Peplau's Ghost
Psychiatric-Mental Health Nurse Practitioners (PMHNP) discussing using psychotherapy within their practice. Four PMHNP program directors and a biostatistician from across the Unites States sharing their passion on how psychotherapy can help people with nearly all their emotional problems.
Peplau's Ghost
Therapy Is Not Hogwarts, But It’s Still Magic You Can Measure with Dr Melissa Chapman-Haynes
What if the most powerful part of therapy is the space between the boxes on our diagrams—the arrows where trust lives and change begins? We invited researcher and evaluator Dr. Melissa Chapman-Hayes to sit in the guest chair and talk candidly about why she stayed close to psychotherapy, how early mentorship shaped her lens, and why relational work is the quiet engine beneath good data.
We dig into nursing’s unique role in psychotherapy: clinicians who spend the most time with patients often have the strongest relational skills, yet face billing, time, and visibility barriers. Melissa lays out a practical roadmap for building the case: tailor messages to audiences, combine defensible outcomes with human stories, and treat credibility as something defined by the people you need to persuade. From hospital leaders to accrediting bodies to the general public, evidence lands when it feels useful, plainspoken, and real.
Stigma looms large. We explore it as a public health crisis and focus on self-stigma as the most actionable barrier. Leadership vulnerability—like a commanding general sitting in a clinic to normalize care—can reshape culture. Access is more than coverage; it’s fit. We talk about finding the right therapist, why a few sessions are a fair test, and how telehealth expands options while leaving equity gaps. The conversation gets specific about cultural relevance too, from adapting CBT for a Black man with early cognitive decline to navigating directories that rarely capture identity or modality with nuance.
We close on isolation: a modern condition that technology both softens and sharpens. Loneliness erodes mental and physical health, yet connection can be prescribed, coached, and built through groups, community touchpoints, and brave conversations. If every data point is a person, every story is a chance to shift a system—one relationship at a time.
If this resonated, subscribe, share it with a colleague, and leave a review. Your feedback helps more listeners find thoughtful conversations about psychotherapy, nursing, stigma, and the future of mental health care.
Let’s Connect
Dr Dan Wesemann
Email: daniel-wesemann@uiowa.edu
Website: https://nursing.uiowa.edu/academics/dnp-programs/psych-mental-health-nurse-practitioner
LinkedIn: www.linkedin.com/in/daniel-wesemann
Dr Kate Melino
Email: Katerina.Melino@ucsf.edu
Dr Sean Convoy
Email: sc585@duke.edu
Dr Kendra Delany
Email: Kendra@empowered-heart.com
Dr Melissa Chapman
Email: mchapman@pdastats.com
Yeah. Just my take on things. My answer number two. Identify and challenge in your beliefs. Framing your mind. Negative thoughts release. Identifying challenging your beliefs.
SPEAKER_00:Alright, I think we're recording. Welcome back, everybody, to another episode of Peplau's Ghost. This is exciting. I'm I'm really excited. I'm joined here with my colleague Dr. Sean Convoy and then Dr. Chapman Melissa. I'm sorry, Dr. Melissa Chapman Hayes. I don't know why I was going to put your last name first. But, anyways, yeah, these are we're kind of the standby here. We're our regular host, and we decided, hey, at the end of this year, 2025, why don't we do something really kind of different? Turn the podcast upside down and turn the turn the microphones on ourselves. So Melissa has been generous enough to kind of open herself up and talk a little bit about this. We we have done this with Dr. Kate Molino when she officially became Dr. Kate Molino. And so check back on a previous episode to kind of see that. But but really excited here to kind of listen to Melissa and kind of share a little bit about her story as we kind of reflect here at the end of 2025. So all right, are we ready for this? Let's get into it. So, Melissa, let me start off with just kind of saying I'm gonna go off script here a little bit. I I the question I really want you to know, and and and this is one of those things I've never met you physically in person. I hope one day I do, but I feel very close to you, and and I've just always been very privileged that you continue to work with us in this capacity. And and so I want to know why. Why do you keep hanging around with us? Yes, I feel the same.
SPEAKER_02:I feel like I'm hanging around to you all, and you all allow me to hang out with you. So, what keeps you coming back then?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, what what keeps you yeah?
SPEAKER_02:You know, I've reflected on this myself because y'all do psychotherapy and I do not. I have been and am a patient of psychotherapy, but I I thought growing up that's what I wanted to do was to be a psychologist. And so I I took every opportunity possible to explore that. And it's always it hung out in my life. I have friends that are psychotherapists and friends that are do all forms of counseling, and I I feel like I've just always tried to stay close to it. I I just think the world would be so much better if we all did psychotherapy or whatever form of therapy. It would fix so many things if we could just work on ourselves and prioritize that. So that's just a deep, a deep held value, I suppose.
SPEAKER_00:That's awesome. Yeah, no, thank you. That's yeah, because again, I I take it for granted, and I I guess this is maybe an opportunity to say that I I don't take it for granted. I I do appreciate you being on this podcast and continuing our other work that we're involved with too. So was there anything kind of thinking back through your life? Was there a moment in which you kind of felt this draw to kind of be a part of this community and just kind of you mentioned that that you initially thought that that may be, you know, kind of the path you wanted to do. And was there kind of a moment that led you down that path or or something that you can recall?
SPEAKER_02:It it must have been a variety of moments, and I think just being a deeply empathetic person, always being questioning, like it if there would be a situation or emotions, or what you know, I grew up in the 80s and the 90s, and it was just a different time. Less people did therapy, and I always wanted to know why people behave that they the way that they did. And I just was like endlessly hungry to to find out why. And so my senior year of high school, I actually had I was one of four students that did this pilot program. It was a mentorship program, and I mentored under a psychologist, and I studied eating disorders and family dynamics, children of divorce, and I was able to actually sit in with some session. I mean, she went through all the you know hoops and got permissions, but I I got to sit in some group therapy and individual sessions with her and just spend time with her to get a sense of what it was like to be a psychologist. And then I just kind of you know, I I also had to clean out my room because my parents, you know, didn't want all of our crap in the basement. And I really remembered that I reached out to the American Psychological Association for I don't know what. I wish I wish I would have known what I asked, but they did respond and they wrote me a letter and then gave me all these resources that I apparently asked for. So just I've always nerded out on the topic.
SPEAKER_00:I love it. I it's you know, it's one of those things that makes me think of Stranger Things. I don't know if you watch that on Netflix. That's you know, I think there's just such this draw to 1980s and growing up in that time. And so uh hopefully there was no, what is it, the upside down world in your life.
SPEAKER_02:But uh but uh but no, I think this maybe moments, but not like not that dramatic.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, I remember too, I I don't know what made me kind of come across it, and I don't remember how old I was, but I I remember reading a book, but it was a specific book, like what the day a day in the life of a psychologist. And I remember reading that, and actually I remember reading it and kind of being kind of bored because I think she kind of you know, she got in, she she read some things, she read some journal articles, and it was and now that I've been practicing, I'm like, no one gets in and reads some journal, nobody does that before they go and see patients. It's it was kind of all kind of made up. So I'm gonna stop talking and let Sean jump in. I'm sorry, Sean.
SPEAKER_01:Well, good. So Melissa, I I for just for our listenership, can you, you know, give us your elevator speech about your prof your what you do professionally, because I do believe that your job is psychotherapeutically adjacent. So I'll start off with that. Can you speak to that, please?
SPEAKER_02:I agree. I'm not sure everyone thinks about it that way, but I do. And so I I do program evaluation and research, and I'm a consultant, extra an external consultant for with a consulting firm in Minneapolis. And a lot of our work, I think people think data, writing, that sort of a thing. And that's true, but I think more of our work to make that data part successful is the relationships. And so we're constantly going into situations, organizations, dynamics. We don't know what's going on, we don't know the politics, and we're trying to figure out what you need. And as you all very well know, you know, folks have varying abilities of being clear on and honest about what's going on. And so it's the relationships with our partners and clients across the US as well as internally, because we work on teams. So it's a lot of people work, and that's why I love what I do. I love the people part of it, even more than the data. The data gets us stuff, and I like being systematic about it. But yeah, I mean, that's how I got connected with this group for the listeners is I went to the University of Iowa and I've worked with the nursing college of nursing down there. And then someone put Dan in touch with me for a study and I did the analysis, and now I'm here. So you just never know where it's gonna lead you.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. And in this psychotherapeutically adjacent space, I've got a question for you that kind of sets at the table now. I I've heard people say that psychotherapy is kind of like wind. You can't see it, but you can feel it when it works, right? So, from your perspective, how do you kind of how do you kind of reconcile with that? Is is that something that resonates with you, or do you have a different view of it?
SPEAKER_02:I really love that, and I'm probably gonna write that down, Sean, when I get off of the call. Because what I find really an interesting challenge as I'm mentoring people who are coming up in our field and profession, is how to talk about that because it's a make or break with the success of our work. And it's it's that in-between. It's the in-between that if you want to be really successful in what we do, and that and like I like thinking about it as the wind. Sometimes I think about it as the in-between or in a model, it's the arrows between boxes. What's that?
unknown:Nice.
SPEAKER_02:I love that.
unknown:Cool.
SPEAKER_01:Thank you.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's it's hard to define, right? I mean, I that's a great analogy, and I'm I'm sure Sean's already trademarked it, so we can't share it. But uh, but thank you.
SPEAKER_02:That's give you an attribute, Sean.
SPEAKER_00:Make sure we bookmark it and footnote it. That's great. Yeah. Melissa, I you know, I just I really just kind of want to know, again, as as a non-nurse kind of in the room, which again have been very appreciative of kind of making sure that we don't get too acronymy and things in our podcast. What do you see, you know, again, from the outside, kind of looking in as what would be your critique of nursing? You know, what do you see as nursing? You know, what is its strengths, what is its limitations, you know, as far as you know, let's maybe focus just on psychotherapy, but kind of in your experience, you know, where where do you see nursing kind of fitting into that kind of whole world? Because again, we know that there are a lot of professions that do do psychotherapy, but you know, how do you see nursing again from kind of the outside looking in?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I, you know, that's a great question because coming into this, I knew a lot more about training as a psychologist. And even though I do research psychology and not counseling, I knew very little about nurses who do psychotherapy. And I would say the critique is that there's not more time as a a patient. I've had three kids, I haven't had a lot of medical things, but either that or as a caregiver or loved one. Nurses make or break the care in whatever settings. And so I really had like a tiny little understanding that nurses do psychotherapy. And as I learned over the past couple of years of us partnering together, nurses are in a prime position. There's but it get when it gets within the systems of billing and all the pressures that are put upon nurses, I I think there's a lot stacked against nurses systematically to do this work. But the fact that prescribing can happen, there's a lot of patient time folks. Most of the folks that I've met that go into nursing have those relational interpersonal skills. And there's so much in just holding someone's hand or just like physically being there and taking care of them, in addition to holding space, listening, medication, whatever else is needed.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Yeah, that hits home through me too. I'm sorry, Sean. Just one quick little thing before you because again, I I'm not, you know, I'm not the typical nurse. I always kind of say I it took a long time. It took a long, kind of twisty path. So, you know, I when I looked into what to do in this kind of world, yeah, I I knew psychology and then I knew social work, and and social work kind of was a place. And so it it took me a long time to discover nursing as its potential. So I I really resonate with kind of that that idea that it's probably, you know, we need to be screaming it from the rooftops. And and maybe I guess that's why we do this podcast, right? It's it's something to kind of raise some visibility of that.
SPEAKER_01:So absolutely. Melissa, you know, it we're gonna tap into your skill set as a researcher. Thinking about this from the perspective of making the case that, you know, nurses and advanced practice psychiatric nurses can effectively leverage psychotherapy. Uh how what kind of guidance would you give this and future generations of nurses and advanced practice nurses in terms of how we build the argument from a data perspective?
SPEAKER_02:I always take a very comprehensive systems approach to this. So my answer isn't going to be one audience, but the first thing that always comes to mind is who needs to know? And I think who needs to know the general public for visibility, hospital administrators, as we've we've spoken about, institutes of higher education in terms of training and the organizations that set accreditation and guidelines. So I like to think in terms of complexity and systems to make that make sense. And then I think then I like to break it down by audience and think who needs to know what, because people need to know different things and and set the stage that way. So I'm talking a little bit in the clouds for us level, but that's always where I like to start. I think it's an endlessly fascinating challenge. I also think that there's a lot to be said for both quantitative and qualitative mixed together. So telling the human interest stories along with defensible, credible, systematic information. And as I use those words very intentionally, not rigorous, I think credible and defensible and worthiness is defined by the audience that uh you're intending to present to, which is the strain that goes through the whole the whole shebang.
SPEAKER_01:That's really helpful. Thank you.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, sure.
SPEAKER_00:Well, how do you see Yeah, I guess the first question that came to mind, and and maybe, you know, and I think this is the age-old question, so I don't expect you to have the maybe, you know, just maybe your thoughts on this. I mean, uh, how do you connect to all those different audiences too? I mean, I'm thinking, you know, obviously the podcast, you know, can reach some people, but but with six billion podcasts out there, you know, it's it's a bit screaming into the wind a little bit. And and so so yeah, so administrators and and things like that. What have you found to kind of be a strategy to get a message across that's you know, maybe based on your past experience and work.
SPEAKER_02:What really gets my energy going, Dan, is uh thinking about who needs to be at the table to plan that and to to plan what the lever points are, because there's always too much. And anytime I've I don't even use the term systems approach when I talk to people or try to make it more real everyday language. But it's like where where are those opportunities? And I think to do that, convening and facilitating conversations with a very intentional group of individuals that have different perspectives that will build up to where we get like kind of brainstorm what are the options, and then like what's our first starting point. And then you start to make progress because in a system, once you kind of make that ripple, there's other ripples. So the system is always changing. So I really and that takes time. So maybe this actually comes full circles to the first question and why do I stay here? I'm really passionate about psychotherapy, and I personally benefited from it, even though I don't do it professionally. I've I've seen that with this podcast and you all and others, and it just takes time. So I think I try to be really intentional about where I spend my time and put my resources because these things take time, generations, etc. So I I hope that actually answered your question. I'm not I'm not sure. You didn't re-direct me.
SPEAKER_00:No, no, that's perfect because I'm gonna I'm gonna hearken to Hamilton, which I, you know, I'm not a big play lover, but Hamilton's kind of one of those things. And one of the lines from Hamilton is, you know, your legacy is a garden that you plant and never see grow. And I think that's kind of, and that's that continues to strike me how you know people will write about things and then it's like we discover it 20 years later. We discover it, I think, like you said, generations, these these ripples take time. And and I think, you know, as maybe as a cultural kind of not make too many cultural statements, but I mean it's I think we all get frustrated with that. We want to see results fast. We want to, we want to fix problems. There's a ton of problems out there. And so so it's really hard to kind of you know see those sort of things. So I think people have a hard time being patient with that too. It's but I but I appreciate, you know, and I I think I, you know, as I will reflect, and I'm I'm kind of maybe speaking a little bit so that Dr. Kate Molino has can join us and catch up on our conversation, which is so happy that she was able to join us. It reminds me kind of a little bit of kind of Sean and I, our first conversation, and and remember him kind of saying that, you know, he just had a feeling that we were kind of very similar in how we think about things. I I think people, you know, it's birds of a feather kind of flock together. I think once you meet people that are kind of on your same wavelength or same kind of vibe, you really you really connect. And I and those are the people I want to kind of keep around in my lives in uh one way, shape, or form. So I think you spoke well about that kind of having those ripple effects and how systems continue to change and such. So I'll pass it along to Dr. Kate Malia. Thank you for joining us, Kate. Good seeing you.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, hi everyone. And yeah, apologies for my delayed uh entry into today's episode. So yeah, I you know what, I'm I'm just gonna sit back and listen and I'll jump in, you know. Super.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, we've been talking a little bit. You kind of caught up and asked her kind of the most blatant question for me, which is why she keeps coming back, which again was great. And then we've been talking a little bit more about you know, data and and her kind of passion with that. My next question, maybe to kind of think of, and again, Sean, I think you were thinking about the same thing that I was. Again, maybe thinking about data. What about the future of psychotherapy? You know, it's I'm interested in just as a teaser, maybe for the podcast, we're gonna talk to somebody who's got some AI, you know, expertise in how that kind of applies to psychotherapy. So, you know, where do you see that? Where do you see the future of psychotherapy and maybe technology? And do you have any kind of thoughts or perspectives on that?
SPEAKER_02:Maybe technology, but where my mind went first is actually I'm trying to think, someone in my life has just got a diagnosis, one of the many diagnoses that you could get for uh early onset dementia. And he's a black man, and so he the diet, the the um treatment recommended, because he kind of screenshotted uh the diagnosis, ICD 10 code, and then what the treatment protocol was was cognitive behavioral therapy. And so I'm like, oh, that's great. And he he's like, What is this? Can you send me some resources? And so I did, but I was specifically looking for resources not just on CBD, of which there are bajil a bajillion, but for black men undergoing early cognitive decline, and I did find some things. So I I think like just reaching more specific audiences of like, you know, psychotherapy kind of scares people. They might think, you know, woo-woo, like an ear early episode of ours or you know, penises or whatever, droid. And I mean, that's not completely not part of it. And there's just a lot of benefits. So I just think even though we've come a long way from the 80s and 90s, there's a long way to go to normalizing this, especially to certain groups. I mean, men in particular. I'm not not all, but a lot of a lot of folks. Let's put it that way.
SPEAKER_01:Well listen, I I was thinking when we were talking one of the common challenges that exists in terms of effectively leveraging and benefiting from from psychotherapy revolves around stigma. Uh, and as as as a as a seasoned professional who's a researcher, who's trained as a psychologist, who doesn't necessarily practice, how do you see stigma kind of being a barrier to care as it relates to psychotherapy?
SPEAKER_02:You know, Sean, I was at a con at a conference in Kansas City the other month, and I think it was the YWCA had this beautiful mural on the side of its building that said stigma is a public health crisis. And I work in public health mostly and behavioral mental health. And I just we see it all the time. If if there's stigma, shame, you can't even be honest with yourself to see the reality for what it is. And and people live within that all the time. So there's a a lot of breakdown that we have to, or not breakdown, but like reaching people, which takes a lot of again, care, compassion, and time. I know these things aren't very congruent with our modern culture. And maybe with AI, people will be more open to using AI to get some knowledge because you can get, you know, type something into chat GPT or notebook LM or whatever, and uh kind of understand it. Maybe there's like a little curiosity. We can just get a little bit of light for people to uh to explore what this could possibly do to help them. I I think it's a huge issue, remains a huge issue and challenge.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, it's interesting. I I I I'm reflecting back on some research from a colleague of mine back in the early 2000s that looked at at the presence of stigma within the military. And it was interesting. The results of the research, it was a qualitative Research dime where they did focus groups and things like that is that you know three forms of stigma. There is you know senior to subordinate stigma, there's peer-related stigma, and then there's self-stigma. And the research results, though it can't be generalized beyond the Department of the Navy, were really interesting because the more actionable variable was the self-stigma, the things that we say to ourselves, about ourselves that are more influential as a barrier to care than what anybody or anything actually does. So thanks for that.
SPEAKER_02:Well, you know what that reminds me of is my undergraduate thesis. I was an English psychology major with a French minor, and I didn't know what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a psychologist until I'm like, I don't know if I have good enough boundaries. I'm not sure this is I'm cut up for this. But I wanted to explore, having taken a lot of English and psych classes, what psychosis looks like to in the lit in literature and then what how psychology approaches it. And there's this book that I mean, I I reviewed a lot of books, but one was, I think, called Fires on the Plane, and it was about war and what it does to a person who starts out as you know regulated and you know, there's cannibalism in it that they don't partake in, but you know, it's like live or by cannibalism or don't, and then basically losing losing his mind. So I I that self-sig stigma is really powerful.
SPEAKER_03:Thank you.
SPEAKER_04:This is you know, this is such an interesting topic. So, you know, I often I'm hearing from patients or you know, students or other people, you know, like in my culture, we don't talk about mental health, right? And that could be sort of like culture writ large, or that could just be like my city or my you know community, like whatever. And I'm always sort of wondering like, where is this mythical culture in which they do talk about mental health? Because I haven't really come across it, you know. Like, I'm I live in Northern California. That might be actually one of the sort of mythical places. Um, but I'm always sort of like interested in this. And then, you know, I'm Melissa, I've heard you talk before about how one of the things you really like about data is that it enables you to tell a story. So, you know, one of the questions I have for you is like, do you have any thoughts on how we can use data to tell stories to break down some of this whole idea?
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I I love that question, Kate. And I don't know where that mythical place is. That's such a good thought question. Because I spent a lot of time growing up and being in rural communities, and it's certainly not there, but what is there are relationships and there's there's moments. And I think anytime I've seen someone in any environment speak like openly vulnerable vulnerably about their experience, then they become a safer spot in normalizing, talking about challenges, going through hard times, needing help, etc. And I know that's one reason I always talk about and very open about being a patient of psychotherapy and what it has done for me and how I continue to I'm just an open person too, so I get kind of jives with who I am. But I think having more people from more communities willing to speak up about their experience would do a whole lot because every data point is a person, it's a story, it's not a it's not disconnected from it, it's somebody's part of their story.
SPEAKER_01:It's so cool you mentioned. I'm thinking, I loved Kate's question. Uh it brings me back to a memory I had when I was in the military. This was at the peak of the global war on terror, and we were having some significant problems with Marines not being willing to actually go to mental health to get care. And the one star general who was in charge of the base literally went to the clinic and sat down three days a week and had conversations with the Marines to soften their view of it. It shows you how leadership sometimes can shape behavior of subordinate people.
SPEAKER_02:Absolutely. And I know in my it's a totally different context, but in environments where I work as a leader, I try to make a real point to be vulnerable myself. And it's incredible how much that can change the culture, but it takes time and people have varying degrees of comfort, but people open up and it's transformative.
SPEAKER_00:That's inspiring. Yeah, I mean, yeah, just kind of putting yourself out there. I I loved how you kind of said each person is a data point too. I I think it's it's one of those things that yeah, we need to kind of you know celebrate. And again, sorry, hearkening, pat everybody on back. But I I mean that's why we're here, I think. That's why we keep plugging away on this podcast, going into to year two and and hopefully many more years ahead of us and kind of keep doing this work. But uh yeah, you know, it's and going back to kind of you know what you said earlier about you know different types of therapy and kind of focusing on different populations, I think, I think sometimes we do a disservice in our own profession on that. I and it it struck up in me too. We just had a conversation with a student who wants to, you know, get some more psychotherapy experience, but specifically in trauma folks, trauma-focused CBT, which which part of me was like, great. And the other part of me is like, who does that? You know, because I don't know if I can pick up or even Google, and I'm gonna try and Google who in my area or who in her area, you know, does that type of psychotherapy? And I think a lot of us, you know, a lot of practitioners, quite frankly, they just become psychotherapists. And, you know, and so then you get lost in, you know, is this a nurse doing this? Is this a psychologist? Is this a social worker? Is it and then what kind of therapy are they doing? So I think I really, you know, just want to kind of come back to that point of there needs to be more of those data points, like you were saying, of, yeah, you know, what's what's an African-American male who just got a dementia diagnosis? What side, you know, what's what type of CBD, you know, CBT is going to be best for them? You know, what's what type of psychotherapy for a cancer diagnosis for someone with serious mental illness, you know, all these kind of things. I mean, we put CB, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy, sorry, CBT, uh, should kind of explain what CBT means. And I think I'm saying CBD sometimes, which is really kind of messing it up totally. This isn't a podcast for pot, but uh but cognitive behavioral therapy. Yeah, and there, you're right, there is a gazillion different references out there, but you know, kind of getting more specific. I think the the evidence is out there, it's effective. Now, who is it effective for? And I think the question we don't ask enough is is who is it who is it not effective for? You know, because I don't think it's uh, you know, it's not aspirin we give everybody, right? And we know aspirin is problematic too. So but do you have any thoughts on that or or just kind of maybe want to expand on some of those thoughts? Sorry, I left you hanging.
SPEAKER_02:Sure. No, I well, I have a lot of thoughts. I mean, one of my thoughts went to I live in the in the twin cities, Minneapolis, Minnesota. We have a lot of immigrant populations here, and so I I know like finding just a black therapist, for example, can be hard or like a black male therapist, but possible. And I, you know, one of the best things about the pandemic is opening up more telehealth, although I know insurance remains challenged for many people. So that I mean that's one thought. But you're right, psychotherapy is not for everybody, and not every therapist is for everybody. And so I know when I'm talking with loved ones, I always try to make a point of maybe they don't know what kind of therapy they need, but try to find someone that seems like a match. You know, you can go all sorts of places to try to see who's in the area, or you know, virtually could do that. And if you meet with someone and it doesn't work, you can try someone else. You're not gonna hurt their feelings. It's just like any other relationship or teacher student or what whatever, right? You don't need to give up, it just didn't work out. And you can break up with your therapist and go find another one. And please do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, no, I I like that idea. I I frequently tell my patients, you know, give it a few sessions. I mean, obviously you don't want to make a quick decision on a therapist on maybe they were having a bad day and you caught them on a bad day, and you know, one session doesn't define the potential relationship and that benefit you could get. But I think finding the right therapist is sometimes like finding the right medication. You know, we sometimes have to trial multiple medications, you know, antidepressants, whatever it is. But once you find that right medication, it can be life-saving. And I think the same with therapy. Once you find that right therapist, that therapist that you know aligns with you, you you believe that they are they're your ride and die person, you know, their person that's gonna really, you know, be in your corner and and really help you guide you through some of the more difficult times in your life. So I loved how you said that. I mean, that's yeah, you don't have to stick with a therapist that you don't like. I mean, I think telehealth is that's the absolute best thing about it is access increase. And so I think there's legislation and there's movement that it's gonna continue within mental health. So so I'm excited about that. But but yeah, even having the conversation, I don't get it a lot about why we kind of want to take a step backward with telehealth.
SPEAKER_02:So yeah. And I guess there's a lot of barriers. Even as someone who's always been a fan of counseling and psychotherapy, I have an I an internal family systems therapist. It's the second time I've I've done that. I had never heard of that until a friend of mine who is a therapist and does ISF said, you know, Melissa, yeah, I think maybe like I mean, I'm biased, right? Because I I like this form of therapy and I practice it. And then, but then she told me about it. So not only did she introduce me to it, but then she told me how to find, you know, go to this site, you want an IFS level two or three trained therapist. I mean, like all these things. It's all it's I just happen to have a friend who's a therapist who walked me through that. And then the last part of that would be making sure that I'm getting what I want out of it and how to share with my therapist where I'd like to go or if I want to spend more time with a part or exploring, and and the therapist is pretty good about doing that as well. But that there's it it there is an uphill battle, right? And that's coming from someone who's already bought in to psychotherapy with a network of of people who are also bought in or and or doing psychotherapy.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, that system's hard to navigate, right? I mean, you like you're saying, you know, you you have some friends, you have some colleagues that can help you kind of navigate that, but uh imagine someone who doesn't have that. I mean, that would be nearly impossible to kind of get that. And I I know, yeah, probably most often what people decide their therapist is going to be is the person who's in their network for their insurance. And so Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:And that's you know, and that is so random to begin with, right? I mean, that could be any profession, that could be any kind of training. And and probably for a lot of people, it's just the most economical person that they've found in networks. So yeah, that may or may not be the person that you need. So yeah. All right. Well, Sean puts you on the spot, Kate. I'm just gonna say, since he's gone, so you can't you can't lambast him. But he said you were gonna finish off our podcast with a question. Do you do you have anything that you last thing to kind of ask or find out from Melissa before we sign off today?
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, I guess, well, yeah. You know, Melissa, given that you have so much, you know, expertise in so many like different but also overlapping areas, you know, you're you're in public health, you are a trained psychologist, you're an evaluator, like I guess from your public health, you know, hat, like what do you see kind of as the biggest mental health issue facing people? And how do you think that nursing can help?
SPEAKER_02:The first thing that comes to mind, and maybe I changed my mind if I thought more about this. Great question, Kate, is isolation. I think that continues isolation from the pandemic, from our modern world, from technology. And that goes counter to you know us having to have these close, trusting relationships, which can be done virtually. I mean, none of us have ever met, and well, I have not ever met any of you. Some of you have met in person and yet we feel close. But you know, I just think those are rare opportunities to engage digitally, virtually like that. So I don't have a solution, but I just think isolation is is toxic. And I know that there's research on that as well for all sorts of reasons that I guess we can get into another time because I know we're running a little bit short on time.
SPEAKER_04:Yeah, absolutely. Thanks. And yeah, I would I would love to dig into that more in another episode because I totally agree. It's so salient to all age groups, all communities.
SPEAKER_02:And in different ways too, right? Like my kids in the way that they don't even though we incur, but like we feel like we have to socialize them, you know, and they're not like super awkward people, but we're like, do you want to invite a friend over you know that person? You should go say hi. And maybe every generation has to do that, but it just feels like they're not out running around in the neighborhood like we used to a couple decades ago. But then they have like therapy dogs in school. I mean, they it's it's just a different time. They have more resources in some ways, but they're more isolated.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:I like how you said that technology, you know, it's it's a it can it's it cuts both ways, right? I mean, it it it makes us feel more connected in some ways, but then also it actually creates lots of distances between us too. So but yeah, it it thank you for bringing that up because that's that's that's something I don't know why I forget always, but it is such an area that, yes, I just like Kate said too, I would love to kind of you know dive into that topic just more. Because I remember you know the the previous Surgeon General actually spoke at the American Academy of Nursing. And and I forgot that was his platform. He was he would that was his you know of agenda of kind of focusing the country on loneliness. And and and like we said, it's it's obviously with for our world, it's it's a psychological effect, but there's also medical side too. There's there's lots of physical negative of effects from from the loneliness. And yeah, like you said too, though, unfortunately, we don't have any good solution. I think it's a you you you know, it it plays to your wheelhouse, it's a systemic issue, right? It's it's not just there's no pill for that for sure. And there's definitely probably not, you know, more therapists need to be out there doing therapy. It's how do we get communities to talk to each other? And you know, can we can we get, you know, maybe some social skills group of you know how to ask somebody out to go to a movie, to have a cup of coffee and just connect again? Like we I don't know, maybe we never did that in the past too, right? I mean we sometimes idolize the the past and things too. But all right, I'm droning on, but thank you. We'll wrap up today because again, we could go on with this isolation. But thank you, thank you, thank you, Dr. Melissa Chapman-Hayes, for for volunteering to be our guest for this podcast. And thank you to Dr. Kate Molino and Dr. Sean Convoy. We'll be back in a podcast real soon where we're gonna get uh our good friend Sean on the couch here and crack him open. That's our that's our next assignment. So the three of us are gonna turn the tables on him. Uh I look forward to that. Look forward to hearing kind of what he has to say about this as well. But uh please feel free to write in, subscribe. And this is again the the from my understanding, the longest podcast about psychotherapy from nurses that is totally ad-free. So congrats to us. Although we would like to get paid. But uh so if you have uh sponsorship you want us to get in touch with, let us know too. So, all right, thank you so much. We'll see you next time. Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03:They feel it, therefore it's true. Work hard until those thoughts are finally leaving. So you can be you, uh They feel it, therefore it's true. Work hard until those thoughts are finally leaving, so you can be you, guided discovery. Identify and challenging your beliefs, framing your mind negative thoughts release, let it go. These cognitive distortions decrease until they cease.
unknown:Yeah.
SPEAKER_03:Guided discovery. Identify and challenging your beliefs, core beliefs framing your mind, negative thoughts release, let it go. These cognitive distortions decrease until they cease.
