Derm-it Trotter! Don't Swear About Skincare.
Feeling frustrated or overwhelmed with everything skin? Does the skinformation overload make you want to swear about skincare? Join Dr. Shannon C. Trotter, board certified dermatologist, as she talks with fellow dermatologists and colleagues in skincare to help separate fact from fiction and simplify the world of skin. After listening, you won’t swear about skincare anymore!
Derm-it Trotter! Don't Swear About Skincare.
From Anti-Aging To Skin Longevity With Vitamin C
Sun, pollution, and even your phone screen constantly stress your skin. At the Science of Skin Summit, Dr. Patti Farris broke down what actually works to defend against that daily onslaught—and why vitamin C remains the MVP when formulated and used correctly. We translate the science into plain English, explaining how free radicals damage collagen and DNA, how oxidative stress shows up as wrinkles and brown spots, and why topical vitamin C outperforms diet alone by directly saturating skin and complementing SPF against visible and infrared light.
Dr. Farris also walks through how to pick the right formula: L-ascorbic acid for potency, THD ascorbate for sensitive skin, and the powerhouse combo of vitamins C + E + ferulic acid for all-day antioxidant defense. Expect clear, practical takeaways—a morning routine that starts with antioxidant serum, ends with mineral sunscreen, and shifts your mindset from “anti-aging” to everyday skin resilience.
But when the these environmental aggressors are going on the skin, they create what are called free radicals, these unstable oxygen molecules. Having a good diet full of antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables is absolutely essential.
SPEAKER_01:Is there a recommendation we touched on a little bit just for concentration? Because I think people are sometimes thrown off.
SPEAKER_00:If there's a concentration that's shown to be the most beneficial, welcome to Dermotrotter, Don't Swear About Skin Care, where host Dr. Shannon C. Trotter, a board-certified dermatologist, sits down with fellow dermatologists and skincare experts to separate fact from fiction and simplify skincare. Let's get started.
SPEAKER_01:Welcome to the Dermotrotter Don't Swear About Skin Care podcast. I'm excited to be here today because we're coming live from the Science of Skin Summit. And I've got a special guest here with me today, Dr. Patricia Ferris, who's co-founder of the conference and an expert in all things skin. You will see that she has a lot of information to provide us today, and we're going to talk tackle antioxidants. So welcome to the podcast.
SPEAKER_02:Thank you for having me, and thank you for being at the summit.
SPEAKER_01:Well, thank you for the invitation. Just on a side note, it's been an amazing experience meeting new people, networking, and just seeing all the innovation that's going on. And what I want to talk more about today in the area of your expertise, research, and interests, antioxidants in the skin, but specifically vitamin C that we'll dive into. But first, I wanted to know if you could just give a little bit of background on antioxidants. Why are they so important for skin health?
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. I mean, our skin protects itself from ultraviolet light and pollutants with antioxidants. Vitamin C is the most plentiful antioxidant in the skin. But unfortunately, our bodies cannot make vitamin C. It's one of the essential vitamins, meaning that we have to either ingest it through our diet. And of course, you think first of fruit, you think of citrus, but it's in lots of leafy green vegetables and other things as well. But we also are fortunate that we can put vitamin C on the skin topically, and that vitamin C can be absorbed through the skin and we can get all of those antioxidant benefits.
SPEAKER_01:So when you talk about antioxidant, if for our listeners are like, I don't even really know what that really means. Like what's happening, you know, maybe at that cellular level, like what is the role of an antioxidant for skin health?
SPEAKER_02:Such a great question. So we know that when the body is under uh aggressors, environmental aggressors, whether it's UV light, and we talk a lot more now about pollutants as well. But when the these environmental aggressors are going on the skin, they create what are called free radicals, these unstable oxygen molecules. And I always tell people, think of them like ping pong balls. You know, they're pinging around in your skin and they're damaging proteins like collagen and elastin. They're damaging DNA. We know that when oxidative stress hits DNA, what happens? It mutates. And that is the beginning of skin cancer, unfortunately. And so all of these things can be damaged by these ping pong balls bouncing around in the skin. They can also be quelched, as we call them. I say the antioxidants are like Pac-Man, and they eat up and they neutralize all of those free radical molecules. So it's got to be a balance between free radical formation and antioxidants. And once the free radicals start outnumbering Pac-Man, they begin to cause what we call oxidative stress. And this is when we see the damage that happens to the skin. We know that under those conditions, the skin begins to break collagen and elastin molecules down. We start to see wrinkling and sagging. We also see pigmentation formation. Pigment formation is an oxidative reaction. So we start seeing brown spots and all of those things that you and I, as dermatologists, recognize as uh the clinical signs and symptoms of sun damage and photoaging.
SPEAKER_01:So that's impressive because I think people don't realize the amount of damage that's being done. And I really like that you commented on pollutants because I think there's a lot of attention now that people are thinking, okay, if I'm going to do vitamin C, maybe there's a role, obviously, in the morning application, which we'll talk a little bit more about in a moment. I think a lot of people might be out there listening thinking, well, what's the difference if I'm taking maybe a vitamin C supplement or if I'm just drinking some orange juice versus directly putting a vitamin C on my skin? Is there a difference in the value it can bring for your health or for skin?
SPEAKER_02:I mean, I think, of course, having a good diet full of antioxidant-rich fruits and vegetables is absolutely essential. But remembering when you ingest something, it goes all through the body. So some of that vitamin C ends up in the skin, but a great deal of it also ends up in other organ systems. The beauty of our organ, the skin, is that we can directly apply that vitamin C. It can penetrate through the skin and just beef up the antioxidant defense system of the skin.
SPEAKER_01:And thinking in those terms, then people are looking around and said, okay, you sold me. I think I want to bring vitamin C into my skincare regimen. How do you help them navigate? And maybe people don't even know that there's different types of vitamin C. Could you walk us through the different types and maybe if there's a better opportunity to use one versus the other in circumcer certain circumstances as well?
SPEAKER_02:So, without a doubt, the active form of vitamin C is L-ascorbic acid. It is a water-soluble vitamin. It is the active form within the cell. So there are many products in the marketplace that contain L ascorbic acid. I mean, the first one that comes to mind is the most famous, C. E. ferulic by Skin Pseuticals. And that is a long time tested, extensively studied vitamin C. But it's not the cheapest guy on the block. Okay. So I understand that some people can't afford to keep up with C. E. ferulic, but it's a good product. And what happened when C. E. ferrulic was developed is it was developed by a dermatologist, the late Dr. Sheldon Pinnell. He was at Duke University. And what Pinnell did for us is he taught us how to stabilize aloscorbic acid. The early forms of aloscorbic acid in creams and lotions basically were turning colors because they couldn't stabilize the vitamin C. Very important. So Chanel figured out what he calls now, they were patented the Duke formulation parameters, what the concentration should be. And that's about 10, 15 to 20%. The pH has to be quite low, like around 4, 4.2. And so he figured out how to stabilize it in formulation. And that's so important because unstable forms of vitamin C have no antioxidant capability at all. To sort of circumvent that problem, cosmetic companies and formulators started turning to other forms of vitamin C. So you might find magnesium ascorable phosphate or sodium ascorable phosphate. But one of the most popular is tetrahexaldecaloscorbate, THDA, as we call it. And the reason the formulators and cosmetic companies love it is because it's very stable, it's lipid soluble, and you know as well as I do, lipid soluble goes through the skin way easier than water soluble does. And it's also very gentle. It can be used at higher concentrations because it's delivered at a neutral pH. The acidic pH that we have to use to deliver all ascorbic acid can be irritating. So tetrahexaldecal really kind of took over the marketplace when it came and it's used quite extensively.
SPEAKER_01:I think it's just fun to say, too. Tetrahexal. Tetrahexaldecal ascorbic. I mean, it took me about three years to learn how to say it, quite frankly. I call it THDA. Do you feel like with those different options that you that the efficacy is relatively the same? Like do you feel like there's a trade-off if you're doing something more tolerable for outcomes?
SPEAKER_02:So THDA must be converted to L ascorbic acid because it has to, we have to release that. But you know, because these are usually uh so easily formulated, you and at high concentration, you're pretty much guaranteed that a percentage of it is going to turn to L ascorbic acid. And there's plenty of studies of products with THDA in them, and they can, you know, do all the wonderful things that vitamin C does. And right now we're just talking about photoprotection. And there's a lot of other things that vitamin C does in the skin, of course.
SPEAKER_01:Well, let's talk about those. What are some of the other roles that vitamin C plays in the skin?
SPEAKER_02:So, vitamin C, of course, it's a cofactor for the enzymes that basically make the collagen molecules, the prolyol and lysyl hydroxylases. So it's essential for collagen formation. That's why people who don't have collagen, I mean, don't have high vitamin C's, have problems in their skin. You have to have it to make collagen. The second thing it does is it lightens the skin. It's actually a tyrosinase inhibitor, so it blocks that enzyme that creates melanin or pigment. So it's a nice skin lightener as well. It has some anti-inflammatory properties. It's been looked at in conditions like acne because it is an anti-inflammatory, can reduce redness. Sometimes you can use it in patients who have things like um rosacea and conditions such as that. So it's really a multi-functioning molecule that, yes, it acts as a photoprotector, but it also has these really nice benefits for improving the appearance of skin. And who doesn't want to get rid of their pigmentation and the wrinkles all over? That's a win-win. I mean, it's a total win-win. The other thing about topical antioxidants, sort of going back to the story of ultraviolet light, we now know that there are very, very important effects of those longer wavelengths of light. We're talking about blue light. This is the light you get from your devices that we have our faces stuck in front of all day. And also from the sun, visible light and even infrared, both blue light and infrared actually increase your oxidative stress and your production of reactive oxygen species. Sunscreens do a great job in the UV spectrum. But as we go into the longer wavelengths of light, like visible light and infrared, sunscreens no longer help you. So we know that we have to protect against those longer wavelengths of light. This is another great reason to add a topical antioxidant into your regimen in the morning under your sunscreen. So you're getting that good UV protection with the longer wavelengths of light as well.
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think a couple things stick out to me from what you just said. One, you mentioned that you could even use it if you have rosacea or sensitive skin. Because I think there's a little bit of misperception out there about I can't use it if I have a sensitive skin type. Now, knowing about the different types of vitamin C, I think you've opened up people's eyes a little bit that they could be a candidate for actually using.
SPEAKER_02:So tetrahexaldeckle. Yeah. Because Gorbate is very good for a patient like that. Neutral pH, pretty gentle on the skin, and gives you some anti-inflammatory activity. And we know you have to protect against all wavelengths of light. So even if you have rosacea or whatever, unfortunately, there's always a trade-off, as you know. We don't want anything that's going to irritate or increase redness, but those are really that's where these THDA and some of these other uh types of vitamin C really can come in.
SPEAKER_01:Important point because I do think sensitive skin folks, rosacea skin, they feel like they're sometimes excluded from benefits of some of our anti-aging or rejuvenation type products. So this is a great solution for them. Yes. One of the questions I get a lot is what is the value? Is there a difference in using maybe a vitamin C serum versus a vitamin C that might be already added into your sunscreen to enhance that, you know, some protection? Do you think there's a reason to choose one or the other? Do you feel like they're equally important to how they might value the skin? Or is there any studies to support one way or the other?
SPEAKER_02:You know, there are studies showing that obviously topical vitamin C and combination products like C E ferolic work great alone with, you know, to quench, you know, in terms of free radical, um quenching free radicals. But I think it's important to say that there are also studies showing that vitamin C and other antioxidants as well, added to sunscreens, provide added benefits. So those are kind of easier products to use, but I have to be honest, I think I have my own inherent bias. I really like a vitamin C serum. I think you take that little dropper and you put your serum on first, you get a nice coat of whatever antioxidant. And there's millions of other ones too. Of course, we know, besides just vitamin C, there's lots of botanicals and lots of antioxidants you can use. But I'm sort of prejudiced. I like a vitamin C C. Yeah. I really do. I like a vitamin C serum. I like to layer it with a good sunscreen. I love mineral sunscreens just because I think today they're so cosmetically elegant and they just give you that really nice coverage. And I, you know, I think that one, two in the morning, I like two steps in the morning and two steps at night. So I like it to be simple, but antioxidant followed by sunscreen in the morning, I think is a total win-win.
SPEAKER_01:And and kind of looking at that, do you feel like I know we talked a little bit about irritation? If somebody's looking to purchase a type of vitamin C serum, is there a recommendation and we touched on a little bit just for concentration? Because I think people are sometimes thrown off. If there's a concentration that's shown to be the most beneficial, maybe it's just the type of vitamin C, not even the concentration that's so important from a tolerability standpoint.
SPEAKER_02:You know, usually aloscorbic acid is somewhere around 10% or 15% in all of those products. And if you look at tetrahexaldecal ascorbate, the products that maybe you and I might recommend or have in our office, usually have 20%, some as high as 30%. Again, we're doing we're we're banking on some conversion of that to alascorbic acid. And because of its chemical properties, it's quite tolerable in the skin. So you can go to those higher concentrations with tetrahexaldecal. But those are sort of the ranges that you'll see. There's a lot of inexpensive vitamin C's too that you can buy over the counter. You know, La Roche-Possay's got a whole line of serums, and you know, many companies do. And those are usually around 10% Loscorbic acid.
SPEAKER_01:Over time, with some of those variations, have you ever seen can somebody build up a tolerance? Are they able to use over time a less potent version and kind of acclimate or get their skin used to it? Or is it just kind of how their skin might behave that there's not an opportunity to bump up, or has that ever been looked at?
SPEAKER_02:Well, it's I don't think it's really been looked at, but it's kind of interesting because when we talk about retinoids or vitamin A, we're always talking about this sort of titrating up. Exactly. But I think we do that honestly because of the irritation. You know, you don't want to flood the skin with these high physiologic doses of vitamin A. It's just irritating. Right. So we kind of slowly go up. Vitamin C is fairly well tolerated, and so I think we don't look at it as a titration so much. But let's face it, there are people who can't use alascorbic acid. Great news. We've got, you know, magnesium ascorobal phosphate, we've got sodium ascorbal phosphate, we've got ascorbal palmitate, and now we've got tetrahexaldecal ascorba. So I think that it's really, in my opinion, you know, it's kind of a front leader now because it's easy to formulate with and it's really gentle on the skin.
SPEAKER_01:Now, if somebody came to you, we talked about sort of in the regimen that you think it's important to use it in the morning, which I feel like most people recommend. If somebody wanted to use it as a part of their nighttime routine, do you think that's kind of a no-no, or would that be something you would encourage if they were just looking for an extra antioxidant punch? Because I get this question a lot. People always equate, I think, that more is better. Do you really feel like that's necessarily the case?
SPEAKER_02:I don't think you need to put it on more than once a day, and you're gonna get so much more benefit using it in the morning. And so I always say, you know, use the antioxidant sunscreen combo in the morning. And then in the evening, I try to choose products that are more reparative, whether it's a retinoid or it's a growth factor product or it's a heparin sulfate analog or whatever it might be, something that would be more of a reparative product, a peptide product. I love peptides. I know you do too, because they've got so many cool ones out now. But I think that you can, when you're sleeping, let your skin regenerate. You know, and you know, it reminds me of a lot of things that we've heard at this meeting. We're now using and looking towards all these regenerative technologies. Such an exciting time in skin care. We're talking about exosomes, we're talking about so many different technologies that I mean, I feel like we're really just doing almost a 180 in the way we approach the skin. It's not really about anti-aging anymore, it's about longevity, it's about regenerative, it's about keeping the skin healthy. And I love this sort of transition we're seeing away from anti-aging and really more about skin health and skill, skin wellness and then longevity. So interesting.
SPEAKER_01:I think that's one of the fascinating takeaways I've seen here at the conference, you know, this pro-aging almost concept again, just to change our mindsets, right? Because not only that for aging, but I think in terms of aesthetics and cosmetics, people just simply classify it as like in terms of vanity, the connotation of it, just the underpinnings, not understanding that it really equates with health. You know, when you see those changes in our skin, it's telling her our skin isn't healthy anymore. And yeah, there is a cosmetic aspect of that, but really to go down to the cellular level to repair that. I mean, it's such a powerful thing that I've seen here at the conference. And I'm really excited to see what's to come. When we talk about vitamin C2, I've noticed a lot that you'll see it kind of paired with vitamin E as another antioxidant. And I wanted to get your thoughts on kind of the science behind that because there's a rationale and kind of explain that right.
SPEAKER_02:Of course. And all of this work was actually done again by Dr. Sheldon Pinnell, the dermatologist. We knew that vitamin C worked. He proved that, he stabilized it, and he delivered it through the skin. But we also know that in nature, vitamin C helps to regenerate oxidized vitamin E. Vitamin E is the lipid-soluble antioxidant, plentiful again in the skin. So they work in tandem. One of them gets oxidized and the other one sacrifices itself, the vitamin C, to again regenerate that vitamin E. So there's this yin and yang between them. Enter the botanical ferulic acid. Firulic acid was actually added to stabilize both C and E. So you've got this, you know, sort of circle of synergistic ingredients that keep regenerating each other and keep the antioxidant um effective, really. It's it's so fascinating. You know, Pennell did all this work in the 90s, and I published extensively on his work. And, you know, he was a genius. He took his cues from nature. He actually started looking at vitamin C because of its ability to regenerate collagen, and it was shown that topical vitamin C could help with wound healing. And so he was he his first paper was really written about wound healing and how important elascorbic acid was to the formation of collagen. And then I guess the light bulbs went off with him. And he's like, wait a minute, collagen, wrinkles. He was a genius. I met him at the American Academy of Dermatology quite by chance. He was showing some before and after pictures to somebody, and I was peering over his shoulder and I was like, What did that? And he goes, Oh, that's topical vitamin C. And I was like, I mean, I kind of looked at him like he was crazy. I'd never heard of such a thing. And you know, the rest is history. I was very fortunate to he mentored me and got me interested in antioxidants. And I served as a consultant for his company for many, many years, which he ultimately sold to L'Oreal and turned into skin suitical. So it's kind of a you know, a subject that's near and dear to me because of my relationship with him.
SPEAKER_01:Well, it just makes things like this so much more special when you have that personal connection. Yes. I can't imagine how incredibly proud he must be just seeing what you've accomplished and what you've done.
SPEAKER_02:Well, and he was always so supportive of me. I remember I wrote my first chapter on vitamin C and asked him, like, could you give me some pictures, before and after pictures, which he shared with me, these incredible photos. And I honestly I still use today in lectures because they're so well, it's so well documented. But yeah, it it was a very special relationship. And he did a lot for dermatology and really was the first person to be talking about topical antioxidants, two dermatologists.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's fascinating. You know, I really appreciate you coming in today and talking with us. I know you're incredibly busy, you're running around, running a conference, and you gifted us with some of your time and expertise. I really want to thank the Science of Skin Summit for allowing us to come on, Dr. Patricia Ferris, also Dr. Ted Lane. Thank you guys for inviting me to come on and record the podcast. It's been an exciting opportunity for us and to bring this to our audience.
SPEAKER_02:We're so happy to have you here and thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_01:Of course, of course. And we'd love to have you again because we could talk about these things. We could talk for a long time. Well, thank you again for listening. If you like this episode, please hit like and subscribe and stay tuned for the next episode of Dermotter Don't Swear About Skin Care.
SPEAKER_00:Thanks for listening to Dermotrotter. For more about skincare, visit dermittrotter.com. Don't forget to subscribe, leave a review, and share this podcast with anyone who needs a little skincare sanity. Until next time, stay skin smart.
