest conversation about combat, purpose, faith, resilience, and finding hope when life looks fine on the outside but feels empty within.
Support the show:
https://www.patreon.com/betempered
Sponsors And Patreon Invitation
SPEAKER_00Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my goddamn hands Catrin's Glass.
SPEAKER_05Thanks, Allie. Things like doors and windows go into making a house, but when it's your home, you expect more, like the great service and selection you'll get from Catrance Glass. Final replacement windows from Catrins come with a lifetime warranty, including accidental glass breakage replacement. Also ask for custom shower doors and many other products and services.
SPEAKER_00Patron's Glass, a clear choice.
SPEAKER_04I want to share something that's become a big part of the Be Tempered mission: Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and Ben putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple real stories, raw truth, resilient faith, so that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.
Welcome, Prayer, And Guest Intro
SPEAKER_06Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, where we explore the art of finding balance in a chaotic world.
SPEAKER_01Join us as we delve into insightful conversations, practical tips, and inspiring stories to help you navigate life's ups and downs with grace and resilience.
SPEAKER_06We're your host, Dan Schmidt, and Ben Sparr. Let's embark on a journey to live our best lives.
SPEAKER_01This is Be Tempered.
SPEAKER_02Lord, thank you for this special day. Thank you for bringing me here. Thank you for just getting me connected uh with the Be Tempered uh guys. And right now, today, Lord, whatever I say, whatever questions they ask, what whatever information I give, I just want it to uh to give you glory. And I just want anybody who's listening to to understand that uh uh my my purpose in life now is is to point people to you. Uh I I want people to know what I know about you. I I've got a lot more to learn, but I want people to know what I know that Jesus, you you really are the Son of God, and you really did come to this earth in the flesh and you died for our sins. You sacrificed your life, you gave your life, and you uh you went to hell for us so we wouldn't have to. You you took stripes for us, you took our punishment so we wouldn't have to. And on the third day you you were raised, and uh uh your your glorified body walked on this earth, and then you ascended, and you're now seated at the right hand of the throne of the Lord God Almighty, and you are coming back one day. And Father, that's that's my prayer that everybody would know that and come to know you. We just ask this in the name of Jesus. Amen. Amen. Amen. All right. Sorry, I'm not a hat guy. You have hair. Yeah, I still got my hair. I'm holding on to it for dear life. Yeah. So has been they are too. I am.
SPEAKER_06No, I shave mine. I'm good. I gave up that fight a long time ago.
SPEAKER_02I'm fighting the fight. I think I think my skull's too. I just I'm praying I keep my hair because like my skull's just gnarly, bumpy, just ugly.
SPEAKER_06You got a full head of hair. What are you talking about? Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_02There's there's there's signs. There's signs of dissipation, I guess you could say.
SPEAKER_06All right, you know what episode?
SPEAKER_011010.
SPEAKER_02Nice. 1010.
SPEAKER_01I got you, Sean. Set a number.
SPEAKER_06All right. Here we go. What's up, everybody? Welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast, episode number 110.
SPEAKER_01Good job, Ben. You're welcome.
SPEAKER_06Hey, today on the podcast, we welcome Caleb Hutchinson. Caleb grew up in Arkansas and eventually answered the call to serve our country as a United States Marine. During his time overseas in Afghanistan, Caleb was one of the most did one of the most dangerous jobs imaginable, diffusing IEDs in the middle of a war zone where every step and every decision could change lives forever. But Caleb's story didn't stop when the deployment ended. After the military, his journey led him into Bible school. Deeper into his faith and eventually into a life centered around serving others and building community. Today Caleb lives in Lewisburg, Ohio, where he's actively involved with the community of faith church and continuing to impact people through leadership, humility, and service. This conversation dives into the realities of war, fear, faith, identity, purpose, and what it looks like to be tempered through life's hardest moments. Caleb, my man, welcome to the Be Tempered Podcast.
SPEAKER_02All right. Thank you all for having me.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, man. Uh I think our our connection first came at the uh community of faith' uh men's breakfast. Right. Where a couple, I don't know, two or three months ago, I lose track of time. But you know, we had met there, Sean and I were there with the booth, and what a powerful Saturday morning with uh a ton of men. Right um and uh we had a conversation and I think you gave up or got up and gave the opening prayer, if I remember right, and kind of introduced uh, you know, our group and some other groups that were there. And uh I was I was deeply impressed just with our our simple conversation, just kind of getting to know each other. And so, you know, I knew there was a story there. You know, there's there's not many people around our area with um with your accent, uh-huh. It kind of gave it away a little bit that yeah, you know, you you weren't from around here, and uh, and then you know, coming into the office and learning your story, it was like, wow, like it's impressive that you're here, right? And it's it's a leap of faith. So thank you for for coming up here today.
SPEAKER_02Sure. I'm I'm I'm honored. First podcast uh in my life.
SPEAKER_06So first of many, I'm sure. Right. We'll see. Yeah, I don't know. No, um, but we appreciate that.
Growing Up In Arkansas
SPEAKER_06So you know how we like to start every episode is talk about what life was like for you growing up as a kid.
SPEAKER_02Okay. Well, yeah, um grew up in Arkansas. I grew up in a small town in southwest Arkansas called Magnolia. So it's um it's probably I think like 11,000. I don't know. I think it's going down, I don't know. But uh 10, 10,000, 11,000. Um yeah, born and raised there. Um went to you know, high school there, uh, graduated with like 200. And uh that's where my dad's from. My mom's from a little town just south of there in in uh Louisiana. So all of most of my family is all in just that county I grew up in, and and then just that area in North Louisiana where my mom's from. So uh I have one brother. He's uh two years younger than me, Joel. He still lives in Magnolia. My parents still live there, and uh he's actually an attorney. Uh so he yeah, he went to went, he got out of college and and uh was working in like a title company, title work and stuff, and I think a man finally uh said, like, Joel, you know, if you ever want to wait and make any kind of money, you need to probably consider law school. And so he he did that. He went to the University of Arkansas and uh now he's actually uh he's got he just started his own practice, I think, a year ago, but uh he's also a prosecutor. So I don't know if he loves that part, but it it it pays and it gives uh state benefits, so I think that's his pull towards that. But uh Yeah, so so growing up, uh Yeah, I I grew up in church. Uh I went my parents still go to the same church that I grew up in. It was a smaller, non-denominational church, and uh like I I grew up in Baptist country, so there's a Baptist church on every street corner. I mean, uh Baptist Methodist, and that's pretty much it. But so I grew up in one of the few kind of oddball churches, I'd say, but not that they're not we're super weird or nothing, but it just wasn't I always felt like, man, I feel like I go to the weird church. I don't know why. Just because it wasn't Baptist.
SPEAKER_06But uh What'd your parents do for a living?
SPEAKER_02So my dad my dad worked at the same place for like 44 years until it shut, and he'd still be there today if it didn't shut down. So uh he worked at a place, uh it's called Unit Structures, and they made um uh out of pine lumber, they laminated lumber and uh made like these large beams, laminated beams. Uh you see a lot of them in uh churches, like the arches you see. Um that was kind of their specialty, church, church buildings, uh something that the wood was actually exposed, you know. Um so that some bridges, but just anyway. So he worked there for I mean, I think it may have been like his second job, you know. He was like 19 or something when he started, and he worked there all my all growing up. And uh he worked most Saturdays, actually. And so I never saw him in the mornings, and then he'd he'd be home when I got home for school, you know. And uh so that eventually shut down. He had a couple, had a couple other jobs, I think, but uh it never did open back up or anything. It never did, he just kind of he just kind of drifted into retirement. So he's he's uh he's actually like 74, 73, 74. Uh I guess I ought to know, but anyways.
SPEAKER_06That's okay.
SPEAKER_02But uh yeah, so he's he's kind of living the retired life now. My mom, she uh for man, she's probably close to 30 years, being that she runs the what we call the housing authority, which is uh federally funded housing in my town. And uh a lot of a lot of the units are like uh, you know, fixed income for elderly. Uh so there's a lot of there's like I know there's one apartment complex that's for the elderly. Um and like I said, a lot of fixed income uh units, but there's uh also the Section 8. So uh everybody knows my mother.
SPEAKER_06Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Now I'm gonna tell you, my mother, I swear she knows everybody from Little Rock to Baton Rouge. I'm telling you, like South Arkansas, North Louisiana, and and and she's related too. That's that's a big problem. So uh I I refuse to go to Walmart with her when I'm home. She talks to everybody. Yeah. She uh and she is, she's just she's got a reputation. Everybody loves her. She's uh, you know, the typical mom, you know, she's a mother through and through. And so uh she'll she'll talk. Yeah for sure.
SPEAKER_06Yeah. So talk about whether what did you play any sports or anything growing up as a kid?
SPEAKER_02I grew up playing baseball uh and football. Baseball, it's a pretty big deal. You know, we had the I know you have the YMCA up here, but we didn't, we don't really, I don't guess they're a big deal um in Arkansas, or at least my part of the state. We have the boys and girls club. So uh the boy we called it the boys club, you know. So everybody played from T ball, coach pitch on up until you got into high school, everybody played uh at the boys club, played baseball every year. So uh I did all that. I played in high school, I played football, played uh baseball. So um, yeah, sports were kind of a big deal. Always into that. So were you a good student? Uh good enough, I guess. I uh I was probably smart enough to be all A's, but I I don't know. I just didn't have the I I don't know. I I did good enough, you know. Right. I guess if I wouldn't have had parents that cared, I I I don't know. I wouldn't have I didn't care too much for school work. Uh I think of all through junior high, high school, of all the books we were supposed to read, I think I actually from cover to cover finished one. Yeah. That was where the were where the red fern grows. Yeah. Yeah. Oh man. Yeah. Perfect book for a for a boy, you know. Just a boy and his two dogs tune hunting. So I ate. Yeah, I ate it up, you know. I think they died though, I think. But anyway.
SPEAKER_06Sounds like it sunk in. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02Anyway.
College And The Urge To Leave
SPEAKER_06So So you go through school playing sports, all those good things. What's next coming out of school?
SPEAKER_02So actually, uh I have a uh in my hometown, we have a uh small university, four year university, uh, Southern Arkansas University, home of the mule riders. So um I I I guess you know, this would have been 15, 16, 17 years ago. Uh, and everybody went to college. Just about. That was the thing. You just went to college. You go get your bachelor's. That's what you're supposed to do. And um I hope that's kind of changing that mindset. I think it is. Yeah, I think so. Um so that's what I did. Um, I just stayed in my hometown. I lived at, I lived at the house. I tell people I went to 13th grade. I just went to the went to went to college there. Uh I had a bunch of guys I grew up with. We were in some of the same classes in college. So, but I actually I actually finished. I got my bachelor's. Uh I got a bachelor's of science in industrial technology. And uh I don't know what that means. I you know, I at least you're honestly I if I've used it, I I I maybe I have. I guess I have. It sounds good. Yeah. It really impressive. It does sound impressive. It had I had I learned zero technology, so I don't know where that I don't know. They just throw fancy words on the title. Yeah. So um, yeah, if I could go back, I probably I I wouldn't have gone to a four-year college. And I I tell a lot of young guys, like, man, look at a trade school, because that's you'll always have a job if you're an electrician or plumber or carpenter or something. You're you're always gonna have work. Me, you know, I'm blessed, I've always found jobs, but I've always worked in uh factories, always worked in uh in plants and stuff, and and so that's the environment I'm used to. And I get that is what my degree's geared towards, you know, to kind of set you up to be a uh, you know, a um in a supervisory role in in any kind of manufacturing environment. So I I have I guess you could say used it, but uh it's weird you of all the places I've worked, I think all of just about all my immediate immediate managers didn't have a degree. And they just, you know, started young, worked their way up. And uh, you know, I think it'll not have a degree, it'll it'll cap you at some point, you know. There a lot most companies want you to get one eventually, but uh I don't know, I never wanted to be a CEO or anything. So but yeah, uh anyway, so I I went to uh went to SAU, got my degree, and uh while I was there, I was actually working in a uh steel mill in town. And I I worked there part-time all through college. And uh, you know, I worked with guys I grew up with, some of the guys, my buddies' dads, you know, it was one of the big uh employers. Yeah, yeah, in town. Yeah. So um I I worked there and it was come, you know, my my time in college was coming to an end. And uh I had one of the uh one of the guys sit me down, one of the managers, and he was like, hey, you know, what are you what are you thinking about after college? Because uh, you know, and they had done this with a handful of young guys uh who had worked out there through college. They had they had a crew that were college students, and they, I mean, we were a jack of all trades. We did pretty much everything nobody else wanted to do, mowing and weed eating, and and uh on the weekends we'd go in the mill and shovel up all the meal scale from the week. So it it I mean it was a tough job, but it was it you were we had fun. I was with other 19, 20 years, so 20-year-olds, and we were, you know, by the grace of God, we made it there at 7 o'clock in the morning on a Saturday morning to coming to work. Man, you talk about sweating. Had a bunch of chemicals flowing out of our pores, you know. Anyways, we we made it through, but yeah, I was coming to the end of my time in college and I was about to graduate, and so um they they kind of asked me, you know, what what did I think about staying on and and learning the meal, learning uh different positions and eventually working my way into possibly a supervisory role, you know. And I was like, man, you know, and I I I sat there and kind of thought about my my dad and my mom, you know, how they were so loyal to their jobs and everything. And and I I I don't know, something just kind of bugged me and it's like, man, if I don't leave town, I I'm you know, I'm gonna work here at this meal for I don't know how long, probably the rest of my life. I I know I will. I, you know, I mean, that's what I've seen growing up. I know that's what you're supposed to do. And um I at the same time, I was working with a guy who who had got out of high school, went into the army. He was actually a ranger, and uh he had done his time and got out and was now going back to college. And so he was working with us. And so he would tell us, uh, he got to telling us all these stories about going to Iraq and and stuff and all this crazy stuff. And, you know, it kind of, man, the more I would listen to him, I was getting kind of like, man, this is this military thing's kind of sounding exciting, you know. And and right out of high school, I was like, man, I didn't want to have nothing to do with it. It never crossed my mind to go. But the more I was listening to him and and the more I started thinking, like, man, you know, do I want to live here for the rest of my life? Or or do I at least want to, you know, see what else is in the world, you know. Um, I just I just started I I look back now and I say it really was a God-given desire. It really was, because it was just like this scratch. I I had to uh or uh itch, I had to scratch. And I uh so I was like, man, I I I've got to at least I I've got to check this out. And the longer I would ponder on it, it was like, you know, I know if I don't do this, when I get up to be an old man, I'm gonna really regret it. I just started, it it really started becoming a conviction to me. So uh one day I didn't tell any didn't tell a soul. Uh the closest recruiting station I knew of was in Texarkana. That was an hour away. That was my that was our main city we went to to go watch uh, which ain't much of a city, but we'd, you know, go to the movies or go uh Isn't there a song about Texarkana?
SPEAKER_06Or what is that?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, the the Smoking the Bandit. Oh, that's what is beer in Texas Arcana. Yeah, yeah, smoking the Bandit, yeah. So yeah.
SPEAKER_06And there was beer in Texarkana.
SPEAKER_02Uh yeah, there's beer there. Yeah. There you go. Yeah. So uh yeah, this is Border Town, Arkansas and Texas, border town. So uh that was, you know, biggest, I guess you could say, city closest to us. So, anyways, it was an hour away, and I drove over there one Saturday or something, and uh I remember in the they got a little mall. Most people wouldn't call it a mall, but it's mall to us. They had, I always remember you walk right in the door, and there's these four offices, you know, uh Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps. And uh I'd pondered around, I did a little bit of looking on the internet, and I I kind of came to the conclusion, like, you know, I think the Army is probably my best option, you know. They've got a lot of different jobs you could get into, you know, it sounds, you know, I I the uh like a safe bet, somebody might want to join. And uh so I drive all the way over there and The Army recruiter, he's not there. The office is closed. I mean, it's like midday on a Saturday, like prime time, you know? So I it was closed. And I'm like, what the heck? I'm not driving home. I'm not turning around right now. And so I stood back and I looked at the others and I was like, man, Air Force, like, man, they're weak. Like I did. Just being honest. Yeah. And I looked at the Navy and I was like, man, I don't know that I want to be stuck on a boat. I don't know if I can handle that. And I looked at the Marine Corps and I was like, man, these guys are nuts. And I was like, well, let me walk in. And uh I I I got I sat down with this recruiter and I swear he he started, he asked me just a couple questions, and he asked me, I can't remember what the question was. And he was like, man, do you you like a good challenge or something along those lines? And I just gave him a real vague response and I was like, oh yeah, what you know, just you know, I'm 22 years old at this time. I'm just him hawing. I don't know what how to answer him. And he's like, well, look, man, I'll go and tell you, dude, if you don't know what you're if you don't like to be challenged, if you, if you're not, you know, uh, if you don't think it's for you, man, I I'm gonna go ahead and tell you, this is it's not for you, man. And he started like putting his pen up and stuff, and I'm like, whoa, whoa, whoa. And I swear that was the smartest move. That that guy knew exactly what he was doing. Because I was like, no, man, I no, I'm tough, man. You know, I I don't know what I said, but I all of a sudden put the tough guy on. And I mean, he had me sold from then on. And and anyway, so uh I graduated college uh in 2011. Uh I took a I had to take like a summer class to graduate. So I graduated in the summer, and uh so I told the guys at the Steelman, I was like, look, yeah, I'm I'm not gonna stay on. I've I've I'm uh I'm enlisting in the Marine Corps. And so in uh October of 2011, I went to boot camp.
SPEAKER_06And so let me stop you before you get into boot camp. What what did your family think about that? Well, um Because we would have been 2011, so we were 10 years into the Afghanistan and all that, right?
SPEAKER_02Right. Yeah. And and so it it wasn't um it definitely wasn't over. There was still a lot, there was still stuff going on. Um I would say the the worst part of that, of Afghanistan at least, was definitely uh was definitely had kind of just finished, I would say. Um But you know, I I knew it was a possibility I'd be deployed. I I knew that. Uh it didn't really, I guess, necessarily bother me. And uh my mother, her uh like her great, her grandfather, one of her grandfathers was in World War II. Um her one of her uncles was uh a Marine in the Korean War. Um on her mom's side, everybody was all the men were military. Um my dad had my dad went in the military, but uh he had a couple brothers in. And so I don't know. My I'm sure my mom was extremely distraught internally, but you know, they did they didn't they weren't opposed to it at all.
SPEAKER_06They were supportive.
SPEAKER_02Right, right, right. So yeah, they weren't they weren't opposed to it at all. Um so you report to boot camp.
Boot Camp Breaks You Down
SPEAKER_02Right. So that was uh that was in October of uh 2011, and I went to so how the Marine Corps is, they have two places you go to to boot camp at, and Paris Island, South Carolina, or San Diego. Uh and so from what I understand, it the Mississippi River is the dividing line. So I lived on the the west side, so I went to San Diego. So I went to boot camp in the winter, but I'm in San Diego, so it was like sunny and 75 every day, you know. So it was uh, I mean, the weather was great, but uh yeah, I'll tell you, like boot camp, I I really, man, I to get ready, I was super nervous about the physical aspect. Super nervous. And so I would, man, I was hitting the gym. I was, I was running. Uh, that summer, you know, I'd get out there when it was, you know, it'd get pretty hot in South Arkansas, you know, and and you know, it hot and humid. It's gonna hit 100, 100, might hit 105 one day, you know. And uh uh I'd get out there and run in the heat of the day, just try, you know, I'm trying to get as tough as nails because I do not want to, you know, get out there and look like an idiot. And uh so I'm probably in the best shape of my life before I go to boot camp. Even even to this day, probably, because I was so nervous about not being in shape. And I uh I uh I get out there and I remember getting off the plane in San Diego. I get off the plane, it's like I don't know, seven, eight at night, it's it's dark. And I'm trying to figure out I I knew from my orders they're telling us like there's gonna be a bus that picks y'all up at the airport and go to go towards find the USO. Uh I don't know if you've ever seen those in the in the airports. Yeah. Those are veterans. Hey, go check out the USO in the airports because they're great. They're awesome. You know, there's always some nice old lady in there who's gonna like make you a sandwich. They're awesome for anyway. So actually I forget about the USO who's I hadn't been in one in years, but anyway, so I remember getting probably uh a hundred yards away from the USO, and I just start hearing. I'm like, what the heck is that? And I start I start getting closer and I see all these young dudes who are like have collar, we were supposed to have like a collared shirt on, I think, to to go. Um and I just see, you know, these 18-year-old dudes all of a sudden just looking around, looking just scared and running towards this uh noise, this noise, yeah, yeah. And so I'm like, dang, I think that's where I'm supposed to be. So I'm just like, I'm I'm like hurrying up too, you know, and man, I I thought I'd have a little time to chill and you know, catch my thoughts in the airport. No, man, I there's two like two, two or three drill instructors out there, and we're at the airport in front of God and everybody. I mean, just they're yelling. They're they're I mean, they're holding nothing back. They're asking, they're they're looking at your papers, your your orders and stuff, and and they're just you, you're they put you in a line, you know, and you're we stand there for God knows how long before everybody gets there, you know, they got they they're making sure everybody who is supposed to be there, they're checking off on a list, and they finally cram us on a some old school bus painted uh uh I can't remember, red and yellow. That's the Marine Corps colors. And so uh we get on the school bus and they make us ride from the airport to the uh to boot camp, the the Marine Corps deep recruit depot is what they call it. Uh and we have to hold our hold our heads down, you know. We can't look. We cannot look outside the windows, we can't look anywhere, we can't, it's like it's like they kidnapped us or something, you know. That's the way I felt. The mind games had started. Yeah, oh, it's it's and that was the thing. Once you get there, I I don't think for the first 48 hours you even sleep, you get a haircut, which is horrible. Uh tough the pain, most painful haircut I've ever had. They didn't care what's on your head, you know. And uh I mean, they're just handing you stuff, you're walking around with your uniforms, and you're just I mean, the obscenities are flying, you know, the just like I've never seen people so mad in my life. Uh just it really is the the full metal jacket. I I mean I mean, really, it it it's I would say even more intense than that. Really? I would say, yeah. It it like those those Marine Corps drill instructors, if anybody on earth is good at their job, it's them. They are they are extreme to the max. And they they don't slack up on you for that you're in boot camp for 13 weeks. They do not slack up at all. It's it never quits until the day you you leave.
SPEAKER_06And uh How'd you feel in that moment once you got in there and just it was just total chaos? Were you questioning why am I here?
SPEAKER_02Well, what's funny is uh I had one of my recruiters, he was like, Look, man, just which they're real cool with you. The recruiters are real slick. They're going to a joint. Oh yeah. They're real cool. And uh I remember one of them telling me, he was like, You look, man, when you get there, just remember, always remember, it's a game. They're just doing their job, but it's a game. Look, you're not gonna die. Just play the game. And so for the literally for the first two weeks, as crazy as it was, for the first two weeks, I was like, it's just a game. About about week three, I remember I was like, this is not a game. This was a bad decision. I don't know what I'm doing. I I don't, this was not a good idea. And uh, man, you what's funny is you'll get around a couple guys. I remember one guy in particular. I remember he was he was a little bit older. He was probably like 25, 26, and he was already married. And um he, man, I'd get around him in the few times you were able to actually, you know, chop it up with somebody and talk, he'd always talk about his wife and his back home. He can't wait to go back home because I think he was gonna be a uh a reservist. So he'd get get to go back home and do his you know weekend once a month. But he kept talking about home and home. And like after a couple weeks, I was like, man, I gotta, I gotta stay away from this guy because he's getting me depressed because I like I want to go home. I know it's a bad idea, man, but I'm we're stuck. You know, we can't go right now. And uh, but the as far as the So as the the physical aspect of it. Yes, it was the most physically demanding thing I'd ever done up until that point, but that's not what got me. It was the mental, uh the mental aspect of the whole thing. Um man, it was just so, so, so intense. And it they never let up. And it was so regimented, and there was and actually we you know what we did more than anything was practice drill. So marching and and what we call rifle manual, you know. Um, and we would march as a platoon and learn how to learn how to march and learn how to, you know, move our rifle and and and stand and be how to get inspected, get our rifle inspected, and and um I mean we did that constantly, constantly, constantly. If we were going to the chow hall to get a meal, we we we did drill on the way there. On the way back we did it. I mean it was constant. It was just and I mean at the core of it, they're teaching the discipline.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02And that's what it's all about. It's it's discipline and how to work as a team. And and that is what the core of it is. But you know, when you're like 22 and you're you're doing stupid stuff all day, all day, all day, all day. They're yelling, they're yelling, they're it's like you you're going nuts. I mean, you're you're you know, I know the thing that people say the Marines are brainwashed, but you know, I maybe we are. I I don't know. I don't know, because it was it was just so intense. So the the mental aspect of boot camp was was far more uh challenging than the physical, I would say.
SPEAKER_01Which is opposite of well, not opposite, but I was about to ask you how long it took you to get used to it. So to hear that like week three is when it got like really hard for you to like that's almost like I'd figure after like two weeks you might get you know kind of used to it. Okay, this is what's gonna happen. That they kept you on your toes and it got harder and harder and harder.
SPEAKER_02Right, yeah, yeah. And um it's funny, like we had uh we had three drill inst drill instructors in my platoon, and um my platoon was like 90. It was we had a couple dropout for whatever medical reasons or whatever. So it was I can't remember, it was like 92 or somewhere in that. So we had three in drilling three drill instructors over us. And uh so one uh um he's kind of like the dad of the group. Now he was, don't get me wrong, not a dad, but he he he was the least intense of all. He was in charge. So uh the other two guys, they were they were out to we call them kill hats. So one of them's all always he's just his purpose in life is to just screw with you. And that's what they did. Before you went to bed, as soon as you woke up. I mean, sometimes I mean you might have to take your whole bed, your sheets, chunk them across the room, you know, take your socks, underwear, chump them across the room. Everybody's got stuff laid off, laid everywhere, and then you have to go pick it up, and then he's counting down the whole time you're doing it. It's just, it's just so stupid, and it would just drive you so nuts.
SPEAKER_06Was there ever a time throughout that where your mentals shifted and you were like, okay, I got this. It's back to a game.
SPEAKER_02Well, I I I think, and this is uh what a lot of Marines will tell you, and uh you you you live life meal to meal. So food became the only thing you you like valued in life, and that was the only thing you got to look forward to. So you learn to live meal to meal. So, and then you you you eventually got to a countdown how many days you had left. And so that was just the only your only anchor, you know, was just like, all right, I got I got 34 days left. And all right, lunches in, you know, an hour and a half. I guess you were on such a strict schedule. Every day was almost the same as far as the schedule went. Like you, you were on such a I mean, it was so regimented. I mean, down to the minute, their whole day. And so uh and you were moving, you were moving like that. So a day went by pretty fast because you were just boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. And uh I I guess probably halfway through, I I eventually was like, all right, I'm not gonna die. I'm gonna make it through it. Um I hate it, but all right, let's go, let's let's we got lunch to look forward to. All right, we got supper to look forward to. And so, and I was surprised actually, you you ate three mil, they made you eat. You ate three square meals a day. And uh I you you don't think that actually. You always hear like, oh, you're not gonna eat, you're not gonna drink water, you're gonna be, you know, almost dead. No, they actually uh I drank more water in boot camp than I ever have, probably. I mean, I drank more water in three months than I have in the last 15 years, probably. I don't I I mean they've made you pound water.
SPEAKER_06Well, I think the important thing, what you just said, and and you know, I think our our military does a good job with that is you have to get to a point, you even in your daily life, where you know, everybody sets goals, everybody wants to achieve those goals, but when you do hard things, you got to break it down to sometimes hour by hour, right? And and looking forward to, okay, I got lunch coming.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna get to lunch, and then I'm gonna do my afternoon, and then I'm gonna get to dinner. Right. I'm gonna get a break. And then we're gonna go into the night and it's gonna suck, and I'm gonna go through hell. I'm gonna sleep, and then I'm gonna have breakfast and I'm gonna get a little reprieve. I think it's important for people to understand, and and again, I think the military does a good job of forcing you to break it down into that simple. You know, even though you're doing a, I got 30 days left or whatever it is, really, the only way you can get through it is to think about I just gotta make to lunch.
SPEAKER_03Right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06And I think that's an important, an important piece that a lot of people miss, whether they're starting a diet or a routine or whatever it is, you know, they think about the big picture down the road. They just gotta focus on what's next. Yeah. What's next? So that's that's a good point.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. I didn't mean to make that point, but it's a good thing. Yeah, you did.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, the Marines made it for you. Yes.
SPEAKER_02So you eventually make it through boot camp. Right. Yep. So uh, like I said, that was that was 13 weeks. And um, so my MOS uh military occupational specialty or my job in the Marine Corps was uh uh a 1371 combat engineer. And so I took that job. The recruiter talked me into that, you know, because engineers in the Marine Corps I thought were kind of like uh, if you ever heard of the Navy, Navy CBs, like they're the kind of jack of all trades. They're the they're the guys who are, you know, out there doing construction. Uh they're, you know, they're building bridges, yeah, exactly. So I was like, man, you know, this is a smart move. You know, everybody, every every 18-year-old's a gung-ho. Uh give me a rifle. I want to be a grunt, you know. And so I was just a little bit older. I was, like I said, I was 22 when I went in. And uh, and that did make a huge difference when I was in boot camp, actually, because most of my kids were right out of high school, 18. And uh, you could tell, I could tell a huge difference in the maturity level, just four years. But so I was like, all right, let me come to my senses, let me try to get a job that I can maybe take into the real world when I get out. And uh so I picked engineers. I was like, man, I'll I'll probably be doing construction or something, building runways, you know. That was kind of their their their deal. Um but no, um I I didn't build anything hardly, I think. So when I you get out of boot camp, you go to uh um what they called MCT. I went back out to San Diego, actually Camp Pendleton, California, uh, for a month. That was Marine, marine combat training. So it was just like a month long uh you're just you're hiking. It was it was pretty physic it was actually more physically intense in boot camp because of the hikes. Because we were out Camp Pendleton, it's kind of almost mountains. And so, I mean, we were hiking. It was uh it was pretty tough. And you're carrying like 90 pounds on your back, rifle, you know. Um, so it was pretty, pretty tough there. But uh so I go do that, and then I I my my school, my MOS school was in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina. And so uh flew over there. That was I spent like, I don't know, I can't remember, a couple months doing school, and we learned all kinds of stuff. But the how it works in the Marine Corps, what you will, as far as an engineer goes, what you'll be doing specifically just depends on what unit you go to. So uh we had engineer um battalions or engineer uh companies or whatever, but each company had its own purpose. So um I got uh stationed there at Camp Lejeune and I got orders to 2nd Combat Engineer Battalion. And so in we called it CEB, Combat Engineer Battalion. CEB was attached to uh, or mine was to the 2nd Marine Division. So when we talk about a Marine Division, we're talking about the infantry. And so uh we were uh attached to our purpose in life, my battalion's purpose in delight in life was to support the infantry. And so what I did specifically in my company, I was in uh mobility assault company. Um we did route clearance. So what that was is a glorified uh term for we looked for the IDs. So um we were we were you we weren't on foot, we were mounted. So what I fell into was I drove this vehicle. I just kind of my platoon sergeant told me, you're driving this. He just told me one day, and so that's just what I did for the rest of my Ring Corps career, you know, for four years. And uh I drove this vehicle called the Buffalo. So what the Buffalo does is uh it has this, it's a it's a beast of a vehicle. And uh what it has, it's got this uh hydraulic arm on it that'll swing out. And if we think we found something, uh it's got like a it had like a scoop on it, almost like a big fork on it, then it had a big long knife on the end, it had a rotating head, had a uh high pressure air hose on. It. We had a camera on it. And so if we thought we found something, I'd be the guy to, you know, my vehicle would dig around, try to dig it up. And so that's what I fell into. That's uh that became my baby, you know. I learned uh tried to learn everything about that. Um I I drove, I really just drove it, uh, which I'll get into this later in my first deployment. And then I I kind of handled everything on my second deployment. But um yeah, so that that was my uh that's what I got into route clearance. I did I didn't know construction. Uh I went from what I thought was a pretty safe bet to probably one of the more dangerous things you could do.
Combat Engineer Life And Faith Drift
SPEAKER_06Where was your faith at at this time?
SPEAKER_02Well, okay, so going back to like growing up, you know, I grew up in church. I grew up, you know, my dad was Christian home, my mom Christian home. Uh, you know, both everybody in my family on both sides. I I really don't know anybody who wasn't uh a Christian. I I really don't. Um and and everybody went to church. Um it was a, you know, that was part of life. That was just that was a non-negotiable. And so growing up, I remember probably, you know, and I I I hate I don't remember the age. Everybody seems like they can remember their age. I don't know, but I remember the, I remember the place. I can take you to the building, I can take you to probably the same pew. I don't even think it's a church anymore uh where I was at, but uh I can tell you when I got saved, you know. I I know I remember the uh the change. And so probably 12, 11 or 12, I got saved, and and uh, you know, I I felt like as a as a boy, you know, I felt uh I knew I was different. I knew I knew God and um I knew what it meant to be saved. And I understand I you know I grew up in Sunday school and I grew up hearing these things. They were and they were in the home too, it wasn't just church. And so I get to high school and um you know, probably about my senior year, I start drinking a little bit. And so I I that kind of get into college and that kind of grew. So college, by the time college comes around, you know, I'm I'm partying all the time. I'm I'm I'm I I drink quite a bit, you know. And uh if you get in the Marine Corps, uh if you're not a uh if you don't know how to drink, you know, you'll learn. And and you'll you will perfect the art of dr of drinking in the Marine Corps. Because that that is that is one thing they'll teach you to do. So uh yeah, I I wouldn't it's kind of weird. I look back and sometimes used to a couple years ago, I would have said, I I think I was just completely lost. And uh I look back now, I kind of think I changed, I changed my beliefs on on where I was at. I I think you can backslide and and fall away from God, but I think it uh it's almost next to impossible to to I mean you'd you'd have to make a conscious decision and actually still believe in God and and say within your heart, no, I don't want nothing to do with you anymore. I think that's the only way you could you could lose your salvation. Now, I know a lot of people, I I don't want to argue, I I don't have enough theological uh, you know, I hadn't studied it out enough to just stand so firm on that I'd get an argument. But looking at my life, uh some of the things that happened to me while I was on deployment and uh, you know, after getting out of the Marine Corps, I would say uh, yeah, I was I was still his. I just was I was just that prodigal son, you know. And um so as far as when I was in the Marine Corps, where my faith was, it was as as weak as it's ever been. So uh I definitely and while I was in four years of the Marine Corps, the only times I I probably went to church, man, probably ten times, maybe, I hope. And uh so I was I I just I wasn't in prayer. I wasn't in, I kept my Bible around, you know, just uh I felt like it was, you know, I guess it was yeah, it was probably more of a superstition than it was actual faith, you know. And it wasn't like I was reading it. But uh there were a few times I'd get in pretty intense situations and I um you know I'd get into fear and uh I I would definitely I'd I'd start praying then because that's what I knew to do. And uh so I'll probably get into it a little further here in a little bit. But uh, you know, there's a couple times I I did, you know, I think God definitely showed up for me and I definitely cried out to him. So but in general, my I was just and I was I was just backslid.
SPEAKER_01You talk about that though, with boot camp, you know, you talk about how it's so strict and like so, you know, everything's always planned out and it's you know, living to the next meal and stuff. Is there it there's probably no time really to you know be in the in the word and stuff like that, right? Yeah, be like during boot camp part.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, not actually being in the word. I mean, I I I don't ever remember. We always I always did carry this little, they gave you these little uh you know the little Gideon Bibles. Yeah. Um I always had one of them. Um I'd carry it they because they allowed you to carry, there was only like a couple things they allowed you to actually carry in your pockets, and that was one of them. And so uh and actually they suggested that you have one once we got on the rifle range. It's kind of weird, because we we had these front pockets on our on our uniforms, and they suggested to have a little bible right there. They, you know, to help you like a pad almost. Well, actually to to to set the butt of your your rifle on because it was just a good support. So they so that's what you see a lot of guys doing. They'd put a uh they put one of them little Bibles in their front pocket because it kind of would just set the the the bottom part of the butt of your rifle right on it, and it would just kind of help you steady it, you know. It was just so, you know, anyway.
SPEAKER_06So I think the point and the re the reason I ask is obviously because we talked and I I know know your story, and I think it's important for people to hear that, you know, no matter what happens in your life, and you become saved at a young age, and and you know, that seed was planted early on from your family, and uh, you know, we fall away sometimes. Right. Um, but he's always beside us.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_06And I think that comes to fruition here later for you. So so you you've got your assignments, you you're you're gonna be diffusing IEDs, um, you're kind of perfecting the um what's it called? What's the machine that you're driving? The buffalo. The buffalo. Uh, you know, you're you're figuring that machine out, and then then the call comes for your first deployment.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_06Talk about that.
SPEAKER_02So, yeah, when I get to my when I get to my unit, uh, actually like first day checking in, uh looking back, I can kind of see God's favor on my life. It's just weird. Some little things will happen. And uh, I'm checking in and check in with our first sergeant of our company. And I'm in uh what we call our pickle suit. We have a green, uh, it'd be more like our business suit. It's not the the blues, not the really fancy, but the uh our green uh suit that we wear. You check into your unit anytime. That's that's what you check in with, and you're you're trying to look as perfect as you can because you're gonna get nitpicked and it's gonna be a terrible day checking into your unit. And so, anyways, that's what I did, and I remember checking in with first sergeant, first sergeant Jones, Lee C. Jones. Uh he was uh a black man, bald headed, previously uh drill instructor. Man, this guy was just chisel, chiseled, just like a you know, just a piece of granite. Man. And and he was uh he just still had that that uh drill instructor demeanor. His uniform was impeccable and uh intimidating. And he's we're checking in and he he's it's like four of us, and he's going down, uh asking each one of us a question or something, and he gets to me and uh oh, he's asking everybody where we're from. And about the time he gets to the second dude, just like out of the corner of my eye, I see this, you know, those pennants, like the baseball team. I see this pennant, and it's this and it's Arkansas Razorbacks. I'm like, oh my God. Just like, yeah, I'm peeps to it. Thank God, man. And so he gets to me, I'm like the last guy, and he's like, So, so where are you from, Hutchinson? I said, I'm you know, I'm from I'm from Arkansas first time. He said, Well, all right. I'm I'm from Arkansas too. All right. And he kind of like kind of cooled down, you know, I was like, man, this is this is like could be my one saving grace. Maybe my life won't completely suck. But uh he told us right off the bat, right after that, he said, he just looked at us and he's like, you know, we're going to Afghanistan. He said, so you better get ready. Go ahead and tell your families, you know, you you go ahead and get your mind right, you know, because here in a couple months we're going to California to to do our workup training. And uh I think I got to my unit in like probably about this time, like May. And uh I was gonna be uh, yeah, we went to Af I went to Afghanistan in like September. Uh hadn't even been in the Marine Corps a whole year. And so, yeah, so he tells us that, and um I I'd kind of heard you you hear rumors like of units you're when you're in the Marine Corps, you kind of it's just like any other organization. You the you know, rumors are flying, you know, birdies are flying, you know, and and uh so I'd heard that at least some of my battalion was gone. And so I knew there was a chance, and I was still like, man, I don't know, we'll see. So he told us, and so I was halfway prepared to hear it. And so I was like, ah man, okay. Well, this is what I signed up for. Because uh, and I was part of me is glad because at that time at least, when you get in the Marine Corps, when you get around, when you finally get to your unit, if you hadn't deployed, you ain't nobody. You are you're a boot, and you'll be a boot until you that's what we call, that's just you know, the lowest guy, you know, the that's what we call people a boot. So when you're older, if you've been in the Marine Corps 10 years and some you're about to get you get an argument, somebody calls you a boot, that's Vitan words. Like it's serious. And so uh so I'm a boot. And um, so I anyways, I I kind of I was kind of halfway happy because I was like, all right, well, I get to deploy, and so I won't be a boot forever, you know. And uh so later on I found out, you know, in my specific unit, like, you know, it's it's one thing to to not have been deployed, but but if you're really cool in in my unit, it you've got blown up. So that was the tier three, you know, like boot, you know, you've been deployed and then you've been blown up. You've been blown up. So it's like, man, do I want to join that club or not? I don't know. Because, you know, you had these guys who've been on a couple deployments and they're just treating you like dog crap, but you know, they're also talking of you hear them telling their war stories and you're just like, man, man, will I ever do that? Do I want to do that? I don't know. I just the only reason I'd want to do that, just so I could come back and hold my head high around the place, you know. And so anyway, so I so I I was kind of excited and just for the fact of, okay, I'll get to do this, I'll get to do what I signed up to do. Um, but then it's like, all right, I gotta tell my mom. And so I don't know how long I waited. I I probably waited a couple weeks because I was just scared to call home, you know. So I remember calling one night and I just was talking to my mom. I was like, well, I gotta tell you something, you know. And uh said, I'm I'm going to Afghanistan. And uh I just remember the phone being silent for like I don't know how long, you know. So I can see my mom's face right now, though. And anytime she's about to cry, she's just like, she just she won't make a noise, but she'll just be like for for like, I don't know, 30 seconds before any noise comes out. Yeah. So I just knew that's what she was doing. And so uh, anyways, she I I guess she got she took it well enough, you know, and um so I think uh yeah, we went out to California. Uh 29 Palms, California, it's the desert out there, but that's kind of for the lab, probably the Iraq, Afghanistan that um phase in the last 20 years or so. That's where uh every unit would go out and do their workup uh just because it's similar terrain, it's hot, um, desert, you know, a lot of ranges out there, a lot of open, open desert. And uh so we went out there for like a month, and like I said, by September, I was in we say in country. I was in Afghanistan.
Afghanistan Reality In Helmand
SPEAKER_02So I was at uh in Helmand Province, which is in the southern part of Afghanistan. It borders uh um, yeah, I guess we bordered Pakistan on the south, uh, not real far from Iran. Um so I was uh Camp Leatherneck was one of the big, big bases. So uh I don't think a lot of people know how it was kind of set up over there. There was uh I never went to Iraq, but I knew it was kind of from hearing from other guys, it's kind of set up the same. But uh in Afghanistan, there was like three or four major, major bases. I know you probably heard of Bagram. That was the big Air Force. Yeah, that was the big uh, you know, Biden and his deal, you know.
SPEAKER_06Point everybody.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. That was a kind of a bad deal. That was at Bagram. That was kind of up north. That was kind of close to uh uh um oh golly, what's the capital? I already forgot. I know it.
unknownOh gosh.
SPEAKER_06Ben is our um I should know this.
SPEAKER_01We're in trouble. Anyways, it doesn't matter. It was up north.
SPEAKER_06What was the temperature like there? Not not like how did it feel, but what was the temperature, the setting of the war at that time?
SPEAKER_02Um, well, it it took a while to get a feel, honestly. Uh it when I my first deployment, it was uh it wasn't too crazy. And and I'll tell you, I'll say this too. It made a difference in the winter and in the summer. It really did. Uh my first deployment, I went from like September. We did seven month, seven-month deployments. I went from September to like, I guess it would have been May. And um it wasn't too crazy, wasn't too wild. But so kind of how it would work is you might go um two weeks and just absolutely nothing would happen. They're just driving around. And and so it was real easy to get complacent, and then all of a sudden, boom, you know, something something would go off, you know. Normally, in our case, normally it was you'd find or or hid an IED. And so um it wasn't too wild. Um we did go on a couple really big missions. They would put together, put together, they were looking for maybe like a high profile guy, or they knew there was this uh, you know, a lot of times they would find where they're actually making IEDs or actually, you know, they'd use fertilizer. That was their main ammonium nitrate fertilizer. That's what they would make nine times out of ten, that's what they make the their actual charge out of. And so they'd they'd find a little kitchen, you know, what we call it, or whatever. And um normally we would uh our part, we'd they'd put together a big mission and we'd drive uh the grunts up to it and they'd make their hit or whatever, and we'd kind of guide them on the way out or pull security while they're going in there, kicking, kicking indoors or whatever. And so uh only problem was we were the guys who are in huge vehicles and stuck out like a sore thumb and couldn't hide from anybody. So we're the ones they were trying to mortar and stuff, you know.
SPEAKER_06We're was there ever any close calls on that first deployment?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so uh I guess I can get into this. Uh uh actually, right out the gate, my first time, what we say out outside the wire. So when you get off of a base, you're outside the wire. That's our terminology. So my first time outside the wire, we had uh this is what's funny. About a month before I deployed, I was home on uh, they give you a big chunk of leave to go home before you deploy. And uh so I was home for a couple weeks, and I'm watching the news, and I knew where I was going. I knew at least I was going to Camp Leatherneck. I'm watching the news, and this these guys had uh like somehow got a halt of like uh either British or Marine Corps uniforms, these these Taliban, and uh they got onto the runway there, they climbed over a fence, got on the runway, and started shooting a place up, and they started RPGing. Actually, it was financially it was one of the biggest losses, single, you know, in one single go, biggest financial losses in the whole, you know, Afghan or Iraqi uh campaigns because they they they I don't know, man, they RPG'd, they destroyed like three hair jets, uh, a couple helicopters. Like, yeah, they can't, I mean, they all got eventually got shot and you know, uh took out, but uh, but while they were still gunning, you know, they did a lot of financial damage. And uh so I'm watching that on the news and I'm like, dang, that's where I'm going. So when I get there like a month and a half later or something, the first thing on our plate was they put together this huge mission to go track these wherever they, these guys who did this and where they planned it, and and you know, wherever they their home base was, they they had got all the intel, they knew where they were at, and they were gonna go make this huge raid. And so uh we went, that was my first thing. And uh I remember driving for like we literally drove, I think it was 23 hours straight to go get to this place. And we drove the one thing we would didn't want to do was drive at night because we had technology to look for IEDs, but man, our eyes were the best piece of equipment we had. What are you looking for like when you look for those? So actually, so how it was set up, like I was in this Buffalo, and so I had this, you know, arm that could dig and stuff, but actually at the very front we had uh two vehicles we called Huskies, and they were single-man vehicles, and they were uh and they were literally made to be blown up. And uh they were like a three-part, they were like a cab and two, we called them mods, but they were like a front axle, a back axle, and they were made to, if it got blown up, they were it was made to like blow into three pieces and uh to take the brunt of the force off the cab, and the bottom of the cab was just like a V, you know. And so, I mean, they could take a hit really, really well. So you were, I mean, you kind of pretty safe in them. But on the front, they had what we call GPR, ground penetrating radar, and it's these big panels. Uh, and so the driver would have this screen and it would look like a uh uh oh, what's the thing where you look at I can't ever remember this. So you're looking at a baby. Ultra ultrasound, that's what it looked like. So it looked like an ultrasound screen, and so they could see like, you know, more or less shapes. So they could see like if there was a big rock in the road or something, they could see this shape. So if you saw something that was like had clean edges, perfectly square or something, like okay, you know, stop. Yeah. And so they'd stop, you know, chunk a piece of a water bottle or something out there, say, you know, dig right here. You know, and they would pull off to the side, back up, pull off the side, let us pull up and we'd start digging. And so that was kind of how our that was our routine. We also had we always carried uh EOD with us, the explosive ordinance disposal. So I wasn't actually a guy cutting the wires and stuff. Uh we did a l we d a little training on that, uh, but we had EOD with us. And so if we actually did pull something out of the ground, uh they would come up and they would uh and actually it's kind of weird, I didn't know this until I got over there. A lot of their work is actually investigative. They would take samples of the actual explosive, they would get, they would all the components they could get that, you know, wouldn't blow up, they would take and they would go back and get fingerprints, and uh, you know, they would get all the info they could, and they would track, you know, they'd figure out who's making these things. They could actually it's just like a murder case almost. And um, so we always had those guys with us and um where I got off track. Where where were we going with this?
SPEAKER_06He was asking how how you how you would identify.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. So yeah. Because like how how big are they?
SPEAKER_02Oh, well, uh they get or does it all depend. They get bigger. I remember so a typical one that over in the Middle East, they they they sell these uh jug, these yellow jugs of cooking oil. I don't know if it's canola oil or whatever it is, but there's these yellow jugs and they're the size of like a maybe like a, you know, those like two, two-gallon gas tanks, maybe not five-gallon, but they're about that size. And uh it was just a plastic jug, kind of kind of squarish. And uh that was their number one container. And so they'd pack that thing full of explosive, and uh typically we wouldn't find that. We would find uh um the what we call a pressure plate. So they'd take two pieces, maybe like one before or something, and they'd kind of put a little shim on the ends where there's a space, and uh they'd put two wires kind of you know um opposite direction each other, anyways. So, and they would have a wire coming out to it, they'd have it uh hooked up to a battery, normally a couple of double A's or something, just enough to give a little charge to a to uh normally a homemade blasting cap or something that was sitting in the actual charge. And anyways, so that that pressure plate was the number one thing we'd see. We'd see like uh most of the time they'd see like a you know piece of wood or something in the ground. Uh and sometimes actually those those huskies that drove up front, they always had these rakes on the back. So it was like they were, you know, they wasn't discs, it was that like it it almost was like disc in a field out here or something, but they had just little, just little steel prongs. Yeah. And uh we couple times we we would just accidentally just rake up one of these uh pressure plates. It's like whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, it you know, if you got to see that, everybody's like, stop, everybody, stop, stop what you're doing. And so uh so then you start digging. So um that's what we got. We got to, you you had to figure out what you were looking looking for. You had to figure out what their norm was. And um, most of the time it was that. It was the pressure plate. And so um, I remember one time the first one I ever found uh is actually on that first mission I went out
How We Find IEDs
SPEAKER_02on. Um, I mean, there was a it was actually like a radio controlled uh had a you know radio controlled device on it. Actually, I think it was set up for like somebody with the garage door opener. They use that a lot. They had some kind of little transmitter, the same, I the same thing you'd use to open your garage door, I guess the remote and the transmitter. And uh so they would wait, somebody's actually over there physically waiting on you to drive by. And I remember uh at first mission, I just I was driving and I was so the only thing that that the only way I found is because I was just so scared, so nervous. I I just happened to see this little wire. I mean, it couldn't have been an inch sticking out of the the sand, and I just had four vehicles always had already drove in front of me, and I see this little wire sticking up, and I'm like, you know, I'm like, man, there's a wire. There's a wire. And so uh it's little stuff like that. But but as time went on, you would get uh norm, we stayed in the same uh area, and we would normally, normally go down the same routes, and you would uh you'd you'd go up and down them so often you would notice what was there the last time and what wasn't. And so if you saw something funny that wasn't there, you're you know, now you're on high alert. And you'd always see these rock stacks. They would, a lot of times they, these guys, the Taliban, they would, they would, they're looking for us. You know, they're trying to, the IDs are targeted toward us. And so the locals, whether they were really sympathetic to the Taliban or not, you know, I you'd never I just assumed everybody was. I think most of them were actually just kind of neutral. They want to just be left alone, they're like normal people. But uh, nevertheless, the Taliban would, you know, they would have signs, and they, you know, these people knew what to look for when they're the Taliban had planted one. So the Taliban might plant one here in the road, and then, you know, 20 feet off the side, they'd have a little rock stack or something, or there'd be some kind of uh would that be a sign for the people? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Not for us. Right. But we would figure it out eventually, you know. So uh it would at least we would, we, we began to know what to look for. And uh so when we'd see something like that, especially something new, if we didn't see it, you you know, we there was a lot of rock stacks, but after going up on route four or five, six times, you you and you're on high alert the whole time, you you recognize them, you know where they're at. So if there's a new one, you're like, oh god. So you start looking. Um so that was kind of you know, I I'd like to say we we the the technology we had was really helping us, but I uh man, I didn't trust anything but my eyes, honestly. Uh and my kind of intuition, you know. Uh so intuition kind of played, I would say played a lot of a big part. So uh so as far as uh close calls, um I remember that first appointment I got there in uh September. Um by February, um we had this big mission. And um the actually special operations guys, the we called Marsock at the time. I think they took the name Raiders, but the Marine Corps special operations uh teams, they had been in this compound and they were trying to uh kind of win over this little neighborhood or something. Well, they had uh pretty much got to where they couldn't leave their compound uh in this certain area, you know, that we had never been to, never drove to, and they had pretty much got pinned down. They just couldn't leave. And they were pretty much having to, they were every evening they were getting mortared or getting shot at. And so they were just they just lived in their little uh, you know, their little house. I mean, it had been uh, you know, bunkered in. It was it was uh wasn't like they were in super high threat. They they had cover, uh, they had a place to live, but uh they'd been there for a couple months and just couldn't without being able to. I think at night a helicopter would come in, give them, you know, resupply them or something. But they couldn't physically couldn't leave. Um, so they the problem was it was down by a river and there was this humongous cliff right above it. And then the river. And then there's where the compound ended. And it's just not it wasn't no easy way to get there to drive in or anything. Um so they put together this huge mission, and um uh first thing we did, uh, we man, we were taking man, tanks. You know, we had M1A1 Abrams at the time. The Marine Corps just got rid of those, which is I hate that, but because that's hey, those tanks, those Abrams, that's the king of the jungle. I'm telling you. That gun they have, that's a that might that's a bad, that's a bad machine right there. And those things will move. I don't know how fast they'll go, but they'll probably do 50. I don't know, 50 or 60. They can move. But anyways, so we had tanks. We, I mean, we had everybody come out because we the point was we were gonna have this all-out shootout and give these guys cover and so we could drive down there, get all their junk and drive them out and you know, say good rennants with the place. And so um, I remember we we were driving everybody up to this cliff, and you know, we were having uh my platoon is kind of leading the way, and I mean we I think we we found one, and then somebody behind me actually took a hit with IED, and then we finally get settled in, get these tanks, and everybody up on the edge of this cliff, get the grunts set in. And so I remember we waited there one night, then we drove back the next morning. Uh no, no, no, no, we drove back anyways. We were driving back the next night, I think. So, anyways, what'll what'll happen a lot of times if you go down a route to a kind of a dangerous spot, like a random, not a road, but uh you make your own route, what'll happen a lot of times, they'll back, we say back lay us. So they typically know we're gonna take our same route back. Um, and so they'll just plant an ID right in our own tracks. And well, and specifically they they'll put you in a, you know, they'll put them in a pinch point where they know like like there was a what we called a waddy, which is a dry creek bed. There was a one spot to go through this thing, just one. So, anyways, we're driving back at driving back one night, and uh they had back laid us. We had just found an ID, we dug it up, got rid of it, and so we get up to this happen to be what I'm talking about, this dry creek bed, and there's one spot to cross it. And uh my huskies go through, it's nighttime, and I'm already hating it. So uh back to the intuition thing. Man, for some reason, I was like, ah this is something's not right. Man, something like I'm on edge. I am on edge. And um I knew something wasn't something wasn't jiving. And so the first two, three vehicles go through go go through this thing, it's just a kind of re real steep downgrade and right back up. But uh it's the only spot you could go. And um so a couple vehicles go through, and just the way this little spot was, I kind of had to get out of their tracks. And because of my vehicle's real top heavy, and I need to be on a real flat surface, I can't I can't take grades, a steep grade on one or either side. And so uh I had to go a little bit to the left, and what we did, we had a bulldozer, we had bulldozers with us, and uh, we had a bulldozer just go down this hill and we just just to plow up the surface level of the dirt, just you know, because we would do that sometimes. We just send a bulldozer in front of us if we on the rare occasion we had one. And they're pretty safe. They would just, I mean, they're just plowing, they're digging up. I'd see them, they'd dig up, and the ID would just come off to the just plowed out to the side. And so we had one. We called him to come up, and he he drove uh, he's driving down this hill. I remember I remember looking at my window and he's driving, driving right beside me, and he's going down this hill, and I I'm looking at his blade, and because he's going downhill, his blade wasn't breaking the surface of the of the ground because it's kind of such a steep downgrade. And I'm like, dang. Whatever. I guess I'll be okay, you know. But I'm still on edge, and that bulldozer goes in front of me and comes out the other side, and so I just kind of pull in behind him and uh and I'm just driving. I'm just like, so I'll tell you, back to the back to the faith part. I guess let me hold for one second. So before I went on the deployment, my mom, I don't know where she got this, some group of ladies who prayed for uh our troops. They what one thing they did, they uh they took these little cloths and they'd they'd pray over them. And they would say, you know, hand this to your son, you know, and you know, we've prayed over this cloth, and this is uh, you know, just give it to him and this is, you know.
SPEAKER_06This will protect them.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, protect them. Right. And uh so and I didn't get to, I don't believe like obviously this isn't God or anything, but yeah, this right here, I I kept this on in my flak jacket, right? We had a little pocket right there, and I always kept it right there. And uh I remember uh specifically that night when I was about to start driving, I took that thing out and I just started like rubbing it. I mean, I I was just like, I mean, I just because I was so nervous, I was so, I was like, something's about to happen. And this, I was like, I just knew it. And I'm just rubbing this thing. I'm like, and I I didn't know, I just wasn't, wasn't grounded in my faith anymore. And then and all I knew to do was I had this, and so I knew I this was my connection with God, or I knew I'd been, I know I knew I had prayers over me, I guess. And all I knew, I I didn't, it's like I just didn't know what to say, and I just started saying, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus. And I was just, man, I if the static electricity on this, I guarantee I could have jumped a car off. I was rubbing it so hard because I was just so, I was so nervous. And uh, and I was just saying, Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, and I was just creeping along and just all of a sudden, bah.
The Night The Buffalo Hit
SPEAKER_02I mean, I just remember seeing a light, and I was, and I first thought I was like, was that, you know, did I get struck by lightning? Or maybe that I figured maybe that's what that that experience is like. And uh, so I'm like, you know, a few seconds, it it kind of just threw me into my steering wheel. I remember that, and uh I remember the vehicle shut off, and actually it was because uh I had a didn't have a key to start, I had a toggle switch start, and it's right in front of my knee. And so I think it threw me forward and my knee hit the the toggle switch and cut the vehicle off. But uh yeah, I so I ran one over and it was right uh underneath my feet, like my front wheel. Just, I mean, it of course it's nighttime, I couldn't see at the time, but it threw it probably, I don't know, like 60 yards or something out there. And we're talking about a wheel that's you know, shoulder high on me. And so um I finally kind of come to my senses after 30 seconds or so, and I'm like, all right, I I I hit IED. And so for some reason I'm like, I started counting my fingers. I was like, one, two, three. I saw, I guess, uh, all right, I got all my fingers. I I don't know. And uh, and I just remember smoking our cab, and I had actually my platoon sergeant, Gunny Brown, and and uh Corporal Lake, two other guys behind me, and you know, in in the same vehicle. And I remember I finally was just like, are y'all okay? You know, it like I finally thought to like, all right, check on these guys, and they're just like, you know, I probably couldn't say what they said, but uh my uh pursuit sergeant Gunny Brown, he's from West Virginia, and he was uh he was an animated. I love I love that man. Love the man. He uh thank God for him, but uh he was pretty animated. So uh I remember it kind of came to my senses there's smoke, and uh, you know, we say whatever, and uh remember Gunny Brown walks up, he he finally walks up, and he, I mean, he just slams me on my Kevlar on my helm helmet, and he's just like, Welcome to the club, you know. Both of them had already been deployed, they'd uh they had already been blown up before. And so, you know, I I guess I was in the club now, you know. And so uh, so yeah, I I definitely, man, God, I I just know God came through for me that night. And uh so what what's so crazy about that story is that it didn't really end there. So it's nighttime, and uh we weren't gonna move any further. We weren't gonna try to recover this vehicle and get it pulled out or anything uh at night. So us three, we pack up and we we get out. Actually, how you get on my vehicle is you climb up a ladder on the on the back. And so we climbed down and went to another vehicle for the night and crammed in, and that's where we stayed for the night, slept for the night. And uh so the next morning, right at uh dust, one of the EOD guys, he gets out and he's like, Hey, before we do anything, I'm gonna just I'm gonna make another round. I'm gonna get my mind detector. And uh he had a, you know, we all had these metal detectors, mind detectors. He said, I'm gonna make another round and just take another look. Because honestly, most of our rule of thumb was where there's one, there's two. And that's just how they that's how they worked, that's how they operated because they know we're not gonna leave a vehicle there. They know we're gonna be walking, we've got to walk around a little bit. And so that was their ultimate goal is to, you know, may not kill anybody with inside your vehicle when you get out walking around and working and people have to be on the ground, then we're gonna get you, you know, with this secondary. And so he's walking, he makes a loop around and is looking for uh what we call secondaries. And uh I hear him come over the radio, he's like, hey, I got some wires. And this guy, he finds another IED literally right at the bottom of our steps.
SPEAKER_06Or you'd step down the night.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, right there. And it's and so it me it's just like this something came over me, and I'm like, oh my God. Oh my god. Man. Like what are, you know, the it's you know, so I you know, I'm thinking like the miracles last night, you know. I'm saying, you know, I'm fine, I took a hit and I'm fine, but when you find out you just stepped all over one and it didn't go off for whatever reason, you're like, man.
SPEAKER_06And and not just one of you, I mean all three of you. Right, right.
SPEAKER_02And I'm not, and I'm talking, and and sometimes they would make them with a little could handle a little more pressure. So, because they were targeting a vehicle. But you got to think like, and I had all my gear, you know, I I've got, I had my weapon, I had a bunch of ammo. I'm I'm carrying, you know, I don't, I'm, I'm probably weighing over well over 300 pounds myself and all my junk. And those two guys were way bigger than me. And we're stomping all over. We're not thinking, we're thinking we're safe right there. And so, yeah, just just a miracle. And uh thank God, thank God, because uh, you know, I we that was our biggest, that's our biggest fear, you know, because other guys before me actually, actually, I remember this out of Gunny Brown, he the who rode with me in my opportunity sergeant, he was so hard on me about not getting out of the vehicle. Like when we stopped, sometimes, man, I had to take a leak, you know, and I wanted to just hop out. Let me just step right here and take a look. And he was like, you know, no, use a bottle. No, you're not getting out. And so I'm like, man, why is what's his deal? Why can't I just step right here? But uh, you know, a few months into the deployment and get to talking and everything and come to find out his uh One of his previous deployments, uh, one of his guys had actually stepped on one. And so, you know, a few of his few of his guys in his platoon had to go around and pick up uh pieces. And so after that, I was like, well, I get it. You know. So yeah, I look back and man, that that man, no matter how he actually treated me face to face, that man took care of me. And so I thank God for him. He uh he really did look out for me. You know, as tough as you might think somebody is, you know, they're still couldn't be really looking out for you, and he really was. So, yeah, so that was my uh probably my closest uh closest call, I guess you could say. And uh, I definitely uh yeah, there's this old, I think it probably comes for like World War I or War War II. There's there's no atheists in a foxhole, you know. You ever heard that one? Yeah. And so it as far as way, as far away as from God, I I guess maybe I'd gotten, and you when it's time to cry out, you man, you you you'll you will remember Jesus real quick. And so uh, yeah, I just I just always carried this this little cloth with me. I still got it to the I've never I don't guess I'll ever get rid of it because uh I it just you know helps me remember, you know, the the prayers that have been prayed over me and and I knew that too. My grandmother's praying, uh, my mother, you know, just the people in my church, you know, thank God for a good home church of the local church. Uh just because of that, just just just knowing that people were praying for me, you know, uh I'm a big proponent of the local church. And uh I know there's a lot of seems like more and more Christians out there nowadays are you'll find a lot of people kind of like, yeah, I don't need to go to church necessarily. That's not the church isn't really a building. And and yet, you know, I get it. I get it. A man, there's something about having a a family, a local church, people you can rely on, people who to do life with. So I'm a huge proponent. I I don't really I people start talking to me about that, you know, about not needing to go to church. I'm like, well, okay, bud. Well, I whatever. Yeah. I I believe differently. I disagree. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06So you you make it through that. Uh I'm sure obviously at that point in time, that kind of brings faith back into your life pretty quickly and helps you recognize that hey, that's probably a miracle that that at least one of us three did not, you know, that that didn't go off in the damage that it could have caused. So let's let's fast forward a little bit through that and let's get into when your military career ends.
Leaving The Corps And Losing Identity
SPEAKER_06Right. Talk about that transition from, you know, I I assume your identity at that point in time in your life was being a Marine. Right. Yep. You know, I going on on two deployments and being blown up and, you know, kind of probably pounding your chest a little bit, look at me, and then all of a sudden it's done. Right. So what's life look like at that time when the military career is over?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so um this is uh you kind of described it really well. Um being being married being in the Marine Corps. Uh I remember going home sometimes. Um I I was able to hold my head high and I had my chest stuck out. And because I mean, I was told I was America's finest, you know. And I, you know, you go on a couple of deployments, like you said, you I I've done something. And so I'm a I'm a United States Marine. I've uh you know, I've been to combat. Um and so being able to go home, I could, I could hold my head high, and and uh I was just you know, I could live a proud life, I guess you could say. And uh when I got out in 2015, I remember I moved back to my uh my hometown, moved back in with my parents and uh started looking for jobs. I took a couple weeks and just chilled and started looking for jobs and um after a after a couple weeks settling back in uh and not having a job immediately like I thought I would, yeah, things started to change. And I didn't see myself as that Marine anymore. And um, I was kind of just Joe Blow. And um yeah, it took me like four months to find a uh I did a little side work for for a family friend, um, but but I couldn't, it took me like four months to find a job, which was crazy.
SPEAKER_06Where were you at mentally? That had to be pretty tough.
SPEAKER_02Oh yeah, yeah. It so yeah, getting to that, it was uh it started really, really weighing on me. The economy wasn't great at that time in 2015, and uh oil was down, and uh where I where I grew up, oil was a uh overall probably the biggest employer, uh, the oil field. And man, I just couldn't find a job. And one thing that was killing me is like I was looking at my friends, and a couple of them had gotten married. Uh, I think a couple of them had started having kids, uh, had houses, and you know, good jobs. Um, you know, so my friends are starting to look pretty successful. And me, it's kind of like I essentially took a pause. I hit the pause button for four years to go do this thing. And so I'm not finding a job and I'm looking at everybody, I guess, which is wrong. I'm getting pretty, I'd say covetous, you know. Uh but also I'm looking at myself like uh, man, did I, man, I think I'm maybe messed up. Maybe I I made the wrong decision or something like that. And uh because I I I'm kind of nobody now. And so I went from being you know, America's finest to to nobody. Couldn't find, like I said, couldn't find a job. It it was really starting to bother me. Really. Um and it's what's crazy is like I had a reference, personal reference, a buddy working at uh, it was at a plywood mill, a good company to work for. And I had three interviews with this company, and they didn't hire me in just south of my hometown. And I'm just like, what? What is going on? Like, I it was just blowing my mind, and it was dry, and it was I you know, it was getting to the point I just I it you just don't even want to try anymore. I you know, I knew I had to, but it was just you're you kind of walk around ashamed because you don't have a job and you're living with your parents and you're comparing. Right. And that's that was my mindset, and I started dwelling on that, dwelling on that. And I didn't have other than, yeah, I grew up in church and I knew the the the Sunday school stories and I knew about God, but uh I didn't have a personal conviction, I didn't have a a good good foundation in the word. And uh I didn't know what to do with my thoughts. And I didn't know um what thoughts were legitimate and what I should shouldn't dwell on. And and so I I was getting, man, I was getting for the first time in my life, I can say I was actually depressed. And I didn't know what it was. I never felt like this because it was more than thoughts. It had kind of moved into my like my I I can say this now, it was it became a spiritual matter. And I was just so distraught, it almost started physically it did like physically affect my body. Like uh sometime, you know, sometimes the only you know, the only thing you get pleasure in is food. So you just eat and eat and eat, I guess. Uh um, but I'd also drink. I'd I I never stopped drinking. And what was crazy, I'd um I got to the point when I would drink, I would get uh, I would drink, you know, once I kind of had got drunk, and all of a sudden, like I would get it would be like super depression, like just like man, just like horrible depression. It was weird. Almost to the point it's like, man, I gotta stop drinking.
SPEAKER_06You feel like that was spiritual warfare?
SPEAKER_02I I guess you could say that that that term. I don't just I don't know. I I would say, yeah, I don't I don't really use that term just a whole lot. Um I think it was uh I look at it, this is how it works when it comes to spiritual warfare or or uh oppression, depression. I think it starts with thoughts, and I think that's how the demonic realm works starting. And if they can get you to think certain thoughts and dwell on certain things long enough, they can depress you. And uh if they can get you to get depressed, uh then they can start, and and maybe my terminology is wrong. This is just me, the best way I can explain it, then they can, you know, kind of start um get they can get a foothold on you. And uh almost to where you feel like you're in a pit and you can't get out. And um so that's and I think that's where that's that's how suicidal thoughts start. You know, when you when you've lost all hope, you know, that's when that that's I think that's when uh if you want to talk about spiritual warfare, I think that's when, you know, ultimately that's what the devil would love for all of us, to take our own lives. And if he can get you so distraught, so oppressed, depressed, whatever you want to call it, and uh get you to where you just don't have any future, you you cannot see light at the end of the tunnel, you have no hope, then he's gonna chunk that thought, that suicidal, because that's demonic. That's just that's it's just gotta be demonic, you know. I know people, I know there's mental disabilities, I know there's mental um illness. I understand that, but um, and I I know some of that can be treated, I know, but I think most of the time, this suicidal thoughts that I I think a lot of that is because you gave you gave the you gave the enemy a foothold because you you just started dwelling, you didn't know because the Bible teaches against you know uh dwelling on the wrong thing. It tells you to take every thought captive and bring it to the obedience of Christ. And so you know if you if you're gonna dwell on the the wrong thing for too long, it's it's it's just gonna consume you.
Depression, Comparison, And Dark Thoughts
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so that's that's it's just opening up the door for the worst thoughts.
SPEAKER_06So you're in that pit.
SPEAKER_02Right. How do you get out? Well, it took it it took a while, I'll say that. Uh after about four months, I uh looking for jobs. I finally get I go in this uh job interview. It's uh town called Arkadelphia, Arkansas, about an hour and some change from my hometown. Um, and I go on this job interview. It's kind of really just one guy, kind of real lighthearted. It's this uh, it's a uh factory, and uh uh the interview seemed pretty easy, really laid back. It just seemed real just I wasn't nervous. Uh real nice guy. Um and I had the interview and he takes me back to the the plant manager, general manager, whoever, and he um he talks to me a little bit and he's like, Well, the the general manager, he's like, Well, he doesn't bring everybody back here so to meet me. So, you know, I'll just let you know that. And so I I get out of the uh interview and I'm I'm feeling pretty good. And I actually was driving to another town after that to go, I think, to a place I had to lean on to put in an application. So I get in my truck and uh I make it maybe maybe a half mile, maybe not even a mile down the road. And I remember sunshining and I'm driving down, I'm just driving, and I'm not saying I heard it with my ears. I'm not, I don't, I can't tell you. I heard take this job. And so it was loud enough, I guess you could say, to the point I'm like, what the I'm almost looking behind me, like, who the heck, what? And um up until this point in my life, I I didn't really experience anything spectacular, really supernatural. And um, so I'm thinking I'm nuts, you know. I I I I knew I had some, you know, I've I'm going through the ringer, you know, I'm pretty, you know, down low, and and I'm thinking, I uh I hearing voices, and now it's it's I'm I've got a problem probably. But I but it in the back of my head too, I was like, was that God? Because it I don't know, it it wasn't with my ears, but it wasn't, I don't I can't tell you how I heard it, but it was just as loud as me and you talking right now.
SPEAKER_01It's clear as can be.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and it's like it and it to this day, and this is over 10 years ago, I'll never forget that. It's just take this job. And not, and it's weird, it's like I, it's not like I wasn't gonna take it or I didn't know, but actually, uh, man, probably that was the interview, I'm sure, is like nine, 10 in the morning, probably three, three o'clock in the afternoon. I'm just guessing, in the afternoon, after sometime after lunch, the HR later calls me and offers me the job for a much better wage than I was thinking I'd ever get. And so I was like, well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, sounds good to me. Yeah. And so uh, so I took that job. And uh what's crazy is that little town, probably any other little town in South Arkansas, just from going to college or having relatives, I would have known somebody in any other town in southwest Arkansas. I would have known somebody. That town I just like knew nobody. And um so I'm there for for a few months, and my mom, there is, there happens to be a uh a man, and uh he used to be a preacher, and it was kind of a weird story. I think he had to have like a kidney transplant. And so he was kind of retired, you could say. Um had, you know, he stepped down from his church, he had to, you know, had took care of his kidney and all that stuff. And so he uh, anyways, he was kind of retired, I guess, or whatever. And him and his wife lived in this town, and my mom knew it, and my mom was kind of close to him. And I I'd heard him preach before he'd like come and uh preached in my church when I was younger, and I knew who he was. And uh so my mom kept telling me, hey, you know, Dennis lives there. Dennis, you ought to meet up with him. And she's bugging me and bugging me, and I'm thinking, I'm still at the point, you know, like I'm still wanting a drink, you know. I'm driving actually to my hometown, meeting my buddies every weekend. I'm I'm wanting a hangout party, whatever. And uh, I don't want to talk to this preacher or whatever. And so she keeps bugging me and bugging me. And after living there about nine months, he uh I I went and ate with him and his wife one time, and eventually they wanted to start this like I just get together like a Bible study in their house. And I uh I didn't want to go because I'm like 26. Um I just didn't want to go. I didn't, I I was going to a church, wasn't super involved, but I will, I did, I knew I needed to be in church because mom kept bugging me. And uh so I got got going to a church, and uh but he he was talking telling me about starting this Bible study at his house or whatever on on Friday nights, and I'm like, man, I'm not gonna go on Friday night. And uh, you know, I did uh he was gonna have it one night. He I I bailed out on him a couple times, and I remember one night he was having it, and uh I decided to go meet my brother up in Little Rock. But I knew I needed to stay and and uh go to his Bible study or whatever. I knew I should have. Like, don't ask me why, I just knew I should, just one of those things, like I should do it. I I know I should do it. And uh I ended up just shoving all that to the side, and I go up there and meet my brother uh on a Friday night, you know, in Little Rock. And we go out to eat, and I'm just I can't tell you how miserable. I can't explain to you how miserable I was. And it's like I knew I should have been at that guy's house for that Bible study. I can't explain to you how miserable. I can't, it was so, and it's like I don't know what's making it's it's just like you know, at the deepest part of your being, you sh you should have gone and done this and you didn't do it. And it's like, it's like the one time in my life I know, well not the one time, but the first time I would say in my life, like I directly disobeyed God. And it was so painful. I remember me and my brother, he had, I can't remember what he was doing, but he had something the next morning. So we stayed in the hotel. And I remember I was, I couldn't even sleep at night. I was so miserable the whole night because I didn't go to this Bible study. And I get back home the next day at like, I don't know, lunchtime, and I run into my bedroom and I hit my knees. And I was like, God, I what I'm so miserable. I'm so sick, I'm so depressed, I'm so messed up, I'm so sick of life. Like my life sucks so bad. God, I'm done. Like, I like so I'm I'm just crying out to I'm just I'm like, whatever you want me to do, I'm like I'm doing it. Because I'm not living like this, because this is horrible. My conscience is literally gonna burst into flames and kill me if I don't start obeying you. And like, so it was just that intense of a conviction, I guess you could say. And I uh so I I say it like this, I rededicated my life to God there.
Rededication And Learning Scripture
SPEAKER_02And um, and from so I started going to this guy's Bible study, and he'd meet every once a week, you know, and uh for the next like six months, I went to his house like every Friday night, and he just would teach. He would, because he was a pastor, he would just teach, and like first time in my life, I was actually listening. I learned so much, so much. And um, I mean, it's just like all of a sudden, just I had a hunger for the word. And so, but eventually my my my flesh was my flesh, and I didn't, I still didn't really have any friends around there. And I was meeting with like him and like a bunch of older people, and I was like, I still don't want to be here. As much as I love this and I know I'm supposed to be here, I still don't want to be around a bunch of old people on Friday night. And so uh, anyways, I I eventually got a job in Little Rock. That that's where all the it's kind of how it is. The young people in the small towns, they migrate to the to the city and then they get tired of it and migrate back home, and then they have their families. So uh I was at that stage and I I make it up to Little Rock and I get a job, and uh I was there for like four years. And um I got into a uh um small church, but uh the pastor actually was from my hometown. Um and uh so I went I went to that church and I was growing and growing and growing and just listening, listening to his teaching. And um eventually 2020, just to fast forward, I guess, 2020 came around. And uh I'll be honest with you though, the whole time like I was dealing with, I still deal with depression. Like I'd be on highs, but then I would get on lows, you know, and uh I would just still look at my life like I'm Still not where I want to be. I still like you know, I wanted to, I I thought I would have gotten married and had kids by then and settled down and white picket fence and all this, and I was still none of that had happened, and I uh I was still, but it there was something it's just like something. I'm not doing something that I'm supposed to be doing. It's just like I'm not what I'm doing right now, uh it's just I am not fulfilled whatsoever. And so 2020 comes around, COVID breaks out, and uh man, it's like you you church shuts down for a good little chunk, and I'm going to work. We actually just so happened my job just was flourishing at the time, and I'm I worked more hours that year than I ever had, or hopefully ever will. And uh I was just working like crazy. I'm watching, I started looking at social media, the world, the country's burning to the ground. That really started bothering me. I mean, it really I hated to see that. And um that was real it was that was bothering me pretty bad. And um so I I'm growing with God, but at the same time, it's like there's it's like I'm at this plateau and something's gotta give. I'm still not there's this huge hole still need needing to be filled. And sometime during 2020, I just found myself like on a Saturday morning. I think I actually I had tried to uh a couple times I'd tried to get into fasting. I'd never done that. And uh I just kind of felt like I should, just kind of felt the conviction to do it. And so maybe the second or third time I would like fast on a Friday and get up Saturday morning and just read and pray. And one of these times I didn't know what to pray for. I was just like, I was really just spilling my guts and pouring that, pouring my heart out, or I was really just complaining to God, like, what is wrong? Why do I feel because at this time I had a house. I had uh had a I was making good money. Uh I was a supervisor. I uh it looked like I had a good career ahead of me. Uh, you know, I had a good church family, but man, I was just something wasn't right. And so I'm I'm just spilling my guts. I'm just complaining. I'm like, God, what the heck is wrong with me? What is wrong? Why do I feel I just like something, you know, like I'm not doing nothing right. Am I like, is this the rest of my life? This is what life's supposed to look like. And uh that same like voice. I hate to use, I hate to tell people I'm hearing a voice, but it's like in it's not with my ears, but it's but I can hear it. It's just this internal, I mean, the whole it I know now it's the the Holy Spirit spoke to me and told me to specifically to go to Bible college.
Called To Bible College
SPEAKER_02And uh how'd that make you feel? Well, once again, I'm like, well, I am once again, I'm crazy. I'm I have it's it's gotten to this point again. I'm actually clinically wrong. And uh and you know, at this point, because it was so specific, I knew it's not, you know, the devil's not gonna tell you to go to Bible college. And uh so I knew it was God, but I was so like kind of shocked. And I and I want to say this too, just for people, uh just for context, like that's happened to me twice in my life. And that is not normal at all. And I tell you this too, I think it happened in that extreme of a case, that spectacular of a case, because I was not necessarily heading in the right direction. And if I didn't, if God didn't, or I wasn't, you know, I wasn't listening, I wasn't pursuing probably it what I should have been. Um I was pursuing still a job, worldly things. I wasn't pursuing what God necessarily wanted me to do.
SPEAKER_06You were on your path, not his path.
SPEAKER_02Right. And so that's why I was such in such anguish. And so if he didn't redirect me in such a, you know, I th I kind of think it was like time is of the essence type deal. And um, and not that not that God is like an uh like things have to happen immediately, no, but it's like, you know, your trajectory is is off right now. And if I don't redirect you right now, you're you're you're gonna get pretty far off. And it's gonna be a lot harder later on if for you to do this than it is uh now. That's just my my take on it. Um so it that's not the norm, is what I want to say. That's that's maybe once in a lifetime type deal. If that. I would say probably, you know, 90% of Christians go through their life and then they don't hear that. They don't get that type of spectacular uh, you know, thing from God. And I've learned too, like you don't, you can't, it's like, man, if I could tell anybody, if they're listening to this, and and man, please don't try to make that happen. Because I've tried. Because I've I've definitely tried to hear the voice of God. And now I specifically tell people, I preach on it. Like, don't, that's not the norm. That's not how God's reaching people on an everyday basis. Like you look at the book of Acts and you see these miracles and the spectacular stuff, and people don't realize it was this is happening to a a group of men. Not not all of them did this happen to, and it happened over a span of like 20 years. This is not everyday stuff. So we can't just expect that. So that's that's not what we should be looking for. Because if you do, I I I've I've heard somebody put it like this if you're looking for that spec spectacular stuff, these listening for these voices, uh, sometimes the devil might accommodate you.
SPEAKER_06Correct.
SPEAKER_02And so uh I think you've got to be so careful when it comes to that stuff. You gotta, you gotta live based on you live your life, get your direction from the word of God.
SPEAKER_01So Well, you definitely positioned yourself in the right spot though, to where if God wanted to, you know, talk to you like he did, I mean, you positioned you're f you're fasting. Right. Like you're talking about like you're you know, you're single, like you're in your house. Right. Like you fasted, you woke up, you you had your prayer life to where like you positioned yourself. You know, we talked before um week out on about the world's so busy, like people come over from Africa or something like that, and it's harder to hear God here. Right. It might not be the audible voice, right? But the Holy Spirit and just being like in your prayer life and in the word, um, we're so busy that you know, if God's trying to talk to us, how many times if it's not the audible voice that God's trying to talk, are we too busy to even hear, you know? Yeah, right, right.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, so you so you hear this voice, go to Bible college. Right. Eventually, you do.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, so it actually uh I hear that, and um first reaction is oh well, I'm nuts. But you know, something like that, if it's really from God, if God really does talk to you, you it will it will just be ringing in your head and you will not forget it. Yeah, I mean, you you cannot forget it. It will be you remember the exact words, and uh I'll say this too. I hear I hear this saying, uh God's talking all the time, but we're just not listening. That ain't that no. That's just like I don't I I get where they're coming from, but you know, both time both times God spoke to me, it was like three words. Um God's normal, actually. We're you know, we we make God so super crazy spiritual that that we forget like he created us in his image. And so our our normal should be the way God acts. Like, I don't think Jesus was a weirdo when he was walking around on earth. I think he was probably as normal and regular, had a pretty cool personality. You know, I think he was he he set the standard from for being normal. So like I I think of it like this it's like if I'm having a conversation with Jesus, if I'm when I'm talking, he's not. When he's talking, I'm not. So I think one of our biggest problems is uh we just expect God to to just be blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. No, it's like, I mean, you you you've got to say your peace, stop. Listen. You know, that's it's not like he's gonna talk. I I hear it taught like this too, and I I I I'll I like this analogy. Uh like the Holy, I've heard it said like this, the Holy Spirit's a gentleman. And so one thing about a gentleman, you know, he's not gonna interrupt you. He's not gonna, you know, invite himself to places that you didn't invite him. You know, he's he's perfectly normal. He's a person. And so uh people get that construed. And uh it's just not like he's gonna be just talking to you, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I just don't, he's I guess I'll say it again. He's just he's just normal. He's a regular person. And so uh, we can't expect these uh just him to be talking over us and and doing crazy things all the time and telling us just super crazy things to do. Um so, anyways, I I uh I yeah, I hear that. And so I'm like you're struggling with your mind. You're trying to logic these things out, you're trying to rationalize like, is this real? Did I hear from God? It's like the whole time in your heart, you know you did, but it's so far-fetched, so abnormal, unnatural, your mind just can't really handle it. And uh so eventually I talked to uh I uh I should have done it way earlier. I should have reached out to my pastor way earlier, but I eventually did. And uh and so he's like, yeah, man, you know, that's that's a that's a good deal, and I'm gonna support you, and I'll, you know, I'll do whatever I can to help you. And and so it took me like a year, but I finally made it there. So uh I had a house to sell. And this is what's so crazy. If I would have sold my house and picked up and moved right then and sold my house, like I wouldn't have come out very good. But in 2021, the housing market, man, it was crazy.
SPEAKER_06Exploded.
SPEAKER_02I I came out so good. It's like God, man, it's like God. I I I hear a lot of stories about this. Like God, some somebody will say, you know, God told me to do something, but I, you know, it didn't, or told me something was gonna happen, but it didn't happen like till five years later or something like that. He just laid it on my heart 10 years ago or five years ago. And, you know, God knows you're when you're gonna pick up and move. God knows he's like he knows he knew that I wasn't gonna be able to, didn't have the ump and gumption and passion to get up. I was too skeptical. You know, he knew it was gonna take me a year. And that's why I feel like that's why he told me then, because when I sold my house, like I came out so good. Like, I mean, literally the money I made off my house, like, I mean, it for the next three years I was at Bible college, it it it you know, it helped me survive because I I I literally made I went to Bible college. I I uh I got a part-time job, you know, and I was making like a quarter of my previous salary. And so uh that man, it it it just he worked it all out.
SPEAKER_06So you so you go through Bible college, uh, you know, thanks to the sale of your house, you've got money to survive, you get a part-time job. Um you come out of Bible college. And this this is the part of the story where I was intrigued by how in the world a man from Arkansas ends up in Lewisburg, Ohio. Yeah. So talk about what happens and what what conversation is had and what brings you here today. Why are you here?
SPEAKER_02Right. So, specifically how I got here, um after my second year of Bible college, I was uh I was praying about what I should. Uh, because that particular school, it's a two-year program, and the first two years are pretty much Bible, but they have third-year programs you can go to, and they're tailored towards being a pastor, tailored towards being a kid's like youth minister. Uh, they have a missions, uh, praise and worship, you know, musical side of things. And anyway, so I didn't want to do that. I I I was like, man, I don't need any more schooling or anything. And and so I um I'm praying and praying about what in the world to do. And I kept um, well, let me tell you this. I guess I need to tell you this. Um, somewhere along the lines, because I I don't know as much, I don't know much, but I didn't know especially then as much as I know now. And and uh, you know, God had spoken to me a couple times. And so I'm I'm I think I knew better, but I was still looking for this spectacular stuff. And so several months before I graduated my second year of about, you know, second year of Bible college, I had this, and and I I full disclosure, I mean, I'm embarrassed to tell this because it's it's so weird. And uh, but I'll do it. Hopefully I help somebody. Uh I had this dream, and uh this is so crazy. I had this dream, and it was like no picture, no nothing. It was just a voice. Just a voice. And I heard uh uh they need help in Nebraska. That's all I heard. And I remember waking up and I I go on my life and I'm like, well, once again, I'm crazy. And and uh it's always me. I always point to myself as the problem, you know. I don't know if that's healthy or not, but anyways, maybe I need help if somebody's out there. You're being humble. Yeah. But uh so I had this dream, and I'm like, I shove it off, and I knew better, you know. I knew better. Dreams, you gotta be so, you know, they're probably like one in a thousand or from God. I I I don't know. I just got to be so careful with that. So careful. And so it just kept popping up in my mind over the weeks, weeks are going by, and I'm like, man, maybe I should pursue this thing. And then at our uh, I'm going, I'm sitting through graduation and this uh the commencement speech or whatever, this uh alum guy, he was a pastor now, and he's actually from Ohio, and he he uh he was giving this commencement speech and he was talking about I think it's Acts 16 or something, and uh Paul has a vision in the night, and a uh man standing on the shore of Macedonian says, We need help over here. We need help. And so this whole the theme of this commencement speech is we need to help. They need help. And I'm like, oh my God, they need help in the breast. So I'm like, how do I get there? And so I'm like, man, this is it, man. So I I like the only thing I know to do is like, you know, there's websites out there, you know, that just like any other job, there's uh in like Indeed or whatever, there's websites tailored for ministry. And so I get on there and I find like one dude who needs uh like an associate pastor in in Nebraska. And uh, man, just one. This is the one. This is it.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And uh so I like email him my resume and uh, you know, uh, I can't remember if they I think they just wanted you to email a resume and write something. And so uh I sent him that, and I think it was uh, you know what, it may have been Memorial Day holiday because I remember he didn't get back with me till like the Tuesday after, because I sent it on like a Friday or something like that. So about this time of the year, you know, school's winding up and everything. So I'm like, man, this is working out perfect. Graduate, I'm gonna move, you know. Yes, man, I and so like I said, I'm embarrassed to tell this, but I did it. Hopefully it'll help somebody. But so this guy comes back to me and he's like, man, hey, you know, your your your uh your resume looks great, you know, you you know, thank you for your service. And and uh, but I I just gotta tell you, I'm looking for somebody with a lot more experience because my church has kind of gone through a little hurt or or something like that. Uh he's had some problems over the last couple years and we're trying to rebuild and stuff, and and so he's like, I just you know need somebody with a lot more, you know, actual pastoring experience. And uh I'm like, I was so convinced. I had convinced myself that this was it, you know, this was my opportunity. And uh I was I wasn't upset, I wasn't mad, but I was just so confused at that point. I was like, what the heck? How did I miss that? You know, Mr. Holy Spirit man over here, you know, how did I get that wrong? And so I just like, you know, I I I didn't really upset me too much. I was just really confused on how how I got off that bad. And uh, I just kept having this kind of thing and this like little nudge on the inside. I need to go back and visit my pastor back in Arkansas and um the one in Little Rock. And I kept thinking that and kept thinking that. And honestly, I had not, in the two years I'd been uh been away, I had not gone back and visited, which was wrong. And I I regret it, and I apologize to him. And and I hope anybody else out there will, you know, you you need you should honor those who've poured into your life and uh stay in contact with them. And and so I I went back and uh on a Saturday mor Saturday I got lunch with
A Pastor’s Advice And Open Doors
SPEAKER_02him. You know, I drove back over there and and got lunch with him. I went to to church the next morning with him. And so I'm sitting down to lunch and we're talking, just catching up and everything. And he's like, Well, Caleb, you know, what uh so what now? You know, what are you gonna do? And I said, Well, that's kind of what I wanted to talk about. So I I give him this whole spiel about the dream and the and like what do I do now? And you know, it's like, man, I I really thought God would open the door by now. And and man, he was just he's hearing me and he's listening to me do, you know, what I did and this dream, and he's just he's kind of just like putting his head down, kind of, you know, almost pursing his lips. And and I'm like, you know, finally I stop and I'm looking at him and he's just like, Caleb, just forget that, man. Just just don't don't just forget the dream, forget all that, forget that. He's like, what you need to do, you need to take a chill pill. And so my my mouth's just wide open. I'm like, man, and this man's been like in ministry like 50 years or something. Like he's been there, done that. Um, and I just couldn't believe his advice was take a chill pill. He was just like, Caleb, you just gotta, man, if God wants you somewhere, he's gonna get you somewhere. You just need to relax. It doesn't matter if you go back to school or not, you just wherever you're at, you be faithful. Sir, if you're at that church, you just serve. You be faithful wherever you're at. And you just make this a season of prayer. You just pray. Just Just you know you know but ultimately be faithful that God only promotes faithfulness. He just gave me the most simple just advice. Advice and it was just it was so but the thing when he was saying it, it was like it was like it was 120 degrees outside, and you gave me a glass of ice water and it, you know what I'm saying? It was like the best thing in the world. It was the easiest thing to listen to, and it was so simple. And I never walked away from a conversation feeling so lighthearted and so relieved. Man, just and so what's crazy is uh I decided to go to this pastor's course. I go back to Bible college, go to this pastor's course, and I was there, I'd made it through the first semester uh right after Christmas, maybe about February time. They uh in this pastor's course, they they were bringing these pastors in who had had a lot of either started their own church or been pastoring like 20 years or something, you know. And uh it was awesome. These guys would come in and they just give you the the down and dirty, good, bad, and ugly of pastoring. It wasn't super spiritual, it was just the dealing with people. And the first guy was from Lewisburg, Ohio, named Justin Wigand. And uh he caught me in between classes uh one morning. Uh, he was there for a week, and he's like, hey man, uh, you seem like a pretty good old boy. I want you to come visit my church, just see what we're doing. And uh he just said that to me and like shook my hand. And I I'm telling you, as soon as I walked away, like under my breath, I said, Oh my God, I'm moving to Ohio. Because like that whole conversation that my uh pastor had with me, and he was just I just remembered everything he said, and he was just like, you know, if God wants you somewhere, he's gonna get you somewhere. And he he'd also said something about it, he's like, God used his people. He's always using, he uses people to get his will done. So man, just the doors, somebody's gonna come up to you one day, the door's gonna open. And just like every, as simple as it was, it's just exactly how I how he told me. His advice was just spot on, even though it seems very generic and but but as soon as I talked to Pastor Justin, um, like all that came back to me. And it was just like, dang. But once again, now I start trying to logically figure this out and think how, think how this is gonna work. And so uh I'm like, is this God? You know, deep down on the inside, I knew it was right. This is the opportunity I prayed for. But, you know, in my head, I'm like, man, this is Ohio. That's the most rent. I couldn't have thought of a more random place. Like if you asked me to Nebraska. Yeah. Oh man, at least a uh a voice mentioned that one. Yeah, you know, and so uh, but it it it uh it took me forever. I finally uh I think I called, I came up here and visited for a couple days. He just showed me around and he kind of laid it out to me and he said, Look, you know, we're always expanding, and uh, I'm not offering you anything, and I'm not promising you anything, but you know, I think you'd fit in and we're willing to to train you, to help you, to work with you. And uh, you know, we're always looking to expand, and it's just for he was just saying, it's so hard to find pastors. And so, like I said, he's like, no promises, but you know, if you're willing to come up, get get a job, find a place to live, you know, just we'll work with you and we'll just see what happens. I mean, so literally, he just didn't offer me hardly anything other than almost exactly what I was praying for, really. An opportunity. An opportunity.
SPEAKER_06He kind of uh, as you're telling this, what's popping in my head is your uh your meeting with uh Marine Recruiter. Right. Yeah. Kind of a similar conversation a little bit.
SPEAKER_02Oh man, I I I think Pastor Justin could could sell ice to Eskimo. I'm not gonna lie. He's he's got that personality, and it seems like if he asks you to do something, you it somehow there's he you just want to do it for some reason. He's just got that about him. Yeah. So so it was uh it wasn't a hard decision to make as far as I I felt like it was the right place to be, a good place. I I wasn't like skeptical of of here. I was like, in my head, it's like it's so random. It's so like Ohio. Like and what it's another move. Uh that's another thing. I'm just I've been so tired of moving. Because ever since I left to go to the Marine Corps, I've been, I've I've just it's about every three, three, four years I I've moved. And so I'm just kind of sick of that life, you know. And I was like, another move. And uh how long have you been here now? A year and um February was a year. So what is that, four months, something like that? Year and four months.
SPEAKER_06So you so you make the move, you're here, you've been here a year and four months, uh, you're helping out at the community of faith church, you got a job, you're kind of getting embedded into the community, meeting, meeting people. Right. Um how's it feel?
SPEAKER_02Well, I definitely know uh I'm in the right place. I've never questioned, um honestly, it's weird. I've never questioned since I've been up here, did I do the right thing? Um because it it it's just I've had peace about being here the whole time. And that's what uh you know that that's what I've learned and that's what I teach it try to teach people or tell people if I get the opportunity is you know, you're you know, back to the whole voices thing, you know, that's not what you should be looking for. You need to be looking for peace. And uh, you know, you know, growing up, it I remember going to my church, like my home church. I always felt at home, I always felt peaceful. I never felt weird. Uh I never felt out of place. It was just comfortable, it was it was like home. And so it's the same since I've been up here. Like when I go to church at COF. Any I I went to actually I went to our attended Arkanum for like a year. Uh now I'm at the Lewisburg campus. And uh but both both places. I'm uh I'm just comfortable. I'm at peace. I'm like, man, this is these this uh these are good people. This is uh this is a good work. I see God's hand on it. I but and that's not to say everybody's gonna go there and that's that maybe that's not where God wants them. Maybe you'll feel that peace in another at another local body. Um but this is where uh you know, this is the door that God opened for me, and I I just I'm at peace being here. No matter the outside stuff, job stuff, assignments they give me, blah blah blah, you know, you know, you have life is life, you know, you got stuff you gotta do. Um life gets tough, whatever. Um but that that underlying piece of knowing you're in the right spot, you're in the right place, that's been there. And and that's it's here right now, you know.
SPEAKER_06So that's great, man. Um amazing story, amazing journey. Um, you know, all all the the different things that happened in your life where where you definitely now looking back see God's presence through all those, you know, triumphs and struggles and and depression and uh you know, going to Bible college, and then all of a sudden here you are in Ohio, not Nebraska. I mean, it it's it's an amazing story, it's an amazing testimony. And uh, you know, I I'm thankful that uh, you know, that God made our paths cross that we could sit here today and I could could hear your story, and Ben could hear everybody can hear your story and and be inspired by it because it's it's real. Right. You know, and it's it's more common, I think, to a lot of people uh than not. Yeah you know, the struggles of finding work, the struggles of you know, being raised in faith and falling away in college and partying and doing all the things. I mean, I did the same thing.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_06Right. And then going into the Marine Corps and having this identity of, you know, I'm I'm I'm invincible. I'm I I've done this, I've I've survived an IED and coming home and trying to figure out who you really are. Right. Yeah. And when we search ourselves, we're not gonna find those answers. Right. But I think when we when we truly surrender, and sometimes it takes being at rock bottom. Yeah. When we truly surrender, that's when when we may or may not hear a voice, but we definitely feel a pull and a calling towards something bigger than ourselves. Right. And we know what that is. Yep. So amazing story.
SPEAKER_07Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I'm gonna finish with one question. Okay. I was gonna give you 10, but we're rocking and rolling here. We're gonna call you Pastor Jeff Travis. Have you met Jeff?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And Jeff's gonna be preaching this weekend. So how cool is that? He's gonna pass him up this weekend.
SPEAKER_06Yeah, and and you gotta go to work. Yeah, what time is it? I don't worry about it.
SPEAKER_01We'll write you a note. Yeah, yeah. Does that stuff work?
SPEAKER_06Sean will do it. He'll write you one. All right. Last question.
Who I’d Meet On A Bench
SPEAKER_06If you could sit on a park bench, have a conversation with someone living or deceased, who would it be and why?
SPEAKER_02Uh you know, I guess I could take the easy road out and say Jesus, which I guess that'd probably be everybody's number one. But um I would probably say uh my grandfather, uh, my mom's dad. I didn't I didn't know my my dad's dad because he died, I think, like right a couple months after I was uh uh born. But my my grandfather, my I called him Paw Paw, my my mom's dad, he died when I was uh 10, 10 years old. But up until then, man, he would uh that was my hero, you know. He took me fishing and he'd pick me up on a Saturday and we'd be gone all day. And uh I he was just like he was it to me. And he would uh he was always I of all his grandsons, I've been the oldest, and uh I we he lived near me. We my mom stayed home, her other siblings, you know, went to other, uh moved off, but uh so I was really close to him. And when I was 10 years old and then he died, that man, that hurt so bad because he was just like it for me. And so but also he was uh I guess probably one of the most godly men I've ever known. And I remember him always praying. I remember uh I was spending the night with him, you know, waking up and he was always up early drinking coffee and uh reading the Bible. And I remember one thing he did, uh, he didn't always do this, but towards the end of his life, he uh he sold insurance, life insurance, and he would actually go, this was like I guess right as the internet was starting up, you know, I guess late 90s or whatever, you know, he would collect the uh people's uh uh insurance uh payment, the premium or whatever.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_02And so I remember riding around, he'd go to people's houses, and but I remember him uh I remember him praying for people. And I just that was his I just remember him being so godly. And um, but he he got cancer and he died at 60 years old. And um, man, that really upset me as a young boy, and that's your you know, that's your hero. Um but I guess the reason I'd want to talk to him is because the older I got when my grandmother got his, you know, his wife, when she got older, kind of she kind of got dementia, and uh she lost her, she started losing her filter and she started talking about everything and uh the family, all the uh skeletons in the closet and stuff. And uh he apparently he wasn't always saved. And uh apparently he was a little rough, and I think he ran around a little bit and I think he he uh I think she put it like this one time one of the babies wouldn't stop crying. So he didn't he didn't whoop the baby, but he he whooped her. So I guess, oh sorry, but uh I guess he uh you know he made a change, a significant, a drastic change somewhere along the line. And uh still to this day, just thinking back, like I mean, one of the most uh God-fearing men, just I know the man knew God. I just looking back, I just know, you know. And um so I guess I would like to ask him about his uh transition or transformation, yeah. Yeah, right, right, right. That's a good word, yeah. Yeah, because um it's kind of weird later on. I didn't really change my opinion about him after I heard all the the junk, but uh I you know I still it didn't make me think less of him, but I I think like, man, how do you go from being such a hard man to to being the man that I knew, you know? And uh not not to run around on on my wife or beating my wife or anything. But but but like you know, I I've had a transformation.
SPEAKER_06Right.
SPEAKER_02And so uh man, what can I glean from? What what advice can you give me? And what what was it, what was it like? There had to be a defining moment. And there there had to have been, there had to have been a couple of spectacular instances with God. I just want to know what was that, what, what were those, you know?
SPEAKER_06Yeah, that's awesome.
SPEAKER_02I'd say that'd be it.
SPEAKER_06That's great, man. You got anything to add?
SPEAKER_01No. I was gonna say kind of the same thing you did, you know. It seems like the past three episodes that we had had identity was like one of the main things of where we're finding our identity at, no matter if it was an athlete or if it was a Marine, you know, the finding that identity, as long as you center yourself around identity in Christ, then you know, that's what drink brings us back. And then the other thing was like when you're talking about depression and comparison, like the other thing we always talk about, comparison being the thief of joy. Yeah. And it's just you know, the more stories you hear, the more it seems like you you hear these things and the kind of the remedy for it, you know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And I think I could like that subject right there. I think I could do a whole podcast just talking about that subject, you know, and my experiences and and how to overcome that stuff. And and uh, because man, that's that's so much more prevalent than we think. And I'll tell you this, I believe suicide is so much more prevalent than we think. Well, we're figuring that out too. Or or or the the temptation or the thoughts of thoughts. Yeah.
SPEAKER_06I definitely think it's yeah, we I mean, we just had uh a young young man right out of college. Um battling identity, you know, college athlete, a kid, great family. Would have never in a million years guessed it, and that's what he said. He he there was there was a dark time in his life in his sophomore year of college where he he contemplated suicide. Like nobody's gonna miss me. Yeah, yeah. And and uh you know, that's that's when things changed. A phone call from his mom and and uh you know, he finally realized that his his identity was wrapped up in the wrong thing. You know, it was wrapped up in college baseball and not in Christ. And once he figured that out, he uh I mean the the transformation is truly remarkable to hear him hear him tell it. And you're talking about a 21, 22 year old kid. Yeah. So uh, you know, from the outside looks normal, fine, you know, got a great life, and you just never know what somebody's carrying on the inside. Yeah. And I think it's I think it's important um for those who are carrying those burdens that nobody sees is man to uh number one to pray. Uh number two, to not be afraid to talk to somebody about it. Right. Because that's where when you start to let that let out, where you did on your knees praying to God, just spewing your guts, you know, if if somebody's not to that point, but they can at least spew their guts to a friend, right, to a family member, to a pastor, uh, whoever it is, uh, I think they'll quickly realize that they've got a pretty good life living in the country that we live, the freedoms that we have. Um, and sometimes it's just a little all it takes is a little bit of a perspective shift, you know. And uh so it's important. But thank you for sharing everything, man. Yeah. A remarkable story. I mean, uh it's it's amazing how God has worked in your life and amazing that you're here, you know, today and that we're sitting at this table and and uh it's pretty powerful. So thank you.
SPEAKER_01Glad you're in Ohio, not Nebraska. Uh I knew I shouldn't have told you.
SPEAKER_06That's great. I'm sure nobody will talk about it.
SPEAKER_02Man, I'll have oh god. I hope nobody watches it.
SPEAKER_06Nobody will. Don't worry.
SPEAKER_02Well, I appreciate y'all having me on because uh it's like I said, it's first first podcast ever. So uh hope I did all right. You do good awesome. Okay.
SPEAKER_06All right, everybody.
Final Thanks And Outro
SPEAKER_06Like and share and continue to support us. We we greatly appreciate it. Go out and be tempered.
SPEAKER_00Hi, my name is Allie Schmidt. This is my goddamn hand Catron's Glass.
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SPEAKER_00Patrons, a clear choice.
SPEAKER_04I want to share something that's become a big part of the Be Tempered mission: Patreon. Now, if you've never used it before, Patreon is a platform where we can build community together. It's not just about supporting the podcast, it's about having a space where we can connect on a deeper level, encourage one another, and walk this journey of faith, resilience, and perseverance side by side. Here's how it works. You can join as a free member and get access to daily posts, behind-the-scenes updates, encouragement, and some things I don't always put out on other platforms. And if you feel called to support the mission financially, there are different levels where you can do that too. That support helps us keep producing the podcasts, creating gear, hosting events, and sharing stories that we believe can truly impact lives. And here's the cool part Patreon has a free app you can download right on your phone. It works just like Facebook or Instagram, but it's built specifically for our community. You'll be able to scroll through posts, watch videos, listen to content, and interact with others who are on the same journey. At the end of the day, this isn't just about content, it's about connection. It's about building something together. Not just me and Ben putting out episodes, but a family of people committed to growing stronger through real stories and real faith. So whether you just want to hop on as a free member or you feel called to support in a bigger way, Patreon is the door into that community. Because at the heart of Be Tempered has always been simple real stories, raw truth, resilient faith. So that even one person out there that hears what they need to hear, and Patreon helps make that possible.
