Ilona Brannen: Foreign Office to Executive Coach

Season 2 Episode 9: Ilona is a Leadership Coach and Consultant who found her way to her career with stops in Japan and Italy and stints in the Foreign Office and teaching along the way.

Check out her website: https://ilonabrannen.com/

Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/theunexpectedcareer/
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Webpage: https://theunexpectedcareerpodcast.buzzsprout.com

Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident, I'm fascinated by how people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people, about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I am speaking with Ilona Brannen, business consultant and executive coach with the mission to enable a whole population of leaders worth working with.

Megan: 0:43

How are you? I'm good, thank you. How are you doing? I'm good. Thank you. Alright let's jump in. I always start at the beginning of when you were small, did you have an idea of what you thought you wanted to be when you grew up?

Ilona: 1:01

It's funny because I was at my parents' house a couple of weeks ago and I came across a notebook from when I was about 11. So this is first year of secondary school. And it's like when I grow up, I want to be a secretary. And I don't think it's that I wanted to be a secretary. It's that. That was one of the only jobs that I knew that existed. And my parents were both teachers, so I was like, I don't wanna do what they do. So I was like, what's the only other thing I know is a job that exists is a secretary. I think really a long time before that, there was definitely a flirtation with being a ballerina for a summer. Mm-hmm. Fire engine. I wanted to be a fire engine. Not the fire people, but the fire engine. But I tell you that the honest truth though is when I was five, I absolutely knew without a shadow of a doubt I was going to university. I knew I was going to university because I wanted to, I thought it sounded really interesting and I loved school, so I was like more school. That sounds great. And my parents had both been to university and they often say that if your parents have been to university, you are more likely to go. So I, it was never really a factor of, I wasn't going, it was more, which one will I go to?

Megan: 2:12

So how. Did you make that decision? Where did you go and and how did you make the decision of what to take in school?

Ilona: 2:20

Yeah, these are great questions'cause I was a bit random because in the UK it's very much the A level system is you are either for the old. Team arts or team science and maths, and I was quite a precocious child and I really thought that it was better to have a broader curriculum. I. As a platform. I was like, I think 16 is a bit young to be making me decide which avenue to go down. Yeah. So arts and sciences, much to the chagrin of my teachers who were like, you can't do that. And I was like, I'm doing it. So it meant that I had chemistry, maths, performing arts, theology, and history. And then I did photography in the evening of my own volition.'cause I wanted to do something creative and I really, I now, I'm in my forties, early, early forties, I'm so grateful that I did that. I had the, I don't know, sort of commitment to what I believe to be true for myself. Yeah. Because now I've got that strong mathematical and scientific foundation, plus being able to communicate really thoroughly and effectively and have that humanities background. Mm-hmm. Incredibly valuable and still is. So when it got to decision time for university it got boiled down to which subject did I like the most. And the one I was the best at was chemistry. But the one I enjoyed the most was history. And it came down to a simple decision that I. With chemistry in the lab, I'd always end up burning myself or I would end up spilling acid on my hands or getting in some sort of mess. And I was like, if I go to university and choose chemistry and I have to do lab work, I'll end up like getting injured. So I can't really get injured if I just read history books, so I'll do history. So I went and did history and I chose Warwick University because it offered the opportunity to go to Italy and study the Renaissance in Venice. So they have a campus in Venice. And I was like, wow that's the one I want to go to. That sounds amazing. Because in. A lot of universities that let you do a year abroad, you have to have studied the language. But with that course at Warwick, they would teach you Italian and you'd learn Italian and then you'd go over to Italy and live in Venice. So that's what I did.

Megan: 4:42

That's amazing. I love there's multiple things that went into that choice. One was just like safety, don't wanna get injured in chemistry. But also just that wider experiences of things you would get to explore by choosing Warwick, for example, and being able to then go to Italy and learn the language in preparation for that, which was maybe, as you said, it wasn't offered by all universities in that kind of way. I love that. When you finished school, what was your first job outta school?

Ilona: 5:16

Well, it was actually inspired by being in Italy, so I had, I obviously, you know, was there just living abroad for the first time, and that's a big deal when you are young because even going from London to Warwick, I mean, if anyone has a bit of a Google Warwick is in the center of the country, kind of near Birmingham. So to me it was like, oh my God, I'm so far away from my parents. But obviously you're not, but psychologically you are then going away and living in Venice. I was like, wow, this is so cool. I wanna do this some more. So my choice was to actually apply to the Japan Exchange and teaching program, the J.E.T. Program, to go and work and live in Japan. So teaching English there. And I remember vividly, my mom and dad had come to visit me in Italy and I was doing the application form and giving it to my mom. This was back before, you could submit things securely online. It was very much like. The early emails were eh, I'll send a message, but I'm not gonna send anything official. And because this was to the Japanese government, it was like, you must send this document in person and blah, blah, blah. So I gave my mom all the forms to then hand. She then handed it in to the Japanese Embassy in London on my behalf. So I was in Venice. Do my application to go to Japan and then I got into the JET program and went to Japan, straight off university. So graduated in June, flew off to Japan in JET in July, and started my new life out there.

Megan: 6:47

Yeah, so that's really far away from home, the other side of the world really. How long were you in Japan for? So I was in

Ilona: 6:55

Japan for two years and although, sometimes I'm like, oh my God, how old am I? But the time was 2006 to eight and this was genuinely before it was, like now I can speak to my aunties and uncles who are in Australia, on the smartphone and just phone up me. FaceTiming while I cook, but this was when, it wasn't that common for everyone to have the internet. I would send emails back in a kind of like blog update kind of post thing, and then I eventually did get a webcam, but my parents didn't have the internet in their house. I would go to the corner shop, get a calling card, scratch off the number on the back with the 77 digit number, and sit there at the payphone every Sunday in the street corner, and call my mom and dad. But yeah, it was an remarkable experience. My, my only regret is that I wish I'd taken more notes or more reflection. Because it was such a unique experience. And it's so interesting now seeing people who are doing the program, but it's such a different experience because they can literally share it with everyone. Right. It felt very much like a little secret, well, a big secret, but being all the way on the other side of the world and experiencing that and having to work as well with Japanese colleagues and be in the minority by quite and have to learn the culture, learn a bit of the language and learn how to get by.

Megan: 8:22

Yeah, that's amazing experience at that age. And you're right, it would be totally different now with TikTok and people vlog their whole kind of experience and everything they do. But yeah, back then it wasn't, first of all. You know, that sort of concept didn't exist, but even, unless you were a natural journaler it wouldn't have, been top of the list and you're young and you're just enjoying it and living it.

Ilona: 8:48

Yeah, and I think that's one of the good things about. The time, it was very much like, I can't remember ever feeling like I needed to capture anything. Whereas sometimes I feel like you have to capture things to prove that they've happened, whereas Yeah. That a concern back in the day. And we did some amazing adventures. And the JET program is quite unique because you go over with all the British JETs on the same plane. And then. Meet all of the participants in Tokyo for like a three day conference. So that's people from America, Canada Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, and you are all there together. And so you build this network over those three days and then you basically go and visit each other because it's a great way to experience the country. And so you have an inbuilt network through that sort of thing.

Megan: 9:36

And then just that natural instant bond of being in this same situation together.

Ilona: 9:42

Yeah. And the JET program, when I did it, they were very, very good at educating us in the culture shock. So they really did teach us, like, by the way, this is just so you're aware, you are gonna feel like you're on a honeymoon with Japan. Mm-hmm. For the first couple of months and then around sort of like three to six months in, you're gonna have a dip. And that's normal. And it's because it's culture shock and they explained it to us and I think that was my first. Real physical and visceral experience of change and how change can be so, physical and emotional. And so it's, it is one of the things I help now with clients is change and transformation. And so the fact that I got. Taught this in a really meaningful way by going through that change and transformation in Japan helped me to understand actually people go through that journey a lot. That cultural change journey, whether it's in another country or whether you're changing some business or culture in, in the organization you're part of.

Megan: 10:46

Yeah. That's so true and amazing too. Like how, those early experiences in your life really do still contribute to what you're doing now. And I think that's common for most people of you learn things along the way and you take them forward. But we sometimes forget that. I think it's a really good example of how you can carry forward those experiences that on paper maybe seem like they have nothing to do with each other. so you mentioned now you help companies with change and transformation. So tell me about the journey from teaching English in Japan as a new grad to now helping companies implement change and transformation in their business.

Ilona: 11:31

Well, there's a few steps along that journey, which are quite important, but seem. Like they're not connected, but they kind of are.'cause they're part of my journey. But after Japan, I went back to Italy because I thought for a bit I was gonna be an art curator. I was at the Guggenheim Museum and had that wonderful experience working there, but realized that probably wasn't the right path for me long term. Came back to London, was trying to work out what was what during the Global financial crisis. Fun times. Yes. And it was interesting because I think it was the first time. I'd ever experienced things not working out for me. Through, if you work hard, you'll get results. And so I was like, but I'm working really hard and I'm not getting any results because nobody really cared. But I'd had this experience in Japan. Nobody really cared. I'd been in Italy. All they cared about was, can you do this particular skill for this job? And there weren't many jobs anyway because of the global crisis. So after a lot of different applications, I got into the Foreign office, which I think is now called the Foreign and Commonwealth and Development Office. It's got longer names now, it's got Amalgamated. Really excited thought this is great. All my different experiences have come together in one felt swoop. But unfortunately for me it was the time of shrinking the office. So there were fewer opportunities. And it's very structured, the civil service. So, you know, you have to be at a certain level and you have to have been at that level for a good few years and all of these things, and my personality doesn't quite suit that kind of regime. And the turning point for me happened when it was the Japanese tsunami. Because I had obviously connections with Japan. I knew people at the embassy and I knew people who were still back in Japan, so I was able to provide a lot of good information for them for the working with the crisis. But they wouldn't listen to me because I wasn't the right level. So frustrating. Yeah. So I had to give the information to a colleague who was the right level, who they did listen to, but it was like a series of events, especially around that time that made me realize even though I had the exactly the right information at exactly the right time, it was the structure and the organization was bigger than I was. And I wasn't gonna fight the system. So I pivoted and I looked for another opportunity. And this time I joined Teach First, which if any of your listeners are in America, is very similar to Teach for America, where you go into challenging schools. And I. The reason I chose that because I had the teaching experience from Japan, I thought it'd be a good opportunity to, get some credentials in the UK and on, and then also teach versus has a lot of good links to the city and different businesses. So I thought, okay, let's try this. So I worked in several schools in London. Had a really fantastic journey. I think that's where I developed my own leadership. I had in Japan too, but this is where it really. It really became apparent to me that teaching is leadership. And leadership is teaching. People don't do what you say they do what you do. Um, there's nothing like a mirror of 30 14 year olds to show you where you've not, you need to Yeah. Human being. You're like, okay, all right, fine. So on me. And I loved it. I loved it. But then I. It got to a point where I was like, actually, this job is incredibly difficult and I think I want to do some other things to do with business. And I also wanted to do more for myself.'cause teaching is quite a giving profession. In a wonderful way. But I really would, so my classroom, I could see the shard. From my classroom window. And after a while I just thought to myself, I want to be at the top of the shard one day talking about business and stuff. So that's what I'm gonna go and do. And so TEACH First has fantastic links to different businesses, applied to a few jobs, had a choice between. PWC, big multinational, blah, blah blah, or an ed tech scale up. And I actually went for p wc because I thought there'd be more opportunities for growth and development. And so I went into consulting and then that's how kind of this change in transformation journey and leadership development and all things people and business. Like got professionalized. There was always a passion for it along the way, but this is where it got professionalized. And actually one of my first projects at PWC was all about HSBC and all about culture change and transformation post global financial crisis. So it was amazing.'cause then I was like, oh, I remember this. I remember what happened here. So it was like being able to look inside the magazine and be like, oh my God. The gossip.

Megan: 16:23

Amazing. And there's some interesting full circle moments there when you were 11 you were like, oh, I don't wanna be a teacher like my parents. But then you did. End up teaching for a while. They

Ilona: 16:37

were like, what are you doing? And I was like, and I agree with them. I agree with them. It's funny when I look back on my career without a shadow of a doubt, teaching's probably the thing I'm the most proud of. And it was the most rewarding and fulfilling. Because if you didn't show up, it mattered to a lot of people. Whereas with an office job, generally if you don't turn up, people will be like, fine, see you tomorrow, kind of thing. But yeah, the actual profession itself is really tough. It's a really tough one. The kids are cool. But then I think a lot of things are changing there's a lot of pressure and not a lot of support for teachers. So if any of your listeners have a friend who's a teacher or it's someone in the network who's a teacher, please just give them a hug. They do a really, really hard job and they need a lot more support and payment. So

Megan: 17:28

It is a really hard profession, and as you said, it is all about. Giving. And so it's hard to have time for yourself, and I think a lot of teachers end up with burnout, which is unfortunate. And there you touched on it. There's so much pressure. I think there's so much pressure on kids and there's so much pressure on teachers as a result of, getting the right grades, taking the right courses, going to university, and taking the right thing, getting the right job. And that really starts right from from school and it's, actually one of the reasons I am passionate and created the podcast is like everyone's journey is so unique and very few journeys are in a straight line. It's not to say that doesn't happen, but there are often multiple ways to a result and jobs and opportunities and things you wouldn't even know that existed when you were in school. You just take some of the pressure off.

Ilona: 18:22

You'll love this. When I was a teacher I was very interested in mindset. So my students were in Elephant and castle and, from a challenging background or socioeconomic background, et cetera. But I was really intrigued by the idea that, mindset can help you. Push yourself, go to a different level, blah, blah, blah. So I reached out to Wimbledon School for Girls, which is one of the top private school schools in the country now. I worked in an all girls school, so that's why I I was reaching out to them and I chatted to them and understood a bit about a project that they'd been working on called Failure Week. So it was to teach the girls that their school about failure. And I was like, this is really interesting. And I was like, but would it really work in my school?'cause it's not really, I need to teach them failure. I think I need to teach'em something else. It's not about, oh, things don't work out. Sometimes I think it's more trying something new. I think it's more. A risk because you are contained sometimes in the state school. I think it's more like you should, you should be grateful to be here. You should just, try and attain what you can attain. It's not about, coping with failure. It's more about push yourself outside your boundaries. So I developed a curriculum, so a whole week of activities all dedicated to taking risks. So the students were encouraged to set up their own clubs. So the chess club, Beyonce dance club poetry club, and then. It was maybe like a sports team or something, but they had to do it themselves, find a teacher, get the, get their support, and then also try to do new things in the classroom. So if they didn't put their hand up, try to put their hand up. If they chat a lot, maybe try not chatting a lot, try something different. And I also had some students. Who, really showcased taking a risk by winning a national app building competition. Wow. Another student, she had learning difficulties as she said herself. But she was in a final for a gospel choir competition. So she came in with her gospel choir and sang for the school. And, we were all crying'cause it was such a beautiful moment. And another student put herself forward to be the youth representative for Parliament, for Southwark. Wow. And she said, I on it, if you hadn't told me to take a risk, and I won. And they now do that at the school every single year. And it helped me to understand a lot about the mindset that you might have. Might differ according to the, culture that you have in a particular organization. So is it that you need to overcome, is it that it's taking risks? Is it actually overcoming failure? What? Whatever it is. And that helped me to also understand the impact that all these soft skills. Although they're wrongly determined, I think can have in really changing people's results. I just thought it was a phenomenal experiment, which I loved and the students loved, and obviously now it still goes on in the school. Yeah. And I just thought that's something that's worth keeping on.

Megan: 21:24

I love what you said about. You learn from what they were doing at the Wimbledon School, but recognized actually teaching mindset in this environment is different because the mindset, obstacles you have to overcome are very much based on your circumstances and the actual problems in front of you. So you know the girls at the Wimbledon School. Maybe didn't have a lot of obstacles, so they had to learn to take risks, but take it from a different perspective of get comfortable with failure and things not working out all the time. Whereas your students dealt with lots of obstacles as part of regular life and probably saw their parents overcome a lot of obstacles or manage a lot of obstacles. So, taking it from that other perspective, I think that's really amazing.'cause I think I've, done some reading on things like growth mindset and things like that, but that's a context I haven't seen before and I think it's a really important one. And I was

Ilona: 22:27

inspired by a growth mindset by Carol Direct. I think it's something they make all teachers read to be fair. So I read it and just thought, hang on there. There is something in this. And especially'cause I taught maths and I just found that the students were ripping out pages of their maths book and I was like, what are you doing? They were like, miss it needs to be perfect. And I was like. It doesn't, but this is obviously something that happens to teenage girls especially, right? Where we all freak out that it's gotta be perfect and it's no, we've got to actually get more comfortable with it not being perfect.

Megan: 23:00

A hundred percent. And so tell me a little bit about what you're doing now. Well

Ilona: 23:06

now my mission is to enable there to be a whole population of leaders that are worth working with. So for me, I've had great leaders and rubbish ones. I'm sure everyone who's listening has had both of those spectrum, but

Megan: 23:23

mm-hmm

Ilona: 23:23

It really makes me upset because if you have a rubbish leader, it has as much impact on you. As like a terrible partner and it can affect your mental health, your health, your wealth, loads of different things. And so I want people to have the skills needed to be a decent leader at the bare minimum. But also if we can have more good and great leaders, then we're gonna have a better, happier workforce and just a better society in general.

Megan: 23:52

I love that and I love the way you talk about it too, and you're obviously clearly passionate. But yeah, just making everyone at the bare minimum, a adequate leader would be a great start. And so few people get training to be the basics of being a manager, let alone being a leader. I love that. When you look back on your journey, from university or teaching in Japan to now, and you touched on some of these, but are there kind of common threads or things that you, when you look back, you see how even though some of these things might not connect on paper, they actually do connect throughout your journey.

Ilona: 24:39

Yeah, I loved this question when you sent it to me'cause I think it's a great one for anyone to have a little bit of a reflect on for what is it that kind of guides my thread together. Because what you'll uncover is actually probably some really core values that mean a lot to you in your wellbeing. So I'd say one of them is learning. Right. So whatever situation I'm in, I'm always learning. So be that as a teacher and doing the whole like education thing, but even in Japan I was learning, from literally what is butter in the supermarket?'cause I dunno, it's all in Japanese, right? So, um, to what am I, if I'm not. Ilona in London with my family, who am I? You know, like massive Yeah. Existential things. And then trying all these different things in my twenties and early thirties to find a career that actually fit me. Right. So often I think people like, so I do coaching as well, right? So that's part of the thing I do for leadership development. And often I find around the mid thirties with some of my clients, there's this kind of. Moment of like, oh, have I been doing the wrong thing all this time? Because they maybe did a particular career that they felt that they should, and then they start to realize it's not quite vibing anymore. I. And I think if you can get to the core of like your values, that will help. So I've never felt like I've had an existential crisis with work.'cause I've always been following kind of my values, even though I didn't know that's what it was. I was just like, oh, well this sounds nice, but I was always quite intuitive and in touch with myself. So I'd say learning curiosity, I would also say was one adventure. Although my adventures are less global now but my adventures are much more into kind of helping people and leaving a legacy. Travel can happen as well with that, but I find that I can do so much in a room nowadays that I could, do in the same sort of vein with global travel. And especially with the internet, right? Yeah. So I can impact so many people around the world without having to go there. And I think it's like a self-discovery with me. So I was always quite philosophical, even as a kid. I remember saying to my mom, mom, I was about seven, and I do remember this. My life is a bit like a circle. Sometimes you're at the top of the circle and sometimes you're at the bottom of the circle, but you keep just going round and experiencing different things. So for me. When I do the work that I do, I'm also trying to understand more about who I am and here and what I can do and how I can help.

Megan: 27:19

Amazing. The circle thing. That's first of all one I'm gonna write down because it's amazing. It's so insightful for a 7-year-old.

Ilona: 27:28

I know. But if you've ever spoken to some seven year olds, they are freaky like that. Yeah.

Megan: 27:32

They can come up with. Yeah. The most amazing things.

Ilona: 27:37

Yeah. And then they'll just go and eat loads of ice cream, which is probably what I did. Yeah,

Megan: 27:42

it's, they have no filter, so just if they think it, they will tell you. Whereas I think as you get older, you start to be like, oh, that sounds silly, or so you, yeah. Keep those things to yourself. I love that.

Ilona: 27:53

What do you reckon has been some of your red threads?

Megan: 27:57

that's a super good question. And I haven't done as much reflections in my own journey, which I really, sometimes I, think of pieces of it. I think for me is a lot of it is the people which is something I only see when I look back because as an introvert, I think when I was younger and I was nervous or shy around people I didn't recognize that'cause I was maybe a bit scared. But that's where I have always gotten joy within my career. And then the other thing I would say, and this is right from being a small child even. Though I was introverted and nervous, if something was wrong, it was really hard for me to not speak up even in small ways. Like the very first meeting my boss took me to like first business trip, first meeting of people I hadn't met, outside our little office and she was presenting and, had said something incorrect about what the process was. And I was like, um, from the back, and then just, yeah, being a problem solver. So those are, I think, when I look back but it's something I'm still working on reflecting on and like pulling out.'cause to your point, I think they are, it is really rooted in values and you have to spend the time on the reflection. Which I have done because I was looking for a role, but. You're also in a bit of a panic, not panic necessarily, but like how do you package it so that it's for someone else so that you can get that next role. And now that I am working, it's okay, now that the pressure is off, I need to do it again. I think it's, you should in my view, probably do it, once a year at least, have that reflection. But now that the pressure part is off, I'm like, this is probably a good time to be. Taking that time and thinking about it again, and with a new view and with new learnings from doing this podcast, like hearing other people's stories and journeys and careers has been so amazing. And so there's things that I can take from that into my own reflection and look back of my own journey.

Ilona: 30:05

Yeah, yeah. I hear you. Because with my podcast, I was doing a lot of leadership development interviews with people and experts. Just helps my knowledge and understanding and yeah, it's a great way to learn. I think a podcast, if there's something you really wanna know just do a podcast. I think it's amazing. Yeah, because you can, different insights.

Megan: 30:21

Yeah. That's at the end of the day, if it helps one other person and I'm getting a lot out of it, that's good enough for me. Again, when you look back at your journey, like if you could go back in time, is there a piece of advice that you would give your younger self?

Ilona: 30:39

I would definitely tell my younger self and in their twenties to put money in Apple. Because it's like I'm starting to learn a little bit more about investing in stocks and stuff. Now I'm a bit older and it's like, oh man, if I'd just done it when I was 20, I can't right now. But the problem when you're 20, or at least in my case, was I didn't have much cash to invest. So I think I would've maybe sat myself down and said, look, have a bit of a finance plan. I know you're gonna roll your eyes at me and be like, what? But it's gonna pay off in the end. So have a think about it and invest in Apple. And I would also probably say the same sort of thing with health, like just get into healthy habits. I never would really su well, I wasn't the best I used to smoke, but I would definitely say just make sure that you've always got a bit of a healthy hobby, even if it's just walking or swimming or a bit of yoga, whatever it is. Just make sure you've always got a healthy hobby because when I was really busy and stressed. It was often the thing that I shoved to the side and I now know how much that helps me. So it would've helped me a lot in those times. I think I would've said to myself, you will learn a lot over the next 20 years, and it's not all gonna be fun, but I promise you the things that aren't fun will probably be your biggest lessons. So it will suck at the time, but I promise you'll be grateful for them in the end. And I know you roll your eyes at me again, but because I was quite like, uh, when I was younger. So that's hilarious. But yeah, I think that's it. And I'm very proud, I have to say with the fact I did always follow and I still do the beat of my own drum. Because no one can really tell you what the right thing to do is. Nobody's in your life. With your eyes, with your body, with your knowledge, with your experience. And so whenever you are going to someone for advice, they're giving you their perspective from their life experience. And that's why sometimes it might be useful because it might help you and sometimes it might not be useful because it's not relevant to you. So if I could encourage any one of your listeners, it would be to take that time to connect with one's inner world. To know what the truth of your real desire is, you can absolutely crowdsource for info or you know, tips, but it's you who is the driver of your reality. So please do get in touch with that inner core of you.'cause it will, whether you like it or not, it's gonna come and bite you. I've seen so many times, often what I'll find with my clients who are having a bit of a. Career, transitional moment is they'll be getting ill, so their body will be going, Nope, don't like this. Don't wanna do it anymore. And it's coming up as physical symptoms or things start to break in their life. So maybe a relationship breaks or they actually do their job. Usually these indicators are some something's telling you that you're gonna have to change. And if you don't actively. Try to change according to what really you want in your heart's desire, life will show it up. And that has consistently been the case I've seen with clients and in my own life.

Megan: 34:01

Amazing. And there's a theme there of invest in yourself and listen to yourself. And I think you're right about advice, like the crowdsourcing advice is good, although you can get into analysis paralysis if you talk to too many people. But then you have to decide. It has to match with you. And sometimes you're not gonna know, and that's where you experiment a little bit. So you try things and see, and then you still have to keep listening to yourself and checking with yourself of, oh, I tried this thing and it didn't work. Or I liked this piece of it, but I didn't like the whole thing. How can I do something more in that area without, doing exactly what I'm doing today or what have you. And I think your journey's interesting because like you're saying that as advice, but your journey also is an example of living those values too, of, even when you were in school, your teachers were like, you have to choose science or arts for your A levels. And you're like, Nope, I'm doing both. And the foreign office. Wasn't a fit ultimately. And you moved on and and so throughout, I can see how you lived that as well. So you're sharing it as advice, but also are an example of it as well.

Ilona: 35:16

Yeah, no thank you for that because I think that's what makes me a really great coach is I really do live by what I'm saying to people as a coaching practice and facilitate someone's thinking. I wouldn't ask anybody to do what I'm not willing to do myself. And that inner exploration has helped me, so that's why I'm a big advocate for it, for anyone. Yes, you are right. It's your life. You have to decide. And I think the bit that I've seen people stumble on is not taking that first step. And it's a bit like, you know, Indiana Jones and the last crusade where he is gotta go and do the there's no bridge and he's gotta have faith. It really is like that. You've just gotta take that first step and then the bridge will appear. Inertia, or analysis paralysis can really keep you stuck. And I think one of the narratives that really keeps people stuck is, I don't wanna make the wrong choice. And it's there is no such thing as wrong, really. But I tell you what is probably more wrong is staying in the same place for 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11 years. So just do one step, just one thing that gets you there.'cause then you'll learn a lot along the way. Yeah. And I

Megan: 36:24

think. There's a couple of thoughts that come to mind. First of all, not making a choice is still a choice. I can't remember who said that quote, but that's true. A hundred percent true. You're still making a choice. Although you're procrastinating on it. It's still ultimately a choice. And that sort of crowdsourcing advice or analysis paralysis, or even the reflection part, that can be its own procrastination if you don't take a step. It's like people who start a new sport and they're like, I'm buying all the equipment, but they never actually start the sport.'cause it's I feel like I've done something. Because I bought all the equipment and I, downloaded the app and whatever it might be. But they never actually played the sport, but they always felt like they had accomplished something. But really they're in the same place. And it's the same, I think with career decisions of oh, if I'm talking to a lot of people or I'm reading a lot of books about things I'm doing something for my career. But to your point, you have to take the step and have faith. And the other thing you said I think is so important is there isn't exactly a wrong choice'cause you don't know the outcome. And I saw something on Instagram and I wish I could remember who. Said it, I think it was a professor. She was like, there's no point really having regrets because you can be like, oh, I should have gone to that university instead, the of the one I've gone to. But how do you know it was better? You don't know. It could have been worse. Every decision is basically a 50 50 choice. So. Stop worrying so much about it, just make a decision and take the step. And then that's ultimately where you learn things, and then you can make a new decision of oh, this isn't for me. That's more information. And so then you can take the next step in a different direction or forward or backwards if you want to. Yeah, so there is a lot unpack, in, what you just said there. The

Ilona: 38:32

one thing I would say about the decision making process is the more in tune you are with yourself, the easier it is to make a decision. So the more I've connected with my inner world, the harder it is for me to lie to myself. Which is frustrating in other ways. I, really, there'll be like a week, I'm allowed a week and then by the end of the week I can hear my inner world going, oh no, this is not the thing. You're gonna have to sort it out'cause it's not right. So there's that connection means that I can't really lie to myself, but it does mean that at least the decisions I know that I make, I feel really good about because I'm like, that's honest, because I'm not lying to myself.

Megan: 39:11

Yeah, to be able to cultivate that is, in a way, its own journey that you've gone through to be that in tune with yourself, I think. And I think it's really important but not easy. So for me, it's not something I've fully cultivated yet myself, but it's something I'm working on.'cause then it stops you from being caught up in whether it's procrastinating our decision, but also caught up in like society's idea of oh, this opportunity's really good or glamorous or everyone wants to do this thing. I. That's not what's necessarily gonna make you happy. So you have to, listen to yourself those opportunities or what society says is important. They legitimately don't work for everyone.

Ilona: 39:57

Yeah. And also that intuness helps you when you shift. Your wants and desires when you were 20 are very different to your wants and desires in your thirties and forties. And recognizing that and honoring that and going, yeah, no. So if someone offered me a really, baller or job where I flew a lot, I'd be like, nah.'cause I wanna be around my family.'cause my mom and dad are a bit older now. I wanna be, hanging out with my friends and my partner. So I. That, massive global travel, blah, blah, blah. Role was fab when I was younger, but I'm not so into that now. Now I'd be much more content, more being physically with people and giving them my support and help with leadership development in person. So your values will shift over time according to the stage of life that you are in as well. And you should honor that too.

Megan: 40:48

Yeah. Yeah, I think that's a really good point. When you look towards the future, what's your vision or hope for the future?

Ilona: 40:58

Well, sometimes when I watch the news, I do have my jaw to the floor with the level of leadership that's currently on display. I will leave everyone to make up their minds over who I'm referencing there, but. Because I feel so passionate about what I do and the people that I work with, most people want to do good. Most people do. And so when I work with people, I feel a enormous sense of pride and satisfaction to be able to help them to become better leaders and to do great things for the companies that they work for and to achieve their dreams and ambitions. So more of that less crappy leaders who, cause let's be honest, some mental health issues for other people. And making better decisions just in general for humanity, that would be nice. And feeling like I'm doing what I'm supposed to do in that kind of Venn diagram of what I'm good at. Why help people with and what I get paid for.

Megan: 41:56

The Venn diagram, that's all we can ultimately hope for is finding more of the things that have that overlap.

Ilona: 42:05

And anytime you can use a Venn diagram you'll offer, I feel like that's quite winning.

Megan: 42:09

Yes, I also love a Venn diagram. Yep. Amazing. Thank you so much Ilona, for sharing your journey and honestly so many lessons. Some of my favorite part of the podcast is the editing process'cause you get to listen back so many times and there's always new things every time I listen back as I'm editing through and I. There's so many things I heard and got from this live So I can't wait to listen back and pull out even more. And, I know people listening will also get so many lessons out of it. I think your whole approach to your journey has been really inspiring and I think will inspire others to hopefully listen to themselves more and take those steps and do those experiments and prioritize their intuition in their own journey. So thank you.

Ilona: 43:05

Oh, you are welcome. Yes. And if anyone is listening who actually wants help in a career transition, that's one of my fortes so please do get in touch and reach out. I'm happy to share some resources I've got so that you can navigate your transitions with ease. Amazing. Great.

Megan: 43:21

Thank you again. Thank you. Megan was an absolute pleasure.

43:26

I love chatting with Ilona about her journey so far. She has done so many interesting and diverse things that somehow all thread together, and I got a few minutes of real time coaching. Three of my takeaways from our conversation are, first, the importance of committing to what is right for you as Ilona shares, no one can really tell you what the right thing is, and it can take a lot of personal reflection to get to your core values and then listen to them. And this is something Ilona demonstrated from an early age when she wouldn't be boxed into deciding between arts and science at a levels. Second, all your experiences along the way are part of that process of learning about yourself, and you pick up lessons in unexpected places that have real tangible value along the journey, like Ilona's experience in Japan, where she learned about the physical and emotional realities of change and how that has informed her consulting and coaching work. And third, the importance of mindset. Not only the realization that sometimes the hardest things lead to the biggest lessons, that you will be grateful for later, but also how important it is to take into account context in our approach for ourselves, but also how we support others. Ilona also shares some great advice about investing in your future early, not just financially, but your health too. Thank you for listening to the unexpected career podcast, please follow, share and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The unexpected career podcast is produced, edited and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.