Rob Saltrese: Entrepreneurial Graft - Recruitment to AI

S4E5: Rob Saltrese shares his journey into entrepreneurship and what he's building now (and what he learned from facing a divorce and a business divorce at the same time).

Rob is Co-founder and COO at Lyra Labs. https://lyralabs.co/

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Transcript

0:00

Welcome to the Unexpected Career Podcast, where we share stories of real people and the twists and turns they have taken along their career journey. I am Megan Dunford, and as someone who found myself in the payments industry, largely by accident. I'm fascinated by people's careers unfold and how they've gotten to where they are today. It's also why I'm passionate about reducing the pressure on young people about going to university, what to take in school, and on getting that right first job. Today I am speaking with Rob Saltrese, founder and COO at Lyra Labs and co-founder of the Artemis Network.

Megan 0:38

Hi, Rob. How are you?

Rob 0:40

I'm good. Have you been? You okay?

Megan 0:41

Yeah, I'm alright. Well shall we jump in then?

Rob 0:46

Let's go fire away.

Megan 0:47

All right. I always start from the very beginning, when you were small, was there something that you thought you wanted to be when you grew up? How did you answer that question when you were small?

Rob 1:00

There was only one thing and that was a marine biologist. And ironically that had zero to do with biology, which I found quite a battle. I did okay, but it was hard. I was just fascinated by and still am the sea sharks in particular. I'm a huge, slightly obsessed with sharks, great white sharks. Anything in the sea scuba diving. So for me, I thought, well, if I can do my job doing something like that and then working with animals, wildlife, helping to, develop, save it, anything. You know, I think at one point I haven't told my parents I was gonna go and join Greenpeace'cause I hated whaling and things like that. And I'm like, well, I'll go and get on a rubber dingy. Why not be great?

Megan 1:41

Amazing. It's funny because I feel like marine biology is stereotypes not the right word, but it is one of those things lots of people thought they wanted to be, but as you said not knowing what it actually is. Like it's very heavy on the biology side. But you're the first person I've spoken to in the podcast so far who's actually had that as their response. Even though it feels like it is kind of a common theme, I haven't come across it. So that's pretty amazing.

Rob 2:09

I think it's just'cause it fits. Quite a few different things. There's not necessarily another job title for it. Right? Yeah. It fits in that world. I mean, my mom tried very hard to push me away from it. Kept saying it's all studying algae and all this, and which isn't actually true. And there's a bit of me that wishes I'd somehow tried to pursue it in some way, shape, or form, even if I wasn't so wildly academic and whatever else. But, plenty of people have got into the world of working with, animals, sea life, marine life and everything like that who maybe weren't but so passionate. I mean, it's about being passionate and ended up, that's when you tend to get good at things, isn't it?

Megan 2:42

Yeah, for sure. And there's sometimes alternative routes and or adjacent type of careers, but of course we don't know all the careers when we're young, so it's hard to know that there are other ways to, maybe pursue the bit of it. That's really interesting. So it sounds like you didn't pursue being a marine biologist. So what did you pursue? Did you go to university? What did you decide to take if you did, and how did you make that decision?

Rob 3:09

Yeah, went to university. I mean, to be honest, back in my day, I'll say our day, it was absolutely expected. Particularly as it was also felt like the only way to get ahead, you know, you had to go to university to give yourself a good chance of getting a job. I was also very lucky I went to some very good private schools my whole life. My dad had done well, even though he'd come from not a lot Liverpool and bombed out schools back in the war. But, we knew we needed to go. We knew give your foot ahead, you know, are surrounded by that kind of excellence in school. So it was always, and I wanted to go. I wanted to go and experience it. Geography was my one and only love and good subject. So what do you do? You pick the subject you're best at? Mm-hmm. Um, I didn't, unfortunately, as I said, I wasn't wildly academic. I did find A-G-C-S-E battle with a levels a little bit from just the mechanism of studying and even I was in a very good school. I wouldn't say we necessarily had the best teaching. They were very good at dealing with very bright kits, and if you couldn't get something, it was almost like you weren't paying attention or you were stupid or whatever else, which I battled with quite a bit. And it's interesting'cause my other half is a teacher, so I see all the ways that she does it. And I was like, why didn't this happen in our day? So I just missed out on going to Liverpool, which would've been my first home. It's where my dad was from and I really wanted to go. But I went to Leicester, had a wonderful time, but I did, ended up doing economic and social history with it and I've been quite good at history, so I did a combo degree.

Megan 4:28

What you were saying too about taking tests, standardized tests are really difficult for a lot of people, and you're right, especially back in our day, the learning methodology really only fit one type of learning style. So yeah, it can be a challenge and I think that obviously impacts our choices down the line. I think that's a really good thing that is changing, you know mentioning your partner and all the new methodologies they have. Hopefully that opens up scope for people to pursue things. So after the University of Leicester, what was your first job? How did you get into it? That first working experience post university.

Rob 5:13

Well, some of the needs must and they kind of just fit into, without going on about it. It's, I had a bit of a thing about studying. I did work very hard, but I say having been to that school where it was about Oxford and Cambridge and all the next kind of top four universities, that was it. Seeing people crying on the day they opened their A level results and they didn't get like four straight A's or something and they weren't sure if they were gonna get into Cambridge. I was like, look, get a grip, you're gonna do fine., I just missed out on a two one. I got a two, two at university. So again, I'm just not being daft, I thought. I am in a bit of a trickier situation here because without a two, one or upwards. I didn't really know what I wanted to do, but I knew that applying for graduate training programs would be great if you could get into a good business. But I didn't have that mark instantly. I mean, it was so old fashioned. You don't have a T one that didn't even look at your CV at all. So I was applying constantly. After I finished university, I happened to have so when I came back from university, my first actual job was driving doctors around. Over 24 hours a day, not literally for 24 hours a day, but through a 24 hour period. My friend had the job working for this local business that worked with the NHS and worked with gps and gps used to have to, and they still do now, but sent then had to do timeout evenings and weekends. I had to provide the uncover support, so I was in a little white Ford Fiesta with green ambulance sign on, and I could put a light on if I wanted to and go through any red light if I felt like it, or down a one way street, which I did use in Central London occasionally. So I did that just to make the grand old summer, five pounds an hour and had some phenomenal 12 hour shifts overnight being exhausted, especially over August Bank holiday weekend, which was the most heartbreaking thing.'cause I did it three nights in a row and in London. So all you saw was all the fun going on when you are Yeah. When you're working. So yeah, that wasn't a conscious decision. It was a won't work, go and get on with it. And, and did that. I then had a six week stint. My dad had been an entrepreneur in the last part of his working life and had bought a at the time it was new for them, but a big, hotel up in North Wales, which is where his family lived. So I went to work there with a friend of mine wasn't quite like being in the Shining, but it was a bit funny. We had only two living there. There was nothing there at night. And, we'd get cooked full by the head chef who was lovely and we just used to have fun. So, yeah, we used to work in every part because they didn't have enough staff, so they used to throw us in to do anything. And then I was still applying for work and just getting that constant. My parents were sending all the letters up. I was just getting rejection after rejection. You know, it's like I shell bp this business, this business, and then I got a chance. To go to Enterprise rental car, so everyone knows them now. They're the biggest rental car company in the world. But back then, not many people knew'em as much. They'd been around for a while in the uk. But I got a chance to go and do their management training. So you start and just work your way up. You do a bit of everything. So I started there in January 99, having graduated summer of 98. So I would say that was my first proper job and the route into it.

Megan 8:12

Amazing. I think there's, and maybe we'll get into it a little bit later in more detail, but it's always interesting those first few jobs of that balance of we just need a job and we don't even graduating school, you don't know what you wanna do. Just the experience and things you learn through that is I think always really fascinating. And then to get into a management training program, which is something maybe when you first graduated, you mentioned you didn't think you would have the grades for and maybe for some of those household names. That was the case. And it's fascinating for me as a Canadian. Because we don't have the same sort of grade system and view on grades. I think obviously grades matter. I don't think I was ever asked for my grades in a job interview ever in my life. So that, that's something you see in job descriptions here. Even, very senior job descriptions where clearly they would've been working for, five or 10 years, it'll still mention sometimes grades. And I'm like it really doesn't matter at this point. So I think that whole thing is just fascinating as an outsider to the system here. So you got into management training, which is, as you said, such a great opportunity.'cause you always get to do so many different things. Most of them are rotating roles and things like that. Based on that experience. How did that launch you into your role and thinking about what you do now, what's that journey from that management training at Enterprise to what you're doing now?

Rob 9:44

Well, the good thing, like you said, I think even just going back to that interview process they did have a lot of applicants. I don't quite know how I managed to get picked. Maybe they weren't quite so fussy on just grades and looked at things I'd done which maybe helped, but more importantly, I always knew that if I got in a room with people, then I could show them what I was all about. And I've done group interviews prior to that with different businesses and even people and even friends of mine who I knew were outstandingly clever, probably wouldn't come across in the same way. And it's just a different skill set and personality and your comm skills. And I always just knew, go and work hard, and we were always told that weren't, they don't moan, don't put your head above the parapet. Get on with it. Work hard. And it still applies today. I'm sure it's something we'll talk about later, but. If you do that you can impress people. And I did it in sport, I did it in everything else at my school and it worked. So you go, well, okay, great. I'm now gonna learn a bit of everything. It literally went from picking up cars, washing cars in my suit, literally washing them. We'd, we had other guys who were there working, cleaning and stuff, but they would, we'd all have to clean, have to help clean the office. But then you'd be working with clients, negotiating with clients, pick them up. We got a bit of everything of running an office because the next stage up from that would've been a deputy manager and then a manager. So you had to go your way through junior to senior in, I can't remember what we were called. Wasn't consultants, like management trainee, then you were a trainee and then assistant manager and up. So you had to learn everything including one of the big parts. And I enjoyed all that. It meant every day was genuinely different, which I don't actually think you get in many jobs. Truth be told, let's be fair. People say, oh, my days are varied. Rubbish, come on. Are they, they're not. You know, you grind out Monday to Friday,

Megan 11:22

especially entry level. It's often very repetitive.

Rob 11:26

Just go. And I think it even surprised me, you know, we talked about this, you and I before, but even at our age, it still doesn't matter how senior you get, you're doing a chunk of the same thing. So it was nice to be in and out different. offices I love driving. I got to drive a whole load of cool cars that I could never afford, and it's a really big ones, and then Vans and things like that. But one of the things that I knew I was good with people and just enjoyed speaking to people. I was confident, even if I didn't know what I was doing, and I'd have to turn around and ask questions and ask for help, but I'd get up and I'd greet customers. I'd be the first person to pick up the phone. Dad, their phone ring, picks it up. Just do it. Mm-hmm. It will help impress. And then everyone actually followed suit and then I'll talk about another piece, but one of the things we had to do was chase money that was owed, so accounts receivable. So they'd come down from group head office in London. Be sent out. And what Enterprise does, a lot of it works with insurance companies and big businesses. So it's not just day-to-day car rental, it's on insurance policies, et cetera. So I could be chasing 250 K from legal in general, or I'm going after this company and I absolutely loved it. Be polite. You work way round, you try and find the right person to speak to and then put on a bit of a smile and, see what you can do. Just be polite to them, see what you can get back. Or if it then got to it, it had to be, these things were often over 90 days, right? So it was in bad debt, which was causing real problem for the business. And they said at that point you can, do what you need to do, right? You can go relatively nuclear, but we will, and it's a huge company at that point. It's like we're gonna go after'em. I don't care how big this company is, so I used to try and use that and then be like, look, you don't wanna go down this path. We've also got a relationship. We'll end up pulling it and none of your customers will have courtesy cars or anything, which I'm sure you don't want. So I got really good at ticking these things off. So we used to have to do it for a couple of hours every week. So that was one thing. Quite enjoyed that. That went well. And then a lot of it was sales. We had to go and pitch new companies to see if we could, and this was just flat out, wasn't even cold calling. Here's donuts. Go and find businesses or garages and walk in and knock on the door. Like door to door sales. So what I would say then I picked up from that, obviously I like management, working with people I realized I could sell realistically. So those bits just all started to form the journey. So I did Enterprise for a year. I went traveling for nine months round the world. So I'd had enough of Enterprise. I knew I didn't wanna stay there long term. It wasn't quite the place for me. So bit of traveling came back and by that, so this was 2000, and I had three friends who'd spent between six and 12 months while I'd been away getting into recruitment and recruitment, I knew a bit about actually, my dad's best friend had set up one of the first ever headhunting companies in London back in the late seventies, early eighties. So, I started looking at that part when I came back I knew it was sales, I knew it was people facing, et cetera. Didn't know loads about it. Did a bit of research and then I went to a graduate recruitment company and again, talking about how you can manage yourself maybe versus your grades and your cv. We had to do an assessment day but I'd effectively been outta university for two years by that point, like a year of working, year of traveling and confidence picked up you a little bit sharper, but I remember in the room I was actually with a lot of people who got firsts and two ups and I was really surprised that they were there, but they obviously wanted a chance to get jobs as well. But they just didn't necessarily have the comp skills and the way of behaving. So you just work out, I dunno if anyone's ever, I'm sure a lot of people who might listen to this have done, I dunno if you've done one, but you just gotta play it smart. There's a way of answering questions, showing who you are, bring other people in. They did all these different things over about five hours, and then right at the end they go, right, we'll come back to you. If you'll sit here, we're all gonna go. And there's six or seven of them. In this room watching management and senior recruiters. And then they came back in about a minute, said, Rob, could we have a word? And the way she looked at me went, oh God, okay, they don't wanna work with me. I'm out. And they took me in a room and all of the consultants sat there and one of the big bosses, they're like, right, you're brilliant. And didn't do any more than that. They sat me down and said, right here's a paper calendar but they didn't explain anything to me. So I had no prep, nothing about any of these jobs. Here's the names, here's the location on a written out calendar.'cause people have barely got mobile phones. Then. Yeah, the next two weeks I did 14 interviews.

Megan 15:35

Wow.

Rob 15:35

So they were mixed between first, second, third, I got three or four offers. I think I got four offers. Two were in like media sales and I realized that I really wanted recruitment, so I turned them down, two recruitment ones and I took one. I was very lucky for a company called Harvey Nash. It was up in Mayfair, right by Barkley Square, which was just beautiful. And I remember going there thinking, okay, this is quite cool. And posh

Megan 15:57

and

Rob 15:57

nice and uh, and that was it. But I think again, it had just been. The questions I asked, being confident enough talking about what I'd learned, even from my travels, from my previous role and selling and communicating with people and client facing and pitching, say walking around with donuts and they were just like, yeah, okay that's the type of skill. And then they give you an opportunity saying, no, it's still, but it led me into that. That's what I think I got from school. But actually looking back, and I was actually telling someone about this the other day, I joined my. Latter private school at 13. I was the most junior layer there, but I ended up selling food and drink to all my classmates and kids around the school to undercut our tuck shop. So I was always into food. I just started making nicer and better rolls. So rather than plain butter or plain cheese, I was like, well, I'll do ham, cheese and pickle and I'll do ham cheese and cucumber and I'll do a tuna mayo one, and I'll take all these in with crisps and sell them. And I made some really good money. And actually I got pulled aside by my head of house, who was lovely. And actually I saw him very recently for a 30 year reunion and he remembered it and he laughed. He went, it's brilliant. It's amazingly enterprising. And I've heard they're very nice, but it's not going down enormously well in some respects, they're like, we admire you endeavor. That's why we want you in this type of school, but perhaps can you not? You know, we need the money. I was like, okay. So I think maybe if I look back at that, I had the. Sales thing.

Megan 17:21

A little bit of

Rob 17:22

entrepreneurship,

Megan 17:22

entrepreneurial spirit, for sure.

Rob 17:26

Yeah.

Megan 17:26

I think the other thing you were touching on is, and I think when you first graduate school, you don't realize this or when you're young in general, it can be hard to realize this, but when you went in to that recruitment assessment day, the experience you had. Of traveling, of doing the other jobs before was so valuable and things like traveling or doing kind of those first jobs that maybe aren't career track jobs, but just the work experience are so valuable for confidence, as you mentioned, but just having that next level of skills of being able to have a conversation, et cetera, because the skills it takes to be really good on a written test or to write an essay, those aren't the same as some of the skills you need to build a career, like communication, being able to have a conversation with people, negotiation sales, the things that you were bringing to the table that you maybe innately had a little bit, but you had also put them into practice and learned some of those skills and, built that confidence. So I think that's super important of, trying to sometimes just get out there and get some experience and it doesn't always have to be work experience like traveling and things like that are extremely valuable too.

Rob 18:49

No, they are. I mean, I think all that stuff makes an enormous difference and it just started to build a bit more confidence in me that I had those things'cause as I say, I knew I wasn't necessarily wildly academic, but I thought, I know you can still do well in life. It's not about being academic per se. You know, that helps. But it is not the be all and end all right. People hire people. They don't hire your ability to go well. Brilliant. I wrote an amazing essay in history and English and economics. Great shows a certain level of acumen, but it's not about the doing, but I think you're right. I had that school would've helped anyway'cause it just taught us to strive to be the best. And people have even asked me what's the difference between, I had some friends who went to some good schools that were state schools. My other half moved into a private school here. She'd said she'd never do it. It was always gonna be teacher in a state school of some description. And I said, look, it's still good kids, right? You won't have as much of the problems or the abuse or the crap you have to deal with on a day-today basis. You might have some more entitlements from another angle maybe parents, but they'll all be on it. I said, you watch, you'll get in there and you realize there's a drive and the culture, like we had to be the best. Was it? It was beyond aim for the stars. It was do this and manners and effort. And I used to have Saturday school for the first three years, so I only went when I got to do my kind of a level. So I was used to doing six days a week and it was relentless. But that really helped the being relentless knowing what you had to do. If someone asked you to do something, you got it. You didn't question it, you didn't do anything else. Which is some of the big things I think that private schools do enable kids to have and teach you that other area that you don't necessarily get. It's not just the education piece'cause it's wonderful teachers and all sorts of schools. It's those bits. It's really about facilities and the stuff it gives you access to and that kind of push because then, one of my jobs in the summer was working in a metal factory in northwest London, which was a fricking work, really boring. They're at absolute crack of dawn, but I worked harder than everyone else because I didn't wanna be bored. Even the guys there were all, they're lovely bless them, but they were all, a lot of them were west African or West Indian. Really nice. But that was their job, right? I'm coming in to do this as a make some money, but I couldn't help working fast.

Megan 20:51

Mm-hmm. And

Rob 20:52

they were all going like, slow down. Just like, well, it's boring. Like we can, we kind of keep busy. But, sorry. Point being is that, I think then as you say, going for that very first job at Enterprise. And then they looked at, well, he done that. He's worked, I did work six days a week at Enterprise as well. That was amazing. So never seemed to get rid of it six days a week doing hard jobs. It just teaches you go in and just get stuff done. And it's the biggest thing now I even say to my kids or you know, youngsters going through interview process because they don't have it in the quite the same way. I don't think they've not got it. They just haven't seen it. It's been a slightly different world. I think people have grown up in the last 10 years, so. Mm-hmm. Or even pivoting later in life. Right. You know, I've talked about this before and we have a lot of the wonderful women in Artemis who are pivoting and doing different things and changing. It's more like, do you think you've got a set of skills? Not have you done it before?

Megan 21:42

Yeah. A hundred percent skills are transferable, no matter what you're doing, you had to do it for the first time at some point. There's always a first time and it's the skills that allowed you to do that. So they are transferable and allow you to pivot. And I think that's the other thing of there's a balance of not being boxed in, but also knowing where you wanna go. And I think sometimes we get stuck in that place of, I've always done this before and it is the easier route. And so then we don't even really think about where we want to go. But if you take that time to think about it. It actually makes the path so much clearer and easier to transfer the skills. And it's something you were saying too about when you did that assessment day of, you end up having a lot of offers and opportunities outta that, but you were pretty clear where you wanted to go and you knew you wanted to go down the recruitment route rather than the media sales route. Which is such a helpful place to be. And again, that experience helps you be in the position of I think this is the path I wanna try and go down.

Rob 22:51

Yeah, exactly. And you know, but it's also youngsters now and none of us do, no one knows how many different types of jobs are available. It's insane. And I don't think most adults would. I just happened to have worked in an industry where it's always opened my eyes, so I'm always knowing and learning more and I think just be prepared to see something but also half narrow it down and give it a go, even if you're not ultimately Sure. I didn't know incredible amounts about it, but the it's good. It's a good job. You can earn fantastic money if you do well it's a lot of graft. I went, well, I can graft. I think I can do this. I think I can sell. I like dealing with people, the hard selling piece is gonna be hard, but. If that's what it, you know, it gives you, and even things like, joking aside, being in Mayfair, seeing the people, even just the suits and what they did and you know, think, well it wasn't about making money, it was about doing well to know that if I did quite well, I might be able to have some sort of good life.'cause I wasn't the academic who's gonna go down law into consultancies, into medicine where you can equally make very good money. So I thought, well, I've gotta do something else that might be a bit more grafting and horrific, but. I still might be able to get there.

Megan 23:57

Yeah, and you touched on you just make the best decision you can with the information you have, so you know, there was something appealing about that. But you don't know until you get into recruitment if that's actually, if you like it, but you can never know until you try it and you just make that decision and best case you love it. Worst case you don't. Then you just make another decision. We always are only making the decisions with the information we have. You can't know all the jobs in the world. And even if there was a way to know all of the jobs in the world, you can't know if you're gonna like them until you do them

Rob 24:35

No entirely. And it can be the right thing and it might end up not being the right thing. Right. But it's no different to friends and relationships. I mean, marriages, you just go in with the best will in the world, just

Megan 24:46

exactly.

Rob 24:47

Give it a go and then make a decision on if it's working for you. And none of them, however big and severe it may seem, are ever as drastic, ever. I mean, I think it's the one thing you hear anybody talk about in life, and particularly if we hear another podcast or people you read about in the papers and tv, the ones who've done things or had these mad and changing careers is simply, you don't know. But don't be afraid. If you get to a point, it could be at 25, 35, 55, 60, you wanna change? Whatever it is in your life, you can still do it. Harder things have been done than whatever you're about to do.

Megan 25:20

And they've all been okay. Yeah. And there are very few decisions in life that are truly life or death or that you can't come back from. And career decisions particularly are not in that category. So we take a little bit of a leap of faith sometimes, and then you just keep going.

Rob 25:40

So Exactly. I think part of it is taken away is be brave, but it is not the end of the world. Even if you hate it in two months. Honestly, like you just said, it's not really that big a deal really.

Megan 25:51

Exactly.

Rob 25:51

You can, you can move on.

Megan 25:54

Yeah. And you gain, again, worst case, it might be, you might hate it in two months, but you actually gain so much from knowing that and knowing what you don't like is just as valuable of knowing what you love and what you're passionate about.

Rob 26:09

Absolutely.

Megan 26:11

So maybe you can tell me a little bit about what you're doing now and how that came to be.

Rob 26:19

There was a big 25 year stint in between in the recruitment world. So that company that I mentioned, Harvey Nash, I worked for them for three years. But I left at 26, so probably a little bit brave, a little bit too green around the ears. Everyone says, when is the right time? And I always say that there's never seemingly a right time. But so I was lucky. My dad had been an entrepreneur as well in the latter part of his life, and he said, look, you're a perfect age. If it goes wrong, it goes wrong. As long as you're happy to go and get, say this without any disrespect. But if you wanna go and work in a petrol station at the middle of the night, or you're happy to do something for five pounds an hour, again, this doesn't work. And you're prepared to put in the graft as long as you accept those two things and actually said, the likelihood is it will fail. So all these three things, as long as you're happy to do it, go and do it. But I didn't have commitments per se, and when I came up with the idea, I didn't have a girlfriend, didn't have a house, I was renting, no kids. So off we went. We started that business and you know, hook and by crook. We managed to make it work. Two of us started it, third one joined, three of us built it. We had it for 17 years. We grew to about 30 plus people, six and a half million. We were doing okay. Nearly got bought out twice, once by James Kant's group, and I'm glad we backed away from that because that would've been a story in itself. And then the last one didn't go through at the very last minute. But I'll come to it.'cause it's a bit of a relevant point. We would've probably made 6 million, six and a half million from selling it. So not, silly amounts, but between two of us at the time, myself and my ex-partner, would've been brilliant, right? And off and running in life. And we would've only been like late thirties going, okay, we've got plenty of time left. So did that. But you know, one of the candid things is unfortunately I went from that point 5 years later to a very unsexy exit because fortunately I got divorced from one of the other founders. And then in looking to buy out, we actually still get on. But my other business partner at the time. We were looking to buy out, we thought we had it all. Agreed. He pulled the plug on it at the very last minute and didn't agree with the valuation. Ironically, the valuation that he came up with, which I thought was quite interesting'cause I stayed out the way'cause I didn't wanna screw anybody over. I was like, oh, whatever you guys agree, I'll be happy with it. So yeah, that all fell apart and then suddenly this guy who's supposed to be my friend for many years, who'd been best man at my wedding, just turned out to be someone entirely different. So then we had a bit of a. Tugging to and fro for about a year. Then I agreed. I thought, you know what? I just had this other moment of going, well, I'm 39, I'm a single dad. Maybe I should just start life part B. That was part A. Everyone has a part B, go and do part B. So I did, and then I carried on with recruitment for sort of another three or so four years. So between 2020. So that was also a wonderful time to leave. Planned it in 19 20 19, agreed to leave in summer 2020. Of course, COVID has kicked in. No one in the world is hiring in recruitment. I was like, oh, brilliant. Not made that much money out of it compared to what I could have done from the years before. So equally so you can put in all this effort and time and like your life's work into a company. That looked like it was gonna make you some really good money and then made you peanuts comparatively. Mm-hmm. You know, you kind of have to start again. And then as you know, about this time last year pivoted into building what is this business Lyra, which is an AI adoption business. It's mixed of high end exec education. So for board members, non-exec directors and C-Suite around the future and how to think about and understanding ai, proper AI adoption. We help organizations bring in the right usage of AI to try and actually add value to their business, to reach their business goals. And we are building a product which will help C-Suite and management and boards understand if their AI investment is working. But it's all right interacting with humans and the employees. Because we're all about augmenting staff, but, so that's been a real pivot. But I was lucky, I had friends in the AI space. Proper technologist, very senior at like KPMG, PwC, IBM, some who built their own companies. So I'd learn of them for about 10 years and they'd given me the passion for what I would call traditional ai. Obviously Gen AI then has had a boom in the last three or four years as everybody knows. And it's, listen, it's just gonna be ubiquitous. So it was a case of I really wanted to do something in this space. I knew it was fascinating. Yeah, I had to roll up my sleeves. But I guess by being a good networker, meeting people, my recruitment hat on building communities, I knew a couple of people we started talking, they are experts in the space, like a chief AI officer and a chief product officer that they've got the, some set of skills. I built businesses and know how to bring people in. So we've come together but kinda had to start again. Really this is effectively the third business since 2020 and in a completely different environment. So I'm having to learn technology, the right conversations, the right businesses, how you approach it. So yeah, it's been been a fair old pivot, but also at the same time, it's just using a lot of the skills and things I've done.

Megan 31:02

That's quite exciting. Completely as you said, completely new industry, but in a way, very adjacent to what you were doing before. Because there is something, I've not worked in recruitment, so this is maybe as an outsider's perspective, but certainly having worked with recruiters and on both sides of the table, there's something in recruitment that is very much about education and how you bring the right people in. And this is, to me sounds similar, but it's also it's not just people now it's ai and how is that coming into the business and using it correctly and making sure the education's there and all of that. I don't know if that's a fair assessment, but that's a connection.

Rob 31:49

I would agree. I think you're spot on. I mean, really. And I think there are many people that will have underplayed or not think a lot of recruiters, unfortunately, I've been in the industry long enough and got thick enough skin. If you've worked it. I know people have tried it even at an older age or they've started a recruitment company and they had another company on the side and gone it's impossible. It is a far harder job than anyone realizes'cause awful lot of people just think we have jobs and we send CVs forward. For one, you don't just get the jobs unless you go and physically pitch companies. And they expect you to do a lot of that every day. Picking up the phone, it's very rack, very hard. You gotta have a good sales pitch and then get given an opportunity. Then you are talking about headhunting and finding the right candidates to match another human's requirements. Forget the job description. You've got to match, well, what does Megan want? And Megan might want something different to her colleague, but it could be the same role in the same interview process. Yeah there's a lot of skill and nuance, but quite frankly, luck, right? Just knowing that everybody gets on together and then the right offer is presented and then that person accepts it and it all goes through. There's so much nuance to the process. Way beyond. All I'm now doing is understanding ai, which is relatively complex, and then how humans interact with it. So it's still a sense of. It's, I was gonna say it's not easier, but the tech, the good people don't understand the tech so well because it's still very new. Mm-hmm. But humans to humans was impossible. You know, I could tell personalities, I could have a gauge. And I think the more you gauge people wasn't necessarily about matching. Always the ultimate job spec, ultimate cv.'cause what can a job spec mean and what does a CV mean really? Yeah. You can write anything with a piece of paper. Knowing that part. And that is juggling. That's really the art I think of any selling, right? But particularly bringing people together. So now I've gotta explain what the technology can do, which is sort of new and people don't understand. But rather than going, God, I've gotta hope, multiple personalities of which I have zero control over. I can do everything in the world and it can still not work out. Whereas here, yeah, there's a little bit, I'd say there's a little bit more control just because it definitely, yeah, there's

Megan 33:50

people are only on one side of the equation instead of both sides.

Rob 33:54

No, but then we have this mysterious new technology that's not quite as simple as, here's a new CRM, here's HubSpot. Here's a new phone system. Yes. Now we're going to use Salesforce, which are much, dare I say, easier to sell realistically, because they are black and white. This is what it does. This is what we do. People go through a process, they'll decide whether they like it and can afford it or not, whether it's right for their business. We're talking about an amalgamation of, aI is just a word. It's like electricity and a million things with it, and that's what AI can do, especially gen ai. So yes, complexities to explain, but it still, it links and it just played to all my strengths of selling, being a CEO and a COO, building something from scratch. Going back to my point about really having the graft and getting on with it, I mean, it is, mm-hmm. Incredibly hard. Starting a company from zero, having an idea is one thing. Set it all up and go, oh great, we're gonna out to big wide world and people, these things on LinkedIn. We've started a company, okay, now go and sell it and make it work and retain customers and grow and deal with all the complexities along the way.'cause that is, that's the bit that then impacts all your own thinking and I guess even like your mental health as to how you feel about life. You know, the said this to friends who started in the last few years, and anyone in Artemis when they start, I say, look, the thing you're gonna have to deal with most is how it makes you feel as an individual because it's mm-hmm. Especially when you've got older and you've got used to being good at your job and senior, it could be pretty crippling, I have to say.

Megan 35:19

You have to suddenly wear so many hats and to your point of you get quite used to being good at your job and to start a business, you have to wear so many hats. You might not have done some of these things before, and so there's a learning curve, but even if you've done a lot of the things before, to do all of them, to be the only one responsible for all of them. That's its own learning curve. And I'm not an entrepreneur, but I know lots of entrepreneurs and I think especially in the beginning, it's. Can be very lonely'cause it is all on you. You're often the only person or a very small group of you who's trying to get something off the ground and that's incredibly hard.

Rob 36:04

Mm. Oh yeah. Stressful beyond words, how it impacts your life and even your friends don't quite understand or they get bit older and they go, are you okay? Rather than, oh, how's it's, are you all right? Is actually mm-hmm. Particularly now, with the, thankfully mental health has become far more of a. A key thing in people's lives and we need to be aware of it. But yeah, it's it's definitely tricky. That can be enormously rewarding, but year one is always a real slog. Yeah, we're getting towards the end of year one, so I'm hoping the slog starts to then pay the rewards. Fingers crossed

Megan 36:36

light at the end of the tunnel, hopefully. So when you look back at this journey started in a management training program, did some traveling, found your way into recruitment, and then have built businesses first in recruitment and now with ai. What do you think are some of the common threads? And I think we did touch on some of them, but when you look back and have the hindsight, what do you see are the common threads that have carried you throughout that journey?

Rob 37:09

I think it's more just traits that I had in myself and I realized then I had to. Push and utilize, which I think everyone does, right? You know, we see stories of people who survive the most incredible scenarios. They can be lost at sea for God knows how long or stuck in between a rock in the desert or an a mountain. Like how do people have that mental and physical fortitude to come out the other side? And it really just relates to those couple of words. So I think if I look back, even from the very first job of. Ridiculous hours and six days a week, all of it was one. Be resilient, work hard, and you have to have the energy to keep going. Always. You've got to be able to be like undefeated. You've gotta get up and go again and to, not really to quote Mr. Rocky Balboa from the last film when he does the famous chat to his son, it's not about how hard you get hit'cause you will get hit. It's about how many times you can get back up. Joking. Aside. Aside, that's an incredibly valuable and relevant point because yeah, you will, you'll take little knocks, big knocks, and you will have seen this yourself, right? We've all been through things as you get older, it just happens. So that will, I would say, is an absolute, you've gotta be able to do those things, work hard, get on with it. You have to have slopey shoulders. You have to try and be out, wake up the next day and forget the day before, no matter how bad it was.'cause that will only just lead to spiraling impact. Being super positive, you've gotta be relentlessly positive, which I always was, even as a kid, my friends joke and think, I've got smiling syndrome, I've got extra I can't even remember what it is, a genetic term, but there's, just spiked with it. They're like, you always just have this thing. So whatever those bits were in me, I think has allowed me to kind of shine through. And then you've just gotta be able to pivot. You've gotta listen and listen. Talk to people, listen. Mm-hmm. Active listening. Take things on board, but not be afraid to, and as you say, when you then get lonely, where can you look for help? Where can you look for support? You've gotta go and do things about the situations in front of you. So whatever they may be big or small, take action. And I think those have been a common thread even from, latter years in school when I found it really hard and quite isolating and pretty tricky. But how do you, that taught me resilience in myself and how to put on an act and how to keep going and how to do things because in some respects I was quite far behind back then, you know, and I'd say actually 16 17, it was some of the hardest parts. And then I've had chunks in life, you know, over time. So I'd probably say those.

Megan 39:37

Yeah, resilience is so important and that picking yourself up and continuing to go is so important, and you definitely see that in your journey. So you mentioned 16, 17-year-old you, and that was one of the hardest, harder points in your life. What do you think that version of you would think about where you are now and what you're doing today?

Rob 39:59

You know, it's funny'cause you mentioned this to me the other day, so I've been pondering and actually it didn't take me long. I'd be really proud I think, to be honest with you because, you know, I like we, I'm trying to think how many people we had in our year, but you know, if I'm talking, X number of percent went to Oxford and Cambridge and all I knew was about being best grades or the best at sport. I was pretty good at sport and I played in first and second team, but the other part I was right at the bottom. So when you're there staring down the barrel of that gun going what the hell am I gonna do then knowing that I've come through this journey and all the things I've done to land here. Yeah, I guess I'd look at myself and go, oh, well done. And you deep down knew you could do something, but it was just a bit more fear and nervousness then, because I hadn't experienced the world outside of education. So, yeah.

Megan 40:49

Amazing. Yeah. Definitely should be proud of yourself. Is there like a piece of advice you wish you could go back, whether it's to that, version of you or another version of you that's in a hard space and is there a piece of advice that you wish you could go back and give yourself? At one of those hard times? Or actually even sometimes advice is most useful when we think we're on top.

Rob 41:09

Oh, oh, definitely. I'd definitely start at that age for sure 16, 17 and say, these are the things that are achievable, without necessarily knowing you're gonna get there. If you could go back and say you can. Mm-hmm. And there's every chance you will, that would be kind of a nice thing to hear. I was never one, even when the business of my previous business was doing really well and. Even when it looked like we might get bought out, I was still just sat there going, stop thinking about it. You can't think about it because it probably won't happen. Prepare for the worst, but you kind of can't help things. But even then, I'd say, knowing that things will change, I'd be able to go back to me in my early, mid thirties. Tell myself, you can get through different things that probably will be coming and then mm-hmm. I think. Probably I was able to handle, because I went through a business divorce and a divorce at the same time. It's a lot. And being a single dad, and it was just, and I remember speaking to different people and my dad was like, Jesus, you okay? Like I can't, there's only certain amount of things I can do. You know, parents just want to help you. Mm-hmm. I was like, dad, look, I've had a great life. Really. I've had everything you could ever want. Everyone has something. I said, unfortunately, my something is now, and this is. There might be more, but this is a big one and this has hit the same time. I already knew that you can get through anything, but I think even if I could go back to 37, 38-year old me and say, you'll come out, you'll be surprised and in the business divorce, and you'll be surprised at what you may end up doing. I'd quite like to do that'cause that, late thirties, you still think, well, I'm quite an adult by them. I'm a dad. But I think you always need that go back and, just be able to reassure yourself a little bit. Yeah.

Megan 42:45

That you'll come out the other side for sure.

Rob 42:49

Yeah, absolutely. But keep chasing, there's a, God, it's terrible. I'm making loads of quotes, but again, the dear old, I dunno if you ever saw it, but Matthew McConaughey, when he won his Oscar did a brilliant for Dallas Buyers Club, did a brilliant speech, and one of his parts was about always having something to chase. And it was always him. In 10 years. Mm-hmm. So you'd never get there. And he is like, that's fine because if it pushes me to keep pushing to be a better version of me, and then when I get to forty, I'm not even close to where I thought I was gonna be. It kind of helps keep you quite sane and grounded. So I quite like that. I always take that bit and I've read his book, green Lights, it's always just have that thing, keep chasing, keep going, never think you're done, but never think it's over at the same time.

Megan 43:34

That's great advice, and I heard something sort of similar into a podcast. I think I was listening to Amy Puller's podcast. I can't remember which guest said it, but something to the effect of you plan for the horizon so you can only plan for as far as you see. So plan that far. And then when you get there, then you plan again. Like you just keep going. There is no real endpoint. Perfection doesn't exist, but find something that you can see and aim for and go for it. And then you keep going to the next thing after. I think that's really really powerful and also a good reminder and I think I get caught up in this sometimes of it seems impossible, so sometimes you can get a bit down of like why start? But that's not the point. The end point isn't the point. It's the having something to run towards and you keep evaluating as new paths or things come up, but just keep going forward.

Rob 44:37

It's the, it's the journey, right? Everyone says, enjoy the journey. You know, I was speaking to a friend yesterday met him relatively recently, and, only in his late thirties. He was a week away. He got diagnosed with, he had stage three, but he was about a week away of being effectively given a stage four cancer diagnosis. Wow. Which is pretty much unfortunately there'll be some sort of end of life management for between now and whenever that may be. And he got over it and he was running a recruitment company and he was billing like a million pounds a year himself. I mean, he was absolutely phenomenal. One of a true kind of unique bunch. But now he was just talking to me about he's reframed life and how he looks at things and how he lives. And, he's from a lovely Indian family, but they were quite. Talented, they've done well. And you know, we're just assumed that he had loads of savings and things like that because he'd done very well. But he is like, mom, I'm just gonna live. She went, good. Go and live because you don't know what's around the corner. So I think enjoy the journey. Don't beat yourself up too hard, but do have that horizon in mind because I don't think people really in life truly believe in that horizon and where they might get to. Mm-hmm. And listen, not everyone's gonna really push. I appreciate this is only, there's only gonna be certain people that really go for it in life and go as far and as hard as they can go. But everyone will go their own journey. But do make sure you enjoy it, whatever version that is, because if you don't, but do have something to strive for. Because if you don't, you'll just get lackadaisical and things don't happen and you will look back probably with some form of, might be regret. It might not be quite so far, but, and that's what I think is just live for the now. I mean, it kills your bank balance. Quite frankly. I'm terrible at saving at times, but you live in the here and out and no one knows what's gonna happen. So I think if you do that, it makes a big difference to you.

Megan 46:29

A hundred percent. And as you said, that looks different for different people. But everyone has those things. Whether it's like, what I strive for is just to have a life where I can be in my garden every day or, actually, I want to be continually growing and proving myself or whatever it is. Just have that horizon that you're. Building your life around and going on that journey.

Rob 46:57

A hundred percent. Just go for it. Really go for it. As you say, it could be the smallest thing that is your want, and that's fine but you still go for it. And this is the thing my only thing with I think how the world has been, and particularly things like that you add in phones and social media and how people see the world and we've got so many amazing, talented, bright youngsters. We probably had some of the more brutal seventies and eighties things harder come our way, which, were probably good in many ways, a bit harder. I mean, I talk to my kids, I'm like, Jesus, really? And I was like, we could get the slipper and a cane at my school's in the eighties. So that was just normal to me. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it was there. But they want to, you know, Simon Sinek said it years ago. He said, it's unfortunate. They're so bright and intelligent. They've still got everything in their locker, but they're expecting everything and wanna be at the top of the mountain now. He said, you've gotta go on the journey. You can't leap to the top of the mountain, you know? But the problem is, they'll see the odd youngster who either becomes internet famous or they build a business very young and everything else, and go, oh, Zuckerberg did this and these are one in an absolute blue moon. Exactly. You have to go and unfortunately put in the hard yards. But then they also have fear because even things like COVID and everything else has put a lot of blocker and that they can't do certain things or they're not prepared to, they're too nervous to, some of it isn't prepared to I think unfortunately, but some are just too nervous to even like, pick up the phone or go and do something, or, people always said to me, oh, you know, I applied for this job, or I did this. Like, if you called them or have you called a recruitment company to help you with a job of you. Rung up that restaurant to make it, but you know, anything and people just avoid it. Yeah. And that's the bit I'm referring to in everything is don't avoid those things. If you do them a, it makes you feel intangibly better. You develop a whole load of confidence and an extra kind of skillset underneath. But equally, for any part of life or people you're gonna work with or businesses or partners, you're gonna be favored. People look on you in a different light.

Megan 48:50

Yeah. I think it's like every coin has two sides. And so the mental health conversation is largely extremely positive. I think the dark side of it is sometimes that becomes the reason people won't do those things of, oh, I have anxiety, which is a legitimate mental health issue, but not everyone actually has it. And I'm gonna use myself an example here. I get extremely anxious about having to pick up the phone as an introvert, having to pick up the phone is my worst nightmare. I still don't like it. I like that you can book things online. That's great. But I did have a summer job once where they ran outta things for me to do.'cause the thing I was hired for was like entering things in a data base, which I finished in half the time they thought I would. And so they just were giving me random things and I was asked to update an executive's Rolodex when it was literally like cards and a little thing, and so I had to call every number in the Rolodex to make sure that person still worked there, that they had the right contact details, like had their extension changed, et cetera, spent two days just at work sweating. But I did it. And I have that knowledge that I know if I have to, I can. Will I choose the other option of booking online? Yes, I would prefer to do that, but I know I can do it because I kind of was forced to do it. And that is something that is sort of missing I think today.

Rob 50:20

There's less and forcing is the wrong word. It's someone more senior, an adult or someone in your job has told you to do it. So just get on a effing just do it. Do it. Yeah. You, you don't really have a right to question. I go, well, that's gonna make me feel a bit No you, no, no, no, no, no, no. And I'm constantly having this thing. My eldest is 17, so she's now looking at university applications and stuff ready for the end of the year, but it's bit, I try and teach her if we're going out or if we're on holidays. You go and ask that you go and do that, but don't love it. And her younger sister will. But then she's a bit longer. But I know it's stuff that is actually useful. It doesn't mean you have to go and do it all the time, but like you said, go through it, know you can. Because if you avoid things or use, and like you said, there is a slight unfortunate, whilst we have all the benefits now of mental health being so much more prevalent, we have all the different. Things from anxiety to depression to ADHD, different levels to ADD, to autism and everything else, which is brilliant. Some people are, even parents use them as an excuse for people. Mm-hmm. Unfortunately, you've, you have got these things. A lot of'em are really not actually too bad or crippling in any way, shape or form. Equally, you have no choice. That is what you've been given. It's whether you're tall short like you have this. It is not the end of the world. And actually people have been having it for centuries. We just didn't know what it was, you know? Yeah.

Megan 51:41

You have to learn coping skills, or maybe coping skills are the wrong word, but the tools that are going to work for you. And you mentioned it's no different than being like, say short. So yes, I can't reach the top shelf, so I have to stand on a chair. That's how I manage to do it. So there's, workarounds and tricks you have to learn I think accommodation is good and important, but it's like we also all have to work together. And so everyone has their preferences, but we also have to learn tools on how we work together and how we move forward and back to resilience of if you never do things that are hard or that you don't wanna do, actually, how do you learn resilience? Because it's the learning actually I did this really hard thing and I was okay. That is part of learning how to be resilient.

Rob 52:39

You have to and that's the thing. And I think they've missed some of that. And the language is different and what you can and can't do and even what you can and can't do at school, it's remarkable. So they're just not taught it, it's not their fault. It's what you experience. Right. So that's why for sure, it's incumbent for me upon parents, family members, and even where you end up working to try and drive some of this stuff. And like you say, it's also you gotta get on with every people gonna have different personalities. You can't just go, well, I don't like the way they speak, or I don't like this. Well, okay, you're in a team of 20, 2 of them are like that and they're your colleagues or one's your boss. So what are you gonna do? How do you adapt and how do you learn? And I think it's all those things that link into that change and adaptability and resilience piece for sure.

Megan 53:20

Yeah. Adaptability. That's a really good word and skill. So we've done a lot of, looking back on your journey, when you look forward, what's your vision? What are you excited about? What are you hopeful for? Oh, God. Vision build a great, could be short term, it could be long term, longer.

Rob 53:42

Well, I would love for this business to have a real impact for people.'cause as I said, we're a human-centric AI business, one. Whilst in this world of nerves and the things that are coming, quite frankly, is how can we make sure people are protected and looked after. Mm-hmm. And do it in the right way would be a big, I'd love to get that out of there, for sure. So would, if that works. And it happens, brilliant if the company's then been successful on the way, and more importantly, I can provide for my family and my kids. Actually afford to have this wedding that is supposed to be in the pipeline that we need to work out. So that would be short term vision would be get the business really up and running successful and get married. Longer term vision, build something that is really impactful for people and employees around the world. And maybe we can start taking it into education at the lower end as well. So start impacting kids.'cause I would love to be able to do that. And equally then with Artemis is, build that and just help as many women as possible through the journey of work and life and business and entrepreneurship and everything in between. I mean, using the group, it's family stuff, it's life stuff like, and can I make a 1% difference? Could we do something there that helps 1% of a certain number of, then, for me, I'd be delighted.

Megan 54:58

Amazing. And. it's an amazing, and dare I say, achievable vision. And certainly, you know, I'm a fan of Artemis and and the community that you've been part of building, so I'm definitely excited to see where that goes as well.

Rob 55:17

Thank you. Well, I appreciate all of your help and contribution there as well. Massively.'cause it is hugely valued and I still like the fact that we have a debate that, you think you're an introvert but can actually act like an extrovert at times. You've done that very well.

Megan 55:31

I like people. I like people, but I, yeah, I am an introvert.

Rob 55:34

It's a brilliant contradiction in itself'cause it is so you, and that it all comes out in a good way. But, yeah thank you. It's. Keeping them achievable, but a bit of a stretch. You've gotta have a stretch. Because if I'm not gonna, if I don't push and aim for something, as I say, it's been knocked into me since I was a kid so you have to go big or go home, basically.

Megan 55:53

Yeah. Love it. I'm excited to see where it all goes.

Rob 55:58

Thank you.

Megan 56:00

Thank you so much for giving me an over an hour now. I really appreciate it thank you for coming on.

Rob 56:09

My pleasure. Thank you for having me. It's been a, it's been a delight. A bit weird talking about yourself all the time, but it's still nice to reflect on the journey and share it. Yeah. And again, if it helps one person, give them something who listens to it for both of us, like that's the point, isn't it? We know that we've done something that's, yeah. Change one of the grains of sand in the world timer. Yeah. Somewhat.

Megan 56:29

Yes. I love that analogy. That's, I a hundred percent agree.

56:34

I had such a good conversation with Rob and some of the things I'm taking away are one, the value of early experiences. Right after graduating university, Rob did a combination of jobs, including a year in a management training program, and then spent some time traveling. These early experiences helped him identify what he liked doing, what he was good at, and develop the confidence that prepared him for the opportunity that was the start of a career in recruitment. Two hard work. Rob's story is full of examples of taking the difficult road, whether by choice or not, and putting in the hard work. And a bit of the love of the Challenge three, resilience. The other thing I heard a lot of in his journey is resilience. An ability to find a way around an obstacle or to pick himself up, whether it is the slog of starting a new company or when things did not go as expected, and unfortunately it's a skill you can only learn by going through the hard things and coming out the other side. Rob's advice to himself is along these lines and can be summed up beautifully by his words."Never think you're done, but never think it's over at the same time". That needs to be on an inspirational poster I think. thank you for listening to The Unexpected Career Podcast. Please follow, share, and rate on your favorite podcast provider. The Unexpected Career Podcast is produced, edited, and hosted by me, Megan Dunford. See you next week.