The Unexpected Career Podcast

Howard Young: Hospitality to Global Sales Leader

• Megan Dunford • Season 2 • Episode 7

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Season 2 Episode 7: Howard had dreams of becoming a Hotel Manager and followed that dream before ultimately pivoting and building a career as a Sales Leader.

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Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people, about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. This week's guest is Howard Young, Global Head of Partners at Convera. Howard started his career in hospitality before eventually making a change, and ultimately building his career in sales.

Megan:

Thank you so much for agreeing to do this. I'm really excited. Yeah. So I always start right from the beginning when you were a little Howard. What did you think you wanted to be when you grew up?

Howard:

I dunno why Megan, but I was always from probably the age of seven is my earliest memory. And I can always remember telling my grandma this, I was gonna be a hotel manager and there used to be a hotel chain called Trust House 40 owned by Rocco 40. And they were like the glamor hotels. And as a 7-year-old, I just always envisioned being a hotel manager of a big five star hotel somewhere. And I used to tell my grandma that she could come in. Be one of our cooks in the kitchen'cause she was an amazing cook. And my auntie could help us with the cleaning and, keep it in the family and it just stuck. And I dunno why I, and for throughout all my school days I, I did okay at school but I never really enjoyed school. But my goal was always get into, I wanted to be a hotel manager. It's hospitality trade and that's what I did for a bit.

Megan:

That's amazing. I could definitely see you being really good at that just'cause you're so personable and warm. But it's an unusual choice at seven.

Howard:

Yeah. Yeah. But I'd say I stuck with it, did my qualifications. I wanted to leave school as soon as I could because mm-hmm. Whilst I did okay. I didn't really enjoy it there. So I went to college and I did hotel. It was, what was it? Hotel and catering, institutional operations. We went, they taught us how to cook. They taught us about wine. They taught us about making beds. They taught us about business, marketing, sales. Wow. So the fall. Oh yeah. The full hit. Yeah. Interestingly, like probably my first year, in the second half of my first year, they sent us out on a work placement and I went to a big hotel in Southport, where I was growing up in college. I. And it was a work experience. So I was a 17-year-old and I often think back to this moment as though maybe it was Facebook, the job they had me doing was going through the yellow pages and cold calling businesses to see if they wanted to come to the hotel to do business and conferences. And of course at that point, I knew nothing about sales as a professional at that point, but that's what I ended up doing. And yeah, as a 17-year-old in this office with all these people. Petrifying, like making these cold calls these businesses, see if they wanted to come and have a look around our conference and bankers in suite. And actually when I look back, that was my first sort of real dance with sales.

Megan:

Yeah. Amazing. But you said that you did I. Start your career in the hotel business. So you did that in college, but what was your first job after college?

Howard:

Yep. So I did college, then I went to university and did the next iteration of it again. Did some amazing work experience. They sent me to Guernsey for six months to Oh wow. Work at a hotel there. The hotel where the queen used to stay actually in St. Peter's, port Guernsey, which was amazing. And again, just went around all the different departments. It was there that one of my when you do the. Two fakes and a true story. Mm-hmm. Getting to know your session. It was there where I had to evict Oliver Reed from the bar.'cause he was drunken ing at a bar. Made one of my claims to fame. Um. But yeah, then I left university and started interviewing and applying for jobs in hospitality trade and had a couple of opportunities it to be like an assistant management, a restaurant in Lincolnshire mm-hmm. Of all places. Which, with the Peter connection that I have now is also maybe a.to where my path was lying. And I ended up getting a job as an assistant manager in a pub in Chester. And I was live living in Chester at the time, so that all made sense. And I went for the interview and a lady opened the door to me for my interview. And that lady now is my wife of 30 years.

Megan:

Oh, wow. I That's amazing. I didn't know that's how you met.

Howard:

Yeah, so she worked at the pub and I got a job as an assistant manager, so. 20 years old, 21 years old. And then, yeah, met my wife now she is now within about three months actually of joining as an assistant manager, the landlady of the pub, the licensee mm-hmm. Went on long term sick with stress. Oh wow. And I perhaps should have picked up on that message, but I ended up as a 20-year-old going into the local magistrates court and getting the license for the pub. Wow. And I ran that pub for 12 months as a manager with my wife now as she is now. And it was awesome. We had a time of our lives. And then we ended up moving to another pub in Reham. She got a job at a pub as well. Mm-hmm. And then we had our son. So we're 21 years old with a baby, both of us working in hospitality. Not earning the greatest amount of money. Yeah. Someone, when I was dreaming of being a hotel manager, there wasn't somebody on my shoulder saying, you have to earn lots of hours and you don't earn very much. Mm-hmm. But I I did it anyway. But then, yeah, the realization of six days a week split shifts, eight till five, eight till midnight, six days a week live in some cases, and trying to bring a baby up, that was never gonna work. So that's a lot. Exactly. So that's where my hospitality career ended. I needed something to do and I didn't grow up wanting to be a salesperson. And I don't think anybody grows up wanting to be a salesperson. Generally something goes wrong in their life. For me, it was something was going right in my life'cause of my family. But yeah, I ended up applying for a job in a call center that was, that would teach me how to sell first. And that's where the magic began. Megan.

Megan:

Wow, that's amazing. So you started in a call center and then I did. Where did you go from there?

Howard:

So I was I stayed there for six years actually. And I loved it. So it was a, it was real old school. Firstly, they put us through a six week induction program. Mm-hmm. And I honestly say without that induction program, I wouldn't be where I am today. It taught me the real basics of sales, you know? Fact finding, building rapport, asking good questions, linking a feature to a benefit. All the buzzwords. Yeah, all the stuff I roll it Now in sales training that I do today, I still use some of the training that I got there that.

Megan:

Yeah. Foundational information

Howard:

absolutely ingrained in me because then when I went on the sales floor, and this sales floor is probably the size of three or four football pitches and there's six floors of it. Wow. It was like an affiliate marketing firm, part of the bank of Scotland at the time. And we were selling personal loans, so I was selling personal loans to catalog customers, people who were buying stuff out of a catalog. And through the affiliation we were able to offer preferential rates on personal loans. Mm-hmm. But yeah, it was headphones on. Predictive dialer. My territory, if you like, was the surnames, beginning with p and o. So I had all the Peters, the Pritchards, the O'Neills, the Olivias they were my surname. So all over the country, and I'm just sitting there every day and these calls to come into my ear and it's my job then to convince these people to, look at the benefits of a personal loan through the Bank of Scotland and taught me a lot about. Real rigid KPIs. Mm-hmm. Structured leading indicators. We had to spend four hours a day on phone. We had to do 120 dials. We had to do 40 of 60 affected calls a day. I used to work 12 till eight 30. That was the shift Monday to Wednesday.'cause we had to try and catch people when they were at home, right? Yeah. And then, and if you weren't on your dial spin or your talk time target close the play Wednesday, you had to do a late on Thursday and Friday as well. Whereas if you were on target, you could do a 10 till six shift Thursday, Friday. Mm-hmm. You don't wanna be doing cold calls at half eight on a Friday night, let tell you no. No one wants to be answering the phone to Nope. Very. It did happen. And anyway, so yeah, I, I. I stuck at that. I really enjoyed it. We used to have a real great sales camaraderie. Got some of my best friends today I used to work with then and then I moved again organically, just moved through into a team leader position. So I'm like, I'm 23, 24, managing these other cult, these salespeople and learning a lot, but also making many mistakes. Yeah. Right. And then. My wife got pregnant with another another child. I was actually working in Manchester at this time, so I was commuting from Chester to Manchester and again, finishing at eight 30, getting home at 10 with a baby came onto. So no idea. Exactly. That's when I made the decision to look for something else and I went into the first faray of field sales and life on the road rather than telesales, which was awesome. But again, a huge part of my journey.

Megan:

What are you doing now? And what was the path to get there?'cause obviously I know a little bit about what you're doing now, but yeah, yeah. Just even the time I've known you, it's been a journey. So I'm really curious about how you progressed and got into the industry you're in now, and then now into this role that you're in now.

Howard:

Yeah. So I'll continue where I was to take you where I am now. So as I left that call center role I was looking for any old sales job, but I wanted to be ideally on the road. Yeah. I saw a very tiny, this is probably before the headhunters sort of world that we know today. And in the local newspaper, I saw a role field sales representative for a software training company based in North Wales where I was living. And so I went for the interview. It was with the two people they were a couple. They owned the business. Their office was their living room. And they basically had a couple of converted coaches that they'd converted into mobile classrooms. I. And they were providing training on Microsoft products.'cause Microsoft was just coming to the boil. Then it seems weird talking about, just people teaching people how to use Word, but that's what, so my role was to basically grow sales to a million quid turnover. Mm-hmm. By basically selling to corporates councils, hospitals, the ability to provide onsite software training. Offsite. So we'd drive the coach to the car park. Everybody could come out of the office, go and do the training in a, out of the way, but still be on site if need to be.

Megan:

Quite an interesting idea actually.

Howard:

It was cool. Really cool. Yeah. Because people needed to know to use this stuff, so I was selling software training programs and my remit, I had a desk, I had a computer, so I was sitting in their, like half in their kitchen, half in their living room. Mm-hmm. My first job was to. Make a flyer. And I remember I had a big pile of blue cardboard and I didn't know how to do word myself, so I had to get taught how to use Word and created a flyer for mm-hmm. Eight. It was, Hm. So, hmm. Software training. That was the name of the company. And it was like mobile training on site, but offsite. And I printed all this stuff out myself. I did mail shots, sent'em out to 40 companies at a time, cold calls, cold, called raised appointments, drove the length and breadth of the country selling this thing. So I was the first employee. When I left there, three, four years later, I was managing a sales team of eight hunters. Wow. I had two account managers. I was overseeing the office. We had eight classroom mobile coaches, and we'd also bought two HTVs that we conversed into lorries as well, and we were turning in excess of a million pounds. So from that, absolutely nothing to that in a short period of time. Probably one of my greatest achievements. I I loved it, but at the time, I was 28 Now. and I'm managing this large sales team who are all like beating me up about their comp plans and their targets, and I'm just a sales guy, right? And I'm like, what the hell's happening to me? The owners of the business were investing in a project down in Anglesea, building a property. So I was basically running the company and I just had the moment where this is not what I want. I'm a salesperson. I wanna be individual contributor. I am never managing salespeople ever again. That's when I started looking for another job. And funny story, but I actually interviewed a second interview with a credit reference agency down in London, and I was taking unpaid leave from the company. They knew I was leaving. Mm-hmm. But they were supporting me, but I had to take unpaid leave, so I'd just driven all the way down to London for this second interview, and about 30 minutes from home, they called me to say, I've not got the job. I was pretty gutty'cause I really wanted this job. And then five minutes after that, the same recruitment consultant who sent me down there for that one said to me, you need to be in Redding for two o'clock tomorrow. There's another interview for you. It's perfect for you. And honestly, I said, I'm not doing it. I can't be bothered. It's too far to go. Yeah. On no pay. And he said, honestly, it's a new business hunting role for a company called Travelex, selling Foreign Exchange and Payments. You'll have a 20 minute interview, and if you get the job, they'll tell you there and then, and you'll be away. So I went, go on then. So I did it. Turned back around the next morning, drove down to Redding, met the two sales managers David Gill, David Clark. I remember the interview vividly. 20 minutes. It was Sell yourself. That's what I had to do. Sell meself. Yeah. And I walked back to the car park, which is about five minutes away, and as I got back in the car, they called me and told me I got the job. And that's where my career in FX and payments began. Which was, that's amazing. I was totally outta my depth. I knew nothing about fx, nothing about payments, had real imposter syndrome. I remember being in the induction program with these other eight colleagues. Mm-hmm. Who again, some of them are some good friends now, and thinking, I'm not gonna survive here. This, this is gonna be odd. And my first day, November the first 2000 was the day that. Lloyd Dorf, but at Travelex actually bought Thomas Cook Financial Services, a real David versus Goliath moment. Amazing moment in the history of probably of the business actually, and yeah, I've not looked back since. I spent seven years as an individual contributor. I was never managing salespeople ever again. I was part of a formidable team for those first seven years. Again, forging amazing alliances with great people, some of whom are my best friends now. And then in 2007, a few bits and pieces happened. A spinoff company. A couple of people left and an opportunity presented itself to become the manager of my own team that I was part of, yeah. And it just felt right. And they now jumped. There we go. That's how it all began.

Megan:

So you had said never again being a manager, but it felt right this time? Yeah, what about it felt different? How did you make that decision?

Howard:

I think maturity, you know, I'd age, my kids were older now, so they were still quite young at this time. But I had a bit more stability at home. I was confident in what I was doing and how I was doing it. Mm-hmm. Because. I'd been successful as an individual contributor. I knew the team that I was taking on was the team that I was part of, and I knew how strong that team was. And that first year, actually, 2007, that team, we hit Target and every single member of the team hit Target as well that year. Wow. So a hundred percent above. A hundred percent, which is something I'm super proud of. Yeah, it just felt right. Took, I was in Belfast at the time with my wife and that's when the opportunity presents itself. Mm-hmm. I remember sitting on the bed talking to her about it, and she said, you never wanted to manage salespeople again. I said, I know, but I think maybe I'm, it's ready to have a, have another go and yeah it's gone from there. And I wouldn't change anything. Wouldn't change anything.

Megan:

That's amazing. And now, you're in a big global role, so that's quite a change as well.

Howard:

I'm really lucky to have worked with some amazing people and work for an amazing company that has nurtured my talents, right? Mm-hmm. I've I don't think I've ever actually applied for a role while I've been here, and yet over the last 20 odd years, my career trajectory has gone really well, right? I couldn't wish for anything more. I don't have a cv. I haven't done a CV for 20 years. Because I've not needed one. Right? Mm-hmm. And I've been able to move up the ladder at the times when it was right to do so. There was a couple of times when it felt a bit soon and I was going out my comfort zone. Yeah. And I had a couple of those ouch moments, but we all have them, but in we go and yeah. I, having, ran the UK business. I was the sales director for UK Europe for a period. I had a couple of years in sales operations in a, with a global remit. Mm-hmm. And then came back to sales when I took on the partnerships role at Western Union as was in 2019. And yeah, here I am now. I'm leading our global employee services and integrated channel vertical reporting directly into our CCO managing a large global team, multimillion dollar target. I'm feeling like an 18-year-old again it's unbelievable. Although I am looking forward to retiring, I'll be honest with you. It's getting closer.

Megan:

It's amazing. When you say feeling like an 18-year-old again, I mean it's such a gift to still love your job and not everyone can say that. Especially, you know, in a long career.

Howard:

Yeah I've been really lucky. Right. And don't get me wrong, I've had a couple of dark spells, right? We all have. Mm-hmm. And it's needed real resilience and stick ability to get through them various guises, but I reflected on this year actually. Yeah, this is my 25th January. Wow. New calendar year, target gets set to zero again January the first. And because of the opportunity that's been presented to me now with this new role, honestly I'd leapt into 2025 with real excitement. I'm working with a new team who have, have taken to me great. They love what I'm doing. I love what they're doing. They, we've got a big task ahead of us. Mm-hmm. But not afraid of hard work and a bit graft and yeah. I'm loving what I do. I am loving what I do, but I'm also getting closer to being able to see the end line. Right. Yeah. And being able, you, my, my son is having they let us know they're having twins in the summer, so I'm gonna be grandparent for the first time, which I'm really excited about into perspective, you know? Yeah. I'm, I don't intend flying around the world every other week for the next 10 years. I don't wanna do that, so. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I've got a date in mind and I'll throw everything I've got at it until I get there. But when I get there, I'm done.

Megan:

I love that. I love that approach of just I. Kind of know where you're going, but give it your all, you know where you are today, but have a plan for the future.

Howard:

I've always been beg, and you'll know this'cause you've seen me in action, but I can't do my job. Halfheartedly. No, I'm all in. And that served me well. So why would it change you? It can be a little bit challenging to some of my team sometimes, but generally it works out. I've evolved obviously in time and I've learned a lot from loads of great leaders that I've worked with, you included. And, but still it's all or nothing with me. Yeah. If I tried to do this job part-time, that wouldn't work. Yeah. You've gotta be all in. So all in until the day. And then all out. All out. That's it. Yeah.

Megan:

I think that's a good philosophy and I think again, yeah, as you've said, we've worked together before and I think that works because you also care, so it, you might be asking people to do difficult things and challenge themselves as well, but. My experience with working with you is you're always supporting and you care about the person and the outcome, so not just the outcome.

Howard:

Yeah, I think that's probably where I'm from. That's my upbringing. That's my life. Right? My family's the same. We are a people business ultimately, you know? Mm-hmm. The rise of technology is great and it's exciting, but without great people, I'm not sure the technology will do all the thing it needs to do. Yeah. And I've been really lucky to work with great people and I still do today. And if I can get. More great people doing more great things, then I think that's my job. And you, I like to think that I've created a bit of a legacy with some people, and I mm-hmm. I see some people who, who've worked for me in the past, who are flying now in their alternative careers who do their cap to the time spent with me. And, I was, sometimes I was having some of these guys up at three 30 in the morning driving to Peterborough for eight hour cold call instance, and driving home again, I was pushing'em hard. Right. I'd probably done some things there a little differently now with more maturity on my sleeve. But yeah, ultimately I've always tried to. Take people outta their comfort zone a little bit.'cause you learn more there. And I you remember Woo, lead back in 2011, the great Jenny Maddox one of my great mentors in life, and we had to go to Malibu in California for this outward thing that, yeah, it sounds horrendous, I know. But it was amazing learning experience about, giving crisp, clean feedback. Feedback is a gift. It was about not holding back, but testing yourself. And the team I was part of had just we just absolutely crushed a challenge. Building a raft or something sailing across the water. And we were flying, we were really high. And then the next task, it was a it was a nighttime task going into the woods and collecting these these illuminous things. And it was my turn to be the team leader. So I decided to, rather than just doing the same again. I basically assigned everybody a role for this task that was not aligned to their comfort zone. Right. So we had, our director of communications was Eric from Hong Kong, who didn't speak the great English. Yeah. He was our director of communications. We had Ys, Ys he was our guy. He could basically build anything out of anything. Mm-hmm. I think I had him as the, he was the Chief Coke carrier. Right. So I asked everybody to do something different and do you know what we did? We completely messed the task up. We ruined it. We were hopeless. And the feedback that night was brutal. And they all hammered me because why would we not try and win and do this? Yeah. Yeah. And I shed a tear that night and I've told people this. I've, I shed a tear that night'cause I got hammered. But then the next morning, one by one, everybody in the team came to me and went, we did the right thing. Because we tried something new and we learned from it, and that stuck with me as well. So be brave, right? Try and get outta your comfort zone and yeah. don't stay in your lane all the time.

Megan:

It's an amazing lesson. And I, it's easier doing it in Malibu. Yeah. I mean, that doesn't hurt but sales, and I think sales leaders as well have, sometimes the stereotype isn't always about people. Having seen an action the difference it makes when you care and you're pushing people out of their comfort zone, but supporting them well, you're doing that. Like I can see the difference and what that makes for people and ultimately results, which is, from a, the business standpoint also cares about that. Of course.

Howard:

Well, that, that's it at the end of the day. But, as a sales leader, and I share this now with sales managers who are taking their first step into sales leadership, our role as a sales leader is to enable the team to be the best version of themselves that they can be, right? Mm-hmm. It's then for us to decide, is that good enough for what we need, right? Yeah. And if it is brilliant, we enable it further and we empower them to succeed and go from strength to strength. If that level of capability though. As much as it's the best that they can be, doesn't meet the grade for what we need, then it makes sense for all parties to, go in a separate direction. Yeah. Because no point anybody being unhappy in work, you've got to be engaged and you've got to be switched on. And if you can't be then it's okay. Just don't stay. Go and do something that makes you happy. You spend so much of your day in work you've gotta enjoy it and yeah. You've gotta, you've gotta wanna be stretched and you wanna push yourself. One thing I've always learned is there's nothing easy in sales. Right. The guys who get lucky, they get lucky because they work really hard to get lucky. Mm-hmm. The guys that just get lucky, they don't get lucky. It doesn't work. Yeah. Yeah. My dad always said to me, always said to me. Do your best and that's it. It's all I can ever do. Yeah.

Megan:

And it comes back to those fundamentals you learned back in the call center of not just the fundamentals of sales, of how to have a conversation with people and present ideas and things like that, but the fundamentals of what working hard means, of putting in the time and, making sure you're hitting. All your KPIs, not just Target, but what are the KPIs that will drive towards the target?

Howard:

Definitely. I didn't realize it at the time when I first went down this path, but sales is a privilege, right? I honestly believe this. It's the greatest profession that's out there, obviously, footballer, golfer, maybe there's a couple of outliers there. In the real world as we'll, say, sales for me is the best job there is. And you know why? Because you get to find out cool stuff about cool things from cool people all the time. Mm-hmm. And that's just really interesting. Right. And it might sometimes lead to a sale, it might sometimes not. Sometimes just finding out that you can't help a customer can be just as good as actually helping a customer and clinching a deal. Yeah. You have your, everything you do is in your own control and destiny. And generally, the harder your work, the more successful you be, and the more successful you are, the more you earn, mm-hmm. I've been very lucky in my career to have done well in this game, and hopefully that'll continue for a couple more years.

Megan:

Yeah. I love that perspective. I've not ever heard sales described in that way. And you're just obviously so passionate about it and love it that's amazing.

Howard:

Children should grow up wanting to be in sales. It was always joked about, yeah. Oh, what's going wrong in your life Then? It's true. But yeah. If my kids were growing up now and they're long gone, unfortunately, but if they were my grandkids, my, if my grandkids grow up wanting to be salespeople, then I would absolutely encourage it because what a life they could build for themselves. Mm-hmm. If they do it well. Mm-hmm.

Megan:

And it's a skillset. That whether your job is sales or not, everyone needs a bit of sales in life, like finding a job. There are sales in that. Sales is a fundamental skill for building a life. So whether you do it as your job, it is at least a skill that people need to find a way to cultivate. And as someone who is introverted and does find that difficult. It still makes a difference to spend time on that and get comfortable with at least a little bit of that.

Howard:

Sales is under a banner, but. It's just talking and listening. Yeah. That's all it is. Knowing when to strike, knowing when to pull away, knowing when to ask the question, making sure you're showing enough interest, and you sold me this podcast, so even as an introvert, you're a very effective salesperson. So it's just talking and it's just talking and listening. That's all it is.

Megan:

Yeah, it's a building relationships. That's it. Looking back at your journey are there. Common threads, and I think we've touched on some of them, but some common threads or things that, in hindsight you see, how the journey evolved and made sense, or whether it's like transferable skills or just things at the time. Sometimes they don't feel like they connect, but actually when you look back you see those connections.

Howard:

Yeah, I, I. I, it'd be impossible for me not to have learned and evolved over time. Mm-hmm. The 52-year-old age that sits here in front of you now is definitely different to the 49-year-old H, or the 45 or 30 5-year-old H. Probably as I was building that sales career and in those early stages of sales management. It did consume me and it was all about me. Mm-hmm. That worked to a certain extent, but that probably drove some behaviors that I wouldn't repeat now in today's world I think success comes in many forms and what I've learned now is I don't need to be the one scoring the goal, if you like. Yeah. To feel that success. I appreciate success of others now. Much, much more than I ever used to do. I'll defy you to meet any sales person that's not a tiny bit competitive. And that I've still got a little bit of that in me. Yeah. But it's a much different form of competitive nature and probably a lot more cohesive to the the working world that we are now in, in 2025. I've, I've learned loads, loads and loads but I've never lost sight of the fact of the importance of people and, yeah. Caring for them, and that caring can come in the form of a cuddle or a kick. Depending on the situation. I've given many a compassionate kick in my time with all the right intentions. Sometimes it might not have been received that way. That's life. But yeah, my intentions have always been in the right way. But yeah I if I was to look back and, challenge myself differently. I would say to myself, it's not all about you h right? There's a bigger picture here. Just be a component, part of the success. Mm-hmm. You don't have to be all the time, the one in the limelight.

Megan:

Yeah. I think that's pretty powerful reflection and good advice. I think it's hard when you're young to think that, yeah, definitely. Great advice. Is there, a that's a piece of advice, but is there any other advice you would love to go back in time and give yourself?

Howard:

I think it's probably you who's taught me this more than anything else around, the whole extrovert, introvert thing. It's not something I'd ever considered until you and I spoke about that three, four years ago. I see you as a, hugely accomplished leader, person professional. But you're completely the opposite to me. Yeah. And again, in my younger days, I'd have probably stayed away from you'cause you'd have probably you'd have scared me a little bit as I'm sure I would've scared you a little bit. Yeah.'cause we are so far opposite. Actually somebody did say that to me once as I was in my usual way walking around our Peterborough office mm-hmm. With some of our back office colleagues. And genuinely I was just being me. Hey, how are you getting on? How's your day? Is everything all right? Unbeknownst to me, these people who I was talking to were like. What's he doing? What does he want? What, and they were petrified of me and I didn't appreciate that at all. So yeah I would think appreciate all humans for all their idiosyncrasies and styles and mm-hmm. And yeah, there's good in everybody and just'cause they're different, doesn't make them doesn't make them challenging. Yeah it's, you play people's strengths for sure.

Megan:

That is really great advice, and I think everyone goes through that journey a little bit because you're right. I would've also found you a bit intimidating when I was younger. And it's funny'cause sometimes people have said, that I'm intimidating. And that feels strange to me'cause I'm like,

Howard:

you're so quiet.

Megan:

Yeah. And you forget that actually some people assume you are quiet because you don't wanna talk to people or you're. A bit stuck up or judgmental or what have you, and it's like, no, I'm just in my own head, but like I love to have a chat. So just understanding all those different perspectives is really helpful and then yeah, not judging a book by its cover almost and getting to know people

Howard:

I think that's, that is a, I think it's a life journey as well. That though, you know? Yeah I know there's LinkedIn learning courses and there's training courses and management development stuff that teaches all this stuff, but nothing teaches it, like life itself and Yeah. It's only through getting to know you better that I've. And I mean it our relationship is built on the differences that we are as human beings and that we've been able to embrace that in these last few years rather than in, be in fear of it. And that's helped, right? And yeah, life's the most important learning journey. Them all right?

Megan:

A hundred, a hundred percent. There are some things you can't learn except for by doing it, having conversations with people. And I'm honored to be part of that journey with you. That's,

Howard:

I for sure. For sure. Yeah. Thank you. A hundred percent. That's good. I always remember I think we were in Denver at one of the leadership meetings and we were just, as we were launching Edge and we had to do this breakout group. And you were this like, you were like the team leader I think of us at the time and, but you were like super structured and really well organized and I was thinking. This is not how I work. Let's just, we'll write something down. Let's get on with it. We'll go sell it. Right? You were like, no, let's document it step by step. And that was probably the start of my learning journey around, differences of of approach. But yeah, it's, that's a journey. It's gone back a few years now, mate, wow.

Megan:

Yeah. We've known each other a while now. Mm-hmm. You're looking towards retirement. What is the vision and hope for the future?

Howard:

Well, health and happiness is the first and foremost. Mm-hmm. Which is one of the reasons why I, I love my job, but I don't wanna die doing this job, that's for sure. Yeah. I wanna spend some time with my grandkids. I've already signed up for looking after them. A day, a week. Just one day a week. One week, because it's twins. That's gonna be a tough, a I can ride a day at the zoo or a day at the football or whatever with them. No problem. Yeah I'll probably carry on doing some work of some sort whether it be a bit of consultancy. Mm-hmm. I've always said I'll be quite happy driving a van, delivering bread or working in a golf shop. Not bothered along with most of my time is spent playing golf or watching football or spending time with my family. Yeah. I've probably got that order the wrong way around if. Maybe you can re-edit that for me in case my wife's listening. By the time all this professional career ends, I'll be very confident in the fact that I'll have left nothing else on the pitch. Mm-hmm. I and I'll be ready to to walk off with my head held eye. Very proud and very confident that. Everything I've set out to achieve and way more than that has been done so in abundance, and that seems like a decent platform to going forward my new golf handicap improvement process.

Megan:

I love that. And you're right, you're leaving a pretty amazing legacy and your journey has been full of accomplishments. Traditional, but also, the things that not everyone sees. Like you said, people you've seen go on in their career that worked for you in the past. And watching them succeed and grow. Yeah, you should definitely, when it is time to retire, when you get to that point yeah, be really proud of what you've accomplishment and the legacy you're leaving behind and I know anytime I'm having a conversation and talking about, what would I describe the best sales leader, I know it's always you be because it is that. You never lost sight of the target of the number, which is, the job, but quite important. Yeah. But also just, from what I've seen of as I said before, of supporting and caring for people, but also knowing how to pull in other people. One of the things I really learned from you is I don't have to know everything other people can help me. And you were never afraid to be like. Megan, can you jump in and help me with this thing? Or, to whoever that you knew had that that skill and that, that's definitely something I really learned from you.

Howard:

Ah, it's good. Appreciate that. Thank you. And yeah I'm living that now, right? With the new team that I've inherited. They know way more than me about this business that I'm now leading. So it's awesome to just learn from them and have them inspire me and teach me stuff that I didn't appreciate and didn't know. So yeah, I've really enjoyed that. The one final thing I would say about all of this is I did learn over time. You cannot please all of the people all the time. Yes. So I think my legacy's pretty strong. I know there's some people out there who probably don't think that, and for that mm-hmm. That's up to them. That's all good. Yeah. My, my head rests on my pillow very soundly at night. No problem at all. But yeah, with that appreciation of, do your best you can't please everyone all the time and yeah. Bringing the resources around you to get the best outcome job done, it's worked quite well for me. Yeah. Amazing. There you go.

Megan:

Thank you so much for coming on and sharing your journey and some really amazing lessons and insights as well, so I appreciate that.

Howard:

That was awesome. Thanks for having me.

Megan:

Yeah, it was great to have a chat.

Howard:

See you in London for a coffee soon.

Megan:

We should definitely do that soon.

I always love chatting with Howard. His positivity and passion are infectious. Some of the things I took away from our conversation were first of all the importance of giving it your all. Howard is all in on everything he chooses to do, including every role he has undertaken. Second, Howard has learned to see the strength in people's differences and the power of adjusting to other styles. And third, some things are just about timing. After being a sales manager. Early in his career, he said never again. But when years later, he had another opportunity to step into the manager role, he took it because he felt ready, which is a great lesson that just because something doesn't work out or isn't right at that time, doesn't mean it never will be. And to paraphrase one of the amazing lessons Howard shared, it doesn't all have to be about you. You can be happy for other success without diminishing your own. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.

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