Episode 165: Shaping Your Financial Story. Preparing for Life After the Exit.

This episode continues the financial planning of the entrepreneur as Jim and Matthew pick up in Stage 3 of their four-part process: Shaping Your Story.

WIth Jim fresh off an Alice Cooper/Judas Priest concert and Matthew a Vermont fall-foliage wedding, the guys explore how clarity meets action when entrepreneurs begin planning what’s next — their Life 3.0. They challenge the old idea of “What’s your number?” and instead walk through a more nuanced, risk-aware way to structure your assets using their money barrels framework: Now, Soon, Later, and Never.

If you’ve ever wondered, “Do I really have enough?” — whether you’re sitting on a couple million or a couple hundred million — this conversation will help you see life after the exit as a strategy. It's not an end point but the next chapter of your whole wealth story.

In this episode, you’ll learn:

• Why gratitude, curiosity, and “firsts” in your 50s (and beyond) matter when planning what’s next
• How Stage 3: Shaping Your Story fits into the Whole Wealth Journey process
• The difference between defining your story and actually building Life 3.0
• Why the old “What’s your number?” commercials and the classic 4% rule can create a false sense of arrival
• How entrepreneurs’ vision of “retirement” differs from traditional work-and-stop models
• The money barrels approach: separating your wealth into Now, Soon, Later, and Never buckets
• Why Jim and Matthew are passionate risk-managers, not just asset managers — and why cash is an asset class
• How to align your investments with when you’ll actually need the money, not just how much you have

Chapter Summaries

(00:00) Gratitude and Family Celebrations
Managing risk through cash reserves, gratitude for a heavy metal concert, and family connections in Vermont.
(07:06) Shaping Your Financial Story
Integrating personal and financial planning, gaining clarity on desired lifestyle, guiding clients towards fulfilling Life 3.0.
(17:15) Retirement Planning and Life 3.0
ING's memorable commercial featuring a tangible retirement "number" sparks discussion on oversimplification, personalized planning, and varied perspectives.
(31:25) Planning for Future Wealth Success
Financial planning is like managing "money barrels" for risk and growth, adjusting for timeframes and aligning with personal goals.

Learn more about The Whole Wealth Journey and get periodic updates or helpful content by getting on our email list HERE. Entrepreneurs, exit strategies and personal financial planning before the sale are topics you can count on every episode.  You can follow us on Instagram @thewholewealthjourney. 

Transcript

Jim Gebhardt: [00:00:00] Are passionate, passionate, passionate advocates for this concept of managing risk. And that's why this money barrel concept of having, you know, some, some cash set aside for now, right? And we define now as somewhere between 1, 2, 3, super conservative clients might go four years worth of cash.

Hey, what's this whole Wealth Journey podcast thing all about? It's a podcast for entrepreneurs where we're trying to help them connect the meaning with their money. 

Matthew Grishman: Who are you? Jim Gehart. Oh, I'm Matthew Grishman, and we're a couple of financial guys having a. Not so traditional financial conversation called the Whole Wealth Journey.

Here we go.

Jim Gebhardt: What are you grateful for today? 

Matthew Grishman: You always make me go first. 

Jim Gebhardt: I [00:01:00] do. 

Matthew Grishman: We did this, we did this last time. Well, I'm, I 

Jim Gebhardt: do, 

Matthew Grishman: I am putting 

Jim Gebhardt: I think out of 164 episodes the last three times. You've gone first, 

Matthew Grishman: right? Absolutely. And I'm putting my foot down 'cause I can't do four in a row. What, what are you grateful for?

You're going first. Oh, 

Jim Gebhardt: I, I am. I'm sitting here chomping at the bit. 

Matthew Grishman: You 

Jim Gebhardt: go. 

Matthew Grishman: Go. Does it have anything to do with the T-shirt you're wearing? 

Jim Gebhardt: No. It's fun at 55 years old to still have firsts. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: And when I have a first in my fifties, it makes me wanna go have some other first. And so last night for Grant's birthday, we got him tickets to Alice Cooper and Judas Priest.

Matthew Grishman: Wow. 

Jim Gebhardt: So for those members of the tribe that know me personally, they would know that that's probably not something I would ordinarily go do on my own in terms of my leisure. 

Matthew Grishman: Did they open with Chopin or Beethoven? 

Jim Gebhardt: Peter Millar and Grant's Taste in Music has evolved quite a bit in the last several years, three, four years, [00:02:00] where he started with heavy rock and then went into kind of like an Elton John, Billy Joel phase, kind of a softer rock into country.

'cause our families. Pretty into the, you know, all the popular more pop oriented country musicians that evolved into like good deep old Johnny Cash and Merle Haggard. And, you know, my dog died and my wife left me and I lost my job and, you know, classic old, old country. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: And then he kind, kind of like bouncing out the other side of that into heavy metal.

Matthew Grishman: Wow. 

Jim Gebhardt: He wanted to go to Metallica is still traveling or uh, touring. They were in the Bay Area this summer and he like desperately pleaded with Beth and I to go and. We had such an aversion to the idea that there wasn't even, there wasn't even any discussion around, it was a hard, no one time all done Uhuh.

Matthew Grishman: It's probably the last time you'll be able to tell him, no, he can't go to that concert. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right? 

Matthew Grishman: Mm-hmm. 

Jim Gebhardt: [00:03:00] So, 

Matthew Grishman: well the last time you can say it, he'll, he'll listen to it. 

Jim Gebhardt: Exactly. This popped up on the radar screen a couple months ago as Judas Priest, essentially the band for Alice Cooper at Shoreline Amphitheater down in, in the Peninsula.

So. I threw it out to the fam, like, who wants to go? Grace was like, I'm in. And Emily and Beth were like, nah, no, no thanks. We had a blast. 

Matthew Grishman: That's great. 

Jim Gebhardt: The people watching the fact that Grant was so into it, and I remember our dear friend Glen and his son, whatever phase of music his son was into, Glen would tag along and go along for the ride and that was a little bit of my inspiration was.

The fact that don't, don't be a stick in the mud. Don't be a fuddy duddy on. He's into this en enjoy it with him. Right? I mean, I drag him along to some of the stuff that I'm into. Like the Ryder Cup. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah, there you go. 

Jim Gebhardt: Nonetheless, the people watching before the show was outstanding because there was a lot of [00:04:00] people that were in character.

For all that Alice Cooper represents. Sure. Right? 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: And then the concert itself was awesome, but then watching him just sing along word for word to every song that Alice Cooper was banging out at 77 years old was awesome. And then the last thing I'm grateful for from the whole event is the fact that.

When your headliner is 77, they don't tend to go very late. It's not a long show. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. They turn into 

a 

Jim Gebhardt: pumpkin. It's not a three hour set. Right. I like it. It was like an hour and 45 minutes. 

Matthew Grishman: Okay. 

Jim Gebhardt: Nice and clean in your seat. B bang. Boom. We were home at 10 o'clock. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, lovely. 

Jim Gebhardt: So driving up to the studio today, Lindsay was.

Prepared to drive thinking that I'd be coming home, you know, wrecked with no sleep and home late and, and the fact that I got eight and a half hours of sleep last night. I am, I'm ready to go today. 

Matthew Grishman: There you go. Thanks for sharing that. What a lovely lesson in curiosity. 

Jim Gebhardt: First, another, first, 

Matthew Grishman: an open-mindedness to, to get a first at this point in your life.

Wonderful. 

Jim Gebhardt: So let's flip it right back at you. Now that you've had time to percolate. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, oh, I know what I'm grateful for. I [00:05:00] mean, how could I not have just an incredible amount of gratitude coming off the weekend? We came off of, I'm grateful for Vermont and Fall Foliage and Killington and Mount Stowe and all these incredible, wonderful places, and for my nephew.

Ian Doyle and his new beautiful bride, Abby Doyle. They, uh, they got married this weekend Oh, awesome. In, in Killington, Vermont. My old, my oldest nephew, 

Jim Gebhardt: that's right around the corner from here, 

Matthew Grishman: right around the corner, up on the almost Canadian border next to Lake Champlain and kind of about a two hour drive from there once you fly to Burlington and Oh, it was just spectacular.

It was. My heart's full. It it was incredible to see family we haven't seen in a very, very long time. Um, 

Jim Gebhardt: weddings and funerals are good at that. 

Matthew Grishman: Well, it's felt like a lot of funerals lately. 

Jim Gebhardt: Well 'cause it has been. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. You and I are at that place in life where more of our people are closer to the 18th green than they are to the first tee box.

And it's felt like a lot of goodbyes and see you later. [00:06:00] And this was just a nice way to break that up. You know, between my oldest son Miles getting engaged a couple of weeks ago and Ian's wedding this past weekend and gratitude that Amy and I got to spend our 28th wedding anniversary amongst the fall foliage, something we haven't done since the day we were married in the fall foliage 28 years ago.

Ah, so that was a, a super, and the fact, 

Jim Gebhardt: fact they still have fall foliage 28 years later is, is pretty spectacular. 

Matthew Grishman: I mean, with all the AI and technology changes and electric vehicles, you'd think that, you know, fall foliage doesn't exist anymore. It was, it was just another really, really cool experience that we just got to be really, really present and had very, very, very little cell coverage.

So, Vermont, 

Jim Gebhardt: how nice. 

Matthew Grishman: Vermont has kind of stayed back in the 1980s with, 

Jim Gebhardt: they don't have the internets, 

Matthew Grishman: uh, very little internets and very little cell phones. So it was, it was kind of nice to be amongst the, uh, covered bridges and, uh, 

Jim Gebhardt: and the Oreo cookies, 

Matthew Grishman: uh, and the 17th and 18th century, uh, churches and cemeteries, and of course lots of Oreo [00:07:00] cookies because that's just how you roll at a wedding.

But yeah, lots, lots of gratitude for the weekend. 

Jim Gebhardt: Awesome. 

Matthew Grishman: It's nice to be back. 

Jim Gebhardt: Awesome. What are we talking about today? 

Matthew Grishman: Well, we're in the middle. We're, we're kind of in the middle of, uh, the next, 

Jim Gebhardt: aren't we always in the middle like an Oreo? 

Matthew Grishman: Always. 

Jim Gebhardt: Okay. 

Matthew Grishman: We're the cream filling between the chocolate sandwich?

Yeah. Yeah. I'm feeling very double stuffed today. We're rewinding here. 

Jim Gebhardt: We are shaping our story. We're in the middle of that phase of the whole wealth journey process. 

Matthew Grishman: Well, since we've unpacked the story. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yep. 

Matthew Grishman: Stage one. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yep. 

Matthew Grishman: And we've defined the story stage two. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right. 

Matthew Grishman: We now get to have a little dialogue on what it's like to shape your story.

Four steps. To the whole financial planning part of the process, one of the three legs of the stool, that we have this very equally balanced stool with three. Three equally important parts to helping any entrepreneur prepare for that big exit one day where we have that opportunity to prepare for life 3.0.

[00:08:00] And we're going through the second half of that financial planning process. We talked in the last couple of episodes about how really our two parts of the process, the personal and financial planning, are really integrated into one another. So even though we've kind of separated these parts out, these really are integrated within one another.

So as we talk through this idea of what it's like to go through this process of shaping your story through this part of a financial planning process. You're gonna hear some of the personal planning woven into this a little bit. 

Jim Gebhardt: Oh yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: It's just how we roll. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. I mean it's kind of like the, the old classic CAD software, right?

Where you can start to you, you had a design concept, right? Sure. That's the define in architectural land. Sure. But now we've gotta actually like go beyond the concept and like actually start to shape this thing and see ultimately, structurally. If it can stand, if it can weather the storms, that that will eventually happen.

And [00:09:00] that's what's so fun about this process is that it's very iterative with our clients in terms of, well, what does this look like? And then we go, you know, we run it through the software and we, we see, we, nah, well that's probably not what you're looking for, but what if we, what if we do this? 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah, 

Jim Gebhardt: right.

Matthew Grishman: Well, I've always appreciated. The role you and I play in this part, and I mean, I, I remember back to the role you played in this part for me because it was in between that defining my story and shaping my story, where I got a little clear on what it was gonna look like, what life could look like. Going forward.

And so this is where clarity meets action a little bit, where now we take a little bit of that clarity and put it into practice and this is what we do. One step at a time. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: To go out and build this thing. 

Jim Gebhardt: Well, and that's, and that clarity is the key piece, right? Yeah. It was 

Matthew Grishman: for me. 

Jim Gebhardt: We remodeled our house a couple years ago and the several years before that, our [00:10:00] designer friend who we eventually hired to help us with the.

Not so much the design of the house, but the interior spaces. She kept saying, you gotta go to different apps, go to different, you know, buy a different. Magazines home design, right? You gotta get clarity on what's your style, what you like, what you're looking for, what you really want this thing to turn out to be when you're done.

And so visually, if you can think of that in the context of a financial plan, right? That's where that clarity and knowing what you really want. Out of life 3.0, whether it's the next phase of life and the, and the sale of the business or the transition of the business hasn't happened yet, or this is going to be the phase of life post exit.

That's, that's what's so fun about this. 

Matthew Grishman: To think that it can be totally different than what you've been living is where I think I have the most fun. When you and I are sitting with a client 

Jim Gebhardt: and we see that a lot where clients want a very different Right, they're [00:11:00] gonna move. If they're gonna buy a different house, build a different house.

In one case, we have a client that's building two houses in Montana. 

Matthew Grishman: Right. 

Jim Gebhardt: Because one apparently isn't enough. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: So you need two. 

Matthew Grishman: Why would you stop at one if you can have two? 

Jim Gebhardt: Holy schmoley. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: That's 2 billion decisions to make. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. But just this, this idea, I mean a Yes. Most of the time when you and I are sitting with people, they have some idea.

Of what they want this to look like. What's really fun is when they don't 

Jim Gebhardt: for us, it's fun 

Matthew Grishman: for 

Jim Gebhardt: That's, it's a little terrifying 

Matthew Grishman: for 

Jim Gebhardt: them. Oh, 

Matthew Grishman: of course. Yeah. Well, and and, and the fun part for me has been knowing they're terrified. And again, going back to the old Eisenhower matrix of time management, how this kind of quadrant two stuff, this important but not urgent stuff.

I mean, this is where. It reveals why the procrastination and why we haven't put time into this planning is because I have no idea what it's gonna look like. And that idea scares [00:12:00] the crap outta me. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yes. 

Matthew Grishman: That there's no direction. Well, that, that's, I mean, 

Jim Gebhardt: oh, we got one of those coming up for you. 

Matthew Grishman: We do, 

Jim Gebhardt: yeah.

We have, uh, a new client that actually has been a asset management risk management client for quite a while, and now they're ready to do some. Some of our whole wealth journey planning. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, kind of exploring 

Jim Gebhardt: what's next. And the husband, the husband is not a clue on what's next. 

Matthew Grishman: I think you were, oh, I think 

Jim Gebhardt: life, life has all been about the work and the family and the kids and the, this work work and the family and the kids and the hobbies aren't there and the vision isn't there.

And there no clarity. Right. There's plenty of money. Plenty of money. 

Matthew Grishman: Is this our, is this our friend you were talking about? Probably needs a couple of years of just. Down? 

Jim Gebhardt: Nope. Different. That's a different one. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, a different 

Jim Gebhardt: one? Yes. That's a different one. Who? That client has retired and is on a lovely trip right now.

Matthew Grishman: Ah. 

Jim Gebhardt: Where we're actually going to be in the same city, in a European capital in another couple of weeks, and we might get together for a cafe latte. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, very nice. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: Very, very nice. 

Jim Gebhardt: Okay, so a new one. He no longer enjoys a [00:13:00] beer or two. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, oh, you told me that one too. Yeah. Well, well welcome even more into my club.

Jim Gebhardt: We could spend, we could spend the entire rest of the episode telling stories on clients that are either living their why or about to. 

Matthew Grishman: Well, okay, so here's what has to happen for I, I think for this part, to be successful, to be able to start shaping your story. What I think people get out of this part, if.

If they do, what's necessary is that clarity about, ooh, it's possible for me to figure out what's next. And not only possible, but take the work we've done up until this point, like unpacking the story and all these different assessments and the clarity compass, and now starting to create an action plan that has like something I need to do today.

Tomorrow and the next day, like one step at a time. That whole idea that, you know, how do you eat the elephant One bite at a time. Yeah. So that as we shape the [00:14:00] story, it can only happen if you're willing to put down the titles, the industries, the college major, the grad school, the degrees, all, all those labels that have defined the game up till now.

As long as you're willing to set all of that aside, because there's bias with all that stuff, right? We've seen it. 

Jim Gebhardt: Sure, sure. 

Matthew Grishman: That we're just gonna assume that because I've spent 30 or 40 years doing this, then whatever's going to be next has to be attached to what I've been doing. Well, the most fun I've ever had.

I've seen you have with clients is when we set all of that aside and have no expectation that there's any connection to that. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: And we're going to be open to the possibility of some completely different stuff. And that's when I have a lot of fun when, when somebody is scared to death of that possibility, but they, there's trust in the room and they just let it happen.

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. Yeah. And they, they need [00:15:00] to embrace that curiosity themselves. Yes. Like that's why this process takes time. It's not just, you know, two meetings and we're done and we're out because the client needs time to go let some of these things percolate. And, you know, if you're not old enough to know what a percolator is, uh, go look one up.

It's, you know, is the coffee maker my parents used to use when we had company. You need time to let these ideas percolate, right? And then. In this shape your story. This is where we're also then able to in keep keeping with a little construction theme, do a little structural engineering and stress testing.

This scenario, right. Whatever the scenario is that the client is looking to pursue is we can help them validate the financial backing of it, the financial validity to it, because they can't see that on their own. Sure. Right. They can't, they can't see all those different variables and wonder, you know, is this all gonna work out okay?

Right. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, come 

on. 

Jim Gebhardt: That's the, that's the whole beauty of this process. [00:16:00] 

Matthew Grishman: How many people have we met with wealth from a couple of million bucks to a couple of hundred million bucks? And in all cases, in between, uncertain that we have enough 

Jim Gebhardt: Correct. Based on the desired lifestyle. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. And, and part of that is by getting clear on what that lifestyle looks like and what that lifestyle costs to support.

Jim Gebhardt: Right. We have a brand new client who is in her seventies, has mid to high seven figures in terms of liquid net worth. Lives in a very basic home in San Ramon, California. Drives a 23-year-old Prius and is wondering if she has enough. 

Matthew Grishman: Hmm. 

Jim Gebhardt: When I don't think between her pensions and her social security, she spends $4 a day.

Right. I mean, you know. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: I think you're gonna have 

Matthew Grishman: enough. Well, okay, so. I'm gonna point the finger at somebody and blame somebody for why people have that. 

Jim Gebhardt: Mm. 

Matthew Grishman: And I'm not gonna suggest these were the original people to [00:17:00] blame for. Why 

Jim Gebhardt: are we blaming people or a company? 

Matthew Grishman: Well, ARN isn't a company made up of people.

Yeah. But we just 

Jim Gebhardt: don't, the people we know the company but not the people. 

Matthew Grishman: Right, right. And 

Jim Gebhardt: I'm sure they're lovely people. 

Matthew Grishman: They, they, they are love, they were lovely people. I got to meet a bunch of these lovely people, but back in the day there was an insurance company called ING, the International Netherlands Group.

Okay, I'll give them a little bit of credit. 'cause it was a very catchy television commercial, but I think it also messed with people for a long time. This was, uh oh, probably early two thousands, early, early two thousands. Early to mid two thousands is when I first started seeing this television commercial.

Now I think they're just called ads. Back in the day when you would sit down and watch a television show every 10 or 12 minutes, there would be three or four minutes of commercials, and this commercial were random people walking down the street with a big old number. On their shoulder, under their [00:18:00] arm, carrying it as a bag.

Jim Gebhardt: It was three dimensional. 

Matthew Grishman: It was a three dimensional number, 

Jim Gebhardt: orange number with commas and dollar signs and yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: That represented your total retirement savings. And the title of of the commercial was, what's your number? 

Jim Gebhardt: It was very catchy. 'cause we're talking about it 20 years later, 

Matthew Grishman: right? And Exactly.

And in some cases you would see people walking around with. A suitcase that was in the form of $623,412. Then the next person was carrying what appeared to be like an old boombox on their shoulder, but it was in the form of $1,612,614. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right? 

Matthew Grishman: And that 

Jim Gebhardt: commas, andal 

Matthew Grishman: commas and all with dollar signs and, and the whole theme is your number and what you need for the rest of your life is unique to you, which was great, right?

Because it's not some universal every retiree needs. $2 million to retire. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right, 

Matthew Grishman: right. So I, I appreciate the fact that they made it [00:19:00] unique. Everybody's a snowflake, a fingerprint with unique needs and dollars. 

Jim Gebhardt: Well, and then the fact that, you know, once I achieve that number, I've arrived. I'm good. I'm done.

There you go. 

Matthew Grishman: This is, this is where I think it starts to fall apart. 

Jim Gebhardt: Ah, 

Matthew Grishman: is that it gives you this sense of arrival, first and foremost, that 

Jim Gebhardt: an illusion. 

Matthew Grishman: I hit a number and I've arrived and I'm good. And then somehow everything's on autopilot and everything's good. 

Jim Gebhardt: I just was at a dinner with a, a bunch of guys a couple Fridays ago, and not the ING commercial, but the concept of, so what's, what's the number?

Matthew Grishman: The number? Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: What's the nu, and it wasn't specific to the individual. It was just like a generic, 

Matthew Grishman: what's the number? 

Jim Gebhardt: What's the number? Right? Like, what do you, wait, Jim? Is it 

Matthew Grishman: five? 

Jim Gebhardt: Is it 10 in this, you're in this business, you do this all the time. I mean, why don't you just come out and tell us what's like, what's the number 

Matthew Grishman: right?

Jim Gebhardt: I said, you guys are, you're being really funny. I wish this was being recorded. Or we had could like just like have a hanging mic and just make this a podcast episode. 'cause this is [00:20:00] ridiculous. 

Matthew Grishman: Right, 

Jim Gebhardt: right. In the same way that the, the way the food pyramid has been designed to generically give advice on what's appropriate for everyone.

This is very granular. Yes. This is very individualized on your lifestyle and your habits, and your preferences, and your wishes, and your wants and all of this good stuff. Sure. And it was just, it was very funny because the whole time we were sitting there, I, I envisioned. Everybody having their number on their shoulder, like it was the, like the ING commercial of 

Matthew Grishman: course.

Jim Gebhardt: And as they got up and walked around to get the dessert, dessert or whatever it was, you know, they got their, they, they got their number on their shoulder. 

Matthew Grishman: Well, other than just being a pain in their ass and calling them out on really, guys, did you share with them at all what goes into 'cause? 'cause the number.

I mean there, I 

Jim Gebhardt: wanna clear, I didn't wanna clear the room. I said you gotta listen to episode 1 65 and then you can get the juice from the, the squeeze that you're looking for right now. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure, sure. Or the squeeze from the juice. 

Jim Gebhardt: Sure. 

Matthew Grishman: Either way, it works both [00:21:00] ways. You can juice the squeeze or squeeze the juice.

Jim Gebhardt: Exactly. 

Matthew Grishman: We do everything here on the whole wealth journey. What did you explain to them? How did you explain, I mean, how much of the process did you get into with the 

Jim Gebhardt: guys? I, I, it, it was not. The, uh, appropriate time or place to get that deep into it other than to say that this is a very specific conversation, series of conversations and process that we go through to help you answer that.

And one, one friend who's not a client and a do it yourselfer was pretty staunch on his number, like it's 10. 

Matthew Grishman: Okay. 

Jim Gebhardt: It's, I'm convinced it's 10. It's gotta be 10. 

Matthew Grishman: How do you come up with that? 

Jim Gebhardt: And that's what I said. Well, what's that based on 

Matthew Grishman: 10,000? 

Jim Gebhardt: Sure. With the bigger m 

Matthew Grishman: Ah, 

Jim Gebhardt: he's like, well, the 4% rule. I said, okay.

I 

Matthew Grishman: mean, what's, what's the 4% rule? 

Jim Gebhardt: Very good. Thanks for slowing us down. Yeah, yeah. The old 4% rule goes way back to the days of Methuselah. 

Matthew Grishman: Oh, fantastic. 

Jim Gebhardt: Which was Ween Howard's mother, 

Matthew Grishman: when we used an abacus to figure out retirement planning. 

Jim Gebhardt: Exactly. 

Matthew Grishman: All right, good. 

Jim Gebhardt: So you [00:22:00] take whatever your number is. 

Matthew Grishman: So 10 million in this case, 

Jim Gebhardt: times 4%.

Matthew Grishman: Oh 

Jim Gebhardt: 4% is what's referred to as the withdrawal rule, which was an old rule of thumb before they had computers and all this good stuff. Simply said, you take whatever you have times 4%, that's what you can safely withdraw from your portfolio, assuming it's invested. And for our compliance friends, assuming it's invested in a 60 40 stock bond 

Matthew Grishman: ish, 

Jim Gebhardt: ish kind of allocation, 

Matthew Grishman: right?

Jim Gebhardt: That you could safely withdraw that on an annual basis and not run outta money 

Matthew Grishman: likely over the next 30 or so years. 

Jim Gebhardt: So I, I was. Enjoying, we'll make up a name for the sake of the innocent Bob. Sure. Bob's very simplistic. It's 10 with the 4% rule, you know, I'm gonna consume 400 grand a year. Great. Great.

That sounds like a very reasonable plan. 

Matthew Grishman: So do you sense that. Just hearing Bob describe this, that [00:23:00] Bob just kind of took a snapshot of what his current lifestyle is like and figures. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: This is what I need to maintain what I'm currently doing. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. Or did Bob with some padding. 

Matthew Grishman: Okay. Okay. I get, I mean, I guess that is one way to do it.

Jim Gebhardt: It, it was very kind of that classic, you know, how do you measure the wind? Do you stick your thumb in your mouth with the, 

Matthew Grishman: I'm guessing 

Jim Gebhardt: you wet your thumb and you stick it out in the air and oh, it's coming from that direction. Okay. That's, that's about as scientific as I think he wanted to go. 

Matthew Grishman: I'm guessing, correct me if I'm wrong, that your friend Bab has spent a career working for other people and he's not an entrepreneur.

Jim Gebhardt: That is correct. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. That was an easy one because to me that just as you describe somebody who is just assuming that whatever my current lifestyle is, is going to continue to me, doesn't sound because an entrepreneur, the people that you and I are meeting more and more of, and people who are wired like you and me, it's like, no, no.

What's next? And, and it's like, it's exciting to think of we're gonna do something completely different. I mean, [00:24:00] we may use some of our skills, our talents, our superpowers, our past experiences, our values, our relationships, right? These other asset classes within our whole wealth to help us define how we allocate our time and our energy going forward.

But you and I have always been very excited at new. At something different at building something sparkling 

Jim Gebhardt: butterfly. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah, absolutely. And, and many of the entrepreneurs that we're meeting are looking to design that life 3.0 different. They just don't know what that's going to look like. Right. 

Jim Gebhardt: Not an extended period of no longer working in leisure, so, right.

A 30 year period of leisure. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. Oh absolutely. Yes. It, it's gonna be building something new and to figure out what that looks like, whether it's a business or. Volunteer work or a shed in your backyard, what, whatever that or, and all of that, whatever that's going to look like, requires some planning to come into that number [00:25:00] to figure out what that looks like.

I mean, 

Jim Gebhardt: and, and some good validation on that number. 

Matthew Grishman: Absolutely. 

Jim Gebhardt: Hence, that's why we call it shaping. 

Matthew Grishman: Yes. Your 

Jim Gebhardt: story. 

Matthew Grishman: Yes. Now, one thing that is common with a friend like Bob. Who's not an entrepreneur and most entrepreneurs is that retirement. And you and I know this just from what we've been doing for all these years.

Retirement isn't what it was 20, 30, 40, 50 years ago. Retirement isn't this 15 or 20 year period of nothingness. That doesn't last very long. I mean, retirement now is potentially like, what's next? Life 3.0, whatever that looks like. You know, we're talking a long time and a lot can change within a human's life over that kind of time period.

Jim Gebhardt: Absolutely. 

Matthew Grishman: Especially if and will 

Jim Gebhardt: change. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. I mean. Even if we take the whole entrepreneur, I'm gonna build something new out of it. And look from even a [00:26:00] traditional retirement sense, the first decade that you are off doing what's next is going to look a lot different than the second decade and the third decade.

So understanding of this number that you think you've figured out, that's great. How much of that number do you need now? Some, how much of that number do you need soon? 

Jim Gebhardt: Right. 

Matthew Grishman: How much of that number do you need later for those later decades? And how much of that number maybe will you not consume? 

Jim Gebhardt: So you may never need it.

Matthew Grishman: You may never need some of it. I mean, I don't know about you, but do you plan on consuming the house you live in? Like do you plan on turning that into a liquid pile of money for you to spend one day? Or is that always gonna represent. The shelter. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. Well, as we like to say, we live in the house, not on the house.

Matthew Grishman: Right, 

Jim Gebhardt: right, 

Matthew Grishman: right. 

Jim Gebhardt: And in a lot of cases, and we have a number of clients where this has happened, it ends up being the backdoor long-term care plan. 

Matthew Grishman: [00:27:00] Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right. If it has to be, you live, you live way out and you spend everything else down. And now you've got, you know, two and a half million dollars of equity in a home, or a million dollars of equity in home, whatever the number is.

So, no. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. I don't know about 

Jim Gebhardt: you or there's legacy. We have lots of clients that have legacy property somewhere. 

Matthew Grishman: Right. 

Jim Gebhardt: A family cabin, a family home, somewhere that. There's really no intention to ever dispose of that. It's gonna, it's gonna get passed on. So that goes into that never category. And we have clients where the family business is not going to be sold.

It's going to be transitioned to that next generation. And that too goes into this as we like to call it, never barrel. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. Well that, I guess that's kind of the point. And what ultimately. If you're going to work with an advisor to help figure out what's next. This is, this is a really important part this, this idea of shaping your story and understanding, okay, sure, what's my number?

How much do I have to have to support whatever's next? But it takes a lot of [00:28:00] planning work. It takes some form of a clarity compass and a clarity compass action plan to like flush out. What I value most and how I want to allocate my most precious resource of time and how that connects to my relationships and experiences and my health and my values and my superpowers and oh my right.

So, 

Jim Gebhardt: yep. 

Matthew Grishman: When we figure out what that number is, well now how we structure that number, how we. Position those assets to support you over your lifetime. Really depends upon when you need those assets to show up for different phases of your life. To just universally invest it in one way, one business, one bucket, 

Jim Gebhardt: one timeline.

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. Has really, I mean, that's where I think that old TV commercial was really just misleading, is that I've got this one big sum of money and I'm gonna put it all in this like 60, 40, [00:29:00] 60% stock, 40% bond or this, 

Jim Gebhardt: and I'm gonna need all of it. At one point in the future. 

Matthew Grishman: Right. 

Jim Gebhardt: Whenever that is. 

Matthew Grishman: Right, 

Jim Gebhardt: right.

Matthew Grishman: Exactly. 

Jim Gebhardt: That's some of the work I'm the most proud of in terms of what we do is helping clients look at the, the, the risk management aspect of all this. Right? I mean, you, you and I both grew up in the brokerage communities. They're traditionally referred to as asset management organizations, right. 

Matthew Grishman: Right.

Jim Gebhardt: Not a lot of emphasis on planning. They're trying to do more planning, whatever. That's not what we're here to talk about. And for us, it's been much more of a risk management conversation because as you and I grew up in this concept in money management, speak of a buy and hold investor, right? Or what we, what we call buy, hold, and hope.

Right? Hoping that it works out okay. Hoping that your timing is, is great, so you're not like a different client, Bob. Who was 64 when 2008 happened, and he got washed out to sea and was just completely blown to pieces. 

Matthew Grishman: Sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: And then shows up on our shore with how can you help me [00:30:00] put me back together? I'm like, well, you're 64.

What do you ha We're taking lots of risk. You got clobbered. I, I mean, we're not, we don't have some magic drawer of a, of a wand that we can wave. Right. So we are passionate, passionate, passionate advocates for this concept of managing risk. And that's why this money barrel concept of having some cash set aside for now, right?

And we define now as somewhere between 1, 2, 3, super conservative clients might go four years worth of cash. 

Matthew Grishman: Well, it's like you've always said, cash is an asset class and it has a very specific job and that's just to be here, to be available. To know 

Jim Gebhardt: it is for us. I, I think we are very unique in, in our land.

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. Yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: That, that we believe in cashs and asset classes strongly as we do. 

Matthew Grishman: I think our industry's getting better about this. I'm gonna be complimentary. I hope so. I'm, I'm hearing it more. And I have hope within our industry that we're recognizing the importance of having liquidity with the, with how [00:31:00] fast markets go up and go down.

The more and more advisors I meet, although they may be getting introduced to the idea of cash as an asset class for the first time, 'cause they're talking to one of us, they're seeing and they're curious enough and open-minded enough to realize that. That makes a lot of sense and I'm finding more and more of our peers are aligned in the thinking.

The more these conferences you and I are hanging out at. Uh, we're not as alone as we think we are, which is a really, really good 

Jim Gebhardt: thing. Well, that's lovely. That's lovely. 

Matthew Grishman: Yes. 

Jim Gebhardt: The thing that that does first and foremost is that it gives you time and space. Sure. Right. If things in the world get a little nutty, like are the, I mean, here in, in the latter part of 2025, is the world nutty at all?

I mean, is it, is there anything to get worked up about 

Matthew Grishman: That's never nutty. 

Jim Gebhardt: Okay. 

It's 

Matthew Grishman: always smooth sailing, 

Jim Gebhardt: so it gives you time and space to be able to breathe through whatever craze is going on, on the planet. Right. So then in that context of the Soon Barrel, we have a block of money that's up next.

It's baseball playoff season. One of your favorite times of year. Sure. [00:32:00] And for a non passionate baseball fan, this is what I can digest. I can't digest 162 game season, but I can digest a series of playoff games. Sure. And so for me, this is the OnDeck Circle. This is the next batter in the lineup where.

Strategically, we have investments in that OnDeck Circle, that soon Barrel that are getting ready to be deployed in a couple of years. 

Yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: That are gonna go backfill that soon Barrel. 

Matthew Grishman: That's our client, sorry, who built two houses in, excuse me. The Now, the now barrel. Right. That's the client who was building two houses in, in Montana.

We knew three or four years ago that this was on deck. This was part of the plan. Yeah. So we had a little bit of time. 

Jim Gebhardt: Yeah. 

Matthew Grishman: To let that money percolate. Grow a little bit, but there are very, very unique securities that we can use that are comfortable in that three or four year timeframe where there's enough risk that we have the potential for a little bit of growth, but [00:33:00] enough risk management.

If everything gets kind of wonky and crazy, we're not, you know, fully exposed to where we're gonna lose our shirts. Ideally. Hopefully that's the, the idea. Of course, we can't guarantee anything Nope. In this industry, 

Jim Gebhardt: but that's like having the airbags in the car. 

Matthew Grishman: Absolutely. 

Jim Gebhardt: Right. You're still in the accident.

Matthew Grishman: Right. 

Jim Gebhardt: But it softens the blow it, it provides safety to all those in the car and it's still not fun to be in the accident. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah. 

Jim Gebhardt: You're gonna be able to probably walk away and not be too banged up. Sure. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah, sure. 

Jim Gebhardt: And, and so then we, you know, if you think of this in a bit of a waterfall coming from the mountains up high with the later barrel and then backfilling the soon barrel, and then backfilling the now barrel, then we can go out longer.

On that later barrel in terms of the timeline that we would need those, you know, those fruits of the labor, like a vineyard or something that needs seven years before it's gonna produce a grape. Sure. We need time for that. So what we've [00:34:00] done in this process is we've been able to layer in a. Different periods of time that this money is going to be used.

And since they don't have us in control of the markets yet, 

Matthew Grishman: we're working on that. 

Jim Gebhardt: Oh, come on. It buys the client time with whatever may be happening. Sure. Since they don't get to repeat their fifties, they don't get to repeat their sixties, they don't get to repeat their seventies, and this is one of the ways in our risk management process that we're able to do that.

Matthew Grishman: Well, you and I definitely have acknowledged. A risk management bias based on one of the decades that you and I grew up in, in the business. You and I smack dab in the middle of our career. Saw the.com bubble pop. Mm-hmm. Yep. The recession that followed. Yep. The, the, the housing crisis, the, the mortgage crisis that we felt coming and then that popped and the entire world went to shit in 2008 and it took years to recover.

And, and you and I, in the middle of our career experienced. The great lost decade, a [00:35:00] 10 year period of time where the s and p five hundred's annual annualized rate of return was 0% for 10 years. If you put a dollar in the s and p 500 on January 1st, 2000, and you rode that puppy out 10 years, 

Jim Gebhardt: it was gonna double.

Matthew Grishman: Your dollar was still worth a dollar. Period. 

Jim Gebhardt: It was supposed to double. 

Matthew Grishman: Yeah, it was supposed to. In fact, it was supposed to double in seven years because the average return of the s and p up till then was about 10.5% a year, which means your money doubles every seven years. 

Jim Gebhardt: I know we have members of the tribe that live through that.

Matthew Grishman: Sure. A absolutely. So you and I have done a really good job of acknowledging this massive gaping hole in the middle of a 30 year career that created some, some bias within us, some risk management bias. It's the only 10 year period in time that's ever happened. So the reality is for money that we have later, and this is where you and I have made some adjustments to how we think and see [00:36:00] things when we have more time.

You and I have gotten a better appetite for taking on a little bit more risk because it's the only 10 year period that's ever happened. Yet. If you look back at all the up and down years of the market, markets go up a hell of a lot more than they go down. That is very true. So when we have the time to let an asset bake for the future.

We're not opposed as risk managers to taking an appropriate amount of risk. 

Jim Gebhardt: Amen. 

Matthew Grishman: Yes. So getting these money barrels structured is the key to getting out and living your why, and that's what we're gonna tackle in the next episode. You know, today. Getting that story shaped and developed and tested and Oh, absolutely.

With a bias towards risk management. Looking at your assets in terms of when you're going to need them over your lifetime based on the things that matter most to you. That's how we believe Asset management shaping your [00:37:00] story, that's what that's all about. So. Let's get into, uh, what it looks like to actually get out there in stage four and live your why, but we'll do that in the next episode of the Whole Wealth Journey.

Jim Gebhardt: I love it. I can't wait. 

Matthew Grishman: And with that, my friend, 

Jim Gebhardt: that's a wrap.

Matthew Grishman: Thanks for joining us today on the Whole Wealth Journey. Are you ready to start planning for a future that's rich in wealth and wellbeing? Then click like and subscribe, and make sure you don't miss a single episode. Of the whole wealth journey. 

Jim Gebhardt: So if we've struck a nerve with you today, where do people go?

Matthew Grishman: You can find us@gebhartwholewealth.com. That's G-E-B-H-A-R-D-T whole wealth.com. We'll see you next time. 

Jeff Holden: Jim Gebhart is a registered representative of Integrity Alliance, LLC Securities and Investment Advisory Services offered through Integrity Alliance LLC. [00:38:00] Member, SIPC, gab Hart Group Incorporated is not affiliated with Integrity Wealth.

Jim Gab Hart and Matthew Grishman are investment advisor representatives of Gab Hart Group Incorporated a registered investment advisor. The opinions in this podcast are for informational purposes only and are not intended to provide specific advice or investment recommendations to determine which investment or financial advice may be appropriate for you.

Consult a financial advisor prior to investing. Any reference to market performance is based on historical information and there is no expressed or implied guarantee of future performance. Opinions expressed on this program do not necessarily reflect those of Integrity Alliance LLC. The topics discussed and opinions given are not intended to address the specific needs of any listener.

Gbb Hart Group Incorporated does not offer legal or tax advice. Listeners are encouraged to discuss their financial needs [00:39:00] with the appropriate professional regarding your individual circumstance.