Shemina Jiwani: It's not a straight line to CEO

S4E4: Shemina Jiwani shares her career journey and how it hasn't been a straight line to CEO. There were pivots to new industries and steps backwards on the way to stepping into the CEO role at Ascendant.

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I am speaking with Shemina Jiwani, CEO of Ascendant, and my very first manager in the payments industry.

Megan 0:37

Thank you for doing this. I'm really excited.

Shemina 0:41

I'm a little nervous, I'm not gonna lie, but I feel like we'll just chat and it'll be fine.

Megan 0:47

Yeah, that's generally how it goes. All right, so let's get into it. I always start with the very beginning of when you were a small child, like what did you want to be when you grew up?

Shemina 1:02

So I think the first thing I wanted to be was a teacher that I can remember. And then I wanted to be an advertising executive because I loved the Coca-Cola commercials. And so I wanted the polar bear commercials that were on air, and I thought that they were so neat, and then they had all the merchandise, and I thought it was so amazing that they pulled all of this together. And so honestly, that's what kind of drove me to doing marketing in university. I always knew I wanted to do business. There was no doubt in my mind that I was doing doctor or science or anything like that. Like I, I don't even think I took physics in high school because I had no desire to do anything in science. It was always gonna be something in like. Advertising marketing somewhere around there.

Megan 1:46

That's amazing. So it's also really cool because it clearly fueled your decision of what to take in university. That doesn't always happen where people are like, oh, I've seen this thing and I'm gonna see what that means and that's what I'm gonna take in school.

Shemina 2:02

Yeah. And it actually even made me go, okay, I wanna go to McGill, because they had immediate entry into commerce, into business and all the other schools, most of the other schools Anyways, you had to take a couple years and to, and then get into it. And I was like, no.'cause if I don't get in after a couple years, I'm gonna be devastated. I'm just gonna waste my life. So I literally was like, okay, I'm going here because I get in right away.

Megan 2:24

I was always curious about that decision to go to McGill.'cause obviously it's on the other side of the country from where you grew up.

Shemina 2:30

I dunno. I always wanted to go. I had family that had gone there and I had a couple friends that, I visited at times and I just loved the idea of being in Montreal and in the center of downtown and not having to fully speak French to be functional there, but. I think beyond that it was just like, I know I'm going away from home and so why not go somewhere that I actually really would want to be? And again, the program kind of drove a lot of that decision too.

Megan 2:57

Yeah. That's amazing.'cause university is such a great opportunity beyond the academic side, but to figure out who we are and get out of the shadow of other people or expectations or whatever it might be, and learn how to be a grownup.

Shemina 3:14

Yeah, doing laundry and figuring out what to eat is, I think that was the hardest part. And you know, studying without having a deadline, I think that was like a real big wake up call for me in my first semester as most kids. Like, oh God, I have to do this all year and I can't just cram at the last minute. So it was good life lesson more than school and like functional.

Megan 3:37

A hundred percent. That's how I think of university as well. So you took marketing at McGill. What was first job after school? How did you choose it? How did you make that decision?

Shemina 3:50

First of all, I come from an Indian family, which if you know anything about that means marketing is too soft. So I also did a double major in marketing and finance, so I'd have some hard and some soft. But my heart was in marketing, so I applied for jobs like Proctor and Gamble and Kraft. And then on the flip side, I also interviewed with Goldman Sachs in investment banking. And honestly, that world just terrified me because I didn't love it enough to do the hours that

Megan 4:20

mm-hmm.

Shemina 4:21

Required of it. And with Proctor and Gamble, I think there was like a couple of spots for the entire country. And so I went to the final round and I didn't get it and I was devastated and literally was like, I don't know what I'm gonna do with my life. My brother-in-law was working at a company called Thomas Cook Financial, which at that point everybody only knew Thomas Cook for traveler checks and the travel piece, but they had a financial side. And so he's like, well, we're looking for people. Why don't you just come and hang out and just, you know, shadow us for a day and see if it's something you'd wanna do. And so I went there and it was a Friday afternoon and they had, it was called California Friday or something like that. And people had Coronas on their desk and they were throwing a football around and everybody genuinely liked each other, and it was like mm-hmm. This very fun place almost like an extension of university. And so I was like, you know what, I'm just gonna try it. And I'll do this while I look for other true consumer marketing opportunities. And so I started there in 2020, I believe, sorry, 2020 2000, 25 years ago. And I got into this international payments industry. And I'm still here 25, 26 years later.

Megan 5:34

That's amazing. What a day to shadow.

Shemina 5:37

Totally. You know what, it's interesting because it was like all of a sudden the job was important, but it was more like, I wanna be here. If I had to be somewhere for eight hours, and it's not my passion and consumer products that I thought I had, it's at least I'm gonna like these people and I'm gonna enjoy. And I didn't realize it at the time, but now I know how important that is and how important it is to like where you're going every day for work and actually enjoy the people you work with.

Megan 6:05

that's so true because to your point, you are at work eight hours a day, you spend more time at work than any other thing you do in your life, really. And ideally you get to enjoy it. And what an opportunity to shadow at all let alone that it was a Friday where people were relaxed and having fun, but just to even get to shadow and get a feel for what the place was like and what it would be like to work there. Because the technical side is something you can generally learn, like that's usually not, we think it's the biggest obstacle, but it's not the biggest obstacle. It's what is the environment like? What are the people I work with like what's the culture?

Shemina 6:47

Well, and I don't know if you found this, but even now when I'm hiring people, it's really it's about aptitude and it's about you know, the desire and the effort. And the technical stuff we can teach, right? Mm-hmm. I've hired people that have philosophy degrees. I've hired people that come from science. I don't really care what the background is. It's really like, Hey, do you have that earn to learn? Are you a good person? Are you gonna jump in when someone needs you? that stuff is so much more important in my mind now than. A university degree in some specific, section or faculty.

Megan 7:24

Yeah. A hundred, a hundred percent. And it's that, I think you used the word aptitude, but like a, willingness to learn and be part of the team and grow within the role.

Shemina 7:38

Yeah.

Megan 7:38

Makes such a huge difference. And when you're starting your career, you ideally are looking for places that have room for that growth as well and that you'll be able to thrive in. And that environment is different for different people, but finding that environment is game changing.

Shemina 7:56

Hundred percent. And it's not lost on me that I landed in a really good place that then did offer me all of these stepping stones to grow. And I also think, I realized early in my career that your job is your job, but there's so many other things that you can kind of get your nose into that will help you grow throughout your career. And maybe not even through your career, but just in life. There's different sort of scenarios that you could put yourself into like. Nobody really wants to do certain things. And if you get yourself wedged in that, you become the expert in that. And all of a sudden all of these other things sort of come from that. I think we've both done that, right? Like, there's lots of things in what we do that's complicated and I mean, I would say boring. And, it's not the limelight that sales could be or that, you know, driving that, but without what we do at times and without some of those projects. Those clients can't be onboarded and I think those sort of projects have helped us jump up in our career.

Megan 8:50

Yeah, for sure. It's a willingness to say yes

Shemina 8:54

or to say yes because a lot of the times, you're just kinda like, oh, I don't know if I can do this. And I think about back in my career, I know I've stopped myself from doing some of this, even today, I have stopped myself from doing things because imposter syndrome kind of kicks in, and I'm like, I don't know if I can do this.

Megan 9:10

Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. It's like even if you don't feel ready, say yes, like do it before you're ready

Shemina 9:18

because somebody else will inevitably say yes, and they may not be any more qualified than you. They just may have the confidence. Right. And I've seen that in my career.

Megan 9:27

Oh, a hundred percent. I've seen that many times. So tell me a little bit about what you're doing now and then that journey to get there.

Shemina 9:36

I started as just like an account manager at Thomas Cook, and then I moved into more of the financial institution, like key accounts. Then Thomas Cook got purchased by Travelex and life just changed and that whole culture that I loved sort of evaporated overnight. And so a bunch of people from Thomas Cook joined another company called Custom House. And so I joined as well. And we were in charge of the US market and we did really well in the US market. So then it kind of just grew and I got to do a global role, which involved me traveling to Australia and the UK and Italy. And it was a phenomenal role for me at that point in my life. It was this global exposure trying to say, Hey, we wanna replicate what we're doing here. Totally different markets, so we're gonna have to adjust and figure that all out. But it was probably one of the most eye-opening roles for me. And when you talk about like, who am I? I think I was maybe late twenties going to all these places and telling people, Hey, this is what we do and this is what I think you should do. It was kind of surreal in a way. But again, you just, kind of did it and we did, had so much fun through that whole process. And then we got ready to be acquired again by Western Union. And at that point, I think what I realized about myself is I'm a generalist. I love having my hands in seven different pockets of mm-hmm. Things. And I really enjoyed getting exposure to different things. I didn't like the specialty side of it. And with the acquisition coming, they were making each role sort of narrower in scope, and I was getting really bored. And so at that time my dad's a commercial contractor and he was building this resort in the Rocky Mountains. Most people will know where Banff is, but just outside of Banff and the developer had some troubles and so we kind of took over the development. So my dad said, Hey, you know, if you're bored, do you wanna come here and start working on managing the resort and selling out some of the condo units? And at that point I was like, I don't know what I'm thinking, but Sure. And I did it and so it involved me moving there and doing something completely outside of my comfort zone, but also realizing that like everything we're doing is transferrable. You can't go from polar opposite industries, from hospitality to international payments and like everything that I did, yes I had to learn some nuances and a new system and whatever, but all of those skills transferred super quickly and super easily and I think they were a big portion as to why I was able to do that and seamlessly move into that role. But I will say it was the hardest few years of my life. Hospitality is next level in terms of hours that you're putting in, dealing with some really, really difficult people and expectations. But it was, it was fun. It was something different. And I met my husband in Canmore, so I was super happy about that. He may not be as happy, but I'm. But yeah, essentially for me is, we moved to Canmore, got married, hadn't got pregnant, which was a hard road for me. And so when I got pregnant I realized I couldn't keep going at this sort of pace and I wanted to move back to Toronto. And so I reached out to my old boss, a couple of my old bosses, and I got a couple of decent job opportunities. I took the one where I am right now at Ascendant. And essentially I was just coming to fill in for an account manager that was going away on medical leave. So I did that, but I learned the system. I got back into how do we service a customer and what are we doing? And then he came back and they said, well, hey, why don't you manage this team? And I said, okay, cool. So I started managing this team. Then it was like, well, we have this problem child, do you wanna take this on? Okay. So I started managing the payment operations and then it was, you know, sales and then it just kept growing and we started doing really well on the sales side. And so I evolved into a COO role at Ascendant and the COO role was huge. It was beyond what your typical COO role is because it's all of that plus sales and marketing and relationship management. Then I also had development, like product development prioritization under me. So it was a big role and it was, it was great. It exposed me to so much and it was totally in line with my, I like my hands in a hundred different baskets and it was super fun. And then I think from there, last January I became CEO of the company. After we got some private equity ownership. So that's where I've been for the last year is C-O-C-E-O of the company. Again, super fun. A whole nother level of dimension of responsibility and accountability. But it's great because ultimately the buck stops with you. And so, you get to have some of that decision making that I didn't have in the past

Megan 14:18

first of all. That sounds like a wild journey because the step away from payments and going into essentially real estate, construction, hospitality, this whole other world and not just one piece of the world, multi pieces of that world feels like completely on paper. It feels a bit. Crazy, But as you said, the skills are transferable.

Shemina 14:47

And I would say even the stuff I learned just by having a corporation and the tax pieces and the lawyer and the contracts, all of that is transferred right back over to the ascendant side as well. So I don't think I would've been as prepared to be CEO or even COO if I didn't have that experience as well. So it's really interesting to me because I don't know, I feel like it was a blessing and also exposed me to how hard you really have to work hard in that space. And it kind of got me a little more regimented in my approach to things because you just couldn't do it all.

Megan 15:23

Mm-hmm. I love that, like the transferable back or the new skills you learn as well. And I think it's so interesting because so many of us, and I am guilty of this too, it can be really hard or scary to step out of the industry. It's like, this is all I know. Even changing companies can feel like that even if you're in the same industry. But that can be the necessary change that will ultimately get you to the next level, which is maybe a level you're not even seeing right now. But that's the random puzzle piece. And the other thing that I thought was super interesting of when you did decide to come back to payments, arguably you went into a role that was way below your capability and way more junior than what you had been doing before in either industry but it was ultimately the opening of a door that led you to now being CEO of that. That company.

Shemina 16:28

So I guess I don't wanna romanticize it too much. I was also three months pregnant knowing that, hey, in six months I'm gonna be taking a year off. And that's not easy for any employer. In my situation. I also felt like, Hey, I can do this and I also wanna see if I like it again and if I wanna do it. So for me, it was a win-win for ascendant. They had this sort of six month stint.

Megan 16:54

Mm-hmm.

Shemina 16:55

And I needed a six month stint and I also didn't know if I wanted to do this again for a career and so it all kind of worked out in that realm. But I think the other thing I'll say is. Sometimes when you take that leap and you go to a different industry, even if it doesn't work out or even if it's awful, it doesn't preclude you from coming back to the industry. So, I don't know. I always just view risks as like, Hey, if they don't work out it's not like the end of the world. You're not stuck somewhere. You can always come back. You can always do jobs and honestly most of the time when you're working somewhere, people will vouch for you, right? Mm-hmm. If you're doing all the things, those people will take you back and that's what I found, you know, is that I didn't feel as panicked because I did have people that I could go back to and say, Hey, looking to come back. And I did have people that were interested in finding roles for me.

Megan 17:50

That's very true. You can always go back, no decision very rarely there are some decisions in life, but most decisions in life, you are not locking yourself onto a one way set of train tracks. Like you can always go back, you can always pivot, take a different turn. You just keep making the next decision with what the information you have now. And I think the other thing you were saying about how you came back. Yes, there was some personal circumstance about it, but also you kind of did an experiment of like, yes, I can go back to this'cause this is where I came from, but I'm not a hundred percent sure I want to, and this is a way for me to reengage with the industry. See if it's something interesting. Do I like it? Do I wanna come back to it?'cause every industry. Company team, there's pros and cons to them. So it's a way to evaluate, wait, is this actually what I wanna do? And is it the right fit?

Shemina 18:51

And I would also say that my requirements changed as my career went on, right? In my twenties. Or even as a young kid, you know, would I be saying, oh my God, CEO, that's amazing, right? Like, cool, that's what we all wanna be. But as time went on in my career, like when I got pregnant, what I really valued was challenging my brain. But I also wanted some flexibility. I also wanted some trust from my employer to know, hey. I'm gonna get the job done. I can do it. You don't have to worry about that. The hour can be a little bit different, you know? Or I may have to run out for appointments or school stuff or whatever. And so that part also at that point in my career meant a lot to me. And so to have people that knew me and knew my work product was super important for me to come back into the industry because I wanted people that trusted who I was so that I could be afforded some of that flexibility that I needed to be a mom.

Megan 19:51

Yeah, I think that's a really good point. What's important and what we need to or want to prioritize or even what we want from our career evolves and changes as we go through different life stages and milestones, but also just as we learn things, I think too. So I think that's also a good point of. Each decision we make based on right now and the information we have, it again, doesn't have to be forever. You're going to evolve and something that might be really great right now isn't necessarily great forever and vice versa.

Shemina 20:28

I think we can get stuck really quickly. This is what I know, this is what I have, it's easy. But I also feel like there's so much out there and that risk can pay off and there's mm-hmm. Limited, you know, I think we think in that moment that it's the biggest deal in the world because it is our existence today. But at the end of the day, sometimes those risks are exactly what you need to get yourself to where you wanna go, and sometimes you don't really know at this point where that is. And that's why I say I don't know that everything I've done has deliberately led me to this role. I really don't. It has, I think, like I said, my younger self would be like, yes, this is where we wanted to be, but all the way through this journey, I can tell you that hasn't been the ultimate goal for me.

Megan 21:17

I like that you said deliberate. Somewhere because yeah, even if that's a vague idea of where we wanna go or something we're thinking about when we're young, we're not always deliberately making those choices. And even if you had a deliberate plan, it's not really how life works out. There is a lot of serendipity, but if you're getting, skills and open to opportunities and also honoring where you are actually, that's usually where the magic eventually comes from.

Shemina 21:49

I also think it's just being good people, like when you're a good person and you work around good people, I feel like that's a big part. And I know a lot of what you talk about with some of your guests is like, Hey, what did you wanna be in university? And that's the part that I kinda it. It doesn't really matter. The background, what I think is really more important, like I said, is the aptitude, but it's also being a good person and being reliable and jumping in when, when people are, needing something. Like I've been really lucky to have really good people around me and some of my work colleagues are some of my best friends in the world, and I feel from my perspective that you have to have those strong sort of relationships. Those will give you the confidence to figure out what that next move is, or, what is it that you wanna do? And, and I think we've talked about having a personal board of directors and it really helps, right? As you're trying to figure out what that next step is, is just thinking through and having someone that is not maybe in your company or a mentor or a sponsor. It's just having people that know you, that know your goals, that know your situation. That you trust to bounce these ideas off of you? Because I think from that perspective, when I think about the unexpected turns of my career, I probably wouldn't have been able to make them without those people there to help me talk through or walk through those decisions and also help me realize that they're not as big as I think they are, because I think we build this all up in our head a lot.

Megan 23:17

Yeah, so true. That opportunity to talk things through out loud with people, as you said, that know your situation beyond just work, like the bigger picture is so helpful. And getting that outside perspective from people who really know you that way can be so helpful. it's a key, especially for women. I think having that, group, whether it's a couple people or it's, you know, larger of women who are, facing similar challenges, whether it's different industries or same industry is game changing for sure.

Shemina 23:53

Yeah, and I do think, just to hone in on the women piece for a second, I think that's been some of the biggest challenge for me because, whether it's in my group of friends or in the company. Most of the executives are men. And for me it's been really challenging to navigate, being a wife, being a mother, being a CEO or, or ambitious woman. And so oftentimes I kind of need the kick in the butt to say it's okay, right? Like, it's okay that I might miss. I don't know, some dance recital because I'm doing this because also it's okay for me to miss, you know, that last dinner at a conference because I'm driving home to get to my daughter's Halloween, costume, so I feel like there's not a lot of that out there. And I think that's a piece that has been super helpful to me with other women that are juggling all of the things. And then I think, mm-hmm. Just even mentally, I think I've seen this across all of my friends that are women that are ambitious. It's we do need that extra sort of confidence boost that our other friends can give us or that our other colleagues can give us. Whereas I don't think my male colleagues need it. In fact, I think they're the ones, you know, rushing to the top of the list and we're kind of like, oh, do we have all of the things? And can I do this? Can I not do this? So I feel like. That has become a lot clearer to me as I've evolved through my career is that, I have to get over that piece oftentimes, like I can do some of the things. Balance is balance. It's not at all times. It is, throughout a long period of time, you can have balance. So I will make sure I go to something for the kids, but I'll also make sure I'm at this work event. And I try and balance that out. And ultimately, you're the hardest critic of yourself. Mm-hmm. And you have to just sort of get over the fact that other people are judging you and if they are Oh well, kind of thing. And that's harder said than that.

Megan 25:49

Yeah, for sure. And to your point, having people in your life who are in a similar situation can help just remind us of wait. Like it is Okay. And I can't remember, I'm gonna have to look it up now, but there's, I think it's, an author, she talks about juggling and some balls are rubber and some are glass. And the important thing is knowing which ones are glass. And sometimes that's a family thing. Sometimes it's a work thing. But some balls you'll, you have to let drop, but just drop the rubber ones and not the ones that are glass.

Shemina 26:23

Yeah, I'm lucky'cause one of the mentors I have right now, he is two time, three time CEO, just super smart. But you know, over this last couple years, his first rules are family and health and then work. And that's super important for me. and it's almost given me license to take a deep breath and slow down on the work side. Because the first two have to happen before the third one can happen. So I think that's it's just something that I can't believe I have to tell myself, but I do have to remind myself of those things.

Megan 26:57

For sure. So your career has been like, as you're saying before, on paper looks. Quite varied and unexpected in terms of you were definitely in a path in payments and then you stepped out and then you came back, but did this experiment of starting in a more junior role to test if you really wanted to be back and have then just taken on more and more and are now CEO, when you look back on that journey, are there common threads that you see that carry throughout?

Shemina 27:28

I would say one of the biggest things is communication. I've realized how important it is to be able to clearly communicate not only what you're doing, but if there's a set of deliverables and, and bringing people together. I think. Across all the different pieces. And why I kept going in that progression was I was able to communicate effectively to everybody as to what was going on. And then I think the biggest thing is people skills, right? I mean, it's. Not just people skills, but it's empathy for people. Mm-hmm. So, I always say today, do you think someone was trying to screw up? Do you think someone is actively trying to make a mistake or do something bad? And the answer's always no. So, for me, if you're gonna bring together a team, you have to understand what everybody's skills are what they can drive from the team. Then it's about communicating. These are the roles maybe on the team or whatever, but then being very empathetic and giving them the feedback in that moment. And I think that served me pretty well throughout my career. Even when I started at Thomas Cook, I remember those days where we were a team of three and one of the guys had a child at home. And I would volunteer to stay, I'll stay late'cause you've got the child. Or you know, I don't celebrate Easter, so I'll do this. You go. That would work back and forth. And I feel like those types of things are what actually instill that trust. And I don't think a good team works without that trust. And so I think that is easily probably, has gone through the entire stretch since I've started the workforce. I also think that I've always had fun doing what I'm doing. You know, the minute I stopped having fun is the minute I would actually look for something else. Mm-hmm. I think it's super important that, for me anyways, that I'm actually enjoying what I'm doing and that I'm stretching and what I'm doing.'cause as soon as that goes away, I don't have any desire to do it and then I'm quickly looking for the next thing.

Megan 29:27

And as you said, right from the beginning we spend eight hours of our day at work, so if we're not having fun and we're not being stretched, what is the point?

Shemina 29:37

What is the point? And I think, and this is where empathy comes in, is there are people that are okay with that. There are people that are totally fine with coming in and doing eight hours. Doing what they do really well, but this is their focus. This is their lane they are not interested in going to the next road. They are interested in staying in their lane and having that stability. And I think acknowledging that everybody's different and having empathy for people like that is, is great. Right? It's, it is really, teams have to come from all different types of skills and motivations and I think once you can figure out what everyone's, pieces in the puzzle, it makes a huge difference.

Megan 30:17

That's so true. Not everyone wants to climb the ladder and they're happy coming in and doing their job and that being it and going home and leaving it behind. And so I think that's a really good point. And it can be hard, it can be hard to accept that in each other. And to, to your point, like that's where empathy comes in. But a business needs both kinds of people. If everyone's trying to get up the ladder, there's not a lot of stability and you start to lose things potentially like trust

Shemina 30:49

We all come from a place where, we want all types of different people, we need all types of skill sets. I think at the end of the day. Those people that are eternally loyal, you know, they bring so many skills to the table that sometimes it's hard for you not to understand why they're not ambitious'cause they could be doing more, or they could go to that next level. And I've been in meetings where people are like, well if they're not ambitious, we probably don't want them. And I totally disagree with that. I think there are people that are really comfortable in what they know, continue to excel at what they know and if they don't wanna do more, I think that's totally fine. And you don't have to look at them through your lens essentially.

Megan 31:28

a hundred percent. You alluded to it earlier but what do you think 15-year-old, 16-year-old Shemina would think about what you're doing now?

Shemina 31:39

I think she'd say it's pretty kick ass. I look at things through my daughter's eyes and she'll tell people, oh, you know, my mom manages, a hundred people and she's super proud of it. So I get super proud when I see it through her eyes. I think I always knew, or I wanted to be a leader of a company and CEO, you know, would be really cool. I think that my 15-year-old self would not recognize how many different things have to happen for you to get in that role. Some of it is just, like you said, serendipity, luck. But a lot of it is preparation, hard work, learning to deal with a whole bunch of different types of people. Mm-hmm. And I would say, I think looking back, I think that person, that 15-year-old who was like, yeah, this is what I wanna do, just making polar bear commercials instead of running international payment company. That's all.

Megan 32:28

Yeah. And it's not like when we're young, we think it's a straight line, whether we're interested in that or not. We think it's like, oh, it's just this line climbing up and it's straightforward and it is totally not.

Shemina 32:42

No. And, and nor should it be. I guess that's the advice I would give, when you're in it, you think that moment is everything and I totally get it'cause I was in all those moments. Mm-hmm. And it's easy for me to say it now, but those moments are just little blips in time and it's that whole journey that's gonna get there and you're gonna go all over the place like we're talking about. But nothing is the end of the world. and you're just, you're constantly evolving and everything is changing as time goes on. Just with my kids being a little bit older, I have just that much more flexibility that I didn't have, say five years ago. And so that's even changed the realm of what I can do and what I wanna do going forward. I also really value my time way more than I ever did in my twenties. Now for me, I wanna be in bed. I might age myself, I wanna be in bed at a decent time. I have a certain amount of hours outside of my work time to, split between me being healthy, the kids activities, you know, social things with my friends. All, all of these things have a very small window, and so, my time now has become the barometer of value for me. It's, it is not about my career title, it's not about the money, it's not about any of that stuff anymore. It's really about the value is time for me.

Megan 33:57

I think that's really, I mean I heard a couple pieces of advice, but one of them is that journey, when you zoom way out and have hindsight, you can see how it looks maybe more of that straight line, but actually when you zoom in, it is very up and down. I think there's a meme from Adam Grant that's like that, and it is very up and down and. When you're at those little peaks or little troughs, it's just remembering this is just a moment and it's part of a bigger story and a bigger picture. But the other thing I heard too is just again about the journey and how your priorities in that journey evolve. And so when you're young, and I'm gonna speak for myself here, the time thing wasn't as important to me and I was happy to put in the extra hours at work and and maybe partly'cause lucky enough to work somewhere that I was having fun, I felt valued, you know? So then the effort feels worth it. But that, that evolves and changes, over time. So, you know, I think that's the other, to me, piece of advice in there of honoring where you are in both ways in terms of what your priorities are, but it's just a moment within a wider journey.

Shemina 35:22

Yeah, and I think it's really easy for us to forget that piece when we're in those moments because we may have started in a role where, things were very different and we may be in a different spot now. And I think it's okay to rewire yourself and have those tough conversations. And I was talking to somebody recently at our company. And I was saying how, when we adopted our son from Morocco and when we had to adopt him, I literally knew I had to be in Morocco for a period of time. And I was honestly in knots just trying to figure out how am I gonna do this and whatever. And literally my husband's like, just go ask if you can work from there. And this is pre COVID. And I'm like, there's no way. Nobody does this. There's no way no how. I did. And luckily for me, my boss was like, yeah we need you to work. We can't afford for you to be gone for six months, but if you can work from there and we can figure this out. Absolutely. And so, even two years when I was started in this role, I didn't have any of those needs and those needs evolved as I was in this role. And sometimes we have this story built in our own head that we can't evolve within the role. Like I, I said I was gonna do this, so therefore I'm gonna do this and I have to do this exactly the same way, in the same role. And I think that's something that I learned along the way is you can evolve within your role. You can set new expectations, you can, alter what your deliverables look like just by having some of those conversations as well. Yeah. I don't know that we're wired that way. I think sometimes somebody has to give us a good kick to, to realize that, we're good at what we do and you can ask to change the rules of engagement as it as you need.

Megan 37:07

That's amazing Giving ourselves permission to evolve in the role. And if you don't ask, the answer is no because you haven't even asked the question. And I think the flip side of that about evolution is also recognizing when you evolve, the role might've been giving you something before and it might've been a really great fit if it isn't willing to evolve with you, but you have to ask and do what you know, try to to make that change if it's not going to work. It's okay to then make a different decision and be like, this thing was amazing. It's not the right fit anymore and I'm gonna speak for myself again. That's sometimes the hardest thing to let go of, like, I had so much fulfillment from this. It was so fun. I still love the people, but the role itself maybe isn't the fit anymore. And I've evolved within it as far as I can.

Shemina 38:08

Absolutely. And I think. You're good at it. I think that's the piece that people also forget. You may be asking for something else or you may be changing or you may say it's time for me to move on. Like at the end of the day, and I'm speaking for you right now, is you were really good in your role and you were like, this is as far as I can go and this is as far as I can learn. And same thing with me. I felt like, before I went to go live in Alberta for the resort property, it was like, I don't see where I go from here. I don't see where, I'm gonna learn something more or I'm gonna love the people I'm working with that much more. It hit this plateau. Yeah. And it was like, okay, I have two choices. I can sit here and be that eight to five and hope for something to open up or I start to figure something else out for myself. And I think the other piece was, I think I am good at what I do there, and even with that, I'm not getting other opportunities. In fact, the role is kind of shrinking. From my perspective, shrinking. You know, I think to your point, it's just also about recognizing when it's okay to start looking for other things, and also widening the scope of what you're looking for. Because going back to what I said at the very beginning, a lot of what you learn is transferable.

Megan 39:19

Mm-hmm.

Shemina 39:21

A lot of what people should be looking for and are looking for now is the ability for people to grow in that role that it doesn't really matter what your background is, do you have the ability to take on, do you have the ability to work with people? Do you have the ability to analyze things? Do you have the ability to communicate effectively? Like those are all very general skills that can be applied across tons of different industries.

Megan 39:43

I think there's a misconception, and you touched on it before of people need to be specialists, but actually, well, for, a lot of us, that's not that exciting. Like the generalist being involved in a bunch of things is more fulfilling and more challenging. But on the other side, like businesses need generalists. And I think it's what you were saying too about like there are people who are gonna be ambitious and then there are gonna be people who are, happy with their role and they just work there eight to five and that's it. And you need both those kinds of people. A business also needs specialists and generalists.'cause the generals help tie it all together and. So many of those skills are the one are transferable. And actually I would argue a lot of specialist skills are quite transferable as well. But I think there's a misperception sometimes that we place ourselves usually, like I think the reality of the world isn't necessarily like this, that those skills are less valuable or

Shemina 40:46

mm-hmm.

Megan 40:47

It's hard to recognize that them as skills.

Shemina 40:51

I look at job descriptions and they can be pretty precise as to what they're looking for and you kinda can talk yourself out of them, right? You can say oh, well I don't really have all of this in-depth knowledge on, you know this system or this process. I know the system how it works with our overall strategy. I know how it works, in the realm of communicating with a whole bunch of different departments. I would talk myself out of applying for that role because I didn't have that in-depth knowledge of that system. And I think that's where that needs to change is that

Megan 41:22

mm-hmm.

Shemina 41:22

All of that can be acquired. And I think that's the crux of it. And I think that's a big, underlying theme of your podcast is, people get to very unexplained places in their career and the majority of the people are really impressive and they're very capable. They just have, an underlying set of skills that can be applied in a whole broad set of circumstances. And that's why I think this podcast is super interesting because it gives you that like, Hey, I've got a whole bunch of generalist skills, even if I'm a specialist, that I can apply if I was to go out of my specialty or to another company even. And I think that's the piece that. When you're in it, you don't really stop and take a step back and notice that you have a lot of underlying skills that are almost or as important, if not more important than a specialty that you're in.

Megan 42:12

Yeah, a hundred percent. So we've done like a lot of looking backwards. when you look forwards what's your vision for the future, for what's next? It could be very short term, it could be long term, it could be both.

Shemina 42:27

So I'm in the, been in this role for a year just over a year. And I like it and I enjoy what I'm doing, so I do wanna stay here. We've just scratched the surface and I think there's so much more, and I think the payment space and the technology space is moving at rapid pace and you add in AI and it's like. Mind blowing. Mm-hmm. So it's super exciting and it's super interesting. You know, if you ask me when I was, and even now, I'll say I'm on the Freedom 55 plan. I'd love to and when I say Freedom 55, I don't think I'm ever gonna retire fully. Like, I'd want my brain to, to still work, but ideally in the end, or in 10, 15, 20, whenever that happens. I would love to move away from like the day-to-day operations and have some more flexibility in my life. I love to golf. I wanna be around for my kids through high school. I had kids late, so being around for high school, being able to travel and just having that flexibility. But I also really like my brain going. So whether that's, sitting on a bunch of nonprofit boards, maybe for-profit boards. You know, being introduced to the private equity world, seeing how some of my skills could transfer within that world would also be interesting. But right now I'm just focused on really doing more or kind of keeping up with where the industry is right now.

Megan 43:47

That's amazing and it definitely is a very exciting time and a lot of transformation happening in the industry in North America right now. So yeah, definitely very exciting time and. Yeah, no shortage of new things to learn and opportunities to look into.

Shemina 44:06

Well, when your 11-year-old daughter is showing you new tricks and how she made an app, in 20 minutes it's holy crow. I have a lot to do to keep up with what's happening and I think that's the exciting part right now.

Megan 44:21

Yeah. Sounds exciting and a little bit scary.

Shemina 44:25

All at the same time. I think everything is, anything that's exciting has a little bit of fear associated to it for me.

Megan 44:31

Yeah. Yeah, that's true. Someone I used to work with said once, about an opportunity they had at work, for a different role. They're like, well, it scared me a little bit and that's how I knew it was the right one. So I think it's, if it's not a little bit scary, then there isn't that challenge

Shemina 44:49

the thrill.

Megan 44:50

We're

Shemina 44:50

all for the thrill, right?

Megan 44:52

Yeah. Like

Shemina 44:53

you're like, absolutely.

Megan 44:55

Yeah, for sure. Amazing. Thank you so much for sharing your journey, but even more than your journey, the amazing insights from your journey. And I always love an excuse to talk about things like being a generalist and the, virtues in that, but also, the importance of empathy and understanding the different needs of people on the team in terms of hiring, but also on how you manage the team and trying to remember to not look through our own lenses when we evaluate people so, thank you so much. I really, really appreciate it.

Shemina 45:38

Anytime. I love your podcast. I really do. It's so interesting to see how everybody has this weird, rollercoaster journey and how it literally isn't even like this. It's like all over the place. It's amazing.

Megan 45:52

Thank you. I think it's cool because even people who think they have a really straight line journey, actually, once you start talking about it. It's not like even people I know who have been in the same company for 20 years, once you actually start talking about the things they've navigated within that company, it's like, yeah, it wasn't, it's not a straight line for most people.

Shemina 46:15

No, I think there's so much value in that because I think right now there's so many people that are trying to find that straight line and are almost looking for permission to take a road that's a little bit outside of the norm. And I guess the last thing I'll say is I think empathy also starts with yourself. And, I think oftentimes we're so hard on ourselves and we feel like we have to have all the answers and be perfect in all of the things. And so sometimes it's just it's okay to sit in, I don't know, and we're gonna take a shot at this and we're gonna see how it goes and we'll figure it out.

Megan 46:49

That's. An amazing reminder because we speak to ourselves in a way that we would never speak to our friends or our coworkers or people on our team. So you're right. That's a really important place to start is with ourselves

Shemina 47:05

agreed.

47:08

It was so lovely to chat with Shemina about her career journey, and a few things that I am taking away from our conversation are first transferable skills. In the middle of a successful career in payments, Shemina took a major pivot into real estate development and hospitality where she learned how transferable her skills really were. She also credits this move for giving her new skills that helped her be ready for the COO and then the CEO role when she came back to payments. Second honour where you are. One thing I was struck by in Shemina's journey were the risks she took to honor where she was. The pivot outta payments was because she felt she had plateaued and wanted a new challenge. Her road back to payment started because she wanted to move back to Toronto as she started her family, and she took a junior role as temporary cover to re-familiarize herself and see if she truly wanted to be back and to afford herself the flexibility. From the outside these seemed like really risky decisions, but they paid off because she was honouring where she was in that time period. Third, empathy and understanding. Shemina spoke a lot about having empathy for people's different ambitions, their intentions, what might be going on in their lives, which is so important as a manager and a leader. And I love how she also brought it back at the end of our conversation about having empathy for yourself too. And I also think it's so important to role model that like Shemina does for her team and her mentor does for her. I also think this is where the power of having a personal board of directors or tribe comes in, especially for women. Lastly, Shemina's advice about not putting too much meaning into a single moment as it's just one in a longer journey is so true. As she says, you will always be evolving and everything is always changing. It's actually one of my inspirations for the podcast. We put so much pressure on each decision in our careers, but things don't happen in the straight line you hope them to. thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.