Collagen: My Favorite Protein

The episode focuses on the vital role collagen plays in skin health and various methods for preserving it as we age. Listeners learn about collagen banking, dietary influences, environmental factors affecting collagen levels, the importance of using retinoids, peptides, and in-office treatments to maintain skin vitality.

• Importance of collagen for skin structure and hydration 
• Factors that accelerate collagen breakdown 
• The concept of collagen banking for long-term preservation 
• Recommended skincare products and routines for collagen support 
• Role of peptides in stimulating collagen production 
• Holistic approaches to skincare and internal health 
• Practical tips to integrate into daily routines for healthier skin

Transcript

Understanding Collagen and Skin Health

Speaker 1 0:00

Welcome to Dermot Trotter Don't Swear About Skin Care where host Dr Shannon C Trotter, a board-certified dermatologist, sits down with fellow dermatologists and skin care experts to separate fact from fiction and simplify skin care. Let's get started.

Speaker 2 0:19

Welcome to the Dermot Trotter Don't Swear About Skin Care podcast. I have a special guest here on the show today, dr Jen Haley. She's a board certified dermatologist for over 20 years and she's been practicing medical, cosmetic and surgical dermatology all over the world, both as an officer in the US Navy and in private practice. Dr Haley believes that skin is a representation of internal health and by focusing on a holistic and integrative approach to health, the result is radiant, healthy skin. She currently advises multiple startups and global Fortune 500 companies, and her work focuses on teaching and empowering individuals to take charge of their own health through her philosophy of utilizing the rhythms of nature. So welcome to the podcast, dr Haley.

Speaker 3 1:06

Thank you.

Speaker 2 1:07

Thank you, dr Trotter, so good to be here and I'm really excited, you know, to have you come on today because we're going to talk about, I think, everyone's favorite protein. So you know, collagen, the thing that you know everyone wants more of, and it's how do we get it? Because, unfortunately, over time, as we know, that collagen just starts to go away for most of us and results in the things we don't love seeing in our skin. So can you give us a little background, jen, on just kind of what collagen is and why is it so important for our skin?

Speaker 3 1:36

Sure, of course, of course. Well, as you mentioned, it is the most abundant protein in the human body, so it is a protein. So remember, to make protein, you have to consume protein. To keep protein, we have to consume protein. I think we forget that often and it's one of those things we take for granted until it disintegrates a little bit.

Speaker 3 1:55

So it plays such a crucial role in the structure of really various tissues. But the skin, as we know, is the largest organ of the body, the largest visible organ of the body. So we really see any changes to the collagen on the skin in the form of wrinkles, fine lines and sagging as well, which nobody really wants. Besides structural support and elasticity, it also helps maintain hydration in the skin and, as I mentioned, reduces the appearance of wrinkles. So there's two things we want to focus on with collagen is minimizing the rate at which it degrades over time with collagen banking is sort of a novel new term that we're using and also to help support regeneration of the collagen as we age. So we have like a twofold approach when we're dealing with focusing on collagen, and when we use the word collagen, we're also talking about elastin, elastic tissue and the glycosaminoglycans, like hyaluronic acid in the dermal layer of the skin. It's sort of the structural support of the skin.

Speaker 2 3:04

You mentioned. You know collagen breaks down over time, normal part of aging. That we all kind of are, you know, in tune with and know that's going to happen. It's somewhat inevitable. But what are other factors that contribute to that collagen sort of, you know, lessening as we get older?

Speaker 3 3:18

Yeah, that's such a great question. So you know, as we age, our body becomes less efficient at producing collagen and the fibroblasts, which are the cells that produce collagen as well as elastic tissue in the skin. These cells undergo something called cellular senescence, where they don't function any longer, yet they're not killed and removed by the body. So if you imagine little zombies sitting around taking up space in this room, we wouldn't have much room to remove. And, moreover, these cellular senescent cells, they not only take up space but they also release these very inflammatory SASPs, which are basically messages that kind of destroy the healthy cells working around there. So a lot of complex science, but in simple terms, what's happening is our fibroblasts, the cells that are responsible for producing collagen in the skin. They don't become as efficient, they get a little lazy. Let's just be honest here. They get a little lazy, just like the rest of our body, and they don't turn over and we're not making new collagen. So the fact that we're not making new collagen is one part, but then the other part is the environment. So the environment we do have a little bit more control over in the fact that we know that UV rays or radiation, uv radiation, ultraviolet radiation is really a huge, huge contributor to degrading collagen. Other things are living in a smoggy environment with poor air quality, smoking same thing. You're just infusing your body with the worst air quality. These cause a lot of damaging reactive oxygen species that will break down collagen and really disorganizing it. And the disorganized collagen is what makes the wrinkles appear. So if we take a skin biopsy, we can't really see what a wrinkle looks like and really disorganizing it. And the disorganized collagen is what makes the wrinkles appear. So if we take a skin biopsy, we can't really see what a wrinkle looks like. It's just very disorganized collagen that when you make movements in your face it doesn't bounce back right.

Speaker 3 5:15

Other things in the environment that we have control over that can cause accelerated collagen breakdown include consumption of processed foods, particularly sugar and high glycemic foods. So sugar produces high glycemic foods like rice or pasta that our body converts into sugar pretty rapidly. It produces something called AGEs or advanced glycation end products, and these are basically circulating. That combine with the proteins in the body and makes them stiff and not resilient. So there we go with our stiff collagen that's no longer functional. And lastly but not leastly is stress. So we can see this with our presidents in the United States right, how quickly they age in the four years that they're president, and you can see when someone's had a hard life, and it's not necessarily what happens to us, it's how we respond. So we have the control over how we respond and we can train ourselves to be mindful Even simple things like breath work while you're driving, while you're waiting in line. No-transcript.

Speaker 2 6:33

So those are really excellent points you make, because I think a lot of people just think they can compartmentalize how life impacts them. So you mentioned, obviously, stress, environmental exposure, processed foods. You know the things we know that probably aren't great for our health, but I think a lot of people just don't understand they truly can have impact, even on skin. I think you know they associate it more with, oh, processed foods not great for the waistline or maybe for my heart, but my skin really. Or you know, even stress. I think some people think they're doing a good job of managing stress but don't really realize, you know, the impact it has on their skin and I think, highlighting that, like you just said, that's a really good point for people to put that together, that, however, things connected. You know kind of that holistic approach of skin that you can't really separate things out like some of us want to. You know, at times Right.

Speaker 2 7:20

With that whole concept now. Ok, you've kind of probably got some of us already. We know that collagen was going to break down. Now we know we're probably all doing things we shouldn't be. That's probably also helping expedite that breakdown of collagen. Can you talk a little bit more than what's this concept of collagen banking that has really taken off, because I think a lot of people are coming in saying, hey, I saw there's a product that even has collagen banking on it, or I read this article online, or I saw somebody on TikTok promoting it. What is it and what is its role for? Maybe helping somebody preserve their collagen, potentially.

Optimizing Collagen Preservation for Healthy Skin

Speaker 3 7:52

Yeah, I want to just take a step back briefly to your point about skin. So the reason I fell in love with dermatology and probably you also is because it really represents internal health. So people often think that dermatologists are just talking about skincare all day, but what we're really able to do is look at the skin as like the ultimate Sherlock Holmes, like what is going on inside the body. So when you have some sort of an inflammation or dermatitis on the skin whether it's rosacea or eczema or psoriasis, there pretty much is always something else going on deep below, because the skin is an organ just like all the other organs and it's showing what's going on on the inside. So it's pretty beautiful. And in the same token, we want to address the skin internally. So we don't want to just be slapping creams on and expecting things to be resolved. We really want to address everything in more of a holistic way. You know, and collagen banking creams are great. That's one part of the puzzle, but the full puzzle comes through an integrative approach inside, out, outside, in. So I want everyone to understand that it's little choices that we make every day that have a huge effect over time. It's sort of like if you start saving a dollar at age 10 every day, you're going to be a multimillionaire when you're 50. The same holds true for your skin. You know, eat that ice cream sundae for Christmas or once a month, but don't do it every day, right? Because that's when it can make a difference. So now with collagen banking basically it's just this concept of preserving collagen. So, instead of waiting until you know the wrinkles are really apparent and then trying to reverse them, it's more about preserving what you have and starting in your 20s and 30s. It's a long term strategy and we really just want to be doing this at every age, not just when you're twenties and thirties, but at every age. We want to preserve what we have and try to rebuild.

Speaker 3 9:50

So there's a few things. Obviously there's skincare products, which I'll let you dive into if you want to talk about those. Anything that can stimulate collagen production, like retinoids, retinol or prescription strength tretinoin. There's different types of retinoids. Vitamin C can help to stimulate collagen it's part of the pathway and peptides there are some peptides that are more effective than others, so the word peptides is interchangeable.

Speaker 3 10:18

There are specifically studied peptides. The second is hydrolyzed collagen protein orally, and we'll get into that. I'm sure it's always a hot topic of conversation. There's another controversial one, which I am an advocate for, which is red light therapy. It boosts mitochondria in the fibroblast to increase collagen production. And then there's in-office procedures like microneedling, and that stimulates collagen repair and reorganization as well, as some lasers can do that as well. And then we always, always want to focus on preventing that degradation by protecting ourself in the high value areas of our face, neck, chest, back of our hands, with daily UV protection, not just sunscreen but hat use if you're outside for a long period of time, and that's how I address collagen banking. How do you do that, shannon?

Speaker 2 11:12

Very similar. Yeah, I tell people you have a lot of options to bank that collagen and kind of the whole spectrum of what you just talked about. And you know, really talk with patients about. You know, topical retinoids we see that data. There's one that's FDA approved, you know, to help with fine lines and wrinkling. We can look at vitamin C. We can do it as a collection of options, depending upon how aggressive people want to go if they want to integrate topical therapy and with more in-office procedures or red light mass therapy at home.

Speaker 2 11:46

But that's my approach as well, that we kind of have all these options to put more of that, if you will, collagen in the bank, just to kind of, you know, give people that perspective. But I think what you brought up earlier was really important too is again just that integrative approach and those small choices have big impact, you know, for skin and health, kind of going down the line, especially as an osteopathic dermatologist, that's something that's ingrained in our training and looking at, you know, the person, you know from the whole standpoint of how you approach them and we see that impacted with skin. I do want to backtrack to you know you mentioned the peptides specifically. Do you mind commenting on the ones that if somebody were looking to kind of add that in sort of where you think the data is, that really you know, put you know the that where the money is best put at, they're going to be the best bang for their buck if they're going to do that.

Speaker 3 12:25

Absolutely. So I'm going to have to look at my notes for this, because, even though I am a board certified dermatologist, I want everyone to know that we don't expect you to know all of these words, so we're going to break this down. So there's so the peptides. Let's just talk about what are peptides. So peptides are chains of amino acids, so chains of amino acids that are either two of them combined together up to 50 makes it a peptide. Anything more than 50, now you're dealing with a protein. And what is protein? Collagen is protein, just as you mentioned in the beginning of this whole conversation. So peptides are basically small chains of amino acids, less than 50, more than 50 is a protein. And there's several peptides that have been shown to be beneficial in skincare. So most people have heard of the signal peptides like Matrixyl, which will be on the label as Palmitoyl Peptopeptide and palmitoyl oligopeptide. Okay, so these signal peptides they stimulate collagen and elastin production and have been shown in studies to improve skin firmness and reduce fine lines and wrinkles. So they basically are sending signals to say, hey, let's make more collagen, and that's how they work. So when we're looking at formulations, it gets tricky, because what the peptide does in a research study that's in vivo in the lab isn't necessarily what happens in your skin. So this is where it gets a little dicey, like are these ingredients at a high enough level and are they actually getting to where they need to be in the skin? And this is something we have a really hard time translating often in dermatology. The second type of peptide I want to talk about are copper peptides, ghkcu or copper tripeptide, and it's great for wound healing, improving skin elasticity and reducing inflammation. And I'm certified in peptides, like injectable peptides, and I love GHK-CU as an injectable peptide. It's not currently allowed to be compounded, according to the FDA since November of 2023. But I do see beautiful, beautiful transformations of skin and enhanced wound healing with GHK-CU. Topically, I have been less impressed. I think it's pretty good for wound healing, maybe post-procedure or something like that, but I don't personally use it for wrinkles or and I wouldn't spend the high price point on it that I've seen out there.

Speaker 3 15:01

The next one are enzyme inhibitor peptides. Enzyme inhibitor peptides, and these are basically soybean and rice derived peptides and they prevent collagen breakdown. So in times of inflammation whether it's from environmental insults or internal inflammation, from food or smoking or stress our body produces something called MMPs, or matrix metalloproteinases, and these break down collagen and we need them. We need some of them because our skin is constantly remodeling, sort of like the bones in our body Break down, rebuild, break down, rebuild.

Speaker 3 15:38

But when the balance is off and the MMPs, especially three and nine, get too high, what happens is you can even get like after acne. You can get a little divot there from all that inflammation and that's from the MMPs being responsible. So these enzyme inhibitor peptides from soybean and rice can help minimize collagen breakdown. There's two more there's hexapeptide 10, which has been shown to help firm and tighten sagging skin, and then there's oligopeptide 68 that can help actually reduce dark spots and even out skin tones. So, as I mentioned, the formulation really matters and even the pH and what you use before and after to see how effective these are going to be on the skin. What are your thoughts?

Speaker 2 16:27

No, I completely agree with you. I think that's you know where. You know. The topicals versus injectables. I think the advantage, obviously, with the injectables too, you can get right where you need to get.

Speaker 2 16:36

To be going to make that impact, as you mentioned, can be a little more challenging with topical therapy as well, as if the skin isn't prepped appropriately, you don't have the penetration you want and you know, just trying to see the benefit, but it's, I think it's overwhelming and confusing because there are all these new things and people do throw around the term peptide, you know, just like any other term, and to know specifically the ones you mentioned, like you know, it's hard to know every single ingredient, but to have some of those in mind of what you could look for, I think is definitely valuable. You know, in the last, you know, few minutes, like if somebody came in and they said okay, you know, you know, dr Haley, I know that you, I want to. You know, preserve my collagen. I want to do a routine that really would help, you know, maybe regenerate new collagen. Plus, you know, you know, preserve what I've got. What would you recommend to a patient?

Speaker 3 17:28

you preserve what I've got? What would you recommend to a patient you know to kind of do as a part of a skincare regimen to make that happen? Yes, so the question would be like what's their budget? Are they okay having any downtime or do they, you know, no pain, no gain, right? So I mean, initially, I think every single person should be on some form of skincare, and we need to discuss diet and exercise, because even if you have an immaculate diet and you don't exercise and have healthy blood flow, you're not going to have nutrients delivered to your skin and you're not gonna have the lymphatics clean out the garbage, right. So we need to have healthy blood flow as part of this whole recipe. So, at the very least, topically, I do want someone to be using a vitamin C product in the morning and that helps prevent some of the collagen breakdown as well as promote collagen growth.

Speaker 3 18:13

Before a sunscreen and then SPF 30 plus every single day before leaving the house to the face, the neck and the chest. And even if you're not planning on going in the sun, you still need to do that because the incidental light coming in through the windows is UVA rays, which are very deep penetrating and aging and very damaging to the collagen. And also, we're walking at least 10 minutes in and out of buildings to the car every day. So 10 minutes a day going back to the compound effect is 52 plus hours a year, right? No one would go to the beach for 52 hours without wearing sunscreen. So this compound effect is real and all it takes is a few minutes right after you brush your teeth to apply the sunscreen. So that is essential in the morning.

Speaker 3 19:02

At night, cleanse a retinol and then maybe your peptide moisturizing cream, so you can get both things. But I think three steps morning and night are great. Now, if someone wants to reverse some collagen breakdown whether it's acne scars or whether it's just wrinkles, and it's like, hey, now there's technology and I want to do something about it. Now we're looking at in-office procedures like microneedling, resurfacing, lasers, things like that. So that's really where I start. I want to know what their budget is, what their downtime is, what their tolerance for procedures is and at the very least, they're going to be on skincare, even if they do in-off office procedures, because you don't go to the dentist every year and expect them to clean your teeth and not brush your teeth at home.

Speaker 2 19:47

And the same holds true with skincare. I love that analogy. You're right. Like good skincare is the foundation, I think, for everything. And plus I tell patients you're going to invest in something expensive, like in an office procedure, and you're going to go that extra mile, you want to maintain that. Just like you buy an expensive car, you got to do the maintenance on it. You're not going to let that run down if you spend all that money on it. So same concept, I think, applies to skincare in general. It does help maintain, I think, the investment of doing those procedures and serves as a great foundation.

Speaker 2 20:15

Jen, this has been a wonderful conversation. You know, I think collagen for a lot of people really scares them. What can happen? We probably did frighten a few of you out there as well, but I think hopefully we've shown you that a more comprehensive approach to your skincare can result, you know, in collagen that can potentially be preserved and maybe even regenerated a little bit from the help of your board. Certified dermatologist. I want to thank you so much for coming on the podcast today and for our listeners if they want to find you, do you mind sharing with them where they can locate you on social media or online?

Speaker 3 20:44

Absolutely yeah. I'm at a point in my career where it's time to give back and serve people and empower you all to take charge of your own health Right, and we want to do that through information. So, first of all, it's never too late. It's never, ever too late to start, so you can connect with me. I have a podcast. It's never, ever too late to start, so you can connect with me. I have a podcast, radiance Revealed, with Dr Jen Haley, and Instagram is great for me, dr Jen Haley, just D-R-J-E-N-H-A-L-E-Y, and I'm also pretty active on LinkedIn at Jennifer.

Speaker 2 21:15

Haley MD. Well, thank you so much again for coming on the podcast and stay tuned for the next episode of Dermot Trotter.

Speaker 1 21:24

Don't Swear About Skincare. Thanks for listening to Dermot Trotter. For more about skincare, visit DermotTrottercom. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with anyone who needs a little skincare sanity. Until next time, stay skin smart.