Derm-It Trotter! Don't Swear About Skincare.
Feeling frustrated or overwhelmed with everything skin? Does the skinformation overload make you want to swear about skincare? Join Dr. Shannon C. Trotter, board certified dermatologist, as she talks with fellow dermatologists and colleagues in skincare to help separate fact from fiction and simplify the world of skin. After listening, you won’t swear about skincare anymore!
Derm-It Trotter! Don't Swear About Skincare.
Hair Care is Skincare
Join Dr. Trotter and Dr. Iris Rubin this week to dive further into the world of hair! But it's not hair loss this week, it's hair care. Listen to learn how our skin and hair are connected, and how to care for them both!
Welcome to Dermot Trotter Don't Swear About Skin Care where host Dr Shannon C Trotter, a board certified dermatologist, sits down with fellow dermatologists and skincare experts to separate fact from fiction and simplify skincare.
Speaker 2:Let's get started, welcome to the Dermot Trotter Don't Swear About Skin Care podcast.
Speaker 2:Today we're gonna tackle a topic that everyone wants to know more about your hair and how do we care about it and I've got a great expert on today to talk more with you and get all those details that you're dying to know. So I have Dr Iris Rubin, the founder of Scene, a patented, award-winning good for skin hair care line that's science-backed and mission-driven, and she's here today to talk with us more. She received her undergraduate degree with honors from Stanford University and her medical degree from Harvard Medical School. She did her dermatology residency at the University of Chicago and Harvard Medical School and served as academic chief resident at Harvard. She completed a laser fellowship at Massachusetts General Hospital and Wellman Center for Photomedicine Prior to launching SANE. Dr Rubin's previous positions included medical director of the Dermatologic and Vascular Laser Surgery Program at Children's National Medical Center in DC and dermatologist in Massachusetts General Hospital and a faculty member at Harvard Medical School. And now we're so lucky to have her here on the podcast today to talk about hair care. Welcome to the podcast, dr Rubin.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. Please call me Arise, and I hope you don't mind, dr Trotter, if I call you Shannon, but yeah it's exciting to be here.
Speaker 2:I'm a fan of what you're doing and it's a real privilege. Well, thank you, arise. I really appreciate that because you know, as we were talking before getting on this podcast, I feel like hair care sometimes gets missed. You know we talk a lot about skincare. You know the title this hair care is skincare that we need to dive in a little bit more and really educate the public on what's good for their hair, because there's a lot of information out there you know good but also some bad information, so we're going to talk more about that so we can really give everyone out there a good idea of how to take care of their hair, because it's just important as anything else on your skin. Absolutely. I want to find out if you would kind of just briefly talk about how you perceive or think about, like hair and scalp, how do you think about it as a part of skincare and what motivated you to think you know a little bit more about it and get into developing this product line.
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So. I actually never in a million years thought I would launch a product line. I was once called in at a private practice I worked at after moving from Boston. I was at Mass General and I went to private practice and reprimanded for not selling enough product. But for me to sell a product, I just really have to believe in it.
Speaker 3:And my personal story is that I was actually getting acne from my hair care products. It was a surprising cause. It wasn't the only cause of acne, but I'm prone to hormonal acne and I would notice that every time when I would go to the salon and get my hair done, my hair would look great but my skin would break out. And it took me a while to recognize this pattern, because when you use a product, it often won't break you out right away. In my case, it can take five, six, sometimes, you know, even seven days to cause a breakout.
Speaker 3:And I started to have to make this choice between my hair looking good and my skin looking good. You know, and as a dermatologist, it's not really great for your credibility If you've got acne. I mean, you know I don't think we should be expected to have perfect skin, but you know, having significant breakouts wasn't great. So I really made this kind of aha moment that what we put on our hair ends up on our skin and we've got a bunch of science actually showing that even shampoo and conditioner you rinse and forget about it, but your skin actually doesn't. So we've published in Journal of Drugs and Dermatology that you know, hours after using shampoo and conditioner it can stay on your scalp, your face, your body, and so, as a dermatologist, if you use a product and it can stay on your skin for hours, to me that makes it part of a skincare regimen.
Speaker 3:And so that's why I think of hair care as skincare. And you know, when we talk about products leaving a residue, that's not necessarily a bad thing. I mean my face moisturizer, I think, is about $100. That's intentional residue. But hair care residue on the skin often isn't skin friendly and can clog pores, can have irritants and allergens. And then the second part I think about why hair care is really important from the dermatologist lens is that your hair follicles are literally the manufacturing plant for your hair and they live in your scalp, which is skin. So optimizing the health of your scalp really just makes sense because that just supports healthy hair follicles and healthy hair growth.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a really good point Because that's kind of like you think of your, you know your scalp. You go almost like if your hair follicles are growing, something like that's your soil, you know you want good soil, right, if you're going to have a fruitful garden, and so if we're not taking good care of that scalp skin, nourishing those hair follicles, making sure they're healthy, how are we going to have great hair, right? So I think that's a great way you approach that, that because it's one of the things I want to highlight too. You know people listen to our podcast may not realize.
Speaker 2:You know, as dermatologists, we specialize in hair conditions and treatments of the scalp. You know some people think, oh, I thought I just would ask my you know, my salon artist or my beautician those questions. I didn't even think to come to my dermatologist to get tips on those things, and I think you're really highlighting how this is important for us to address. When people come in, you know, I think they always wonder you know, what are just some basic recommendations for hair care routine, Like what type of shampoo should I use or maybe avoid? Are there certain ingredients that I should look for, or do I need a conditioner and are there certain things I should be looking at, because there's so many brands, obviously and we're going to talk obviously about Seen but what are some general guidelines you give people when they come in the office?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely, you know. I mean, I think the most important and obviously I created Seen because I think that it's a real confidence injustice that you should have to compromise your skin's health for your hair care. But I think the most important thing is a product that works for your hair, scalp and skin, because your hair, scalp and skin are really like their one system. It's not possible to use a hair care product and not have it get on your scalp and skin. So you know, if you're lucky enough not to be acne prone, not to have sensitive skin, scalp issues or eczema, you know, use whatever you want. That makes your hair look great. But if you're like many of us, you know that have one of those issues, like people with acne that's my case you want to make sure everything you use, head to toe, is non-comedogenic, meaning won't clog pores. So that's your skincare your makeup, your sunscreen, but also your hair care. And I think you know, for those who are sensitive skin or who have eczema, also making sure that your hair care is free of like irritants and certain common allergens is really important, you know. I think also, hair care regimen just depends on your scalp type and your hair type, and people's scalp may be dry, naturally, or normal or oily, and part of that is genetics, part of that is products that we use, hormones, even stress can influence that. And then you know whether you have got curly hair or straight hair. All of those factors influence.
Speaker 3:You know what your hair care regimen is and people will ask me well, how often should I wash my hair? And there really isn't one answer that fits everyone for that, but I will say it is. There is a such a thing as washing too little and not often enough, like it is important to wash your hair periodically. For some people that may be every day, for some people that may be once a week or even less often. But using dry shampoo or going like extended periods without washing your hair, I think isn't optimal for your scalp, because you really do need to clean out the follicles from your natural sebum, from products. And then you know, for most people, conditioner is important. Not for everyone, it really just is hydrating, anti-breakage, anti-frizz. But you know, I don't think hair care has to be complicated, but a basic regimen of making sure you wash your hair periodically and, for most people, a conditioner.
Speaker 2:Are there any particular ingredients for people that are looking at shampoos you recommend they avoid? And specifically, I think a lot of people come in. They're like oh, do I definitely need to use a sulfate-free shampoo? I've heard sulfates they're evil, they're bad. I shouldn't be using anything that has that type of component or ingredient in it.
Speaker 3:Is that typically what you recommend or do you feel like there's value in that? Yeah, so I mean, I'm someone who actually doesn't. Really I think there's. It's not always black and white with ingredients and I don't really like to say this is always bad. So sulfates you know a shampoo, the base of it is a surfactant, which is a cleansing agent, which is really actually meant primarily to cleanse your scalp, which is another reason why it makes sense for shampoo scalp-less skin to be developed by a dermatologist. But sulfates are a bit harsh and the reasons I would say to go sulfate-free is if you have dry hair, dry scalp, dry skin, sensitive skin or actually if you color your hair, sulfates can cause color to fade quickly. So in general, I'm a fan of sulfate-free, but I don't think that sulfates need to be avoided for everyone. They can just be a bit drying to the scalp and hair and again cause color to fade. They can be irritating as well.
Speaker 2:And I think it's important to kind of back up what you said too, like how this doesn't have to be so black and white. I think people are always told one thing and they feel like it's set in stone. But you're right, there's a lot of shades of gray on what ingredients people can use, because some people do tolerate those ingredients OK, and then other people know not a good plan, like you mentioned, because of having dry scalp or other issues, and sometimes I'm biased, as much as you know. I try to avoid some of you know if it's sulfate free, sometimes it's healthier, maybe for my hair if it's dry or breaking. But I do love how that stuff lathers. I got to admit I am a lather girl for shampoo, so it's one of the things that sucks me into a product. So we're going to talk about seeing in a moment and, like gosh, do I have to give all these things up to have good hair care? And I think what you're pointing out is no, not necessarily at all. And also how you're highlighting.
Speaker 2:You know, I think this is something that people come all the time. They say, well, I don't wash my hair every day. I mean, that's, that's bad, I would never do that I don't know every day. I think you dispelling kind of that myth is really important that for some people that fits and it's not necessarily going to do the harm that I think that's been perpetuated out there. And again, if you're using harsh products every day, maybe a different story, but if you're using healthy products and doing it appropriately, if it's right for you, that might be good. So I like that you kind of brought that up as well. Are there other some things you feel like people think about hair care that you feel like you know, gosh, that's just not really true. That's a total myth that I'd love to bust or really educate people on what comes to your mind when you kind of think of those myth busters for hair care.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and Shannon, you said so many good things that I'll get back to, but I think one of the myths is that you wash your hair too often, it can cause hair loss, and so you know there's going to be signs if you're washing too often. If you're over washing, your scalp might start to feel dry and irritated. It's an interesting thing, though A dry scalp can also be, you know, seborrheic dermatitis, which benefits from washing more often. But you know, you'll know if you're irritating your scalp and washing it too often. But I think the idea that if you wash your hair every day, that it can cause hair loss is a myth that is worth dispelling. It's normal to lose, you know, 50, even up to a hundred hairs a day. The hair goes through its natural cycle, so I think that's that's a big one.
Speaker 3:I think another myth is that a hair care regimen has to be complicated. You know, even though I own a hair care line, like I'm, I'm a minimalist with products in general, and I think it's about using the right products, not more products. I think often people might use certain products and it creates an issue Like, let's say, you're using hair care products that are irritating your scalp and so then you're putting products on to try and you know, fix that like this cycle, and that happens in skincare. You know a lot where you know someone may use a product that's causing them to break out or have irritants or allergens and then putting more products on. So I think another myth is that it has to be complicated. It doesn't.
Speaker 2:Really good points, because I do think people come in and automatically assume what you just mentioned, you know, and talking about that, that they I don't know, it's just these things that get perpetuated and places like this. You know, social media and people have heard these things and is it really true. So I love that we're kind of addressing this as well. So, in general, for just scalp health, because I think that's what we're talking about, you know, I think shampoo, people think, oh, I'm just washing my hair. But you know, really educate them. I washing that scalp and really cleaning that area out and cleaning out the hair follicles. What are some general like tips or steps that you recommend, you know from anyone?
Speaker 3:no-transcript. Yeah, absolutely, I think number one is just making sure that you wash your hair at some frequency. You are aggravating the follicles. That can affect follicle health and hair health. So, you know, just making sure that you're washing at a frequency that's right for you. You know, I do think conditioner is beneficial because it can help seal the cuticle, reduce frizz, reduce breakage for most people and just making sure that your hair care regimen is the right regimen for your hair and also for your skin. So there's, you know, all kinds of different hair care regimens, depending on if your hair is dry, if it's, you know, if it's curly, if it's oily. So you know, it's hard to give one recommendation for everyone, but I think again, I'm I'm a fan of just keeping it simple, using products that you know are for your hair type, respect your scalp and and your skin.
Speaker 3:I do want to go back to I like what you said about, like the, the not having to compromise, you know, with the sulfate free, and and I think you can get products, actually that foam that are, that are sulfate free. But I'm I'm the same as you, even though I know, as a dermatologist, that if it's not foaming it's still working. I don't like it. And with Seen we have scented products and we have fragrance-free. We offer a choice and I think it's also a lot about just choice and what works for you.
Speaker 3:I personally use our scented products because for me that's a big part of the hair experience. I enjoy the scent in the shower. My business partner and brother-in-law will only use our fragrance-free products and so many people will only use fragrance-free. But I think just having the choice of a product that works for you and another point that I would raise, because we were talking about avoiding sulfates and the potential irritation is that everyone's skin scalp is, is, is is different and so someone, let's say, with sensitive skin, may react. One person may react to sulfates, one may not like it's very individual. Just because you have I mean generally, if you have sensitive skin, I would avoid sulfates. But just the whole concept that if you are sensitive, you know what you react to could be different compared to someone else.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think I like what you said. You know and reiterating, you know what you react to could be different compared to someone else. Yeah, and I think I like what you say. You know and reiterating, you know it's kind of to the individual. You know what works for you because there isn't a one size fit all.
Speaker 2:So I love that you have, you know, opportunities for choice in your product line, because I am somebody as much as, yes, we promote, you know, sometimes leaving that fragrance out or going, you know, without fragrance or unscented or fragrance free, or we recommend gentle products. I got to admit, you know, sometimes, like I mentioned, I it's psychological, there's something about that lather that I love, and so sometimes I have a little bit of tougher skin, you know. So I might be able to get away with doing something like that, but somebody else may not. So love that scene offers that variety. So in our last line, a few minutes here that we're going to talk about, I want to really find out what motivated you to develop scene and can you touch upon, kind of, some of the products you offer and how they might benefit somebody for their hair care routine?
Speaker 3:Yeah, absolutely. So you know, again, my story was that I'm acne prone. I'm 50. I'm still acne prone, actually, which is great for product development. We're always. We have a huge innovation pipeline, so always developing new products.
Speaker 3:But it was just this. What I really think is a confidence in justice, like the fact that you could be doing all the right things with your skincare, seeing a dermatologist or not, but then undoing it with your hair care without even realizing it. To me it's like you know if you're going to eat a bag of Oreos versus an organic salad, like know what you're doing. And I'm just for some people, like their hair care can really be wreaking havoc on their skin without them realizing it, and in my case it was acne. But we know that hair products can contribute to scalp issues, can contribute to eczema, flares, even to hair shedding. So it really just motivated me because I just it felt like it needed to happen.
Speaker 3:Like once I realized this connection between hair care and skincare, one of the first things that I did was actually publish this study showing that hair products can leave a residue on the skin for hours and then do an acne study a dermatologist graded acne study because I was curious, like you know, how significant of this is it that hair care can affect people with acne. And it turns out in a dermatologist graded study we gave scene for eight weeks to 27 patients and 70% of those with body acne had improvement in their skin and 52% with face acne had improvement. So it's a significant number of people who are dealing with acne who can have their hair products contribute. And again, we're not saying it's the cause of acne. But if you're acne prone, why would you bathe in pork, clogging ingredients in the shower like on a daily basis, without realizing it is really the key.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:And the same. The same with eczema and the same with sensitive skin. So, again, everything seen comes either fragrance-free and then a lot of our products also come scented. It's really hard to find great fragrance-free products that people want to use, that give you that salon type experience. All of our products are clean, vegan, color safe, have anti-breakage, anti-frizz benefits. Fragrance-free is the National Eczema Association's deal of approval and I think something that's unique about our fragrance free products is that we have a whole line of products. So there's a conditioner, a deeper conditioner, a leave-in conditioner, magic serum, you know, blowout cream, just a whole number of products. And when I was talking about the hair care regimen, the one thing that I did want to mention is I do think that anyone who heat styles like don't forget your heat protectant, because that's just really important just to keeping your hair healthy, you know. But just having being able to offer good for skin hair care that people actually want to use and love, just for the hair experience has just been really gratifying.
Speaker 2:Wow, I mean I think you know you're really showing how you know the relevance, you know, I think, for our listeners out there that have not really thought about you know their scalp care as a part of their skincare and you're right that contributing factor to acne why would you even take the risk? You know most of us we're not going to eat that chocolate but there might even be a risk that a zit might pop up, so why even introduce products? But the connection that you made, I think, for people to understand that that's even a possibility, is fantastic. And really what you highlight with your products, the variety of products. You have the opportunity you know not to add to other skin conditions.
Speaker 2:That approval with a eczema foundation, you know seal of approval that's fantastic. And then you know also, too, that you can kind of have your cake and eat it too. For us Scented gals that want to bring that on board and, again, not everyone can get away with that. But I want to just thank you for coming on, iris. This was fantastic just to go over how hair care truly is skincare for our listeners out there, if they want to find out more about you or about scene and your products, where can they locate you online?
Speaker 3:yeah, absolutely, and thank you so much for the opportunity. Helloscenecom is our website. We're also sold in Ulta and our Instagram is at Scene Skin and Hair and you know, we're just, we're thrilled. We get feedback all the time about Scene actually being life-changing, game-changing, like people who thought all along their skin was the problem when it was their hair care. Again, this is not the cure for all skin conditions, but I think there's millions of people who don't realize the impact of their hair care on their skin and I love what you said about, you know, just the no compromise, because it took us over four years to launch.
Speaker 3:I didn't want the products to be anything other than what people would want to use. We intentionally don't scream acne, eczema, sensitive skin on the products. They are products that look beautiful in the shower. They just look like elevated, you know, smarter products that are dermatologists developed. Why wouldn't a dermatologist, you know, in retrospect develop hair care that's good for the scalp and skin too? I wish I had you seen as a teenager when I was slathering my face in benzoyl peroxide and everything I could find to try and curb the breakouts. But yeah, it's been really it's been exciting to just get the feedback and the support from dermatologists, it's been amazing.
Speaker 2:Well, you're so right and we're all lucky that scene's here now so we can all experiment with it, and I've had the opportunity to try it as well, and it's fantastic. No, that's not a paid endorsement. If people are asking Love Iris's products, they're fantastic, so definitely check them out, and thank you so much for joining us and stay tuned for the next episode of Dermot Trotter. Don't Swear About Skin Care.
Speaker 1:Thanks for listening to Dermot Trotter. For more about skin care, visit DermotTrottercom. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review and share this podcast with anyone who needs a little skincare sanity. Until next time, stay skin smart.
